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10 Things We Learned From This Week's Episode Of "Game Of Thrones": Spoiler Whore and Book Reader Edition

By Joanna Robinson | TV Reviews | April 10, 2013 | Comments ()


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Author's Note: Hey folks! We're trying out something new this week. In addition to TK's eloquent and insightful Monday recaps, we're going to see if y'all would be interested in a book spoiler-heavy post on Wednesday. This serves mainly as a outlet for all your pent-up frustrations at having to tip toe around your book knowledge lest you spoil a "Game Of Thrones" newbie. So, in case it isn't clear, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED BY BOOK KNOWLEDGE OR SOME INSIDER SHOW INFO, GET OUT OF HERE. SERIOUSLY, WHAT IN THE SEVEN HELLS ARE YOU DOING HERE? LEAVE!

Are they gone? Phew. I've been dying to do this: Red Wedding, Red Wedding, Red Wedding!! Now that that's out of my system, let's take a look at this week's episode. Anything goes in the comments, folks. We're hoping this will help curb some of your urges to spoil in the regular recap. Have at it!--JR

1. It Really Doesn't Matter That They Took So Long To Show Us Jojen & Meera Reed, Does It? : I think many of us were bummed not to see these two last season. They gave some of Jojen's Green Dream skills to Bran and held off on introducing the two. Why? Well I'm guessing they figured we were already up to our neck in new characters. Regardless, they had a killer intro in this episode and both Thomas Sangster and Ellie Kendrick fit the bill. Great look, solid performances. I couldn't be happier.
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2. They're Really F*cking Up The Shae Plotline, Aren't They? This scene between Shae and Tyrion was basically unbearable. Sure, Shae's motivations for risking life and limb to be in his chambers are more noble here than they are in the book. (In the book, remember, she's trying to wheedle her way into Joffrey's wedding.) But the supremely silly jealous fit she has over Sansa and Ros? I don't know if it's bad writing or a terrible performance but it was nearly unwatchable. I get it, they're setting up Shae's jealousy to go off like a powder keg when Tyrion and Sansa tie the knot, but they're doing it all wrong. At this rate, we won't care at all what happens to her.
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3. They're Really Nailing The Sansa Plotline, Aren't They?: Once again, performance comes into play when we're talking about the success or the failure of this scene. Sophie Turner just killed it. Seeing the young Stark girl crack under the kindness (however manipulative) of the Tyrells was gut-wrenching. Did we miss someone singing "The Bear and The Maiden Fair" in the background? No, no we did not.
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4. Sometimes The Best Scenes Are The Ones That Weren't From The Book At All: Yeah that might be hard for a George RR Martin devotee to admit, but a stumbling block for the writers in this season is that there are no chapters from Margaery, Cersei or Joffrey's perspective in "A Storm Of Swords." So they have to make some sh*t up here. And they did a killer job, no? What a scary, sh*tty little psychopath, Joffrey is. And what a clever, seductive little charmer Margaery is. Well done.
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5. This Hurt You More Than It Hurt The Non-Book Readers: For those of us who know who gets out alive and who doesn't, certain goodbyes are absolutely heart-rending. When the Starks part ways in Season 1, we know just how long it will be until they all meet again. (Never, never is how long it will be.) This scene was poignant as hell.
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6. They're Not Going To Ignore Alfie Allen For An Entire Season: In case you had any doubt, this answered the question of whether or not we'd be seeing Theon Greyjoy at all this year. Of course it makes sense for them to play a little bit with the timeline. They're not revealing yet where they are but this image...
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...and this provide an excellent clue.
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7. They're Trying Their Damnedest To Cover Some Of The Plot Holes They Created Last Year: Why didn't Arya kill Tywin? Uhhhhhh, cause he wasn't supposed to be there at all but they put him there because it made for better television? No they didn't come out and say that, but close enough.
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8. They're Doing A Proper Job Foreshadowing The Mutiny At Craster's Keep: I think a lot of folks who haven't read the books are wondering what the hell this scene with Samwell is doing in the show. Well it's showing the degree of discontent that's brewing in the ranks over some of Mormont's decisions. And it also serves to remind us how much we love the tough old bastard.
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9. Sometimes TV Action Is Even Better Than Book Action: Though the fight between Jaime and Brienne is beautifully laid out in the book, there's nothing like seeing steel hitting steel. I thought this was beautifully executed showing Jaime's initial arrogance and Brienne's wariness devolving into defeat and grim triumph. The whole thing is a bit sexier in the book. Jaime remarks, when they're caught, that it looks like they were caught f*cking rather than fighting. But this'll do.
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10. The Whole Talisa Thing Might Just Blow Your Mind: They are plenty of ways in which they keep hammering home the fact that Robb and Talisa (aka Jeyne Westerling) are a bad, doomed match. No sir, they're not being subtle about it at all.
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But dig, if you will, the insane conspiracy theory video a listener sent to me. If this is how they intend to play it, my hats are off to Weiss and Benioff.

