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Speaking Ill of the Famous Dead: A Pajiba Discussion

By Courtney Enlow | Posted Under Think Pieces | Comments (76)



ryandunn3.jpg

Last week, Rowles discussed the Twit-cident in which Roger Ebert referred to recently deceased Ryan Dunn as a “jackass” who drove drunk, greatly upsetting Dunn’s friends, as well as many who read the tweet. But as excellent as Dustin’s original post was, it was the comments that got me thinking, because a much larger discussion was beginning to form. With that, I turn to you.

Common rules of decency dictate that we must respect the dead. Is this necessarily the case?

Fact: Ryan Dunn had a BAC of over 0.19, more than twice the legal limit, when he drove 140 mph, and did so on the same stretch of road where he flipped his car eight times fifteen years prior. I’m not going to link to TMZ and give them extra pageviews for essentially posting a photo of a death scene, but believe me when I say that car was destroyed beyond recognition that it was ever anything more than a charred hunk of metal.

So, let me pose the ugly question. Why is it that because, due to speed, trajectory, impact and sheer dumb luck, this person happened to die this time, killing his friend in the process, we are supposed to speak no evil?

I really do feel guilty even writing this, and I don’t know that I even necessarily agree with anything I say past the period at the end of this paragraph. I mean, we are raised with the idea that once someone leaves this mortal coil, they are untouchable. That death is such a powerful thing that it renders the memory of those who meet their maker somewhat purified.

But should that be the case? Should it be considered so cruel, cold and terrible to pose the idea that maybe a death of this nature isn’t as much a shame as it is what happens when someone drives 140 mph completely wasted? Because I just posed it, and I feel pretty cruel, cold and terrible for doing so.

Think about this: today, Lindsay Lohan is an unmitigated fuck-up with no sense of responsibility, or sense at all, really. At the worst, people laugh at her; at the other end of the spectrum, people feel sorry for her as a sick tragic figure. But, were she to die tomorrow, the scale would tip, and the vast majority would be on Team Sad Tragic Figure. And all because she would have made it to what would seem to the be the inevitable end point. Look at Pete Doherty and Amy Winehouse, both of whom, against all possible efforts, manage to still ensconce beating hearts. When their organs just finally up and quit, will we look in horrified judgment at those who, possibly fairly, state that they did this to themselves, that they had all the chances in the world and didn’t take them?

I don’t mean to focus solely on those possibly suffering from addictions (though, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m not sure I think Lohan is an addict; I think she’s an irresponsible dipshit, and those are different things), partly because that’s a whole other can of worms and one I understand too much to go on appearing to judge those in that realm, and mostly because—I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again—addictions are different when the addict is famous. Addiction + Fame = The Delusion of Infallibility and Immortality. And, weirdly, they always seem to be right. Charlie Sheen will probably outlive us all. But, in Hollywood, it’s so rarely any disease but the vice which knocks someone down. And, no matter how sick or sad someone’s existence in this world was, particularly if they took the life of someone else with them along the way, should they be immortalized as a tragic hero simply because they won’t be around anymore?

Maybe, yes. A reckless living person is one thing. But, when the day comes where that recklessness finally does them in, it is sad. It is a shame. They will never get another chance to do things differently. Yes, perhaps their actions lead to something terrible, but they didn’t deserve it. They didn’t have it coming. Why should their entire previous existence be colored by how it ended? Why should people begrudge those who prefer to recall them in soft focus with the flaws diminished?

Death is sad. The senseless loss of a life is a tragedy. But does that loss of life immediately give an individual a force field shielding them from criticism?

So, I put it to you. I’ve driven you to the devil’s advocate cliff. Jump.









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Comments

This website recently posted something lambasting Ebert for his unrepentant attitude about his comments, but I didn't see the big deal. Ryan Dunn was not only a drunk fuck up who murdered his friend, but his professional work made the world a little stupider.

Posted by: John Zeller at July 1, 2011 1:10 PM

Dunn was funny.

He died stupidly.

That pretty much covers everything, I think.

Posted by: Skitz at July 1, 2011 1:12 PM

Michael Jackson was a baby-toucher.

Pope John Paul II was a homophobe.

Elizabeth Taylor sold shitty perfume.

Mother Teresa had a sandy vagina (probably).

Posted by: Snath at July 1, 2011 1:12 PM

It wasn't just that Ryan Dunn died doing something stupid; he died doing something stupid and also killed someone else and put many other people in danger (potentially, I don't know if anyone else was around but I'm sure Dunn was beyond caring by that point). If Lindsay Lohan dropped dead in her bathtub, I'd think, man, what a waste. If she did what Dunn did, I'd only feel sorry for anyone else she killed or hurt.

Posted by: Todd at July 1, 2011 1:16 PM

It's a tacky lie to suddenly act like someone's not an asshole or worse. Having been to a funeral where we waited til after and said "who the hell were they talking about?" I have no time for ridiculous canonization.

