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Forks Over Knives Review: You're Vegetarians. Nobody Cares What You Think.

By Brian Prisco | Posted Under Film Reviews | Comments (78)



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In December of 2008, I was hospitalized for high blood pressure. Through an unfortunate combination of medication swapping and poor lifestyle choices, my blood pressure had shot up into the danger zone for stroke. Though I follow the exercise philosophy that it’s best not to run unless chased — and only then by a bear or equivalent land shark — I’m not exactly a sedentary individual, and I had been on a simple exercise regimen at that time. However, my blood pressure was so high that they couldn’t give me the simple treadmill test to determine it, since it was spiking well into the 200s. Upon leaving the hospital, the ER doctors had given me six prescriptions — for blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, stress, etc. I went to my personal physician and said, “Look, I’m not taking this shit. And I’m also not taking this shit lying down. I just spent four days in a hospital bed. Fuck that. If I promise to change my diet, which of these do I need to take?” Knowing what a stubborn bastard I could be when I was determined, he scrapped every scrip but the blood pressure meds. And from that day I started on a whole foods diet — whole grains, no dairy, low portions of meats, five meals a day, high fiber. And I’m not going to lie, it was fucking delicious. I was eating more than I did before, and it didn’t take long to prepare the foods. I shopped at farmer’s markets, and we weren’t spending more on groceries than we were before. I returned to my doctor, two months to the day. My cholesterol had reversed 100 points — all the bad was swapped out for good. My diabetes — gone. Completely fucking gone. My blood pressure had dropped not just out of danger, but I was able to reduce my medicine. Instead of the seven or eight pills I’d have to pop, I was taking one small pill. And my weight had dropped 30 pounds. My doctor was shocked — he wanted to know how I did it. I told him, a whole foods diet.

I don’t share this personal success story as some sort of Eric Cartmanesque “BEEEFFCCAAAAAKKE” like braggadocio. I tell you this because I want you to understand that I believe in this lifestyle. It does work — I’m living proof. And I was excited about seeing Lee Fulkerson’s documentary Forks Over Knives because it supposedly was espousing the virtues of a plant-based, whole foods vegan diet. I wanted to bring word of this down to you, because if you are having health concerns or you just want to make a lifestyle change — even following this diet halfway can help you. But Forks Over Knives isn’t what I had hoped. It’s a really poorly made infomercial — a group of success stories framed together to sell the vegan diet module. And it’s not even informative. Every time they bring up a moderately interesting point, they immediately discard it. There’s the beginnings of six or seven much better documentaries buried in between the “Lose Diabeetus Now, Ask Me How” victory stories of various people who undertook the effort to give up animal-based products. But it doesn’t express any new information, it doesn’t really do a proper job defending the various concerns most people have with adopting a vegan diet, and it doesn’t get into the actual nuts and bolts of how you would eat healthier. It’s a glossy brochure for vegan diet cookbooks and health clinics — and while it’s a bit like The Secret when it comes to the concept of reversal of cancer and heart disease. While these claims are pretty accurate, it’s a bit insulting when they espouse it as, “Stupid prostate cancer victim! All you had to do was eat some zucchini!”

The frustrating part is taking apart something I fervently believe in, like a Christian circling typos and logic errors in the Bible. Yes, the USDA and the Congress are working with farming interests rather than the health of their citizens. Yes, eating healthier makes you healthy. Yes, doctors are encouraged by pharmaceutical companies to use pills rather than food to modify your health concerns. All of this is common knowledge, it’s not telling me anything new. And if you didn’t know it, you’re not going to get more beyond that simple statement. A major portion of the film is dedicated to the scientific research of two doctors: Caldwell Esselstyn, a Cleveland doctor who did a clinical study on 24 patients following a strict vegan diet over 5 years, and T. Colin Campbell, who was part of a revolutionary study on the effects of animal-based proteins and the various types of cancer in China. They show rafts of statistics, and they show old people who are still alive thanks to the vegan lifestyle. But they don’t go beyond those. They just say, “Look! It works! Don’t eat any meat or dairy! Or you will die!”

I’m being glib, but it bothers me that they show several people going to the vegan diet supporting clinics and adopting the lifestyle. In between shots of greasy, VCR scanned old clips of huge sizzling hunks of charred meat, they show these gorgeous magazine shots of the vegan dishes. True, when you’re doing it right and eating more vegetables, your dishes are colorful. But this shit — there’s a shot of all the positive stories sitting around a beautiful wooden table, a lush bushel of apple sitting in the center of the table, while each of them eat a vegetable salsa like slaw complete with an avocado or squash filled with a dollop of wild rice and mushroom risotto. C’mon, Propagandhi, vegan food more often than not is a brown and green mess. It tastes fucking terrific, but it looks like baby shit. That’s why you want tomatoes and peppers.

They don’t ever tell you what they are eating. They don’t give a sample menu. They don’t explain the benefits of vegetable nutrition and what’s good for you and where you can get nutrients. They don’t say, you should eat these superfoods for proteins and whatnot. More importantly, they don’t explain whether or not the clinics are covered by insurance. Because they aren’t. Preventative medicine is not covered by insurance companies. I wanted them to do the math. The one guy was spending $250 a month on his meds. So while you might incur a higher grocery bill trying to find fresh and tasty plant-based foods in some of the less fertile regions, the money will be there because you’re cutting costs elsewhere. But they don’t go there. They’re too busy saying, “If you don’t go vegan, you will go to hell and you will fucking die.”

By virtue of their own study, you don’t have to give up meat entirely. You just need to eat less of it. The study showed that by eating a diet of 5% protein, instead of the decadent western diet where we eat upwards of 20% or more, you can turn off certain cancers and heart disease risks. That means if you make a salad, and throw in a little bit of chicken, instead of eating a plank of chicken, you can still get the benefits. The average American restaurant portion is enough for four or five servings. But I only know that from other things I read. Not Forks Over Knives. I don’t know much of anything from the documentary that I didn’t know already. Except a few nice people are healthier than they’ve ever been and don’t have diabetes, cancer, or heart disease anymore. And that’s good. But as my everwise fiancee put it, “I judge documentaries by how much I more research I want to do afterwards.” And this didn’t open my eyes to anything new. Aside from the fascinating statistic that we spend exponentially more on health care in America than we do on the defense budget.

