Pajiba

Excellently posed questions Courtney. More than anything sports (particularly college sports) seems to earn offenders a second chance every time. The fervent love of college sports, the money that is funneled into the programs (both in terms of school budgets and donor/booster funds), the outlandish salaries of program directors (I work at a major university, and our football coach's salary is second only to the president of the university)...and all this in a time when the US is falling further and further down the ladder of education, when poverty and crime are up while graduates in life and other sciences are almost disappearing. There are blinders on in a large part of the country, blinders that seem to have a motto along the lines of "Only God is God, but sports will do in a pinch" written on the inside.

These kids are just products of a culture that tells them, both in words and actions, that sports are all, and even if you don't play, being a hard-core fan is enough to make you a part of the tapestry. I'm not slamming sports fans exactly; on the contrary, I root fervently for my state's teams when they play in finals or series leading to finals (I can't be arsed otherwise). What I'm slamming is the crossed wires of a society that tells us the value of a men hitting each other for our entertainment is greater than the value of protecting our children.

I hate to trot out a cliche, but wasn't this how Rome was in the last days before its fall? Vomitoriums = binge drinking frat parties. Gladitorial arenas = sports stadiums. And corruption, child abuse and ignorance? Same song, different verse. Nero's fiddle of the past is the flipped cars of today.

Speaking of which, when are we finally going to swallow our pride and admit that Hitler was actually one hell of a painter?

I hate to trot out a cliche

And yet...

I freely admit I: Hate professional sport; Hate football; Hate college football; Believe that most university teams are all about The Money Wiener and how to keep the big bucks flowing through it uninterrupted.

I also have consistently insisted that I don't care about entertainers except that they entertain.

I stand by all my football-related loathing, but I am having to rethink my stance on entertainers.

As a former PR professional for more than 20 years I have to wonder, why are they not announcing that they are sitting out the rest of the football season in a demonstration of remorse, and in order to get their own filthy house in order? Why? Why are they not in sackcloth and ashes begging for forgiveness? Why are they thinking about Saturday's game? WHY? It's a football. These were innocent lives. Football. Lives. Get some perspective then sit sown you heathens and shut up!

I watched my church cover up the most heinous crime ..ever, really. Ever. Then my parish sent me a letter asking for money to pay its legal bills to pay off the lawsuits. I'm still a catholic so what the hell do I even know.

Did these people learn nothing from the Church's filthy crimes and the subsequent mishandling?

Why am I so angry right now? I'm not sure. I feel like crying. I think I am still really f#cked up about the Church.

But my God...it's a football game. Get your collective head out of your asses.

And yet...

Posted by: Pete at November 10, 2011 2:25 PM

Thank you for that thoughtful and stunning contribution. You've effectively rendered my entire statement null and void by pointing out that I did something I indicated I hate to do. Well played, sir, well played.

Is Paterno a patsy, and did the Trustees take advantage of this opportunity to get rid of him (after they had apparently tried to pressure him into retirement before)? Maybe.

Ultimately, though, this is the "Tough Shit Rule". Presidents and CEOs have known this for a while - it doesn't matter if you were directly responsible of wrongdoing. This happened on your shift. You were at the helm when everything went to pot. You ARE responsible.

Furthermore, I'm not sure you can argue that Paterno isn't directly culpable in this case. The GA comes to you about one of your staff members possibly doing some unspeakable shit and you pass it on to your superior as "sounds like some horseplay was going on"? Really?

I mean, I get the cognative dissonance, thing. I really do. I wouldn't want to think badly about someone I thought I knew well (or not, I have no idea how well he knew the slimeball in question). But when something that big drops into your lap, don't you at least feel compelled to ask some questions? find out some things?

Passing it on to the AD is probably the by-the-book thing to do, but it also abdicates leadership in a position you've held long enough to become an institution. So I think the best we can say about Coach Paterno is, he was a good football coach, but he sure was lacking in some critical leadership areas.

I think that the Trustees are realizing a crucial reality that not many people are picking up on yet - certainly not the ESPN douchenozzles that are making Paterno be the story here. This heinous crime isn't just hurting the football program or the school's reputation. This is a potentially lethal blow to the University itself. It requires a response that is sufficient to save the life of the institution. Sometimes, saving the body requires some amputations.

Thank you for that thoughtful and stunning contribution. You've effectively rendered my entire statement null and void by pointing out that I did something I indicated I hate to do.

Jesus, lighten up. If you "hate to trot out" a slightly modified version of the same paranoid agitprop that's been around since the Spanish-American War, don't trot it out.

