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10 Things We Learned From The Red Wine Wedding Episode Of "Game Of Thrones": Spoiler Whore and Book Reader Edition

By Joanna Robinson | TV Reviews | May 22, 2013 | Comments ()


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Author's Note: Hey folks! We're back with a book spoiler-heavy "Game Of Thrones" rundown. If you're looking for eloquent or sophisticated analysis, I suggest you head on over to TK's superlative Monday recap. This post serves mainly as an outlet for all your pent-up frustrations at having to tip-toe around your book knowledge lest you spoil a "Game Of Thrones" newbie. So, in case it isn't clear, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED BY BOOK KNOWLEDGE OR SOME INSIDER SHOW INFO, GET OUT OF HERE. SERIOUSLY, WHAT IN THE SEVEN 'ELLS ARE YOU DOING HERE? LEAVE LEST I SIC MY DRAGON ON YOU!

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Are they gone? Phew. Anything goes in the comments, folks. We're hoping this will help curb some of your urges to spoil in the regular recap. Have at it!--JR

1. Sometimes They Throw Things In Just For You Book Nerds: There are obviously countless things from the books that don't make it into the show. Details and backstories and characters galore fall by the wayside. But every so often there are little details, little visual moments that seem tailor-made just for the book readers. In this episode, outside Sam and Gilly's lean-to, there was a Weirwood tree, as there is in the book. The significance of the tree is largely lost on Show Watchers so you can bet that little detail is just for you, folks.
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Similarly, the focus on Daario's dagger. Yeah they changed a lot about Daario, and we'll get to that, but I appreciate the fun the props department had with the hilt on this blade.
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2. Is Gendry A Never Nude? It's no mystery why they changed the interaction between the Baratheon Bastard and Melisandre to include a sexual encounter: to display Carice van Houten's considerable assets. We get it. "Game Of Thrones" loves naked ladies. But did she really engage in some coitus interruptus with Gendry while he KEPT HIS PANTS ON? Those are some pretty hefty nudity double standards.
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Important, probing question I've asked elsewhere. Which of the leaches do you think had the penis blood in it? Surely that's the most potent leech of all.
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3. Cersei Lannister, Diplomat I adore how much the Tyrell's get under Cersei's skin and how little effort she puts into concealing it. They're setting up Cersei's complete meltdown so beautifully and I cannot wait. No, Cersei was never a treat, but she used to have a better grip on her mask. It's slipping. I also loved that we got the story of "The Rains Of Castamere." That was fun.
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4. Things Are Looking Up For Arya, RIGHT?! Oh, poor Show Watchers. Arya's little smile as she and The Hound make their way towards The Twins? Gut wrenching. It's a similar bait and switch that we Book Readers felt, for sure. But I wonder when the Show Watchers are going to understand that there are no happy endings. For anyone. Ever. In two weeks, right?
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5. Sam The Slayer I really dislike the way they shuffled this plotline around. A) Sam needed to have his slayer moment in front of his fellow Watchmen. B) I much preferred how, in the book, Sam and Gilly are attacked by Wight Watchmen. Wouldn't the scene have resonated more deeply if Sam had been battling his old friends/foes? C) DID THEY REALLY NEED TO MAKE HIM LEAVE THE DRAGONGLASS DAGGER BEHIND? In the book the obsidian blade shatters during this encounter so it makes sense Sam would be without. But in this scene he just straight up leaves the blade on the ground causing Show Watchers to shake their head at what they perceive to be Sam's continued stupidity. However, the crows were amazing and I'm excited for Coldhands who has to show up in the finale. Right? RIGHT?
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6. Did Joffrey Pimp Walk Sansa Down The Aisle? The Kristen Stewart-esque lip bite was bad, but the pimp walk was worse. Add to that the stool prank and the little prima nocte rape threat and King Joff was in fiiiiine form. Makes you wish the Purple Wedding were coming next week instead of the Red, no?
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7. I Want To Sit Next To Olenna Tyrell At Every Wedding Of all the side characters that have been fleshed out for the show Olenna Tyrell is by far the best. Her little incestuous family tree rundown was pure comedy gold. (As were the sulky reactions from Margaery and Loras.) What do you think? Do you like the extra material they've given Rigg or do you feel the time spent on her would be better spent on other characters? Maybe more Bran scenes?
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8. The Dread Wedding: It's odd that they pushed this wedding back so far in the season but I'm glad they devoted as much time to it as they did. The interplay between all the key players (Stark, Lannister and Tyrell) was delicious. Dinklage, of course, stole the whole show but Sophie Turner's bleak little face should not be underestimated. Great stuff.
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9. Why On Earth Is Sansa So Distrustful Of Tyrion!?! Why indeed.
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10. Daenerys Targaryen: FoamBorn I was on my soap box a little earlier in the week about the nudity in this scene and how it's not in the book and blah blah blah boobs. In the meantime two excellent points have been raised in defense of the Khaleesi bath. a) There's that scene at the beginning of A Storm Of Swords where Dany is naked as a jaybird talking to Jorah in her cabin. Of course, that scene ends a bit differently than this one did and I'm not sure why we didn't get our Jorah/Dany smooch. But that's neither here nor there. b) There are many who think the contrast between the vulnerability of Dany's position and the strength she displays made for compelling television. What do you think? Gratuitous or no?
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New Character Rundown:

