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10 Things We Learned From The Red Wedding Episode Of "Game Of Thrones": Spoiler Whore and Book Reader Edition

By Joanna Robinson | TV Reviews | June 5, 2013 | Comments ()


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Author's Note: Hey folks! We're back with a book spoiler-heavy "Game Of Thrones" rundown. If you're looking for eloquent or sophisticated analysis, I suggest you head on over to TK's superlative Monday recap. This post serves mainly as an outlet for all your pent-up frustrations at having to tip-toe around your book knowledge lest you spoil a "Game Of Thrones" newbie. So, in case it isn't clear, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED BY BOOK KNOWLEDGE OR SOME INSIDER SHOW INFO, GET OUT OF HERE. SERIOUSLY, WHAT IN THE SEVEN 'ELLS ARE YOU DOING HERE? LEAVE OR ELSE JON SNOW WILL SAY SOME KNOW-NOTHING THING AGAIN!

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Are they gone? Phew. Anything goes in the comments, folks. We're hoping this will help curb some of your urges to spoil in the regular recap. Have at it!--JR

1. I'm Going To Ease You Into This: Hey let's talk about that ver-ry innocuous Sam and Gilly scene. It was pretty cute. Our man Sam got some compliments. Sam talked a bit about the Nightfort and I learned the phrase "sally port." If he already knows the way to the Black Gate does that mean we won't get any Coldhands? We have to have Coldhands and I demand he show up next week. We can bandy this about in the comments if you like (I know there's evidence refuting this particular Coldhands theory), but I will accept no other reveal than the image below.
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2. A Near Reunion At Queenscrown The Gift: First of all, I don't mean to sound like an insufferable stickler, but how much cooler would this entire plot have been if it had taken place at Queenscrown? I mean just imagine it. Anyway, even though it didn't, we got a very well done sequence between Hodor, Bran, Rickon, Osha and The Reeds. The tension was palpable. I'm excited they showed Bran warging into Hodor and it will be even more fun to see him warg into The Big Guy when we get to the fight sequence from "A Dance With Dragons." Those of you who were annoyed that Rickon and Osha have been sticking around (probably to help ease us into the new Reed characters) were rewarded this week with their departure. There was also a mention of House Umber. Delightful.
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3. Someone Felt An Ache Out In The Rain: Overall the show has painted Ygritte as much more sympathetic than she is in the book. Her defense for killing the old man made her actions seem almost merciful. She's also so much more Team Jon in the show than she is in the book. Fat lot of good it did her.
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Rose Leslie has been doing all the heavy lifting in this plot line and she didn't disappoint in this scene. Her death (next season?) will be very poignant and not because of Jon Snow's reaction.
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4. OMG, Isn't Dany Lucky That Daario Thought Of That Neat Plan? I don't like Dany's bit of strategy taken from her. I don't like the disappointed look on Jorah's face. And I REALLY don't like you, Daario Naharis. What I did love, however, was the fighting style they gave Jacob Anderson's Grey Worm. That was a show stopper right there. Great fighting from all three, but the spear twirls were a particular highlight.
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5. *Rains Of Castamere Starts Playing*: Okay. Here we go. Amazing job with Arya's section of this storyline. The crumpled look on her little face when she sees the Stark men killed and then the complete horror when Grey Wind gets it? Gut churning. Who here hoped she would free Grey Wind so he could at least tear a few throats out before he went down? Nope. No dice. At least the show didn't leave her fate in question the way George RR Martin did. "His axe took her in the back of the head?" George, you sick bastard.
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6. Screw You, Filch: First of all, is this not one of the worthiest puns you've ever seen?
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Secondly, though they didn't make a big deal of the Guest Rights ritual, they did include it. That was for us. I have to commend the casting department for their selection of David Bradley who could not have been more perfect as that slithering slime weasel Walder Frey. All the Freys and the ambience of The Twins? Perfection.