I feel like 2004 when my friends and I were chanting “Anyone But Bush!” and they gave us John Kerry, and we said, “Well. That’s anyone. But yikes.” I support most of the thinking behind Forks Over Knives but the end result is a muddled mess of stock footage and propaganda. Can adopting some form of whole foods, majority plant-based, diet save your life? Undoubtedly. And even knowing that, I still eat bacon cheeseburgers, and my health is starting to wain for it. I said to my new doctor, “I’m a little embarrassed at how damn easy it is to change my life, and how I won’t.” Fatty meats and sugars are drugs, as addictive as heroin and just as dangerous. Right now, there are students conducting that very study. But simply stating that doesn’t change anything. Colin Campbell believes that if everyone adopted a vegan lifestyle, “70-80% of health care issues would be eliminated.” It’s a nice thought. But so’s a bacon cheeseburger.










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Comments

YOU MEAN THE GOOD AND BOUNTIFUL MCDONALD'S EMPIRE DOESN'T HAVE MY BEST INTERESTS AT HEART?!

*drops teacup with a clatter to the floor. monocle to follow.*

That's all I've got as far as comments. I will never, ever give up meat. I LOVE meat. And dairy. Fuck yeah dairy I loooove you! But just switching to as much organic stuff as possible, and whole wheat instead of white, and limited amounts of sugar (usually in delightful brownish crystal form, yum) instead of high-fructose corn syrup, has made me feel lots better in small but important ways. I'm sure if I actually mustered up the motivation to cook proper meals, the results would be even better.

Every now and then I still need some taco bell though. Don't judge me. -_-

Posted by: Nat Kittyface at May 12, 2011 8:19 PM

If the cinematographer's name was Richard Chamberlin (no relation to the actor), I briefly knew the guy. I didn't know the name of the production he was working on, but he was talking about something similar to this. He really bought into the vegan lifestyle for about the duration of the project. Then it was back to cheeseburgers.

Personally, while I think the whole foods/vegan thing can work for some, it's not for everybody. I know for me it doesn't matter what I eat (assuming reasonable meals, not gorging on cheeseburgers every day). I find I really don't lose weight unless I exercise.

Posted by: Artlin at May 12, 2011 8:45 PM

All this crap is nothing more than anecdote at best, superstition and salvation at worst. Eat whatever you like, whatever makes you feel good.

http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2008/08/evidence-behind-dietary-and-lifestyle.html

Posted by: Anon at May 12, 2011 8:45 PM

oh, kittyface, i'm with you!

Posted by: splinter at May 12, 2011 8:51 PM

I think what turns me off to vegetarians in general is that so many of them I have met often are arrogant, militant pricks about it. Strangely enough I do in fact look at many of the more fanatical vegetarians as an almost religious cult mentality. It's as if they can't just be happy with their tofu and carrot stix...noooo...they have to try to convert everyone else too.

First they brag about it in the same condescending tone (what did they all get together and decided this is collectively how they introduce themselves?), next they quite often give this kind of sneer when they "discover" that you aren't and quite often they insist in going into some rehearsed diatribe about why they are so much better since giving up meat which usually involves the blathering of statistics that sound like they just as soon puled them out of a hat. If I come up to you and ask, you're informing me. If you come up to me and start telling me unsolicited- you're a Jehovah's Witness with broccoli.

Then there's the whole social part with it. My wife has a friend who's vegetarian (I refuse to use the term "Vegan" it sounds like a fabricated title like "Moonies" but I digress). We had to pay extra to purchase a vegetarian plate at our wedding, we have to make something special when she comes over (Hey, WTF this isn't a restaurant) Any time there's a crowd of us wanting to go out, we have to cater to her pallet. (Order a freakin' salad already!) and she insists on wrinkling her nose and acting all put off when someone else is eating something she doesn't. (It's called a "steak" sweetie, you used to eat it before you got all Born Again Vegan)

Now I realize that dickish vegetarians do not speak for the entire movement, nor do I feel that there's anything inherently wrong by choosing not to eat animal based food. That said I also don't feel it's any of their goddamn business what I choose to cram in my own piehole. I know full well sometimes some of this food isn't the healthiest in the world- especially if it's all that you consume. But I also feel there's nothing wrong with having meat, fish, eggs and milk in a proper diet. I will be the first to admit less sugars and fats are a healthier choice. But some people take that to the other extreme. If you don't like meat, don't eat it. And if my eating meat offends you, take one for the team and suffer in silence.

Posted by: bleujayone at May 12, 2011 9:13 PM

I am not a carbon-based life form - I am a cheese-based life form. I'm all for whole grains and I'm veg, but if brie = a shorter, less healthy life, I will take the cheese, please!

Posted by: Lauren at May 12, 2011 9:18 PM

bleujayone, you make me sad. I'm a vegetarian, and I have never once hassled a single person I know (or any people I don't know) about it or tried to "inform" them of anything.

Don't paint us all with the same brush, is what I'm saying.

Posted by: MM at May 12, 2011 9:33 PM

Bleujayone,

The thing I find so confusing about people who claim that vegetarians are militant and arrogant is how I've known hundreds of vegetarians and none of them has ever seemed arrogant or militant. In fact, just the opposite. They are often willing to politely eat anything they can at a group dinner, and never make a fuss about it, even if they get almost nothing to eat.

What I find much more commonly are meat-eaters who claim vegetarians are militant and arrogant because they feel threatened by someone else's diet. I have never seen a vegetarian shove their diet in someone's face, but I have seen many carnivores go out of their way to shove meat into a vegetarian's face immediately upon learning that the person is vegetarian. There's something threatening about the very existence of vegetarianism to some. Now, I realize that dickish meat-eaters do not speak for the entire movement, but it seems very common.

Posted by: John G. at May 12, 2011 9:33 PM

bleujayone, that is INSANE and I am sorry you're under the tyrannical reign of a psycho vegetarian. I've known people like that and I've run very quickly in the other direction. If it makes you feel any better, though, I've also met a fair contingent of vegetarians - and even vegans - who were very "don't worry about me, I've got weird dietary restrictions and I'll take care of it!" about food situations.

I think some (SOME, people, SOME, not ALL or even MOST) people are just vegetarians and vegans because it gives them an excuse to be control freak dicks about food. I feel like whenever you have any kind of weird food restriction, unless it's something completely out of your control (i.e. allergies, it's not like you just don't LIKE nuts), the onus should be on you to make sure there's something there that you can eat. It's NICE if someone thinks of you and makes sure you have plenty of food choices, but it's not everyone ELSE's job to rearrange the culinary world to suit your personal tastes.

Posted by: Nat Kittyface at May 12, 2011 9:34 PM

John G.-

Just go to Vermont sometime. It was one of the more bizarre things about the College Years. You'll swear there's a Vegan Chapter of Al-Qaeda the way some of them vehemently push their views on people. Which is especially odd since Vermont is also Dairy country.

