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#YesAll Women, #YesAllPeople and the Dangers of Misunderstanding Feminism

By Courtney Enlow | Think Pieces | May 27, 2014 | Comments ()


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Yesterday, something kind of beautiful happened on Twitter of all places. Women spent a beautiful Memorial Day sharing stories—stories we all share. Stories of harassment and abuse and the risk that comes with just living as a women. In this hashtag, #YesAllWomen, we took the power from these stories and gave that power to each other. And it was spectacular. In the strangest, smallest way, it felt like revolution.

Then, another hashtag started: #YesAllPeople. #YesAllPeople, seeming as well-intentioned as it was misguided, purported to be about the end of oppression for everyone—not just women—and the championing of equality for everyone.

And here’s why that was bullshit.

Here is what I said on Twitter in response to #YesAllPeople:

yesallpeople.jpg

Later in the day, I made a series of mistakes. Mistake 1: I engaged with one of the #YesAllPeople tweeters who called me sexist (in a sea of positivity, there were only a few who called me out directly). I attempted to reason with him. I told him I agreed with him on several of his points and tried to use this common ground to get him to see eye to eye with me, saying essentially “women have certain, unique experiences, as do races, sexualities, etc. That’s what this is about.” He responded, saying essentially, “unless you are referring to child birth and puberty, I don’t see any other differences.”

I knew that there existed people who did not believe in misogyny. But this was the first time I recall really seeing it, and I was so caught off-guard by the complete inability and refusal to see it. So I made Mistake 2: I deleted all my tweets to this person, then blocked him. I don’t regret that second part. I didn’t delete them because I couldn’t win this argument, but because I was mad at myself. Because I did exactly what I had just complained about earlier—in an effort to make a man see my side, I was accommodating, gentle and diminishing my point to get him to see some semblance of it. And I hated myself for doing that. So I committed the cardinal sin of communications and deleted my tweets. Because I had embarrassed myself by acting the way I’ve been trained my whole life while lamenting the way women are trained their whole lives.

Granted, this is not a unique female experience. This is more of a reasonable person-trying-to-talk-to-an-asshole experience. But it is part of what it has meant to me being a woman. Trying desperately to scream my angers and frustrations and not being heard. So we talk more softly, gently, praying someone will hear us in the quiet. And all we succeed in is quieting ourselves, making ourselves fit more comfortably into a world that will not listen.

The idea behind #YesAllPeople, in my brief experience browsing that hashtag, honestly seemed to come from a good place, in the way women who refuse to call themselves feminists come from a good place. To the uninformed, it seemed more inclusive to love everyone. We’re all in this together. Let’s hold hands, sing Kumbaya and pass the dutchie ‘round the left-hand side.

But someone sharing their unique, specific experiences does not diminish anyone else’s. Being a feminist does not diminish the role of men in the world. Feminism, at its core, is about elevating women all the way up to equal. #YesAllWomen was, at its core, about screaming into the void of Twitter, I’ve been hurt and I don’t know what else to do, and a man hated women so much he killed six people. And I want to be heard and we want to be heard and so many people did hear, but so many people just wanted us to be quiet, to accept that men should be heard too and they missed the point and all the points and my heart aches and my eyes burn and I went from hopeful to despair all in one Memorial Day.

All I want in the world is for something to change. I want to be loud. I don’t want to accommodate. I want to be heard. We want to be heard. Please. Someone please listen.


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Comments Are Welcome, Bigots and Trolls Are Not


  • vintagelady1

    #YesAllWomen, because #YesAllPeople is just another way to dismiss and deny women's issues and experiences.

  • disqus123

    We should set up camps to murder all women after menopause!?, what use are they at that age anyway?

  • Maddy

    I haven't read all the comments here but I just want to say to the dudes who don't seem to get this: you don't get a medal for meeting basic standards of human decency and not raping women or being an asshole. This is about a societal and cultural issue not an individual one. And if you're not a misogynist asshole why are you being defensive? This isn't even about you. Stop trying to talk over women and their actual lived experience - that's not being an ally. This isn't difficult.

