Pajiba

Agreed. I'd love to say goodbye to those.

Without giving it much thought:

Frances McDormand

Felicity Huffman

Though I'd jump both of them in a heartbeat.

"When it comes down to it, women in entertainment are very rarely successful if they are genuinely unattractive. Whoever the female analogue is to Steve Buscemi, she’s not in TV or in movies."

Kathy Bates

I quite agree, it's difficult to come up with women for this list (especially as a woman). Yesterday I was thinking maybe Amy Poehler, but I don't even know if boys find her attractive outside the blonde hair. What about Debi Mazar? I can't decide if she's attractive either, though she has the most striking eyes.

I'm going to have to disagree with Frances McDormand, Felicity Huffman and Kathy Bates as being unattractive. Aging, but most definitely still attractive women for their respective age groups.

The ugly-hot woman in Hollywood is a myth

Hillary Swank.

and yet we are supposed to be convinced that Sarah Jessica Parker is beautiful.

Judy Greer is the "awkward slut friend" and Parker is the girl that every guy would give his left nut to be with. WHAT THE HELL?!?!?

Allison Janney, Jane Kazmarek, Amy Poehler, Debi Mazar

Not gonna lose my temper..........Not gonna lose my temper.....

Imma jump on the Bates defender bandwagon. It's already been said, but being plump doesn't make you ugly. She has a great face and a lot of sass. I'd rather hang with Kathy Bates than Brooklyn Decker any day. At least we could have a human conversation.

Oh, I'M not saying they're ugly by any means (well ... Kathy Bates doesn't do anything for me), just saying they're probably what constitutes the bottom of the barrel by H'wood standards. Huffman, convincingly, played a man, after all, and McDormand seems to keep getting work because of who she's married to.

Plain(er), maybe, is a better word for them than ugly. If you saw them on the street and they weren't celebs, you wouldn't look twice.

"Tyra often chooses women whose faces are arranged in arresting and striking ways, people with aggressive bone structure or far-set eyes."

Now this is an interesting point I've touched on before. It seems like the days of the supermodel who's really pretty (Kathy Ireland, Elle, Christie etc.) are almost gone for good (making an exception for Brooklyn Decker), replaced by models who supposedly look exotic or "interesting" (and who never seem to smile). I don't get Gisele, for instance, or many of the VS models with their hard angular faces.

But there's a lot I don't get, so ...

Okay, you're redeemed for hating on Hocus Pocus yesterday.

Coincidentally, I'd bone Kathy Najimy, any day.

Come on people. You can't just pick an older lady and use her as an example of ugly-hot. Allison Janney? Christine Baranski? No freaking way. They are seriously hot-hot for their age group.

for their age group

Uh.....okay, I gotta leave

I think if you look at the list of actresses people are suggesting - Kaczmarek, Janney, Parker, Mazar, Swank - you're still falling into the "incredibly toned" category.

I actually think Zellweger as Bridget Jones was just right. She had just enough jiggle to undermine a woman's confidence and her frump was mostly due to not dressing well and having mussed hair. She looked average in a world where she thought she had to look amazing, which was the point.

I finally got around to reading Bridget Jones's Diary, and I agree with Sara Tonin. Bridget wasn't supposed to be ugly so much as she was just not quite "classic" hot enough to be really insecure, which made Mark Darcy going for her just as she was such a big deal.

The French have a term for what I think we're referring to, men or women, though it's usually used for women: jolie-laide. It's usually translated as "pretty-ugly." But generally, they mean someone whose features you wouldn't think would allow them to be beautiful, but they are anyway. I can't think of anyone, other than Barbra Streisand (and maybe Sarah Jessica Parker--I met her once and she is amazingly attractive in person) who would fit that definition. But yeah, unusually beautiful women in Hollywood are about as rare as albinos.

@Captain Tuttle:

Newsradio! Clip is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7iU2HFUXaU

(I am striking, BTW.)

Over time, an actress can become "pleasing to the eye" because we enjoy her work on screen.

That's why there are no "ugly" actress.