And as I said, they don't speak for all vegetarians, but I've personally met many belligerent ones and they sure do give them all a bad name.

Posted by: bleujayone at May 12, 2011 9:51 PM

I am vegan. Happily so. I don't care what anybody else eats. I made the decision by myself, for myself, and fuck all to anyone who has issues with it.

EVERYONE I meet who discovers I am vegan always peppers me with questions. And no, I don't announce it. "Don't you miss meat?" "How can you possibly get enough protein?" "I could never do that!" Blah blah freaking blah. No, I don't miss meat. I get plenty of protein with quinoa and spinach etc, and I have never asked anyone else to adopt my eating lifestyle.

Eating is sort of like religion...believe in what you want, but don't push your ideas on me.

One small complaint though...just because a person is vegetarian or vegan does NOT mean they like mushrooms. Mushrooms are icky brown and gray blobs of nastiness and I avoid them like the plague!

Posted by: The Woo at May 12, 2011 9:55 PM

Actually, I've found the scenario John G. describes to be very common.

A typical experience for me would be: I'm going to a barbeque. Now, I know I'm going to a barbeque, so I know what to expect. If I have any thought that I might go hungry, I'll eat beforehand. So I go to the barbeque, and I get a nice plate with some potato salad and corn bread on it, and go sit in the corner eating my lovely food. (I'm a *huge* wallflower in real life, unlike on Pajiba.)

Eventually someone will come over to me and say, "Oh my god, is that all you're eating? What's wrong? Didn't you get any ribs? I'll get some for you." And I'll say, "Thanks, but I don't eat meat." And suddenly a shitstorm of belligerence gets unleashed on me, "You don't eat meat??!?? WHAT THE FUCK??! What's wrong with you? And why are you at a barbeque then? And who are you to tell me I can't eat meat? I'll eat meat if I want to!!!eleventy-one!"

Look, I didn't say YOU can't eat meat. I said *I* don't eat meat. And you're the one who asked. I've never "announced" to a gathering that I'm a vegetarian. It's almost always in response to someone asking me. And then they get really, really hostile, because somehow ME not eating meat upsets them.

I don't know from Vermont, but I live in Seattle, which is often considered to be the capital of militant liberalism, militant hipsterism, militant environmentalism, etc. (Well, we're tied with Portland, anyway.) But I have never observed anyone being militantly vegetarian. Only the opposite.

Posted by: MM at May 12, 2011 10:03 PM

I know I should eat less meat...but I'm so good at it! Plus, the cigarettes, booze and unprotected moosey sex will do me in first.

Posted by: admin at May 12, 2011 10:28 PM

I'd like to defend vegetarians, too. I think it's an awkward dynamic because it's almost impossible to sound respectful when you tell someone that you don't eat what they're eating because you think it's wrong. Inherent in even the most apologetic "I don't eat meat" is an unavoidable "because it (what you are doing right now) is disgusting and wrong."

I see it as any other moral decision. If you held a strong conviction against eating children (which I hope is common among all of us!) and lived in a world where eating children was entirely commonplace, you'd struggle to just accept that it was everyone else's decision to continue eating babies. I know it's an over-emotional analogy, but to someone who genuinely feels that eating animals is an injustice, it's difficult to avoid feeling like everyone else should stop too.

If we're talking about choosing it for dietary reasons, then there can be something smug about promoting your own diet to others. I just think it's impossible to hold the rest of the world to different moral standards to oneself just because it makes others uncomfortable.

Posted by: OpeningNow at May 12, 2011 10:34 PM

I don't eat meat because I really, really don't like meat. My experience is very similar to MM (possibly because I also live in Seattle), in that people seem to think that I'm judging them for eating meat just because I won't eat meat. It's a little strange because there are a lot of vegetarians/vegans in the PNW.

That said, I am kind of a food freak so I usually try to avoid situations where I have to explain my diet. I don't eat gluten--because I prefer to eat food that my body can digest--and I hate fruit--that is a texture thing--so I either have to take food with me or eat before I go out.

Posted by: pq at May 12, 2011 11:12 PM

Brian,
Kudos to you for stepping up and changing your lifestyle. Not an easy thing, by any means. I just wanted to say that not all patients make the changes you did - I get an insane amount of lip service from some of my patients. Their lifestyle changes consist of eating one less Krispe Kreme a week and smoking an extra 1/2 pack a day to cut down on their appetite. I don't give out Lipitor because of BigPharma, but because most people can't change on their own, and it's my ass on the line if they stroke out or have a massive heart attack...

Posted by: Gothdoctor at May 12, 2011 11:57 PM

I'm glad a whole foods diet worked so well to reverse your DOCs (Diseases of Civilization), and I am in complete agreement that cutting processed foods, processed sugars (many natural sugars, too, actually), and processed or hydrogenated oils can virtually erase problems like diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood sugar, high blood pressure, and other diet-related conditions like gout.

However, the idea that fatty meats are a) responsible for heart disease or b) addictive, also called the "lipid hypothesis", has been pretty soundly debunked going on a decade now. A quick google search of the existing medical literature on the subject of animal fat, and more specifically, saturated fat, will turn up literally 50+ recent studies that show no correlation whatsoever between DOCs and animal fats, nor between DOCs and a high-protein diet. This idea that fat and protein are responsible for the decline of Western health in the past fifty years is absolute bunk (seriously, just google it. The NYT is only one of many mainstream publications that have been bringing attention to this massive reversal in nutritional science and conventional wisdom; you should be able to come up with plenty of information on the subject). The real culprits are exactly what I named above: processed sugars, processed/hydrogenated oils, and the processed, prepared, and fast foods that contain so much of these things.

I have no opinion on how people want to eat; that's their choice. I wouldn't advocate either a vegetarian or meat-inclusive diet because I've done both and I know it's possible to be perfectly healthy on both--so I'm happy to sit back and let people make up their own minds. But shoddy science isn't something that should enter the conversation.

Again, I applaud your turn to whole foods, because, in my opinion as both a medical professional and a fitness professional, cutting processed foods from one's diet is the single most effective way to get healthy for life. But I would suggest you don't rely on tired old nutritional canards about animal fat and protein in order to prove your point. Your point is a good one, and there's plenty of real evidence out there to help prove it.

