Pajiba

Well said. I enjoy death metal and gratuitous violence just as much as anyone else. My parents let me watch movies that I really shouldn't have when I was a kid. Case in point, I think I was 7 or 8 when I first saw the Blues Brothers. Yeah, that was appropriate. I haven't acted out anything that I've heard or seen in a movie and I'm certainly not sane. It's called parenting and sacking up and taking responsibility for raising your offspring. That concept has been lost to most people for a long time.

It's similar to people blaming Marylin Manson and NIN for Columbine. Music doesn't make people shoot others. Irresponsibility and not instilling a sense of how to fucking deal with the world does.

I hate people.

That was fantastic. I was raised by two non-partisan Mormon parents who are wonderful people. They taught me right from wrong and let me go through each horrible phase of my life. I eventually turned in the person I am because of the influence of my parents. Sure movies have also greatly influenced my life, but only in aspects of mentally intellectual and critical thought, never physical actions. That's just, stupid...

I will gleefully attend the midnight showing of Kick-Ass this week.

I'm certainly not sane.

Posted by: Melody at April 14, 2010 2:19 PM

psst! I'm sorry I couldn't help it...

YOU DON'T SEE EM PLACING A DISCLAIMER ON THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST THAT YOU SHOULDN'T GO SEE IT CAUSE IT MAKES YOU HATE JEWS!!

I'm kidding.

Put another stick in the "raise-your-kids-right" pot for me.

Your assertion that sex is a bigger concern to many is dead on. In the screening I attended, I was waiting to check in with the screening rep, and this middle aged woman was speaking to the film rep about how she was horrified that the movie was being marketed to teenagers, and she could not believe how pornographic the film was.

Huh? There is some side boob, insinuated masturbation, and one sex scene in which both people were fully clothed, no nudity. However, she went on and on about how this was offensive. No mention of the graphic violence whatsoever. I couldn't believe it.

Good piece. Drives me nuts that every single rated R movie I go to tons of parents tote their kids along. You are right, this movie is not supposed to be seen by kids. It's your own fault if you are stupid enough to let them see it, not the filmmaker's.

"Every time I started writing this piece, I started to lose my mind and ended up swearing furiously."

That's how I feel when extremists of any kind start spouting off about how everyone else should live their lives. You know what? Go fuck yourselves. Who put these people in charge of anyone's moral compass? I am much more afraid of what the children of Disproportionately Reactive people will do than some other kid that is creative and ballsy enough to get into an R-Rated movie. Getting into shit and doing things you're not supposed to is part of the fun of growing up. Being too controlling is just as bad for kids as no control whatsoever.

This also slams home the unfortunate fact that Puritanism is dug so far under the skin of this nation that we'd need a knife the size of Uranus to dig it out. Some people are so afraid of things they don't (or refuse to) understand that it borders on the psychotic. Hating something is a million times easier than understanding it, so Disproportionately Reactive people are passing on to the next generation this desire to apathetically hate things for superficial reasons. And teach them how to twist every moral lesson put to paper 2,000 years ago to fit their narrow world view. I know that religion is a wonderful force in most people's lives, but it is enormously dangerous in the hands of retards.

I gotta go drink some coffee and calm down.

Bravo. Take a bow

OK, let's slow down just a bit and think about this.

First, there is a time for outrage and then there is just outrage for outrage's sake. If there is a legitimate threat of censorship or of powerful special interest groups exerting pressure on corporations that produce and distribute films, that's one thing. If a marginalized Christian News outlet that can't even afford a decent copy editor tosses out an inflammatory press release urging readers not to take their kids to an R-rated movie just to drum up some outrage among their base, well, is it really worth our time and energy to respond to it? When the crazy fundies attack Harry Potter the only people who take them seriously are you guys who get all offended and give them much more attention then they deserve. Pick your battles. If a school library bans Harry Potter, it's time to get involved. If a school cancels the prom because the gays want to come, get involved. But don't chase after every carzypants attention-whore who pulls your tale because it just gives them what they want and crowds out the issues that really do need attention.

