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Gay in 2011: How Homophobia Lost Its Cool

By Michael Murray | Posted Under Think Pieces | Comments (123)



Tracy Morgan.jpg

The other night my wife and I watched X-Men: First Class.

I hadn’t mentioned anything, but I wanted to see Jennifer Lawrence’s portrayal of Mystique, which is another way of saying I wanted to see Jennifer Lawrence naked. We all know how Rebecca Romijn had perfected the role with her body in earlier versions of the franchise, but I wanted to see how the plain-spoken determination that Lawrence displayed in Winter’s Bone would translate into nudity.

I was optimistic.

However, very, very quickly I found myself utterly mesmerized by Michael Fassbender.

fassbender.jpgHe was sexy. Jesus, he was dead sexy. And then there was James McAvoy. He was sexy, too. Sexy in a different way, but still sexy. Together, the chemistry they shared burned through the screen and I simply couldn’t take my eyes off of them. I mean, I wanted them to do stuff. Pulling myself together, I asked Rachelle, “Where’s Jennifer McLarwebender?”

Rachelle pointed her out.

“So she’s the blue one? Man alive, I just wish she’d get out of the way, sometimes she makes it hard to see Fassbender and McAvoy!”

Rachelle pursed her lips, “So, you want to have a better view of the guys, do you?”

I felt a little defensive at first and said nothing, but I couldn’t contain myself, “Yes! Look at them! They’re hot as hell! Way better than anything on “True Blood”! And don’t you judge me, you’d be in there like a dirty shirt in a second!”

And after just a moment of looking at one another we both nodded and returned to the movie.

Some 20 years ago when I was in high school, to say that you found another man sexy, let alone two of them, spelled certain doom. And it’s not that I grew up in an unusually parochial environment. As far as these things went, the school I attended in Ottawa — one of the larger Canadian cities — was relatively liberal minded. No matter, if you were gay or suspected of being gay, your life was to be misery.

A climate of unceasing and vitriolic homophobia completely smothered the culture in which we existed. This homophobia was more like a rampaging panic than it was anything else, and it trampled whomever might have been standing in the general vicinity of it’s path. This was the norm, not the exception, and with an irony that is almost too great to comprehend, the model of heterosexual masculinity to which we all aspired were the characters in the movie Top Gun.

Top.
Fucking.
Gun.

Top-Gun-is-gay-you-know.jpg

Could there have been a queerer movie? And we thought this was the roadmap for what it was to be a straight guy? I tell you, those were some pretty mixed-up times.

Regardless of all the confusion, one thing was clear, if you were gay, if you even danced well, you were considered deviant by the mainstream. You were made fun of, avoided, insulted and sometimes you were beaten. That was the daily reality. It truly must have been a terrifying experience to go to school each day, and only the bravest and strongest of human beings could have survived that experience with a confident sense of who they actually were.

Many, of course, didn’t.

The wreckage of this is everywhere. I know men, now 40, who always seemed to have had an orientation unique from the mainstream, who have yet to freely embrace the core of who they are. It’s a secret they’ve kept from their families, churches, peers, and in some cases, even themselves, and typically it would manifest in all sorts of different ways.

You could see it in the man sitting at the local bar, his personality changing as he gets drunk and lets slip the rigid control he’d always maintained over the tone of his voice and the type of hug he’d share with another man. Or in the friend who suffers from chronic depression, plagued by migraines, chewing his nails to the quick and going for long walks at night, a man who never seemed at home in his own skin.

It always frustrated me to see this. A generation had passed, things had changed. Why did they deny themselves the happiness, the peace they deserved? But as a straight man who resided in the comfort of an accepting, even nurturing, mainstream, I have absolutely no idea what it must be like to have been shaped by such prejudice and to be burdened by the baggage those days imposed.

Not a clue.

I don’t know what it’s like to have been reared by an imposing Roman Catholic mother or a hard-ass military dad to whom your very nature is a disappointment and point of shame. To not have the opportunity to marry, to be in fact, denied basic human rights is beyond my ken. I can’t even begin to conceive of being reared amidst these constraints and pressures, and if I had, well, I have no doubt the closet would be a likely place to lock myself. Obviously, this denial of self is an immense tragedy.

The Dan Savage inspired “It Gets Better” movement is a stroke of genius. Hopefully, in the struggle for LGBT rights it sparks a great leap forward. The videos, all so well known now, are heartbreaking, beautiful and sincere. Made by geniuses and morons alike, each person tells their story, encouraging those who are going through the living hell that I saw so many live back in high school, not to despair, that things will get better. It’s impossible not to be deeply moved by these, and I honestly think Dan Savage should get a Nobel Peace Prize for so brilliantly placing these survivor stories in the middle of the Civil Rights narrative of North America.

Of course there are myriad obstacles before the LGBT community feels the right kind of invisibility in the dominant culture, and one of these obstacles is the Christian Right, which stands obdurately in the face of the very world in which it lives. At this point, their posture, and other antipathetic religions, seem ridiculous. We all know gay people, we all have gay people in our families, how can one sustain the belief that God hates these people? That they made some choice ( and so what if they did) to be who they are? My mind spins at the increasingly desperate, practically mystical arguments that get trotted out to defend a clearly untenable position.

No matter, things are changing. Making fun of gay people, threatening them or discriminating against them is no longer cool. Whether you think that Tracy Morgan was exercising the artistic freedom a comedian needs to explore dissonances in the world, or if you think he was merely a bigot with a stage, the result was the same. Contrite, he had to beg forgiveness:

“I know how bad bullying can hurt. I was bullied when I was a kid. I’m sorry for what I said. I didn’t mean it. I never want to use my comedy to hurt anyone. My family knew what it was like to feel different. My brother was disabled and I lost my father to AIDS in 1987. My dad wasn’t gay but I also learned about homophobia then because of how people treated people who were sick with that. Parents should support and love their kids no matter what. Gay people deserve the same right to be happy in this country as everyone else. Our laws should support that. I hope that my fans gay, straight, whatever forgive and I hope my family forgives me for this.”

Whether Morgan’s mea culpa was sincere, prodded by his boss and LGBT champion Tina Fey or merely an example of economic self-interest is almost beside the point. Power is shifting and the darkest days of fear and shame for those in the gay community are surely disappearing, and hopefully nobody will ever have to hide in the closet again.

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It’s not just in some of us; it’s in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

—Martin Luther King Jr.









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Comments

How about just not mentioning who or what you sleep with at home. Did it ever occur to the more flamboyant that the rest of us don't really give a shit what you do in your private life?

Posted by: Common Sense at June 17, 2011 11:53 AM

Thank you.

For the article.

Not for the asshole that made the first comment.

Posted by: The Gay at June 17, 2011 12:03 PM

That quote at the end of your piece is by Marianne Williamson and was written in 1992. It's been attributed to Nelson Mandela before but never MLK, that I've seen.

It's a nice quote.

Posted by: kate the great at June 17, 2011 12:03 PM

I think Micheal Murray should win a Nobel Prize in Literature.

