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Don't Worry Geeks, You're No Longer Freaks. Unless, Of Course, You're A Girl.

By Joanna Robinson | Posted Under Think Pieces | Comments (66)



geeks.jpeg

Did you hear the rumor? The word on the street is that geek culture is dead. I know, you’re confused. “But, but,” you cry out, “geek culture is everywhere!” It’s true, geek culture is in ur summer blockbusters, plastered on ur ironic tees and messing with ur sentence structure. But that’s the point, I guess, fellow geeks, now that we’re mainstream, we’re nothing. This was the thrust of Patton Oswalt’s recent and much-lauded article for Wired magazine where he lamented:

Our below-the-topsoil passions have been rudely dug up and displayed in the noonday sun. The Lord of the Rings used to be ours and only ours simply because of the sheer goddamn thickness of the books. Twenty years later, the entire cast and crew would be trooping onstage at the Oscars to collect their statuettes, and replicas of the One Ring would be sold as bling.

But, listen, my geek friends, once we move past the petulant, playground mentality of “this is mine and you can’t have it,” oughtn’t we rejoice? This sounds like the death to any exclusion to me. Death to wedgies and swirlies and being stuffed in your locker. So go ahead, shout your love for Star Wars from the rooftops without fear of reprisal! Drag your comics out from their dusty hiding place underneath your bed, wear your TARDIS shirt and sport those pointy elven/vulcan/Yoda ears! No one will mock you. Unless, wait, you don’t have boobs, do you? Oh, then we’ve got a problem.

Last week, Vince Mancini of Film Drunk posted a controversial video called “Hot Girls Pandering To Nerds.” The video (put together by Film Drunk film editor Oliver Noble) attempts to expose a group of attractive female actresses “faking” their “nerd cred” in order to curry favor with the male film-going audience. This gendered view of geek credibility didn’t go over well with the collection of female bloggers and authors known as “The Geek Girls” who fired back via Twitter and on their blogs calling for Mancini to apologize for what they perceived to be a very sexist post. The backlash puzzled Mancini who says, “I was surprised by the reaction. Especially the part where they somehow thought I’d implied it wasn’t okay or wasn’t possible to be attractive and be a geek…But just because something’s true doesn’t mean it’s not a cliché or that it’s not pandering.” One of the Geek Girls, Amy Ratcliffe of “Geek With Curves, explains the Geek Girl response, “Besides realizing that I really dislike the word ‘pander,’ I saw his point about some people faking geek cred. I just didn’t like that he focused on women only - that just makes us (geek girls) feel picked on. We respond when we feel picked on; I think we are all protective of each other.”

This is not the first time the Geek Girls have banded together to protect their own. In December of last year, 7 year-old Katie Goldman tearfully asked her mother if she could replace her Star Wars water bottle with a plain pink one because the kids at her school were bullying her and telling her that Star Wars is only for boys. Bonnie Burton of Grrl.com led the charge and mobilized geeks (both male and female) who came to Katie’s defense. Burton explains:

Fans said, “Not on my watch we’re not going to let any little girl be put in a corner for liking Star Wars.” There was a great outpouring of support of comments on our blog and her mom’s blog it was just one of those moments that made me really proud to be a Star Wars fan and a Geek Girl.

In fact, actress Ashley Eckstein who voices a lead character on the popular “Star Wars: Clone Wars” series (ahem, a female warrior) sent young Goldman some goodies from her Her Universe line of geekware exclusively for women.

The next slight to female geeks came in the form of a NYT “review” for the HBO fantasy series “Game of Thrones.” In addition to not actually reviewing the show, NYT writer Ginia Bellafante called the sci-fi/fantasy genre “boy fiction.” Once again the Geek Girls mobilized and there was a huge backlash resulting in a non-apology apology from Bellafante and causing Geek Girl Nicole Girtman to create The Geek Girls Book Club. Girtman explains:

I wanted to start a book club for all geeks, not just women. A place where those kinds of books are the norm, and we can discuss them among peers. I hope that people of all ages and sexes will enjoy the books, and mostly the bonds that are made between truly wonderful geeks.

For many the NYT review carried the extra sting that comes when a woman attacks or derides other women. This same sting accompanied Salon.com writer Mary Elizabeth Williams’ repost of the Film Drunk video. When asked to elaborate on her write-up, Williams asserts, “It’s about the fantasy of the attainable girl. And it’s the way these women very deliberately try to create this image as superhot but also superaccessible and regular that I question.” Williams isn’t the only female to share Vince Mancini’s view. Zooey Mae of Synthesis.net attacked women who display both femininity and nerdiness saying, “There’s actually a woman who’s paid by the fascists at MTV to write about comics. That’s all well and good, but her blog title is ‘Has Boobs, Reads Comics.’ Really? I’d like to punch her in her stupid boobs. ” You can read Jill “Stupid Boobs” Pantozzi’s eloquent response here.

Do female geeks pander? Do actresses pander? Were THESE actresses pandering? Well, the general consensus among both the Geek Girls and Mancini and Williams is that EVERYONE panders. Kiala Kazebee of The Nerdist says,

I kind of think they are just hobbyists with socially acceptable body types crammed into tight clothing. You don’t see me getting up in arms about Jensen Ackles and Misha Collins [of “Supernatural”] not being true nerds. Hollywood will market anything and everything - ESPECIALLY a woman’s sexuality. I think it must be a terrible uphill battle as a female in the nerd industry in regards to how much of your sexuality you are willing to er…sell. I do not envy these women. I will say I personally would wish for more personality based geek heroines in the industry and less sexy sex sex ones.

Unfortunately for Film Drunk, Burton et. al. speak to the bonafides of the actresses included in his video and even Mancini admits, “I think [the Geek Girls] were valid in thinking I maybe should’ve left Rosario Dawson and (to a lesser extent) Adrianne Curry out of the video. They definitely seemed genuine, and genuineness is generally seen as at odds with ‘pandering.’”