Posted by: heatseeker at May 13, 2011 12:35 AM

I would also like to add that I completely feel you, bleujayone. When I lived out in Portland for a three-year stint after college, I became vegan (as do many young things who move to Portland and get glamoured True Blood-style by the hipster awesomeness of it--don't get me wrong, I love that place). I was totally an asshole about it to meat-eating friends. I knew many, many vegetarians and vegans who were similarly assholish. I've run into militant vegans who are so rude and overbearing about it you wonder who raised them. The militant vegetarian thing is absolutely not a myth, and I wish they didn't exist, because otherwise vegetarianism is basically about peace, but now everyone just hates vegetarians.

Posted by: heatseeker at May 13, 2011 12:43 AM

Thank you heatseeker...I was waiting for that.

And seriously, veggie folks, them folks who are un-veggie aren't "carnivores"...they are "omnivores". If I had a dollar for this conversation...

Me: I'm actually a carnivore these days
Other: OMG me TOOOO! I'm the worlds biggest carnivore. *omnomnom on burger*
Me (thinking to myself): ...your burger has a bun. And there are fries on your plate. Do you even know what "carnivore" means?

*sigh*

/off-of-soapbox

Posted by: Foxeye at May 13, 2011 1:13 AM

Well, as something of an amateur survivalist, I have to mention that the only proven defense against land sharks is a well timed roundhouse kick to their furry gills.

Posted by: Blake Shrapnel at May 13, 2011 1:20 AM

Good on ya, Pisco, but you'll take my honey barbeque chicken wings away when you pry them from my cold, dead, sticky fingers.

Posted by: , at May 13, 2011 1:51 AM

Eventually someone will come over to me and say, "Oh my god, is that all you're eating? What's wrong? Didn't you get any ribs? I'll get some for you." And I'll say, "Thanks, but I don't eat meat." And suddenly a shitstorm of belligerence gets unleashed on me, "You don't eat meat??!?? WHAT THE FUCK??! What's wrong with you? And why are you at a barbeque then? And who are you to tell me I can't eat meat? I'll eat meat if I want to!!!eleventy-one!"

I've had similar experiences. I'm not vegan, not even technically vegetarian -- my diet is plant/veg based, but I do still eat fish and indulge in the odd gyro here and there -- and I'm not interested in lecturing anyone about their food choices. Live and let live, right?

Despite that, way too many people get bent out of shape when they find out that, no, I really don't find that plate of gristle and fat appealing. I never have a problem finding things to eat, even in steakhouses, but meat eaters seem to think that it's a HUGE chore for me to share a meal with them. Or there's the implication that I'm snobby because I won't eat at shitholes like McD's.

I've had some unpleasant exchanges with Toby Keith-wannabees who were convinced that I was less than a real man because I chose shrimp over a chunk of bloody beef. No joke.

I know there are militant vegetarians/vegans out there. I was lectured once by a vegan because she found out that I dared to eat fish. She lectured me while consuming gummi bears. Oh, the irony...

But I've had way more run ins with militant meat eaters. It's almost as if they were threatened by my food choices. I've never understood it...

Posted by: strife at May 13, 2011 1:57 AM

Just wanted to add, on the "attacked by threatened omnivores" front: I'm a chick, and while I've certainly had people go off on me for being vegetarian, I can only imagine how much worse it would be if I was a guy, with the whole "unmanly" angle. Props to all the guys who do it anyway.

I don't doubt that there are militant vegans out there. But if you're finding them everywhere you turn, then maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd, because most vegetarians just want to be left alone to eat their broccoli and tofu.

Posted by: MM at May 13, 2011 2:12 AM

It's almost as if they were threatened by my food choices. I've never understood it...

Heh, yeah, this is why, when coworkers as how I lost weight, I have started to answer "Yeeeeahhhhh, I don't discuss religion at work :)".

Posted by: Foxeye at May 13, 2011 2:23 AM

I didn't claw my to the top of the food chain to eat veggies!

If God hadn't wanted us to eat animals...he wouldn't have made them out of meat!

Posted by: Uncle JR at May 13, 2011 2:31 AM

Didn't read the article. I just scrolled down to say "well done" for the Futurama reference in the title. "Teach a lion to eat tofu", my ass.

Posted by: Kris at May 13, 2011 3:36 AM

One of my ex-coworkers is vegan, and he's a guy. He told me that he's been vegan for several years and that it wasn't hard for him to switch to it because his parents raised him as a vegetarian. Can you imagine? I think my exact response was, "Wow, are you parents hippies?" (which granted, is not the most polite thing to say at a work setting) and he said, "Yea, i guess. My mom worked at a chicken farm and she saw one too many chickens get killed."

So, about the whole male vegans being unmanly - I have to admit I did think that. Mostly because my co-worker is kind of a wan-looking, ferret-like quiet man. Looks perpetually nervous. And when he said he was raised a vegetarian, I immediately thought, "Well, it shows." (He has a wicked sense of humor though).

Is that bad? That's bad, isn't it. Sigh.

Anyway, as I read this, I just kept thinking, "I am really craving a burger now." But otherwise, good review of a documentary I'll probably never see! Why is the knife pictured like a scalpel?? Should it be like a steak knife?

Posted by: denesteak at May 13, 2011 5:04 AM

I've seen both sides of this. In college I had a friend who was vegan and although she was great, she insisted on pushing her food agenda anytime we got food together.

If we got lunch, she'd immediately start pointing at the food on my plate and telling me it was going to kill me, or give me cancer, or a brain tumour. She would ask me did I not care that I was being cruel to animals; She would keep trying to convert me. If I bought her a coffee I'd make sure it was a vegan soy drink, and likewise if I ever bought her a snack. Unfortunately, when she returned the favour she would only buy me soy hot chocolates or vegan chili rice cakes and then follow up with questions like "See? It's nice, isn't it? You can buy them [name of shop]". It drove me insane.

On the other hand, my boyfriend is vegetarian and has never tried to influence my eating habits. I've also seen him answer the same questions over and over again when people first realise he doesn't eat meat or fish. So I think both types exist, it's just a pity that people won't just focus on what's on their own plate.

Posted by: Harley at May 13, 2011 7:04 AM

Can't bring myself to read the comments on this thread, I get so incensed by dumb-shit "BACON!" & People Eating Tasty Animals jokes & by people who bring God into the discussion. If this is you, you don't know shit about where your food comes from & while you're lucky to live in a society where that's OK, you owe it to yourself & the planet to get informed. Agribusiness & the food animal industries are fucked. Animals suffer, I mean really suffer, so that you can have cheap food that tastes good. Those food animals are just as smart or cute as the animals that you keep as pets. #soapbox

Posted by: the new transported man at May 13, 2011 8:04 AM

"Fatty meats and sugars are drugs, as addictive as heroin and just as dangerous."