Posted by: the_wakeful at June 17, 2011 12:03 PM

Murray I think gays should be allowed to marry, also I laugh at gay jokes, I’ve even called people the f-word. I can hold two different thoughts in my head at the same time. Your article was well written. But my problem is that I don’t think people have to think one way about homosexuality. We are all different; we all have prejudices, even gays. Some white gays don’t like black gays, but those same white gays are the first to label anyone that doesn’t believe in their lifestyle as homophobic. I do believe that gay marriage will be the law of the land, and I will be the first in line to cheer. But it also has to be okay if I don’t cheer.

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 12:04 PM

"No matter, things are changing. Making fun of gay people, threatening them or discriminating against them is no longer cool."

You mean it's not right to make fun of the entire male cast of America's Next Top Model? Or figure skaters? Or Tom Cruise and John Travolta?

Posted by: Greedy at June 17, 2011 12:06 PM

Other people's bigotry doesn't make your bigotry acceptable.

Posted by: Katers at June 17, 2011 12:06 PM

Really guy? Did you get all of your information on Christians from the media?

"...one of these obstacles is the Christian Right, which stands obdurately in the face of the very world in which it lives"

That ignorant statement alone makes the rest of your article unbearable. I typically like coming here to read these articles but this is a little far.

"We all know gay people, we all have gay people in our families, how can one sustain the belief that God hates these people"

I really don't want to be THAT guy that quotes scripture but let me tell you that is incorrect.

Posted by: Cinema 4 at June 17, 2011 12:12 PM

Did you read the article COMMON SENSE?

Geez it's the not the 1950's anymore. Who gives a sh*t what anybody does in terms of sexual orientation?

This whole anti-gay thing boils down to one thing, I'm better than you. People will always want to feel superior over other people. When the homophobia subsides people will find a new group to torment. I was raised with the thought that being Gay was wrong but for whatever reason I didn't hold onto that mentality. I don't care if someone is gay or straight or whatever. Be who you want to be. It boggles my mind when I hear the hate that people feel towards Gay people. I think to myself, really? Who cares?

Posted by: junierizzle at June 17, 2011 12:14 PM

I have always been the person to interrupt the bullying of others even before I really knew what it was I was doing. I just knew it was WRONG. I have never understood the "comedy" of attacking others who are discriminated against and it REALLY pisses me off.

Posted by: blacksred at June 17, 2011 12:15 PM

This was so good it almost made me gay.

Almost.

Better luck next, you disgustingly talented bastard.

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 12:15 PM

Michael Murray, you are a beautiful man.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at June 17, 2011 12:15 PM

So well-written as always.

We need to update the Pajiba drinking game to take a shot every time someone says, "I don't want to be that person or I hate to be that person...".

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 12:20 PM

Well said, Mr. Murray. But I'm still going to laugh at the gay jokes. And the cracker jokes and the black people jokes and the Ukrainian jokes and so forth.

Posted by: admin at June 17, 2011 12:22 PM

Weird, I don't understand why Common Sense is being attacked but then I happen to agree... I don't give a shit what you do in private.

Posted by: snapnhiss at June 17, 2011 12:22 PM

This whole anti-gay thing boils down to one thing, I'm better than you.
Posted by: junierizzle at June 17, 2011 12:14 PM

I think it all boils down to "the way you have sex makes me really uncomfortable".

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 12:23 PM

Really great article!
In college, I had a close friend who was slowly coming out of the closet. Another friend, unaware of this, referred to him as a "f*****t" after learning we attended a pilates class together. After throwing him out of my room, he protested that it was only an insult if he was actually gay, saying "I would never call a gay person that!" Homophobia has deep roots, even in people who wouldn't see themselves as homophobic. But bit by bit, I like to think it's changing.

Posted by: The Bean at June 17, 2011 12:25 PM

Michael, great write-up. I completely agree.

Posted by: Single Pringle at June 17, 2011 12:28 PM

He's being attacked snaphiss for expressing the kind of sentiments that include the word flamboyant which suggest the attitude that by the act of living their lives and being themselves, LGBT people are somehow "shoving it in our faces".

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 12:29 PM

I dunno about you guys, but I DESPERATELY want Cinema 4 to quote some scripture about why Christians/Catholics/etc. are FORCED to hate gays. I'm positively vibrating with excitement!

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 12:30 PM

Kballs - He's too busy smashing things with his hammer.

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 12:31 PM

Ms. Julien, thank you. I just spent 20 minutes trying to say what you so eloquently said in two sentences.

Posted by: anon33 at June 17, 2011 12:31 PM

Also, I heartily second Kballs' sentiment.

Posted by: anon33 at June 17, 2011 12:33 PM

I had a Roman Catholic Mother, she didn't hate gays. Talk about stereotyping.

Posted by: Diggerjohn111 at June 17, 2011 12:33 PM

Diggerjohn111 I'm glad to hear that. She should have used more of the time not hating gay people to make sure your reading comprehension ws up to snuff. Try the offending sentence again. You'll get it.

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 12:39 PM

*sniffle* That was lovely.

Posted by: Nimue at June 17, 2011 12:40 PM

Well yes, the flamboyant part was inflammatory but the rest made sense (to me.) Hetero, homo or bi-sexual, I don't like seeing over-the-top PDA. What people do in their bedrooms is their own business.

Posted by: snapnhiss at June 17, 2011 12:41 PM

Excellent, Mr. Murray. Thank you for this piece.

Posted by: tamatha at June 17, 2011 12:42 PM

As my folks taught me, "You're only going to get one life. You can spend it trying to make it what you want it to be. Or you can spend it trying to make it what others want you to be. Your choice."

Posted by: Fredo at June 17, 2011 12:42 PM

No, Diggerjohn111, but the Catholic Church sure does a good job of it.

No, no, it's not hate, it's just that it's sin...

Posted by: Brenton at June 17, 2011 12:43 PM

Diggerjohn111, don't even bother. Hate is okay, apparently, as long as it is pajiba people doing it.

Posted by: Still Cathy After All These Years at June 17, 2011 12:46 PM

Nice piece, Michael. One of these days we won't need them any more because people will grow the fuck up and stop being hateful intolerant bastards.

Posted by: TylerDFC at June 17, 2011 12:47 PM

"the way you have sex makes me really uncomfortable".

What, like the back of a Volkswagon?

Posted by: twig at June 17, 2011 12:47 PM

Oh, and Cinema4, the problem with quoting scripture is that the bible is *full* of contradictions, so anyone using that as a jumping off point has to pick and choose which sections of the bible they want to follow, which means that you are choosing to focus on one tiny, tiny part. Also? If you're Christian, that means you should be focusing on the teachings of Jesus, and last time I checked, *he* didn't say anything specific against homosexuality. I'm pretty sure he was all about loving thy neighbor, taking care of the poor, and fighting injustice. I'm not sure where hating LGBT folks fits into that.

Posted by: tamatha at June 17, 2011 12:51 PM

Sweet christ. I can't stomach some of these comments. Everyone has a fucking torch to carry for any person mentioned in a negative context.

"My dad was in the military and he didn't hate gays! Take it back!" *runs away sobbing*

Gimme a fuckin' break, people. Bunch of emotional cripples wondering around waiting for someone to offend their sensibilities. My father was a military man who didn't give a shit whether you were gay or not, but he used these examples as a way of framing his idea of being raised in a certain kind of home environment. OF COURSE he doesn't think all Roman Catholic mothers or military personnel are raging homophobes. My god, get a fucking grip and stop waving your desperate need for attention in front of the touching, poignant think piece.