I'm still a bit shocked at how pervasive the double-standard is in Hollywood where even the "ugly" women are quite attractive but we get Seth Fucking Rogen as a leading man.

The only truly not-attractive female I can think of on TV right now is Coach Beiste on Glee. But she is the only one I could even compare to someone like Dan Fogler or Jonah Hill, who are just truly unnatractive but have succesful careers. I like the Beiste character because she's genuinely not a beautiful woman on TV.

Other than her? No one.

Lynn Redgrave in Georgy Girl.

Britain tends to use more "ugly" actresses because they look more real in the parts they play. Unfortunately, none of them are names you'd recognize, but I recognize their faces over and over again. (Cue, most of the women in Calendar Girls, and half the extras in Dr. Who and Masterpiece Theater.)

I like to watch What Not To Wear (shutup) when they take a woman who thinks she's ugly and frumpy and show her that just wearing clothing that fits, a little makeup and a new hairstyle, and yes, they really are attractive. It also gives them confidence which triples their attractiveness.

I find most of the men on the ugly-hot list attractive. Not handsome necessarily, but Buscemi and Whitaker are the only ones that stick out as ugly. I love Buscemi so he's hot in my eyes though.

For women I would suggest SJP, Martha Plimpton, Linda Hunt, Joan Cusack, Amy Poehler, Sandra Berhard, Sandra Oh, Lili Taylor, Melissa Leo, Heather Matarazzo and Cameron Diaz. None of these women are hideous obviously, but take away their make-up artists, hair stylists and airbrushing and they are on about the same level as the guys on the list imo.

Not saying she belongs on an ugly list, but I don't think Tina Fey is anything special. She's attractive yes, but totally average. Apart from her scar she's not even interesting looking like the women above.

Chloe Sevigny is interesting. There's not many famous actresses that could be described as handsome rather than pretty, but she's one of them.

I'd also have to agree that maybe the one good thing about America's Next Top Model is that it does a lot to push unconventional beauty--at least when it comes to faces. There have been a lot of girls over the years that I've just thought were ugly, but Tyra managed to show that they took a good photograph.

Also, let's remember that thin doesn't necessarily mean beautiful or pretty or attractive.

And I thought of another not-beautiful-by-conventional-standards older woman: Phillys Smith from The Office. She looked really pretty in the wedding episode, but most of the time she isn't played up as being attractive. And it never matters on the show, which is pretty cool, I think.

I would never call her ugly, but Catherine O'Hara comes to mind as another successful actress that you could say is unconventionally pretty. I find her rather striking, in addition to being talented and hilarious.

>> The only truly not-attractive female I can think of on TV right now is Coach Beiste on Glee.

There's a student character on Glee named Lauren who was used in past episodes specifically as an unattractive girl (e.g., when Sue was trying to convince Rachel that she'd be an old maid). Now she's Puck's love interest, though I think part of the point there is getting a laugh out of the fact that the guy who could in theory get any girl has the hots for the "ugly fat girl" and has repeatedly gotten the brush-off.

There's something about Dot-Marie Jones (aka Coach Beiste) that makes me think of Betty Boop. I think it's her mouth and somewhat curly dark hair.

Bette Midler.

But we're skewing to my age range again.

I'm sorry, but Christine Baranski? I can see where someone might find her attractive or even hot (I sure as hell don't, but whatever), but beautiful? I don't think so. Even with all the plastic surgery and make-uop, the woman really does look like a drag queen, and not even a beautiful one. That woman was beat down with the ugly stick, though to her credit, she's been very successful regardless.

Sandra Barnhardt had this down pat around 1995.
Jennifer Coolidge, though her awkward sexiness is played for laughs. Whoopi Goldberg is not what you think of as ugly-hot but Ted Danson was tappin' that so obviously some people disagree.
I think Julia Roberts bizarrely large mouth probably makes her look weird in real life, can anyone confirm this?

I was going to tentatively suggest Charlotte Gainsbourg - her father wasn't the most attractive guy and her mother was a model - but if you've seen pictures of her mom she strikingly resembles her. Does the fact that I can't make up my mind qualify her?

