Dax Shepard Defends Anti-Trans Rhetoric in Conversation With Jonathan Van Ness

By Emma Chance | Celebrity | September 26, 2023 |

By Emma Chance | Celebrity | September 26, 2023 |

When I saw the news that Dax Shepard and Jonathan Van Ness had an interaction on Shepard’s podcast that ended in tears, I wasn’t surprised. I don’t listen to Armchair Expert because I find the interviews to be mostly inane and I don’t have the patience for Shepard’s seemingly uncontrollable urge to play devil’s advocate, but I admire JVN for their advocacy for trans rights and abortion rights, so I was curious.

It didn’t bode well when Shepard and his cohost Monica Padman misgendered Van Ness in the introduction to the episode, in which they also issued a clunky trigger warning about their conversation, calling the topic of trans rights a “sensitive issue.” After the cursory getting-to-know-you small talk, Shepard mentioned that he’d seen a video of President Biden addressing survivors of the Maui wildfires in which he allegedly compared the disaster to a kitchen fire at his own home. This led Shepard to assert that he wasn’t willing to “lie” by calling Biden “the best option” for the country. He agreed with Padman that Biden was the “lesser of bad options.”

Van Ness responded, “Having lived in Texas for the last three years, it becomes very different. And so I do have a thing with people who live in liberal states—it’s a lot easier for you to say that in a state where your healthcare isn’t getting came for, your kids can be themselves, Department of Child and Family Services isn’t investigating you if you have a fucking nonbinary kid…”

Shepard being Shepard, he couldn’t just let that go. It seems Van Ness opened a can of worms that Shepard was in the mood for that day when he brought up non-binary children. He said he could sympathize with people’s “fears” and didn’t think it was a productive “way forward” for people who are anti-trans to be vilified simply for asking questions. The conversation ended up focusing on trans rights in sports because for some reason conversations about trans rights always end up being about sports because this is America.

“I feel like I’m talking to my dad,” Van Ness responded before basically giving a dissertation on why the whole sports argument is a waste of time and full of “misinformation and disinformation.”

“Do I wish that the trans woman athlete had access and could play and follow her dreams? I do,” Shepard said. “Will I elevate her rights over women? We’re pretending that women aren’t the ultimate marginalized class throughout history.”

Van Ness countered that it’s not just as simple as people “questioning” the “fairness” of trans people playing sports but that there’s been a “public-targeted onslaught toward queer people.”

“There are many people targeting queer people—don’t want them to have rights. I agree with you,” Shepard said.

“So then for me to sit here and watch Dax Shepard parrot a lot of the same things?” Van Ness implored. He said that queer people are the current “boogeyman” of society and the sports debate is a symptom of that.

“I definitely think a lot of people who are anti-trans are using this as a Trojan Horse,” Shephard conceded.

“I’m a non-binary fucking trans person, you know, when I talk to my dad or people who say similar things, it’s hard to have to be cool through that,” Van Ness admitted. “I’m not calling you a transphobe. You can not be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse trans misogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies and beliefs.”

“Honestly, I just…I wanted to come, like, chat about my podcast,” they said, sounding resigned.

“I did not intend at all to get into a debate with you about this. I didn’t want that at all. I adore you, I think you’re hysterical and talented, and I love that you’re an activist,” Shepard said.

“I could just, like, cry because I’m like, so tired of having, to like, fight for little kids because they just want to be included. I wish people were as passionate about little kids being able to, like, be included or, like, grow up as they were about fictitious women’s fairness in sports. I have to tell you I am very tired,” Van Ness said through tears.

Shepard apologized, saying, “I’m sure you’re disappointed in me.” Van Ness later admitted that they still struggle with their own gender identity, and the hosts apologized more, saying it must be so exhausting having to have these conversations all the time.

Frankly, apologizing when someone gets upset just doesn’t cut it. Shepard was adamant about his beliefs throughout the conversation and didn’t let up until tears were shed. That is not a productive strategy and will not lead to any greater understanding. Playing devil’s advocate is one thing, but forcing someone to defend why they and others like them deserve to simply exist without question is taking it too far.

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Dax Shepard (@daxshepard)