I don't think your comments about sports culture are off, by the way, just the comparison.

I think cancelling the game, while not uncalled for, isn't absolutely necessary, at least as long as Paterno and McQueary are not involved in it. I seriously doubt the entire coaching staff didn't turn a blind eye in some way to this as well, but someone needs to coach the team if they do play.

I have a feeling that the guilt here is going to be far reaching, but cancelling games will likely make the players, of which there are many more than coaches, feel that guilt when they ought to be left out of it entirely. Then again, I'm not sure how I could watch the game and really root for the team. I'll probably watch at first, but the first time a "We love JoePa!" chant breaks out (and it almost certainly will) I'm turning that shit off.

Hopefully we'll have a chance to see if the students were rioting out of a real sense of values or out of pain, frustration, and denial. The whole coaching staff needs to be cleaned out and much of the university administration as well. If/when that happens, we'll see if the student body still reacts in such a disgraceful manner. If it does or if these hypothetical firings and resignings don't take place, I think there needs to be serious consideration of disbanding the football team altogether, because clearly Penn State will need to live without football for a while so they can be reminded that it isn't everything.

In the meantime, let the kids who have nothing to do with it (the football players, not the asshole rioters) play out their games. Maybe donate the profits to a child abuse charity or something, as a gesture that says "This isn't about the money, it's about making sure we don't punish the wrong people."

And seriously, McQueary still has his job? Are you fucking KIDDING ME, people? If you're out for blood, balls to the fucking wall. That is criminal.

"You gotta take a side! You molest a child, you beat a child, you're not on my side! If you see me coming, you better run, because I am gonna lay you the fuck down! Easy!"

-Gone Baby Gone

I have forgiven a lot of things in my life. I forgave Courtney in the sixth grade when she ostracized me from my friends, and I spent lunch in the girl's bathroom because I didn't want to be shunned in front of the whole cafeteria. I forgave Shane in college the time he got drunk and pulled a gun on me because he had PTSD from serving in Iraq and never got over it. I forgave guys that cheated on me, bosses that made my life hell, and friendships that were never repaired again.

I have no forgiveness in my heart for anyone that hurts a child. I am not a mother, I have no children; natural or adopted or foster. But I have the dubious distinction of being from Boston, and in 2000 being part of the beginning of the Catholic Church sexual abuse crisis. My uncle was the first person to bring charges against the Archdiocese of Boston for being sodomized when he was nine years old at St. Thomas Church in Peabody, Mass. His rapist was later found to have abused more children before his death. My uncle's charges snowballed into more victims coming forward, which led to more cases being opened in Boston, and Cardinal Law having to step down when it was found he transferred over 50 priests, knowing they had raped and molested children. The current pope gave him a job in the Vatican where he is today. He performed the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II.

I was saturated for years in that culture of being in protests, news conferences, meeting victims, being in support groups, and every day for a year (until it snowballed so far it reached across the country and swung around to Europe) of opening the newspaper and reading about another priest or deacon or cleric that had been arrested. I knew whole families where each child had been molested by a different priest. My swimming instructor at the town YMCA who also taught Sunday school was arrested and charged with rape of over 100 children. They found hundreds of hours of videotape of the assaults and notebooks where he detailed which kids he enjoyed the most. Two priests from my Catholic high school that were my track coaches were arrested. My confirmation teacher. My priest that did my first communion. The one from Bible camp. I did my college thesis on the scandal and found that from 1940-1960 only, more than 10,000 children were raped or molested by Catholic clergy in the United States. They now agree the number is too low.

I do not attend church. Not even for weddings or funerals. I do not plan to attend church when I get married, nor allow my children to attend. I am thirty and I don't know if I believe in God (which I am okay with.) I remember people insinuating that if we had "watched our children more carefully" it wouldn't have happened, or only "gay clergy" were doing these things. I do not believe evil is only found in religion, nor only perpetrated by men, nor do I believe every person is evil or out to hurt kids.

But I do believe we deify people. The ones that wear a badge, or hoist a trophy over their head or lead a classroom or perform a wedding. I am the most liberal person you will ever meet. I am non-violent, anti-war, pro-immigration, pro-choice, and help out as much as I can with Occupy Wall Street. But I have no place in my heart for anyone that hurts kids. I have three degrees and work in a hospital. I know it's a mental and medical condition usually brought on by various factors including previous abuse. That doesn't matter to me.