  • Steeevyo

    Anyone who talks about male privilege is an anti male sexist.

  • foolsage

    Do you collect much income from travelers crossing your bridge?

  • BlackRabbit

    I can't say I fully understand the fear and different worldview women are taught and endure day after day since I'm a guy. That doesn't mean I don't believe it's real (though the reality of it after reading these comments is pretty mindblowing) it's just that I have no basis for comparison. It does make me angry, though, at all of the bad apples that have created this culture of fear. I once was walking home from a bar when I saw a young lady walking ahead of me. Behind me I noticed a fellow who lived nearby in a group home that had some sketchy people in it. I don't know if he was a bad guy, but it was late at night on a deserted street. I sped up and walked up to her and I offered to walk her to her car, giving her my arm because it was icy out (why you'd wear heels in winter I don't know, but that's beside the point). Nothing happened, we chatted a bit, and she got to her car and drove off. I didn't ask her for her number because I'm just some guy she met, you know? I felt good about doing that and looking back I'm amazed that she took me up on it, and now I'm horrified that she might have been afraid to turn me down or that I might have made her more frightened or done the wrong thing by making the offer, when all I wanted was to help her; I'm not looking for any affirmations about "doing the right thing" because I'm not sure I did after reading these comments. I wish I knew. I'm not saying "Woe is me" or trying to divert the conversation to guys' POV, I think I'm just bringing up this example to show how perhaps a situation can be so different from the two sides. If I've intruded with this story or these thoughts, please tell me so and I'll happily delete it if possible. #YesAllWomen

  • Formerly Known as Melody

    Thank you Courtney. I can't stop thinking about this. I've been on the receiving end of retribution and vandalism for turning down dates with overly aggressive men of whom I had no interest. I've never walked around after dark without my oversized set of keys balled up in my hand. I've given out wrong numbers to creepy men who won't take no for an answer. I've switched rings to that finger when I was single so I could be left alone. The only reason I wasn't accosted on a Roman subway by men rubbing their crotch on me was simply because I was a brunette. My blonde companions were not so lucky.

    If you honestly still don't get these things, ask a woman. We've ALL experienced these things and far worse. No, it isn't all men and we know that. The absolute best anology of this was a Twitter post that read "See a bowl of M&Ms. Now imagine 10% of those are poison. How would you feel about reaching in and grabbing a large handful?"

  • Maddy

    It's awful. Especially the 'you should take it as a compliment'. Part of it is me not being great with confrontation and being assertive, but some guys really need to learn how to take no for an answer. I'm not a bad person for not being sexually attracted to you despite how 'nice' you are and I'm only just learning how BS that whole line of thinking is. I'm already a very socially anxious person who worries and overthinks what people think of me so these extra double standards really suck.

  • HelloLongBeach

    The best and most reliable advice I have ever received is that beggars can't be choosers. They just can not.
    "All I want in the world is for something to change. I want to be loud. I don’t want to accommodate. I want to be heard. We want to be heard. Please. Someone please listen."
    Keep up the fantastic work!

  • Another Kate

    This is awesome. Thank you, Courtney.

  • F'mal DeHyde

    I'm sure I'll go down in flames for this but... twitter activism? That's probably as effective as having an intelligent discussion on youtube. And why does it matter if someone started an alternate hashtag to include everyone? That doesn't negate anything in the original "discussion" and protesting it is a form of censorship. Just let them do their own thing and ignore it.

  • mograph

    Message to fellow men on this discussion: let's just chill and watch the discussion unfold. There's no need to express an opinion about the issue, even if it's supportive.

    Let's try that for a while.

    (I'm being serious, not sarcastic.)

  • Helo

    Some years ago, I was very much in love with a young woman. After a blissful 6 months, the 4 that followed were stressful, and she left me. Some of the reasons she had were valid and were entirely my fault. Some were hers, since forgiven. One reason she had that took me a while to shake was that she was scared of me.