7. Sleeve Jolt: In the name of efficient storytelling, the characters at the wedding were massive condensed. That being said, I didn't mind Roose Bolton standing in for Edwyn Frey because it meant we got to see Cat slap the sh*t out of him. That was somewhat satisfying. Bolton was shooting her the queerest looks in this scene and while I can't accurately catalogue the nature of all of them, the overall affect was suitably creepy and menacing.
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8. Who Hired These Musicians? They're so good! And they were. Alas. I really wanted a band of clumsy assassins throttling the life out of their instruments. Also, hi drummer from Coldplay! How nice of you to join us!
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9. And Then It Got Really Bad: We all knew it was coming. Some of us have even been rubbing our hands together with glee at the gruesome surprise in store for the unknowing masses. And yet. And still. It was harrowing as hell.
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And was the Talisa inclusion the most harrowing part? And was it necessary? Most argue that the Freys went right for her belly to blot out all future Stark lines. Lord Walder, of course, never misses what's going on underneath a dress. But this was massively upsetting. It also puts to rest the Lannister Honeypot Theory. Some of you are still holding out hope for the Honeypot and think Talisa was rubbed out to tie up loose ends, but I think that would be an impossibly clumsy reveal. It would have been slick as hell to have her whip out a knife and start slicing throats, but to have Tywin or someone else explain her involvement next week? No. Too much. Rest in Peace, Honeypot. You gave me hours of amusement. This also throws a major wrench in the Jeyne Westerling Is Pregnant And In Hiding Theories. Sorry, Book Readers. I hate to kill a good conspiracy theory.
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10. Uh, Let's Keep Jaime Out Of It: Presumably because the show worked so hard to get us to like Jaime Lannister this season, his name was kept out of the episode and the famous "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" was slightly modified. Still, chilling. Cut to silence.
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New Character Rundown:

1. Ser Wendel Manderly: HOUSE MANDERLY REPRESENT! I hope you all were overjoyed to see White Harbor at The Twins. I missed a lot of the Stark Bannerman. Dacey Mormont in particular. But at least we got to see this little seed planted. Hopefully there are some piping hot pies in the Frey future. The North Remembers, you know.
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Best Line
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In Memorium
Talisa Madeuplastname And Little Eddarda? Eddardina? Merry? Eddard Stark
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The King In The North And Grey Wind
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Catelyn Stark
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Orell (Not pictured. Don't care.)

What On Earth Are They Going To Do Next Week?
Can they possibly pull off the Purple Wedding? No. We haven't even met the Martell's yet. Presumably we'll see ol' Balon Greyjoy kick the bucket. But who on earth cares about that? Some are speculating that we'll see the reveal of Lady Stoneheart. I watched an interview with Weiss and Benioff and they did an amazing job acting choked up as if they were never going to work with Michelle Fairley again. They can pull that off for a week, but will they be able to keep Fairley's casting a secret for a year? I don't know. If we are going to see Lady Stoneheart next week (and that would be in keeping with the fantastical/magical reveals of the two previous season finales), I wish they had shown us Thoros and Beric this week. It'll be awkward to get all the players in place. That being said, after Michelle Fairley's amazing performance on Sunday, I am more eager than ever for her return.
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Best Random Image Of The Week
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Joanna Robinson is the God of Snits and Whine. Findher on Twitter, podcasting about "Game Of Thrones" or generally mucking about. Send a raven, won't you?




Mindhole Blowers: 20 Strange, Inane and Stupid Things Celebrities Said | Live and Let Die by Ian Fleming






Are you following Pajiba on Facebook or Twitter? Every time you do, Bill Murray crashes a wedding.


Comments Are Welcome, Bigots and Trolls Are Not


  • One thing I was wondering was what happened to the scene where Robb legitamized Jon Snow (Stark) and named him his heir? Does this mean that scene was pointless in the book or will it be a reveal for show watchers down the line?

  • Dell Conagher

    Anyone know where I can get the TEAMWORK image in higher resolution? It's just so hilarious!

  • Maddy

    I'm actually excited to see Asha next week ( I refuse to call her Yara). I'm assuming they're going to reveal Ramsay next week - I just don't understand how this is a big reveal to show watchers though? Why would they care?

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Maddy, I excited to see Asha too. I'm a fan of the Ironborn maneuverings from the book. I also hope that they reveal Ramsay's identity. My guess is that people won't be that surprised, but keeping him disassociated from Roose Bolton directly keep Roose off of the show watcher Villain Radar. So the coup de grace on Robb had that extra dimension.