Like Ed Harris says in Gone Baby Gone when he admits to planting evidence so a child abuser goes to jail, each of us must take a side. I don't care that Joe Paterno won college games. I don't care that the priest supposedly stands in the place of God. I don't care if the grad student has a crush on her professor and wants to please him or if the policeman wears a shiny badge and carries a gun. And I know it must be devastating when you find out your friend or partner or family member is capable of something so heinous, because it reminds us how human we all are. How people can be capable of anything, and keep secrets in our hearts.

If you hurt a child and I know about it, I will bury you. With every fact, every law on the books and with every ounce of muscle I can get in my corner. It's not legal, it's not PC, it's not what a "hippie liberal" does and I don't care. I will move heaven and earth to do the right thing, and like Paulie said at the end of Goodfellas..."now I have to turn my back on you." This isn't about ignoring kickbacks or shoplifting or drug abuse. It's about a fully formed adult human looking inside themselves and saving the emotional and physical well-being of a weaker, unformed human. Each time you say nothing or don't call the police or don't step in, that child dies inside.

I'm okay with there not being a God. I've lived a good life and been a decent person and had a good time. But if there is, and I get wherever I'm going after this life...how do I look him/her/it in the face and admit that I did nothing to save a child? Because I was too scared or didn't think it was my problem or didn't want to believe that another human was capable of such monstrosity? I want to tell the Penn State protesters that. I want them to understand the MAGNITUDE of that. The magnitude of being human and caring enough to do what's right and speak up over another human's violation. And I want to know why in their rage they never turned over a newstruck for that 10 year old kid in the shower.

Spanier was allowed to resign. He should have been fired.

This is one of the more thoughtful articles I've read since the debacle came out. It was on ESPN.com.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7208581/rick-reilly-penn-state-scandal

If anyone has the stomach for it, watch the trailer to this documentary. I own it and it's very informative. This is what happens when the buck gets passed, and people don't speak up.

Deliver Us From Evil documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scW90Q6Z_OM

beet salad,

OK, I get what you're saying and I can't disagree. Symbolically it was probably the right thing to do, firing Spanier instead of allowing him to resign, but we all know that for all intents and purposes, he was fired. That's enough for me, though I don't really have a personal stake in it aside from seeing people I used to respect act so cowardly and heinously.

And FYI, apparently (yeah, I just read this today, too) it was made public in a couple of small papers about 6 months ago (hat tip to The Superficial). So Penn State has known about this shit a lot longer than most of us. I think everyone in that school with any authority at all over the sports program should lose their jobs today. Won't happen, but it should.

With a side of this:
http://therumpus.net/2011/11/the-spirit-of-violent-lamentation/

God damn, scorzi.

The quote I've been posting all day - "Evil thrives when good men do nothing."

Jerry Sandusky's name keeps getting lost, I think, because there is no debate to be had about what he did. That man is going to jail for the rest of his life, and I wish he had some more life to live than he does, because his prison stay will likely be a short one. (Because he's old, not because I think he'll get paroled.) Actually it probably won't matter. I hear they don't take too kindly to child molesters, even in prison. It'll probably be even shorter than I assumed.

With Paterno, there is some debate about what action is appropriate and he is also the biggest figure involved. In a power struggle between Joe Paterno and Graham Spanier, Joe would win hands down. The main fucking research library at Penn State is named for him, because he's the one who donated the money to build. (Maybe not the library specifically, but he certainly has donated millions of dollars to the school and helped to make it a better academic institution beyond his responsibilities as football coach.) They aren't forcing Joe to do anything there that he doesn't want to do. Well until now, because they have the ammunition to do so.

I try to make sure to mention Jerry Sandusky every time I talk about this. I actually failed to do that in my previous comment. For certain Sandusky is the real monster here, and Paterno is merely someone who cowardly looked away. But he's getting exactly what he deserves right now. We all expected better of Joe. He was supposed to be the exception to the powerful and wealthy people Slash was mentioning earlier. When he had a real chance to prove it, he failed. That's why he's become the story here.

Being in Philly this is all that is being talked about. People have been arguing different points of view and I always manage to shut them down with two questions:
Would you be saying the same thing if he was raping a 10 yr old little girl?
When is child rape ever a non reportable crime?

The rage I feel for the cowards who did nothing I have never felt before, and then the utter sadness that creaps into my hurt when I think about what that child must have felt when he realized that "help" had turned its cowardly back and ran away is crippling.

All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men (or women) to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

Truer words never spoken.

