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The Cherry Myth

By Dr. Pisaster | Posted Under Pajiba Dirty Talk | Comments (59)



1164887_cherry_4.jpg

We all know the story: when a woman loses her virginity, her hymen breaks (or, to put it colloquially, her cherry is popped), she bleeds, maybe a little or a lot, and is forever after marked as a non-virgin by her lack of a hymen. Except that’s actually completely and totally false, not only because virginity means different things to different people, but because the hymen is not what you probably think it is. We tend to picture the hymen as a membrane that stretches across the vagina and prevents penetration until it is broken. Presumably this breaking is usually done by a penis, but landing on something the wrong way can do it, physical exercise can somehow do it, and repeated penetration by something small like fingers or tampons can gradually wear away the hymen without causing any bleeding. To be honest, when I lost my virginity without pain or blood, I assumed that that last explanation was why. In fact, the hymen is not a vagina-blocking membrane, and it doesn’t ever “break.” The hymen is actually a thin corona of membrane about 1 to 2 cm inside that vagina (this site has an illustration of what hymen’s typically look like). It is highly elastic and in most cases perfectly capable of stretching enough to fit a penis without tearing. In most women it doesn’t show any obvious changes after penetration, so there is no way to determine by the state of the hymen whether a woman has ever been penetrated by a penis or not.

The hymen is composed of the same material as the rest of the inner layer of the vagina, a thin, flexible mucous membrane. The tissue has very few nerves or blood vessels. The size of the hymenal opening, thickness, and shape vary from woman to woman. The most common hymen shapes are annular, or circular, and crescentic. Some hymens, known as fimbriated hymens, have multiple projections that look a bit like ruffles or flower petals. Another type, known as a redundant hymen, has so much membrane that it folds back in on itself. Less common is a septate hymen, whose opening is divided by one or more bridges of tissue. In very rare cases, the hymen does stretch across the vagina completely, but this is actually a medical anomaly - called an imperforate hymen - and requires surgery at the onset of menses so that menstrual blood is able to flow out of the vagina. The hymen may be very thin and fragile or very thick and resilient. The shape and thickness of the hymen can change with age. It is sensitive to hormonal changes - becoming more elastic with puberty for example.

Not only is the hymen not what most people think it is, but the majority of women - about 60% - don’t bleed their first time. Probably that’s why the long list of excuses above for not having an “intact” hymen developed. For those women that do bleed, the bleeding has nothing to do with the special anatomy of virgins but is more likely due to inadequate lubrication and loosening of the vagina because of nervousness (virgins aren’t tight because they haven’t been stretched out by a penis yet, virgins are tight because having sex the first time can be a nerve-wracking experience), which can lead to the penis creating small tears in the hymen. Those tears usually heal in a day or so, though, so again there’s no permanent damage that could reveal under physical examination that a woman has lost her virginity. Some women with very fragile hymens or very small hymen openings may experience permanent tearing or loss of tissue, but women with stronger hymens may not experience any tearing at all. This tearing, furthermore, may not be limited to the first episode of penetrative sex but can happen at any time. It’s also possible for tears to occur in other parts of the vagina, meaning the blood may not come from the hymen at all.

It’s unclear where the myth started, but there are texts debunking the myth as early as the 3rd century (by the Greek physician Soranus, to be specific), and yet the myth of the hymen as vaginal gateway persists. It has proved incredibly resilient in the face of evidence to the contrary. As I mentioned, most women don’t bleed when they have penetrative sex for the first time, and you’d think guys would notice that there is in fact no barrier. But instead of questioning the idea that the vagina is blocked by a membrane that breaks upon penetration, we’ve invented a number of reasons why the membrane would cease to exist without sexual intercourse. In some cases women who don’t bleed may be accused of lying about their virginity, which in certain cultures can be a very dangerous thing. The myth is powerful enough that some women choose to undergo surgery to “repair,” their hymens and create the illusion of virginity. These surgeries often involve taking a portion of the vaginal wall and creating a new membrane that will be torn by penetrative sex. In other words, the goal is to simulate the hymen myth, not the actual hymen. So why does the myth have such a strong hold on us? It’s true that some women do bleed the first time they have sex, but women can bleed from sex at any time if they aren’t sufficiently aroused or the penetration is rough enough. The truth is the cherry myth allows us to think there is a way to tell virginal women from those who’ve had sex. A woman’s virginity is held to be worth much more than a man’s, and women are expected to preserve it, in some cultures, until marriage, or at least until meeting someone “special.” Being able to prove a woman’s virginity therefore is valuable and we’ve held on to the idea despite the truth. It’s long past time we accepted the reality, that there’s nothing physically special about a virgin woman, and there shouldn’t be anything culturally special either.

