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How the Twilight Phenomenon Doesn't Signal the End of Cultural Civilization


And How It's Unlikely to Improve Female-Oriented Genre Fare / Dustin Rowles

Seriously Random Lists | November 24, 2009 | Comments (110)


In 1987, the New Kids on the Block came out of nowhere and dominated the airwaves for three years, infecting our female youth with poisonously awful melodies and dividing teenage girls into several camps, most notably Team Jordan, Team Joey, and Team Donnie. Between 1987 and 1989, you couldn’t walk down a hall in any high school in the nation without bumping into a girl wearing a New Kids T-shirt. Even the dateable pool of teenage boys at that time were often divided into their own groups, determined by which New Kid they most closely resembled. It’s hard to say that the New Kids phenomenon had much to do with the music — it was bland and manufactured — or even the dance moves, which were embarrassing on nearly every level. It had more to do with the scarcity of female-oriented choices in a pop-cultural landscape that was dominated by male-oriented products — in 1989, the top three movies at the box office were Batman, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and Lethal Weapon 2, whose audience makeup consisted largely of male moviegoers, obsessed with action, adventure, blood, and guns.

Ten years later, James Cameron unleashed Titanic, the largest grossing movie of all time, which was possible, in large part, because teenage girls kept returning to the theaters to sit through a technically dazzling but otherwise overwrought and dull three-hour movie. There were a multitude of reports, at the time, documenting the amount of times these mostly young women would revisit Titanic; it wasn’t unusual for a teenage girl to see Titanic anywhere between seven and ten times. The movie was the number one movie for nearly four months, made Leonardo DiCaprio one of the biggest movie stars of all time, and Titanic fever completely swept the nation. Take Titanic out of the picture, however, and the top movies at the box office were Air Force One, Saving Private Ryan, Armageddon, and The Lost World, a sequel to Jurassic Park, whose audiences were largely men and their often reluctant dates.

Cut to another decade later, and Twilight makes nearly $200 million at the box office in 2008, while its successor, New Moon put up a $140 million opening weekend, thanks to audiences comprised of mostly teenage girls, who again are divided into camps: Team Edward and Team Jacob. And again, I doubt you could travel the length of any high school in the nation without espying a Twilight T-shirt. And what were the biggest box office hits of the last two years outside of Twilight? Transformers, Iron Man, The Dark Knight and Indiana Jones.

The point here is twofold: 1) There’s an incredible dearth of pop-culture products aimed at the young female audience, and 2) the New Kids on the Block and Titanic didn’t forever ruin pop culture or end the world, so there’s no reason to believe that Twilight will, either. The sad reality is that it doesn’t take an incredible product to appeal to young teenage girls — they’re so starved for attention that any old love story that involves a good-looking guy sacrificing himself for a woman will probably put up big numbers at the box office. And Twilight is one of the few franchises that have ever been devoted to the female demographic. And yet, even after the examples that Titanic and Twilight have set, studios are no more inclined to make products aimed exclusively at this largely untapped market.

Twilight puts up huge numbers, so what happens? There are more movies about vampires and werewolves. But studios fail to understand that it wasn’t the vampires and werewolves that attracted that young female demographic. As I wrote in my review of New Moon, the movie is a “feminine love-triangle wish-fulfillment fantasy about being fought over by the scrawny, sensitive (and glittering) bad boy and the earnest but temperamental protector with chiseled abs. It’s about forbidden love and anticipation and bestial sex, the erotic pull between the sensual vampire and the ravenous werewolf.”

Teenage girls aren’t watching Twilight because of the heinous vampire/werewolf mythology — that’s boy’s stuff. They’re watching it because of the forbidden love, because a woman — a whiny, insufferable, self-obsessed woman — is being fought over by two men, just as they watched Titanic because an attractive man sacrificed his life for a woman. It isn’t about special effects; it isn’t about monsters; and it isn’t even about compelling story lines — it’s about a woman’s power to subjugate men. Romantic comedies are a dime a dozen, but the men in those movies don’t sacrifice themselves. They run to the airport at the end of a movie and give an impassioned speech. That’s a far cry from giving up your immortality for a woman you love.

I’m not making a value judgement here, nor am I defending the themes of Twilight (no one was harsher on New Moon than I). I’m merely suggesting that New Moon is no worse than two-hours plus of transforming robots battling each other or a nine hour quest involved hobbits doing battle. No one with a modicum of taste is particularly happy about New Moon putting up $140 million over the weekend, but it is nice to see the attention shifted away from acne-pocked, boner-ridden boys for a week, even if it is for something as weakly written and directed as the Twilight series. I just wish that the teenage female audiences could get their own Dark Knight, but until Hollywood starts really developing talented female genre directors, it’s not likely to happen soon.

And the truth is, even with the success of Twilight, studios aren’t rushing out to make another genre movie based on forbidden love. New Moon will end up being one of the biggest box-office hits of the year, but the marketplace will still be dictated by the success of Transformers, G.I. Joe and X-Men (Twilight after all, wasn’t even a planned success — no one expected a movie made on a $37 million budget to make nearly $200 million). Big-budget epic love stories driven by female characters are scarce, and I suspect that they will remain so. After all, Titanic didn’t turn the Hollywood marketplace on its head. Twilight won’t, either.

But the bigger point here is this: Twilight doesn’t signal an end to our cultural civilization anymore than Transformers does. With or without Twilight or Transformers, Paul Blart: Mall Cop is still going to make $200 million. Mainstream movie-going audiences aren’t that bright, and they don’t expect much, but it’s been that way for decades: The three top-grossing movies in 1986 and 1987, for instance, were Three Men and a Baby, Top Gun, and Crocodile Dundee, movies that many of us slavered over in our formative years, but have since come to our senses. Moreover, those New Kids and Titanic fans didn’t cause a cultural Armageddon, nor will Twilight fans. They’ll grow out of those Team Jacob T-Shirts one day soon, and in ten years time, they will look at pictures of themselves with a sort of proud embarrassment, the way 30-year-old women now look back on ribboned hair and jelly shoes.

Teenagers are dumb and easily swayed by peer pressure — I once wore hammer pants, double earrings, had stripes shaved in the side of my head, and rubber bands covering my arms — but it’s always been that way, and probably always will. As a movie critic, I loathe the Twilight series, but as an observer of the phenomenon, I don’t see anything new or out of the ordinary. I feel a small sense of pity for many of these girls who are swept up into the phenomenon by peer pressure and against their will, but it’s also those very girls who are likely to come out of this first, and who are less likely to contribute to the Paul Blart reboot, ten years hence. But I’m not particularly worried about those who have jumped head first into the phenomenon, either, not when I remind myself that I once loved Yahoo Serious and Young Einstein. They’ll grow out of it someday, but those teenage boys will grow into 35-year old men and will still keep returning to Transformer type movies unironically. The difference is: There won’t be a stigma attached.


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Comments

A reasoned response to your own review.

Wait, what?

Posted by: Kballs at November 23, 2009 3:06 PM

...

Is this going to be on the exam?

Posted by: Jerce at November 23, 2009 3:08 PM

Ten years later, James Cameron unleashed Titanic, the largest grossing movie of all time, which was possible, in large part, because teenage girls kept returning to the theaters to sit through a technically dazzling but otherwise overwrought and dull three-hour movie.

Titanic is an unusual movie, it's one of the only movies both over and underrated. While overwrought, it's well done in almost every regard, and those who sucked in it need no explanation. (It's you, Billy Zane and Celine Dion)

But any movie that has Kate Winslet's boobs automatically gets at least a 3 out of 4 star rating.

I'd fight you about the LotR dig, but you've just been so gun ho about it, it would be like denying a kid a cookie after they got home from school, more effort than it's worth.

But just because you don't think it's the end, Dustin, Twilight will still ruin civilization thanks to the Twilight dildo.

Posted by: George at November 23, 2009 3:11 PM

Seriously, man. You really had me worried with your short-sightedness on this whole Twilight thing. Nice form here. Again, just be grateful you had a son (first...?) Teenage boys still obsess about the same things we did when we were that age, and no sparkly-anything is usually involved.

Posted by: jason at November 23, 2009 3:15 PM

"I once wore hammer pants, double earrings, had stripes shaved in the side of my head, and rubber bands covering my arms"

Vanilla Ice = Dustin Rowles? That would explain a lot. A young, southern white kid, dressed like MC Hammer. Wasn't that part of a David Spade movie?

Posted by: logar at November 23, 2009 3:19 PM

Except with a job market offering zero jobs and a credit market offering zero chances to afford a home. Many of these Twihards will be wearing black and whacking off to adhesive wall-silhouettes in their parents bonus room well into their mid-forties.

Posted by: Colostomy Baggins at November 23, 2009 3:22 PM

But any movie that has Kate Winslet's boobs automatically gets at least a 3 out of 4 star rating.

-----------------------------------------------

Then The Reader gets 7 stars out of 4.

Posted by: John Denver's Wingman at November 23, 2009 3:25 PM

Every time I think I'm done with this site, y'all keep pulling me back in.