    She was frightened by seeing how frustrated I would/could get when things weren't working out. The frustration led to me bawling my eyes out during the 3-4 arguments we had in a year. She was frightened by what I was physically capable of; she saw me choke a guy out. I was defending her from a coked out idiot who had put his hand on her thigh, and that escalated into me choking him out about a half hour later on account of a later incident of further aggression from his part - incidentally, I was the 2nd guy that night who tangled with Sir Snort-a-lot and his wandering hands.

    Sure, I was frustrated at times. I'd courted her for so long, she was the woman of my dreams, and wanted everything to be perfect. When I did communicate that my occasional tears of frustration were all about me being frustrated with myself for not being perfect, rather than being frustrated at her, she replied with a very scornful "why do you hate yourself so much?"

    This hurt worse than any of the other reasons she cited for breaking up. I begged her to ask herself if she really thought I was capable of physically harming her, to take stock of our entire relationship, of how much I pride myself on being every bit the gentleman my father taught me to be, and how often I told and demonstrated how much she meant to me.

    "Well, no, but only because you won't let yourself."

    I spent about two and a half years in an emotionally catatonic state. I cried myself to sleep 4 nights a week wondering if I truly had an anger management problem, if I was really capable of being the kind of man who had to resort violence against a woman (which is no kind of man at all). I hope no one ever goes through that kind of self doubt, of wondering if you truly are something you couldn't live with yourself for being.

    The fear women have of men is VERY real.

    I actually don't know how this contributes to Courtney's excellent piece or the general discussion, but I just spent about an hour and a half writing and rewriting and felt the need to put it out there, for whatever it's worth.

    The comments have been a very sobering read, thank you to all those who have shared.

    EDIT: After sleeping on it, I realized that reading this piece and the subsequent comments triggered my lengthy response because even though I still bear the scars of the demise of that particular relationship, I've managed to forgive her for almost everything that happened (especially afterwards, that's another post) but I still resented her for using the fear caused by her particular understanding of my emotionally charged actions as a reason to leave me.

    I can't say I won't ever 100% let that one go, but reading everything this piece as brought out in the Pajiba community has made me relive that conversation through a different lens. For all the grief I've managed to process over the years, that little paradigm shift really does go a long way, so again, thank you to everyone for all the comments they've shared.

  • malechai

    Part of why I no longer spend as much time commenting anymore (anywhere) is that no matter what I say - regardless of how utterly innocuous, supportive or positive it is - someone will come back, clutching their pearls, moaning about how I have not perfectly encapsulated their own experience. Therefore I am invalid and also the worst person ever.

    This pisses me off because upholding feminism, deriding racism, etc, is important (and important to me). Don't let the bastards get you down all all that, I guess, but sometimes I wish I could beam through cyberspace directly into people's brains and scream "YOU ARE THE REASON WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS."

  • nobcarajo100

    Everything a man does is rape.

  • Dumily

    Sarcasm font?

  • Brooke the Replicant

    MRA font.

  • nobcarajo100
  • nick bottom, the weaver

    speaking as a white male, i think the world would be a much more pleasant place if we (white males) would occasionally just stfu.

  • Some Guy

    There's an old saying that basically boils down to "Those who speak for everyone should start by heeding their own advice" or something like that.

  • Uriah_Creep

    You're a fucking rock star, Courtney. I hope you don't get tired of me saying that, because I'll probably say it again. Your articles make me laugh like a moron, or sometimes (like today) make me turn my gaze inwards. On the really good days, they do both. I hope you write forever.

  • amanda

    I adore you, Courtney.

  • Gunnut2600

    No...your first problem was doing anything on twitter. How that medium still exists is beyond me as it seems to combine reading internet trolls with the lasting effects of a concussion. Twitter is not a void. Its the opposite of a void.