(My source for much of the anatomical data is this book.)

Dr. Pisaster has a doctorate in biophysics, not actually anything sexy. She does however enjoy having sex, reading about sex, and talking about sex. Especially when she’s had a little whiskey.









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Comments

virgins aren’t tight because they haven’t been stretched out by a penis yet, virgins are tight because having sex the first time can be a nerve-wracking experience

This is an interesting point. I have been having (some amount of) sex for almost 8 years, and I am almost always tight starting out. Due to medication I have had some lubrication issues in the past, which contributed to the problem, but I think it is a mental thing for me. The best sex of my life, I have noticed a complete lack of that... preventative issue.

Hmm, something to think about...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at October 26, 2010 4:39 PM

Of course this myth has legs. It allows both sexes increased access to one of their favorite pastimes: using women as societal punching bags.

A little bit of faulty anatomy knowledge not only provides an illusion of patriarchal control over sexual access but also allows women to disdain and cast aspersions on each other.

You can't let a silly little thing like a fact get in the way of all of that "fun" and "family values."

Posted by: ZombieScientist at October 26, 2010 4:39 PM

We saw something one time...and surmised that that's what had happened. There was no pain, nothing bad had happened, but it was a very jarring image I can still see and really scared me for a minute. "What did I DO???"

Posted by: Jay at October 26, 2010 4:54 PM

The father of one of our farm workers was a fulltime deflowerer of young virgins and when I met him I was never so pleased to be born with a twinkie.

Posted by: peanut at October 26, 2010 4:54 PM

I know what you're trying to say with this sentence "A woman’s virginity is held to be worth much more than a man’s" but that's not the way to say it. In reality, controlling a woman's sexuality is much more acceptable than controlling a man's and therefore putting these restrictions in place that allow men to control women from ever angle is why we have the hymen myth and all of those other ridiculous "cultural traditions".

Posted by: PaddyDog at October 26, 2010 4:58 PM


I know what you're trying to say with this sentence "A woman’s virginity is held to be worth much more than a man’s" but that's not the way to say it. In reality, controlling a woman's sexuality is much more acceptable than controlling a man's and therefore putting these restrictions in place that allow men to control women from ever angle is why we have the hymen myth and all of those other ridiculous "cultural traditions".

I second this. Honestly I'm a virgin and while there have been many times I wished I wasn't--I just haven't met the right person yet. And that's something a guy CANNOT change for me. I will decide who is the right person and when that happens...it's nice to feel empowered sometimes.

Posted by: grace b at October 26, 2010 5:17 PM

Keep up the good work, Dr. Pisaster. I just love these sex columns. They have absolutely nothing to do with reviewing entertainment, and yet I find them immensely entertaining and enlightening.

Posted by: BWeaves at October 26, 2010 5:18 PM

Grace b: It's worth the wait. I'm still on number one. Been with him 28 years and counting.

Posted by: Bweaves at October 26, 2010 5:20 PM

Such an interesting article! I remember having to defend my friend when her first ex-boyfriend went around telling everyone that she hadn't been a virgin when they got together because she didn't bleed.
Being fifteen and quite sheltered we didn't have a fabulous grasp of our own anatomies, but we pretty firmly believed that ten years of competitive gymnastics had 'de-virginised' us when we were children, so that's what we said in her defence. And of course that the ex-boyfriend had the tiniest dick we'd ever seen in our limited experience.

Posted by: squeeziee at October 26, 2010 5:34 PM

BWeaves,
I think to be an authoritative figure on the subject you have to both fuck a lot of people and also just fuck one.

Posted by: pissant at October 26, 2010 5:39 PM

But why is it more acceptable to control a woman's sexuality, PaddyDog? Because it's considered more worthy of protection. Dr. P's phrasing gets to the point, yours, while not incorrect, doesn't go deep enough. (Pun not intended. Seriously, but I'm sticking with it.)

I'm also not a fan of your statement that it "allow[s] men to control women from ever[y] angle[.]" Yeah, yeah, yeah, men hold the power and they always have. I get it. But it takes two to tango.

Posted by: RobP at October 26, 2010 5:40 PM

How does the website that brought me the Orcs! trailer turn out to be one of the most intelligent gatherings on the internet?