However, I think the real disconnect between the Geek Girl detractors and the Geek Girl supporters is this question of the importance of the “Geek” label. Both Mancini and Williams declared the geek label as “irrelevant” saying it has lost all meaning. They both used the term “outsider” as if to claim “geek” status is to announce yourself as separate, alone and different. All the Geek Girls I interviewed, on the other hand, glorify the term as one of inclusivity, shared interest and, in the words of the fabulous Geek Girl Diva “empowerment.” The desire to create a welcoming environment, they say, is the reason why they are so vocal in their loves. The reason, in fact, such sites as The Mary Sue, DC Women Kicking Ass and Girls Love Superheroes exist is so the Katie Goldmans of the world know there is a place where they belong. Bonnie Burton explains:

Geek as a positive thing, without geeks we wouldn’t have the internet or science or space travel or imagination. There are a lot of teenage girls in Junior High and Elementary School who may not realize it’s okay for them to like this stuff. So it’s crucial for we Geek Girls to make their presence known so they can be proud of all the geeky things they do whether it be sci-fi/fantasy or hardcore mathematics or hardcore gardening or whatever! You know, everyone has something that they geek out about. Everyone’s welcome to the geek clubhouse and don’t forget your lightsaber.

So welcome to the Geek clubhouse everybody but be careful if you try to attack it because, in the words of the Tenth Doctor, it is defended.

Joanna Robinson has neither had nor administered a swirlie so she doesn’t know why they weigh so heavily on her mind today. Email! Twitter!









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Comments

My geekiness isn't pandering. My hotness is.

Posted by: kate the great at May 10, 2011 6:31 PM

Exhibit A:

See everything that Olivia Munn has ever said/done.

Posted by: sean at May 10, 2011 6:37 PM

There is room in the Geek Tent for everyone. Come on in!

Posted by: The Wanderer at May 10, 2011 6:42 PM

First off, I completely agree with your sentiment concerning Patton Oswalt's article. To me, he really did sound like an old man yelling at the kids to get off his lawn. So, thank you for that, JoRo.

For all you geeks out there, and not just the girls, I highly recommend Joe Kelly and Ken Niimura's I Kill Giants. It's specifically about a geek girl, but the issues of being an outsider or misunderstood, or both, are universal. It's a wonderful book, that I wouldn't have found without my LCBS's own book club.

Which brings me to my main issue with "Geek Girls." It's the label. I hate labels, generally, but I've owned my geekery since high school, so I'm okay with that one. I understand the need to, not differentiate yourselves from male geeks but, celebrate your sex and your interests at the same time. They're equal parts of who you are. I get that. I just wish we could skip ahead to the part where we're all just "Geeks" and we can move on.

Particularly the name, The Geek Girls Book Club, doesn't sit well with me. I mean, I heard about that, and I instantly, as a male geek, felt excluded. I like book clubs, too, damn it. The name alone is unwelcoming. Why can't it just be The Geek Book Club? That feels a bit misguided... It's the same problem I have with bookstores separating fiction with sections called FICTION/LITERATURE, GAY/LESBIAN FICTION, AFRICAN AMERICAN FICTION, etc., etc. It's all fiction, innit? Again, I get it. It just sucks.

Posted by: RobP at May 10, 2011 6:44 PM

"Nerd girl I don't deserve you
I don't get the references you refer to
I love your lip-smackers and your lack of perfume
I hope to get you home by curfew."

M.C. Chris

Posted by: superasente at May 10, 2011 6:56 PM

I think Vince at FilmDrunk got a raw deal on that post. He wasn't saying anything remotely close to "women can't enjoy geeky things." He pointed out examples where it seemed like pandering, and in the original post he even said that Rosario Dawson seems to legitimately know her stuff. It does seem like a definite ploy on the part of some actresses, to make themselves seem attainable to the "geeks" that make up the audience for whatever project they are currently involved in.

It is similar to the way that every model or actress feels the need to explain how ugly and how much of an outsider she was in high school to pander to other women. It's insulting to women to act as if they can't like an attractive actress unless she was an ugly duckling, just as pandering to geeks doesn't show a very high opinion of them.

His bigger point seemed to be that a lot of the things that are touted as "geek cred" really aren't that geeky anymore. Liking Star Wars doesn't make you a geek any more than liking Iron Man or any other Hollywood blockbuster nowadays, so it seems silly to trot out your love of Star Wars to show how geeky you are.

Posted by: Douchebag McGee at May 10, 2011 6:57 PM

Interestingly, Dbag, Vince told me he went back in and added that bit about Dawson after the backlash started. I don't fault him for that because lord knows I've edited my own posts from time to time, but I don't think, knowing that, that you can hold that up in defense of him.

Posted by: Joanna Robinson at May 10, 2011 7:01 PM

I'm doing my part. All my influence upon my three nieces is channeled into turning them into complete geeks.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at May 10, 2011 7:02 PM

How is it I've gone my entire life not knowing I was a geek. I started reading science fiction and fantasy before I even started menstruating and the apparently geek-identifying Lord of the Rings in my teens. Silly me, I thought I was just a person that enjoyed reading.

Posted by: snapnhiss at May 10, 2011 7:06 PM

Oh lord, have we really reached a place where we are questioning the authenticity of another's nerdiness?

I just wanna say I am mortified, MORTIFIED byt he number of girls calling themselves GEEKS today. Seriously. At the cons, I used to be the hottie who had a shot at whoever I wanted in my Mononoke wolfskin. Now I'm just average.

So go away geek girls. I need a playing field in which I actually have a statistical probablility of getting a date.