1. Mero aka The Titan's Bastard: God this guy was perfect. I regret we only had one episode with his piggishness.
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2. Daario: Well, okay, they screwed the pooch on the look here. Big time. Of course, Show Watchers would never have been able to take Daario seriously if he had showed up all gold mustachios and blue beards. P.S. TK sent me this amazing video of the actor who plays Daario rapping.
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3. That Third Mercenary: I'm not even bothering to look him up. His head made a satisfactory thunk, though. So that's nice.
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4. High Septon Pressley
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Best Line
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Best Dressed The costumers said they based Tywin's fancy coat on the white and gold leathers Jaime Lannister wore in Season 1. It's a gorgeous garment.
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Best Facial Expression
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Favorite Random Image Of The Week
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Next Week On Game Of Thrones
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Joanna Robinson is the God of Snits and Whine. Findher on Twitter, podcasting about "Game Of Thrones" or generally mucking about. Send a raven, won't you?



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Comments Are Welcome, Jerks Will Be Banned


  • samforsyth

    Make with the Rains of Castamere Edition! I mean "Please, make with the..."

  • Maddy

    I completely forgot about Joffrey saying that to her. Good to see some defence of Sansa - all the people who are like why can't she see how awesome Tyrion is? Are you serious? Granted, show Tyrion is much nicer (and better looking) and she's had more time to process the wedding happening rather than it literally happening within 2 seconds of her finding out about it, but he is still the kindest member of the family who killed her father, and from her point of view she is absolutely right not to trust him! Just because we as readers (and viewers) like Tyrion doesn't mean that it makes sense for Sansa as a character to trust or like him. Anyway rant over! Bring on the Red Wedding and the twitter explosion!

  • competitivenonfiction

    Thoughts on the Deathwatch post? It's shockingly accurate this time and while a part of me feels that the blow will be softened by the fact that people can see the way the wind's blowing, I'm still cringing at the imminent global internet meltdown.

  • Lbeees

    Bran's story is the most boring. I love the Queen of Thorns... more of her!

  • Morgan_LaFai

    My gods where are the wolves. I really miss them. They should be every where. Or at least in all the scenes with the sons, since the daughters both lost theirs.

    Moving on, how is the world is Sam going to be the slayer if no one but a wildling's whore saw him do it? For the record, I use "wildling's whore" not because that is how I feel about her, but because I imagine that is how the Watch will regard her.

    Finally, I loved this episode but I have a slight beef with your, and the show's, dismissal of the third mercenary, Prendahl na Ghezn, played by the amazing Ramon Tikaram. Your dismissal is understandable given the underwhelming role the character had, but I love the actor and was really excited to see him on the show. He is high on my list of favorite UK actors that just don't get the work they deserve. Or maybe it is all in my head based on the love I had for Kama Sutra: A Tale of Love.

  • foolsage

    Ohhh, thanks for that. I knew I'd seen the actor playing Prendahl before.

  • Fabius_Maximus

    Balon Greyjoy? Who was that again..?