New Character Rundown:

The Queen Of Thornes: Oh I think we all agree Dame Diana Rigg was indescribably great casting. She Dowager Countess'd the hell out of her scene.
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Thoros Of Myr (And Anguy The Archer): Sure Thoros wasn't supposed to show up quite so early but you didn't mind, did you? Paul Kaye's insouciant take on the Red Priest was pure delight. Also Anguy's bit with the arrow? Fantastic.
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Orell: Mackenzie Crook (of the British "The Office" fame) shows up as Orell the warg/skinwalker. Was he supposed to die last year? He waaas! Crook will be playing a hybrid of Orell and Varamyr.
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Jojen & Meera Reed: I already talked about these two. I love them already.
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Locke: Who's that? Noah Taylor (Almost Famous, Submarine) is on the scene as the leader of the Bolton bannermen. You know what that means, ladies and gents? It means he's playing the part of Vargo Hoat. We'll have to make do without The Goat.
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The Bastard Bolton: We saw him veeeeeer-ry briefly but that was Iwan Rheon as Roose Bolton's son Ramsay. No good can come of this for Theon. No good at all.
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Are you following Pajiba on Facebook or Twitter? Every time you do, Bill Murray crashes a wedding.


Comments Are Welcome, Bigots and Trolls Are Not


  • BlackRabbit

    I've read the books but not had the chance to see the new episodes yet. Small question: does Meera Reed use a trident on the show, as ( I think) she does in the books? And that video makes a lot of sense. Wonder if the showrunners or GRRM have seen it? If not, it would be so easy to add.

  • Sherry

    This is a self-shame post: Upon re-watching it last night, my husband (non-book reader) recognized who was torturing Theon based on the cross and remembering their sigil whereas I (avid book reader) would not have realized until reading this review. [flogs self]

  • Morgan_LaFai

    Oh, and thanks awfully for the spoilerific post. It is truly the bees knees. I would be dashed grateful if you could keep them coming.

  • Morgan_LaFai

    The Red Wedding was painful, but I didn't find it near so painful as many here seem to have. Maybe it is because I was not surprised. Having seen the power of the Red Priestess before, when she used to blood of kings taken from leeches to kill the rivals I knew shit was gonna go sideways. And when Rob was asked to leave his wolf behind I said my goodbyes.

    More importantly, I think by that point in the reading I was just numb. The lost of Winterfell (the actual castle) hurt me more than the Red Wedding. How could such an ancient place, with all that history in its walls, the ancestral home of the Starks, and finally with it's grove to the old gods... How could that have been destroyed. And once that was gone I gave up on the Starks. Some of them might do okay for themselves, but not as Starks.

    Fair thee well family that I loved. Fair thee well culture of honor. You were no match for the south. Your children that survive will be not like you. Your time and traditions are at an end.

  • competitivenonfiction

    Based on GRRM's heavy-handed foreshadowing, I knew that something was going to happen, but didn't expect the red wedding exactly. The worst part was watching the Starks' shock as they were cut down despite the social niceties that they believe should have protected them. No, Starks, good manners won't save you.

  • Strand

    I'm not a big fan of the whole misdirection in Theon's plotline, it's practically telegraphed what will happen to Theon this season. The 'gaoler' will free Theon to find his sister, who'll spend an episode running through the woods before being set upon by a pack of hounds and a hunter who turns out to be... the gaoler! Ramsay Snow, the bastard of Bolton, who proceeds to rape and flay him. Okay, maybe just the flaying part.

    I had a little giggle at the 'lemon cakes.' I'm unsure if they just flicked through the novels to find a generic dish Sansa likes, or it's a wink and nod to the fans and GRRM's much-loved "lemon cakes, boiled leather and rape."

  • RAMSAY!

    Phew, had to get that out of my system early. One of the things I've been looking forward to most this season is the reaction of non-booksters to The Bastard of Bolton and how he makes Joffrey look like a goddamn Care Bear.

    On the changes to Shae in the show, does anyone else think, from the way they've changed the character to seemingly genuinely care for Tyrion and have a sensible head on her shoulders instead of being a naive and superficial little tramp, that Tywin will kill her instead of sleeping with her?