    Per sexual violence and terror...a dealing with a stalker is terrifying no matter who you are. To this day, I get tremors anytime a phone number comes up on my phone that I don't immediately recognize thanks to a woman that made my life a living hell for two years before the cops finally arrested her. Even then, I have had to change my number, drop off of facebook, and I even had to explain and relive all this shit again when my employer made me create a linkedin profile, and this woman contacted them.

    This was three years ago. She originally got arrested in 2004. Now is this the same as a mass shooting? No. Has this caused me long term stress and change my behavior in negative ways? Oh fuck yeah.

    The worse thing though is that trying to talk about this shit, you end up with some asshole MRA who will try and compare being stalked to them getting turned down for a blind date. Not sure why I felt like sharing.just did...

  • Some Guy

    Out of curiosity, did you ever fear for your life?

  • Gunnut2600

    She came very close to killing me. I was walking out to my car, this was right after I had her first picked up for violating a retraining order.

    I had been parking away from my apartment, but in front of a CCTV for the complex. Got to my car, heard a "HEY" and as I turned everything went black with a crunch.

    I came too about a day later in the emergency room and my whole head was in pain. I couldn't see out of my one eye and I thought I had been shot in the head.

    I got to later watch the CCTV video of her walking up, getting my attention, and then hitting me in the side of my head with a gulf club at full swing. Luckily she missed my temple (if we had bee close to the same height I think I would have been dead). I had to get a plate put in to stabilize the bones in the left side of my face. Had a badly fracture check bone, lost about half the teeth on that side of my mouth. Ended up fracturing my ocular socket as when I went down, I went face first in to my driver side mirror (she got a good deal of torque on me...say what you will...her golf mechanics were always top notch).

    Didn't hurt as much, but she managed to crack two of my ribs when I was down as she hit me a few more times when I was out.

    I get a nice little remind of her whenever I try to go through airport security. I also get seizures and migraines from time to time. .

  • foolsage

    I'm sorry you had to undergo that trauma. That sounds terrible.

    Have a hug and a cookie. I fear both are virtual but they're still heartfelt. You're not alone.

  • Gunnut2600

    Thanks. You got to learn not to let the person get the better of you I guess. I think it ends up helping me on my job (I am a field engineer who works internationally). I tend to get cagey staying one place for longer than a few months.

  • foolsage

    You're right about not letting them get the better of you, but that's easier said than done most of the time I fear. Take care.

  • Lord Inferno

    *Wanders in. Takes a look around.*

    You know, some days I am really glad I am not on Twitter/Facebook/Tinder/Earth.

    *Posts sign on the way out.*

    http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net...

  • emmalita

    For a flame war it has had some soft and fuzzy spots.

  • Lord Inferno

    Sure it does, we have a lot of really intelligent, thoughtful people here. My comment was primarily directed at twitter. But, also at this point we have over 300 comments on this article and as far as I can tell it is about 50/50 on meaningful responses vs. internet pissing matches. A great ratio by internet standards, but still brutal to read through.

    I think the core point of Courtney's post is about how the good, points on the internet are quickly overwhelmed by the flames.

  • foolsage

    In addition to the bit about shutting your filthy mouth, I just wanted to say: thanks for joining our community. If you were posting here more than a month or so ago I failed to notice it, but your presence has been welcome since then. Take care. Pajiba Poetry Posse represent!

  • Lord Inferno

    LMAO!I Delurked a month ago. Been reading since 2008 (maybe 2007, can't remember exactly).

    Your "SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH YOU PHILISTINE!" made me feel more at home here than you can possibly know. Only in this little corner of the internet do people use philistine in an insult. It's why I love this place.

  • foolsage

    SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH YOU PHILISTINE!

    :D

  • stryker1121

    I'm wary of hashtag activism but this does have people all around the world talking about a difficult subject, which is great. I just wonder what happens when the news cycle moves on. What will people who sent #YesAllWomen tweets do to further spread the message the hashtag is trying to convey?