Actually a combination of salt, sugar and fat is more addictive than heroin. I don't remember the name of the study, but if you want to bore yourself to tears reading about various clinical trials regarding salt, sugar and fat addiction read The End of Overeating.

Posted by: Scully at May 13, 2011 8:11 AM

My sister-in-law is vegan. Has been for seven years. She was alway pretty quiet about it, never forcing it onto anyone. She never expects anyone to cater to her. She even brought her own food to our wedding, so that we didn't have to order her anything special. Some of the stuff she made was unbelievably tasty. Some, not so much, just like all the omnivores I know.
I have had to watch her endure all sorts of annoying teasing from everyone. ESPECIALLY her own parents. It's so weird the way people react when she tells them she is a vegan.
I was a vegetarian for a year. I can honestly say it was the best I have ever felt and I never expected anyone to cater to me. I always brought a portabella burger or something to BBQs. Frankly I quit b/c I am lazy and I really like the way turkey tastes. Apparently I don't have that strong of convictions.

Posted by: Nimue at May 13, 2011 8:59 AM

South Park taught me that if I gave up meat, I'd turn into a giant vagina.

Posted by: csb at May 13, 2011 9:45 AM

I've been a vegetarian since I was 14, nearly 20 years now. My experience is similar to MM. I've never shoved my way of eating down anyone's throat. However, when someone asks why I'm eating this or that, and I tell them that I'm a vegetarian, I get a ream of questions, most of them rude. I get people trying to spike my food with meat, 'cause, you know, it's like funny and shit to make the stupid granola vegetarian eat a cow. (To imagine how that feels, take the animal you love most in life, like Spot your family dog, and then imagine someone butchering him and spiking your food with him. Funny, right? Just fucking hilarious.)

I'm not vegetarian for health reasons, or even environmental reasons, although both are indeed good reasons to do so. I stopped eating animals and most dairy because I figured that my 15 minute enjoyment of a meal isn't worth the entirety of an animal's life. Plus, the idea of eating muscle tissue and tendons and adpiose and bones and other connective tissues and skin is just, to me, fucking disgusting.

I do have one point of contention to make with Brian's review. I get pissed when I hear people assert that, "...doctors are encouraged by pharmaceutical companies to use pills rather than food to modify your health concerns." That is just abso-fucking-lutely false. You know why doctors prescribe pills? Because they work and for most people they work a shit-ton better than diet and exercise alone. Because 99.9% of patients will not do what Brian did and change their diet or add exercise. They will continue to stuff their faces with the most unhealthy shit available while they sit on their asses, then threaten to sue their doctor when they don't lose weight or have their fourth MI. Good physicians always counsel their patients about healthy eating habits as alternatives or supplements to medications. Bad physicians don't do this, not because the pharmaceutical companies are paying them, not because of any grand conspiracy, but simply because they are jaded and/or don't give a shit. That's why they are bad physicians.

How do I know this? I was a physician (I left the field for teaching and writing, and now make my living writing college textbooks). Yes, I was visited often by pharm reps. What sort of payment did they offer? Well, pens and notepads and the occasional cloth bag or coffee cup. Hardly payment, unless you're a pen fetishist or a hoarder of useless shit. There are physicians who are employed by the pharm companies and yes, they are paid money to shill the drugs. But they are paid money because they are employees and I don't know of anyone who would accept pens and notepads in place of an actual salary.

In short (or long, sorry, I'm a writer, brevity isn't in my DNA), physicians aren't out there to push drugs instead of diet. If your physician does this, then he/she is likely jaded and/or an asshole, and I urge you to seek out a new health care provider. Oh, and don't spike a vegetarian's food, because it's just a completely, monstrously asshole thing to do.

Posted by: GeekChic at May 13, 2011 10:23 AM

Kudos, Prisco, for you lifestyle changes. I've been paleo/low carb for almost a year, and I'm down 30 lbs. Natural, whole foods FTW.

As for the subject of the documentary, well, let's just say that I find such things laughable. I've no problems with vegans who choose their lifestyle because of their views on animal cruelty. I respect the hell out of people who live their principles.

Docs like this kill me, though. They try to shoehorn the science to fit their value system, and it just doesn't fit. And judging from this review, they don't even do a halfway convincing job. Their conclusions would be laughable, but for the fact that they are actively trying to legislate their agenda.

Posted by: logar at May 13, 2011 10:36 AM

Jesus, what hippie blog did this get linked to. And yeah, the hysterical vegan / vegetarian? Not a myth. Not even a little bit.

Eating babies? Really?

Posted by: jon29 at May 13, 2011 11:07 AM

My dad is 86 and he's never eaten anything that wasn't smothered in bacon and fried in bacon grease!

So I'll take my chances...

Posted by: logan at May 13, 2011 11:08 AM

I can't believe I used the word "kudos." I hate myself.

Posted by: logar at May 13, 2011 11:19 AM

Couple of things...

Numero uno, just this:

"The real culprits are exactly what I named above: processed sugars, processed/hydrogenated oils, and the processed, prepared, and fast foods that contain so much of these things."

Heatseeker is right, as far as he goes. Processed foods are killing us. What most of you have failed to address is that almost anything, in excess, will kill you. If you want to cast blame for the Diseases of Civilization, it's our societal inclination to excess. If we want something, we want gargantuan amounts of it and we want it all the time. Everyone deals with it at some point, figuring out where that line between enough and too much lies. I guess my point is that blaming the food itself, for whatever reason, is a little ridiculous. We choose what goes in, and bear responsibility for those choices. Don't blame the cow.

Also, on the vegetarian thing, I've had plenty of vegetarians get pretty pushy and abusive with me, as if my very consumption of meat was an affront. By the same token, I've also seen friends of mine who are vegetarian suffer from the same ridicule that many of you talk about. I have one thing to say about all the pushy bullshit going around...fuck that noise, jack. To those on both sides who can't seem to keep their mouths shut, I'll say this: It's none of your fucking business what anyone eats. I don't care if you're trying to help them, shut the fuck up, go eat your hummus/porterhouse, and leave people without the benefit of your knowledge...because you're an asshole.

Lastly, and I'm tacking this on because it irritated me, I have to take exception with the statement above by GeekChic refuting that doctors and pharmaceutical companies aren't in bed together. OF COURSE they're in bed together in a lot of cases. Yes there are doctors out there that aren't, but the only one I've found in the past 10 years that wasn't wanted to sell me her macrobiotic diet service, so it's really kind of a wash. The fact of the matter is that doctors and drug companies are making FAR too much money to end their incestuous relationship now. They'll go down with the private healthcare ship rather than give up that payday, and it's because the vast majority of them do not, contrary to what we'd all like to believe, have our best interest at heart.