    This sensible and devoted Shae doesn't seem to be the type to hop into the sack on a moment's notice, regardless of her jealousy over Sansa.

    Finally, THANK YOU JOANNA! This is a fantastic idea.

  • Bless this post and the mercy to discuss this show freely here.

  • foolsage

    Just watched the episode again. It's not fair use to post prolonged passages, so here's my highlight:

    Margaery: I imagine it must be so exciting to squeeze your finger here, and watch something die over there.
    Joffrey (visibly excited): Could you do it? Could you kill... something?
    Margaery: I don't know, Your Grace. Do you think I could?
    Joffrey (softly): Yes.
    Margaery: Would you like to watch me?
    Joffrey (pauses, holds her closer): Yes.

    This happens, of course, after the scene where Sansa tells Margaery and Lady Olenna that Joffrey is a monster.

  • MissAmynae

    I'm a little late to this particular party post, but THANK YOU!!!!!

  • Casting the new characters looks very good. Meera is a little underplayed so far. Craster's Keep is going to be hard, cuz Lord Mormont has been awesome and I'm not enjoying Sam (didn't in the books). We've tolerated the bad acting for Shae thus far, I say let's just tolerate it a bit more and be patient at how they get to the denouement. Brienne and Jamie continue to be outstanding, as are the little Starks scattered about. Margaery and Cersei is spectacular, and Joffrey trying to be a man is wonderful, I'm so going to enjoy the party. All in all, they've set the table really well for the season so far.

    And I'm very upset about the upcoming ceremony, and the conspiracy video is causing me upset feelings all over again.

  • competitivenonfiction

    Thank you for this post! I've been dying to talk about it.

    Damn, Margaery plays a good game in the show. I think you could infer that she did in the books, but I just found her kind of boring. In the show, she's a real player. My crush on Natalie Dormer is growing every day - have you heard the BBC Neverwhere show? She was the perfect Door.

    I cannot wait to see Joffery die. Preferably this season. It's kind of anti-climactic in that it's a poisoning, but it's no better than the death he deserves. I've never wanted a character to die a horrible death as much as I did reading the book.

    I can't recall Arya's timeline and at what point does she go to Bravos? Are we likely to see that this season

    That's all I've got to say so far, except to say, when the Bastard of Bolton showed up, I curled my knees up and hugged myself for a little while. Oh the shivers.

  • foolsage

    Margaery is a far stronger and more interesting character in the TV show than in the books. No question. I love the soft power moves with the poor children and the manipulation of Joffrey's sadistic impulses; both are new. Well, the books had Margaery's men providing food to the poor in her name prior to her arrival, but that's not the same.

  • competitivenonfiction

    It was last season when she looks Littlefinger in the eye and says "I don't want to be a queen, I want to the The Queen" that made me take notice. They're not wasting Dormer's talents that's for sure. It'll certainly make Cersei's downfall much more interesting.

  • BendinIntheWind

    Arya definitely won't be in Braavos until at least season 4, probably end of 4/beginning of 5. She arrives at The Twins right in the middle of the post-Red Wedding massacre, and the Hound drags her off. Since we know the wedding is episode 9 of this year and she has a bit of adventuring to do with the Hound still after that, I could see season 4 ending with her either hopping on a boat, or reaching the shore of Braavos.

  • John G.

    Thank you thank you thank you Joanna for giving us a book reader post. I agree with everything you say in this post. Keep up the good work.

  • KingEntropy

    I adored Thoros of Myr, Paul Kaye's portrayal was fantastic. Now I'm missing not seeing him beat the Hound at the tourney with his wildfire sword.

    My best friend and I are also quite partial to the Tyrion and Shae relationship.

    Perhaps it's because we used to date, but she and I have a strange affinity for their odd love. She hasn't read the books, and I'm worried she'll be heartbroken if things play out the same.

  • mswas

    I cannot WAIT for Lady Stoneheart to be revealed. Michelle Fairly will be hella spooky with that pale skin and high cheekbones. Plus she'll act the shit out of it.

  • bibliophile

    Truly. And I hope we can at least get a true representation of her rent face. A mother in grief. Moments before.

  • foolsage

    Zombie Cat ftw.

  • Jenn TheYellowDart

    THANK YOU, JOANNA. You allow spoiler ppl like me to just blurt shit out without reprecussion. And I love you forever.