  • alwaysanswerb

    I'm wary of hashtag activism when it's the favorite method of young social media types to appear involved and informed while accomplishing little else. An example might be whatever quippy hashtag or meme comes up in October for breast cancer awareness (as if telling everyone what color bra I have on does shit for cancer patients or research?), or blithely tagging "Bring Home Our Girls!" while sipping an orange mocha frappucino and flipping back to TMZ.

    Something like this, though, I think is different, because -- although many still myopically claim "It's just the Internet!" -- the Internet is a significant contributor to our cultural mores. Someone doesn't necessarily need to be doing tangible, "extra curricular" activism in addition to having difficult conversations online. These conversations are literally our milieu.

  • foolsage

    I agree, but I still think it's important to do more than discuss issues. We all need to contribute to making the world a better place, and not just from the comfort of our own computers. Some things can't be meaningfully improved by sharing your views; sometimes direct action is needed.

    Having said that, discussion absolutely IS important, and DOES make a difference.

  • AngelenoEwok

    Many of us already do "IRL" activism in our communities. Some of my friends who were tweeting this weekend escort at clinics, read to at risk kids, volunteer for a practical support network for pregnant folks, organize take back the nights, clothesline projects, you name it.

  • stryker1121

    Cool! Wasn't trying to be glib with my question, just curious how this movement can be paid forward.

  • Nick Cowling

    I see things online and I have no idea how to react. The arrogance of ANYONE assuming to understand how anybody else experiences life is staggering. Can everyone just be cool and accept people based on their individual merits. "Treat others as you wish to be treated" and all that good stuff. Just because some folks have the anonymity that comes with being online does not give them a hall pass to act feral.

  • Elleinad

    I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before but, there is a great South Park episode where Stan is trying soooo hard to understand what it's like to be a black person. In the end he finally realizes that he can't and this makes Token happy. It's the same with men and women. Men will never "get it". On the flip side women will never "get" what men struggle with and that's ok. We just have to stop saying those words and just listen and be supportive of one another. That will never happen but it's nice to dream.

  • cj

    This weekend was a rough one for me, because it not only brought up a lot of things that I had not thought about in quite some time (though I was comforted by the shared experiences happening on Twitter) but because there was one particular person I was thinking about when reading the shooter's motives: my mom. When she was 22 years old, fresh out of school, she was brave enough to leave Ohio and move to Boston to start her career. There was a man, someone who had been her friend through school, that had romantic interests in her. She had told him several times that her answer was no and she valued him as a friend. As our culture says now: "She friendzoned him." "He was a nice guy and she was into bad boys." Whatever other bullshit there is that excuses men who don't understand "No." He followed my mother to Boston; offering to protect her and to be her friend. When she still said no, when she admitted to meeting and dating the man who would be my dad to this "friend," he beat her and left her for dead. Broke ribs. Broke her face. Knocked her unconscious. Put her in the hospital for weeks.

    Rodgers' mentality lead him to believe that he was owed something. How many guys have met a girl who wanted to "just be friends" and thought she was "missing out" and that she owed it to you to give you a chance? Now think of a girl: fresh out of college and afraid to push you away. I know, you're probably not violent. The man who attacked my mom was not supposed to be violent, either. Is that a game of roulette you yourself would play? Because women have to deal with it all the time. If I don't say hi to you or return your advance, will you attack me? That's why #YesAllWomen is important. Because men don't live with this fear.

    Thank you @courtlynne:disqus for this piece and for saying this. Reading these tweets this weekend was heartbreaking and encouraging and I loved what you said. A million times over: thank you.

  • Maguita NYC

    So eloquently told, so sad, yet so common. I am sorry your mother had to go through this; I hope she got better with time, stronger even. Being beaten to a pulp by someone she considered a friend for saying no...

    So many still believe that they are owed because THEY consider themselves "nice guys", because they consider they've treated us nicely, therefore we should willingly lay down on our backs and surrender with gratefulness for such niceness.

    I often wonder if they ever realize that truly nice guys are those who act nicely even when they don't get their way; They are truly nice because they treat others with consideration and not because they are expecting sex in return, but because they truly have respect for others.