    I know people who really didn't even recognize that it was Roose Bolton who stabbed Robb (because they weren't paying attention to Bolton before.) On their second rewatch of Rains of Castamere, they uniformly went Sonuvabitch! when they first see Roose in Robb's wedding party, and they connected him with the Dude Who Let Jaime Go On.

  • Maddy

    I love how show watchers are now discovering that it is the supposed less important characters that often have the most interesting stuff going on behind the scenes, and are the ones you should be watching out for - not just the obvious ones like Dany or Jon Snow (not that anyone cares about Jon in the show)

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I'm also hoping that when people go back and do re-watches, they'll find conversations between secondary characters more meaningful. There's not a lot of wasted dialog in the shows.

  • Scorptilicus

    It didn't occur to me until he failed to show up that it's not entirely necessary for Coldhands to meet Sam. We could just let Bran or Jojen have a "feeling" that he can be trusted or something.

    If it is Benjen, I wonder if they'll be able to hide that fact from us on the show. They could even go the route of casting a different actor at first, a la Jaqen at the end of season one.

    Personally, I think we shouldn't see Beric or Thoros until the very last scene of the season, much like Sam, Grenn, and Edd didn't show up until last season's final scene. We get a moment of "Hey, it's THESE guys again" and viewers get their supernatural "Holy sh*t!".

  • Maddy

    Anyone else think Tormund is Ygritte's dad in the show?

  • The Wolf King

    I always said they just sent Jeyne back home, and wrote her off. Especially once Rob died. I am a little disappointed that they let arya arrive at the time she did, don't get me wrong the scene was excellent, but I rather they left everything in that chapter as is. Plus I'm still waiting until they dump rob's body, because in the book it was pretty crazy, what the frey's do to make the wolf king...........I just can't believe you let the cat out of the bag(no pun intended), with Catelyn's character for those who haven't read the book yet.........

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Joanna said it better then I can, but seriously Wolf King? This site is heavily advertised as a no holds barred spoiler discussion. It's for people who either have read the books (Book Reader edition) or people who don't sweat getting spoiled (Spoiler Classy Lady of the Evening edition.)

    Complaining about spoilers here is somewhat an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance. But it does give me a chance to use big words. So complain away.

  • JoannaRobinson

    You mean you can't believe I let the cat out of the bag here in this spoiler post that's labeled with a massive cautionary introductory paragraph about how there are spoilers in the post and DID YOU EVEN READ THE HEADLINE?

  • Maddy

    If any non-readers read this and got spoiled they have only themselves to blame!

  • Lindsey Romain

    I sort of hope they save the Lady Stoneheart reveal. I know chronologically it would make sense to have it this season, but that's only if they showed the actual resurrection, which we the reader never see - we just see her later on, after it happened. Why should the show be any different? I think it'd be a better cap for next season - it gives us more time to feel her absence so that her re-arrival is really exciting and jarring. If it's just an episode later it sucks some of the wind out of the Red Wedding. I'd rather the season end on Cold Hands personally, especially if Cold Hands really is Benjen - if he is, that's a perfect closing moment and perhaps why they saved it instead of putting it in that Sam/Gilly scene from a few weeks ago. (Although I do like the potential "Mother" tie-in with Dany, that could be a really powerful theme.)

    I also hope Ygritte dies in the finale. I think killing her off next season would make it fall at a really odd time. With all of the build up of her romance with Jon, I think she deserves a finale death. If they saved it for next season it would have to be in the first few episodes, and that puts Jon's narrative in an odd place. Better to start out next season with Jon hating himself immediately. It's just cleaner that way.

  • Christopher A

    The show doesn't need Michelle Fairly to play a river swollen zombie...anyone in a rubber mask would be able able to do that.

  • Maddy

    Fat Walda shoutout was pretty much my favourite thing ever. Oh Roose you are one classy dude!

  • Maddy

    Roose Bolton's face gave me chills - that actor is so spot on it's ridiculous. I wish they had blocked the scene better when he stabbed Robb though it was so weird and awkward how they shot that. I don't understand why people wanted the musicians to be terrible in the show - it's really good in the books but there's no way that would work on screen - when Rains of Castamere started playing and Cat started to realise I put my hand to my mouth and almost couldn't watch anymore.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Maddy, I'm in totaly agreement. The actor playing Roose Bolton is the best. The musical performance is also something (like Roose's whisper, Vargo Hoat's lisp, or Daario's visual look) that works fine in the books, but would not be as good if faithfully presented on the screen.