Posted by: meh at May 10, 2011 7:08 PM

Anyway, there's still plenty of room for geek elitism and differentiation.

Watch the new Doctor Who? Come back when you've watched all the classic Doctor Who.

Watching Game Of Thrones? Go read Game Of Thrones.

Read the Lord Of The Rings books a few times? Go learn Elvish.

Quote Star Wars from back to front? Try going to Star Wars Celebration dressed as Salacious Crumb.

Play D&D? Uh...yeah, actually you still have fringe geek covered.

The mainstream is still the mainstream. Even if it borrows some of our toys, we still have more than enough deeper enjoyment that is our own.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at May 10, 2011 7:13 PM

Congrats, you again missed the point of Mancini's article.

Posted by: maka at May 10, 2011 7:24 PM

See, Darth, that's the kind of exclusionary stuff that I'm not really into. It seems like the sort of "you're not good enough" mentality I prefer to think belongs to the "jocks" (probably unfair, I'm sure there are some very congenial jocks). Can't we just say, "You're watching Game of Thrones?! I loved those books, you should check them out!!" Rather than, "Come back when you've done your homework." I know you're hyperbolizing, I just get leery when it comes to shunning.

Posted by: coveredinbees at May 10, 2011 7:26 PM

I've taken a pretty solid interest in this debate, since a few weeks before it erupted (okay maybe a little earlier, I just want to seem topical) I called out a young lady friend who was going on about how nerdy she was because of her fanatical devotion to LOTR. She took great offense when I pointed out to her that.. she's not a nerd. The third LOTR film grossed over a billion dollars worldwide. 3rd largest box office haul ever. You could argue then, LOTR is (in the movie-verse) objectively the third least nerdy facet of popular culture of all time. I take the same view of Star Wars. It's a pop culture juggernaut. It's ubiquitous. It's omnipresent. Now, I don't think that's a bad thing, Star Wars fucking rules, duh, It's just anything but nerdy. I explained to her that she is simply a LOTR fan. She was upset and I was hoping that this debate could help me figure out why (the lady friend in question failed to explain.)

I still associate terms such as Nerd and Geek with esoteric and marginalised interests. When I was young this was perceived negatively, now I'm an big boy I see it's actually something that you are proud of for having to yourself, or better yet, a very small group of friends and family.
It's tribalism, I suppose. And I guess.. I was telling her she's not in the tribe. She's just the same as everybody else. And that's not usually what people who think they are nerds ever want to hear.

Or Movie Stars.

Unfortunately for so many, myself included, it's the truth.
Embrace Normality, folks.

Posted by: The Only New Zealander at May 10, 2011 7:28 PM

Geek girls need to remember that Mancini wasn't talking about them. He was talking about the girls who couldn't give a crap about geek culture and he was particularly going after them for picking the low hanging fruit of loving Star Wars.

Posted by: maka at May 10, 2011 7:32 PM

I'm not a geek. I enjoy some geek culture but I know the difference between me and a true geek.

Posted by: becks at May 10, 2011 7:34 PM

Play D&D? Uh...yeah, actually you still have fringe geek covered.

Haha I like. And yeah I agreed with the guy about some actresses throwing out their geek cred. "Yay, I like Star Wars"....woooow that's awesome for you and everyone else ever (point already made, but still everyone thinks its the go-to geek thing). Or a generic "I play video games!"; that's not geeky. If they just say it out of the blue when, I dunno, promoting something, then it's obnoxious. Dudes do it too (which is also annoying) but I guess girls get more attention because they're girls.

I feel like I have better words to say about this but I lost interest in my paragraph.

Posted by: vdo86 at May 10, 2011 7:38 PM

My problem with the "pandering" video is the assumption that any of the actresses are faking it. The problem is that it's pointed out at all. If a male actor mentioned Star Wars, no one would say a thing, and there'd be a level of knowledge that would be assumed without question. An actress mentions Star Wars, and she has to prove her geek cred. She's pandering until proven a geek. The problem with that video isn't that he's saying that there's no such thing as a geek girl. The problem is that women have to work twice as hard to prove it, and their motives are questioned in a way men's aren't.

It pretty much boils down to good old fashioned sexism.

And yes, Star Wars is still geeky. While it might be the most mainstream of the geeky choices, it's still a "red flag" to the non-geeks. Try mentioning Star Wars at a lounge or bar and see who responds and how.

Posted by: Teresa Jusino at May 10, 2011 7:39 PM

Side question: Is anime considered geeky? Are people into that still really ostracized?

Posted by: vdo86 at May 10, 2011 7:40 PM

so, now simply being a fan of sci-fi, or comics, of role playing games needs to be a highly charged, politicized, polarized gender battle.

we're talking about entertainment here, not a religion. and whatever purpose the word geek had as derogatory or celebratory is pretty meaningless. it's like saying, "i like movies". yeah, what's your point. and if by geek, one means highstrung, socially awkward and obsessive, well then welcome to the digital age, that's everyone too.

And in 2011 is there a special sting if a female has a different opinion than some arbitrary feminist party line (if that even exists). is there a handbook for journalists to inform them what their take on any given issue should be depending on whether they are male or female? that sounds pretty sexist and purposely antagonistic.

I certainly don't feel like actors need to like the "geek" stuff in order to portray their roles (it's acting), but i can see feeling condescended to if the actors pretend to. i think no one bugs the supernatural cast because they don't pretend to belong to the same subset as their fans.

and equating the very passive pastime of reading fantasy or watching comic book movies with the growth of technology is pretty sad. is that some generalisation that all the physicists, engineers and computer programmers are geeks? or if it weren't for geek entertainment they would have become, what, insurance agents?

This piece and all it's manufactured controversy is nonsense.

and for the record, having grown up when there were no virtually no girls at conventions and reading comics would ensure your virginity stayed intact, I can't see anyone out there wanting to exclude women from the hallowed halls of so called geek hobbies.