I agree with the overall point of this piece. But by comparing with the list of ugly-hot men, I don't quite get it after all. Why are these men ugly? (Brody, Leguizamo, Cassel and Leung)?? If they are to be categorized as ugly-hot, why can't we do the same with Gyllenhaal and Jane Kazmarek? They are not classic hotties, but they sure have charisma - much like the before mentioned men!
Can someone explain the difference to me?

I heard people so many times talk smack about Lola Dueñas not being "hot" or "pretty". She is not only one of the best actors in the world, I'd do before you even have time to ask.

I always remember that, branded.

"She has a PONYTAIL!"

Good read.

And Tina Fey is hot.

Glad someone said it- I have always been amazed that truly unattractive men can be movie stars, but not women. Even Female Villains have to be gorgeous. We willfully tolerate Geoffrey Rush, our first and last truly homely female villian was the damn Wicked Witch of the West- Margaret atwater (or something)

one thing. I am 5'4" but I used to rock (and I mean ROCK) my Doc Marten/baby Doll dress combo- WITH blood red lipstick...

Wasn't trying to pander. No reason I can't be polite even though I'm pointing out some bullshit (I actually see that as kind of the spirit of the site).

But y'know, I do like him, so there's that.

Appwitch: I'd forgotten about Lauren, but she's another good example, too. She's definitely an unusual character that you almost never see in a high school setting.

I'm slightly surprised that two unattractive women are featured in Glee of all places.

What you're actually looking for is what the French call jolie-laide (meaning literally "pretty-ugly") used to refer to a woman who despite not being conventionally attractive exudes some sort of appeal. The Spanish actress Rossy De Palma is a prime example of this. You could say that Anjelica Huston, Bette Midler, La Streisand and Lady Gaga all fall into this category as well. Then again, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder,so is jolie-laide. As demonstrated in the above post, Hollywood has no clue about jolie-laide and thinks that glasses change everything. In fact, it is just about impossible to find a good example of jolie-laide among the current crop of starlets given Hollywood's obsession with conventional good looks and plastic surgery. But were I to go old Hollywood, I'd say that Bette Davis and Joan Crawford could be considered jolie-laide.

I hands down agree with Byrd. You can make almost ANY girl hot with a make over, because make up and a style do wonders.(as do plastic surgery and dental surgery if applied skillfully)

If you stripped many of those ladies of their gloss you'd get something a lot more recognizable. They prove this time and again in tabloids with candid make up free celeb shots and on daytime tv shows that do makeovers. It's much more difficult to apply makeup to a guy and get a different looking outcome because you can't do as much with makeup and get away with it. (unless you're doing drag and we know how impressive some of the incredible 'is she a man or a woman' guests of jerry springer can be)

I think we all know that there are people with unrealistic beauty standards out there, but you can't change their opinion anymore than you can force yourself to believe someone you find attractive is not.

I personally believe the issue isn't that these people are or are not attractive, but that we DEMAND a level of polish in our celebrities that is nigh impossible to maintain for average people.

@ suprasente:

brava. i agree 110%. and i say that as a lady. actually, i read your comment aloud to my boyfriend who is currently entrenched in the throes of a women's studies class that is driving him nothing less than short of berserk for all the rhetoric- and he agreed so positively that he kind of flung his dinner off his fork when he was saying 'YES that's exactly what i mean!' i thank you for your comment greatly, because he and i tend to butt heads about just how we see the movements of feminism and masculinism, or rather, that we should need to see either movement's existence at all given that we're in the 21st century and by and large we really figure we're making great strides towards equality amongst both genders. (yeah my sentences are long. shuddup, it's friday night and the bf and i tend to have weekend threesomes with a bottle of vodka) but in any event- you brilliantly summed up just what my significant other and i have been talking about in depth lately, exemplified in the notion that we can objectify men as women, but were men to objectify women so overtly (in a 'sexy-ugly' judging capacity such as this, not necessarily a generic 'oh i'd bang her' ranking that, let's face it, happens whether anybody's thinking about it or not) as we do, there would be all kinds of unholy 'sexist pig!' hell to pay. so, to make a long story short: yes. you are correct sir. i say we objectify everybody, personally, but that could be the vodka talking. cheers!