I was eleven years old when I was first faced with the cold, hard reality of an unnatural death. A boy two years older than me in my Scout Troop woke up that December morning, told his parents he wasn't feeling well and didn't want to go to school.

Later, his older brother decided to go home for lunch to check up on him. When he got to the house he found his little brother dead. He had shot himself.

I wasn't terribly close to him. But we had gotten along and I had participated in activities with both boys. They were both good folks in my book. I went to his wake. I looked upon him in his coffin, dressed immaculately in his Scout uniform.

I'm 36 years old. Three of my grandparents have passed in the last five years at ages 68, 99 and 102. They all led complete and I like to think happy lives.

That kid in my Scout troop did not. He was thirteen years old when he decided to take his life.

As my time with the troop evolved I began to suspect what was behind it. In one or two days some boys were receiving awards that others spent weeks earning. These short evaluation sessions always took place at an Assistant Scoutmaster's house - not in a structured training environment where most of us earned them. Some Assistant Scoutmasters liked to spend too much time alone in the campsite with a single boy. Our Scoutmaster was fond of exposing himself or encouraging boys to go skinny dipping - where he would take photos - or to shower with him.

I don't know why I was never abused. Perhaps because I'm too alert. Perhaps because I'm too stubborn. Perhaps because I don't suffer being slighted. Whatever the reason, I was never so much as touched.

Dozens of boys associated with that troop were not so fortunate, however. Four more committed suicide between 1990 and 1998. The Assistant Scoutmaster I most suspected, the one I frequently accused of abuse, killed himself in 1994 rather than face his subpoena. The Scoutmaster himself followed suit four years later when the police raided his home and confiscated boxes of photographs and all of his computers.

The local Scouting organization failed those boys. Plain and simple. That Scoutmaster was put on a pedestal for his service in WWII and his time as a P.O.W. They were convinced that a hero of his caliber was incapable of such things. They were convinced that no war hero would cultivate a self-protecting network of child molesters. Boys who spoke up, whether they had been abused or witnesses, were ignored and retribution, in many forms, followed.

In my opinion Mr. Paterno, like my local Scouting organization, had a responsibility to protect those children when they were under the supervision of his staff. He may not be complicit in the acts which occurred, but it appears, at the very least, he did not do everything within his power to look out for the best interest of his charges. He may be a great and honest man. But he did fail in his duties as head-coach and supervisor of his assistant coaches. Likewise his supervisor, the athletic director at the time as well as the provost and university president. Some measure of punishment certainly seems merited and this seems appropriate.

As for Mr. Sandusky, if the accusations are legitimate and he truly is guilty, I hope he faces a lengthy and horrible punishment like those he visited upon these children. There's no question, in my mind, that someone who abuses their power and subsequently a child placed in their trust, deserves an equal measure of abuse him or herself.

@Whorish Mouth, you took the words out of my (whorish?) mouth. Not only does this coward still have a job, but I haven't heard a damn thing in the media calling for his firing.

"Polanski had every reason to flee the US."

Well, not really - the typical remedy is to appeal if you believe you've been treated unfairly under the system, but I digress. Fleeing is one thing. Seeking to elude the consequences of said fleeing is another. But, again, I digress.

As to Paterno, the guy has children and grandchildren. Surely, he'd have pursued anybody he suspected of "horseplay" with his own kin to the fullest extent of the law. And, surely, law enforcement officials would've listened pretty damned carefully to Joe Paternot. Apparently, however, when it's just some ten-year-old (TEN) troubled kid, it can be swept under the rug or rationalized. That's what really freaks me out here - Sandusky targeted kids he knew nobody would believe or care about. And Paterno let him.

Am I the only person that has really stopped being shocked anymore? The world has always, always, been this way. The upper class of society has wealth and power, and they can literally do absolutely whatever they want. Kelsey Grammar could walk into your living room as you read this, he could then proceed to molest and then kill you. He would most likely never even go to trial for it. If he did, he'd get off. If he didn't get off, he'd do two weeks and be out.
I don't care if you live in a democracy, or a monarchy, or a dictatorship. It's all the same thing. Wealth = power = invulnerability. Congressmen and women do illegal shit all the time. The worst thing that will happen? They lose their jobs and become lobbyists. That's why we forgive some celebrities. Because They are wealthy and they'd get away with it no matter what. Did Phil Spectre shoot his girlfriend in the face? Yeah. He also wrote be my baby. I've listened to that song 1000 times, and I've never met her. Does he deserve to go to jail? Yeah. Will I stop listening to Do Ran Ran? No chance in hell. Elizabeth Bathory tortured people and Roman Polanksi rapes them, and there's not a damn thing you or I can do about either one. Celebrity means power, and power warps the mind. All the people that everyone chooses to idolize are most likely all monsters down to the last one. They have the ability to be so without repurcussion. I'm less worried by the fact that people haven't pulled Polanski out of his house and beaten him to death than I am that people watch Jersey shore every week. Because I will bet you every last dollar I own that every guy on that show has or will rape someone before their life is over. And noone cares enough to stop giving them money. Would I like to see Roman Polanksi do time for his crimes? Yeah. But we all know it's not gonna happen. And many many more people just like him will walk in his footsteps.