Posted by: Jay at July 1, 2011 1:18 PM

Yeah, Skitz. This is the nutshell version.

I love the first Jackass movie. I think I know what this says about me, but I still admit it and love it.

That said, drunk driving is the lowest, most selfish act. He was a funny guy, but he was a criminal.

Posted by: klingonfree at July 1, 2011 1:18 PM

I'm all for speaking ill of the dead if they deserved it. Whitewashing a person's past doesn't help anyone. I couldn't believe the revisionism that went on several years ago when Nixon died.

And yeah, I'm P.N.G. in my Aunt Monica's house for daring to point out that Mother Teresa, while she did lots of good, also completely opposed the use of condoms in India's slums, and flew to Ireland to beg the Irish people to reject the divorce referendum when it was on the ballot (far better that my neighbor who was beaten black and blue every Friday night should stay with her asshole husband, right?).

As I pointed out in the first discussion, you don't go up to the widow at the grave side and have it out over her husband's character, but there's nothing wrong with waiting until everyone has left and then breaking out the dancing shoes for a little two-step over freshly turned sod.

Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2011 1:21 PM

He killed somebody.

If Lindsay Lohan died tomorrow from overdose and a car accident or chemical intoxication from her hair bleach, people would probably say something like “So sad; she had potential; untimely; etc.” If she had died but her actions lead to the death of an additional person? I’d be Team Ebert all over again.

Posted by: Scully at July 1, 2011 1:22 PM

Do you feel similar pangs of guilt speaking ill of a suicide bomber? I don't know Ryan Dunn - maybe he was a paragon of human decency. But he committed murder and died in the process. Ergo, douchebag. If someone gets in an accident or od's in their bathtub, they might be entitled to some sort of 'shield from criticism.'. But an asshole is an asshole is an asshole. I see no reason how dying changes that.

Posted by: Greedy at July 1, 2011 1:22 PM

We are all touched by death long before we feel its embrace around us. So, as good people, we like to think that we are cognizant of this fact and respectful for the feelings of others when someone close to them dies.

I don't feel sorry for Ryan Dunn. I feel sorry for his family and his friends. They're the ones who get to live with the pain and the doubts over his death. It's for their sake (not Dunn's) that we don't speak ill of the dead.

The question becomes though: will we feel any remorse about speaking ill of a Lindsay Lohan or a Charlie Sheen to spare the Lohans or the Estevez/Sheens their pain?

Posted by: Fredo at July 1, 2011 1:24 PM

When the kid at Virginia Tech wasted 30 kids I was sad. When he turned the gun on himself I feel no remorse at all. Be thankful he didn't slam his fireball into a carload of kids doing the right thing with a designated driver.
Dunn is fair game, I just expected a comedian to be the first one to get unjustly blasted for a totally justified joke at his expense. On that note I'll share the best one-liner I've heard so far.

"Ryan Dunn died like he lived, with hot wheels jammed up his ass."

Posted by: Nate at July 1, 2011 1:25 PM

No, no one should get a force field from criticism, even in death.

You touch upon the finality of the condition, though, and that's what makes the extra measure of respect and consideration deserved in my opinion. The benefit of life is that we always have a chance to right the course, correct our mistakes, and find redemption, and in my opinion all human beings deserve that opportunity within reason. Once someone is dead, he or she is no longer afforded that luxury. Heaping finite criticism upon the face of an infinite condition is not necessarily unfair, but it should be weighed against the fact that we are all flawed and all commit wrongs. Unfortunately, sometimes people are not around on this planet long enough to fully address their shortcomings.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at July 1, 2011 1:30 PM

In short, no. Dunn's death, and that of his friend, is tragic, but that doesn't make him any less of a jackass. Given the way he died, and the fact he killed his friend, who was perhaps just as stupid for riding with him, it makes him even more of a jackass. The dead should have no force field around their names. We don't look at Hitler and think, "I can't call him a racist criminal mass murderer because its unkind to speak ill of the dead;" its a plain fact. People say that shit all the time, but nobody likes Hitler (well, I mean besides Neo-nazis and Skinheads...)

Look, the Jackass boys got their name from doing stupid things. Period. Dunn died doing something stupid. Period. If he had somehow miraculously survived, he'd probably say he nearly died doing something stupid. That's not speaking ill of the dead, that's being realistic.

And lets not lose sight of a final thing here: When the Rowles piece came out 99% of those who commented AGREED with Ebert. I think most people would. The only reason anyone gives a shit about what Ebert said is because he is famous. All those people who posted said the same thing Ebert did, so why no uproar? Perhaps the real question is whether a famous person is allowed to speak his mind, speak freely, and speak of the dead, because the sad fact is in today's society speaking your mind whilst being famous can get you fined or fired.

Posted by: EJ at July 1, 2011 1:31 PM

Anyone remember in Torchwood when Owen dies but then he is re-animated and walking around, and suddenly Ianto, who never really got along with Owen starts to agree with him because he (Ianto) was raised not to speak ill of the dead?

Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2011 1:31 PM

You don't speak ill of the dead because of the people who are grieving for them. Those people don't need any more sadness. I think the issue is announcing your criticisms over something like Twitter where anyone can see.
I don't think anyone would blame you for thinking a person was irresponsible or voicing it amongst your friends, just as long as you're respectful of the people affected.

Posted by: Delilah at July 1, 2011 1:33 PM

Even though the jokes were made whilst i was still a babe, the death of Natalie Wood was no fucking joke.

All I know is this: I grew up watching a bunch of her films, constantly had people forget my name and call me "Natalie," and thought she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen (besides my mom).

If you talk smack on Natalie wood I will fucking assault you.

Anyone else is free game.

Posted by: beet salad at July 1, 2011 1:36 PM

I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who, time and again, ignored pleas from people who truly loved and cared for him to please take it easy. If those loved ones prefer to ignore the manner in which he died and instead remember the things they loved about him, that's their right. However, I'm under no obligation to play along with them. I didn't know him or his friends and family, and I owe them absolutely nothing.

Posted by: Jessie at July 1, 2011 1:36 PM

Well, regardless of who it is the internet is going to be making jokes before the body is cold whenever a famous person dies, weather it is through puns, insults, ironically referencing their death with quotes or projects they were previously in... it's what the internet does.

At the same time, we are going to be maudlin and sentimental about the fact that real death occurred to someone we fake knew, probably with some fond nostalgic memories that we don't know what to do with.

So some people will be out there on Facebook trying to make the best original joke, others will just be laughing at (retweeting, or liking) those jokes. Some people will speak up to announce to everyone how insignificant they find it, others will actually ignore it.

There are no "common rules of decency" on the internet. Respect really doesn't exist here. It's ghoulish and irreverent and ignorant and sometimes that's funny and a much needed take down of uptight social mores and other times it is disgusting and horrible.

Our response to death is weird and complicated and personal. I'm pretty sure the dead don't care but as (I think it was) superasante pointed pointed out in the original discussion it's not about them. Our responsibility to be respectful of the dead has more to do with the people left behind. That still won't do a thing to change the internet response.

Posted by: Yossarian at July 1, 2011 1:38 PM

I feel sorry for his friends and family. I am saddened that so many people die this way needlessly--drunk drivers, passengers and innocent bystanders. But Bam Margera (please excuse my spelling) did an interview where he said of Dunn's death "it shouldn't have been him." That's bullshit and lacks any perspective of who's responsible for Dunn's death. Who should it have been? Maybe in is grief Bam is not able to articulate his meaning in a way that preserves both Dunn's memory and the reality of the situation...he may have meant..."I wish this hadn't happened. I miss him. I wish he hadn't been stupid and driven drunk. It's a senseless act that cannot be undone and I hope everyone learns from it--including me. Because I do stupid shit too. I've probably driven when I've had too much to drink without thinking about anyone else or the consequences." But I guess that's a little wordy for a soundbite.

Posted by: anikitty at July 1, 2011 1:41 PM

Yes, but then he told us that he loves "The Notebook" so how can we take him seriously?

Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2011 1:43 PM

Not sure, but did he flip a car in 1996 on that same road? Anyway, if I label myself a jackass, I'd feel bound to live up to that label, and if I died in the service of jackassery, it makes sense to me that someone might be sad and contemptuous.

Posted by: DenG at July 1, 2011 1:44 PM

Why has no one pointed out that his friend WILLINGLY got in the car and let Dunn drive him? Yes, it was stupid he was driving drunk and too fast. But it takes two to tango and I'm sure his friend knew what he was getting into. In my eyes, they're both retards. Doesn't make it any less sad, though.

Posted by: letsspoon at July 1, 2011 1:45 PM

And don't get too carried away with the analogies. He bears responsibility for his death and the death of another. That is not the same think as murder, suicide bombings, etc.

Murder implies malice, intent, and forethought. Dunn was reckless, negligent, and responsible for two deaths but it is not the same thing.

Posted by: Yossarian at July 1, 2011 1:46 PM

OH OKAY, EJ pretty much said that. TOUCHE.

Posted by: letsspoon at July 1, 2011 1:47 PM

I feel sorry for his family and his friends. They're the ones who get to live with the pain and the doubts over his death. It's for their sake (not Dunn's) that we don't speak ill of the dead.

Fredo says it perfectly. I think the issue here isn't what you feel or even say concerning one who has passed. The issue is to whom and how loudly you say it. Posting on Twitter or announcing to a room full of people that "at least they're out of the gene pool" makes you a total asshole. Thinking that a drunk driver "had it coming"? That is your business and, in my opinion, fair.