    They didn't even mention that he declared himself king. Minor detail, yes, but non-readers will ask themselves why he was included in the ritual (if they remember him at all).

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Last season, they referred to Balon Greyjoy declarations and that it was now the war of the Five Kings. Balon was one of those kings. (Mance might have been a sixth, but the South had no interest in details north of the wall.)

  • Fabius_Maximus

    Okay, but that was last season. Who's going to remember that (apart from you ;) )?

  • Pat Sponaugle

    It might have been informative to have a heartbeat moment for Balon declaring himself king. We've not had any real reminders that the Iron Islanders are even occupying parts of the north. I don't think it was completely out of the blue, but we do have some common ground here.

  • Mythra Sun

    I thought he mentioned it in one of the episodes last year when Theon went back to the islands, no? He stated that he was not going to bend the knee to any king.

  • Fabius_Maximus

    That was last season, and they didn't mention he would call himself king.

  • Mythra Sun

    You are right. I stand corrected. I always have to tell my show watcher friends to PAY ATTENTION(!!!) to every conversation and word because it contains important direct information or inference to a future or past plotline.

  • Fabius_Maximus

    Well, it's not their fault. Stuff like this has to be emphasized in the show to make an impact. And it seems that I was wrong about him making himself king.

  • foolsage

    Re: Sam the Slayer: in the book, the dagger does not shatter. I've seen several people make this claim and I'm not sure where it originates.

    From A Storm of Swords, ch 18:

    "Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

    "Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.

    Grenn pulled Sam to his feet, checked Small Paul for a pulse and closed his eyes, then snatched up the dagger again. This time he was able to hold it."

  • christopherdlc

    I think people are saying this because a second book scene is missing, where Sam kills his brothers who were turned into white walkers. He shatters the blade against his zombified brothers mail. Then Sam lights him on fire. I guess this means Sam losing the dagger is important?

  • JoannaRobinson

    That's what I meant, that it shatters in the second book scene, underneath the Weirwood tree.

  • Guest

    I got yo back

  • Fabius_Maximus

    Well, they still fucked Sam's story up, shattering dagger or not. It's stupid to just leave it there.

  • foolsage

    Agreed. I think almost all of us saw him leave the dagger and yelled "No you idiot, don't leave it... ergh!" Or something like that, anyhow.

  • mswas

    Valar Natatoris - all men must swim

  • Luke Anthony Matthews

    Did they have to make Dario so ugly?

  • Strand

    Boy is the next episode going to be a downer.

  • Mimi Honeycutt

    Speculation on Dave's reaction to the Red Wedding?

    My tumblr dashboard is going to shortcircuit from all the gifs. I expect a good number to be Supernatural-themed sobbing ones.

  • Angie Ramos

    I'm a little meh about the actor they chose to play Daario.Granted I didn't really love that character in the books either but if we're going to be stuck with him for a while it would have been nice if he was a little more interesting/compelling.

  • Ofir Fishkin

    just wanted to say that when david chen said that things look up for arya i nearly cried. it made me remember i used to have hope too.

  • Ian Fay

    Is the weirwood tree Sam and Gilly camped near the same tree Jon and Sam took their oaths under?

    That would imply they're pretty close to The Wall.

  • Ashley

    I'm sorry but book sam is so much worse than tv sam joanna. Tv sam is much MUCH braver. I mean sam had to be damn near dragged out of crasters and honestly it would've been character assassination if they did it in the book because he caused the death of another. Plus I don't think his character needed to be seen killing an other by a brother its not like they believed him anyway so it is fine that gilly is the witness.

  • "Which of the leaches do you think had the penis blood in it? Surely that’s the most potent leech of all."

    Obviously, Joffrey, because he's such a dick.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I just watched that scene, and not just because Missy was naked in it. Let's just go with that.

    Anyway, the names are in this order: Robb, Balon, and Joffrey. Melisandre puts the leeches on Gendry and removes them in the same order, chest, stomach, groin. For poetic symmetry, you might argue that the order of leeches matches the names, so Robb gets the chest, Balon the gut, and Joffrey the crotch leech.