Wonderful piece, Rowles! I watched Twilight for the first time last night and while I expected to laugh in parts that weren't meant to be funny, I realized mostly I was bored. Bored by the pacing, bored by the dialog, bored by the subplots that never got resolved (two freakin' murders get shrugged off because the footprints went east GAHRGH!). And I couldn't help thinking though, 13-year-old me would have loved to have danced with a guy like that. Sweet slow dances with a dude in a messy, but suave suit were what I yearned for. So, I guess, it sort of made sense in theory, but not in execution.

My question for you though (and maybe it was answered in the New Moon comments, I'll have to check), is why it is that older women slober over this stuff completely unironicly. I mean... 56-year-old women are desperate to get into 17-year-old Taylor Lautner's pants. It's... disheartening. I feel like the appeal of teen fads (for me any way) was that parents clearly just didn't get "it." I feel like these mothers who take it upon themselves to "claim" Edward as their own (and be very serious about it), send a less than positive message to their daughters about obsession and boundaries.

But hey, lovely, lovely piece.

Posted by: Kayanne at November 23, 2009 3:31 PM

I'll have you know that there was never any such thing as a "Team Joey" or a "Team Donnie" or a "Team Jordan." I had no intention of sharing Joey Joe with any other 12-year old girls (and nobody else did, either). I would have seriously cut a bitch, after I scratched her eyes out and knocked her teeth in, if she had dared to get between me and my future husband.

Posted by: Kolby at November 23, 2009 3:31 PM

Could you do me a favor and have a chat like this with my husband in about 10 years when our girls enter teen land? He'll need a little perspective. That would be great, thanks.

Posted by: katy at November 23, 2009 3:34 PM

This article is totally right in Whorish Mouth's wheelhouse.

Jackass went and tailgated for hours in the rain last November to see the fuckin New Kids on the Geriatric Ward. Made her own T-shirts. Dug out all her giant, 8" buttons. Got on the fucking news cuz she's a giant Dork.

What? Me? No...I'm not jealous! Not me.

No I don't wish I could go to the Spectrum and see Masters Of The Universe on rollerskates agin like i did when i was 8 and buy a glow in the dark plastic He-Man sword that I promptly melted on a lightbulb tryin gto charge up the glow. No.

...not in the lest. Fuck you He-Man on rollerskates.

Posted by: PissBoy at November 23, 2009 3:37 PM

Congratulations, sir. You have slain, in one fell swoop, the Twilight Dread beast that you spent months artificially creating. Now, we bravely look on, to the distant shores of the blue kitty and accusations of parental basement dwelling for all who do not heed the call...

Posted by: laredo at November 23, 2009 3:38 PM

It should also be noted that that the same female demographic pretty much funds the shitty trash romance novel industry...but plain everyday open mouth breathers have forced us to endure 5 Dan Brown scat novels and two movies....gotta go "Into the Blue" is on AFN

Posted by: Nunzio910 at November 23, 2009 3:41 PM

I hate when you make sense.

But, just in case, I'm gonna carry a stun-gun when I go outside.

Posted by: figgy at November 23, 2009 3:44 PM

This makes the New Moon comment thread completely obsolete now, so I don't have to feel bad about not reading 500 comments about retards.

Posted by: Snath at November 23, 2009 4:03 PM

But just because you don't think it's the end, Dustin, Twilight will still ruin civilization thanks to the Twilight dildo

Yeah, unless I am severely mistaken, there was no sex toys based on those other examples. Well, maybe Megan Fox.

Your point is correct, but for the wrong reason. Twilight won't ruin civilization, but not because it won't have any lasting effect. Thing is, all those examples you offered just highlight how low the bar has sunk. Excusing Twilight as the estrogen version of Transformers just makes the whole damn thing even sadder.

You only reminded us that civilization is so fucked up already, there really won't be any noticeable difference if there is another addition to the shitpile. It is like saying "hey, we got this giant fucking asteroid coming to hit us, but it is all good, since we already had a superflu epidemic, a nuclear world war, and got conquered by aliens! No worries!"

Posted by: Undead Abomination #768921 (formerly Vermillion) at November 23, 2009 4:05 PM

I love you Dustin.

No really. I know I flip flop like a trapped salmon in a basket on my feelings for you but at this very moment in time I love you.

(And that's even with your dissing of my beloved NKOTB. Think of the adoration you would recieve if you would just acknowledge that RR's abs belong to me.)

I do like Kayanne's question about the grown women fawning over the very young boys in New Moon though. I saw it Saturday night (shut up) at the late show and while it didn't bother me to see a bunch of older women there watching it (sadly, at 34 I belong in that very group now) but I was seriously skeeved out at how giggly and screamy and drooly they got the first time that Taylor kid took his shirt off.

Seriously skeeved. Like I still can't shake the skeeviness despite three showers since Saturday night. He's a kid for fuck's sake, stop squeeing over his half naked body.

Posted by: Kelly at November 23, 2009 4:29 PM

@ Vermillion

But the point is not to tilt at windmills and lead the charge against Twilight as if it is undermining all of Western Civilization. A much better use of your time would be to support quality books, movies, and other art forms with some substance and advocate on their behalf (good luck coming to an consensus on what those are, but that's beside the point.) You fight bad ideas with good ones, not by directing vitriol at the bad ones.

Criticize the film, it deserves it. But also acknowledge that a lot of people see this movie for a lot of different reasons, and most of them are perfectly capable of compartmentalizing their Twilight viewing or at least still retain the potential for growth when they emerge from that phase (and the one's who can't were probably lost causes and life-long Michael Bay fans to begin with, so don't lose any sleep there either.)

Hell, I'd rather see Twilight than 2012 or Transformers, at least there would be something to talk about afterwords instead of just wiping the drool from my mouth and searching for the remote.

Posted by: Yossarian at November 23, 2009 4:30 PM

Yes, you're very right (although the 'boy's stuff' thing is a little insulting.)

I just wish that the teenage female audiences could get their own Dark Knight

Um, screw the teenager, when are we (as in women in general) going to get our own Dark Knight? I think it's more than time. Buffy can only take me so far, you know? And I'm talking a proper female heroine in a well written film that should appeal to everyone. Yeah, I'm asking for a miracle, but it can be done. Possibly only in the 80s, but it can.

And I can't stand this whole us vs them thing in relation to films. I know a lot of girls/women might not feel they have a lot of choice when it comes to movies being made for them, but there are fucking shedloads of us who ARE happy to see action films and horror films, as well as the romantic 'crap'. Why does it have to be an either/or thing? I was a teen who went to see Titanic twice, yes. But I was also a kid who grew up watching Aliens and Terminator. The difference between those action films and the ones these days, for me, is that the women in them are people I could root for, who I could aspire to be. They kicked ass. If only we could have a few more of those on screen, I'd be well happy. But until then I guess I have to assume the man will save the day while a woman 'helps' and looks hot doing it.

I may have gone off on a tangent here...I think there's a point. Maybe.

Posted by: Carrie at November 23, 2009 4:31 PM

Speaking of a dearth of female-driven franchises...

Is it just me, or would making the Gemma Doyle trilogy by Libba Bray (A Great and Terrible Beauty, Rebel Angels, & The Sweet Far Thing) into movies be awesome?

Quality writing, strong characters, cool plot, interracial love affair...

Someone get on it!

Posted by: Donut Plains at November 23, 2009 4:33 PM

Dustin, I agree with you on a few points. By and large, genre features (be they movies, books, TV, and such) are generally developed by men for other men and young boys. Think about this for a second: How many people tuned in to T:SCC to watch the story unfold and how many turned in to watch Summer Glau and Lena Headey?

For that matter, look at the fantasy genre surrounding vampires. You have examples like Vampirella, a bikini clad vampire that most geek guys would gladly let suck their blood, provided it was done from a certain organ that gets harder than Chinese algebra from time to time. Or you have Blade (the comic series and movies) which feed both the desire to see hot vampire women and gratuitous amounts of violence (the staples of male fantasy from puberty to death).

Twilight (and by connection its more sexually-graphic predecessors, the Vampire Chronicles and the Anita Blake series), are turning what has traditionally been a male-dominated market and providing something for the females in the audience. Twilight books are no where close to being as good as Anne Rice's books (even the last few books in that series are better than Twilight's drivel) or Laurell K Hamilton's angst-ridden female protagonist (who seemed to forget she was in a detective series about halfway through in favor of Hamilton exploring her various sexual fantasies and fetishes through prose).

The point is Twilight objectifies its male characters for the squee-ing enjoyment of its intended audience the same way Vampirella's outfit started revealing more cleavage or artists depict female characters in genre paintings wearing the minimal amount of clothing to legally pass the porn test. It's not the end of the world. Its just another example of this: a deprived group of people will take whatever scraps are thrown to them from the table, even it the scraps are covered in mold and are certain to create a serious case of the runs.

Posted by: bignick at November 23, 2009 4:41 PM

Buffy can only take me so far, you know?

by Carrie


Carrie, I don't know you so I'm not going to insult you or another that closely resembles flaming. But I would like to ask you a question: do you realize that Buffy is built more for male audiences than female?