Oh, and the comment hell had nothing to do with angry women shouting "sexist pig", and everything to do with obnoxious individuals shouting "you finding these women attractive means your GAY." So there you go. Make of that what you will.

I'm going to come out of lurking here for a minute and say: Not one single person has said Hilary Swank?! They even had an argument over it in one episode of The Office. I'm hard pressed here to find a single person who finds her genuinely attractive.

*goes back to lurking*

Amanda6 writes, "I think Dustin's argument here is that in Hollywood, if you're a woman, if you're not conventionally attractive in the face then you definitely are in the body."

I agree. But again, how is that any different from men? Would Steve Buschemi get many roles if in addition to being a snaggletooth, he were also 300lbs? Would Adrien Brody have been cast in Predator if he weren't cut like a rock? There is just as much pressure for a man in hollywood to have chisled abs, bulging shoulders and a big dick (thanks Kevin Bacon) as there is for women to be thin and supple.

So again, it doesn't have anything to do with sex (as in gender, not as in appeal). It has to do with very general expectations for actors to try and fit into the mold of "beautiful" as much as possible. If you're fuggo, get thin and tone. If you're pretties, maybe just go ahead and enjoy that pint of cookie dough ice cream after all.

The problems aren't just women's problems. That he chose to ignore those problems with the men and address them with the women are what make an article like this hypocritical.

Superasente had it right, there seems to be a confusion for some people. They seem to think that coddling women is the same thing as protecting them, when it actually shows a lack of faith that women are capable of having their looks criticized, just as a man would be.

As an example, Jay, in both this comments section and the last similar thread's comments, repeatedly expressed his moral outrage that any person could find fault with the looks of an actress. He is so busy grandstanding as the white knight that he fails to see that claiming Kathy Bates is beautiful is pandering bullshit. If anyone with any pleasant qualities at all is considered "beautiful", then the word loses all meaning.

I'm going to come out of lurking here for a minute and say: Not one single person has said Hilary Swank?!

She's been mentioned a couple of times in the comments. I can never really decide if she's ugly or pretty, so I guess she fits in the ugly/pretty category for me.

Kristen Wiig. Though she might fall into a category I like to call White Women Hollywood Insists On Pretending Are Unusually Attractive. Yes, Jenna Fischer. We're talking about you too.

Unusually attractive? I think they both have a very girl-next-door look. Kind of generically pretty and attainable, which is why they're so appealing to men.

I'd agree 100% with those who mentioned Sandra Bernhard.

Let's look at a few of the most recognizable guys on the male list: Willem Dafoe, John Leguizamo, Forest Whitaker, Adrien Brody, Benicio Del Toro, Steve Buscemi.

The assertion in the other article was that they weren't traditionally handsome men, but that they have a certain magnitude or sex-appeal that draws audiences to them. They're sexy, even though they might not be classically handsome. It's a good list. It didn't include any of the obviously ugly men in Hollywood (Dustin mentions Dan Fogler above as his example), but these guys aren't exactly Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt either.

For this article, Dustin argues (well, I might add) that women fall into a much slender range of what is acceptably attractive. You reinforce that argument and I agree with you both. Women have it tougher. It is legitimately more difficult for an aspiring actress to make it in Hollywood if she's ugly than it is for a man. I'm not "implicitly arguing that the men have it just as bad as the women."

That being said, there is no conceivable reason that a list of equally attractive/unattractive women couldn't have been constructed to compliment the men's list. Tilda Swinton. Maggie Gyllenhallallal. Tina Fey. These women are not classically pretty either. They don't obviously fall into a mold. They're not Kathy Bates, but they sure as hell aren't Angelina Jolie either.

So why? Why couldn't we have a female list? Why take a stand when it's time to point that superficial, judgemental finger at the gals?

Dustin thinks of himself as a feminist. I don't think there is any denying it, and it would be a waste of both our times to provide examples. As a feminist, he took a step back from the superficial, judgemental excercize that was recently executed with the men and evaluated it. And in doing so, he aptly found the flaws in the excercize, and soon abandoned it. Not because it's futile (I think the comments above have established that it would not have been), but because he doesn't feel it's right to perpetrate the narrow vision Hollywood has created for female beauty.