    But it makes more sense (to me) that the last leech put into the bowl is the first leech pulled out and tossed on the brazier, since it might be on top. (Sure, leeches wiggle and this is totally unscientific, but we Sponaugles are never wrong when it comes to bastard-blood-filled leeches. Or at least this might be the first time.)

    Anyway, if the penis-blood leech is on top, and pulled out first, it was used to invoke the curse on Robb Stark.

    I believe Balon Greyjoy is the first of the kings to be reported dead in the books, since Robb developed an excellent strategy to retake the north in response to the news that Balon was reported dead and the Ironmen captains had returned to the Isles. So if someone wants to argue that the leech with the most vital blood caused the first death (not a bad argument) then that implies that the second leech was the leech attached briefly to Gendry's trousered junk.

    I vote Robb got the naughtiest leech, but I can't argue against anyone else's opinion. Stannis wouldn't approve of my waffling nature, but it is what it is.

  • Tinkerville

    I truly love the thought you put into this. Bravo.

    http://img.pandawhale.com/2949...

  • Pat Sponaugle

    You are my newest most favorite person, Tinkerville. Thank you!

  • Finally: mmmmmmm, Gendry. I was so glad we could see him shirtless again.

  • annie

    The scene with Dany and Daario (D/D!) reminds me of a scene from Rome with, I believe, Marc Antony and Lucius Vorenus with Antony balls naked as he is bathed by a slave. James Purefoy said that he liked that scene because while he was naked, he was still the powerful, dominating force between the two of them.

  • Laura

    Not sure who to reply to on the gratuitous nudity thread, but as a completely hetero woman, I would still rather see female nudity (gratuitous or not) than male. Don't get me wrong, give me all the bare chests, back, and butts you want, but I don't particularly care to see wangs flopping all over the TV screen. Perhaps it IS because the female parts are all tucked away, I don't really know. Just a personal preference I guess. And I do realize I am not getting at the heart of the debate here.

  • Basil Papademos

    Game of White Clones. Another wizards, warriors and wankers soap opera for white people who feel powerless in the face of a rapidly changing world that is leaving white Western culture behind. Feh.

  • foolsage

    It's great to have an opinion, but only if that opinion is based on actual knowledge of some sort. I don't care if your opinion is wholly subjective; that's fine. I don't care if you love the show or hate it. I do care if your opinion is based on wild conjecture and cemented in ignorance, because that makes your opinion functionally worthless.

    Feh indeed.

  • Mythra Sun

    Be careful you don't fall off your soapbox. It's weird that you feel the need to comment on a thread for a "soap opera for white people".

  • Salad_Is_Murder

    Just about everything you've said is wrong. Your 'facts' and statistics are grossly misrepresented and inflated and it's quite obvious you know little to nothing about what you're talking about. You should probably just leave and not come back.

  • bimboden

    If we wanted to read/watch a historically accurate portrayal of medieval life, we probably wouldn't be very interested in a story set in a fictional place and time where dragons, wargs, white walkers, demon-smoke killer babies and more exist. I personally think GRRM did an excellent job of capturing that era and the challenges of living in the time, but I can't figure out for the life of me why you think a fantasy novel needs to specifically address each and every bit of the economic, social, physical, and agricultural difficulties they faced in the real-life Middle Ages.

  • Tinkerville

    Uh... have you actually seen the show? Because it includes every single thing you listed, so I'm not exactly sure what your argument is here.

    Game of Thrones is unspeakably brutal, horrific, and devoid of any glorifying of "quasi-medieval" times. It's about power and how different people try to achieve it. It's not about presenting a pretty, magical, Camelot-like place where we all secretly wish we could live.

  • Alan

    that wouldn't be very entertaining though

  • Mimi Honeycutt

    There is a GIFset to be made involving the Red Wedding and the wedding (rehearsal) massacre from Kill Bill. It needs to be made!

    Unf, Tywin's coat is so gorgeous. Lannister men (including Joffers) know how to dress.

    I wonder if the next episode will also be when Ramsay reveals his identity. My heart's going to break if he casually drops to Theon that Robb has been butchered.

    As a bookreader, I felt punked when I realized Tyrion really was as drunk as he seemed. In the books he's mostly faking. Thank you for pointing out why Sansa had every reason to be suspicious when he said he'd never hurt her. Joffrey said it toooo.