Think about it: Attractive woman who commits acts of violence. And she's a cheerleader. Does this sound like a geek man's wet dream? Survey says, Affirmative.

The fact that women latched on to the series was simply an added bonus. It gave those of us who had mothers, sisters, girlfriends or girl friends to watch the show, oogle the hot chicks and get down on some violence under the pretense of watching the show only because we were forced to by our mother/sister/girlfriend/female friend, etc.

Posted by: bignick at November 23, 2009 4:46 PM

I haven't read the books or seen the movie so everything I say from here on out is hearsay, however from what I've heard the hurt that "Twilight" is going to cause to our culture has little to do with the fact that its hugely popular. The problem with it is that it teaches teenagers, particularly girls (who as you said are largely stupid and easily swayed by peer pressure) certain values that will only hurt them in life. The fourth book supposedly portrays intra-marital rape in a sympathetic light. If that is the case, then it is a lot worse than NKotB (all the cool kids shorten the name to its initials). Boy bands teach impressionable girls that dancing is hawt and the boy of their dreams might be sensitive. "Twilight" on the other hand teaches girls that they should be submissive and weak willed when it comes to men and has the potential cultural force to start a decades worth of children who think start thinking of women as second class again.

Again, that was all hearsay. I've also probably blown things slightly out of proportion.

Posted by: slagzoo at November 23, 2009 4:49 PM

...Titanic didn’t turn the Hollywood marketplace on its head.

I still submit that it did exactly that, although, like you state about Twilight, not in the most obvious way. Titanic proved to studio execs that hugely-hyped, hugely-budgeted productions can make absurd amounts of money. Thus, The Matrix, The Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man, and Transformers. There's always been an increase in the amount spent on big movies and a corresponding increase in (at least the expectation of) profits. But Titanic blew that so far out of the water that it really changed the whole game.

Posted by: Todd at November 23, 2009 4:52 PM

I guess we have different ideas about the point of Buffy, or have taken different things from it. I'm happy to see a kick ass woman who has any kind of character development. Basically, I don't agree with your assessment of being built for male audiences. But that's fine, I don't want to 'flame' you either.

And she was only a cheerleader for one episode. :)

Posted by: Carrie at November 23, 2009 4:52 PM

I think the real success of Twilight is in the casting: sure you have to have a story of men sacrificing themselves for love, but you also need just the right talent.

Just like Titanic, Twilight hits the sweet spots in terms of:

1) The actress portraying the heroine is cute, but not beautiful. Too hot, and women get offended and won't identify, but too plain and they won't believe it. Best way to go is usually the put-glasses-or-unflattering-clothing-on-an-attractive-women-to-make-her-hollywood-ugly route.

2) The actors portraying the men have to be female-friendly. That is, actors that any guy really likes need not apply. Even though objectively Leonardo DiCaprio has redeemed himself since Titanic, I still think of him as a big wuss b/c of that movie.

Posted by: Jacktrade at November 23, 2009 4:54 PM

Ripley, Vasquez, Leeloo, Alice and Sara Conner and were all strong female characters in action movies. That's not something that hasn't been done, it's just not done often enough. As for the older women, there's been a huge surge in dark romance/fantasy fiction in the past few years. Lots of women falling in love with demons, vampires, werewolves, everything but leprechauns and the sasquatch that was in the other comments. So I'm assuming that Twilight is just taking advantage of a genre craze.

Posted by: mrcreosote at November 23, 2009 4:55 PM

particularly girls (who as you said are largely stupid and easily swayed by peer pressure)

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this came out wrong. There is a discussion to be had about the implications of gender and relationship roles in the Twilight series but shit like this ain't the way to start.

These comments really need an edit function.

Posted by: Yossarian at November 23, 2009 4:55 PM

Yossarian

Yeah, I actually changed that sentence like nine times while writing trying to figure out a way to make that parenthetical statement not appear as though I was directing it at girls only. Obviously I failed in my wording. The "particularly girls" meant that the books are aimed primarily at teenage girls not that the girls are more likely to be stupid and easily swayed. That segment, which was lifted from the review, was aimed at teenages as a whole.

Posted by: slagzoo at November 23, 2009 5:04 PM

From the comments I'm seeing this is a well thought-out and well-argued treatise, Dustin, but you insulted -- nay, eviscerated -- NKOTB and therefore I cannot trust your taste anymore. I'm returning When Angels Rest to the library, unread.

JOEY 4-EVA!

Posted by: vikky at November 23, 2009 5:09 PM

Dustin,

Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in people who rushed out to be first in line to see Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen attacking those with a similar fervour for Twilight.

Poorly written genre fiction is always okay by people when it's their poorly written genre fiction...

Posted by: Daniel Hall at November 23, 2009 5:13 PM

Well written piece, Dustin.

Posted by: kelsy at November 23, 2009 5:18 PM

Eight posts on this website in the past few days which focus on Twilight, one of which has over 400 comments, and it's teenage girls who are obsessed?

Posted by: Erm at November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

Of course it's not the end of civilization. You're right there will always be cultural movements like this one.

However, that doesn't mean people shouldn't make the critiques that they do and try to push to have the bar raised for genre fare or what's aimed at the tweens and the teens.

And there's no hypocrisy here - I won't be seeing this or Revenge Of The Fallen ever. That leaves me without a firsthand opinion on which to stand, of course, but from what I've heard I'm not missing much in either case.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at November 23, 2009 5:31 PM

Justin-

Disagree. It's another sign of the impending apocalypse. Why?

Twimoms. They're even worse than the girls. I know perfectly intelligent women, strong, vibrant, feminist types who go all wonky at the sight of that underdeveloped twatwaffle. Why? To me, it's the same concept as the Jack-in-the-Box taco...they're terrible and probably frighteningly bad for you, but they put something in them to make you stop caring. These women are being brainwashed. By a glittery, whiny douchebag and his girlfriend with the dominant id.

I'm all for fantasy, believe me, but where do we draw the line between fantasy and BAD FOR THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT?

Mark my words...end times are nigh.

Posted by: Smokin at November 23, 2009 5:36 PM

I will never get over Macho Grande. Or Top Gun. That shit still rules. "Where'd who go!?"

Posted by: Brenton at November 23, 2009 5:40 PM

This little essay hinted at but didn't quite capture what bothers me about the response to Twilight. That storyline provides a whole helluva lot to complain about from a feminist standpoint. But there's also this hand-wringing tone about our children getting the wrong notions of sexuality, and their empty-headed idiotic mothers are in on the game too! If I read the word "hysterical" one more time... The tenor is very much that girls and women are too silly to control their desires, and every complaint about cougars or shrieking is a thinly veiled way of telling women that their desires should be controlled. It's more than possible to critique the junk in Twilight without implying that women and their desires ought to be invisible. Haters, stop and think about what it is exactly that you're hating on. :)

Posted by: The sheriff is near! at November 23, 2009 5:51 PM

There is no equivalent phenomenon in male movies or culture. There simply aren't movies boys see 15 or 20 times, there isn't a talk show host like Oprah that controls the minds of men the way that Oprah controls the minds of women and this control isn't changed when she screws up like she did with that Million Little Pieces debacle. There was no loss of marketing power and she didn't pay any price for that. Whenever Oprah goes away she will be succeeded by another ugly fat lesbian in the Oprah and Rosie mold and nothing she does will get her shit canned by her audience.

Romcoms make movies derived from video games look like master works of plot and character development. Twilight doesn't signal the end, it is simply the continuation of a cultural phenomenon that has gone on for far too long where women refuse to think for themselves and would prefer to belong to a group no matter how horrid the leader is. Female culture continues to operate on the level of a nation wide junior high school clique and there is no reason to believe this will ever change.

Posted by: OscarTamerz at November 23, 2009 5:55 PM

No mention of the female pop music explosion of 1998-2001?

Posted by: grace b at November 23, 2009 6:13 PM

Okay, not to say that the moms obsessing over the male actors in Twilight isn't skeevy...but is it really that much different from old dads drooling over, say, Emma Watson (or any young starlet)? I'm not that familiar with the Twimom phenomenon, so it's an honest question.

Posted by: meaux at November 23, 2009 6:29 PM

Hey The sheriff is near!, I'll assume that's you reading over my shoulder.

When I asked my question, I wasn't trying to imply that an older woman's desires should be dismissed. I just think it's... well... gross. I mean, when a 56-year-old man slobbers over 17-year-old Miley Cyrus, it's a crime (Thank God), but if I woman does the same thing, she's just freeing her Cougar! It's like when a teacher hits on her younger, under-aged male student. Men treat it like the ultimate fantasy, when in reality, she should be getting 20 in the penn.

Seriously, ladies, there are plenty of legal attractive men out there. Freak out within the confines of the law.

Posted by: Kayanne at November 23, 2009 6:35 PM

But also acknowledge that a lot of people see this movie for a lot of different reasons, and most of them are perfectly capable of compartmentalizing their Twilight viewing or at least still retain the potential for growth when they emerge from that phase (and the one's who can't were probably lost causes and life-long Michael Bay fans to begin with, so don't lose any sleep there either.)