Posted by: Smokin at May 13, 2011 11:20 AM

You could be my evil brother! LOGAR!

Posted by: logan at May 13, 2011 11:20 AM

so that you can have cheap food that tastes good.
---
Yup.

You get a cow and I'll get a steak knife, honey!
You get a cow and I'll get a steak knife, baaaaabe!
You get a cow and I'll get a knife
And we're gonna take some bovine's life
And make some hamburgers today!*

*--I used to sing this to annoy ,daughter, who really likes cows. I like a good burger from time to time but I really don't go much for red meat anymore. I prefer chicken or salmon, if that makes me any less of a monster.

Posted by: , at May 13, 2011 11:34 AM

In order to fully represent both sides of the coin, I suppose I'll chime in that when I was vegan, I also got harassed about it enough by meat-eaters that I started declining to answer when people would ask me "but WHY?!" It just got too annoying to explain, and my reasons were too complicated to really make clear to a stranger in a five-minute conversation. Explaining that I never felt it was wrong to kill an animal for food, I just didn't agree with how mass farming is conducted and I didn't want to eat animal products full of hormones, antibiotics, and pesticides, usually got me into trouble with either meat-eaters who felt I was copping out or spiritual vegans who feel it's inherently wrong to kill an animal for food. It was a no-win situation. But on the whole, I found vegetarians/vegans to be more judgmental and pounce-y about the whole thing.

I think spiritually, it really does come down to whether or not you think it's wrong to kill and eat an animal, just like religion often comes down to whether you believe in God (or what God you believe in). So I really, really detest the prosthelytizing engaged in by many vegetarian/vegans, because in my mind it's the same as a Mormon knocking down my door or following me down the street. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe, and when I turned back to eating meat (well, a lot of it was because as I advanced further in my nutritional studies I realized there was far more benefit to eating it than not), I was terrified that I was going to be spurned and judged by my vegetarian family and friends. That says a lot, I think, about the level of judgment from the veg crowd on the whole. But I also wasn't going to keep following a principle that I didn't really believe in just to be trendy/accepted. (In no way am I implying that most vegetarians/vegans choose that path because it's trendy. Let's make that clear. I'm just saying that in Portland four years ago, being vegan to be trendy was like being bisexual to be trendy. Very common.)

"If this is you, you don't know shit about where your food comes from & while you're lucky to live in a society where that's OK, you owe it to yourself & the planet to get informed. Agribusiness & the food animal industries are fucked. Animals suffer, I mean really suffer, so that you can have cheap food that tastes good."

the new transported man, you're very right about the majority of commercially available meat being full of crap and nearly inedible, and that the industry is responsible for deplorable animal cruelty. However, please don't assume that all meat-eaters participate in Big Farming, or that all meat-eaters are mindless and ignorant of where their food comes from. I (and nearly all my paleo/primal cohorts) seek out local, organic, pasture-raised, grassfed animals and animal products instead of supermarket fare. I would absolutely argue that my dinner of local grassfed steak that came from a small farm 20 miles away is far more peaceful and environmentally friendly than the processed, GMO soy-field tofu shipped from who knows where crammed in many vegetarians' fridges. Being an omnivore does not automatically equal being harmful to the environment, or not mindful of food choices. There are shades of gray on both sides.

Posted by: heatseeker at May 13, 2011 11:34 AM

Allow me to add my voice to the chorus of quiet vegetarians. I actually go out of my way to avoid putting people out because of my dietary choices. In fact, stopping at Taco Bell or something before going somewhere I'm not sure of (like a barbecue) is as commonplace as fueling up my car. Serves the dual purpose of keeping me from possibly keeling over from hypoglycemia and saving the embarassment of having the well meaning host make me something special.

I attribute this attitude to two things, one being my rather quiet, social libertarian outlook on life, the other being the fact that my parents are in fact hippies and went veg in the early 80s before I was borned. The most fanatical of any ideology are the converts; I can almost guarantee that all the jerk vegetarians that y'all have come across have had some sort of (usually traumatic) epiphany or experience that's caused a major shift in diet. Since they had it, they assume that everyone can and should.

If I really get down to it, it DOES bother me. If pushed, I'll echo much of what's been said above, because most of my philosophies in life are dictated by my belief that life is sacred, or at least should be treated as such, and I extend that to animals too. When pushed, I will say that I don't give an airborne rat fuck how good animals taste, and that's a disingenuous rationalization that borders on psychotic. I bet you taste good too. That doesn't mean I'm going to eat you. Basically, I don't have to destroy life to maintain my own, so I don't.

This is only when I get angry. But I have to remind myself that I have a unique perspective, and most omnivores are just as much a product of their upbringing as I am of my own. My values are mine, and only mine, and if I want to maintain my integrity I have to accept that others' values are their own too and must be respected.

As far as the people have been terrorized by militant vegetarians, I say without reservation please gonad up and take it. One, we're not all like that. Two, imagine dealing with what's been detailed above (everything ranging from gentle curiosity to questioning my manhood and beyond) every time you sit down to a meal with someone new. So every once in a while you come across the 0.5% or whatever of the American population that is vegetarian and like to cram it in your face. That only leaves the other 99% percent to hassle me in some way. Your life is hard. End rant. Some people suck no matter what, and some of those people are vegetarians.

Lastly, denesteak (amusingly apropos name) I'm a reasonably built 6'4" 220 lb guy. I honestly think the wan, pale vegetarian stereotype exists because the poor creatures are just doing it wrong; they didn't have the benefit of parents to figure shit out for them.

Posted by: Ian at May 13, 2011 11:40 AM

Bluejayone: "I think what turns me off to vegetarians in general is that so many of them I have met often are arrogant, militant pricks about it."

That's exactly why I try not to tell people I'm vegetarian/almost vegan. I don't want anyone to think I'm one of THOSE. I don't care what anyone else eats. My husband is not vegetarian. He eats what I cook or he fixes it himself. Just don't try to feed me meat on the sly and think it's funny. That's like adding wheat to your gluten-free bread because you don't think the celiac person will notice.

It took my mom about 8 years but she's finally come around that my lifestyle is OK. I didn't do it by bashing her in the face with it. It took years of feeding her delicious dishes, and her checking her blood sugar afterwards and discovering that her numbers were the best they'd ever been. Plus, I look and feel healthy.