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 12:51 PM

Oh Still Cathy, it's not hate, it's SPITE. And we are its ninja warriors.

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 12:52 PM

"He" being Mr. Murray, of course.

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 12:53 PM

(Thanks twig, I was so hoping someone would do that. I was expecting a "well, then don't do it like that.")

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 12:54 PM

I don't know, I think it's kind of an illusion that the backlash about Tracy Morgan and his subsequent apology means things are any better. The media managed to drum up a scandal, but it's not like he just made a gay joke, he said he would STAB HIS OWN SON if he said he was gay. That's just awful and easy to get people worked up about. But half of the Republican candidates have said terrible things about gay people. Gay rights, when put to a popular vote, have always failed. Iowa even scrubbed itself clean of the judges that made gay marriage legal there.

Maybe homophobia has to be more subtle now, but I honestly don't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet.

Posted by: The Wandering Parakeet at June 17, 2011 12:56 PM

@sniphiss
Well yes, the flamboyant part was inflammatory but the rest made sense (to me.) Hetero, homo or bi-sexual, I don't like seeing over-the-top PDA. What people do in their bedrooms is their own business.
Unless it is two very hot women.

Posted by: daria at June 17, 2011 1:07 PM

So no more gay jokes? So when does it stop, no more ethnic jokes? No more religious jokes? Fuck that.
And yes, I did read the article Juniorizzle.

Posted by: Common Sense at June 17, 2011 1:07 PM

Nobody says you can't laugh at gays, just that you can't be an open bigot.

I swear, I will never understand why some people so desperately need to carve out this space. "I can't say nigger?! But that's my favorite word! I call my maid 'Nigger Bitch' and she thinks it's hysterical when I'm handing her a paycheck. I named my boat Niggers Can't Swim and it's true. Why, if I can't call a gay black dude 'nigger fag,' then share a laugh with him about it, then terrorists have truly won. Where did my America go?"

Posted by: Tracer Bullet at June 17, 2011 1:17 PM

Mrs. Julien, my problem was with your nasty comment. I actually enjoyed (and agree with) the article's message.

Posted by: Still Cathy After All These Years at June 17, 2011 1:19 PM

This was a lovely article, Michael. But I'm still not watching that "It Gets Better" video. No, sir.

Posted by: AmbroseKalifornia at June 17, 2011 1:20 PM

Come on, Ambrose, don't be gay. Just watch the video.

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 1:25 PM

Discrimination is for stupid people.
Not "stupid" as a judgement.
I mean, it is genuinely stupid to hate people for being something that can't be changed (see: color of skin). Why someone would seek stupidity as a badge of honor baffles me and always has. We can't change people who behave in this fashion by forcing acceptance. I think we have to expose how stupid they are and keep harping on it. We have to make "stupid" the thing to avoid. Not just shake our heads when we see/hear it. Not just yell about it to our friends. When it happens, we have to say loudly, YOU, THE GAY/RACE/RELIGION/MISOGYNIST HATER OVER THERE! I HEARD WHAT YOU SAID, AND WOW, ARE YOU STUPID! WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE STUPID? STOP IT RIGHT NOW, BEFORE EVERYONE SEES HOW STUPID YOU ARE. JUST SHUT YOUR STUPID MOUTH RIGHT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

Of course that means certain members of congress will never talk again, and many celebrities too, but really, is that a loss?

Posted by: ChickaBoom! at June 17, 2011 1:26 PM

I had an acquaintance in college (circa 2001) who was ordered out of a coffee shop not for being "flamboyant" or engaging in "over-the-top PDA," but for having a rainbow patch on her backpack. The employee said, "This is a family friendly place. We hope you understand." When she told people at our school and her friends, we were all appalled. Unfortunately, we didn't really feel like there was much we could do, except go out of our way to patronize the competing coffee shop.

Cut to stories like these, 10 years later:
http://www.metroweekly.com/news/?ak=6358
http://glaadblog.org/2011/06/16/twins-will-reach-out-to-lesbian-couple-reprimanded-for-kissing/

The viral response to incidents like this, as well as how everyone reacted to Tracy Morgan's rant, would have been unimaginable to me 10 or 15 years ago. When I was a teen, I felt surrounded by casual displays of homophobia, and mostly alone in my outrage.

If someone went back in a time machine to tell a 17 year old me about the "It Gets Better" project, I feel fairly confident in saying that I would NOT have believed them (either about the project's existence or that it would, in fact, get better).

I guess my point is that I really believe the interwebs and social media have helped us reach a real tipping point as a culture, and I'm incredibly thankful for that. The momentum is now on the side of equality and fairness. Homophobic comments on posts and articles don't even bug me as much anymore, because all I see is the petulant foot-stomping of someone who's starting to realize they're on the losing end of a fight.

Posted by: Angeleno Ewok at June 17, 2011 1:29 PM

We all know gay people, we all have gay people in our families,
Ehh no we don't. I don't know a single gay person nor do I have anyone in family. In fact I haven't even met one my entire life

Although that is probably due to the huge amount of homophobia in my country (I am from Eastern Europe). Here it's quite common to see elected official going on about fa*s and how they are freaks and sick and as bad as pedophiles and in fact one of the City Councilman is actually organising a rally against a pride parade that is supposed to happen tommorow. And if you post an article like this in my country at least 3/4 of the comments would be from proud homophobes

Something which I personally don't get. I mean yes I do find the idea of two men together disgusting and pukeworthy. But then it's the same with the idea of fat heterosexual couple. Or an old couple. Or an old dude/lady with a young girl/boy. And I don't see why this should matter. So what I find something not very pleasing. That doesn't mean I should deny them rights or that I should treat them like crap

So yeah I don't really get these passionate homophobic stances. Why get fired up over what people do behind closed doors? Just seems weird. I mean if it's about religion then being an atheist is much worse then being gay but I don't see them put that much effort towards atheists. Honestly the only explanation I can see for those enthusiastic fellows is that they are gay themselves and they have the whole self loathing thing going

Posted by: Minto at June 17, 2011 1:34 PM

That was a fucking GREAT comment, Minto. You couldn't have sounded more Eastern European if we could actually hear your speaking voice while reading your words. Just fantastic. And I mean all this in the best way possible.

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 1:39 PM

Daria, it's actually "snapnhiss" but sniphiss sounds kind of cooler... like someone with a Bostons accent saying snippers.

Posted by: snapnhiss at June 17, 2011 1:40 PM

Boston singular, damn it. Oh, for an edit button.

Posted by: snapnhiss at June 17, 2011 1:41 PM

Minto, looks like you got some stupid on yourself there.

Posted by: ChickaBoom! at June 17, 2011 1:45 PM

Common Sense: do you have the same problem with heterosexual romances in movies? If so, great, continue your crusade against depictions of love and sexuality of all kinds.

And of course you can make gay jokes. You can make any jokes you want. But there tend to be consequences for it.