  • Yocean

    First of all: thank you so so much for this! Second; yeah I get the Shae thing was to foreshadow her jealousy over Sansa which might lead to her betrayal. But I thought the show was going on direction of giving Shae bigger part and more sympathetic than in book. Hope they will show her motivation more which might lead to ... Third: oh my god Talisa as Lannister spy?!! That would make the Red Wedding completely devastating. And maybe Shae was Tywin's spy from very begging? I mean we all know she ends up in his bed. Ohhh can't wait

  • e-money

    The Red Wedding isn't devastating enough already?!?!? My, what thick skin you have!

  • manting

    1. A says thank you for the post - Appreciated
    1a. That video was . . .Wow. Whomever created the video deserves a round of applause, it totally convinced me

    Some theories in order of likelihood

    Jon is definitely the son of Rheagar and Lyanna, both the books and the show give a million hints towards this.

    The hound is alive and is the new gigantic silent brother at the riverlands monestary.

    Dany is Azhor Azhai - the sword of fire is actually her dragons. The only other option is Jon - (sword of fire would be Longclaw)

    Jamie will kill Cersie, not Tyron

    My question to you dear readers is - Can a warg/skinchanger meld/bond with a dragon? The Varamyr chapter in DoD informs us that a skinchanger can slip into the skin of any animal and that Jon is incredibly powerful. I believe that is what makes Jon special - He is a Targareyn and a skinchanger. Plus how cool would it be to have an albino direwolf and a dragon? Cooler than the other side of my pillow.

  • BendinIntheWind

    One quibble: I think it's heavily hinted that Ser Robert Strong is actually Gregor Clegane, The Mountain. There's a lot of sneakery in never describing what happens to The Mountain's body (just that his head is sent to Dorne, but Robert Strong never removes his helmet so who knows what's under there), and Cersei explicitly gave Qyburn permission to experiment on the dying Mountain.

  • Ser Robert Strong isn't the same person as the one at the monastery in the Riverlands. He's at the Red Keep with the imprisoned Cersei (or was at least introduced to her there).

  • manting

    Strong is definitely clegane - zero doubt - he is also some puppeters, falyse stokeworth, and some other folks too. A frankenstein monster made by Qyburn. Either the hound or Jamie kill him. I think the hound goes to kingslanding with Jamie - They meet up somehow in the riverlands

  • manting

    to clarify the Clegane who is Robert Strong is Gregor (the mountain that rides) while Sandor (the hound) is now a monk in the RIverlands. When Brienne, Hyle Hunt, the septon and his dog come to the hidden by tides monastary there is a new brother digging graves and he
    1. Throws dirt on them - something Sandor would totally do
    2. The dog that travels with the septon (named dog) runs up to him and he pets him. - hounds know one and other
    3. He is described as being as big or bigger than Brienne - she is huge in the Books - few men are as big
    4. He has a bad limp - the injury that Arya sniifed from his thigh
    5. He was dying, had no where to go, no money, and the elder brother (an ex-knight whose life story is similar to the hounds) finds him and helps him in return the hound takes vows.
    I think it makes sense

  • BendinIntheWind

    Ah, sorry, I misunderstood who you were referring to - totally forgot about the Riverlands bit.

  • KingEntropy

    I feel that Jon is a more likely candidate for being Azhor Azhai.

    He's connected with the Night's Watch (and effectively the focus of the White Walker side of the saga) and Melisandre saw images of him wielding the fiery sword Lightbringer, and appearing as a wolf (warg with Ghost).

    There is also a strong possibility of his parents being Lyanna and Rhaegar ("Promise me Ned").

    Clegane is indeed now a monk (the Hound part of him is "dead"),

    Jaime will DEFINITELY kill Cersei.

  • manting

    I hear you but its the dragons that will win the day, without the dragons the white walkers win. Jon is obviously a Targaryen and key to the winning the war against the white walkers, but it is Dany who forged light bringer (the dragons) Even the way the Dragons were hatched follows the story of light bringers forging by salador saan, by this I mean that both require a life. Life pays for life!
    No comment on my skinchange with a dragon theory/question?
    MIlisandre also sees Stannis as Ahzor Azhai not Jon. She is either evil, being duped by her own god, or, the most likely, misreading her signs. Her "viewings" cannot be trusted. She misread Stannis as Ahzor Azhai, misread the battle of the blackwater, and misread the girl riding to the wall was Arya. I would say she knows Stannis is not Ahzor Azhai because the way she has light bringer is forged. Maester Aemon recognizes this right away "light without heat, a false glammour." ( or something - thats from memory)

  • Morgan_LaFai

    Either she is reading the fire wrong, which I think is the case with Arya, or she is being told by the fire to lie. If her god tells her to lie to Stannis in order to get to Jon and the Wall with an army in tow she would tots do it.