That fact makes me so fucking sad, that I have trouble even caring about the individual occurences anymore.

And good questions, Courtney. This thread strayed away from your more fundamental questions about forgiveness to focus on the Paterno situation. Paterno seems almost tangential to me as far as the question of forgiveness goes, because it seems to me that many of the people supporting him haven't even fully realized the potential scope of what Paterno did wrong or that he did anything wrong at all. (Canning him immediately was the right thing in my opinion.)

As I've said here before, with some extreme exceptions, I tend to stay away from these personal evaluations of the celebs. Not knowing any of them personally, I don't even see my "forgiveness" as being terribly relevant in the first place. I suppose it is a big deal to the wrongdoers as far as consumption of their products go, but I guess I've never attached much value to that, positive or negative. They're all flawed human beings just like the rest of us, and forgiveness - whenever it feels right and natural for the parties that were wronged - is a noble, cathartic thing. I'm not going to dictate a timetable for anyone on that, whether we're talking about some distant fan or a more direct victim.

Bearing all that in mind, the Polanski thing is more a question of justice than forgiveness, I think.

Whenever something like this happens, I think of my own connection to a similar fallen icon, and I think of Chris Benoit.

For those not as in love with Pro Wrestling as I am, Chris Benoit was, pound-for-pound, the best in-ring pro wrestler ever. EVER. He wasn't as flashly as Shawn Michaels, he didn't have the mic skills of the Rock, he couldn't see merchandise like a Chris Jericho or Stone Cold Steve Austin, nor did he intimidate people with his sheer presence like the Ultimate Warrior or the Undertaker. But when he got in that ring, where it really matters, the man was untouchable. Every move was so sharp, every attack was so believable, and he sold every blow his opponent made. He was just so damn good in the ring, it didn't matter that he couldn't verablly sell a story for shit, or that he had such an quirky, unappealing physique. Year after year, the man worked his ass off for our entertainment, although he never got the big push to the World Championship that all the smarks(read: "smart" wrestling fans) wanted to see.

Until finally, it happen. Wrestlemania 20(the Super Bowl of pro wrestling, really), main event against two of the biggest stars in the industry HHH and Shawn Michaels, for the grandest prize of them all. Its an INCREDIBLE match, so back and forth, but I just didn't believe Benoit could do it.

But he did. Chris Benoit beat HHH in the middle of the ring to win the biggest prize in the industry, on the biggest stage of the year. I had never been so happy for an athlete in my life.

So imagine my surprise when, three years later, the man is found dead, hung himself in his own house. My wrestling hero, my favorite in a sea of favorites, was dead.

Now imagine my shock and confusion when I found out he had murdered his wife and young son just two days prior to killing himself.

Yeah.

There's been explanations. They say all the constant headshots he took over the years gave him the brain similar to an 80 year old man on Alzheimers. They say it was steroid abuse, with a combination of a failing marriage. But at the end of the day, a man murdered his wife and little boy in cold blood. Its a tragic, heinous, indefendable act.

And yet, to this day, I will still watch old Benoit videos, tainted that they are, and I can still admire the complete mastery of his craft. I can separate the art from the artist. What Chris did...how do you really defend that? I can't. And yet...I still feel joy from seeing him standing triumphant at Wrestlemania 20. I'm a fan of Chris Benoit, the wrestler, despite the disgusting acts of Chris Benoit, the man.

I'm not here to argue for or against Joe Paterno. There's a thousand blogs and comments and threads I've been through already, misguided attempts at level-headedness and faith and right and wrong on both sides of the debate.

But when it comes to defend a thing you enjoy, even with the new knowledge that its tainted...I neither condone nor do I condemn. As a fan of the work of Chris Beonit I...

...I understand.