Posted by: Lucas at June 17, 2011 1:54 PM

Snaphiss and daria I think what you are objecting to is vulgarity. It's an objection I fully support. If that really is what Common Sense is objecting to then it would make no kind of sense for him/her to randomly comment on it in response to this article.

If Minto lives in a vociferously anti-gay community, does it not seem logical that he/she does know gay people, they just refrain from mentioning it out of fear?

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 2:00 PM

Hey pajiba censors, someone used the N-word which Rowles prohibited its use. That person’s name rhymes with “Acer wood-lit.”

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 2:01 PM

KBalls and Tracer Bullet for the win... this time.

Thank you, (Chad) Michael Murray for a well written think piece. I wasn't planning on catching this X-Men because of the absence of Storm, but I luuuv me some slightly homoerotic chemistry - thismovie is now a priority in my life.

Posted by: Rest In Peace at June 17, 2011 2:12 PM

It seems my dad tries to get in an argument with me every day. Over the years he has blatantly become more homophobic, racist, sexist, and biased. Lately his biggest thing has been coming home quoting some Republican nut job bullshit that was spewed that day. Only to make me have to argue against him. I seriously think he's doing it on purpose.

I don't know how I've become the exact opposite of him, but I'm glad I have.

Posted by: DeistBrawler at June 17, 2011 2:16 PM

Thanks Mr. Murray.

Posted by: Melody at June 17, 2011 2:16 PM

Tina Fey is a goddamn fraud. Now she gets to walk around like she taught that young ruffian Morgan about humanity. And she gets to get another award from the LBGT community, but meanwhile that same community tells Obama to kiss their asses. Never mind that Don’t ask Don’t tell will end under his watch, never mind that the justice department has quit defending DOMA in court. Never mind that Obama has made it possible that gay couples have rights when it comes to medical issues on the state and federal level. But do the LBGT community give a fuck about any of that? Fuck no! Obama gets Lt. Dan Choi running around acting like Obama is the enemy.

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 2:22 PM

@ Pookie: "But it also has to be okay if I don't cheer."

No. "Okay" isn't the right word. "Understandable" is what you're looking for. Prejudice isn't okay, but the fact that some people have it and are (or aren't) working through it is understandable.

@ snaphiss: "Hetero, homo or bi-sexual, I don't like seeing over-the-top PDA. What people do in their bedrooms is their own business."

Okay, but that's not what's being argued here. The other problem, especially in Common Sense's argument, is that there might be more tolerance for heterosexual public displays than for homosexual ones. For instance, it's possible Common Sense might not mind the wedding photo on my co-worker's desk which shows him kissing his wife on their wedding day. Common Sense might not like the picture of my husband and me in a similar pose.

Posted by: Mike B. at June 17, 2011 2:24 PM

This might be a long post. I hope it goes through.

@Kballs
"... about why Christians/Catholics/etc. are FORCED to hate gays..."

Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post. I never said that anyone is forced to hate gays. As a matter of fact I said the exact opposite. Nowhere in scripture does it say God hates gays. Nowhere in scripture does it say that He wants us to hate homosexuals either.

If you're DESPERATELY wanting me to quote scripture how about the famous John 3:16. "God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

That's not a hateful God, that's a loving God. He loves you so much that he sent his ONLY son to die so you can be with him. That's love, not hate.

@Mrs. Julien
I actually did just go pick up a hammer at none other than Home Depot!!! GASP!

@tamatha
The thing with "contradictions" is scripture is that 80% of the time the "contradictions" are verses taken out of context and compared to other verses. The other 20% is usually cleared up when you study the culture at which the books were written.

"... Also? If you're Christian, that means you should be focusing on the teachings of Jesus, and last time I checked, *he* didn't say anything specific against homosexuality."

You might not know this but ALL of the Bible is about Jesus. It's not like The Father, The Son and the Spirit have different ideas about how things should go on Earth. If the Bible says something then it's from Jesus.

" I'm pretty sure he was all about loving thy neighbor, taking care of the poor, and fighting injustice. I'm not sure where hating LGBT folks fits into that."

I couldn't agree with you more. It hurts to see so many "Christian" focus their efforts on protesting homosexuals and not showing them the love of Christ through their actions.

I hope the generation that is raising now understands where we, as Christians, have fallen short.

Where I believe scripture is 100% clear that homosexual practices are a sin, it also states many others that seem to be over looked.

I know this comment ran a little long. And debating over a comment section is almost pointless but I hope that I at least showed you that not all Christians are hateful or hypocritical.

Posted by: Cinema 4 at June 17, 2011 2:27 PM

It seems my dad tries to get in an argument with me every day. Over the years he has blatantly become more homophobic, racist, sexist, and biased. Lately his biggest thing has been coming home quoting some Republican nut job bullshit that was spewed that day. Only to make me have to argue against him. I seriously think he's doing it on purpose.

I don't know how I've become the exact opposite of him, but I'm glad I have.

Posted by: DeistBrawler at June 17, 2011 2:16 PM

DeistBrawler, some people can’t see the forest because the trees are in the way. Seems to me your father has raised a person that is not homophobic, not racist, not sexist, and not biased. Most of all, after all these years of your father’s “nonsense” you still come home to talk to him, which has to account for something. Trust me, enjoy what you have.

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 2:36 PM

Excellent article.

Posted by: Julie at June 17, 2011 2:42 PM

"You might not know this but ALL of the Bible is about Jesus."

She...knows about the Jews, right? And the Torah? Because they have a big batch of Beg to Differ they'd like to share over a cuppa while discussing how Christians co-opted Jewish writings to justify their alleged messiah.

(And the Jews borrowed heavily from the Babylonians, who got it from Ancient Aliens. I've seen the History Channel. I know how this works.)

Posted by: Mike B. at June 17, 2011 2:44 PM

Well, being homophobic may no longer be cool in America, but I bet it's still going pretty strong in most of the rest of the world (Asia, S. America, Africa, Middle East).

So yeah, it's nice that gay people here no longer fear (as much) being treated as subhuman (though most still can't get legally married in their state of residence), but the ones in the rest of the world still have it pretty bad.

I've never really understood the point of homophobia. To me, it's always said more about the person who hates than it does anyone else. And no, I'm not saying every homophobe is a closet case, but anybody that concerned about what other consenting adults do in the privacy of wherever is fucked up. When you gotta be all up in someone else's business to the extent that you want the govt. to make sure some group knows they are worth less than you, YOU are the perverted one.

Posted by: Slash at June 17, 2011 2:51 PM

Mike B, I realize my remark doesn't have any bearing on the article, I was actually replying to the reactions against Common Sense's post. I think if s/he had used the word "demonstrative" in place of "flamboyant", there might not have been such an issue. I don't really like seeing posters hear called assholes, etc.

Posted by: snapnhiss at June 17, 2011 2:55 PM

"...I've seen the History Channel. I know how this works."

Oh please no. I really hope that was done in jest. While I really like watching the History/Discovery/Science Channels when it comes to Jesus or Christianity even a new Christian like myself can pick apart their documentaries.

Posted by: Cinema 4 at June 17, 2011 2:55 PM

“Where I believe scripture is 100% clear that homosexual practices are a sin, it also states many others that seem to be over looked.”