  • competitivenonfiction

    A bit of a diversion. If episode 9 is traditionally where shit goes down, what do you all think will be in episode 9 of season 4?

  • Maddy

    Actually I really hope it's Lysa out the Moon Door. I remember that being such an Oh shit! moment in the books

  • competitivenonfiction

    That would be so satisfying. It could also be done in the last few seconds of the episode.

  • Maddy

    I'm assuming they're going to be bringing in stuff from Feast for next season so hard to say ... I think after this they should probably really abandon the whole episode 9 climax thing ... but possibly Tyrion strangling Shae/ shooting Tywin. If Tywin doesn't die in the privy I will be so pissed

  • competitivenonfiction

    I was thinking about whether or not they'd abandon it too, but they're almost locked into it now. What would be sneaky is if they include something that is very significant, but not at all exciting. Something that leads to something exciting. Tywin dying seems more likely though.

  • Maddy

    I was so happy when they introduced the golden necklace - Shae is so getting chocked (not that I think she deserves to die but it's important to include)

  • foolsage

    Good question. This really depends on the pacing; as we know, Season 3 didn't get us all the way through the third book.

    Possibly, it'll be Tyrion shooting Tywin. If so, then the season finale will probably include Margaery marrying little Tommen.

  • Juwan Dickerson

    I don't understand why everyone thinks that Lady Stonehart will be in the season finale. I'm sure that would be awesome to see but it's too soon. Lady Stonehart wasn't introduced literally until the last paragraph of Book Three. I know they rearrange storylines and go off the page often but if they do that it's still kind of soon. There's still a lot of aftermath to deal with from The Red Wedding. We'll probably see Robb's body with Greywinds head on it and Kat getting thrown in the river at least. I just think going all the way with it might be too soon.

  • foolsage

    Cat was raised from the dead three days after she died, which means it ought to be in the next episode or two. The books are constrained by the POV of the various characters, so the timeline there jumps around a lot. The series tends to stick much more closely to the actual chronology of events than the books do.

    If we're to see Cat rise from the dead, it ought to be next episode, chronologically and dramatically. The wounds are still fresh in the hearts of viewers, after all, and having Cat come back in a year wouldn't be nearly as shocking as having her come back the episode after we see her throat slit. If we don't see it next episode, we probably won't see it, and instead they'll reveal her quite a while from now (probably late next season, depending on how they work out season 4 relative to the book content).

  • Juwan Dickerson

    Actully after thinking about it some more I can see a reasonable scenario that they could do it and it would be a cool and chilling image to see her resurrection. I think if in a early scene we see her body get thrown in the river at the twins for later context. Then in the last few minutes show a short montage of her body floating face down in the river or at the river bank and she's fished out by the brotherhood and Beric recognizes her and he is overcome with grief and starts praying over her and then he falls over dead and the last shot could be the camera panning up to her gray waterlogged face then she opens her eyes. Cut to black.

  • Ashley

    I say season premiere next year

  • Maddy

    On a practical level, I just don't see how they can keep it a secret for filming - it's going to have to be next episode - and it did happen shortly after the RW, we just didn't find out about it until later in the books

  • Labyrinthian

    If we'll supposedly see Balon Greyjoy go to Davy Jones' locker, does that mean we have a chance of seeing Euron and Victarion? It would be awesome, but I doubt it will happen this season :(. On the other hand, I can't wait to see UnCat and Oberyn Martell (We hardly knew ye, but still so badass).

    Changing subject: ok, so Grey Wind was definitely offed in the show. And it seemed so in the book as well, but later it wasn't so clearly. To quote TV Tropes: "Grey Wind. During the Red Wedding, he was kept chained to a post outside the castle, and so when letters came to King's Landing saying that his head had been lopped off and sewn to Robb's chest, there's no reason not to believe it. It wasn't until two books later that it was remarked that during the massacre, one of the Westerling knights had freed him from a net the Freys had thrown over him and that he was last seen running toward the woods. True, his immediate future wasn't looking too good, what with being pierced by several crossbow bolts and all, but his previously reported death now isn't a 100% certainty.

    So, thoughts? I personally hope for survival, but considering Mr Martin's history...