True, this may not last, but it is the sheer NUMBER of people involved.

Studios don't care about compartments; they want the stuff that makes them money. So if a bunch of women sink their sawbucks into a lackluster film because there is nothing else, or a bunch of guys shell out dollars just to ogle at a barely-dressed starlet, it just convinces the bean counters that they need more of whatever makes them money.

Even if every single person who saw Twilight or Transformers got over it the very next day, it still made a shitload of money off their momentary "twinge". I would rather it was a case of a few diehard fans selling their houses to support it; then I can just say "Well, it's their money, if they love it so much, fine".

But if the success of Twilight is indeed a case of these women having nothing better to pay for (which is Dustin's assertion, and one I think is bollocks), then I do have the privilege of hating them. Because all they are doing is convincing the studios and the booksellers that this is what they want, regardless of their actual tastes.

Posted by: Undead Abomination #768921 (formerly Vermillion) at November 23, 2009 6:39 PM

Couldn't we just say, Twilight is porn for girls? I mean, I like PORN porn (Whoopi!) in its own right, as I'm sure some dudes like American Beauty, but isn't it just sometimes easier to go for the cheap thrills? Transformers = Twilight. we know its not real, just as boys know there are not cars that turn into destructive warrior machines. Enough.

Posted by: patchfire at November 23, 2009 6:54 PM

Shorter “Why Twilight et al, Blows”:
The “saga” takes the iconic bad guys of film and literature, defangs them and converts them into what Bill Hicks would describe as “ball-less, soul-less pieces of shit, suckers of Satan’s cock, each and every last one of them”. It shits on the cultural definition I grew up with, but has clearly ensnared those too young to share my view or those who didn’t care about it in the first place and want to take advantage of a rare opportunity to relive the romantic fantasies their youth. Civilization will not be destroyed by a crappily written story. It will be destroyed by a combination of finance, industry, government, military and a population distracted by arguments like “whether or not it was the fault of a mediocre writer milking her one bankable idea for all it’s worth”.

Bignick- your description of Buffy.
“Attractive woman who commits acts of violence. And she's a cheerleader. Does this sound like a geek man's wet dream? Survey says, Affirmative.
The fact that women latched on to the series was simply an added bonus.”

…seems like a reductive interpretation. Violence was a part of it but a minor one in terms of actual airtime- in fact possibly barring season finales, the fights themselves were the least part of the whole show. Most what made BTVS memorable was the way it charted the relationship shifts between fully fleshed out characters and the struggle of the heroine to balance her desires with her destiny. A “boy” take on that story would shift the emphasis towards the fights (wirework, cool angles, jumpcuts, etc), the “support crew” would be there with cool gadgets/spells/masses of exposition on key weaknesses and precious little else besides jargon and the odd wisecrack. There might be some minor bromance between him and his “wingman”, a feisty female love interest to offset any accusations of “fagginess” and while there would be emphasis on the hero’s sacrifice, but his destiny would never actually be in question because “it sucks, but that’s just what I gotta do”. It would also last about a season or two before the core audience got bored with it.

Posted by: Squirrelgripper at November 23, 2009 7:09 PM

Bignick, dude, way off base with Buffy.

Anyone watching that show for the women that wasn't drawn in by the characters and writing probably owns Captivity on Special Release (I kid, but come one - definitely not written for the fellas, but for the fans).

Also, I read every freakin' comment on the other Twilight thread, and I thought it was a great debate (and the win to Yossarian). That being said... Vermillion is the biggest bellend at Pajiba.

What a peanut.

Posted by: Peter G at November 23, 2009 7:27 PM

Slagzoo, you can breathe easy. I have read all the books and there is no rape. Nor is Bella weak and submissive - throughout the books she is stubborn, demanding, and generally inconsiderate of others' feelings.

Great, great piece Dustin. I agree with you; this is just another pulp romance that will have its day and then fade into memory. Let's just stop blowing it out of proportion. I have to laugh how rumors like what I mentioned above spread like wildfire. Everyone is eager to assume the worst, especially if they have not actually read the books to see what all the fuss is about. In my view, Twilight is neither abstinence propaganda nor porn; it's just a sappy, titillating, overwrought romance series that happens to be written by a Mormon. Please, we girls know it isn't reality. That's half the fun.

Posted by: Empress of All the Russias at November 23, 2009 7:32 PM

Spot on Erm.

Me thinks, peeps are obssessed with Twilight and all things to do with it.

It's alright guys, to state the fact that your're fascinated by the whole Twilight Phenomenom.

By the by, New Moon was the ShizNITT!!! Saw it tonight and plan to do so again. *grins*.
And yes, I'm 20(no teenager) and will surely grin in proud embarassment 10 years down the lane that me and my mates went to watch New Moon, kitted out in our tshirts(Team Edward btw) and took pictures of us infront of the big New Moon posters and discussed the movie on our way bk home with glee.

It may have had somee of the cheesiest lines we've ever heard but a great night was had by all.

Posted by: Jean at November 23, 2009 7:55 PM

OscarTamerz, you don't know very many women, do you?

Or let me guess, these stereotypes don't apply to the (admittedly few) women you know, it's all those other mindless housewives that have their mind's controlled by ugly fat lesbian talk show hosts.

"women refuse to think for themselves and would prefer to belong to a group no matter how horrid the leader is. Female culture continues to operate on the level of a nation wide junior high school clique and there is no reason to believe this will ever change."

Really, I can't even begin to address everything that is wrong with this comment. I gave someone else the benefit of the doubt above but you get no such consideration.

You seem insistent that this is specifically a female problem. I think this is the reason that I have spent so much time this weekend defending Twilight on Pajiba (a role I never imagined for myself.)

There's no shortage of shitty movies released every year. No shortage of crap novels and ignorant talk-show hosts either(many a lot worse than the Big O). We bitch about all of them, sure, but why does Twilight get such strong opposition? Whether it's cloaked in bullshit patronizing "we must protect these women and girls from this harmful material" with the implication they can't think for themselves, or the more outright hostility toward "female culture" (whatever that is) that your comments represent.

The Sheriff definitely has a point above.

Posted by: Yossarian at November 23, 2009 7:58 PM

Wow.

I'm gonna digress a little bit here but I have to say this.

I came to be at Pajiba by accident, but I liked the tone of the articles and stuck around. Then, I found things like the EEs that, at first, seemed really cool for being a real sense of community built into a basically news-and-views website. But then I started getting irritated at all these "oh we're pajibans we're the chosen ones blah blah" that starts happening around here some times, especially on the damn EEs post. I mean, there are things here that though I don't like, I respect and even admire, like the Paheeba Day, which was really boring for me but I like its existence for being another proof of how much people value this community.

My point is that sometimes I come across really great things that remind me of why I stay here, like the The Wire video posted days ago, and now this apparently random text about how the entertainment industry is male-oriented, in such a blind way that they can't even see the real reason behind some of the biggest box office hits. I'm beginning to like Dustin, even though he finds the greatest sport on earth boring and has never seen The Wire. And I'm amazed that even at such a serious post as this, there's the subtle joke of it being a SRL, which is both smart and funny. So that's Pajiba, surprising, smart and funny. I don't love you but I wanna keep seeing you for some time.

Posted by: zito at November 23, 2009 8:02 PM

Zito, you can stick around as long as you like. Just forgive us our occasional back-patting.

And to answer your question, Meaux, no, it's probably not much different. The dads lusting over 'random hot girl in any movie' is pretty much the same as the moms who scream in the theater when Senor Glitternuts comes on the screen.

Posted by: Smokin at November 23, 2009 8:27 PM

Well fucking duh.

Posted by: Dingles at November 23, 2009 8:39 PM

Just to clarify before someone takes that the wrong way: I'm not saying that about all criticism of Twilight. Most of it is well deserved and a lot of the fervor is backlash against the overwhelming popularity of the series. I agree with a lot of you.

Posted by: Yossarian at November 23, 2009 8:46 PM

I have to wonder how much we play into the studios' hands when we have this sort of discussion. All the controversy involved is basically free advertising for them. While I've never seen a Twilight movie or read one of the books, I never really would have even considered it if it weren't for this site. As it is, I actually considered seeing the new one just to see for myself what all the fuss was about (I ultimately decided that it was a retarded idea).

Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it strikes me as a gross generalization that any movies aimed at women have to be love stories, and anything else is aimed at men. Also the strong female protagonist isn't exactly good criteria (Tomb Raider much?). I seem to remember the largely female audience of this site obssessing over The Dark Knight and Ironman as much as anyone else.

Lastly, I second the dislike of EE. It's the only post type on this site that I regularly skip, as I find that either I've already read the comments involved so they bore me; or I haven't read them and so don't know the context, and again they bore me. It's all just a big circle jerk.

Why is it that the Pajiba forums haven't gone in yet? It seems to me that this would allow somewhere for the community to have their bizarre discussions, and keep the comment threads for their frequently amusing, witty and insightful comments on the movies themselves.