    I'm psyched (in a horrible gutwrenching way) for when Arya and the Hound arrive at the wedding. That part made me way sadder than Catelyn's POV.

  • christopherdlc

    Agree about Ayra. This is why I am will be pissed if the F-up her story.

  • Mimi Honeycutt

    Yeah! Good Guy Sandor gets no thanks. (I'm thinking her stabby line comes after it?)

  • sean

    Did we all agree last week that we need to video the reactions of our non-book reading friends and family when you know what happens? Can we make that happen?

  • Damn, I wish there was some way I could film my husband as he watches it. But that'd just make him deeply suspicious.

  • Do you not have a little webcam that could be set up conveniently? Or just happen to leave the laptop open with the camera on?

  • Who's creating the Tumblr page?

  • Tinkerville

    Hell yes. I want to see a compilation of all of them set to ELO's Don't Bring Me Down.

  • Artemis

    Olenna is magnificent and I love Tyrion forever, but I think Jack Gleeson is the most underrated actor on this show. Every single second he's on camera he's an unbelievable shit, even when he isn't moving or saying anything, and yet it hasn't gotten irritating or one-note yet. Every week there's a new sneer or smirk or high-pitched laugh that makes me want to smack him in the face, but I enjoy every minute of it. Seriously well played.

    I'm an ardent Sansa defender, and will cut the next person who talks shit about her. I was so weirdly proud of her in that bedroom scene -- she's FOURTEEN and about to lose her virginity against her will to a guy whose family has destroyed her life and who she is not at all attracted to and who is a notorious lecher and falling-down drunk, and she just downs a glass of wine and undresses with her chin up. She might have cried about it beforehand, but when it came down to it there were no tears or whining, she was going to do what she was supposed to with her dignity intact. Well played.

  • Kala

    YES. One hundred times over, yes.

  • MissAmynae

    I'm right there with you regarding Sansa. I saw echoes of Catelyn's teachings- Family, Honor, Duty. Plus, if Tyrion gets her with child, Joffrey can't. She's learning, little step by little step, to look out for herself.

  • Even more:

    "Is that wise, my lord?"
    "Tyrion. You can call me Tyrion."
    "Is that wise, Tyrion?"

    Hmm, that is called fronting up.

  • Tinkerville

    Similar to Joffrey, I don't think Sophie Turner gets nearly the amount of acting credit she deserves since Sansa gets so much flack as a character.

  • The_Ghost_of_Bo_Crowder

    There's an all too common theme occurring where actors (mostly the women too it has to be said) tend to carry the can when the characters they play are either supposed to be unlikeable or get temporarily stuck in story ruts.

    Emilia Clarke, Sophie Turner and Lena Headey have all suffered from unfair criticism a bit. All three have really delivered when given something strong to work with.

    I'm looking forward to seeing Turner work with Sansa's older and wiser Alayne Stone, and Cersei's descent into loopiness. No doubt we'll also probably see the tide turn against Clarke again when Dany gets marooned in Meereen.

  • BlackRabbit

    Am I the only one who's brain starts playing that Billy Idol song whenever the "Red Wedding" is mentioned?

  • foolsage

    I'm glad to know I'm not alone there.

    "There is nothin' fair in this world
    There is nothin' safe in this world
    And there's nothin' sure in this world
    And there's nothin' pure in this world
    Look for something left in this world
    Start again..."

  • We are not alone.

  • BlackRabbit

    "Whose", dammit.

  • I can't believe the Red Wedding is SO CLOSE.

  • sean

    10 days til the internet explodes and burns down. Oh, how glorious it shall be.

  • That sounds so much better than '2 weeks.' Breaaathe.

  • So, the giant group of crows with Sam and Gilly--that's Coldhands, right? HAS to be. And I wonder if that means we'll finally get to see if Coldhands is or isn't Benjen Stark.

    And I do not get the ranting about Daario. He's just supposed to be a really hot, really charming guy who's really full of himself, no? HOW did they get that wrong? He has the smirk, he's got the hotness, him and Dany have great chemistry already...what else do you want?

    Also, Tyrion and Joffrey screaming at each other was AMAZING. My husband and I both went "HOLY SHIT!" at the same time and were cackling and whooping. That was a mighty bit of acting right there.