And this is a movie, not a schools issue. And it's a movie for adults. It succeeds or fails at the box office. If it breaks $100M they will make squeals and knock-offs and keep one-upping the violence until we are all sick of it and practically begging the religious right to shut down production of Eli Roth's "Decapitation Man IV". If the market doesn't support big studio pictures where kids say "cunt" then it's back to indie-land where the writing is better and the effects budgets are smaller. The Christian News story is a non-issue.

Another point I want to make is: don't overstate your case and don't miss the point with faulty reasoning. Do you seriously believe that these films don't glorify violence? I think "these films teach kids that killing and shooting people is fun" is a foolish thing to say but it's not crazy to suggest that these movies present graphic violence in a manner that is exhilarating and largely consequence-free. I expect plenty of 18-year-olds to get a rush out of it I don't doubt that minors would to. That doesn't mean they are learning life lessons but don't pretend the problems of glorifying and desensitizing violence to children doesn't exist. Just because it won't mass-produce serial killers (which is not the point they were making) doesn't mean it is harmless.

Parents have a right to try to control what they kids are exposed to. I happen to think it's a fools errand to try to shelter your kid from sex, violence, and the rest of modern society, but then again I happen to think most of these conservative Christian parents are fools, too. You are correct that if you give your kid a good, solid foundation and a quality upbringing, odds are they are going to be ok. Escapist violence in comic books, cartoons, and movies is a healthy and natural outlet for a child's creativity and emotional development. Contextualizing fantasy vs. reality is something they are easily capable of at a very young age. The biggest problem with these Christian families is that part of raising them well is talking about the sex & violence in society, addressing the bad influences and giving the kids some context. Most of these families are really bad at this and it warps the kiddos. That, and some of them really have a hard-on for trying to control other people.

Look, I agree that it's all bullshit, but what are you going to do? On a national and global level the Christian conservatives are losing the culture wars. They have been getting their asses kicked for a long time now and it doesn't show any sign of going backwards. On a local level they still have some strongholds, and there are still anti-censorship battles worth fighting, but choose them wisely.

And be careful what you wish for. There are a lot of consequences of increased permissiveness in what we establish as standards for decency. I don't idealize a roll-back to more restrictive times but we are heading toward "Ouch My Balls" on TV and "Ass" at the box office a bit more quickly than I'd like. As with most things, a reasonable and moderate position is usually the best one.

(For the record, I WAS homeschooled, and I turned out...mostly sane.)

I'd like to add some thanks to TK for including that article about "Golden Rule Day," as it helps prove his point about not all bible-bashers being assholes, and also because, really, that is mighty cool.

One of my favorite rants (I have several that can be pulled out of nowhere at the drop of a hat) is that not everything about kids is for kids. Look at Lord of the Flies, Catcher in the Rye, Cat's Eye, Great Expectations, etc. There are plenty of books (and, clearly, movies) that use childhood as a metaphor or are retrospective without being juvenile.

You go, TK.

Scathing, indeed.

I think it's not about what THEIR kids will take away from the movie, but rather what they fear YOUR kids will take away from it. THEIR children are god-fearing, perfect angels. YOUR children probably want to smoke cigarettes and touch girls' boobies, which we all know is one Kick-Ass viewing away from a murder rampage. It's true. Science told me.

@ Yossarian, your comment made me think once again about how lately I've been wondering how I reconcile my attitude that "movies/teevee don't make people do things/act inappropriately" with my attitude that "commercial advertising is the root of all evil because it creates greed and eating disorders." How can I say that seeing violence in a television program doesn't cause people to go out and commit violence, but skinny girls in ads make people starve themselves to attain that look, or expensive items presented in a sexy manner make people sell drugs or mug people for the money to buy them? It's something I've been struggling with of late.

Ugh. I find myself incredibly inarticulate today.

@ Slash

No, here's my problem (with your comment, with TK's rant, with all of it).

When you sit yourself diametrically opposed to the religious people who are trying to dictate how other people should live and you start hurling stones at them, indiscriminately and then attacking what they believe in, and basically trying to enforce your idea of how people should behave on others (... do you see where this is going yet?)

You are doing the exact same fucking thing! Jesus, I feel like I am taking crazy pills here. And I like you guys, I really do. I understand where you are coming from, I see the points you are trying to make and I want to help you.

Don't make blanket statements about how harmful the things that other people choose to believe in are. Don't have such thin skin that words and actions of other people can wound you. Don't think that you can change the world to suite your worldview. Adapt, motherfuckers. Live with it.