  • manting

    no he is dead - a ton of people saw the body of rob with Grey wind's head sewn on and the crown of the king of north nailed on hanging on the walls of the twins. It is such a very Frey thing to do that I am sure Greywind is dead

  • Palaeologos

    I can't be the only one who noticed that Walder Frey never dipped his bread in the salt.

  • Carey Adams

    Has there been any news at all on casting the Red Viper? Or is it still too early?

  • Mimi Honeycutt

    They're casting him now, along with Ellaria, Mace, and the Magnar.

  • Ashley

    So now that we are getting the Martells and Tyrells what will be the tension between the houses since they cut Willas. And i'm hoping after Loras joins the kingsguard Tywin is all like Cersei you shall be wed to Oberyn Martell like in the books.

  • This is what I'm curious about. The whole point of the Martell/Tyrell feud was Willas. His leg, more specifically. So with no Willas, how do you develop this long-standing feud that goes back way farther than recent events in King's Landing?

    The only thing I can think of is perhaps having Mace present Loras as a groom for Arianne and being rebuffed by Doran, but that still doesn't give the level of hatred that exists in the books.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I'd like to see Ser Loras get Joffrey to accept him into the Kingsguard entirely to avoid marrying Cersei.

    The opposite of why Jaime got Aerys to accept him into the Kingsguard.

    Jaime: I had to always be near my twin.
    Loras: Gotta get me a chastity belt between me and your twin.

  • Ashley

    Also will they have Taena of Myr I hope they do but they change her to be a summer islander especially since they worship a god similar to the one of tits and wine.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I hope we see as many as the Cersei rogue gallery characters as we can, when they start in on her misrule from book four. I *loved* the Cersei POV chapters, she was such a train wreck.

  • manting

    I hope next episode they show Grey Winds head attached to robs body with the crown nailed on there. It will make the Freys even more hated and its just such a cruel and grim image

  • competitivenonfiction

    I don't want to see this on screen. I spent the whole last episode terrified they'd show it. Oh god so horrible.

  • Maddy

    I agree - I think it's awful enough just mentioning it. Sometimes less is more - which on an entirely different note pretty much sums up my thought about the Theon storyline this season

  • Ashley

    They will show that for sure.Plus it is a hallmark of the Red Wedding

  • Ashley

    So looking ahead to next season what do you think episode 9 will be? And also I hope that they introduce Doran and Arianne because in my opinion the biggest problem with Feasts (I did really like Feast except for Dorne and the excessively meandering Brienne did) was Dorne and I think that was because of how late it was introduced. So if i'm the showrunners I would have an added scene of Doran and Oberyn and even Arianne discussing going to king's landing and how Oberyn wants to go to get justice. I think this will wet the viewers toes and also be a nice cop out too for viewers,lull them into thinking Oberyn and the Martells are gonna totally destroy the Lannisters.

  • competitivenonfiction

    The Dorne parts would have been my favourite had they been introduced earlier, but it was hard to get attached to them after watching so many characters die.

  • Maddy

    I cannot wait for Dorne! I hope the Red Viper is awesome

  • Ashley

    Totally agree he even could have had Dorne earlier since Myrcella was there!

  • BlackRabbit

    I'm anxiously waiting for the most important casting of all. Ser Pounce of the Kingsguard!

  • space_oddity

    I only just watched it. Very upset that Fat Walda wasn't nearly as corpulent as described in the book. I always pictured a female George RR Martin.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    She was too big to get through the door. You saw a different Walda, Big Boned Walda.

  • NathanielS

    I am sad :(

  • Pat Sponaugle

    It'll be okay, man. It'll be okay. There there.

  • Ashley

    Are the Umbers going to have a part to play because they've mentioned them multiple times this season. Also Tywin and Tryrion are going to have a scene where all the details of the wedding will be told him and if Talisa was a spy Tywin would only have to say a line or two and thats it.And Coldhands is NOT Benjen it is the Night's King it is KNOWN Joanna.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    But what ... what if it's the Night's King in Benjen Stark's body?

  • JoannaRobinson

    BOOM

  • Ashley

    Would you ever do a spoiler post with all the theories crackpottiest of the crackpottiest?