  • manting

    but you would agree that the dragons are required for victory against the walkers right? The weapon that is required to defeat them is a "sword of fire." Woulldnt that be the dragons? Since Dany is the mother of dragons then she would be Azhor Azhai. Also as Sam finds the others can be harmed by "dragon steel," which is valaryian steel and dragon glass which is obsidian. If you look at the prophesy - Dany is the only one who fulfills the requirements. I think you are downplaying the importance of the dragons too much

    Still no comment on skinchanging with a dragon?

  • foolsage

    I'll jump in. While I think the dragons are very likely to end up opposing the Others, I don't think they're necessarily the "sword of fire". Melisandre repeatedly made a pretty convincing fake "sword of fire" out of cheap steel; I think she could make the real thing out of, say, a Valyrian steel sword like Longclaw. That's not to say that the dragons wouldn't make a perfectly serviceable "sword of fire"; they would. My point is merely that there's another likely option to consider.

    About the dragon skinchanging I can only speculate; we really have little to go on there. Dragons in Westeros are not sentient, which suggests that a warg might be able to control them, like any other animal. Whether the magical nature of dragons would interfere with the process (or make this easier) I have no idea. However, there's no lore about this to be found; instead, we know that dragons were once controlled using enchanted dragon horns (like Dragonbinder).

    Honestly, I half expect at some point that Victarion will use Dragonbinder to control one of Dany's dragons, and a warg (Bran or Jon) will break the spell by taking direct control.

  • manting

    Yes the sword of fire could be several things. What we do know is that stannis's sword lightbringer is not it. Maester Aemon clearly states this and there is a clue in the book he has Jon read. Prophecy is never literal and often confusing in the GoT world. It is compared to having your cock bitten off by a women at one point. So I think the sword of fire is not a literal sword but a reference to Dragons. (who are fire made flesh)
    I like your second theory. And you know that the three eyed crow is Bloodraven, who is also a Targaryean (on the wrong side of the sheets)
    There is also a chance that Jamie, Cersie, and Tyron are Targaryean as well. In DoD Barristan refers to the Mad Kings love for Tywin Lannisters wife and the inappropriate stuff he did during the bedding portion of the wedding. Its a slim chance but not to be ignored.
    Victarions only pupose, i believe is to providea fleet for her army to get to westeros. I cant see him serving her unless Moroqou somehow convinces him. I have read the Victarion chapter from the upcoming book and he is going to use the horn - whether he can control a dragon with it is another matter.

  • Jebus

    Is it really screwing with the timeline if the books aren't really in chronological order?

  • foolsage

    From what I can see, things still happen in the same order, from the perspective of the characters. The TV show more closely follows the "real" chronology, while the books had overlaps and gaps.

  • SnowMan

    Although that "Talisa is a Lannister spy" video blew my mind and, initially, seemed like a great idea to me, now that I've had a couple of hours of reflection, I sincerely hope that is not the way things are headed on the show.
    For this reason: it would further remove Jon's story from one of the poetic underlying themes in the books: that the Stark men get killed when they are too anxious to be noble and "do the right thing," without thinking through the long-term implications of their actions.
    In the book, Rob ends up with Jeyne for two reasons: 1) He is a horny teenage boy who gives in to his lust in a moment of weakness after learning of the fall of Winterfell. 2) Realizing he has taken Jeyne's honor, he does what he believes is the noble, correct thing by marrying her.
    (Side note regarding the themes of sexism in Westeros: Rob would not have made these mistakes if he had kept his mother by his side and listened to her advice, rather than sending her off on errands, partially because she was a woman, and thus not fit for the King's Council).
    In the show, Rob ends up with Talisa because he is a horny young man and apparently (conveniently) the only female in camp other than his mom is a hot girl his same age.
    I understand that they needed to condense the storyline for budgetary/time requirements, but I think it is a shame that Rob's storyline on the show is losing some of the tragedy of the way things played out in the books, by losing the noble intentions behind Rob's getting married to Jeyne and breaking his vows to the Freys. If it turns out that, in addition to that, he is also being duped by the Lannisters, well... the end result will still be tragic and heartbreaking, but, for me at least, not quite as poetically satisfying. I prefer the book's tragedy of a young man betrayed and murdered for doing his best to make noble choices (the same as his father) to the somewhat more cliched villainy of the TV show Lannisters simply taking advantage of Rob's being young and horny. To me it's much more tragic that a boy would die for trying to grow up into a good man, as opposed to a boy dying for making the stupid, shortsighted choices young men often make.