It brings to mind the two movies coming out about parents whose child commits a mass murder on a campus. No one* will feel sorry for the kid that kills himself after slaughtering others, but do the parents deserve to be attacked, verbally or otherwise? It isn't a great comparison, I know, just what came to mind.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at July 1, 2011 1:48 PM

If I considered myself a friend of Ryan's and I saw someone making an insensitive comment about his death, I would simply shrug it off, because that person didn't know him, so who gives a crap what they think? Expecting strangers to tiptoe around your personal feelings is pretty self-centered, and you're just setting yourself up to be pissed off at the words of someone who doesn't even matter to you. What a waste of energy.

Posted by: Jessie at July 1, 2011 1:53 PM

I do feel sorry for some of those college kids who have gone on murder sprees because in many cases they were clearly mentally ill and didn't get the help they needed. I have a sister who teaches children, many of whom have issues early on related to fetal alcohol syndrome and other causalities. Most of the time the parents don't want to know. They refuse to get help for the kids and even fight having the children in my sister's class where she can help them. She's been beaten up three times by an eleven year old who has deep-seated anger/violence issues and who has drawn pictures of him burning his class mates to death and the parents simply deny he has a problem.

Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2011 1:53 PM

That was my sentiment, Yossarian, and I hope it was shared by others.

It's not about being respectful of the dead. He doesn't care; he's dead.

It's also not about lying about the dead person and telling everyone what a great person he was. You want to talk about his flaws? Do it. Just don't do it in front of an audience. If you and your cousin want to whisper about how you never liked uncle Dave anyway, how he smelled like stale tabacco and whiskey, and how you're pretty sure he was always eye-balling your sister -- do it. But if the pastor makes those same points during the eulogy, that's in poor taste.

It's about being respectful to the living. Ebert should never have said what he did in a public forum with potentially millions of people listening. He should have said it to his wife, his friends, his co-workers. He should have sat his grandchildren down and said, "Look at this idiot. This tragic death is avoidable and he's truely a jackass."

Just because you have an opinion doesn't need to shout it from the mountain-tops (and yes, I understand how empty that sentiment is coming from me).

Posted by: superasente at July 1, 2011 1:54 PM

To answer the question at the end: No.

Posted by: Slash at July 1, 2011 1:55 PM

So some asshole killed someone because he was speeding and (at the time) allegedly (now confirmed) drunk driving and I'm supposed to be sympathetic? No. Not happening.

The roads are safer with someone that irresponsible off them. I will not apologize for not mourning an asshole drunk speeding driver who killed someone else and had previously flipped his car (with two other people in it) at the same spot doing the same shit 15 years before.

Posted by: Robert at July 1, 2011 1:55 PM

I don't see how simply pointing out that he was, in fact, barreling down the road at over 100 mph while intoxicated resulting in the death of his friend can be considered "speaking ill" of him.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at July 1, 2011 1:56 PM

He's guilty of negligent homicide. Had he survived and his friend died, he'd likely have been charged with that offense along with the DUI.

As far as the internet goes, people get to hide behind a sense of anonymity here. That allows people to say things that might be considered tactless or distasteful, or even things they would never say in public. As for Dunn, he made a career out of ridiculously stupid stunts and gleefully called himself a jackass. Making a pun of the lifestyle he lead as a PSA about drunk driving likely wasn't just said by Ebert, but was pointed out by hundreds of people in the aftermath. The point is that he drank, he drove that Porsche like he stole it, he crashed, and he died along with a passenger. I honestly think if Bam Margera gave that much of a damn about his friend's memory, he'd use his questionable fame and tell other young fans of his and Dunn's about why drunk driving and driving like a jackass is a dumb damn idea because, hey, people die.

Posted by: Melody at July 1, 2011 1:58 PM

bam loved his friend... and it probably really hurt when ebert said something rather callously that bam knew was true... so he just got mad...

Posted by: chewy at July 1, 2011 2:11 PM

I'd like to clarify my original comment; I think it's entirely responsible to use Ryan Dunn's death as a measure to educate people on drunk driving. I'm not saying people shouldn't talk about it at all. I'm just saying the conversation should be free of pithy one-liners and insensitive jokes. It's not a time for jokes.

Posted by: superasente at July 1, 2011 2:12 PM

My view is that the man was an idiot an a murderer. He got what he deserved.
I do feel sorry for his family and friends I'm sure they miss him and are very hurt by his death.
But the reality is the man was a danger to himself and others. We dont owe him anything.

Posted by: logan at July 1, 2011 2:16 PM

Look,

The guy is lucky that he did not kill a car full of other people. I never watched a single episode of jackass or the movie, so really know nothing about this guy.

But, anyone who kills themselves in this fashion, particularly when it is not a first incident, is hardly deserving of respect or sympathy.

Posted by: Kerminy at July 1, 2011 2:22 PM

In my opinion you don't speak ill of the dead NOT because of the dead but because of their living loved ones who are grieving.