  • competitivenonfiction

    This sounds like a perfect summer comment diversion. I'd also read along with other "predictions" if it was a spoiler free post.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I've got your back in this Joanna. The Coldhands==Benjen Theory won't die. Won't. Can't.

  • Ashley

    But but Leaf said Coldhands died long ago,so if somebody who is about 200 years old says somebody is old I doubt they mean only a year old.Plus you're gonna tell me Benjen wouldn't have said hey what's up Bran and Hodor. Benjen=Coldhands Theory = D.O.A BOOM

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I'm not disputing what you are saying. But to reiterate my point... if the consciousness we call Coldhands is inhabiting the body of a dead Benjen Stark... it doesn't change Coldhands being ancient, or that the body looks like Benjen (because it happens to be Benjen's body. Dead cold handed body.)

    The animating consciousness is not Benjen's. (But I won't rule out a piece of Benjen still being there, just like Hodor is still there when inhabited by Bran's consciousness.)

    This Theory is Not Yet Dead. Not until my cold dead hands can no longer type.

  • The_Ghost_of_Bo_Crowder

    So basically Coldhands warged into Benjen Stark's body?

  • foolsage

    Huh. Plausible theory.

  • manting

    since the white walkers are only recently active again it must be Benjen or someone from 1000 + years ago (or however long ago the last white walker uprising was) since leaf says "they killed him long ago"

  • Ashley

    Well Pat of House Sponaugle we shall just have to wait and see that is if this series ever gets finished.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Well said, Ashley of House (Guest), well said.

    As always, I invite with good cheer any mockery when I am proved wrong. (As is my custom, I will cry in private.)

  • I was disappointed only that the GreatJon Umber wasn't prominent in the transition from bedding to, um, what came after. Otherwise, ungh.... As brutal as it gets. Bolton was used brilliantly, the silent menace has been there form the beginning.

  • DarthCorleone

    Well, that had cut GreatJon out of the entire season, which was disappointing.

  • It's disappointing because he was great when first introduced. Why make a point of lopping off his finger in a scene, only to discard the character, when his next most significant moment was at the RW? Boo.

  • Maddy

    I think they had scheduling issues with the actor. But I agree that it sucks that Robb had no loyal bannerman in the show so it was just a massacre.

  • I didn't notice Manderley, but that is awesome. His house does play an important part later on, with Davos and Rickon. And the Pies, of course.

  • Greg Dieter

    Talisa's death doesn't destroy the theory. They went directly for the belly (Rob's baby) when they killed her. Not that I believe the theory fully, but they could have easily decided she had to die because she was pregnant with Rob's heir.

  • Greg Dieter

    And I doubt we hear about Balon next week. His death, based on the leaches, would make the Purple Wedding too predictable for viewers.

  • Mimi Honeycutt

    HBO has an awesome sense of humor: https://twitter.com/HBOGriefCo...

  • Yes, the Onion also lived up to their billing.

  • Laura

    I forgot to get an opinion - I can't remember how it's written, but did anyone else think it was a little odd that Jon didn't even give one glance to Ygritte before riding off? Or did I miss that?

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Laura, if Jon could have spared the glance, I'm sure he would have. But taking a moment to look back would have likely gotten him killed.

    It did make Jon appear somewhat of a jerk, and it was rough seeing Ygritte's heartbroken shocked expression.

  • She was supposed to shoot an arrow into his leg. I missed that.

  • Alan

    i was SOOO ANGRY this didn't happen. he totally deserved that shit.

  • foolsage

    Yup, she was. I missed that as well.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Figgy, I think you are correct, that Ygritte tagged Jon in the leg.

  • Jasper Ferrer

    maybe since lady stoneheart showed up so rarely, Michelle Fairley would only be guest starring.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    JRob, thanks for pointing out Manderly. I remember noting the dude's moustache, but missed the mermaid. Thumbs up.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I would have liked to have had Roose Bolton specify Jaime Lannister sending his regards, within earshot of Catelyn. So Lady Stoneheart would have an even extra dose of misplaced revenge motivation. But I'll take the Red Wedding that the gave us. It was pretty awesome.

  • I'm guessing her hatred will encompass all the Lannisters, burning even more for Jaime (because he's the one who swore an oath to her), so it wasn't that big a deal to me.