Posted by: Chugga at November 23, 2009 8:56 PM

OscarTamerz, you don't know very many women, do you?

Yeah, I live in a Trappist monastery in Hokkaido.

Yossarian You wrote a reply but didn't refute a single point I made. "Really, I can't even begin to address everything that is wrong with this comment." That would be because it's true. Sure there are a lot of worse talk show hosts like Jerry Springer and Maury Povich but they don't wield anything like like the influence that Oprah has over her minions and they don't have book clubs shilling books for publishing houses or entire shows that are just one long commercial for manufacturers disguised as a giveaway. Oprah, crappy romcoms, worse Harlequin bodice-ripping romance novels, very bad movies seen multiple times all point to a very serious problem with uncritical group think that is a central problem in American female culture and there is no parallel influence on men or comparable group behavior that you can point to. The fact is that it is consistent and strong enough to allow for easy economic exploitation with whatever minimal effort it takes to crank out another Oprah show and make Oprah a multibillionaire says it all. Much better talk show hosts never made a fraction of what Oprah makes from Carson to Leno to Letterman to anybody else because they don't have the influence and therefore the cash that Oprah has.

Posted by: OscarTamerz at November 23, 2009 9:02 PM

Posted by: Squirrelgripper at November 23, 2009 7:09 PM

This was a great take all around, in my opinion.

------
Lastly, I second the dislike of EE. It's the only post type on this site that I regularly skip...It's all just a big circle jerk.

A justifiable feeling, so by all means, please continue to skip it.

Posted by: branded at November 23, 2009 10:00 PM

Ha! You say "crappy romcoms" and "Harlequin bodice-rippers" and all I can think of is Transformers 2 and porn mags.

1. Don't be scared of Harlequin bodice rippers. If the ladies like to read something, they can read it. You don't have to understand why, although you could give it a try.

2. Hollywood is saturated with bland, formulaic movies. I'm all for debating the politics of these movies, but let's not pretend that romcoms are destructive and dangerous nodes of scary lady hive mind on an order above everything else.

3. Seeing as studios bank on women being willing to watch male-oriented product and therefore product a shitton more of it, I could turn your argument around and ask you why you're not concerned at the dangerous male hive mind that refuses to consume female-oriented media. Aren't there destructive notions of masculinity at work here?

Sheriff and Yossarian are talking sense here, give it a read.

Posted by: nigeltde at November 23, 2009 10:15 PM

I don't know where to begin because it is tough to pin down just what you are claiming. At first I just thought it was a mindless rant, but you've come back to a lot of the same talking points so now I assume you actually think you have a point.

Are you claiming that women, as a group, are less critical and less discriminating consumers of popular culture than men? That women are easier to manipulate? That they would rather conform to some group where they are controlled by Oprah (or something) and that they have a much greater tendency toward this than men do? That the support they put behind these things is undermining the greater good of society and they are more to blame than men, who make better decisions, support better cultural works, think for themselves more, etc. Are you talking about all women, most women, women in general, or what?

And what do you need for me to refute these points?

"Crappy Romcoms"? What does that even mean? Are you lumping all of them together or just the "crappy" ones? How is that any different than mindless action movies and all the other stupid shit that Hollywood churns out every year? Are Paul Blart and Transformers unisex but Twilight is all their fault?

Romance novels? Seriously, you have a problem with romance novels? With a multi-billion dollar porn industry supported almost entirely by men you think bodice rippers are a sign of our culture in decline? The reason there are more crappy books written for women is that women read more books than men, crappy or otherwise. If either gender is letting down contemporary literature it's the fellas not pulling our weight.

Guys don't watch movies multiple times? Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, Harry Potter, I know guys who saw each of these movies multiple times. And what's so bad about seeing a movie more than once? Is watching Twilight four times worse than seeing Transformers, GI Joe, 2012, and Wolverine? Why do you have such a problem with it?

Posted by: Yossarian at November 23, 2009 10:17 PM

This has to be one of the greatest boosts for morale ever. I don't feel like shutting myself away for the next few years anymore.

Someone may have already come to this conclusion, but does anyone else predict a spike in sales of Prozac when this series is finally over? They'll all be coming down pretty hard. And there's a lot of them. I mean the only reason I'd be jealous of these fans is that they get real meds and I get stuck with a headache and Tylenol.

Posted by: kelli at November 23, 2009 10:27 PM

Yossarian, run it home, baby. I was going to tell OscarTamerz to go piss up a rope because he wasn't describing any woman I've ever met.

There's this concept of 'whimsy' that I think I have, as a woman, that sometimes leads me to get invested in something hysterically funny, shallow or amusing. Do not presume to tell me that makes me some kind of led-by-the-nose, vapid twit that cannot control my own purse. My sense of humour dictates a lot of my media consumption, not the 'shallow character' you seem to accuse me of having. (I think I'm taking it personally)

I think all the Twilight stuff is crap, but that won't stop me from enjoying the hell out of the next thing.

And I obviously took my mind off of that shiny nickel long enough to invite you to avoid leaving thinly veiled screeds against women out where I can see it. You've basically left a cypher through which all your future opinions will be calculated. And most likely found wanting.

Posted by: replica at November 23, 2009 10:32 PM

all point to a very serious problem with uncritical group think that is a central problem in American female culture and there is no parallel influence on men or comparable group behavior that you can point to.

Uh, yeah, that is just wrong. I may have disagreed with Yossarian on Twilight, but even I think that is just ridiculous.

Men don't have a parallel influence? How about fraternities, sports, geek culture, jock culture, movies, music, games, television, politics, religion and more, all designed to put forth this egocentric male ideal that denigrates anything remotely feminine as negative, while acting slavishly fetishistic about everything "manly"?

But let's say your statements are true. Then it still craps on both sexes, because it means that while women would have an excuse for their decisions, men actively CHOOSE to consume bullshit.

Posted by: Undead Abomination #768921 (formerly Vermillion) at November 23, 2009 10:46 PM

Okay, so, I haven't actually had time to read this full article yet, and I've only had time to skim the comments as well. But I am once again seeing a lot of anger directed at ...ahem, "older" women who are ... appreciative of the physical endowments of the actors in this franchise, and I just wanted to point out one or two things about that:

1) They are actors. Actors are hired, generally speaking, for their looks. Movies are DESIGNED to make people swoon over the physical attractiveness of their characters, PARTICULARLY in this franchise; in the books, it was all about the looks.

2) I'll give you that the level of ... sexual desire directed at Lautner is skeevy, as he is 17, but Pattinson is 23. He is an adult.

3) Most women hit their sexual peak somewhere between 35-45. Let me tell you something about a woman's sexual peak: it makes one INSATIABLE. Please do not judge someone based on the reactions of their bodies and their chemistries to young men who are paid lots of money to be attractive, particularly if you are a woman. One day, you too will hit your peak, and you will want to mount every man who falls into your eyeline, but especially the pretty ones. It won't matter how old, or rather young, they are. (Example: you could have sex four times over he course of an afternoon with a 23-year-old uber-hot Bulgarian, and still not be quite satisfied. Through no fault of the Bulgarian. Or so I hear.)

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at November 23, 2009 11:04 PM

It's too bad The Golden Compass didn't do better -- the girl saves the world in that one.

Posted by: skipaway2000 at November 23, 2009 11:05 PM

I can't believe Twilight and Titanic are even being compared here. One was a well thought out epic drama and one is cow dung that keeps on shitting up the place. We had one beautifully written, acted and directed movie the fittingly won several Oscars, while now we have a series of badly make books being made into worse movies. I have reason to be afraid. These teenagers and some adults have no discernable taste. They're like sheep who fail to take an analytical viewpoint on popculture, what it means and how they contribute negatively to it. This is not the same kind of demographic I grew up with. Its a dumbed down version and I say it on more examples than just this movie but I won't go there.

At least when I was growing up they're weren't 30 and 40 year old woman acting worse than some of the teenagers which is another cause for alarm.

Posted by: Candy at November 23, 2009 11:06 PM

Female culture continues to operate on the level of a nation wide junior high school clique and there is no reason to believe this will ever change.

...

Wow. I have no words. I'm just going to continue my night of squeeing over Edward and back stabingly calling my roommate fat.

Posted by: Julie at November 23, 2009 11:07 PM

Cheers branded, just wanted to prove it was possible to slam it without resorting to dubious psychoanalysis and/or gender politics. And cheers Yossarian for fighting a fight I had neither the time or patience for.

Posted by: Squirrelgripper at November 24, 2009 12:13 AM

And cheers to Squirrelgripper for having one of the most hilarious and awesome names ever.

Posted by: popejenn at November 24, 2009 12:49 AM

3) Most women hit their sexual peak somewhere between 35-45. Let me tell you something about a woman's sexual peak: it makes one INSATIABLE.

I
Am
So
There.

And I still think the Twitard shit is as useless as tits on a bull.

I'm Back Bitches! Anybody miss me?

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at November 24, 2009 12:58 AM

Thank you your grace [kisses papal ring]. I was toying with switching tags to Punxatawny Phil but your blessing has forced a rethink.