Posted by: Markus at October 26, 2010 5:45 PM


I have been a vocal opponent of the "Virgin as Prize" mindset for a long, long time. So, thank you for this informative and well-thought out article. I love it. I hope more people read it, as well.

Posted by: billieroulette at October 26, 2010 5:45 PM

This needs to be printed out and mailed to every romance writer in the world.

Posted by: dahlia6 at October 26, 2010 5:59 PM

This is all fine and good...

But pussy trolls are real, though.

Right?

Posted by: Vermillion at October 26, 2010 6:03 PM

Seriously, i don't know why I just posted that.

I....I am going to go stand in the corner now.

/corner sad

Posted by: Vermillion at October 26, 2010 6:04 PM

Dr Soranus.


I.....

Wha......

(explodes from containing laughter)

Boom!

Posted by: frank_247 at October 26, 2010 6:23 PM

Oh, Vermillion, I laughed. So it was all worth it.

Posted by: MM at October 26, 2010 6:24 PM

Horrible Hymen Story. Are you ready? I can tell you're super excited.

My friend used to coach field hockey - I don't remember the exact age of the players, but they were young. Around ten, eleven at the most. A couple of girls were goofing off, holding their sticks upright and trying to leapfrog over them. One girl fails to clear her stick and falls on to of it, pretty much impaling her jr. lady business. Then, 'cause she's embarrassed and freaked out, she doesn't tell anybody. My friend finally notices the blood on the girls' uniform and pulls her out of the game - then has to explain to the father why his 10-year old has to go to the hospital, where they proceed to sew her back together.

Posted by: Lauren at October 26, 2010 6:43 PM

Thank you for writing this. It was totally news to me. I'm so old now that losing my virginity is a distant memory, but there was no blood for me and my boyfriend at the time implied that I must be lying about it being my first time. After he came and went (ZING!) I actually deliberately went out and had sex with someone else (a friend) just to see if... I don't know... I did it correctly the first time? Still nothing. I was pretty perplexed. I was (and still am) a big romance novel fan and so I pretty much expected a FOUNTAIN of blood.

So thanks for clearing that up 23 years later.

Posted by: malechai at October 26, 2010 6:53 PM

"It’s long past time we accepted the reality, that there’s nothing physically special about a virgin woman, and there shouldn’t be anything culturally special either."

I'd like to raise my hand in disagreement with this statement. I'd contend that there should be something "culturally special" about a virgin women, and I'd say that extends to virgin men, too. As much as I appreciate the good doctor's strides towards demythologizing sex and moving towards more equality I chafe at her tendency to dismiss the "sex is special and ideally each person only shares it with one person" argument (and I'm not just referring to this article but also to her other articles on Pajiba). Now sure I have my biases (most glaringly that I'd fall square in the "good" side if that argument reigns) and many women have been abused under the banner of this argument, but I still feel that Dr. Pisaster skews too far the other way and dismisses any monogamy argument as necessarily evil (i.e. as representing the abusive, repressive regimes).

Posted by: Tyler at October 26, 2010 7:11 PM

Tank you peanut, that made me laugh and I dont really know why.

Posted by: strtwise at October 26, 2010 7:20 PM

It’s long past time we accepted the reality, that there’s nothing physically special about a virgin woman, and there shouldn’t be anything culturally special either.

Good luck next time when you're throwing that non-virgin into the volcano because everybody knows that instead of being pacified it blows up on you if you try that shit.

Posted by: OscarTamerz at October 26, 2010 7:23 PM

I haven't noticed any decrying of monogamy, and monogamy's not the same as virginity anyway.

I'm years beyond being able to rationalize virginity or lack thereof mattering in any way, which is nice, but I'd agree that "purity" gets overblown for younger people, here and elsewhere. There's really not black and white. There's a kneejerk prudish part of my brain, but I objectively know better (and "Chasing Amy" did explain all of that very clearly). Me, I can't really care what happened before. It's not really worth it for anyone to. I just want people to take their clothes off with affection and respect for each other, at least a general affection and respect for the sex of the other person if these two individuals aren't exactly gonna be pals for life.

It does bum me out, and I sometimes bristle, at what I know is reasonable anger over sexist manipulation and oppression that I had no hand in, but really discord in general bums me out and makes me tense, and it's long upset me that sex gets so much goddamn anger and resentment mixed in with it. Keep Sex Friendly!