Posted by: BWeaves at May 13, 2011 11:45 AM

Heatseeker, Scully, and Smokin are right. Processed crap food of convenience is the major culprit of today's world. The poor, woefully inadequate diet combined with our increasingly sedentary lifestyle is what will kill us. It's often the underlying cause of many people's health issues. Know your foods, read effin' labels, and GET INFORMED about what you eat. I'll admit, I don't always eat healthy and clean, but I do make an attempt to do so every day. When I eat crap food, I do feel lethargic and lazy. I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, but I don't begrudge those that are, unless they tell me why my diet is so bad. For health reasons, I can't eat a full vegetarian diet, but I do have individual meals that are vegetarian.

I've seen militant meat eaters and militant vegans. Much like what someone does in their own home is not anyone else's business, neither is what a person eats. It's not that one side is right and one is wrong, it's that diet is a very personal decision and it's no one's place to judge. Flat out, quit being a judgy asshat if someone doesn't eat meat or if someone eats animal products. Don't force your views on others. Many people have food issues and you may not be privy to the information.

Prisco, congrats on changing your lifestyle and making yourself much healthier in the process! It's a hard thing to do and congrats to you.

Posted by: Melody at May 13, 2011 11:45 AM

@Smokin: Well, thanks for telling me that my colleagues and myself are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. I guess the fact that we never receive payments or kickbacks from these companies, or the fact that such payments and kickbacks are illegal, isn't relevant to your hypothesis. Who needs facts, anyway? Facts interfere with perfectly good conspiracy theories, after all. Maybe those pharm company pens are worth more than I thought? Is there some underground black market where I can make a fortune selling such pens and notepads?

The idea that physicians want to keep their patients sick is, to put it mildly, fucking ridiculous. The idea that we won't make money unless we keep our patients sick is also fucking ridiculous. Disease happens, irrespective of lifestyle. Sickness happens, irrespective of how many dietary supplements you cram down your throat. As long as people exist, there will be disease, there will a need for medical care, there will be a need for physicians. We are in no danger of being "put out of business" by healthy people. We aren't going to make less money because someone cuts out processed food from their diet.

Those ideas are ludicrous, and you know who promotes them? The companies that are trying to sell you their goddamn dietary supplements and fad products that are generally of no benefit to you or are actually harmful. The irony is rich. People listen to these snake oil salesmen who squawk about the big pharma conspiracy that is trying to steal your money, and then hold out their hands as you eagerly pay for their faux remedies.

When you break it down, the conspiracy theories don't even make sense. Drugs and lifestyle modifications are prescribed by physicians so people will not be sick. I have severe asthma. I am not prescribed medications for my asthma so I stay asthmatic. I am prescribed medications so I can breathe and don't fucking end up in the hospital or dead. My physician does not receive kickbacks for prescribing me albuterol. She simply keeps me alive and breathing. Wow, how evil.

I'm certain someone else will reply and say that I'm wrong, I don't know what I'm talking about, and quote a bunch of false or out-of-context statistics to prove their case. Yes, the actual physician who treated patients and dealt with pharmaceutical companies has no clue. I'm just a part of the conspiracy, right? Sure, and how does that aluminum foil hat feel? Is it perhaps a bit tight? You might want to see your physician about that.

Shit, I wrote a dissertation again. It's the writer's curse. Sorry. I guess this hit a nerve.

Posted by: GeekChic at May 13, 2011 12:13 PM

@Ian, I love what you wrote, especially about the "it tastes good" argument.

Posted by: GeekChic at May 13, 2011 12:17 PM

@GeekChic - Obviously we're all hitting nerves around here today. I'm not gonna drag this out. We disagree on the general idea that these medical professionals exist solely to help us be physically healthier. All I'm saying is that not everyone's motives are as altruistic as you seem to believe.

Posted by: Smokin at May 13, 2011 12:28 PM

GeekChic, I understand what you're saying. And I do think you're right. I really don't think there's a massive conspiracy to keep people sick, nor a massive money continuum between Big Pharma and most physicians.

I do, however, get annoyed when people like my 55-year-old mother get prescribed Crestor for no other reason than that her LDL was a little high--without any breakdown of small or large SDL and no mention of her much higher HDL, which actually placed her cholesterol at a not-bad balance (and again, without a breakdown of LDLs the number is almost meaningless). My mother is someone who would absolutely be willing, able, and motivated to make a diet switch to help out her cholesterol numbers, but no mention of this or guidance on the subject was ever made by her doctor. He just quickly prescribed Crestor and shoved her out the door. I, outraged (post-menopausal women have no business being on cholesterol meds of any kind), asked her not to take the Crestor, put her on Whole30 for a single month, and boom, now her numbers are great. It was so easy, fast, effective, and logical that I felt it was bordering on a scam that her doctor preferred to have her pay for expensive medication (that has harmful side effects, to boot).

So I agree with you that the larger conspiracy theories are ridiculous, but it's not like many doctors don't give the profession kind of a bad rap for often mindless, kneejerk prescribing rather than real health counseling that would render medication unnecessary for willing and motivated patients. I would never try to contend that all or even most doctors are like that, but I'm just saying it's not hard to see how these conspiracy theories take root and spread.

Then again, I know most patients aren't willing and motivated, and that most doctors just don't have the time for that kind of counseling, and it's a darned shame and not their fault. My job (paramedic) has me hanging out at the hospital all through the day/night and I see how incredibly busy the docs are.

Posted by: heatseeker at May 13, 2011 12:34 PM

GeekChic thank you, I appreciate the compliment.
In regard to the other issue, it seems like you have an excellent approach to medicine and truly cared about your patients, which is awesome. But I agree with Henry in that not all are the same; there are types of doctors just like there types of lawyers and types of bricklayers. Choosing a career in medicine does not automatically make one a Special Altruism Unicorn. Just a thought. Seriously no attack intended.

Posted by: Ian at May 13, 2011 12:43 PM

Thank you, heatseeker.

Posted by: Smokin at May 13, 2011 12:43 PM

So, no one's going to point out that vegetarians are the gassiest damn people on the planet?

Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2011 12:47 PM

Hahaha, Craig I always TMI people with "When I was vegan, I was gassier than the Hindenbug; now that I'm paleo, I can't remember the last fart I had." Totally unscientific and anecdotal and therefore worthless as for drawing any kind of conclusion, but it was definitely my experience. Other people's MMV (and probably will).