Posted by: Squirrelgripper at November 24, 2009 1:24 AM

Before I forget, didn't Kill Bill feature both a heroine and a set of villains that outside of two characters was all female? In fact, but for the last few minutes of Volume 2, all of the one-on-one battles in both movies is woman warrior vs woman warrior. And not girls, but adult women and in the kind of fights that couldn't be dismissed as titillating fanboy fare (like say the Underworld movies).

Is the Twilight craze the end of all things? Not really (Although the last movie is scheduled to come out in 2012. Coincidence?)

To me, it always felt that women outgrew the kind of goofy, retrospective fads quicker than guys. Guys fall prey to Transformers, GI Joe and the like. And while girls had their NKOTB or N Sync/Backstreet Boys phases, they were faster and better at dropping those things when the moment came.

I mean, hell, I still listen to heavy metal (the music of choice for 16 year olds that work at Taco Bell everywhere). I still will watch anime and Looney Tunes. I spend too much time talking about sports.

I never thought I'd see grown women acting about a movie/book craze as bad as guys talking about sports. That's the level of crazy that the Twilight groupies go to, in my eyes.

And not like the nice soccer moms neither. I'm talking soccer hooligans that'll meet you outside the stadium to rumble.

I'm scared. Someone hold me.

Posted by: Fredo at November 24, 2009 3:14 AM

Posted by: Fredo at November 24, 2009 3:15 AM

So no one admits the significance of Oprah and her control of the hive mind of the American female. She earns annually between $275 and $350 million, according to Forbes and Wikipedia, and even if you include the earnings of her wholly owned chopped liver meat puppet Dr. Phil who takes down $80 million to be #2 appealing to exactly the sane audience she easily out earns the rest of the top ten talk show hosts put together, from Letterman at #3 to Jon Stewart at #10. I get it, you're all in her thrall already. I'm just going to go check around for pods. They'll probably have Harpo logos on them.

Posted by: OscarTamerz at November 24, 2009 4:16 AM

Oscar, check your fly. Your crazy is showing.

Posted by: nigeltde at November 24, 2009 4:36 AM

OscarTamerz what kind of bee in your bonnet do you have about Oprah?

Jeez. I don't watch her, I don't resent her, I don't think she's infallible...I just...never really consider her in my day to day life. I don't know anyone who does, and who cares?

Well...you obviously do.

Tell me, what has she done to you? Given your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/transitional partner 36 tips for a better love life, and you are no longer bendy? Outlined a list of qualities for the 'perfect man' and you've been judged wanting? What?! Because this diatribe of yours is whack.

Posted by: replica at November 24, 2009 4:47 AM

Hey Oscar:

* First and foremost, how many movies are such a phenomenon that girls see them 15 to 20 times? I'll give you the "Twilight" series and "Titanic." That makes three. But how many other films can you point to? Compare that to the largely male fanbase of the "Star Wars," "Star Trek," "The Matrix," "Fight Club," "Lord of the Rings," etc. I fail to see how fans who speak Klingon or ascribe to a Jedi religion or unironically start their own versions of Project Mayhem are all that different from Twi-Hards.

*And when you talk about Oprah's fanbase, you're talking about a completely different demographic from "Twilight" or "Titanic." Yes, some of the tweens and teens who enjoy "Twilight" now will go on to enjoy Oprah or whoever may replace her. But many of them won't. And many tweens and teens who don't like "Twilight" or "Titanic" will enjoy Oprah or her equivalent when they reach adulthood. Lumping all these women together is intellectually disingenuous, at best.

*On a side note, do you know much about Oprah's Book Club? Yes, sometimes it's full of trite, pseudo-psychology and utter dribble. But it also features Nobel laureates and Pulitzer/Booker-prize winners. Personally, I'm reluctant to call Toni Morrison, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Leo Tolstoy, Isabelle Allende, Pearl S. Buck, and William Faulkner as derivative of a junior high school clique, but maybe you went to a better junior high school. I, for one, was too busy seeing "Star Wars" multiple times.

*Fat ugly lesbian? Really? That's the best you can do? At least take the opportunity to use the term "dick mitten"! C'mon, dude!

*Can we agree that the definition of "romantic comedy" is a "film in which a romantic story is presented in a comedic way?" Can we then also agree that "Back to the Future" and "Fight Club" are romantic comedies?

* And your point about women not thinking for themselves. Logic FAIL.

Your turn.

Posted by: amenfro at November 24, 2009 7:00 AM

Sorry about that . . . I didn't realize how astronomically long that comment was.

Fredo, both "Kill Bill" films were fanboy fare. And they were visions of female empowerment.* They can be both; it's just exceptionally rare.

Mostly. The Black Mamba/California Mountain Snake showdown was over a dude, which is pretty stereotypical. It was all "betta back off bitch!" with katanas and eye-gouging instead of hair-pulling and slap-fighting. It also took place in a trailer, which is the second worst place to fight. (#1 is a basement.)

Posted by: amenfro at November 24, 2009 7:13 AM

Fredo- it's truly scary how much of that dead man's material still resonates.

Posted by: Squirrelgripper at November 24, 2009 7:39 AM

Ripley, Vasquez, Leeloo, Alice and Sara Conner and were all strong female characters in action movies.

I would probably swap Vasquez and Alice for The Bride. If only for the fact that she has a lot more in common with the other names on your list than they do, especially the "mama bear headlining a movie" part.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at November 23, 2009 11:04 PM

We wouldn't dream of begrudging you your naughty time, Mistress of Beavers and Puppets. In fact, when the revolution comes, you shall have your pick of the surviving pretty boys, and a special little room for your lewd and lascivious acts.

Posted by: Undead Abomination #768921 (formerly Vermillion) at November 24, 2009 7:42 AM

The Black Mamba/California Mountain Snake showdown was over a dude, which is pretty stereotypical. It was all "betta back off bitch!" with katanas and eye-gouging instead of hair-pulling and slap-fighting.

What are you talking about? There might have been some residual jealousy on the part of Elle, but it was way more than just over Bill's affections, namely, that everything (the training, the job, the escape from Bill's clutches, the child) all came comparatively easy for Bride, while all Elle got for her troubles was a plucked eye and a dead teacher.

Besides, Bride at that point could give less of a shit about who was messing with her "man", considering the whole plot of the film was her attempt to kill the bastard. So it is a bit disingenuous to refer to that fight as if it was an episode of "Cheaters".

Posted by: Undead Abomination #768921 (formerly Vermillion) at November 24, 2009 7:52 AM

zito aw, sugar welcome to my slice of life! Although, I have to warn you that alerting the natives to your opinions that defer from theirs will leave you in a comfortable spot of them quietly ignoring your comments. It's almost as cool as the other side of the pillow.

AvB yeah, no. I don't mean to chastise older women for getting their freak on. If R. Pattz (as the hip kids refer to him) wants to get down in with every woman over 40 in the world, my blessings to him and the women soon to find themselves with greasy pillow sheets. I just feel bad for that little Lautner boy (who isn't legal) who has even sad he feels uncomfortable with so many people making him a sex object. I mean... he's a freakin' kid. Poor baby. Somebody wrap that kid in a snuggie and get him a hot chocolate. Then he and Taylor Swift could read ghost stories and some such nonsense. It'll be tweendorable.

Posted by: Kayanne at November 24, 2009 9:45 AM

On point:
Nice work, Pajib-y overlord. So, maybe the Twitard invasion is not a sign of the zombie apocalypse, but I'm stocking up anyway. Cant' be too careful.

On the other point:
All that longing and hoping and team this or that seems like a lot of work. My tweener years were far simpler: "Hey, boobies! What - more boobies. Over there, too - boobies. I never noticed before ... boobies! Boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies. Yay boobies!" Those first frissions of viva la differance - yum.

Nobody with a brain ever claimed that tweener guys were subtle. Growing up consists, I think, of being able to hold another though occasionally. (Boobies!)

Posted by: BierceAmbrose at November 24, 2009 9:47 AM

The Oprah hive mind compels me to type this comment. That is all. I have no will of my own...my own...my own...

Jesus. Can I make a generalization about people who make generalizations about women? Trust me, it's not complimentary in nature at all.

I think the sheriff has nailed the underlying sentiments that make me uncomfortable with some aspects of the Twi-hate. Teh wimmenz, they cannot think for themselfs!

Posted by: Pancakes! at November 24, 2009 10:01 AM

BierceAmbrose, to your point on tweener guys...my tweener years were filled with soaking up every Schwarzenegger flick, and thinking these were the best movies ever made.

Can't even remember how many times I saw Commando and appreciated it un-ironically.

Posted by: Jacktrade at November 24, 2009 10:03 AM

No, ain't the end of the world as we know it. It is annoying - squeeing in particular is annoying, unless you yourself are the squee-er. I once went to a Duran Duran concert (third album) and I didn't hear one note or lyric throughout due to the screaming. In fact, a girl I'd never met started sobbing during some song on my shoulder. It was insanity. And kinda frightening, all the energy and hormones in that auditorium. So I think I understand those feelings of fear in those who don't like the Twilight Phenomenom (cuz that's what it is, and soon it'll be something else). I haven't seen it, don't care to read them, I'm tired to death of vampires right now.