Posted by: Jay at October 26, 2010 7:48 PM

Nicely put Tyler.

When sex has become such an easy commodity, virgin women are rare. It's lovely to meet women who want to wait and have sex with someone they feel close to and respect.

In wanting to accept the reality of virgin women not being physically special, would you also agree that women who sleep around alot are whores? And men who've had multiple sexual patners are Studs?

Posted by: Jean at October 26, 2010 8:00 PM

Well said, Jay!

And thanks as always for spurring the discussion, Dr.!

Posted by: DarthCorleone at October 26, 2010 8:36 PM

you also must know that the foreskin can tear from the urethra and bleed when the guy has sex for the first time, or has vigorous sex later on. multiple times throughout life.

i learned so about the hymen that I think I'm prepared even if Will Shortz feels like making it the Saturday.

imperforate anus is my new high-brow, esoteric slur for that tight ass I work for.

Posted by: Snookums at October 26, 2010 8:41 PM

Oh, my en-wombed sea snakes, I FINALLY have something to contribute!

I think there are a few reasons for the confusion:

We conceive of the hymen as one specific, virginal, vaginal membrane. I don't think that the medicine was that exacting until fairly recently. Medieval texts talk about hymens, but for them it only meant any kind of gynecological membrane. That could mean the hymen as we understand it today, but it could also mean the amniotic sac, for instance. We're thinking of thumb verus index, versus middle, when they were just thinking, 'fingers'. Or, you know, sex-baby-rip-blood-membrane, I guess. But then, in Aristotle's time, the word was flung around to describe any membrane in the body. Pleura? Hymen. Mesentery? Hymen. Hymen? Go-fish. Soranus had to make a pretty huge leap. It's not like all the practitioners since Hipocrates engaged in the study of gynecology, so it went nowhere for a long time, pretty much until it became a big ego play. Anyway, the medical language used in medieval practice alluded to a virginal membrane, but it was far too vague to say that that was what they were talking about. Decorum, I suppose. Come on, guys. Science isn't a science. Unfortunately, that vagueness was enough of an impetus for dictionaries to start defining the hymen as a membrane that covers the surface of a virgin's cervix. Savonarola was the first to say that it tears and bleeds on penetration in (I think) the late fifteenth century. The reading audience would have considered the uterus to be the genital, not the vagina, so it would have poking straight into the incubation site.

Then the rest of Europe picked up the ball and by the time the Renaissance rolled around, the definition was solidified, if not the place(s) it lived. A hundred years later all of he doctors and midwives alike used the word hymen to explain one of the many spots where such a thing as a girly membrane could be located.

The great (re: ultimately useless) Galen made mention of hymen a century before Soranus. Seeing as how neither of the men would've ever inspected a woman, (midwives), I guess it speaks to the intellect of Soranus in that he mentions the vagina at all--even if he thought that the vagina itself was the hymen. Avicenna thought of it as bunch of tiny veins and ligaments that ruptured and bled at the loss of virginty, and Vesalius found the big H while performing dissections on the bodies of two females who he believed were virgins: a nun and a hunchback (because no one would have wanted her, and those are not my words).

That opened the floodgates and led to a bunch of weird crap that's almost as funny-crazy as infant drugging practices in the Victorian period. They were nuuuuuuts (to a pissing-off degree) about finding the Temple of Poon and having irrefutable proof of evidence of (non-)virginity. The trouble was that none of them could agree on its structure (did it actually parts?), differences in type of individual or signs of its rupture. They couldn't even keep their own stories straight! Seriously, take a peep at this garbage (as I imperfecly remember it):

If you're looking to find out if the person in question is a virgin, take some thread (uh-huh, we're boned already) and follow its length tip of nose to skull base, then around th neck. The thread should wrap around her neck perfectly, if too long or short...(don't finish the job). I don't know how to respond to that other than to say it was an obsession of the times, and seemingly a very good way to get what you want.
What do you do if you're a woman and the test doesn't go your way? 'The thread isn't too short, I tell you! I say, the offending remainder of the strand (of which you say there is currently no visibility) has been concealed by God! Un-thread me, hence!' And yet, at the same time, Paré said his medical observations led him to believe that the hymen simply didn't exist.

They did know about imperforates, though. There's this gross story from France via Paré about a girl who was (before surgery) so backed up with menstrual blood they thought she was pregnant. Let that one simmer. Holy sootikins, right?

Eventually the Vesalian model of a virginal seal won out and now you know the rest of the story. Those who can do should probably hide.