Posted by: idleprimate at May 10, 2011 7:47 PM

Fly your geek flag proudly, Courtney!

Posted by: logan at May 10, 2011 7:50 PM

coveredinbees >> Yes, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek there to some degree. I've already told people that are enjoying the show but aren't that geeky that they should check out the books, and I don't feel smug or superior about it in the least. I wouldn't mind if everyone else in the world wanted to dress up as Salacious Crumb with me. (Note: I've never actually dressed up as Salacious Crumb.) I might not feel as unique, but at least I would know we'd have a world filled with people that are spending their time being harmless fantasizing nerds instead of marginalizing each other through some ridiculous strain of politics or religious dogma.

My point there was twofold:

1) If someone were an elitist geek jackass, there would be no need for that person to fret. I don't really care if that sort of person frets, but my point is simply that he shouldn't be doing so. There's still a wide gap between my superficial enjoyment of the Ironman movie and the fact that I've never read an Ironman comic in my life (and have no intent to do so).

2) If you aren't an elitist geek, but you do enjoy the fact that you enjoy things that not everyone enjoys, it's just reassurance that those things still have more than enough room for exploration that can be your own. You can spend your whole life on the realm of the geeks and barely scratch the surface of its resources.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at May 10, 2011 8:04 PM

Little girls should be encouraged to like whatever they want, be it geeky, sporty, girly, whatever.

How often is a man's geekiness ever mentioned as a positive by the way?

Posted by: Socrates_Johnson at May 10, 2011 8:09 PM

I really wasn't offended, or felt a certain way about the video...but I don't know if that's because I'm not a geek*, or because I don't care.

The term geek has always kind of bothered me though. Which is funny that I say that, and then this video comes out, and all these people get all bothered by it, because I kind of thought the same way about being a 'geek'. Suddenly it's super cool ( ironic *thumbs up*) to be geek-like. Everyone's into ironic t-shirts, and Pokemon or whatever and it's just weird. I don't even think I'm making any sense.

Why can't they just say, "I like geeky things." instead of just saying, "I'm a geek! Yeah! (*Vulcun hand gesture thing*!)"

Or you know what, not even that...just..."I like this stuff too!"

I dunno!

*At least, I don't think I am. I've played only three video games semi-religiously, and played a couple others just 'cause my brother wouldn't shut up. I like Doctor Who and have only seen a few of the older ones. Loving the GoT show, and the books have been on my list for a while. I have never seen any Star Wars movies...although my very first movie theater movie was Star Trek, and have probably seen every episode, I just don't remember any of them 'cause I was like, five.

Posted by: Candee at May 10, 2011 8:18 PM

So I guess I imagined that trio of high school girls who whipped every challenger's butt in Magic the Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon in the past month during breaks at rehearsals? Or the girls I graduated college with who helped found an independent inter-collegiate Quidditch league and the school's Tolkien book club? I mean, if a New York Times critic says that she doesn't know any female geeks, how could I--a lowly freelance writer--dare claim to know any?

Someone doesn't get the point, and that someone got very indignant about it when the Internet turned on her. It's the "you don't get it, you pleebs" defense and it doesn't work. Just ask that Towson professor who thought killing Mimi at the end of Rent was ok because she didn't read her licensing contract and therefore couldn't be held accountable to it.

Posted by: Robert at May 10, 2011 8:34 PM

I've never liked the term "geek" anyway. I was just using the term because it is the chosen parlance for this discussion. I still prefer to think of myself as a "nerd." To me, "geeks" bite the heads off chickens. You know, kind of like The Conundrum (as played by The Enigma) in that X-Files episode "Humbug"?

That probably is a discussion for another thread, although now I'm beginning to see how that futuristic South Park world in which the atheistic super-intelligent otters go to war over semantics might have come into being.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at May 10, 2011 8:36 PM

I've never been nerdy and I've never liked nerds. Hey, at least I'm not a hypocrite about it.

In my experience, I actually found nerds/geeks/whatever to be just as sexist as your average frat guy (possible more so), just not as athletic or cute.

Just my memory, which is now getting close to 20 years old (gulp).

Posted by: samantha t at May 10, 2011 8:38 PM

It's not that surprising, Primate. People are always trying to draw lines of inclusion and exclusion around the cultural areas they identify with, propping themselves up and pushing others away, defending their territory, etc. Call it "geek" or "hipster" or "movie snob" or whatever. It's all a big club and any club is going to be valued on exclusivity an barriers to entry.

And of course it's all completely stupid and actually very counter-productive. For as much as we bemoan the $80M Fast Five opening while hoping against hope that halfway decent TV shows don't get canceled before their time you would think we would welcome with open arms any and every passerby and poser who wants to put $12 in Focus Features' hands.

And yet, it still gets under my skin when a vapid cypher like Megan Fox poses scantily in Maxim talking about about how she is a big geek and loves comic books, blah blah blah in the weeks before the Transforms movie comes out (although didn't she marry Brian Austin Green? And now that she has suffered the backlash she is more sympathetic, or at least less hateable. Maybe her handlers and publicists are more to blame.)

Look, for a lot of people Geek Girls are a beloved and belusted group. Having breasts and pretty eyes as well as the ability to debate the relative merits and authenticity of this years crop of comic book movie adaptations is more likely to make geek girls fawned upon objects of affection and romantic projections ("she gets me, dude, she's like my dream girl."-- based on a five minute conversation)

And so of course you have the inevitable backlash- because nothing can be completely and universally praised- where some jackass with a blog takes offense at how easy it is for a comely actress to throw out a few buzz words and lead the collective blogosphere around by the nose.