Someone above suggests that those Christians need to get their own house in order before meddling with other people. A lot of people point out that if you raise your kids well this "harmful" matter won't dissuade your solid upbringing.

Well, the good news is you're right. The bad news is you need to take your own advice. Repeat after me: I CAN'T CONTROL WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO, THINK, OR BELIEVE IN. I CAN'T CONTROL HOW THEY RAISE THEIR KIDS OR SPEND THEIR TIME AND MONEY.

It's that simple. Take care of you and yours first and foremost. Make the world a better place with positive additions, not negative attacks. If YOU raise YOUR kids right, it doesn't matter what textbooks they use in Texas or weather or not the science teacher can hide his disdain during the evolution lecture. It doesn't matter because YOU have the power to raise YOUR kids.

And if you don't have kids, what are you worried about? Are you worried about how other people raise their kids? Are you fighting for the hearts and minds of the huddled masses to dumb to think for themselves? Well, just try to be aware of the hypocrisy inherent in your position is all I'm saying.

It's not pretty. Most people are dumb, I get that. I see it daily. But my daughter is going to be ok because the most important thing I do every day is make sure of that fact. If and when I can, I try to make the world a better place. Usually by tutoring kids, donating books, giving to causes I believe in, and trying to enlighten people on internet message boards of course.

Wonderful rant. God, that press release pisses me off so much. So much stupidity.

Yossarian:

I see where you're coming from. I understand what you're trying to say. I disagree on these counts:

1)TK was not making blanket statements about all Christians and was very clear on that point.

2) I feel your argument is defeatist. We can't change their minds, so why try? I feel that this is exactly the kind of thinking that allows groups like these to attack works of art with baseless assertions without fear of criticism.

3) Whether or not it's "worthy of our time" is not a question necessarily of money or power but a matter of principle and how it's utilized. TK felt compelled to respond to this specific blog post as a way to make a larger point. Maybe two people saw the original post before this. That doesn't mean it gets a free pass from the analysis of someone who is compelled to argue a point.

I'm just saying, while we need to recognize hypocrisy, I feel that this essay was not hypocritical, and therefore I think you need to reconsider your main arguments.

I realize it may sound defeatist, but it's also tailored to the audience. I don't believe in always rolling over at the first sign of conflict. There are plenty of times when we need to fight for our freedoms that are under attack, or drum up awareness for important issues. As I said, pick your battles.

I just hate the pointless outrage and rilling up the base. Anytime you lob a softball like that out to an audience like this you aren't really accomplishing anything but contributing to the noise. (I'll leave it up to you to determine if I was referring to Pajiba Christian News). When I see the eyes glaze over and the demonizing begin I shake my head. Everyone gets dirty, nothing gets accomplished.

And it wasn't even an honest discussion. I'm all for dialogue but do it right. Sex and violence in mass media does have an effect on society. In fact, it has a lot of complex effects on society. In some ways it is good, in some ways it is harmful. The "I watched violent movies and I never killed anyone so there must be no problem" argument is weak. The real issue is complicated and means you actually have to think and engage and meet people halfway.

Yossarian,

I have to admit when I read your diatribe I did feel applicably humbled. You do have a tendency to bring great points to the table, which are of course scripted incredibly eloquently.Although, the more I thought about it the more I realised that your whole point was flawed.

I mean aren't you doing the same thing by saying 'dont have an opinion how others should live, here's how you should live.' That right there is the problem. Human nature is incapable of rising above the need to have opinions on other's life styles. We ALL do it. I think at the very least telling people to raise their children is the least obtrusive opinion someone could possibly have. Noone is telling anyone how to raise their children. They are simply telling them TO raise them instead of leaving the responsiblity on musicians and film makers. Chances are if Musicians and film makers wanted to raise children, they'd go have some.

Anyone read what the Daily Mail was saying about kick-ass when it came out in the UK? Among the things they were saying was that it sexualised young children and describes Hit Girl as the most sexually aggressive character in the film.

Admittedly I dont go to the Daily Mail for reasoned opinion more to anger myself but still their stance is pretty reactionary to say the least.