    Beating a woman into a bloody pulp does not make you a nice rejected guy, but it makes you a violent predator in denial of your own delusions of entitlement.

  • bgarcia

    Oh my god. Your poor mother. That's horrific. I try to be a good person and curb my violent tendencies, but I want awful, awful violent and terrible things to happen to that man.

  • ZbornakSyndrome

    I'm so glad that your mother survived that horrid man. There is nothing more terrifying than a "nice guy".

  • cj

    I'm glad she survived, but it is something that always is with her and I know she's battled demons because of it. But it's also how I know I can be strong and teach my daughters as she taught me.

  • Palandt

    Woe is you. Those evil penis-wielding women beaters are out to get you.

    Have you considered why so many people misunderstand feminism? because of some angry and bitter harpies that consider themselves feminists decide to scream their indignation from the highest ivory tower. They turn Women into victims and men into oppressors, like the black and white morality of olden times. You take a tragic news story (where more men died than women, mind you) about a lone psychopathic asshole and use it to try to prove the existence of the "war on women". It's quite common to play the victim just look at those christian nut jobs, thinking everyone's out to get them.

    Feminism is easy to misunderstand because you're not very good at spreading the message. Some of you do it by going about their day just being awesome not hating everything in existence, others by attacking men in general and making them feel dirty just for being attracted to you.

    Hooo I bet I just opened a can of worms. I could've probably put it more delicately but my tone is no angrier than yours. And yes, I'm a misogynistic right wing nut. Yes, I beat my girlfriend after she makes me a sandwich. No, none of those are actually true.

  • F'mal DeHyde

    I get what you're saying but this is a community that doesn't really appreciate dissenters and your comment is a bit strongly worded. Personally, I think a lot of the recent articles on feminism are very divisive and polarizing which is the exact opposite reaction we should hope for. Mutual understanding and respect > making points online to feel superior.

  • DarthCorleone

    I can't speak for the whole community, but I don't mind dissent, and I don't want to discourage people from joining the conversation out of fear that they will just be shouted down. What I mind is any sort of condescending dissent that has an ad hominem flavor. Enter the conversation with respect and for the most part the community will respond in kind regardless of your position.

  • foolsage

    I love dissent, as long as it's respectful all around. It'd be a dull world if everyone agreed on everything, but at the same time, there are some things we all ought to find in common. Human rights are probably the most fundamental of those things.

  • ZbornakSyndrome

    Oh you're just precious, aren't you?

    http://lh6.ggpht.com/-jAj72Idg...

  • Brooke the Replicant

    This is the best reply possible to an MRA troll.

  • ZbornakSyndrome

    I believe I may have stolen it from Mrs. Julien in a similar conversation...

  • lowercase_ryan

    ..

  • For.
    Fuck's.
    Sake.

  • DarthCorleone

    Your tone is no angrier than hers? You're out of your fucking gourd. Enjoy the worms. There are far more reasoned and considerate people than I around here to put this garbage you're spewing into its proper receptacle. I'll leave them to it, even though reason and consideration seem to be beyond your communication skills.

  • AngelenoEwok

    I love it when you talk to people like this.

  • Palandt

    Me too.

  • AngelenoEwok

    But I saw him first.

  • "Hooo I bet I just opened a can of worms. I could've probably put it more delicately but my tone is no angrier than yours. And yes, I'm a misogynistic right wing nut. Yes, I beat my girlfriend after she makes me a sandwich. No, none of those are actually true."

    Personally, I'd like to see the delicate side. Because, in all honesty, I'm willing to take you at your word that you're not the douchecanoe this comment causes you to come off as.

    So, in all sincerity, let me see your measured and less derisive comment -- instead of coming back with the "not all men" argument and calling women screeching harpies. Because I bet it bothers you that women feel scared, or attacked, or worried about being alone with a guy just because she's female.

    If it doesn't bother you, ask yourself why not.