And it probably is, but that's not the point. Because Joanna's right. Being inclusive is good. It makes sense. Being a smug and excluding people just makes you a dick. You can't draw lines in the sand without putting a lot of good and wonderful people on the outside. Don't worry about labels or definitions, just recommend cool stuff to people, even if they aren't cool. Maybe something will resonate and they will get more cool. Bottom line, the more you support cool stuff the more cool stuff there will be. Pettiness and insecurity are not cool.

Posted by: Yossarian at May 10, 2011 8:49 PM

I agree with everything Darth said.

And, somewhere, a small, green alien sheds a silent tear.

Posted by: RobP at May 10, 2011 8:50 PM

So, basically everything Jo and the rest of you said, only with more run on sentences.
Yossarin!

Posted by: Yossarian at May 10, 2011 8:50 PM

Yossarian >> I liked the way you phrased it. Very inspiring!

Posted by: DarthCorleone at May 10, 2011 8:52 PM

I married a geek. True, he's a hot, South American geek with a core-of-the-sun-hot accent, but his geek cred is impeccable: He's an engineer. Software engineer.

Having said that... I love geeks and I am cultivating geekiness in my kids. Sadly, they have their father's charm and swarthy dark gorgeousness. So: This is a burden they have to live with all their lives. Poor things.

My daughter is going to have them PANTING at MIT. Do you hear me? PANTING!

Posted by: klingonfree at May 10, 2011 9:16 PM

When I was growing up I was a social outcast who others would have classified as "geek" and "nerd". This is in a time before the Star Wars prequels and when the LOTR could only be enjoyed in book format. My younger sister would tease me for watching Star Wars and reading comics and my social circle was small, unpopular and bullied on a daily basis.

We used to play D&D late into the night, hit the comic shops every Wednesday and argue who would win in a battle between Merlin and Gandalf. I was the true stereotype and I did exist and never did I once think I belonged to an elitist group.

Whenever someone (ANYONE) showed interest in the things I loved I would welcome them with open arms and would urge them to learn more. I was never like Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons and held an appreciation for the fact that what I liked was obscure.

But then all those things that I once loved started to become mainstream, and though at first I was overprotective of those things eventually I learned that just because I love it does not make it mine.

Those things that made me different were suddenly the topic of conversation and I had the ability to connect with people with my knowledge of these things that they were only now learning of. It was great and fantastic.

Now there is this debate as to who is truly nerdy and who is just a poser and I am saddened by the fact that people who may have been excluded in the past for loving these geeky things are now excluding others for suddenly taking interest. What is worse is that now the debate is creating a disturbing trend in gender exclusion as well.

Joanna makes some great points here, and even though some of these people may not have intended their words to be interpreted that way, it certainly isn't hard to. As a guy myself I know that I look at the world in one way and sometimes need to be reminded to look at it in another. For those people who say that she missed the point, it seems that you too are missing the point.

I for one embrace all geeks, new and old, male or female, dabblers and aficionados. The world doesn't need any more exlusivity.

Posted by: Ranting Raven at May 10, 2011 9:27 PM

Thing One: I'm not trying to be elitist, but how long have some of you been geeks for? Anyone under the age of twenty has NO IDEA how hard and lonely this life style was growing up. So nerdery suddenly becoming popular IS a little off putting to those of us who spent so much time in the wilderness.

Thing Two: Having new nerds IS nice. We don't reproduce quickly, and given how we look, most of us not at all. So genuine interest in genuinely nerdy things is always welcome, even if some of the crustier among us are wary. Besides, Oswalt has nothing to complain about. His success is largely in part from the mainstream moving towards fanboys.

Thing Three: The video wasn't anti-fangirl. It was anti-pandering, and likely amused with the fact the we rate being pandered to. Rosario Dawson and Adrianne Curry seem legit, and Megan Fox name dropped two comic book artists I'm sure most of you have never heard of, so she's in too.

Thing Four: The internet makes it seem like there are more of us then there really are. My Facebook page is FILLED with beautiful, geeky, video-gaming, role-playing, toy-collecting redheads in glasses, but I still don't have enough real friends to fill a gaming table with. For those of us who are nerdy, ugly and lonely, it's still pretty rough.

Posted by: AmbroseKalifornia at May 10, 2011 9:37 PM

Does playing WoW make me a geek/nerd/whatever you wanna call it?

Because I just call it being me.

Posted by: SPAGHATTAH NADLE (formerly popejenm) at May 10, 2011 10:24 PM

nadle, yer def a geek. you compared ripley to jesus for an easter alien marathon. WoW makes you nerdy on top of geeky

Posted by: idleprimate at May 10, 2011 10:32 PM

Maybe I'm the minority and more of a geek liaison than the full-on variety (whatever that means) --- But, uh, whatever happened to owning the things you love and not giving a shit how that fits into the overall scheme of "culture?" If you love something, you love it. Outside sources shouldn't matter.

Yes, it's great to feel a sense of community, but as Yossarian said -- Pettiness and insecurity are NOT attractive. Nor are qualifiers like "WELL if you've suffered [this] much or know so much about [this], then I GUESS we'll let you own the label."

Since when did self-professed geeks need your permission?

Posted by: Sara H at May 10, 2011 11:32 PM

I would like to make a point I'm not seeing here yet. It's not that girls are professing to be geeks, it's that hot girls are professing to be geeks. All the women people are arguing whether or not are actually geeks are hot. Males geeks (supposedly) don't care that the chubby girl with glasses sitting next to them in homeroom is a geek, they want to know that Rosario Dawson is a geek. It feeds into their (again supposed) fantasy that the geek can get the hot girl. So, you get Olivia Munn on G4 and all these starlets claiming to be geeks because they love Star Wars. That's pandering, folks.