RE Yossarian:

"No, here's my problem (with your comment, with TK's rant, with all of it). When you sit yourself diametrically opposed to the religious people who are trying to dictate how other people should live and you start hurling stones at them, indiscriminately and then attacking what they believe in, and basically trying to enforce your idea of how people should behave on others (... do you see where this is going yet?)"

I'm not trying to enforce shit. I made a comment on a website. Please calm yourself. I simply said these particular religious people (plus other religious people) are hypocrites in their condemnation of made-up movie violence. I don't care if you agree. See how that works?

If I misinterpreted your comment, well, sorry about that, but not too sorry. Shit happens.

"DO NOT LET YOUR KIDS or GRAND KIDS WATCH THIS FILM when it comes out in the theaters on April 16th.That shouldn’t be difficult, since it’s a hard R action movie that’s not intended for your “kids and grand kids,” and that’s on purpose."

Spot on - I couldn't agree more. Of course, it's completely unrelated, but it reminded me of something... They don't rate theatre performances (at least in the UK they don't). I went to see Avenue Q some time ago and sat next to us was a family with 3 children who looked between the ages of 5 and 11. The show was a blast, but I got most of my laughs from occasionally catching the mother's facial expression - I bet she had thought it was going to be JUST a puppet show based on Sesame Street. Dear oh dear, I still giggle sometimes (giggling now, actually) when I think of all the explaining she would have had to do that night. I hope she did get on with the explaining before one of the kids googled "what is porn". Tee-hee.

This reminds me of this (this is absolutely true)--when Powerpuff Girls movie came out, a "Christian parenting" website reviewed it. The way they did it was to count the number (and type) of bad words, violence, nudity, etc. were shown. The review noted under Nudity "one" instance of cartoon monkey butt in the movie.

Yes, your little darling watches one shot of _cartoon_ monkey butt (not covered with pants) up on the screen, and he/she will go out and start having sex with monkeys. Jeesh.

That's why I am always the guy defending Twilight. And I don't even like Twilight, I just like debating you crazy asses and being a contrarian.

I totally forgot that you were the asshole defending Twilight! And for the same reasons that TK is defending Kick-Ass, if I recall correctly.

You know what I think? People who just say shit to be contrary are wasting their lives and other people's time.

Ah no hard feelings Yossarian, Like I said I felt properly put in place by your first post. I mean on a lot of levels your right. The article that's in question here is one of the least up in arms I've seen from a conservative christian website. I mean that didn't damn the movie and all of it's evil. They just said not to let your kids watch it. I'm assuming because they never took the time to look at the rating. But like yourself I love the fact that Pajiba gives us a place to debate this stuff.

The only argument that i can really make towards the whole point is that preventing you child from observing reality does not prepare them for actually dealing with it. (Let me preface this by saying I wish I wasn't haveing this conversation about a movie like Kick-Ass, but preferably something a little more thought provoking.) Stopping your children from observing things that happen on a daily basis in the real world, such as violence foul language and magnificent sex, does absolutely nothing to benefit them.

That doesn't mean show your kids a bunch of slasher films. It does mean that part of parenting is being able to have your children come in contact with issues like these and be able to give them solid answers as to how they should deal with it.

Have you ever met a catholic school girl? 9 out of 10 of them will blow you right now. Why? because repression is a very dangerous thing. Don't tell your kids to never ever ever fight or fellate. Children need to be educated about the dangers of real sex and real violence so they are able to make an informed decision when the time comes.

Now that's my much-needed dose of vitamin Rant! Great article - one that should be above the fold and on the covers of parenting publications!

It turns out that "overly indignant cockroach" is right in my laughter's wheelhouse. Fuck, that's funny to me. Thank you, TK.

ChristianH,

Maybe you're right that those positions are inconsistent. Definitely you are right that I am being contrary, although I don't think introducing these ideas was a waste of time. At least not any more a waste than building up and tearing down the strawman position that Kick Ass will turn kids into killers.

And ultimately I want to make it clear that I do not, in any way, support the ideas espoused by the Christian News Service (or whoever it is). I think over-protecting kids from violence & sex is the wrong approach, but you don't change anything by ranting against it for all the wrong reasons. Nathanael a few comments up says it better than most. I just thought these comments could be improved by making people stop and think about their position- just like when they hate on Twilight.