  • Palandt

    Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Like a good feminist says "I know not all men are bad" I say "I know not all feminists are man-hating harpies" But you have to admit, your message gets muddled easily because women still can't agree what it's about.

  • Maybe it does. Still, the offer stands. Your message likely got muddled as well. You're angry about this and your reply showed it. What I'm suggesting is that, maybe, you might want to look at the possibility that women have to scream so loud because people keep telling us we're crazy bitches or we were asking for it.

  • Palandt

    If I'm angry it's because I know who I am and what I think about women and how I treat them is good and right, but bitter posts like these make feel like shit just for having a penis and blame me for the sick crimes of others. I won't be stupid enough to deny there's still work to do and women to save, but I'm certainly not part of the problem. Every single day I kiss my girlfriend goodnight I know I'm doing the right thing. Tweet your #notallmen all you want, i'm not defending others actions I'm just asking to focus your indignation at the right people, because I'm on your side.

    But seriously, amongst all the angry replies i've gotten (understandable) I'm really grateful for your response.

  • DarthCorleone

    So, I'm a guy too. I strive to treat my partner and all women with respect. Hence, I'm on Courtney's "side" as well. Yet oddly I felt absolutely no indignation directed toward me in this piece.

  • Palandt

    That's cool too. Wish I felt that way.

  • I totally get what you're saying. What I'm suggesting is that, with a post like this, you don't sound like a voice for change.

    My husband is furious about this thing. Like, livid. Because it breaks his heart to think that any of his gender is responsible for this. That men (not all, but you know what I mean) make women feel less than and afraid. So, believe me, I get it.

    I'm saying that, maybe you're angry for the same reason. And I'm suggesting that you may be a bigger voice for change by being the guy who hates that women need to "screech" because no woman should have to demand basic safety and courtesy.

    I'm saying that, maybe, you have a chance to rethink and rewrite and say what you actually feel.

  • alwaysanswerb

    [nominates Geek Girl Diva for sainthood]

  • foolsage

    Caring is relatively easy. Finding a way to reach out to those with whom you differ, even when you care, is immensely difficult.

    I truly don't think Palandt is a bad person. I don't think he means anyone ill. I think he cares, and wants to make the world a better place. But it's difficult for me to find a way to express the reasons I disagree with some things he sometimes says, without coming across as simply judging him and finding him wanting. That's not constructive, though it can be popular. People enjoy seeing the failures of others pointed out. That's an easy path.

    That's my failure. I'm a warrior first, sometimes. I love argument. I love to point out errors, because they're weaknesses. As a warrior I focus on any weakness and I strike carefully just there. I'm objectively quite good at that (I literally have awards to prove it), but it's not really something about which one should brag. I'm a warrior for kindness and fairness and equality, and I'm fucking bloodthirsty sometimes. And yes, that's a contradiction. That, again, in its totality, is my failure, or rather onesuch. I know there's more to everyone than their weaknesses; else I'd never be able to live with myself.

    Thanks, GGD.

  • Jezzer

    I think your post makes it pretty clear it's not just one "lone psychopathic asshole" out there.

  • Palandt

    This I did expect, though.

  • Dumily
  • Palandt

    Oh, I didn't expect you to nod in agreement.

  • bgarcia

    Just like you're sure her/Oprah's "no" meant "yes."

  • abell

    wow, I'm astounded that you've managed to outdouche Palandt. That is impressive.

  • bgarcia

    Oh, are you calling your compatriot a douchebag? Maybe you are learning something here.

  • abell

    That is no compatriot of mine. And I have seen nothing of you that I wish to learn.

  • bgarcia

    I'm sure that "you" in your statement is directed at all the women here, where here = earth.

  • abell

    Nope, just you, B. Garcia.

  • bgarcia

    Oh well in that case: Thank you.

    ETA: Kudos on changing your post.

  • abell

    What do you mean, changing my post?

  • bgarcia

    Your opinion means oh so much to me that I'm off to cry it out.

  • abell

    Why are you still engaging, then?