Posted by: Three-nineteen at May 10, 2011 11:36 PM

Jill “Stupid Boobs” Pantozzi

Posted by: Jill Pantozzi at May 11, 2011 1:13 AM

Haha, OK I definitely put a heart at the end of that last comment to show my appreciation for my new nickname but it didn't show up, so, HEART!

Posted by: Jill Pantozzi at May 11, 2011 1:15 AM

This is a tough one -- it really is. You've got two major issues in geek elitism and geek sexism, and they converge in a very ugly way when it comes to conventionally attractive women professing to have geek cred.

The trouble is, pandering does totally exist. (Female) geeks don't want to just accept the hot girls calling themselves geeks at face value because the mainstreaming of geek culture now requires that celebrities appear 'attainable' to yet another social segment in order to expand their fanbase. It's even trickier because it does play out in a very gender-specific way. You don't really see a lot of conventionally attractive guys chilling on Conan talking about how geeky they are, and frankly I think it stands to reason that this doesn't happen because a) geek girls are still kind of a novelty to a lot of people (they put the internet in kitchens now?!?!!) and b) geek girls are generally thought of, appearance-wise, very similarly to how people envision geek guys: dumpy, unattractive, etc. As always though, whereas dumpy, unattractive dudes still land hot chicks in Hollywood fantasy, there's no need for hot guys to pander to unattractive women because those pairings just don't happen in Hollywood.

Obviously though, being a conventionally attractive girl and being a geek aren't mutually exclusive, so it can get dicey when you're trying to navigate the minefield that bars your entry into the Geek Club. The geek dude response, in many instances, isn't "Sweet! Nice to meet you! Let's discuss Fortran and supercomputing!" -- more often, it's entirely evident that they think you don't know shit but they're letting you hang out because they hope they'll have a chance with you. It's equally tragic from geek women, because though some of them will indeed welcome you warmly, a lot of them will look at you resentfully because there you are, a mainstream hot girl, intruding on their territory that they have fought so hard for, and they didn't even get to use their looks to their advantage (like you probably did.)

Though I'm the type that likes to see sexism and pandering to the male gaze put on blast, I think I've decided that, perhaps in a somewhat unique case of geek culture, videos like this do more harm than good. Is it likely that some of the women in the video are putting on a bit of a show? Sure, and I definitely have my opinions about who's who in that aspect. But the bottom line is, I don't know their lives, and neither does the guy making the video. In the off chance that all of those women truly believe that they, in some part, are geeks, being dismissed like that is probably a pretty hurtful routine at this point. I don't like seeing geek culture becoming as exclusive and nasty as the mainstream that geeks couldn't be a part of. I don't think it is the worst thing to just accept people who claim to like the same geeky things you do. In the end, if they're faking it, they'll wash out soon anyway and geek culture won't have experienced a huge loss.

Posted by: Amanda6 at May 11, 2011 3:48 AM

Well-said, Yossarian, as usual.

Posted by: Rykker at May 11, 2011 4:14 AM

First of all, let's get this out of the way. Merlin kicks Gandalf's ASS! Secondly, how does this conversation get this far without discussion of one of the more distressing stereotypes that feeds directly into this image-the booth girl. Sexist AND deceptive, this is the image that I think Filmdrunk was accessing when they produced the video. The attractive girl hired to lure male geeks into buying something with no real knowledge of the product. That doesn't excuse the clumsiness and lack of inclusion, but it provides a frame of reference.

Posted by: mrcreosote at May 11, 2011 6:43 AM

Geeks are generally of particular devotion to something, e.g. science, beer, movies, & likely to the detriment of their social skill.

Nerds like nerdy stuff, e.g. MMORPGs, comics, & fantasy novels, but are of decidedly less social skill & acceptability than Geeks. This alone, IMO, precludes beautiful, wealthy actresses from being true nerds. And if they're geeky about anything, it's probably about being beautiful, wealthy, or an actress.

Also it's stunning, how much nerd culture has been commoditized & mainstreamed, it's at a fever pitch. I'm all about it - better a Game Of Thrones series than another singing competition show. And it makes for new nerds, obviously; for every 20 people that really liked the LOTR movies, maybe 1 or 2 of them really liked them, & are now devotees of all things Tolkien or fantasy. At least they're not meatheads.

Posted by: the new transported man at May 11, 2011 8:20 AM

That said, First World Problems. Everybody likes stuff, & beautiful, wealthy actresses can like X-Men or Warcraft until the end of days for all I care.

Posted by: the new transported man at May 11, 2011 8:22 AM

The term "geek" has always annoyed me. Feels more like a generic term for enthusiast. I expecially take umbrage that my interest in sci-fi/fantasy/videogame/comics, etc is somehow less acceptable and "cool" than an interest in sports. I'm not saying I don't like sports, I do. But I don't care to memorize the factoids.

If you can rattle off a lifetime worth of stats on your favorite players and teams, know the intricasies of the rules, and talk intelligently about trends in the sport, than you are a Sports Geek. I can quote Jaws front to back, you can quote me Nolan Ryan's rookie year ERA. It's the same damn thing.

Everyone has an interest, and that interest makes them a "geek". It's time we took that term to make it less of a qualifier and just a general word for "enthusiast". Let's hear it for the Quilting Geeks! Political Geeks! Day Time Soap Opera Geeks! etc.

Posted by: TylerDFC at May 11, 2011 8:45 AM

@TylerDFC: Exactly. "Nerd" & "geek" are subject to semantic confusion. They're not mutually exclusive but they're distinct.