Posted by: heatseeker at May 13, 2011 12:59 PM

Heatseeker, well said. I've seen bad doctors who throw pills at the problem rather than holding the patient accountable for their role in their health. I've seen good doctors who will make a patient suck it up and get off their ass and make a change. My mom has numerous health issues and many of the doctors she's seen throw meds at the issue rather than telling her about changes she could make to lower her blood pressure, cholesterol, or what have you. Often, the meds prescribed make things worse or have no effect whatsoever. I know that few doctors have the luxury of excess time to talk with each patient, but not every doctor is a caring, people saving machine. There are good doctors and there are bad doctors, just like any other profession. GeekChic, it appears you were one of the good ones and for that, I'm sure your patients miss you greatly.

Posted by: Melody at May 13, 2011 1:00 PM

GeekChic, your essays show your faith in chemicals far outweigh your faith in humanity. This is troubling to me, because I see it as the true root of the problems in our health system in this country.
You go on writing your textbooks and defending your hard-on pills and your restless leg syndrome pills, and have a fruitful life, sweetie. I will choose to pursue health in my own way.

Posted by: dagnabbit at May 13, 2011 1:24 PM

Because dismissing and then condescending to the opposing side instead of actually rebutting a single one of their points is always the best way to start a meaningful dialogue or carry on a successful discussion or debate, dagnabbit. Way to represent.

Posted by: Nat Kittyface at May 13, 2011 2:30 PM

So, about the whole male vegans being unmanly - I have to admit I did think that. Mostly because my co-worker is kind of a wan-looking, ferret-like quiet man. Looks perpetually nervous. And when he said he was raised a vegetarian, I immediately thought, "Well, it shows." (He has a wicked sense of humor though).

Is that bad? That's bad, isn't it. Sigh.

Well...I guess it's like me saying that these two represent all meat-eaters:

http://nyc.3432.voxcdn.com/files/2011/03/alg_heart-attack-grill-480x270.jpg

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Nightline/abc_ntl_grill_110309_wg.jpg

If they represent what it is to be "manly", I'll pass. ;)

Posted by: strife at May 13, 2011 3:57 PM

Associating food choice with masculinity/femininity is unarguably lame.

That said, when I went primal/VLC (very-low-carb), I did find myself becoming a more aggressive person in many aspects of my life. A little more of a risk-taker. Some would call that "more masculine", I suppose, if they were bound up with whether women are allowed to be all GRRRRR or not.

Could be a coincidence, but I can't help but wonder if our bodies react to mostly-meat diets by making us act in ways that make for better hunters, and react to meatless diets by reducing aggressive tendencies and making us more socially savvy (because agrarian societies can't productively channel the Grrrrr-Arrrrgh as well as hunter societies).

Purely pseudo-scientific thinking, I know, but...it's not entirely impossible, if things like testosterone/estrogen levels are influenced by diet. Which I suspect they are.

Posted by: Foxeye at May 13, 2011 4:21 PM

OK, where's a good starting point to find out about whole foods? Obviously, there's a lot of information on the Internet; there's also a lot of misinformation.
My "grocery" shopping is either at a gas station convenience store for chocolate milk, diet Coke, and sweets, or two frozen entrees at Walmart.
The only cooking I do is putting things in the microwave for a few minutes.
My point being that I'd basically be starting from ground zero.

Posted by: Pat C. at May 13, 2011 5:25 PM

Pat C.: it's really the simplest thing in the world. If it has a nutritional label on it, don't eat it. So: fruits and vegetables don't have nutritional labels, meat and eggs don't have nutritional labels, etc. If it has an ingredients list longer than five items it's almost certainly processed.

Reading the entirety of what Gary Taubes and Michael Pollan have published is a good jumping-off point.

Take a look at Whole30, which is, to simplify it mightily, a 30-day challenge to eat nothing processed. Just google it.

I really like the blog and nutrition/fitness science compendium www.marksdailyapple.com. He's a meat eater, but a lot of vegetarians have also found a happy home there due to Mark's clear sourcing and explanation of nutritional science, as well as his scientific and professional fitness background to back it all up. I'd say as far as web resources go, that's the most trusted place I can think of.

Posted by: heatseeker at May 13, 2011 5:32 PM

Thanks very much. The 30 day challenge isn't going to happen (although I will read it and hopefully learn stuff).
My "ambitious" goal for now is to switch from 99% unhealthy foods to, say, 50% unhealthy foods. Should get some benefit from that, right?

Posted by: Pat C. at May 13, 2011 5:53 PM

Pat C: the general idea is to go into a grocery store and shop from the perimeter area only. Since pretty much all grocery stores are laid out the same, you will find that when you stay outside of the aisles, you'll only buy items which are not packaged. I'll second the recommendation of Pollan. His In Defense of Food is wonderful. I love Eating Animals by Foer and Animal, Vegetable, Miracle by Kingsolver is also good (she's a bit arrogant and it seeps into the book). And movies of course: Food Inc. is awesome. King Corn and The Future of Food are both good. And for laughs I have to include Super Size Me.

Posted by: Scully at May 13, 2011 6:21 PM

The real victim here is the Barney Miller episodes I'm not watching right now, so I'm going to go tend that garden.

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at May 13, 2011 10:18 PM

GeekChic,

Others have already written to you in response to your opinion about big pharma. It doesn't matter that I have a relative who is part of a large medical organization that gets free trips all over the world with everything comped from drug companies. It's obvious your experience is different. I just want to know if you think that there's no problem with big pharma's involvement with the medical profession, or if you just think it's not as big as people think. If you think there's no problem at all, then I'm afraid that's crazy. But there are pills for that. :)


Also, heatseeker, with regard to your GMO soy-field tofu shipped from who knows where comment, don't forget that some of us also know where to get good tofu, and know exactly where that tofu comes from, just like your local, humane beef.

Posted by: John G. at May 14, 2011 2:17 AM

John G, you'll notice I didn't say it was in all fridges, I said it was in many fridges--which you can't dispute is true, simply judging by the tofu options at basically every grocery store, even Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. I used to eat the stuff; I know exactly what's out there.

I purposely wrote in a non-absolute so as not to make the mistake of the statement I was originally responding to. And I'm the one who brought up the shades of gray on both sides of the argument. Let's not pick nits where none exist.

Posted by: heatseeker at May 15, 2011 11:00 AM

Exactly why will most people do planking ??

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I have to say I also have seen more threatened meat-eaters making fun of, and making inappropriate and insensitive comments to, people like my young daughter who is veg more than the other way around. It has gotten to where she does not wish to go to her father's family's house because they make such an issue of it, and her grandmother refuses to make anything veg for her, even putting bacon in the vegetable dishes. That's just not nice. I am vegan, but I try to keep it to myself, although through serving good food to my family all my kids, their mates, my mother are all vegetarian. Not done by preaching but done by showing how varied and lovely a plant-based diet can be.

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