Posted by: blacksred at July 1, 2011 2:39 PM

The vibe I'm getting from his crew is, that they're just upset that he's dead but see nothing wrong with how he GOT himself and the passenger dead . Like, it's **ALL** about him, and them, and how THEY have to, somehow live through this aggravation. It is a selfish "we are all bros doing our bro thing, why can't we just be allowed to be idiots." Caring about others outside their little clique is just NOT in these guy's internal wiring. It all reminds me of how Hulk Hogan's family circled the wagons around their criminal precious snowflake when HE turned HIS friend into a vegetable a couple of years back while pulling some STUPID shit in a car that was way beyond his limited skillset.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at July 1, 2011 2:41 PM

I feel like it should be pointed out that Ebert didn't really say anything disrespectful about Dunn's death. It's not like he got on Twitter and crowed "Haha Dunn's dead! That's what you get dicknose!" He said friends don't let jackasses (or vice-versa) drive drunk. Which is 100% true.

Dunn did a stupid, shitty thing. While I don't feel that opens up opportunities to castigate him after death, I also don't think it's disrespectful to point out the obvious, which is what I feel Ebert was doing. Maybe the tone of his tweet was a little insensitive, but it certainly didn't deserve the responses it got.

Posted by: JustBill at July 1, 2011 2:49 PM

Should it be considered so cruel, cold and terrible to pose the idea that maybe a death of this nature isn’t as much a shame as it is what happens when someone drives 140 mph completely wasted?

The fuck it should. And I don't feel cruel, cold or terrible for saying so.

Posted by: stacey nosek at July 1, 2011 3:07 PM

I agree with B. Slim.

That feels wrong.

Anyway, what Slim said is correct and exactly how I see it.

Posted by: Melody at July 1, 2011 3:54 PM

Death is sad? Who says? Guy is famous for being on a show called Jackass for fuck's sakes.

Hell when Micheal Jackson died my first response to finding out the news was, "How on earth can you tell?".

Some people you don't mourn for. Even those you do, won't really be offended they are being made fun of. THEY'RE DEAD!

Posted by: googergieger at July 1, 2011 4:17 PM

All the man said was "Friends don't let Jackasses drive drunk"

I fail to see how this was disrespectful or mean.

If it was meant to anyone, it was his friends, not the deceased. They're the ones who are all butt-hurt because it's true.

And yes, he killed his passenger and it's a blessing that he didn't murder any innocents on the road that night.

I will mourn the dead, but not hold blameless the idiot who kills himself in such a stupid manner.

Posted by: Protoguy at July 1, 2011 4:48 PM

Whenever I hear about a single dead drunk driver I think they killed the best person to kill. I don't feel guilty about it at all. It's not a fucking tragedy, you know what you're doing when you get into that car or go out drinking and have a car at your disposal, only you are taking other innocent people's lives into your hand. So if you die, good. You probably saved some people in the process. So good for you. Best way it could have turned out, really. The tragedy in this case was his friend. As for the jackass, fuck him. As for Bam Magera, fuck you. How many times did you let him drive drunk? I do not give a shit about your grief, how about you think about how much worse it would be if your friend killed your mom and stop your drunk idiot friends from driving especially when they can certainly afford a driver. Chain them to the bed and fart in their face or something, I know you have it in you.

Posted by: Pippa at July 1, 2011 5:05 PM

I disagree that a person always knows what they're doing when they get behind the wheel drunk. It doesn't relieve them of responsibility, but that's the thing about drunk; you're judgment is screwed, sometimes to the point of not having judgment at all.

Posted by: Protoguy at July 1, 2011 5:35 PM

However, Protoguy, you know what you're doing when you go to the bar with a car. You know when you've had two beers. You know when you plan to get hammered. You know how to say "Please take my keys and don't give them to me no matter how much I try to convince you I'm OK to drive."

Posted by: Pippa at July 1, 2011 6:00 PM

I agree, but unless you've never been really drunk, everyone knows that there is a point where intelligence falls off completely. You say you know when you plan to get hammered. Sometimes you just don't plan it.

Not everyone plans to get to that point and often it happens without your meaning it to. And before you give me that sanctimonious crap again, reality is friggin reality. Sometimes you don't intend to get as drunk as you end up. Whether it's buddies plying you with shots or just a slow drunk that catches you by surprise. And at that point, no amount of common sense is going to stop you from thinking it's perfectly ok to drive rather than deal with taxis or getting your car the next day or any of that shit.

Repeating MADD slogans doesn't make it so.

Posted by: Protoguy at July 1, 2011 6:23 PM

So going on your logic.

I've had two beers, I'm good.
I've had five beers, I'm good.
I've had ten beers, I'm good.
I've had twenty beers according to you, but I'm good. Let's drag race!(in a beyond slurred voice, naturally)

I mean it's not like, I've stopped drinking for two hours. I'm behind the wheel. I've been driving for thirty minutes. And now I'm drunk. Not to mention me and my friends don't let my stubborn friend drunk when he gets wasted. Even when we're pretty wasted.

Your logic isn't so much tarded as just...

Na, it's tarded.