Posted by: Cinema 4 at June 17, 2011 2:27 PM

Homosexual Practices? Cinema you think a man is willing to get thrown out of his home and have his family disown him because he’s doing some “Homosexual Practices?” You think that gay teenager is scared to death about his or her feelings for the same sex? What happened to god doesn’t make mistakes? You think gay people can just turn that gay thing off? You think it’s the in-thing to have your head bashed in by a bunch of lunatic homophobes? Gay people have no more choice about being born gay than I had about being born black. You know who blow up abortion clinics? God fearing bible reading Christians, that’s who. Sometimes the scariest thing on earth is a Christian preaching the bible.

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 3:00 PM

Did Michael Murray write any words declaring that the Bible states or God commands that we hate LGBTQ folks? No, I don't think he did. He never said it was God's belief that we hate gays. He did say "how can one sustain the belief that God hates these people?" Yeah, see, it's a fairly large and virulently hateful group of Christians who hold this belief. How do I know? Until the age of 15 I was a member of the Southern Baptist Church, who not only condemned "the queers" but the "mud people" and any other non-white human being. I have heard these "pastors" speak and grew up with the people who believed this bullshit and still do.
Just wanted to make that clarification and state a fact.
Thanks.

Posted by: Spender at June 17, 2011 3:05 PM

"We all know gay people, we all have gay people in our families, how can one sustain the belief that God hates these people"

I really don't want to be THAT guy that quotes scripture but let me tell you that is incorrect.

Sorry, Cinema 4, but you never really specified which part of that statement was incorrect, so I took it to mean that god actually hates them or that gays are everywhere. Using a broad-stroked quote about love (only if you believe in HIM, by the way) doesn't answer anything. That's the equivalent of a one-word answer on a college essay exam.

You also wrote, "Nowhere in scripture does it say God hates gays. Nowhere in scripture does it say that He wants us to hate homosexuals either." So why do so many religions, their leaders, and their followers keep saying that the bible tells them that being gay is a sin? Doesn't make sense. Taking it a step further, I'm pretty sure sinners are supposed to be shown the correct way to live in the name of the lord, ask for forgiveness, and move on with their new lives. Of course, this is impossible with gay people because they're born that way, as Pookie already explained, so the final step in the process of handling gay people is anger and scorn, which leads to violence and hatred in many people (especially those with an absolute belief in their moral position). THIS is what scares people. THIS is what I would love for you to address. And please keep in mind that I am not saying any of these actions or thoughts apply to you personally.

So how can a message you say doesn't exist in the bible be proclaimed as a message found in the bible by other believers? It should be pretty easy to prove either way, right?

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 3:28 PM

You might not know this but ALL of the Bible is about Jesus. It's not like The Father, The Son and the Spirit have different ideas about how things should go on Earth. If the Bible says something then it's from Jesus.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah {long gasping intake of breath}
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
{hiccup, wipes tear}
Oh honey, NO! You seem really sweet, but that is absolute nonsense. You are clearly an intelligent and literate person, please do not discredit yourself or your argument with gaffes like that. That is not a swipe at your faith, it is an error of your rhetoric which detracts from your message, which may be otherwise valid.
I have friends and family who are clergy and Christians who are not at all bigoted and welcome homosexuals into their churches and homes with open arms. The world is a many faceted place, painting with too broad a brush is perilous.

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at June 17, 2011 3:32 PM

@Pookie
*It was kind of difficult to read your rebuttal but I'll give it a shot.*

After rereading your post several times I think the last sentence speaks on many fronts.

"Sometimes the scariest thing on earth is a Christian preaching the bible. "

That's pretty profound and hits home with me. The problem isn't scripture. It isn't God. It's how we, as imperfect humans, interject our own beliefs into what God has already deemed to be true.

I have many, MANY gay friends and family members that I love dearly. I can't sit here and type out any one response that can answer all of the questions that accompany being gay and following Jesus and ALL of his teachings. I know that every one of their situations is different for each one of them and it wouldn't be fair for me to just make a blanket statement. Just like it isn't fair to lump every Christian into the clinic bombers, the 'homophobes' or the ones that "[stand] obdurately in the face of [every] world in which [I] live".

No I don't think it's something that can be just 'turned off'. That's an assumption you made about me for no reason. You shouldn't assume things.

While this will be the last response I'll give before I leave out for the weekend. I'll just say that before you go assuming and just taking other people's words for something as serious as God, do some research. Read something that doesn't mesh with your beliefs. THINK FOR YOURSELVES.

Five years ago I did just that and for five years I've been walking with Jesus as my savior.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance"

Posted by: Cinema 4 at June 17, 2011 3:32 PM

Am I saved now?

Posted by: Nimue at June 17, 2011 3:36 PM

Pray to me, Nimue. I'll make all your dreams come true*.

*Not true. But I will haunt the shit out them.

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 3:40 PM

I really enjoyed your article.
The only thing i want to say is that your quote is from Marianne Willimson NOT Martin Luther King Jr.
Great piece!

Posted by: TimPermanent at June 17, 2011 3:41 PM

You wanna know who else quoted scripture? Max Cady.

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 3:49 PM

Mrs. Julien,
no no! I in no way care about vulgarity, straight gay or otherwise. I simply qouted Snapnhiss ( sorry if I screwed it up again, not scrolling all the way up) statement and stated an obvious hypocrisy. No gay PDA, but if it is two women! They are all about it!

Posted by: daria at June 17, 2011 3:49 PM

"So how can a message you say doesn't exist in the bible be proclaimed as a message found in the bible by other believers? It should be pretty easy to prove either way, right?"

Yes and no. Yes it's in there (somewhere in Leviticus,) but in terms of being considered a sin or not, we're supposed to hate the sin but not the sinner.

The double standard, pick-and-choose style of Bible quoting is the easiest to pick out. Passing legislation to ban behavior described in Leviticus is assinine when compared to the fact that both adultery and divorce carry much more seriousness in that same Bible.

Lev 18:22 - "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"
Lev 20:13 - "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

This is, of course, the same chunk of the Bible that tells us not to do crazy everyday shit like eat shellfish, plant two types of crops in one field (technically, my square foot gardening bed is an abomination unto the Lord) or create labradoodles.

Lev 19:19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."

Leviticus also gave rise to the brilliant "God hates fags and scallops" piece Jon Stewart did on the daily Show a few years back.

But you have to wonder where the same outrage and legislation is when it comes to non-virgins being married:

Deut 22:21 - "she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you."

Or hey, that divorce thing that good ol' straigh folk do all the time.

Matt 5:32 "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

Nevermind that adultery is forbidden by one of the commandments, it doesn't make people feel icky and politicians love it, so let's let that one slide.

It's pick and choose Christianity. If you're going to rely on the Bible to justify your dislike of gays, then you damn well better judge all the good folks around you that break the rest of the rules as well.

Posted by: Markus at June 17, 2011 4:00 PM

I really enjoyed your article.
The only thing i want to say is that your quote is from Marianne Willimson NOT Martin Luther King Jr.
Great piece!

Posted by: TimPermanent at June 17, 2011 3:41 PM

Now that I think of it, when did Martin luther King Jr. ever use the words gorgeous and fabulous in a speech?