If anybody wants to see some real, hot nerd action, check out the following:

-"Darkon": documentary of Maryland LARPers

-"The Dungeon Masters": RPG nerd documentary

-search on YouTube for toy or game collections or unboxing videos

Posted by: the new transported man at May 11, 2011 8:59 AM

I'm generally perplexed by this. For one thing, there is definitely room enough in the world of geek for anyone. For another, people act like it's so impossible that there's such a thing as a hot geek.
For a third, I get so annoyed when people bitch about the relatively falsehood of a celebrity's persona. GASP! You mean they might be presenting themselves one way, but might not be totally honest in doing so? Hold me steady while I clutch my pearls!
Celebrities are selling an image along with their talent because you can be the best actor/singer/whatever ever, but if you're not likable, you'll probably be facing some pretty steep resistance from the public. So even if a celebrity exaggerates their geek cred to seem more accessible, what's it to me? It doesn't make me less geeky, it doesn't devalue me as a person and, in fact, has nothing to do with me.

In short: who cares? I honestly don't see the kerfuffle people make over stuff like this. If someone wants to call themselves a geek or a nerd (but isn't actually) I think somehow the world will continue to spin.

Posted by: Sassafrass Green at May 11, 2011 9:40 AM

new transpoted man: Just saw we posted similar thoughts back to back. Great minds, eh?

Posted by: TylerDFC at May 11, 2011 9:54 AM

If Jaime Alexander, Rosario Dawson and any other hot woman wants to pander to me far be it for me to stop them. Please pander away, preferably in person...

Posted by: John W at May 11, 2011 10:22 AM

Celebrities are selling an image along with their talent

So THAT's what I've been thinking this whole time, Sassafrass Green. Thanks for finding the words.

When talking to reporters all (ok, probably just most I guess) celebrities become door-to-door salesmen, selling their brand through your TV.

Posted by: Socrates_Johnson at May 11, 2011 10:28 AM

Mila Kunis deserves special recognition, IMO. World Of Warcraft is a phenomenon but it's not Star Wars or LOTR movies. If she actually spends some of her recreational time doing WoW raids or whatever, she's in a different class than these other betties.

Posted by: the new transported man at May 11, 2011 10:43 AM

If by "geek" one means "social outcast," then there will always be geeks. Even if what is now considered geek culture becomes mainstream--which is basically what culture is, subcultures that become mainstream culture--there will still be high school-aged kids being social outcasts and having random, weird obsessions that they love and find others who love similarly, and, thus: nerd culture. Geek culture, whatever.

What's disturbing to me about that video is that there are at least 3, probably 4 women who are accused of pandering to geek culture merely because they're conventionally attractive.Because, I'm sorry, but throwing out some Klingon? That shit is proof that one's dedication to geek culture is real. Megan Fox's name-dropping unfamous comic books similarly strikes me as proof of credibility; and Adrienne Curry's Chewy impersonation is something that takes dedication beyond that of pandering to a fanbase. And Veronica Mars is automatically geeky--accusing Kristen Bell of fake-geekery is like (an obviously less extreme version of) accusing Carrie Fisher of not being a "true nerd."

Secondly: I think part of the problem is that boys who live in geek culture don't necessarily understand that being a girl geek doesn't necessarily mean participating in mainstream (read: boy) geek culture. In high school I wanted to play Magic the Gathering, but no boys were interested in playing with me (they were, however, interested in my boobs). I did not--seriously--realize that I read science fiction and fantasy books and movies until I was a sophomore in college, despite the fact that all my favorite books involve dragons, I loved LOTR and wrote my high school AP English exam essay about Gollum and Boromir (moral ambiguity for the win! also I got a perfect score: true sign of nerd cred). And of course there are a million other reasons that, in retrospect, it's clear that I am a Super Nerd. And now I'm in grad school for Renaissance stuff, also a haven for Nerds. But I was not considered a "nerd" in high school--I was a girl orbital of Nerds. There were no girl nerds in my high school. Why my guy friends were nerds because they loved LoTR and Star Trek, but I wasn't a nerd even though my interests overlapped entirely with theirs (though I was far more into dragons than any of the "real" nerds), isn't exactly clear. But it definitely had to do with the fact that I was deliberately excluded from Nerd Bonding Time, because I have boobs and a vagina. I wasn't invited to marathon Star Wars Saturdays, but I stayed home and watched Star Wars by myself, having private marathons. I wasn't invited to discuss the complexities of Data's humanity, but I would eventually write papers about Data and Shakespeare--but on my own, and after I became a grown up and could see that I was excluded from participating in geek culture though not geek interests. This makes my relationship to geek-things different than the relationship of those who participated in a collective appreciation of geek-things. For one, I didn't identify as a nerd/geek until after becoming an adult and realizing, when for example I started dating people who aren't really nerds, that I am truly a nerd. And also it's easier for me to "pass" as a not-nerd because I wasn't socialized as a nerd (though I was socialized as a social outcast during middle school, hence the unusual affection for dragons, I think).

I think that boys don't understand that when you watched star wars all alone without friends--because your friends didn't know or care that you watched star wars, or because you started dating a nerd boy and suddenly became the "girlfriend" who wasn't invited to the newly-determined-to-be-boy's-day nerd funtimes, or because you never mentioned to anyone that you loved star wars because after that one time everyone mercilessly mocked you for being a nerdy nerd (which didn't happen to the boys who liked star wars in quite the same, isolating way--at least the boy nerd had other boy nerds to bond with).

Posted by: Alie at May 11, 2011 11:22 AM

Everytime someone types "MMORPG" or anything like it, I for some reason pronounce it "Morpork."

Posted by: Anna von Beav at May 11, 2011 11:24 AM

Alie, I am equally interested in playing Magic: the Gathering with you and your boobs.

Your nerd boys are weird, as I would've been ecstatic to watch Star Wars with your geeky equivalent at my school.

Posted by: Socrates_Johnson at May 11, 2011 11:45 AM

Should you be talking to the commenters about their boobs Socrates? Even in jest?

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at May 11, 2011 11:50 AM

Mrs. J, I feel to not do so would a violation of who I am.