I am also tired of shitty movies in general. And if peeps want to be mad about something, I would say stop striding the gender line and put your money where your mouth is - stop paying to see shit (Wolverine, Twilight, 2012, etc) or shut up. Bad movies are bad movies. Oprah is the devil, but it's not her fault people pay to see shit, nor is it Michael Bay's fault, or Bryan Singer's fault, or J.J. Abram's fault. People want to get paid. Admit that you fear the fan base of these films, but if you like those big BANG! films (or romcoms, and yes, I like both if not too poorly done), either see how you contribute to the creation of more of them, or refuse to contribute and suggest something better to do with your money and time.

Not that any argument presented here is necessarily more valid than another, and I am not trying to shut anyone down. I'd rather hear that kids are reading, and personally, I'd like a day where the movies were so good I couldn't decide which to see on my day off. But as it stands, recognize that phenomenoms are for the most part transitory (except for the Beatles, pretty much), and there will be something new to despise any time now. People like things to get excited about, and I don't have to understand it necessarily, but I wouldn't take it away from them (not that I could). I have things that I love that way, too, that people have criticized me for, but you know what? I don't care what they think, and still love it. And I don't want girls growing up to think that they have to be subservient to men and risk their lives for love or any of that romantic batshit. But it won't stop til it's out of gas. So buckle up, it's going to be a nauseatingly squeeful ride, y'all.

Posted by: Chickaboom at November 24, 2009 10:40 AM

"But any movie that has Kate Winslet's boobs automatically gets at least a 3 out of 4 star rating."

Fair enough, but since (if memory serves) Winslet only showed one boob in Titanic, doesn't that mean it only gets 1 1/2 stars?

Posted by: Irving Washington at November 24, 2009 10:55 AM

*Twilight Phenomenon* is what I meant, no matter how I spelled it before. :)

Posted by: Chickaboom at November 24, 2009 11:01 AM

"there is no parallel influence on men or comparable group behavior that you can point to."
---
*points*
N
*points*
F
*points*
L

Posted by: , (just , cause I'm tired of typing that other shit) at November 24, 2009 11:03 AM

) Most women hit their sexual peak somewhere between 35-45. Let me tell you something about a woman's sexual peak: it makes one INSATIABLE.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at November 23, 2009 11:04 PM
---
O!M!G!
---
I
Am
So
There.

[O!!!M!!!F!!!G!!!]

I'm Back Bitches! Anybody miss me?

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at November 24, 2009 12:58 AM
---
I rea!!y, rea!!y enjoyed your v!s!t and you are more than we!come to come aga!n
anyt!me when you can stay a l!tt!e !onger!!!

Posted by: , (just , cause I'm tired of typing that other shit) at November 24, 2009 11:10 AM

I missed you too Big Daddy.

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at November 24, 2009 12:30 PM

Isn't Harry Potter a franchise more or less equally aimed at young men and women?

Posted by: AM at November 24, 2009 12:57 PM

Zito, welcome and hope you stick around for a while.

Oscar, I'll read your tripe later.

Posted by: Melody at November 24, 2009 1:15 PM

The Dark Knight was our Dark Knight.

Posted by: Alia at November 24, 2009 1:24 PM

Chickaboom, that was me crying on your shoulder during "Save a Prayer." I'll never forget the moments we shared.

I have seen Repo Man 37 times. I just looked in my pants. Yeah, real bajingo. Imagine.

Posted by: Stacy D at November 24, 2009 2:36 PM

Zitto: Ditto. Do stick around.

And I Loved the Wire. I watched the run as it aired, and again after it was over. Where did this rumor get started?

Posted by: Dustin Rowles at November 24, 2009 2:46 PM

Yeahhhh, Stacy D, good times. :)

Posted by: Chickaboom at November 24, 2009 3:07 PM

I will agree with most of Dustin's excellent points, esp. the one about the guy movies being just as artistically and intellectually barren as the chick movies, but will add (and someone else has probably already made this point):

The reason chicks don't watch movies like "Jurassic Park" isn't because there's nothing there for females, it's because females are encouraged (by other females, mostly) to segregate everything about themselves into these pathetic "girl worlds." They choose to watch crap (though I liked "Titanic" and still do, and don't give a fuck what anyone says about it) because they want to watch crap. They don't have to watch it. But yeah, a lot of it is peer pressure. It's easy to say "resist peer pressure," but a lot of grown-ups need to stop saying it, because from my observation, they're not any better at it (to judge by the number of people in my office who have owned SUVs and iPhones). Adults are just as easily manipulated as teenagers.

The fact is (sorry if this is disillusioning someone), "superhero" movies are by definition immature. Hero worship is immature, whether the hero is a male or female. The Batman movies are better done than Twilight, but hearing people going on about how awesome Batman is (as if Batman is a real person) sounds pretty much like teenage girls yapping about Twilight to me. I like Buffy as much as a normal adult, but I don't idolize Buffy or wish I could be her. And if I were to see SMG in public, I wouldn't rush over to her and ask for her autograph. Because I'm a grown-up and grown-ups don't do that shit. I watch the TV shows and movies because they're entertaining and I need some entertainment, but they're not real. The stories are the same made-up shit over and over, basically. Twilight is just Terminator for teenage girls. It's not as good, but that's just my opinion, and the teenage girls needn't give a shit what I think.

It's really amusing to hear from people who think that their hero worship is superior to everyone else's. It's the same shit. Whether it's athletics or politics or movies or TV or religion.

Posted by: Slash at November 24, 2009 3:27 PM

Zito, you can stick around as long as you like. Just forgive us our occasional back-patting.

Don't forget the licking. There's an awful lot of tongue in here.

Squirrelgripper is awesome, though my eyes tend to blend the middle together and I see "SquirrelRIPPER". Stupid eyes.

I like this post a lot, Dustin.

Posted by: Lauren at November 24, 2009 4:01 PM

Surely, Twilight isn't the end of culural civilization as we know it. However, it's a pretty problematic boon to it, simply because it screws with people's heads.

Basic truth on the demographics: Women tend to love romantic pieces with non threatening men who they can be saved/fawned over by, and men tend to love action fueled romps with women who can keep up/dominate/be saved by them if need be. So for the ladies we have Twilight, Dirty Dancing, and Sleepless in Seattle and for the men we have Dark Knight, Lethal Weapon, and True Lies. (Which also posits the theory that James Cameron truly is the king of the world. Seriously, you go from True Lies to Titanic? That's not a jump to shit, that's a jump to genius. The man bridged the gap!)

Now apply that demographic to an impressionably aged citizen: teenage girls who grew up with Dirty Dancing are going to want Patrick Swazye to tell their parents that nobody puts them in a corner. Girls who grew up with Sleepless in Seattle are going to want Tom Hanks to sweettalk them with his earnest charm and meet them on the top of the Empire State Building. Girls who grew up with Twilight are going to want Robert Pattinson to do everything for them, use minimal efforts of charm or free will to get anything in life, and generally end up as chattle to an undead emo kid. You can pretty much fill in the teenage boy angle with Gylenhall/Holmes, Russo, or Curtis.

So all in all, these differences aren't new, yes? What's changed? Answer: The level of intensity and aggressivity in these demographics. The world's changed in the past two decades, and as such the tastes have changed. What used to work is old hat, and as the nutty funsters of the entertainment industry know: old hat is #7 in the box office from Boston to Bejing. So something new has to happen. Something more intense. Something more "awesome", to paraphrase the auteur of a generation (of ADD) Michael Bay.

However, there's only so much "new" out there. So sometimes new has to be an old idea reinvented to fit a demographic's clamouring needs, hence reboots, updates, and remakes. So Twilight gets to be the new Dracula: a creature of the night who feasts upon hemoglobin takes a lover who is forbidden from him, but is at the same time destined to be with him. Bottom line: the idea is similar to the classic progenetor, but it's modified enough to be "new" and "fresh", and enjoyed by the generation it's targeted at.

As such, Twilight seizes the "purity" craze that's sweeping teen girls these days. The thoughtful notion that someone who truly loves you will wait until marriage to put out, and anyone who doesn't just doesn't get it. (Conversely: Dark Knight shows men that with brute force and excessive riches/intellect, you can conquer almost anything, so long as it isn't death or misleading moral dilemmas. Also: explosions and mental illness.)

So now you've got girls running around wanting to be saved from helpless oblivion by a mysterious douchebag, and you've got guys running around working on the "getting tough, rich and powerful" part of the Batman equation, without throwing in the intelligence. Is this REALLY how we want children to grow up? No, it's not. But if you want to change that, you have to do something about it. Coincidentally enough, it's the very thing that got us into this mess: reading.

Reading is good, but only as good as the material you're assigning/letting kids read. If you want your girl to really learn a lesson from a book, balance the Twilight by letting her read Harriet the Spy or even The Babysitter's Club. Sure, both were not exactly liberating, but both managed to at least have a universal core value at their hearts. (Otherwise, why would a boy read Harriet the Spy as a kid and recommend it as an adult? Also, crack open the Judy Blume. The woman could write.)