  • Carey Adams

    Wait, what? I'm pretty sure Coldhands isn't Benjen in the books, right? Are you suggesting they'll make him Benjen just for the show?

  • I thought it was a common theory that he's Benjen.

  • John G.

    It is an EXTREMELY common theory. It has still not been disproven. Although, in the show, I'm sure they will just cover his face and mask his voice.

  • manting

    benjen is coldhands. He wears the blacks of a brother of the watch. He knows the location of the black gate. He knows a brother can pass through it and how to do it. He is also the one that left the cache of obsidian for Jon to find. Theres more but Im tired.

  • foolsage

    In ADwD, Bran asks Leaf if Coldhands will join them. Leaf says "He cannot come". "They'll kill him," Bran says, and Leaf replies "No. They killed him long ago."

    This does not fit with the Benjen Stark theory. Benjen disappeared during A Game of Thrones (remember, we saw him at the beginning in Winterfell). That is not "long ago" even to someone young like Bran, and definitely not to someone like Leaf, who claims to be 200 years old.

  • manting

    you make a good point but all the evidence points to a brother of the nights watch. Also remember at least two years have passed since his disappearance. So its not long in terms of children of the forest but still a long time. If it is not Benjen then who?

  • foolsage

    Frankly, I'm unsure. He's (or was) a Brother of the Night's Watch, but has been dead for a long time. There are theories that Coldhands might be e.g. Lord Commander Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, but we simply don't have enough evidence to identify him now.

  • manting

    we know that Bloodraven is not cold hands - hes the guy in the weirwood throne teaching Bran. Of that I am sure.

  • manting

    Blood raven is the dude in the wierwood throne training bran- that I am sure of

  • bimboden

    Can't be Benjen though, right? They say that Coldhands was killed 'long ago', but Benjen's only been gone/missing/dead(?) for something like 2 or 3 years. That doesn't work... It would be ah-maze-un and exactly what I hoped for, but I don't think it works.

    Also, whenever men of the Night's Watch have become Whites, others have recognized who they were, so wouldn't Bran have recognized Coldhands as Uncle Ben?

  • John G.

    The counter to that complaint is that Coldhands always has his face covered, and the comment about "long ago" is relative, since it's a child of the forest who says that, and time is probably experienced differently for them. There's also some clue that time passes strangely inside the caves of the children. I have gone back and forth on it, but what always drives me back is how often Jon mentions that Benjen has still not been found, that his body has not been found, that he's still out there somewhere. I feel like he would have showed up dead if he was dead, and Coldhands was able to open the secret door under the wall that only a night's watchmen can open. My personal favorite theory is that coldhands is the long dead Night's King who married a wight in the time of heroes.

  • Right? After 'Lady Stoneheart', I now believe no one's alive until we see a body.

    So maybe Coldhands isn't Benjen, but I'd bet good money that Benjen is alive somewhere.

  • I guess I missed that part. That makes it boring.

    And Coldhands was always "mysteriously" covered up, so I thought it's only logical that it's someone we know.

    But I guess it doesn't matter much, does it? Coldhands goes away pretty quickly.

  • 724wd

    to the nudity issue, in the book, doesn't Dany spend a lot of time with one boob hanging out in the name of localized fashion? at least we're not getting that here

  • sean

    "at least" WTF? That would make my year.

  • Thank goodness for that.

  • This blasphemy will not stand

  • Scorptilicus

    BTW, yeah, I thought for sure we'd be getting a Gendry full frontal. Instead, we just get the very top and then a cut away. Not even any Dempsie bum. If I were watching for the man candy, I'd feel a little gypped.

  • lowercase_ryan

    I think they should be able to show a cock, but every time they do there is an unwritten rule on the show that says it needs to get cut off the same episode.

  • foolsage

    Hodor? Hodor.

  • John G.

    no, that rule is written. It's actually rule #2. Rule #1 is that for every ass cheek of a man, you get at least six totally naked women and they have to be touching or fucking or both.

  • Sherry

    True enough. In which case the male actors probably have a provision in their contracts stating that they get to keep theirs.