Truthfully, I get a little perturbed that many people assume appreciating a woman's physical attractiveness automatically means I have no interest in anything else about her. That was the sentiment I meant to display, albeit in my preferred crude-ish, joking manner.

More eloquently, nerd girls are precious treasures that can be difficult to find, mainly because of the issues Alie and others bring up. I just find it astounding that any self respecting nerd boy would purposefully exclude a girl that's actually outwardly interested in similar things.

My mind has jumped all over the place on this topic, but I always go back to Joanna's main point. Labels like geek should be meant for inclusion and not exclusion. It's not up to us to decide who is a geek and who isn't. We decide whether we are geeks ourselves, and then use that label to find other geeks who share the same interests as you.

That's already too many words for me without a joke or hitting on Joanna, so I'll just stop right there.

Posted by: Socrates_Johnson at May 11, 2011 12:27 PM

Joanna, this was really good! I'm reposting it on my Fayboo, you privileged mother.

Posted by: Caspar at May 11, 2011 12:28 PM

Pul-leese! Gandalf is a Maia. Merlin's just an old dude with a minor gift of prophecy and a handful of illusion tricks. Gandalf soloed a Balrog and wields Glamdring. Merlin... um... I don't think he has any weapons. He isn't allowed to wield Caliburn. He never fought anything or anyone, except in the Disney cartoon, and frankly Gandalf would wipe the floor with Madame Mim.

* coughs * What were we talking about?

Oh, right. Pandering to geeks. Hmm.

On the one hand, *I* like this stuff, and I'm a reasonably attractive and successful person (and humble to a fault apparently). Why shouldn't these actors and actresses like the same stuff I do? I never felt any obligation to put on an extra hundred pounds or wear some badly-repaired glasses to strengthen some stupid stereotype about how people "like me" are supposed to look or act. So it'd be hypocritical for me to assume that Megan Fox couldn't like the same stuff.

On the other hand, sometimes the timing and presentation do make it seem like pandering is involved. But I agree that it's sexist to be more suspicious of Megan Fox's geek cred than we are of Vin Diesel's (who plays D&D). I think that's due to the public perception of how many girls are nerds, compared to how many guys are.

Alie, you're quite right. It's hard to grow up as a nerd, and in some regards nerd girls probably had it worse than nerd guys as I was growing up. It wasn't until the turn of the millennium that mainstream culture even acknowledged that geek girls exist. They do, and they're wonderful! But they haven't had much of a community until lately, meaning they were without the support that helped a lot of us nerdy guys get through our formative years.

I think part of the shift in public perception of nerds is actually due to Bill Gates. The guy looks like a total dweeb, but he could probably buy the whole county I live in, and for years he was one of the most powerful and influential men in the world. It became harder and harder for people to laugh at nerds when they rose to positions of prominence.

As for geek guys excluding geek girls... that's insane. I mean, I know it happens, because sexism is alive and well, but... damn. Geek girls rock. Excluding them is absolutely, totally, and in all other ways incontheivable [sic].

Posted by: foolsage at May 11, 2011 1:45 PM

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

(I am required to write this every time I see that word.)

Posted by: Socrates_Johnson at May 11, 2011 1:52 PM

It's quite conceivable, in the sense that driving pencils into one's eyes is conceivable.

And I'm just doing my part to keep that bit of pop culture alive. Thanks for the follow-through, SJ.

Posted by: foolsage at May 11, 2011 1:54 PM

The problem is: The "Geek Girls" calling out our skepticism as innapropriate is in the end telling us they would prefer to hear us say, "I won't question you hotties at all. I don't care what you're really into as long as you're HOT. You can say anything. And I won't question your motives. Let's just hang out. I'm just gratefull you claim to be a geek because you're a babe and you're skinny and have great boobs and you're somehow trying to impress me....ME?"

I can live with that.

Posted by: Darth Darko at May 11, 2011 2:17 PM

Darth Darko--There are more than two ways to respond to Megan Fox being a nerd:
For example, you can make an angry nerdboy video about how hot girls lie about being nerds.
Or, pace you, you can pander to those ladies yourself.

Or you could ignore them entirely and not mention them on your website? Thus leaving their nerd cred both unsupported AND unquestioned? Because why do you even care that hot girls might lie about liking star wars? (Rhetorical, general you.)

Posted by: Alie at May 11, 2011 4:55 PM

@Alie: You are totally right. That's exactly what I realized. My post was very stream-of-consciousness. By the end of what I was typing, which was intended as snark, I realized. Who cares? So long as they're hot they can say anything they want. Especially if it's meant to pander to me. And really especially when it happens in real life.

I have never called out a pretty girl on her geek cred when she tells me she's a geek because she likes "Star Wars", or "Harry Potter", or even "Twilight". I just go with it, smile, listen and usually agree. Sometimes, though not often, it turns out they actually are geeks. At the very least I'll make a new pretty non-geek friend (to whom I am most eager to pander to) at best... well... you know.

I figure I should afford beautiful starlets at least the same credit that I do to pretty girls I meet in the real world.

I also am feeling quite sure that you too are a pretty girl. But, that's just a hunch based on your pretty name. Of course that could be a mispronunciation/misreading. You could be guy and your name could be a play on the phrase "A-Lie".
Damn, I need to stop this stream-of-consciousness typing and plan what I say before I post it.

Posted by: Darth Darko at May 11, 2011 7:09 PM

I cannot thank you enough for the blog.Much thanks again. Great.

Posted by: Jerrell Weers at May 12, 2011 5:13 PM

"People like us have built this culture on a century of oppression and loneliness!"

http://vimeo.com/22055977

Haha, somebody tagged me and posted this video. Pretty relevant to some of this discussion, as least so far as old guard vs. new.

Also: Alie, call me.

Posted by: AmbroseKalifornia at May 13, 2011 5:26 AM