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at October 26, 2010 8:43 PM

I am giving serious thought to just following Jo "Mama" Besser around the internet with a tuffet and a bowl of popcorn.

Posted by: Kolby at October 26, 2010 9:14 PM

"Redundant hymen" would make a great handle for someone here on Pajiba. I'd use it, but I've (finally) settled on a username I like.

Posted by: Inara's Training Partner at October 26, 2010 9:36 PM

A classmate who had already lost her virginity advised me to put "several towels" under me for the first time. How horrifying. I was expecting horror movie stuff. Very disappointing and perplexing when not even one towel was needed.

Also, my mother forbade the use of tampons so as to protect my virginity. Ug.

So glad this myth is on its way out (I hope).

Posted by: Snuggiepants at October 26, 2010 9:42 PM

dahlia6, direct quote from the book I used as a source: "It is not too unusual, for example, to find virginity loss scenes in modern novels that include descriptions of a man's penis penetrating a woman's vagina by several inches before he abruptly hits the ironlike barricade of her hymen, implying that there is some sort of buried treasure wedged halfway up the vagina."
Tyler, It should be pretty obvious that I am pro-any kind of sex that happens between consenting adults (hell, I'd even be inclined to extend that to teenagers, provided they're emotionally mature). I think people should feel free to do anything they feel comfortable with, whether that's waiting until meeting someone special or sleeping with a new person each night. What I am not pro- is imposing one's beliefs on other people's personal lives. Sex means different things to different people. Don't assume that's what's right for you is right for everyone. (Full disclosure: I am a not-married, not-virgin who loves sex more than just about anything on Earth.)
Jean...your comment as written confuses the hell out of me. Surely you realize that it's the "virginity is special (for women)" argument that goes hand in hand with the women as whores/men as studs double standard, right?
Jo' mama thank you, I tried to find more details on the history of the myth, but they are kind of hard to come by and I couldn't put together a complete enough picture from what I did find to put in the article.

Posted by: dr. pisaster at October 26, 2010 10:05 PM

I did not bleed at all the first time I had sex (which I was eternally grateful for b/c I didn't want the guy to know it was my first time).

But the next guy I dated was far more well-endowed and made me gush blood.

It. Was. Awful.

I ran from the bedroom to the bathroom leaving a trail of blood on the floor (which the dog tried to lick up and my naked date had to shoo away), had to stand in the shower for 5 minutes to wash it all off, then had to use a Super Overnight pad the rest of the night because we were supposed to go out with friends and I still hadn't stopped bleeding.

It was worse than any period I'd ever had. Luckily, we were able to joke about how he "broke" me and from then on any offer of sex was viewed as "fixing" the damage.

Posted by: Laura at October 26, 2010 10:11 PM

25 year old virgin here encouraged by the column and freaked out by the comments. In college I had a horrid vaginal sonogram experience (they basically stick a camera on a stick inside you) that made me dread what sex would do to me. If your first time is a painful, bloody experience, how do you get up the courage to try again?
(For the record, I'm waiting until marriage for religious reasons. But once I've got a ring on it....)

Oh, and Hymen was the name of the Greek god of marriage. He turns up now and then in 18th century literature, which makes me giggle in the library so the other grad students glare at me.

Posted by: Empress at October 26, 2010 11:52 PM

@Lauren: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is some Vlad Tepes-level shit, how am I supposed to sleep tonight? What happened to that little girl? Did she join a nunnery?

@Kolby: I will consider this, if you bring candy. I'm going to need a detailed character study of the entire cast of Dr. Snuggles on my desk no later than Guy Fawkes Day. Then we'll talk alibis.

SO:

Are you ready to push it to the et cetera?

Are you fixed to challenge The Croyden Code?

Have you been totally bored with Tori Amos over the last decade?

Are you going to buy me a desk?

If so, we can confrence over Skoal, but remember: There's no 'win' in 'glory'.

@Dr. P: No problem, SOMEONE has to have some use for the trash mind housed in this ol' brain-firkin. I've got too much uselessness going on inside of my brain and I have to expiate it, less my uterus wanders off into a bad region and chokes up my humours. I already overheated it this afternoon counting change.

Also: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at October 27, 2010 12:03 AM

conference. damned skoal.