  • Agreed. It also loses the tragedy of the fact that Jeyne never wanted Robb to die and actually did love him. Her mother and grandmother were behind it (iirc -- and it makes it sound like a lesser Tyrell plot, actually), feeding her "love potions" to make her fertile when really, they were rendering her infertile. tbh, they smashed through that storyline the moment she said her name was Talisa Maegyr.

    The only thing I can think of that they could do to rectify this storyline and tie it into canon as much as possible is to yank a minor plot in ADWD about Maegyr, the Volantis tiger, and bring something about that family forward. Malaquo Maegyr hired the Golden Company to murder Benerro, a High Priest of R'hllor, who was preaching that Volantis should back Daenerys in her claim to the Throne. Malaquo Maegyr also supports the Yunkai (enemies of Daenerys once she seizes Meereen, essentially) and will try to sail the Volantis fleet against her.

    Perhaps Talisa is his exiled or estranged daughter.

  • foolsage

    I sort-of agree; it's more satisfying in one sense if the Stark kings are really their own worst enemies, and their nobility leads to their deaths. On the other hand, more intrigue and more evidence that the Lannisters are crafty bastards manipulating everything behind the scenes is quite welcome.

  • wojtek

    The best scenes are USUALLY ones that weren't from the book at all.

  • Mute Wes

    oh yeah and I'm laughing really hard at all the tv watchers that are prepared to watch Theon "escape". Its just too bad we don't get to see Kyra, but The Bastard's hunt of Theon is something we never got to read POV, and I'm hoping the show gives us a good glimpse into it.

  • space_oddity

    Cannot wait for this.

  • Mute Wes

    I think it would be really cool if talisa/jeyne ended up being planted by Tywin and co. Book readers couldn't complain since it's almost as popular as jon snow being rhaegar's bastard as far as theories go.

  • Pinky McLadybits

    My husband hasn't finished season 2 and refuses to read the books. He knows that I threw one of the books across the room. He was asking questions while watching the Season 3 premiere and I just replied, "Basically, all of them are right f*cked." I think that about sums it all up.

    Also? RED WEDDING! RED WEDDING! RED WEDDING! HOW MUCH WILL THEY SHOW?? AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

  • Tinkerville

    Everything. I have a feeling they're not going to shy away from horrifying the ever loving shit out of all of us.

  • Kristen Mc

    They better give us Jinglebell.

  • rubyviolet

    I love this! Thank you, I was dying! My husband won't read the books and nooooone of my friends do, so I'm alone...no one to talk to...

  • Kizer

    I think Catelyn's talk with Talisa foreshadows Rob legitimizing Jon as a Stark(which won't be revealed until much later). Jon is later revealed to be the son of Rhaegar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark and once killed in ADwD(and later resurrected by Melisandre) is released from his NW vows so he can begin his conquest for power. Anyone else?

  • manting

    I don't think he dies. He clearly is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He will remain at the wall to fight the others until the arrival of Dany and her Dragons

  • foolsage

    Yeah, that seems most likely. Jon's also probably the second coming of Azor Ahai. Evidence also suggests Jon will be one of the heads of the dragon, and possibly marry Dany (Targaryens like to, ahem, keep it in the family, after all).

  • Koolickle

    I like the theory that the prince who is promised and Azor Ahai are two different people. Dany was born again under the red comet among smoke and salt when her dragons are born and would be AA. Jon Snow as Lyanna/Rhaegar's child would be both fire (dragon) and ice (Stark), aka the prince. Of course, GRRM is the master troll would make Rhaegar the prophesied one so we find out after reading thousands of pages that the world was doomed when he died on the Trident.

  • foolsage

    Honestly, they're both kind of tied for both roles, and it could go either way. Dany and Jon both have claims to the role of the Prince (assuming Jon is Rhaegar's son), and assuming Jon is born again through Melisandre, he'll be at least as qualified as Dany to be Azor Ahai. Melisandre made a very impressive if disposable flaming sword repeatedly out of a piece of junk; what could she do with Valyrian steel?

    Frankly, my preferred interpretation would be that both of them are both characters; Dany is both and Jon is both, and their destinies are tied. The prophecies speak of two people, not one, and both fulfill the requirements. But I don't think this is likely.

  • linnyloo

    Oh! I hadn't thought about how if he technically dies, he'd be released from the Watch. That totally works.

  • Tinkerville

    Well, that's one loophole they probably never considered when they wrote the vows. You'd think with all the wights running around they would've added an amendment.