Posted by: googergieger at July 1, 2011 6:31 PM

You guys act like you've never been to a party in your life. Always in control of your faculties eh? Always plan ahead, have a designated driver, never had one too many and had a lapse of judgment.

Lying bullshit.

Posted by: Protoguy at July 1, 2011 6:38 PM

And you act like sober then drunk happens in the blink of an eye.

You are telling me you are sober, then literally one second goes by and you are full blown drunk? That is beyond a light weight, mate. How old are you? Ten? And how much do you weigh? Ten pounds? And what do you drink? Pure vodka? Cause even if all those questions are true, I have to say I don't believe your story and/or logic.

Posted by: googergieger at July 1, 2011 6:50 PM

Thanks, Jessie. With your last sentence, you've encapsulated the mission statement of Westboro Baptist Church.

Posted by: gbeenie at July 1, 2011 8:44 PM

Umm, no, I specifically stated that "Whether it's buddies plying you with shots or just a slow drunk that catches you by surprise". Never been to a sushi restaurant and had someone crack one then two bottle of saki? Never been to a kegger where you didn't plan to drink much but ran into a buddy who partied you out? Never been to a football game and had too many beers? Never woke up and wondered how you got home? Never been to a bar and sat and talked to a chick for too long before you realized you had too much? Sometimes you're aware enough to call a cab, sometimes you're not.

There's no such thing as sober, then drunk. I never said that and your attempts to twist my words to fit your uppity bullshit are childish.

But yes, full on drunk can sneak up on you sometimes. Sorry your experiences are so limited by your moral high ground.

My story and logic aren't in question, your interpretation of what I've said are. I'm 46, 180lbs, used to hold my liquor fine. Don't drink anymore because it just stopped being fun. I've drank pretty much everything but gin. So again, if you want to play little games like "I'm too cool to get drunk without being fully in control of my surroundings at all times, feel free. It's still a load of horseshit.

Posted by: Protoguy at July 1, 2011 8:45 PM

"There's no such thing as sober, then drunk."

See this is the part that ruins the rest of your nonpoints. Because you are trying to say it sneaks up on you but with that bit you are saying it doesn't. Which means at one point and time you can make the conscious decision of not being a dick and driving home drunk. Giving someone else your keys. Calling a Taxi. Cutting yourself off. Calling a friend or family member. Walking. Crashing some place. Hell I once crashed at a Trolley station instead of driving home drunk.

It's not games. It's holding ones self accountable to stupid decisions.

"Hey, it's not my fault he died. It was the bullet in the gun I used to shoot him and the gun's fault for shooting said bullet."

Granted that's a bit exaggeration of your "argument" but still. You can't say sometimes you get drunk on accident. When it's not like you tripped and fell into a tub of wild turkey, had to drink your way out, and when you finally escaped you were too drunk to be held responsible for any and all things from that point on. There is no scenario you can come up with where the person who got drunk and then drove home isn't one hundred percent to blame for said decision. Hell there isn't one scenario you can come up with where someone getting drunk isn't their choice outside of that tripping into a tub example I gave you.

Posted by: googergieger at July 1, 2011 8:56 PM

It seems that many of you who comment either a) can't be bothered to read the comments of others or b) you are really hard-headed. Nobody gives a rat's ass about the feelings of the dead people (nor, in fact, do the dear-departed themselves). The issue all along has been: If you wanna say something true-but-rude about some dead asshole, should you do it publicly (because friends and family of the carcass are grieving)? Actually, the deeper issue is: Why do we have funerals or grieving anyway? Everybody dies. Why not just chuck their bodies in a landfill? It's obvious that funerals are for the friends and family, NOT the deceased.

Some people are happy to spout as much vitriol as they can possibly get off their chests (in a limited amount of space on a message board), which is their prerogative. But it is obvious some of you are angry. So, why are some people so angry about this notion that, maybe, it's just plain not very nice to say certain things at certain times, but if you do---it's your choice-- you too might be considered a jackass. Maybe you're not a jackass that committed negligent homicide, but you are a jackass when it comes to matters of taste. So what?

Posted by: Stinky at July 1, 2011 8:58 PM

When my husband and I go out to a party or somewhere we might be drinking, only one of us drinks. We usually rock-paper-scissors for the decision, or if it's his friend's birthday, he drinks and vice-versa. Yeah, it'd be fun to drink together and if we want to both drink, we line up a sober driver or plan to spend the night. We have never, ever found ourselves in the position where one of us has had to drive home with alcohol in our system. It's not that hard.