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at October 27, 2010 12:06 AM

@Tyler

As much as I appreciate the good doctor's strides towards demythologizing sex and moving towards more equality I chafe at her tendency to dismiss the "sex is special and ideally each person only shares it with one person" argument (and I'm not just referring to this article but also to her other articles on Pajiba)


Yeah, sex is NOT special and there's no other way to get over this primitive belief that virginity is some kind of real thing to be cherished without eliminating this belief that sex is special entirely. Sex for the purpose of reproduction is special. I'll give you that. When you're actually trying to create life, although kinda played out, you are doing something special. But sex for the purpose of reproduction is such a tiny fraction of the sex that people engage in that we should really just ignore this aspect of it when discussing sex.

And that's where these rules about virginity ultimately come from. Before the invention of Maury Povich, this need to guarantee the paternity of children so as not to be cuckolded, one of the more successful reproductive strategies by the way, was only achievable through ruthless control of female behavior and freedom. They myth of the hymen exists and persists to reassure nervous fathers that they do have some kind of ability to guarantee they will not be raising another man's children. And since we're not having children most of the time we have sex, and we have paternity tests now, we should really try and get over this sex is special bullshit. Amazing, long-term relationships can be had with people who have never had sex or who have had sex with hundreds of people. There is nothing fundamentally different about a virgin and a non-virgin, but our stupid biological hang-ups, carried over from a bygone era, lead us to continue to act as though there is.

Posted by: John G. at October 27, 2010 12:11 AM

I am surprised that some people act like we are "past" this as an important subject when in my own home town the idea of a hymen, the value of virginity, and (truly) the underlying idea that women were worthless as non-virgins is still very prevalent. Perhaps in some parts of the US or other parts of western society this is less of a reality, where the sexual revolution took true hold and people have moved on; however, in MANY parts of the States, it is still a serious social issue.

Tyler and Jean, I'm with Dr. P. There should NOT be anything culturally special about virgins (men or women). I think we should be teaching our children the positivity of sexuality. That includes their option to have sex or abstain depending on what they feel is right. And pretending that valuing virginity is not deeply rooted in a very objectionable past full of hatred and oppression is merely naive.

Jo Mama, totally interesting stuff. Blows the mind.

Dr. P, excellent topic, writing, and discussion, as always. Thanks for bringing this up. Also, thanks for the intelligent follow-up comments.

Posted by: AgoGo at October 27, 2010 12:28 AM

Also, John G.:

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP! Exactly.

Posted by: AgoGo at October 27, 2010 12:32 AM

Personally, I think "Temple of Poon" is a great band name.

Jo Mama, how fortunate that you come to Pajiba, where some of the more obscure tidbits lurking in the corners of your mind are relevant, interesting and appreciated. [I am actually not being sarcastic, for the record.]

Posted by: MM at October 27, 2010 12:35 AM

Hot damn, between seastar and Canadian Oracle, she with breadth and talent to see far and judge further, that was marvelous. Really, luv ya both, and if anything, I'm a little jealous at your factoid retrieval abilities. That's sexeh brain. And I wanted to ask Jo Mama Besser if there is a word from foregone centuries for the spontaneous combuster. I feel like I've read one somewhere, but I cannot recall.

--

The virgin 'myth' sounds awful. 60 percent of women don't bleed? And lots of you are women who should never feel lesser because somebody else is loading their damage or dead weight on you, but that's still 40% of young men that you're laying the fault on for doing it wrong, or what not. And though they may be, think of the 4th or 15th or 500th time you had sex, and say you haven't once "done it wrong." Please let the men and women new to the experience of sex remember that all this bedroom shadowplay is only someone's fault if only one is abusive and exploitive. Somewhat vague, but I won't knock a scene or two. Are you sure, Dr., that circumference doesn't factor into it? His and hers?

I can understand wanting to protect your own temples of Damanhur, so I will respect the virgins for their choice. Though it has become less of an issue as my 20s are nearly over, there are the rare virgins that could or couldn't go with me. And let me tell you, that little cherry of chastity matters a great deal, not only in the Brownie culture, but when it's given to you. Now, it may be rushing ahead, but a 19 yr old has recently blipped on the radar, the youngest sister of a guy I went to high school with, a dude I used to crack up and generally do nothing that might sully his opinion of me. She's great, not of her generation, and unpracticed. She makes loving fun and what's more, she started it.