  • foolsage

    What's the need? The Night's Watch already knows who their foes are. Sounds the horn thrice.

  • Spoon

    Fantastic! So pleased you guys listened and decided to have a post for the book readers (and one by my favorite Pajiba recapper, no less!). Even if I probably won't be posting a lot, just wanted to say I'll be reading this eagerly and am hoping it'll be a weekly feature.

  • coryo

    Well, maybe not in that scene but we need "The Bear & The Maiden Fair" somewhere. People are walking around singing "The Rains of Castamere" like it's the only ditty in Westeros. Of course, it is less of a humming song and more of a SHOUTING song.

    As for Shae, I'm gonna pin a lot of it on her performance. I was never a big fan of the character, and the actress has not made inroads in changing that opinion.

    My biggest complaint, honestly, is on the Essos end. I love Dany's everything in the books, and I'm a big fan here too. I also love the whole inventing-the-language angle, but to make that something other than distracting, they need to get people who can actually make it sound natural. Most of the non-Common dialogue is not convincing. And if they keep it up with the languages (and the different Ghiscari dialects), it's only going to get more distracting.

  • bibliophile

    If I don't hear a Roy Dotrice version of "The Last of the Giants" I may just weep.

  • Just last week I begged for a Book Reader edition, and LO! BEHOLD! Pajiba hears the pleas of those stranded amongst non-readers, and answers accordingly. This is why I'll never leave. I really do love this site!

  • MrsAtaxxia

    That video just. Blew. My. MIND. If that's actually what's going on I am very impressed with both the showrunners and the whoever figured it out. Hats off to all involved.

  • Sherry

    That video had better be true because that's the one deviation from the book that still irritates the hell out of me due to its (at least thus far) nonsensicalness. [so nonsensical that I made up that word] I would totally accept this twist and be at peace with the change.

  • ExUSA

    If it's true, I can't help but think it's also going to pop up in the books somehow, too.
    I know GRRM has shared how the whole thing ends with the series producers in case he can't finish the books, so something like this would undoubtedly have to get his ok in case it would contradict a future plot point.

  • DocDoom

    In the books, Jeyne's mother is in league with Tywin, so maybe they just combining her into Talisa?

  • MrsAtaxxia

    This was my thinking too, they are folding Jeyne and her mom together and then instead of sending Jeyne back to Boltons bastard I think they are setting up Ros to be Sansa's doppleganger so we get Ros-as-Sansa headed to Winterfell instead of Jeyne-as-Arya. I think? Maybe? So many people to keep straight.

  • Nyltiak

    Jeyne Westerling is the Jeyne Robb marries in the book; Jeyne Poole is the daughter of Ned's steward who is married off to the Bastard of Bolton. I think there is another Jeyne in the books as well. Confusing, GRRM, confusing.

  • Wednesday

    Yeah, but how many people in your circle have common names? That's one thing I actually appreciate about SoI&F. The reuse of names.

  • sal paradise

    Wrong Jeyne! Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole is the Arya doppelganger, not Mrs. Jeyne Stark

  • SnowMan

    Different Jeyne.

    The Jeyne that is sent to Winterfell as Arya in "A Dance With Dragons" is Jeyne Poole, one of Sansa Stark's friends who originally went from Winterfell to King's Landing with Sansa in "A Game of Thrones" (the book).

  • MrsAtaxxia

    Arg! You're totally right. Too many damn Jaynes!

  • They have one Ned in the entire damn realm, but two Jeynes. GRRM Master Troll strikes again.

  • foolsage

    There are a lot more than two Jeynes. See above. ;)

    Also, Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall, was known as Ned.

  • foolsage

    No no no, Jayne Cobb is the security officer aboard Serenity. You're thinking of Jeyne Westerling, or the other Jeyne Westerling, or Jeyne Poole, or Jeyne Darry, or Jeyne Beesbury, or perhaps Jeyne Heddle.

    :D

  • MrsAtaxxia

    Well Jayne Cobb is the one in the hat. That one is easy. The rest I'm just conceding defeat and starting a Carrie-on-Homeland crazy person whole wall color coded post-it flow chart. IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CONTROL THE JEYNES.

    (It also does not help that I'm dyslexic and cannot spell to save my life so GRRMs creative names are kind of a minefield for me)

  • foolsage

    Well, let me see if I can help. Ahem.