This is not only putting a stain Paterno's image. This rioting makes it look like the school body supports child rapists. I can't even. Just the thought of those children being violated like that and people knew about it and looked the other way is flabbergasting to me.

Everyone involved needs to be done away with. When they stop rioting what will be the explainations? They were defending the legacy of a protector of a pedophile? What could it be?

As for Polanski, the last time I talked about that turd was with the Johnny Depp rape comment. I cannot understand the people who defend him and work with him. These are the same people that have children and I keep wondering if they'd leave them alone in a room with such a 'talented director'

First of all, let me start by saying that I am both a huge football fan as well as a PSU graduate. I am also capable of setting those facts aside in the interest of seeing the right things done. Unfortunately, in this case, at this point in time, I feel it is far too late for the right things to be done. That point passed in March of 2002 when McQueary didn’t stop the rape in progress and call the cops, or in the next few days when anybody else above him called the cops. It seems that the victims have all but been forgotten about in the local news and on BSPN.

I fully support the board’s decision to fire JoePa and Spanier. Some people have opined that PSU grads are not supportive of this decision, I can assure you that my friends that also went there feel the same way that I do. I also cannot believe that McQueary still has a job there. Everyone who is on that staff who knew about these allegations AND DID NOTHING ABOUT THEM OR TO FOLLOW UP should be gone, but at the same time, I do not believe that the current athletes there should be punished and their hard work thrown away for things that happened when they were in fifth grade or so. The students that rioted last night, however, do need to grow the fuck up.

As for the school of thought that Sandusky will have a short shelf life in prison, I am starting to think that is a much-exaggerated aspect of penal lore. There was a guy who was a few years older than me in high school. His dad was the asshole gym teacher; think of Mr. Buzzcut from Beavis and Butthead but with less personality. The son, after getting kicked out of a prestigious university for cheating became a local cop. He was later indicted for many horrible abuses of power while in this position involving extortion of sex from young girls. Just google “officer rob marysville pa”; the details can be found there. I would think an ex-cop in jail on child-molesting charges would be at the bottom of the prison food chain. But if nobody has stuck a sharpened spoon in that dude’s throat yet then I don’t know horrible Sandouchebags fate will be.

And holy shit lubeg, that was a fucked up story. I am glad you came out of it OK but feel sorry for the boys that didn’t.

I'm heartbroken over the whole thing. My heart goes out to the victims. But my blood boils when I realize that JoePa was sacked and yet Spanier was allowed to resign and Curley and Schultz - the two on trial for perjury because they LIED UNDER OATH about what happened to those poor boys - neither of them were fired! Curley went on administrative (read: PAID) leave and Schultz just stepped back into retirement. If you're going to crucify anyone (besides the horrible monster Sandusky), it should be those two - they should have been fired before JoePa was.

Who here is still a fan of Michael Jackson? I gotta be honest, I still sing along when anything off of Thriller comes on. Then I hate myself.

Y'all aren't talking about forgiveness. You are talking about rationalization. Rationalization is letting the cool kids off the hook to be liked by them, or at least by the president of their fan club. This is "Heathers", played out in real life, for Godtopus' sake.

Or rationalization is letting it go because "the institution" is to valuable. But valuable how, and to whom? If you benefit from an institution that survives by burying child-molestation, that's, that's ... that's something worse than blood money. It's on you.

The question is really two "Why do we excuse?" and "Why do we forgive?"

Well, we excuse because when our idols are besmirched it's we who look dirty. When our "team" is besmirched we look like marks. Either way, when we excuse it's all about us being small without them to make us big.

We forgive, sometimes, where there is contrition, and we can find in ourselves the true sense that "there could have gone I."

There's a lot of good material on forgiveness in Christian doctrine. You don't have to send all your money to Fundamentally Oral Bill, get off on Mel Gibson's torture porn, or even believe in the Sky Bully that Whedon so strenuously rejects to take some wisdom from thinkers who were also Christian. Start maybe with C. S. Lewis.

Our stupefyingly amazing penchant for forgiveness is why I always say:

Never never never never never bet against the comeback.

Unless the comebacker is 84 years old.

And even then I wouldn't bet against JoePa doing "Saturday Night Live."

This shouldn't even be a debate. A little boy was sodomized and another adult witness it yet did nothing. Did he not even try to get the boy away from the man? What could go through someone's head to not immediately call the police? Why would you go to school officals after witnessing a rape? Why? These people covered up this act and others for years and people are mad that and old man lost his job just because he was a winning coach? What about those little boys and the potential that was stolen from them by the trauma one made did, and the rest of the grown men covered up? It's despicable and shameful and all those so called educated individuals that are rioting need to hope and pray they are never ever ever sexually victimized. Horrid people.