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 4:04 PM

Also, leviticus only seems to forbid gay dudes. "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable," from a woman's perspective, is basically "please keep making out with your girlfriend, I'm cool with that."

Posted by: Markus at June 17, 2011 4:08 PM

Markus just gave me a mind boner.

Posted by: Kballs at June 17, 2011 4:09 PM

anybody that concerned about what other consenting adults do in the privacy of wherever is fucked up. When you gotta be all up in someone else's business to the extent that you want the govt. to make sure some group knows they are worth less than you, YOU are the perverted one.

A-fucking-men. When it comes down to it, "Them" and "Us" are all human fucking beings. No more, no less. No one is any goddamn better than anyone else. And P.S. it's none of anyone's goddamn business who I take to my bed; it's my own personal business who I choose to have an intimate relationship with, and I AS A HUMAN FUCKING BEING have every goddamn right to hold hands with that person in public as everyone else does. It's not about gay rights, it's about HUMAN rights.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at June 17, 2011 4:10 PM

Ok I'm really leaving after this comment. I want to go watch Super 8 with my wife. (don't hate me).

@kballs
"So why do so many religions, their leaders, and their followers keep saying that the bible tells them that being gay is a sin?"

Because the Bible is clear that being gay is a sin. For one such reference you can look at the book of Romans, I think chapter 1. There are more, that's the one that always sticks out to me.

"Taking it a step further, I'm pretty sure sinners are supposed to be shown the correct way to live in the name of the lord, ask for forgiveness, and move on with their new lives."

You want to know something that I've noticed about people that struggle with the Bible? They tend to actually understand it more than people that grew up just saying they are Christians.

Yes, yes a thousand times yes. We, Christians, are to love EVERYONE and share the Gospel with them(by words and actions). Not beat them over the head with a Bible until they submit. One thing I would add to that last quote "...move on with their lives now humbly submitted to the will of God."

"...as Pookie already explained, so the final step in the process of handling gay people is anger and scorn, which leads to violence and hatred in many people (especially those with an absolute belief in their moral position)."

Unfortunately that's a two sided coin. I've personally experienced this same hatred from people that don't believe what I believe. If I believe that homosexuality is a sin then I'm called narrow minded. Since I believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven I'm called intolerant and judgmental. By no means have I ever been physically attacked but I hope you see what I'm saying.

"THIS is what scares people. THIS is what I would love for you to address. And please keep in mind that I am not saying any of these actions or thoughts apply to you personally."

Brother, 'ASSUMING' you're a dude, that scares the crap out of me too. I know that this is a comment forum and we've pretty much hijacked the whole board so I don't take anything that has been said personally.

"So how can a message you say doesn't exist in the bible be proclaimed as a message found in the bible by other believers? It should be pretty easy to prove either way, right?"

This late in the workday the only way I bring any correlation into what all has been said is to bring up the Doomsday Church.

If you remember several weeks ago some church members decided that the world was going to end on May 21st (I think).

By all accounts and by the little research I did on the church itself, they seemed to be true Christians. However, They took the inerrant word of God and made it apply to their needs. Unfortunately that's happening on so many fronts of Christianity that it makes everyone look bad, and discredits anything that is taken from us.

I'll leave off by saying that, believe it or not Christianity is a loving 'religion'. If you don't believe me feel free to seriously research what we do as a movement in showing our love for everyone and telling people the Gospel of Jesus. I hope just a sliver of it is shown in how I've taken the time to respond to several people in the comments. And much more is shown in the water wells we dig in other countries and the homeless that we care for in our own backyards.

You guys have a great weekend, and go to church on Sunday (hahahaha)

Posted by: Cinema 4 at June 17, 2011 4:15 PM

See? So predictable...

Posted by: daria at June 17, 2011 4:20 PM

AvB, I love you.

Would you like to hold hands?

Posted by: Cindy at June 17, 2011 4:20 PM

Here's the simple explanation.
God made us and wanted us to worship him by being just like him. Adam & Eve screwed the pooch on that deal right of the bat. So they begat and begat, their youngun's begatted some more and there you go - worldful of people. People, being like they are, went about the business of sinning, so God said "FINE, y'all. Disobey me and I'll smite the Me-Damned hell outta ya. So, he did. People still sinned even after he flooded the place! They didn't learn, even though he'd given them ten easy to remember commandments and a whole users manual of rules! Crazy sinners!
Thankfully, for us, God woke up one day, looked down and said "Dear Me, people, how hard can it be, really?" Being God and all, he could make his own kid through whom to live vicariously on Earth, so that whole Mary & Joseph thing happened and up jumped the Jesus, who was also God on earth. Jesus saw lots of sinnin' goin' on but didn't get pissed and smite people (except for the moneychangers - he fucked them up REAL hard). He talked a LOT about love and forgiveness and watching out for your fellow man and all the things that we oughta be doing but, if we don't, s'okay, cause if we believe in God he'll forgive us. Y'know why? Cause Jesus (aka God on earth) had the living shit tempted out of him by Satan and figured out that if it was dang near impossible for a perfect being to resist temptation, what chance did everyday assholes like us have? None, that's the chance.
So, all things considered, God put together a new book of rules, a new covenant, if you will, which pretty much supersedes yer Judges and Leviticus's and the rest of the old book. Once people realized that they weren't doomed to hell just for being human, they warmed up to the whole idea and after that, this whole Christian religion thing took off and has done okay for itself.
Now, the fact that a buncha kooks wanna pick and choose which parts of the new and old rulebooks to use in deciding what's sin and what isn't keeps me from embracing any kind of organized religion. It's cool. I love 'em anyway cause that's what you do. Heck I even pray for them, which probably pisses them off. I pray that they'llpull their heads out of their asses and see that Jesus didn't die on that cross because he thought it would be a kick. He did it so we would know that the RULES HAD CHANGED.
So, radical Christian Fundamentalists, quit being dick warts and join the civilized world.
Okay?
Thanks.

DS

Posted by: Spender at June 17, 2011 4:54 PM

I don't mind what consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own home, but the more flamboyant Christians are always trying to shove their heterosexual agenda into people's faces, and it just makes me sick. I'm sorry, but I don't think people are born that way; Christianity is a lifestyle CHOICE, and it is possible to live your life differently.

Posted by: Craig at June 17, 2011 5:15 PM

Spender, I love you.

Also, if it's all right, I think I'm going to tear out your Christianity 101 manifesto and hand it out to others as a handy dandy summary of the Bible.

You rock.

Posted by: smijca at June 17, 2011 5:22 PM

I wrote hear instead of here. GAWD! I am SO not posting HERE anymore today.

Posted by: snapnhiss at June 17, 2011 5:43 PM

smijca,
I would be deeply honored and please accept my appreciation for the kind words.
Oh, I love you, too! It's what Jesus would want me to do.
(I am currently loving you from my perch in the oak tree near your kitchen window.)

DS

Posted by: Spender at June 17, 2011 5:48 PM

Craig - You are my new best friend. Call me every 5 minutes!

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at June 17, 2011 5:51 PM

I am an atheist. My only comment here is to congratulate everyone on their thoughtful comments. I've read them all and can say that whatever your beliefs, you've all shown yourselves to be great people.
Except for Craig's comment up there which adds nothing to the discourse.