    Jeyne Westerling married King Maegor, the First.
    Jeyne Heddle's an inkeep; she'll help with your thirst.
    Jeyne Poole was a stand-in for our Arya Stark.
    Jeyne Darry wed Ser Cleos Frey. What a lark.
    Jeyne Royce wed Jon Arryn, who died with no friend.
    Jeyne Westerling brought poor Robb Stark to his end.
    Jeyne Farman is hardly a part of our tale,
    And Canker Jeyne's really a Braavosi male.

  • JoannaRobinson

    I love love love love love.

  • foolsage

    Opportunities for posting anapestic tetrameter without looking like a lunatic are sadly few; I takes 'em where I finds 'em. Glad it entertained. I was going to edit and add to the poem but you'd posted already and I felt self-conscious. ;)

  • DocDoom

    What if, and this is crazy, but what if she's a Sand Snake? I don't know how or why she would be, but she looks like what imagined them to.

  • MrsAtaxxia

    I don't know how or why she would be either, but now that you say it, she does look sort of what I saw in my minds eye for the Dornish and for at least some of the Sand Snakes.

  • John W

    Best recap I've read so far.

    By the way you think maybe they're going to use Shae's jealousy as a reason for her actions later on down the road?

    In the book I never really got the impression that she truly cared for Tyrion, she was more interested in the things he could provide her. Whereas in the show Shae seems like she truly cares for him so her jealous nature might provide the motivation for what happens later.

  • competitivenonfiction

    I kind of saw the jealousy in the show as a sign that she had betrayed him. Kind of like in relationships where someone will start to get jealous and crazy because they're starting to wander.

  • Kristen Mc

    Exactly. Agreed.

  • pfeiffer87

    Can I just say that the kid who plays Joffrey is brilliant - so nuanced he's almost better than in the books! I really don't have a clue what's going on with Theon so I'm reading through the books again. I forgot that Anguy and Thoros of Myr actually won competitions in Joffrey's tourney, I'm looking forward to their storyline in the show. Also the casting for the Tyrrell's has been brilliant!

  • space_oddity

    Well, given in the books Joffrey's almost a caricature of a mustache-twirling villain, there was lots of room to improve. I am loving TV Joffrey.

  • $27019454

    Quick question: Is the show certainly following the books' basic plotlines and if so are they following season-book timeline? For example: Do you think Joffrey will die in Season 3 or will they draw it out till Season 4?

  • Morgan_LaFai

    In some of GRRM's interviews he has hinted that he thought the RW would be in the third season. I can't say about the other one.

  • Koolickle

    GRRM just confirmed he wrote the 2nd episode of season 4 and turned in a draft. I'd be ok with waiting until next season if he wrote the Purple Wedding. Also how out of left field would that be fore non-book readers to see Joff drop dead the second episode of the season?

  • Kristen Mc

    I thought they were splitting book 3 into two seasons.

  • $27019454

    Noooooo!

  • JoannaRobinson

    I believe episode 9 is going to be The Red Wedding so I could see Joff's death happening in episode 10 (I'll miss you, kid!) and the season ending with Tyrion's arrest.

  • John G.

    non-book readers are gonna go ape shit when Joff dies. I can't wait.

  • seanfast

    I agree episode 9 would probably be Red Wedding, esp based on your excellent deduction during the podcast about episode 9 in season 1 (baelor) and season 2 (blackwater) both being pivotal episodes. But I think Joffrey's death will probably be saved for next season.

    Episode 10's title translates to "Mother" in low Valyrian. Could this be a reference to the mother of dragons? OR could they have a scene at the end of the episode with Cat, following her death in episode 9, being resurrected?

  • I think you're right on the timeline, Joanna. Having Red Wedding as episode 9 would be the big moment to get everyone mad, and Joff's wedding following would give an equitable blow to the anti-Stark forces, and set up Tyrion's problems for us to sweat and fret about.
    \

  • Mute Wes

    yeah i think they're going to save Joff's death for season 4

  • Mrcreosote

    If they did the Red Wedding and Joff's death back to back, that would be the best two consecutive hours of TV in a long while. Think of the symmetry of two eldest sons dying back to back.

  • That's a great comparison, omfg.

  • $27019454

    YES!

  • Bothari

    I love that they've changed it just enough that I don't quite know what to expect. And I haaaaaaaated Book Theon and was very happy to have him flayed, but Show Theon has been just a smidge more sympathetic, so I'm interested to see how his half-assed redemption arc plays out on the screen.

  • coryo

    I don't want to see him flayed mostly because holyshitflayingishorrifying. But if show-Theon's scenes can make me half as physically uncomfortable as book-Theon's chapters did, I'll eat my shoe.

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