This is hypocritical precisely because he considers himself a feminist. I see feminism as the ideology that men and women are equal. Not that women need special treatment. Not that men are to be reviled. The two sexes are different, but those differences don't create an imbalance in equality. As such, I see each action motivated by feminism in these terms. The truest feminist action in this instance would have been to address the concerns with Hollywoods narrow vision of female beauty, but to go ahead and do the list anyway. If the site is low enough to make this kind of list for men, it should be low enough to do one for women. Equality.

Failing to make the list seems like a deliberate step to treat women differently. To treat them better. Which (in my perspective anyway) is decidedly not feminist.

Ha, I did read all that! Thanks to you as well for the exchange. I think (on my part, at least) we may be at a place of understanding on the whole, so I'm just going to leave this at "Good day, and thank you for my morning mental workout!"

it's too late, because this thread is dead, but i only just got the entire title of the original male version of the thread, the "turn the lights off" title.

I would just like to translate that title to reveal the horrific mysandry in it.

"Man, put a bag over that bitches head, and i would still cornhole her"

The title of the Pajiba post, and my nasty rebuttal have nothing to do with being enchanted and sexually aroused by unconventional beauty, or ugly beauty as we like to say.

and i will just add, ass far as computers are concerned, there is no such word as mysandry. in other words, opens season folks!

I'm sure there are plenty of stragglers lurking about, idleprimate. Even if you don't receive a reply, there are probably plenty of people who revisit threads that are dead or don't get around to reading things until later in the week. I do it all the time. I saw your comment originally posted in the other thread and I get your point in criticizing the title. Personally, I decided to take it in jest rather than get offended. I would concede that a shitstorm would ensue had a similarly insulting title been used for women.

Failing to make the list seems like a deliberate step to treat women differently. To treat them better. Which (in my perspective anyway) is decidedly not feminist.

I couldn't agree more.

@robin, my computer's dictionary doesn't recognise the word no matter how you spell it.

@Uda, oh I know there are lurkers and late readers, i'm just a big crabbycrybaby when it comes to drunkenly arguing by myself.

Agreements with the previous suggestions plus a few of my own, in no particular order. I am including all ages because the actor list was not limited to one generation either.

Linda Hunt. Decent actress but definitely cast in She-Devil because of her unconventional looks.

Rachel Dratch. I just don't find her attractive, large breasts or not, funny or not.

Gina Gershon. I find her underbite oddly engaging.

Maggie Gyllenhaal. In Secretary she demonstrates the difference makeup, outfits, and attitude can make in our perception of attractiveness.

Christina Ricci. Love her eyes, but the girl has a definite fivehead.

Sarah Jessica Parker. There was a reason for her South Park episode, and there was a reason she was on Square Pegs in her younger years.

Sandra Bernhard. Falls into the angular, androgynous side of attractiveness.

Tilda Swinton. Also attractive in an oddly angular, androgynous manner.

Kathy Bates. I will agree with those who called her radiant, but she still wouldn't fall under conventional attractiveness standards in Hollywood or the midwest.

Kirstie Alley. Weight fluctuations and mannish face structure aside, I always thought her eyes were mesmerizing.

Honorable mention: Julia Roberts. I have never been a fan of the horsey teeth, but I know whoever picked her for People's 50 Most Beautiful People issue would disagree with me.

I appreciate discussion of the appropriateness of this thread. If you're going to have it for the guys, we should have it for women. So what if one Pajiban challenges another's rationale for finding a woman's quirkiness attractive? I have not seen vitriol in the "ugliness" justifications so far, so it is a bit patronizing not to have similar discussion opportunities for the females just to "protect" us from ourselves.

Wouldn't Bette Davis be one of the first on this list- Def Beautiful, but not pretty- you never know from scene to scene if you think she's fabulous looking or eh?

Also, Jane Russell- a vavoom body and lovely face, in some shots and not in others......

and do I dare to venture to Glenn Milstead? A truly Ugly-Hott Woman.

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