Your boy wants to be a caped menace? Let him read the comics, but let him read Angels and Demons or Hitchhiker's Guide. You don't always have to be violent (or, dare I say it, smart) to win your way through life. (And yes, Dan Brown is deriviative, but again, it's more substantial marshmallow fluff than just letting your kid read only Batman comics.)

Even better? Have kids switch it up a bit. Let your son read Harriet and your daughter read Hitchiker's Guide. Even better, encourage it! They'll have a better outlook on people and culture if you let them break gender stereotypes and just read. One last suggestion: balance the classic with the "new". Imagine a bunch of kids talking about how Dracula was so much better than Twilight or how cool it is that Robert Langdon can solve a puzzle to save the world without having to fire a gun. (Though, he'll still fire it if he needs to.)

So in conclusion, parents should be more attentive if they want their children to grow up right, Hollywood shouldn't be fueling such societal decay, more kids should be reading the right things (like Michael Crichton novels), and James Cameron owns our souls because he's mastered the black magic of moviemaking for the filmmakers and the masses.

GO SEE AVATAR IN IMAX 3D!

Posted by: Doctor Controversy at November 24, 2009 5:02 PM

And reading that comment, it looks like I don't have a chance in hell making it to the EE's with that. So to hedge my bets:

Ass fart fuck tits boobs melons Sophia Lindsey with an 'e' Dustin you suck Dustin you're awesome Dustin you're a monkey with a French accent Sarah Palin Sucks Obama Obama Obama Jensen Ackles Women Suck Men Blow You're all idiots I love you all.

(Please note: I've omitted most of the commas, so Mr. , would not think I was constantly calling his name.)

Posted by: Doctor Controversy at November 24, 2009 5:11 PM

Amenfro
*Fat ugly lesbian? Really? That's the best you can do? At least take the opportunity to use the term "dick mitten"! C'mon, dude!

The term the term lesbian implies she doesn't have sex with men, the other term implies she does. So one would not use both terms to describe the same individual. Unless you really believe that Gail King is just a "friend" as she claims and Steadman or whoever she's using as a beard now is actually in a relationship with her then and only then would your charming lexicological construct be apropos. Full marks on class though.

Posted by: OscarTamerz at November 24, 2009 5:17 PM

Basic truth on the demographics: Women tend to love romantic pieces with non threatening men who they can be saved/fawned over by, and men tend to love action fueled romps with women who can keep up/dominate/be saved by them if need be. So for the ladies we have Twilight, Dirty Dancing, and Sleepless in Seattle and for the men we have Dark Knight, Lethal Weapon, and True Lies. (Which also posits the theory that James Cameron truly is the king of the world. Seriously, you go from True Lies to Titanic? That's not a jump to shit, that's a jump to genius. The man bridged the gap!)

Now apply that demographic to an impressionably aged citizen: teenage girls who grew up with Dirty Dancing are going to want Patrick Swazye to tell their parents that nobody puts them in a corner. Girls who grew up with Sleepless in Seattle are going to want Tom Hanks to sweettalk them with his earnest charm and meet them on the top of the Empire State Building. Girls who grew up with Twilight are going to want Robert Pattinson to do everything for them, use minimal efforts of charm or free will to get anything in life, and generally end up as chattle to an undead emo kid. You can pretty much fill in the teenage boy angle with Gylenhall/Holmes, Russo, or Curtis.

Huh. I just want Otto to do me in the radioactive car. I want Daniel Plainview to drink my milkshake. I want Anton Chigurh to let me comb his bowl cut without offing me. I wanna ride the washing machine with Gael Garcia Bernal.

As my four year old daughter who wants to marry a Christian Cucumber wryly observes, "Funny huh?"

LISTEN FOOLS, it's just stupid! IT'S LOW GRADE! It's not the same Venn Diagram that slops up this shit as "Three and a Half Men" but it's the same statistical frequency. And I don't fret over it any more than I fret over the demographic who thinks its great to watch Disney's latest kinderwhore cavort on a stripper pole wearing Orthopedic Hooker Boots. Do I keep my daughter waay from its' reach? As long as I can. I have her convinced that Miley's teeth are made of Chiclets and the Jonas Brothers will upon looking directly in her eyes verily steal her soul. But sooner or later she might like things that suck.

Life is a freakin' Cabaret.

Posted by: Stacy D at November 24, 2009 6:28 PM

Oh screw this shit. I'm not going to read through all that--a lot of it already got my back up.

I liked the post, but one quibble, Dustin: quite a few girls also like the vampire and werewolf stuff, too. I don't care for the Twilight series but I find the idea of vampires and werewolves intriguing, though I know they do not exist.

slagzoo fuck you for this: The problem with it is that it teaches teenagers, particularly girls (who as you said are largely stupid and easily swayed by peer pressure) certain values that will only hurt them in life.


Oscartamerz Fuck you, too.

Posted by: Snuggiepants the Deathbringer at November 24, 2009 6:53 PM

"They’ll grow out of those Team Jacob T-Shirts one day soon, and in ten years time, they will look at pictures of themselves with a sort of proud embarrassment, the way 30-year-old women now look back on ribboned hair and jelly shoes."

Except it's also 30 and 40 year old women going bonkers over this Twilight stuff, not just teenage girls.

Posted by: Brubaker at November 24, 2009 7:25 PM

@Doc Controversy:

You lost me when you said "Angels and Demons". Dan Brown was mining the same compost heap Stephanie Meyers is mining now and peddling his pseudo-history wares as if they were reasonable.

BTW, an honest question: do women want product that's aimed at them exclusively regardless of its quality? I don't just like stuff because it's made for guys. I'd like it to be good...or funny...or scary...or etc.

Posted by: Fredo at November 24, 2009 9:04 PM

OMG!! Ginger Snaps 4 ever!!

Posted by: Trillion at November 24, 2009 9:39 PM

Fredo,

In short, no.

As a woman, I'm more likely to pay attention to things marketed towards women since lady-oriented products are designed to catch my eye, while male-oriented products are less so. But just because I see the pink hammer with a smaller grip in an aisle at Home Depot doesn't mean that I will choose that hammer specifically, though the smaller grip is nice. It just means that it's the first one that I notice.

I think many women want better developed characters or storylines for women, without films necessarily devolving into a romantic comedies or contemporary melodrama. The biggest films of the last few years are mostly guy-oriented movies of varying quality. This is not to say that there weren't satisfying female roles in those films, but they are still stories centered around male characters, often confronting issues of masculinity and power. Alternately, where male issues being explored by dudes was not the primary focus, female characters are often side-players to whatever main action is going on. At least with a romantic comedy -- however trite and stereotypical -- there are female main characters with their own independent storylines. That's where part of the draw is.

Posted by: amenfro at November 24, 2009 9:42 PM

Dr Controversy your kindness in such matters is appreciated but Mr Period Mr Colon Mr Apostrophe and Mr Quotation Mark keep saying whos asking for me please spare their sanity as well thank you

Posted by: , (just , cause I'm tired of typing that other shit) at November 24, 2009 11:10 PM

I was at work the other day, and listening to a coworker go on about how she planned to watch new moon with her friend, complaining about her boyfriend not joining them, just like when the '27 dresses', or the back when the 'sex and the city' movie came out...

women only have shitty movies to pine for, at least men get a choice between shitty movies and visionary directors (almost all male)

I don't know why hollywood doesn't go after these untapped markets- there's money out there in 'women's' movies...just look what how tylor perry's craptastic black church movies made him rich man

It seems like we had far richer women's movies and roles back in the 40s,50s and 60s. the best female-movie I saw lately was 'An Education..which seems like a anomaly.

on the other hand, I don't know it seems like women are reading a lot more than men these days .. I mean most books are marketed to and read by women..When's the last time you saw a guy reading a novel?

Posted by: tinman at November 25, 2009 3:31 PM

No genius has ever taken a nap.

No genius has ever spent idle hours on flights of fancy or ennui.

There has never been a 'voice of a generation' who has used that golden throat to hurl pejoratives or colloquialisms.

No hobbies, peccadilloes, guilty pleasures, or secret shames have ever been countenanced by the brilliant, and Montaigne's cat was likely a mystic oracle.

Erdos never tasted refined sugar, Newton never thought about kippers.

Mozart never laughed at an inappropriate joke, Shakespeare never made one.

Today, for the first time in history, people are engaging in less-than-transcendance, free time, mindless entertainment. And we'll never get out alive.

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at November 26, 2009 1:40 AM

Im so sick of people being shocked that movies like Titanic and Twilight do well in the movie theatre. Have you been living in a hole? There has been a market for ridiculous teenage love stories for decades.

I cant believe you actually had to dedicate time out of your life to write an article about how teenagers will buy into stupid crap and it doesnt mean the world is going to end. How insightful of you....

Posted by: blahblahblah at November 30, 2009 4:18 PM

Really awesome - thanks for this, I love this kind of stuff :)

Posted by: Katrina Evenson at January 19, 2010 5:31 PM





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