  • bgarcia

    Your attention means the world to me.

  • abell

    If that's what gets you off, I guess, different strokes for different folks.

  • foolsage

    ... whoa. So you're blaming hatred borne out of ignorance on the victims? That's appalling. Did you seriously mean that?

  • Palandt

    I'm not blaming anything on anyone. I'm saying this is about a lot of badly raised assholes, not a war of genders. "Women are afraid men will beat them"? I've never met a Woman who's been victim of domestic violence, but I do know of a guy who was raped when he was a kid.

  • Buck off

    How do you know you don't know any women who've been victims of domestic violence? Do you think any women will want to open up to you about the horrible things that have happened to them if that's your attitude?

  • bibliophile

    By a man I'm assuming....

  • And, as an addition to my above comment, because this also relates - you're never met a woman who's been a victim of domestic violence and know a kid who was raped.

    Your experience is one of millions. If this many voices say women are afraid maybe women really are afraid? No woman I know wants to admit being afraid and yet, we do, repeatedly.

    Ask your girlfriend if she's ever: been afraid to be alone with a guy, gone down on a guy because he said that hard on was her fault, worried about turning a guy down for a date, been grabbed, been called names, been called a slut, or has had sex when she hasn't wanted to.

    We're not talking about all men, and yes, Rodgers was crazy, but he was a MRA and he was pissed because girls wouldn't date a gentleman like him. He ACTUALLY thought he was a gentleman.

    In the end, sure, his insanity contributed to how he perceived signals and acted out his anger, but the idea that he was able to find agreement in the world with his very radical beliefs means that there are men out there who think just like he does. And it's why women feel the need to keep speaking about this.

  • foolsage

    When you claim that there isn't a societal problem with misogyny, but rather just some "bad actors", you're part of the problem. You're dismissing the size and scope of the issues at hand in an effort to stifle discussion.

  • foolsage

    No, actually, you did blame women for misogyny. Twice.

    First, you suggested that misogyny is a response to "angry and bitter harpies". Then you blamed women for not being "very good at spreading the message".

    Both of those views are misogynistic and appalling. They're also illogical and indicative of willful blindness on your part.

    Also, the odds are VERY high that you've known several women who were victims of domestic violence. I wonder why they didn't feel comfortable sharing that with you.

  • Palandt

    I believe you've misunderstood me before on a separate issue. At first I thought it was you but clearly, I'm a poor communicator. Not being sarcastic. The part of women not being able to spread the message is dead-on though. I do believe Women can't agree what the message is, because different groups have different ideas about what it is.

  • foolsage

    GeekGirlDiva expressed it well; take your time. Rephrase your thoughts. If I'm misunderstanding you, fair enough. That does happen. I won't claim to speak for anyone else's misunderstanding.

    It seems to me that you're suggesting that women are responsible for men's reactions to feminism, as per the two quotes I cited above. If that's not what you meant, what did you mean?

  • Palandt

    No, I'm not trying to shift responsibility in any way shape or form.

  • foolsage

    Fair enough. Thanks for the discussion. I'm sure you felt defensive at some point here, but I appreciate hearing your views. If I disagree with some of your views, that could be my own misunderstanding; we all have our own filters. Just because I try to keep an open mind doesn't mean I always succeed.

    I have strong feelings about bigotry and tend to be... firm... in my responses whenever I believe I perceive it. If I think I see someone defending bigotry, I can be a bit fierce. ;)

  • frank247

    Look around you.
    Ask questions.
    Engage, rather than dismiss.

    You will find that you know, and are probably related to, plenty of women that have experience of domestic violence.

  • bgarcia

    Nope. Women won't share their experiences with someone like this, which is why he believes that he knows no women who have had experiences like that.

  • Jezzer

    Welp, that's it. Women's Movement is over. Palandt knows a guy. You had a good run while it lasted, feminism, but you just can't stand against statistics like that.

  • Palandt

    Great! Where's my trophy? While I'm at it, let me get you your trophy for missing the point.

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