Now you may judge me. Subconsciously, I've parceled away the thought that my wife would be much younger. I think I did it when I'd been told enough times I'd one day be a world ruler (first be anointed plebes, then potheads and ADbusters subscribers), but it kept around even after I'm content just writing about them IRL and creating fictional ones. (The South Park Sex Addiction episode, while crass, is more or less accurate. If women behave themselves when they have the money, it's because men care less about being taken advantage of.) While that may be more about wanting to spread virility and power(Yawn..), I became somewhat of a virgin fanatic. If I wasn't the man to deflower, and that is hardly the goal; but to be the first to teach and tread what is new territory for the girl, with the intent of doing with a level of caprice and expertise that will be difficult for men following to fulfill the intellectual/sensual experience of being mine first. I know these possessive pronouns must be making some of you uncomfortable, but I really think this next thing has been excluded from the Cherry Myth, and it's pretty fucking obvious.

Without all that religious noise, being a virgin is special because it is something new you're going through. It isn't the supposed blood. It isn't that you can give away the sexual act one time. It isn't that marriage makes it this gleaming gem of fidelity that tastes like ambrosia and feels of the Aether. Virgins should be culturally special because they represent innocence. But to compound the point, that doesn't mean that after they have given over their cherry, they should stop being special. An innocent, specially one who embraces the tenets of science and softer measures, who walks through this world and retains their innocence is spectacularly special. That's sexeh brain, too. It means that, like Jesus, innocence should appreciate in value, especially if it's you possessing it and dekaspecially if you find someone just like you. Sex is the badge, but it's as much your hang up if you feel you need to treat it carelessly to gain sophistication. I don't think I learned that until my fanaticism for virginity in its various forms expired organically.

Son, if you want to have sex with the first consenting adult you find, I want to say to him that he shouldn't take it too seriously. This is temporary existence, and the variables moreso. I would probably say something like this to my child, because I've seen and felt what it's like to hold on to a person for longer than she planned. But because he's my kid, I don't think I'd want to go around spoiling the world for him with all my cynical bullshit, whether I'm right or wrong. I'd want him to find the better parts, and tell me of his experiences so that I can help him through the worst bits.

I think having a daughter would eventually consume me in flames.

Which brings me back to virgins and my 19 year old dear that has be posting through my insomnia since my dreams are rather traumatizing tonight. Sex, whenever it happens, changes the relationship. Sex, when it happens for the first time, particularly if it comes with intimacy, say, between consenting adults, changes everything. For one, she has several brothers who'd kick my ass if I ever hurt her. But for most people, virginity is a state of mind, regardless of the physical attributes. It shouldn't be lorded or dreaded, losing or saving it. But Should isn't a question. It is special if you have it, and all us adults who write about it in Romance novels or sex columns have almost completely forgot about what it was like. Remember reading a book you loved for the first time. It's never like the first time. But that doesn't mean that the first book you ever loved made or ruined all the books that came after it.

Now, for you virgins, the point is to pick a someone great. Hopefully with some hearty pioneer who will travel along with you awhile to get you somewhere great. And stall all that bickering noise. Sex is no way to keep him. And not very much fun or healthy for you, when all is said and done. No one wants to read Robert Ludlum or Tucker Max again, for the first time.

Posted by: Jackseppelin at October 27, 2010 7:48 AM

dahlia6, direct quote from the book I used as a source: "It is not too unusual, for example, to find virginity loss scenes in modern novels that include descriptions of a man's penis penetrating a woman's vagina by several inches before he abruptly hits the ironlike barricade of her hymen, implying that there is some sort of buried treasure wedged halfway up the vagina."

Posted by: dr. pisaster at October 26, 2010 10:05 PM


Allow me a nerd moment here. Dr. Pisaster responded to my comment!!! OMGOMGOMG! Somebody touch my hand! You know you want to!

Okay, now that that's out of the way, I am suitably ashamed of myself and retreat to my nacho cavern.

Posted by: dahlia6 at October 27, 2010 8:20 AM

Tyler, It should be pretty obvious that I am pro-any kind of sex that happens between consenting adults (hell, I'd even be inclined to extend that to teenagers, provided they're emotionally mature). I think people should feel free to do anything they feel comfortable with, whether that's waiting until meeting someone special or sleeping with a new person each night. What I am not pro- is imposing one's beliefs on other people's personal lives. Sex means different things to different people. Don't assume that's what's right for you is right for everyone. (Full disclosure: I am a not-married, not-virgin who loves sex more than just about anything on Earth.)

Posted by: dr. pisaster at October 26, 2010 10:05 PM

I don't think that's what Tyler was going for, doc. It came across to me that your point was simply being made in reverse. You take issue with someone telling you to enshrine your virginity (or whoever's), and they take issue with being considered some sort of down-homey, violent, oppressive, redneck caricature.