Posted by: SPAHGHATTAH NADLE at June 17, 2011 5:55 PM

WWPD?

Posted by: Pookie at June 17, 2011 5:57 PM

Craig ignore my last sentence about your comment. Misread it - reading on iPhone is iffy at best.

That comment was hilarious!

Posted by: SPAGHATTAH NADLE at June 17, 2011 5:58 PM

i'm afraid my words will be picked apart and someone will get the wrong idea and vicious circles will be maintained, so i'll just be as blunt as i can:


ugh, gays.

Posted by: gp at June 17, 2011 6:25 PM

*gasp*

*shock*

*HORROR!*

Geeps! How dare you, sir. HOW DARE YOU!

Posted by: Scully at June 17, 2011 7:20 PM

What *would* Pookie do?

What indeed?

Posted by: Anna von Beav at June 17, 2011 7:25 PM

I definitely know gays, but I've always felt strange that nobody in my quite large extended family (that I know of) is homosexual.

Could they be over-represented in the media or something? Not suggesting they shouldn't be, but I've always wondered exactly how much of a minority they are in the world.

Posted by: samcvb at June 17, 2011 7:34 PM

I appreciate that it takes time for people to grow comfortable with behaviors that they themselves don't engage in, but being "OK" with homosexuals as long as they don't ever show any affection in public is not enough. Not nearly enough. There is a big difference between dry humping on the pavement during a hockey riot and snuggling while drinking coffee in a bistro.

It is beautiful to see a grey-haired gay couple holding hands and strolling in the park because you know the struggles that they have overcome in their lifetime makes that moment an act of bravery. Seeing young people snogging is pretty nice too since that means that they might survive the transition to adulthood when so many are not going to make it because of hate.

Posted by: Jennifer at June 17, 2011 8:09 PM

If the Bible is the word of God, are you meant to follow all the words of God or can you just pick and choose at will?

Because that's what moderate, friendly Christians seem to do.

In practical/societal terms, that makes sense. In theory, it seems like a bunch of horseshit.

Posted by: Brenton at June 17, 2011 9:07 PM

100.

Because I always enjoy your columns, and I had not commented on this one yet.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at June 17, 2011 9:09 PM

And I'll add, I just don't get it, I really don't. My Christian friends are all very good people that do all the same things that I do and share the same views that I do, including tolerance of gays and support for gay marriage. So it's just belief Christ? Belief in heaven? Belief in God? But then the Bible comes into play... Ah balls.

Posted by: Brenton at June 17, 2011 9:11 PM

1) Fantastic article!

2) On the world front, did everybody see the news regarding the U.N Council Resolution today? My my, South Africa, when did you get so awesome?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/17/un.lgbt.rights/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

3)As far at the freaking out about being stereotyped as a Christian thing goes, I think the "Christian Right" part is key, and I know there's a broad spectrum of beliefs smashed into that label, but most seem to use the same basic language of discourse and end their thoughts with one of a few well-trod bible verses seemingly uncontrollably, like maybe a Christian spambot is slowing overtaking their keyboard. That's what makes me cringe and experience awful flashbacks of my small town upbringing upon first glance, and I think it's what garners a lot of the instant hurling of brimstone.

That said, I'd like to throw another voice into the mix. You see, there exists a mythical Christian left, which I, and the chupacabras and unicorns are a part of. We're confused and horrified by many parts of the bible, but we respond by always looking to the historical and cultural contexts first, exploring other possible translations, not panicking, and glossing over anything that still fails to make any sense, figuring that it must've meant a lot to the people who originally decided which books made the cut, so we'll just smile, nod, and let it be.

Beyond that, we're basically a bunch of dirty hippies, adamant about the fact that we don't have all the answers and aren't necessarily following The One Right Path, just a path, which we thought looked pretty nifty and decided to explore. Anyone who's ever shopped at the Dollar Tree knows that "one size fits all" is total bullshit.

And that broad stroke "we"? By that I mean "people other than myself and me", not "everybody on this side of the aisle" or only "the chupacabras, unicorns, and me", just to clarify.

When I look at the phrase "abomination" in the biblical sense, I instead read "against cultural norms", and then I chill the fuck out, put on my favorite cotton-wool blend dress, water the mixed pot of basil and strawberries on my balcony, and show up for Sunday services led by my gay pastor.

So far that's all working out pretty well for me, but I'm not about to start trying to drag everyone else into it. If you're not visibly in physical peril, I am not going to try to save you. I'm also not sharing that basil. It's tortellini night here at casa chonto. Fend for yourselves.

Posted by: thenchonto at June 17, 2011 9:29 PM

@ Brenton
Oh, I was typing that for awhile and then saw your post afterward. I hope that answered some of your quandaries, even the ones that seemed rhetorical. I mostly look at the bible through the lenses of various literary critical methodologies in an attempt to find relevance in my own life, or at the very least, some juicy historical tidbits I can throw out at parties.

Posted by: thenchonto at June 17, 2011 10:00 PM

I break the world down into two types of people:

1, Human beings who can get the job done, and

2, human beings who can't.

I am prejudiced against No. 2.

Everything else is bullshit.

There. Seems pretty simple to me.

Posted by: , at June 18, 2011 12:08 AM

thenchonto:
Wise words, well spoken. You are not alone in your beliefs or your actions. There are many like us, we just live quietly and try to do as much good as we can without drawing much attention.
You're my kind of believer.

Posted by: Spender at June 18, 2011 12:57 AM

Spender is my hero. And I'm a certified atheist. (OK, more like an amateur atheist.) But that was one HELL (pardon the expression) of an explanation of the Bible, parts old and parts new!

Posted by: MM at June 18, 2011 3:07 AM

I'm incredibly impressed by both the article and the comments made -- it's one of the reasons I love coming here. That said, I think it's pretty pointless to try to rationally debate the Bible with those who DON'T consider it to be a historic document, written and compiled by man -- and are thus irrational to a fault. Sorry, Cinema 4.

Posted by: Thijs at June 18, 2011 6:07 AM

I don't know...maybe its just me, but I would rather the racists, homophobes, and general shitheads just be out in the open about it rather than hiding behind PC crap.

You can continue to not call gays fags, and if you still treat them as second class citizens, what's the fucking point?

In a similar vein, my uncle would never use the term nigger, yet he treats all black people like they are. He can call them "black folks", "people of color", or whatever, doesn't change the fact he refuses to have anything to do with them and assumes every black person is a crack head ready to steal his shit (ironic thing, my uncle lives in a fucking trailer home and regularly uses illicit drugs, ergo anything of value, he long ago hocked for his ice addiction).

Actions speak louder than words. Especially considering he was doing a fucking comedy show. I mean...is anyone really arguing that hearing Tracy Morgan doing a shocking bit is going to commit a hate crime? Since when did he become the voice of reason?

I know...its easy to make people apologize, to sanitize our collective speech, and have everyone pretend we live in a happy little world that everyone is respected and loved. I just find how our society is so happy to silence anyone that the mass doesn't agree with so creepy. Sort of like we are living in Disney World or something. It sort of explains how pretty much the US citizen can gleefully ignore sending US troops into combat over and over and over and over and over again. Anything that doesn't agree with the collective conscience is intentionally ignored or cutout.