I can't understand the moral compass of this situation. What do the people who are rioting stand for? And if they are the future, I am so, so scared.

Goodnight cause I just can't talk about this anymore.

@ Candy: this is what flabbergasts me about this whole brouhaha. Where is the moral compass? Because if I find a grown man sodomizing a 10 year old in a semi-public shower you bet your ass I'm dialing 911 and the police on my cell a nanosecond after I get the child away from the adult-and probably inflict some serious damage on the adult while doing so. There is not a doubt in my mind about this. Also, how is this taking place in a really public place. It makes me thing this was known but not acknowledged that Sandusky felt confident enough to bring a child into what seems like an awfully public environment and do what he did. I think this is the tip of one disgusting, evil iceberg. I also think anyone even remotely involved with covering this up should be held accountable.

Well, the OSU rioting yahoos are of a piece with the failure to report, the decade or so of "pocket vetos", the lazy investigation, and so on.

When you let institutions hold your morals for you, those muscles get weak. Train people to find identity in a group, like OSU, and they don't have an identity without it. Teach them that the system will take care of things and they do the homework the system prescribes, without looking at the results.

It's a hard, hard thing to remember that an institution works for us, as individuals, not the other way around, when you've been channeled, trained, and groupified for 12, 16 or more years.

That's how this kind of thing happens - not the predators, but allowing the ongoing predation. (Predators and defectives happen. The world is an imperfect place. Screws fall out all the time.) No individuals. Nobody with a spine of their very own. Nobody who says, "Well this is my problem, because I'm here."

Sheeple are easy when things go right and when things go bad. Individuals, on the other hand, are prickly and difficult, but far better to have on hand when something evil shows up.

This is going to be a long comment, please feel free to skip on past it.

I have a nephew. He's seven. Oh, excuse me, seven and a HALF. He is tall for his age. He has a very dry sense of humor but I don't think he realizes it. He just says very matter of fact things and they are hilarious. He was born premature when his drugged-out, smoker mom got drunk and then got in a car wreck. He was one of those peanut babies, smaller than my hand, but somehow being preemie hasn't affected him one bit. For Halloween last year he wanted to be a vampire but he had all his vampires mixed up so he was a sparkly Dracula. He wrote a letter to, I don't know, the Great Pumpkin, and he misspelled "send blood" as "sid blud." That was his vampire name, obvs.

He is shockingly sensitive, just like his aunt. He cries when he hears Adele's Someone Like You. He doesn't know what that song means but, "...the music makes me sad." He wants "one of those little music things...you push this button and the music plays" for Christmas. If you sneeze, he gives "bless yous." He is very pretty. And rather shy. He looks like little Daniel Radcliffe in the first Harry Potter. Can you see him?

He has a fantastic imagination. Just like I do. And god help me and my sensitive self because I can see what that monster did to those boys. I am disgusted and horrified and want to cry and kill, and wish I could just put my fingers in my ears and go, "LALALALALAA" until it all goes away because just thinking of that little boy, and thinking that he was wishing someone would stop what was happening, and then seeing someone and that someone looked that child in the eye and. Walked. Away. kills me. (As if my feelings even matter but I have them.) And then I think of my nephew and what if that happened to him. To take a child's innocence and trust and to corrupt it? To corrupt and abuse a child's body?

Every single one of the monsters involved in this fucking nightmare has a nephew or grandson or son or brother, or niece or sister or granddaughter, etc. Shame on the lot. I don't believe in hell but if it exists, I truly hope it is as Dante wrote and and Goya and Bosch painted. And that the monsters at Penn State enjoy their time there because surely that is where they are headed.

And because this is a movie website:

"So, what now?"

"What now? Let me tell you what now. I'ma call a couple of hard, pipe-hittin' niggas to go to work on homes here with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch. You hear me talkin' hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass....Mr. Soon-To-Be-Living-The-Rest-Of-His-Short-Ass-Life-In-Agonizing-Pain rapist...."

So, no. No forgiveness. Fuck you. Rot in jail and then rot in hell.