  • Scorptilicus

    I liked the parallel we get with the naked, completely confident Dany emerging out of the bath (and Daario admirably maintaining eye contact) to the last time we'd seen her like that, in her first scene of the show where she's so numb and broken. She's certainly come a long way.

  • Kristobel

    Oh man, was I bummed about Daario. I think the whole point of his badassery is that he dresses like a super dandy (or a Capitol character from Hunger Games, what) and is still an ice cold killer. BOO, show. Boo, I say. I understand not having a blue beard, but at least the clothes? Come ON, you know the costuming dept would have had a blast with that.

  • Book Daario was ridiculous. My problem is I thought this guy looks like the stoner slacker in high school, who was cocksure enough to use bravado to sweet talk the unwitting ladies, but there was little behind the facade. I would have thought something more like:

    http://weheartit.com/entry/597...

  • Batesian

    All right, all right, all right.

  • Sherry

    Eh, as a completely shallow female reader/watcher, I never got the Daario attraction in the books. He just seemed like a dandified asshole, existing mostly to create tension for Jorah. Here, at least, he's a pretty (presumable) asshole, and given that tv Jorah is a hell of a lot better-looking than book Jorah was described as, he needed to be good-looking. So it's a bit more justifiable for me, at least, this way.

  • The_Ghost_of_Bo_Crowder

    Because no women ever prefer a dandified asshole.

    *Past pain dragged up. Cries.*

  • competitivenonfiction

    Yeah, everytime I read about Daario, I kept thinking "him, really?"

  • Sherry

    Exactly! This one has a bit of a Legolas vibe but I can live with that.

  • Juwan Dickerson

    Ok I apologize in advance but I feel the need to go on a bit of a rant here but I feel the need to say something about the constant nitpicking about the "gratuitous" nudity on the show. I do understand that Joanna in conjunction with Dave have found that the show's use of female nudity problematic and unnecessary and Joanna has questioned the artistic choices in the writers room to show female nudity. However, in this past episode the nitpicking on the podcast just became a bit much. Again apologies if it may sound like I'm picking on Joanna or if it comes across as I'm speaking from some Hetero Male privilege but enough is enough.

    I won't pretend to know what was in the minds of the writers and producers on the show when they wrote those scenes but I don't think it's as simple as they just wanted to show some T&A. Sure this is HBO we're talking about but I'd like to think Game of Thrones is a step above say True Blood and not all the nudity is for just simple titilation.

    For example: The scene with Gendry you describe as
    a double standard because they showed Melisandre all nude but it wasn't just to show of the actresses assets. For one thing I do disagree with Joanna's description of Gendry on the podcast as “a sickly boy,” when in the show has Gendry ever been depicted as sickly? First of all look at him, and Gendry/Edric has been shown/described as strong like Robert nothing about him is weak and sickly and I question why Joanna would describe him that way in comparison to what happened in that scene. The point that was made before was that she had to lure him into being vulnerable and let down his guard so that she can get what she needed from him, something that he wouldn’t have given up at least without a fight. Sure she could have the guards come in and hold him down so she could leech him but would have defeated what she already set up. At the risk of sounding sexist, but what is and historically has been the most effective way for a woman to put a man, especially a formable one in a vulnerable and submissive position to her and have him let down his guard? By using her feminine wiles and sexuality to seduce him into submission, she used him just like she used Stannis in season two to further her agenda. I believe that was the “artistic purpose” of that scene.

    I’m glad that Joanna reconsidered her stance about the Daenerys nude scene and I was going to make the same point. Daenerys is a woman who is aware of her sexuality and how to wield it, which is how she conquered Khal Drogo. Darrio’s desire is to seduce Dany and make her want him she knows this by looking at him looking at her (one could surmise). When he comes to her and sees her naked and vulnerable she turns his desire against him, and makes him swear to her therefore putting him in his place and making
    him submissive to her.

    I admit that sometimes the nudity in the show has been unnecessary titillation at times but like the emailer said on the podcast the show is entertainment and it is HBO. But it’s not really all that gratuitous I mean really have you seen True Blood?! LOL. But please let’s not go overboard with the nitpicking and using “it wasn’t in the book” as an end all be all argument. The show can’t just be the literal translation from book to screen all the time. And to tell the truth if it was, then there are much more egregious and problematic depictions of women and sexual violence on
    the page than HBO can and probably would never show.