Wow...went on a tangent here...sorry...

Posted by: Diablo at June 18, 2011 8:41 AM

Kudos to thenchonto. I like to call myself an agnostic Christian. I'm currently Episcopalian (my church is hardcore gay-lovin'--or maybe that doesn't sound quite right...) but I grew up in a very Fundamentalist family. I still hear bizarre anti-gay things from my family members even with one nephew out and another cousin who is probably really close to coming out. So it makes me so happy to go to church and see another side of Christianity.

Also, kudos to Michael--beautifully written.

Posted by: pickled tink at June 18, 2011 9:37 AM

Were the people who thought homophobia "cool" ever worth listening too anyway?

Posted by: BierceAmbrose at June 18, 2011 11:01 AM

"to" - How did that happen?

Posted by: BierceAmbrose at June 18, 2011 11:02 AM

To Spender and all you other lovely Christians out there who I adore -

Kudos on your humorous and accurate summary of the Bible. It just blows my mind that after laying out all the pieces this still equals an overall message of love and being saved to so many people. Ok - so the God of the Old Testament: He sent a lot of plagues and started a lot of wars. He also came up with really clever ways to torture people - like turning them into salt, getting them swallowed by whales, Jezzabel was eaten by dogs...ewww, etc. All this because people didn't believe in Him and wanted to do whatever they fancied. He just sounds like a super narcissistic psycho killer. Or, hey even just a jealous malicious child on a serious temper tantrum.

So then he decides the best course of action to end His murder and rage streak is to let His own son be tortured and killed so that the rest of mankind can live. I seriously don't get it....like really...at all. What is the reasoning behind this? Jesus sounds like a true revolutionary hero of love and wisdom - and God sounds like a sick bastard. And I grew up in church, my mom was actually a youth pastor so I'm not new at this.

I do believe there is a very loving God, I just don't think this ancient story constructed by a rather uneducated and barbaric culture thousands of years ago fully interprets who He, She, It, whatever, really is. I think God is bigger than this and trivializing the creator of earth by squeezing Him into this really simplistic explanation and then going so far as to say how specifically He thinks and feels about anything - including homosexuality - well to me that could be considered blasphemy. I'm cool with all of us trying to seek truth and understanding from all those who came before us and desiring a rich spiritual life while using the Bible as a resource for that - but come on. Do you really get to say how God feels about anything just because it's what the Bible says?

Posted by: mediamaven27 at June 18, 2011 4:05 PM

great article. read every comment. thanks, everyone.

Posted by: splinter at June 18, 2011 9:43 PM

One of the best articles on Pajiba in recent memory and a refreshing comment section proving once again why this place is amazing.

Posted by: TWoPFan at June 18, 2011 11:13 PM

Thank you Mr. Murray, your article meant a lot to me.

Posted by: Delilah at June 19, 2011 2:50 AM

I've loved reading through this article and all the comments, and Spender's explanation of the bible is a beautiful thing to behold. The only thing I want to add, for those crying, "what, can no one take a joke anymore?": Tracy Morgan's comments went way above and beyond a joke. His comments were extremely violent and hateful.

Also, no one has arrested him or suggested he not be allowed to speak in public. He has every right to express any opinions he has about homosexuality, or anything else. However, people also have the right to be offended by those statements, to publicly criticize him, and to ask for an apology.

When Lars Von Trier made his lame "I am a Nazi" joke and was tossed out of Cannes, no one was like, "But he was just joshing! C'mon, he's a funny guy! That's just Lars being Lars, amiright?" People were like "Um, dude, not cool. Just, no," and he was forced to apologize. So I think it's pretty reasonable for people to be offended by someone threatening to murder his own children if they come out, and I also think it's reasonable for them to expect an apology.

Posted by: McSquish at June 19, 2011 6:59 AM

When I was in high school many (many) years ago, guys did not touch each other for any reason, other than a slap on the back at a game, it was scandalous to even assume anyone was gay,no one EVER came out, queer and faggot were reserved for those not displaying "normal" male behaviors, same sex marriage was unthinkable,and anyone even remotely different was bullied and beaten.

I work in a school environment now and straight guys hug, there are Gay and Lesbian clubs, students do come out, faggot and queer are used to call someone an idiot as opposed to a homosexual, and one young fellow regularly sports a different colored boa daily.

Trust me, it is getting better. Slowly, and there are still homophobic neanderthals out there, but being gay is much more accepted now among America's schoolchildren. There is hope.

Posted by: kirbyjay at June 19, 2011 7:19 AM

Fabulous. The whole thing. The article, the comments, good stuff. This is one of my favorite things about Pajiba. Not that anyone cares about my love or that it matters that I love it but there it is. Good on all y'all.

Posted by: Shonda Always Late To The Party at June 19, 2011 11:52 AM

While reading through these comments it occurred to me that we are now preserving contemporary opinions in way that was never possible before the advent of the internet. Your grandchildren won’t have to ask you what your reaction to this civil rights struggle was and take your word that you were an ally through and through. The way I have to take my grandparents word that while they never marched for the equal rights their generation demanded, they voiced their support and voted for equality. It’s all here. I wonder, if there was an internet in the 60’s how many of us would beam with pride at our grandparent’s casual support for the civil rights movement that defined their generation, and how many of us would discontentedly excuse their casual bigotry to their age.

Posted by: Piato is Vindice at June 19, 2011 2:58 PM

I can't wait until we live in a world without feelings about anything at all.

Posted by: drdysentery at June 19, 2011 4:39 PM

It's fascinating how immorality has become a "civil right" and taking a moral stand has become "hate"...

Posted by: vesey at June 21, 2011 3:05 PM

Sorry, I know this thread has been basically over for two days, but I couldn't bear to have the above comment be the last thing in the discussion.

Keep promoting love and justice, everyone. I love this site, its insightful and overall mature discussions, and even the drama queens. This article was fabulous and the bishop made me cry.

I went to a Roman-Catholic all-girls high school, and I can tell you that "taking a moral stand" (as vesey calls it) DOES hurt others and DOES reek of hatred. My best friend of ten years is a lesbian and went to school with me. We'd leave religion class crying, worn out trying to stand up for her and others. Once, a "gay therapist" or something came in with a powerpoint about his "research" taken from 69 guilt-ridden gay men at a Catholic ex-gay program about how gay men were never monogamous after five years of marriage (and he WAS generalizing. He actually said "zero percent"), and my best friend sat next to me shaking, while I, shaking myself, debated with the man while trying so SO hard not to cry myself.

Once, my Global Issues class wasn't allowed to help a charity that housed former prostitutes because two of the women were engaged to one another. And we could not work with a charity that "promoted" homosexuality.

So, yes, "taking a moral stand" and being so buried in doctrine that you are blind to what is moral in the real world, IS "hateful."

What is truly immoral is caring so much about what strangers do in their bedrooms and forcing your religious beliefs to fit into everyone else's lives. I'm a vegetarian, but I do not give two shits if you eat meat yourself.

Sorry, I just meant to write the first two paragraphs and end there, but sometimes I care a little too much.

Stop judging.

Posted by: Alwyn at June 24, 2011 2:53 AM