Posted by: TWoPFan at July 1, 2011 9:01 PM

Protoguy: Oh yeah, for sure there are times when you don't mean to get as drunk as you do. I did that in college a lot and everyone does. The great thing about that is you're generally close to campus and the drunk driving doesn't have to come up. And also, I also realize that lots of places are set up in an absolutely retarded way. You have to drive to get to the bar in most suburbs and there's not necessarily food or a hotel or whatever. And LA is just ridiculous. I saw someone tell a guy who was sleeping in a car with vomit on his chest and reeking of alcohol get told to get out of the parking lot he was in before they called the police. Retarded. What's he supposed to do? Get arrested for the greater good? We need to make it much easier for people to get their drink on responsibly. Admitted. Part of my attitude is definitely informed by living in a coastal city with public transport. And being hit by a drunk driver while on a bike. Haha I was drunk too. And on a bike because I knew I'd be drinking.. Guess who got hurt? Not him. I wasn't hurt too too bad but since I have managed to never drunk drive, and since that incident (and I've been hit by sober drivers too, but having a drunk guy refuse to give you his information and drive off in a panic put a permanent anger about the issue in me) I have very little sympathy for the excuses of people who do.

I mean, maybe it's an American thing, but can we learn to fucking drink by our mid-twenties? How many times do you have to be surprised by your wastedness to realize that you should start thinking about whether or not you want to continue WHILE YOU'RE STILL SOBER. Seriously. It can be done. Maybe it should be taught to us while we're in college. Not even kidding. I've never blacked out before and past 25 I've never gotten drunk enough to vomit because I know the 4th beer is where I need to make a decision. Just learn to think about the car thing on your 3d beer or your 4th beer or wherever it is before you lose your intelligence. That is a big part of how I've managed to never drive drunk. If you habitually think about your own drunkness on a certain drink number, you'll find it's really easy to avoid being surprised by your drunkness.

Posted by: Pippa at July 1, 2011 9:23 PM

Protoguy, I can recall some HUGE lapses in judgement some while sober some not. The one I can say I have never ever had in 47 years is driving drunk or even buzzed, if I drank I didn't drive period. I didn't ride with those who did.

Perhaps the problem lies in ourselves, and what we consider fame these days. Had Dunn not been in a movie would we have even noticed? Had it been Jack Nicholson would we have made the same comments?

Hey I can be a major asshole and I admit it as one of my many many faults. I made comments about this guy and I stand by them good or bad whether someone agrees or not. I don't think this guy deserved the wailing masses over how sad this was. I thought it was stupid and I thought he was stupid for what he did in his career and how he died. I don't think in a few years anyone but his family and "friends" will remember him.

Its my opinion, I can go on the internet find a comment box and have at it. Is that a good thing? The anonymity of the internet allows people to say what they really feel. They can do so without fear of real backlash. So someone disagrees, who cares? They call you an asshole, you call them an ignorant fuck wit, where is the penalty?

I don't think speaking ill of the dead is always a bad thing. Perhaps its the ability to do it so easily without repercussions that's the "bad" thing

Posted by: clancys_daddy at July 1, 2011 9:31 PM

I'm pretty much where you are Pippa. I stopped drinking in my early 30s. Just wasn't worth the hangovers or the stress or the dealing with cars and drivers and junk.

You're the one who sabotages your own arguments Googer:

"""There's no such thing as sober, then drunk."

See this is the part that ruins the rest of your nonpoints. Because you are trying to say it sneaks up on you but with that bit you are saying it doesn't."

Sober then drunk is not the same at all as 'sneaks up on you'. Do you understand what words mean? Or do you just shorthand in your brain to fit your prejudged argument? Or do you deliberately ignore all of my other valid points about drinking? You talk like you've never really had a drink in your life and are judging things by anecdotal bullshit. Sometimes all it takes is one shot too many to push you over. Yes, we should all be fucking responsible but how many of us are all the time every minute? Zero. Get your head out of your ass and get some real perspective before you start judging shit you clearly know nothing of.

Posted by: Protoguy at July 1, 2011 10:00 PM

People who comment on others' deaths as if they were close to the victim in any sort of way, negative or positive, are only attempting to juice ratings in some manner (i.e., Ebert). Whether or not Ryan Dunn was a murderer has absolutely no effect on my life whatsoever; therefore, I spent my few seconds relating that he was my "Jackass" crush over derpy-faced Johnny Knoxville and baby-faced Bam Margera, and then I MOVED ON.

Posted by: duckandcover at July 1, 2011 10:04 PM

You have no real valid points. Your biggest point is the one we are arguing.

"Sometimes all it takes is one drink to push you over"

"No such thing as sober then drunk"

"etc"

I mean pick one statement and stick. Is getting drunk done gradually enough that you can make a conscience decision, not to drink more or not drive home....

or, does it happen so fast and so random there is nothing you can do outside of swearing off alcohol forever?

See there is a difference between perfect all the time, and having fucking common sense all the time.

Moving on from you and to the guy that makes an interesting point about celebrity deaths and whether or not it's okay to joke about them. It's one of them moments being a celebrity does make you different from normal people. Even then everyone made fun of the guy that had sex while having sex with a horse. Not saying that's the same as the drunk driving incident but, once you are known for anything and die. If there is a joke to be made, there will be. My family and friends die. I don't really grieve. Some people do. We probably shouldn't rub it in peoples faces someone they cared about died, but friends of famous people will probably be more likely to hear them "inappropriate" jokes then friends of regular people.