I also live in the Philadelphia area, and the coverage surrounding this has been monumental. I certainly don't think "JoePa" behaved the way I would have, but I question whether it is correct to automatically jump to the conclusion that he should be punished.
As far as I can tell, he did not physically witness any of the abuse. He was told of something secondhand. We don't know how it was phrased by McQueary. Perhaps he did out and out say he witnessed a rape, and then in that case I think Paterno deserved to be fired. But who knows how McQueary phrased it. He may have embellished the truth, likely to save himself from suffering the repercussions of the fact that he had WITNESSED A RAPE and failed to report it to the authorities. Paterno took it to his supervisors, as I think any of us have the expectation that they would act in the best interest of the children. I'm not saying Paterno did all that he could, which he admitted himself, but many are acting as if he did nothing at all, which is simply not true. He reported what he had heard second hand to his athletic director. It was the director's place to look into the incident, and their decision to sweep it under the rug. I personally would have called the police immediately, but I don't think it's fair to act as if the man did nothing - he obviously did what he thought was right at the time, and now in light of more concrete evidence, realizes it was not right. I think the higher ups should have been fired before any action was taken against him. It is unfortunate that his association as the "face" of PSU had him fired before people who failed to act at all, and even those who physically witnessed the rape. I don't feel that even remotely begins to give justice to the children who suffered horribly at the hands of Sandusky.

ninetwenteetoo:

I work at a major hospital and have worked at universities. When you start jobs at both, they give you a packet of about 10 pages listing every single job that by national law states you have to report anything relating to sexual harrassment, rape, child abuse or assault. Even if it's secondhand, thirdhand, or an INKLING of anything. By law whatever McQuerty told him, Paterno should have gone to the police (not the dean, not the head of alumni or the head of athletics, THE POLICE OF PENNSYLVANIA) and told them everything he knew. EVERY SINGLE PERSON INVOLVED IN THIS SHOULD BE GOING DOWN FOR IT. So what if it was blown out of proportion? Wouldn't it have been better to err on the side of caution and find out later it was a misunderstanding then to do nothing or halfass it so the abuse kept happening? It does not matter how unsure you are. ANY information you hear about child abuse, you report it. Period. And his job states that. The firing is the right thing. He can play the martyr all he wants, but if this was his child he'd be singing a different tune. Fuck him and fuck the rest of the department. Hope all the donations dry up and people are ashamed to be associated with you.

Scorzi - I TOTALLY agree, I would have personally called the police right away. I'm not familiar with what kind of packets he received, so obviously if that is true then he deserved to be fired. I don't really have a problem with him being fired for his inaction, so I'm sorry if I suggested that. What I have a problem with is two things:
1. the fact that he was fired while other people involved in it are still working there. I agree with you that they ALL need to go. I don't think he should be singled out over others.
2. The "he did nothing" argument. He DID something. It was not what I would have done, and it wasn't the right thing to do, but he didn't simply ignore it. His failure to do more cost him his job, and that's fair. But I don't think it's fair to state that he was guilty of inaction. He didn't do right by those kids, and that is inexcusable. But he did more for them than people who chose to ignore it, and let the program continue. At least he attempted to alert someone that allegations had been brought forward. Those people chose to ignore that entirely, and that truly sickens me.

In many places it's as simple as this: if you have information that a minor child *might* be in physical, emotional, or sexual danger and you do not report it you have committed a crime.

Initially these types of laws only applied to teachers, but honest to godtopus, it should apply to everyone. Open your damned mouth and say something.

Making the call to Child and Family Services when I thought one of my students was being physically abused was terrifying, but I did it. Because that student and all the ones like her deserve to be protected. PERIOD.

So, no forgiveness for these men. NONE. They work in educational facilities. I wouldn't piss on them in hell.

Holy shit scorzi your comment didn't make me cry (like I normally do), it make me mad. Blood boiling, throwing things mad.

As for the original question, why do we forgive, my personal response is kind of simple. No one who knows me would ever call me a forgiving person. I don't forgive or forget easily or often, because I truly believe you have to earn it. If you forgive before a person has a chance to earn that forgiveness, they really haven't met the full consequences of their actions and they're going to repeat their actions. It also doesn't give the victim time to process. Can you imagine how it must feel for this child to watch an entire community rally around the people who protected his rapist? This has been happening for too long and in too many communities.

Forgiveness should be for people who have earned it, and some crimes are just so big that it is not possible. At the point where you've irreversibly fucked up someone's life, you can't expect forgiveness and maybe earning it shouldn't be your first concern. Maybe just maybe that person's well being should come before your own need to be forgiven. But I suppose that if these guys were concerned for the well-being of another person none of this would have happened anyways.