    Rant over, and don’t get me wrong I do love what Joanna and Dave are doing with the podcast. Just wanted to express my opinion, sorry to be long winded here.

  • smuch

    But it would have made sense for Gendry's pants to come off pre-sex. And naked Gendry would have been even *more* vulnerable. Instead, we saw a flash of the base of his peen, while Mel was starkers for whole minutes. It felt unbalanced and unnecessary.

    I think what's important in your scenario is Gendry's *reaction* to her nudity, and it's possible to show that without BOOBS! FOREVER! The lingering on her nakedness was excessive. It might have worked better if it were framed like Brienne in the tub, which I thought was handled perfectly. We got that she was naked, but they didn't use it as an excuse to show her nipples for five minutes. It was about Jaime's reaction and moving the scene to a different emotional level.

  • Artemis

    Sure, the show provided an explanation for why, for example, Melisandre needed to get all naked to charm some blood out of Gendry. But you're just accepting that things had to work that way, when the show could very well have decided to do things differently: in the books, Melisandre just takes the blood using leeches, presumably while Stannis' men hold Edric (playing the same role Gendry did here) down. The show made a conscious decision to add her getting naked and writhing around on a half-clothed Gendry, and then came up with some reason to explain why it was necessary. The fact that the show deviated from the books isn't itself a bad thing, but the response to "the show is adding unnecessary nudity" can't be "but the show made up a reason, unrelated to the broader plot, for why the nudity was necessary!"

    I like the show quite a bit better than the books by now, but I still find some of the adaptation choices to be questionable, and most of what I object to has to do with the use of nudity. I am totally cool with nudity that serves the plot, particularly when it's not all one-note. I really liked the change with Dany this week, for example, because that was using the nudity to emphasize her strength in a position that would normally be vulnerable and was a nice contrast with her very first scene in the show. I similarly liked it when Brienne stood up naked in the tub with Jamie, because it was done in contrast to her obviously discomfort with being naked with him a few minutes earlier and emphasized how angry and upset she was.

    But a lot of the nudity that's been added to the show has been, as you say, women using their feminine wiles to trick men. And that's *a* way that women can have power, but it's far from the only way. One reason I like these books is that I think GRRM is -- particularly for his genre -- doing an exceptional job of showing women occupying all different types of roles. A lot of fantasy has only two types of women, the sweet innocent ones and the sexy!scheming ones. ASOIAF shows women being kick-ass in all different kinds of ways: Brienne and Ygritte and Asha with physical strength, Dany as a military commander and leader, Arya with her ability to survive anywhere and now her assassin training, Sansa by playing the sweet innocent girl role no matter what, Cat as a devoted wife and mother, Cersei by being ruthless as fuck, Olenna by just being smarter than anyone else, Melisandre by channeling the god, etc. The show too often falls back on the feminine wiles thing, and while it works for me when it's someone like Margaery -- who wasn't fleshed out in the books at all, and doesn't have another obvious way of turning things to her advantage -- it irritates me when it's a character who WASN'T like that in the books. Melisandre doesn't need to be stripping for and humping some teenage boy who is 100% under Stannis' control, it's beneath her and unnecessary.

    Similarly, I didn't need to see two naked ladies rubbing up on Theon last week, or Ros getting it on with another prostitute in season one so that Littlefinger could sexposition about things. When the nudity on this show works, it's because it feels organic. Melisandre this week, like the scene last week, felt like it had been shoehorned in by HBO's CEO of Tits. The fact that the show went "oh yeah, we need him to feel happy so his blood will be extra good" didn't make that scene any less eye-roll-inducing for me. (Especially since that didn't even make sense -- she just used sex to get Gendry tied up, but he started freaking out at the leeches anyway, I don't see why having soldiers grab him and sticking the leeches on right away wouldn't have had the same effect.)

  • Yocean

    I think in the book Tyrion's wedding came after Red Wedding?

  • Ozioma

    No, it was before. Because Tyrion had to deliver the news to her in their bedchambers.

  • Sherry

    Holy cow, there's another me on here! Or I'm living an alternate life that I know nothing about.

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