Posted by: googergieger at July 1, 2011 10:32 PM

@ Protoguy

I have read your posts and it seems that you are trying to say that driving while intoxicated (DWI) is not a big deal and is okay in certain circumstances. Am I wrong, did I misinterpret what you are saying?
DWI is a serious crime for a reason. I know that people engage in a wide variety of incredibly stupid and dangerous activities while intoxicated, but few activities are such a grave and imminent threat to the public as DWI. There is no excuse to drive under the influence ever. The "sneak up on you drunk" justification won't hold up in court, nor does it here.

Posted by: androstarr at July 2, 2011 12:19 AM

"To the living we owe respect. To the dead we owe the truth."
Voltaire

Posted by: Rohit Arya at July 2, 2011 1:04 AM

"You must be my lucky star, cause you shine on me wherever you are."- Madonna

Never said I was great at quotes.

Posted by: googergieger at July 2, 2011 1:15 AM

I once knew this person who died, and in the spirit of the point I'm trying to make I won't go beyond that. When I heard about it I privately said, "Good riddance. That guy was an abusive, racist asshole. One of the biggest bastards I've ever met."

I've never felt guilty about saying it, but I am not so shameless that I said it publicly. There's a stigma against speaking ill of the dead a) out of sensitivity to loved ones of that individual and/or b) because people who didn't know the deceased are not operating on the idea that this was a bad person. All they know is someone is dead, and you're the dick saying upsetting things to people who are already grieving. Regardless of the obvious facts of someone's life and death, most people behave with those ideas programmed into their thought processes. It's why everybody gets a little uncomfortable when they hear or say something nasty about the dearly departed.

I don't feel bad about judging people who make bad decisions, especially if that decision leads to their death or the death of someone else. If someone was a jerk their entire life and they die, it doesn't make them less of a jerk, and because of that people will quietly say so even after they are dead. But most people are tactful enough to realize that they don't need to broadcast those sentiments.

Ryan Dunn's friends and family know he drove drunk, and they know that the consequences fall on him for deciding to get behind the wheel. Being that Ryan Dunn is dead and is not the one who has to deal with the fallout of his actions and the things others say about him, I really don't understand that point of making statements like the one Ebert did. He was only upsetting people who are already grieving; it's not as though Ryan Dunn is going to be shamed by it now. If Ebert wanted to come out against drunk driving, how about doing or saying something constructive? Make a donation to a charity, or cause related to alcoholism in memory of Ryan Dunn, or say just something like his prayers are with the family and friends of the dead. As far as I'm concerned the statement was meant to be a publicity stunt, intended to for no other purpose than to stir up controversy.

Posted by: oodlesofnoodles at July 2, 2011 2:53 AM

I may be unknowingly parroting comments made above somewhere, but I'm afraid I don't have the time to wade through every single word of the debate.

I am not in any way trying to defend Dunn when I say that I'm sick of everyone talking about how he "killed" someone. Getting into a high end car with a known maniac who is obviously pissed out of his skull and allowing him to drive at that insane speed implies some complicity. Unless Dunn physically forced the other passenger into his car, I think they are both equally culpable in a reckless and stupid act that could have killed some innocent folks (and thank fuck that didn't happen). As far as I'm concerned the passenger was no more killed by Dunn than Dunn was killed by the passenger letting him drive. They both brought this grief on themselves and their families.

As for the overall debate, I don't see the point. Say whatever the fuck you want about the deceased. People who feel differently will say whatever they want about you and so on. That's how discourse works. I firmly believe that the only reason to censor your opinions in a case like this is to avoid the trouble of having to defend them.

This argument can accomplish nothing. I don't think anyone believes an answer will be reached that will satisfy both the Dunn-haters and the Dunn-lovers. Regardless of who you quote or what arguments you use to back up your arguments, the question of speaking ill of the dead is a matter of opinion, and this is not the type of issue that people usually reverse their opinions on.

So I say again: Say whatever you want, but be prepared for the un-winnable and pointless fight that you will no doubt find yourself drawn into.

Posted by: Pfft at July 2, 2011 4:39 AM

But seriously, is anyone really surprised that a member of the JackAss cast died in a drunken fiery car crash? I'm just thankful he didn't take out more people than his shithead friend.

Posted by: wsapnin at July 2, 2011 9:48 AM

I agree that you shouldn't speak ill of the dead to spare living. Also, in a case like this Ryan Dunn was essentially rewarded by the public for behaving dangerously. By watching Jackass, we bought him that Porsche. What he did was irresponsible and tragic, and shouldn't be ignored, but but it's hipocritical to say "entertain me by being stupid", and then vilify him for the same behavior.

Posted by: Lady at July 2, 2011 1:25 PM

When I originally commented I clicked the -Notify me when new comments are added- checkbox and now each time a comment is added I get four emails with the same comment. Is there any way you can remove me from that service? Thanks!

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