Blank,

It was all in good fun, and I welcome the debate as long as it avoids personal attacks. Truthfully it was a rough day at the office (layoffs tomorrow, not for me but it will impact me because it's in my department) and an hour engaging the smart set at Pajiba was just the distraction I needed.

Amazing, AMAZING article TK. I have a 7-year-old and am actually just now starting to worry about what she watches, mostly because we stick to TV shows and not movies and you don't get too much *offensive* stuff with TV shows.

Unfortunately the other day we were watching Role Models and she heard the term "blow job" for the first time. So of course she asked what a blow job is. To which I replied, "It's when a boy puts his penis in someone's mouth." -- I had to tell her, it's just the way I raise her. But what's worse is that when she makes the requisite gagging barf noises at the thought of someone actually wanting to do that, I tell her (as though this is somehow soothing) that it's better than it sounds. I don't know... it made sense at the time.

Moral of the story, don't let me babysit your kids. Amen.

fullertonregan, I am now considering having children specifically for the purpose of having you babysit them. That's awesome.

That said, Role Models does not seem like a movie for a 7-year old. Not because it will corrupt them forever, but because they wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't get most of the jokes, so what's in it for them?

@MM

That said, Role Models does not seem like a movie for a 7-year old. Not because it will corrupt them forever, but because they wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't get most of the jokes, so what's in it for them?

Right you are. We're kind of a "white noise" family where we bury our noses in books or the interwebs & leave the TV on in the background, so I guess we weren't watching it per se. Well, I wasn't watching it, but apparently the kiddo was. Honestly, I don't know what she gets out of half the stuff we have on TV, I think she just likes being where everyone else is.

Kids need to be submerged in a steady stream of filmed violence even more than those damned vitamins they're always carping about. If they can't watch the 'Hard R', how else will they be able to receive the beatified, gently smiling message that I deliver in my screenplay, 'We Need To Talk About Uwe.'

Stay Alert,
Stay Safe.

Recondite,

Yeah, those fucking Christians should just take all their relief efforts in places like Haiti and the soup kitchens they run here and their help for the poor and unfortunate and just go mind their own goddam fucking business. That message of "peace" and "love thy neighbor as thyself"? What a load of hoo-ha. Everybody knows nothing good ever came out of religion.

Dear figgy,

I don't know what you chose as the EE winner last night, and frankly, I don't care. Chuck it all out, the whole damn list. Even if I'm No. 1, toss it to the curb.

courtney ftw and Nos. 2-10 as well.

Thank you.

Your friend,

Yes, I wish religious nuts like this one wouldn't try to use their platforms to force their beliefs on us:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100414/REVIEWS/100419986

I think that point that is missed in this discussion, that Ebert makes so well, is that the real damage, the real influence that is worrisome, is that which movies like Kick-Ass have over those who are not being properly parented (which is vague and up to interpretation, but surely we could all agree on some things that constitute improper parenting). Improper parenting may be found in the homes of the comically stereo-typed "crazypants religious folks," it may be found at the homes of those who want nothing to do with any form of religion (or with Jesus), or it may be found in foster homes, in group homes, or on the street where parenting is done by gang leaders, video-games, TV, and movies. Some of the Christian groups are doubtless getting worked up in the wrong ways and for the wrong reasons, but I'm with Ebert: "When kids in the age range of this movie's home video audience are shooting one another every day in America, that kind of stops being funny."

Ramon, come on. You can't possibly believe that NBK was wholly responsible for Columbine? I've seen NBK dozens of times... never killed anyone. Those two students were bullied and they were, you could say, a bit unbalanced. It's incredibly ignorant to blame a piece of film for violence. If someone is so weak-minded that they can't stumble out of the cineplex, blinded by gory-rage to kill KILL KILL, then if it's not the movie, it's something else that will do it.

The religious zealots have been trying to tell us how to live our lives for... ever? Maybe? Like TK, I grew up on horror films, on porn, on b-movie crap and all that's happened is that I now know a bad movie when I see it. I know now dozens of crap-tastic cliches from the genre. I can tell a fake tit from a mile away. However, I do not know the touch of a dying man by my own hand.... sorry.

TK - I'm new to the site and loved the article and I loved the movie. Keep up the good work!