  • Aren't going to be many Lannisters left either, shortly.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Agreed. I remember when Cat died in the book, and I was bummed because it removed any chance for a Jon/Cat reconciliation (look, I can dream, can't I.) Then when she appeared in the epilogue, it didn't breath new undead life into my reconciliation dream, but it created the shambling notion of a Jon/Catelyn battle royale should they come face to face.

    Lady Stoneheart: Baaaasssstttaaaaaarrrrddddd...

    Jon: OMG! WTF!!!??!!!

  • foolsage

    Now there's an even better opportunity: zombie Cat vs zombie Jon.

  • Ashley

    I would love to see that!

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I'm looking forward to the Balon death scene, not just because I want to see if Jaqen H'ghar does it, or if Euron Crow's Eye is behind it, or if a smoke monster from Dragonstone does it (none of those are likely...), but I want to set up the fact that Theon, poor junkless Theon, is now the King of the Iron Isles. (Before the election, I mean. (But maybe still technically king after the election.))

    In the books, we didn't know Theon was still alive, so I didn't worry to much about him as rightful king of the smelly non-sowing Viking-esque Ironborn. I think it's cool now that the Bolton's have him, especially if there's focus on Yarasha and the kingsmoot next season.

  • foolsage

    Theon never was and will never be in any sense King of the Iron Islands. Euron would very probably have taken the crown if Aeron hadn't called for a Kingsmoot.

    Remember, the Ironborn believe in the iron price; you have to take what you want. You have to earn the respect and power you seek. Your blood isn't enough.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I disagree, as Aeron Damphair called a Kingsmoot precisely to avoid normal bloodline succession going to Euron, as the eldest of Balon's surviving brothers. There is some weight to a Theon claim.

    You are right though that the Ironborn respect strength more than the convential rules of succession.

  • foolsage

    Two points:

    1) As you pointed out, Euron's blood claim was stronger than Theon's. Thus, Theon was never first in succession by blood.

    2) Euron's claim was strong in part because of his blood, but also in large part because people respected him as a captain and a reaver. This whole point was driven home pretty hard in the scenes between Theon and Asha, where his new crew treat him like a joke but have massive respect for her. Theon was male and older but that didn't mean anything to his crew, because he hadn't proven himself as one of them.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    1) A son's claim is stronger than an uncles, or else Stannis would be king even if Joffrey was Bob's trueborn son.

    2) I totally agree with you, but although I might have put too much emphasis in my original post in declaring Theon the Butt in the Sea-Stone chair, his claim is stronger than Euron's, even if Euron has a stronger realpolitik position.

  • foolsage

    What's true in King's Landing is not necessarily true in Pyke, and vice versa. ;)

  • Pat Sponaugle

    It's not necessarily untrue either. The discussion of succession pre-kingsmoot seemed informed by the conventional succession rules followed on the mainland.

  • foolsage

    Fair point. I've been poking about in Westeros.org and A Wiki of Ice and Fire to see if I could find something more concrete about ironborn succession, but no joy is to be found there, grey or otherwise.

    Anyhow, Theon sure is a mess. All hail King Reek? :D

  • Pat Sponaugle

    Thumbs up on the research. And let me re-emphasize that you make a compelling argument. I have no doubt that if Theon tried to press his claim, and any time, with all of his digits, he'd have been drowned as a practical joke.

  • foolsage

    I found something that undermines my arguments above, while poking about in the Red Wedding chapter. Cat's talking to Roose, and this happens:

    "He is Balon Greyjoy's only living son," Lord Bolton said softly, as if they had forgotten, "and now rightful King of the Iron Islands. A captive king has great value as a hostage."

    So, ok, you were right and I was wrong. Even if his people would never accept it, technically Theon was rightful king for a bit there.

  • Ashley

    I think you have a good point about Theon and his claim but I feel like his purpose is either as a sacrifice because he technically is a king or as a way to step around Euron and force him out. If I remember Yarasha's nuncle Rodrik gave her a book that dealt with kingsmoots and succession history.

  • manting

    it is the botley kid who reminds Asha of the story of the guy who was away reaving when his father the king died and his younger brothers held a kingsmoot without him. Upon his return they declared the kingsmoot invalid since the person with the strongest claim was not present. Asha plans on doing the same - since Theon had the strongest claim and was not present then the Kingsmoot is invalid.

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