The point you are both trying to make, and ending up at odds via phraseology (as I see it), is that we need to respect people. They're not asking you to think virginity is so great, just to not harp on the people who pick it. Just like you would rather non-virgins not have to wade through picket-holding crowds of crazy.

Posted by: coryo at October 27, 2010 9:14 AM

25 year old virgin here encouraged by the column and freaked out by the comments. In college I had a horrid vaginal sonogram experience (they basically stick a camera on a stick inside you) that made me dread what sex would do to me. If your first time is a painful, bloody experience, how do you get up the courage to try again?

Empress, I had a very similar experience with an internal ultrasound wand that my friends and I refer to as The Ultrasound Dildo of DOOM. I was a virgin when it was used on me, and it hurt like HELL. Also, I was a virgin up until a little over a year ago. I was 29 when I "lost it." I didn't hold my virginity near and dear to me, and I wasn't one for religious reasons. I just wanted to wait for a guy with whom I cared about, and that I'd be comfortable with naked. I was terrified that it would hurt, I'd had pain down there on so many occasions that I was sure I would never have sex comfortably. But he knew about my lack of experience, and took his time and it ended up being pretty great once we got past the "Ow ow OW" factor. It's more your nerves that makes it hurt.

Posted by: Julie at October 27, 2010 10:38 AM

I got my cherry popped in my twenties, in the truest sense of the word. Being a curious woman, I inspected my "lady business" thoroughly before and after. My hymen was one of the fimbriated kind which are basically a membrane, with only a few holes. It hurt like hell when I used tampons (only on a few occassions - when I felt it was worth the pain), that's why it was pretty much "untouched"...Result? Didn't work the first time I was attempting to have sex with a guy - no lube. With lube it worked, and it hurt (also because I was nervous...) a bit. Now, since having had sex for a few times, it looks now like a...normal hymen! So. My advice would be: Lube! Lube, lube. Depending on your hymen, you'll bleed. I did. Two days, but only slightly. And the times afterwards I also bled, even less. But...it was worth it! So very much worth it...

Posted by: hellena at October 27, 2010 12:23 PM

I know I’m late to this discussion, but Dr. Pisaster, you’re my hero.

I kind of gradually picked up that the whole hymen thing was a myth slowly, but it was driven home to me the…I don’t want to say the hard way, but the memorable way perhaps? Before my first PIV experience, I was messing around with a boyfriend who got a little…ah…enthusiastic with the fingers, which I was totally okay with (being into the rougher sex myself,) which led to some slightly drunken flipping out about why I was bleeding. But we took a few deep breaths and a couple of tissues and went right back at it. Four years later (and post much PIV sex), I was with a different guy, and the same thing happened. Only with a lot more blood. Anyways, having theoretically “popped my cherry” twice, without any involvement from the penis, it occurred to me that all this hymen stuff really was crap.

But I have to say, ladies and gentlemen, if this ever happens to a girl you are with, please react as gracefully as both these guys did. Because even though it wasn’t particularly painful in either case, it’s still a little freaky to realize that there’s an AWFUL lot of blood down there at a completely unexpected time of the month, and we may not have it in us to be reassuring you while we recover from a (temporary) mood killer and try to clean up.

And Empress, don’t get too freaked out. In both of my bleeding instances, any pain was the kind that I wholeheartedly wanted. The first time I actually had penis-in-vagina sex, it didn’t hurt at all. It was slightly uncomfortable for roughly five seconds, but other than that, it was just really awesome (granted, I, like the good doctor said above, love sex more than just about anything else in the world, so I guess I shouldn't assume that level of awesomeness for everybody.) Just make sure, when the time comes, that you relax as much as you can (which I realize is hard, this part isn’t key, just keep it in mind,) and that you are WELL lubricated (whether naturally or thanks to packaged lube or both,) and that you take it slow. If you do all that, it should be pretty pain-free experience (or at least only very briefly and slightly painful.) And hopefully awesome.

Posted by: GwenBear at October 27, 2010 2:41 PM

I was all ready to jump to my own defense in response to Dr. Pisaster, but then coryo did such a nice job of it for me:

"The point you are both trying to make, and ending up at odds via phraseology (as I see it), is that we need to respect people. They're not asking you to think virginity is so great, just to not harp on the people who pick it. Just like you would rather non-virgins not have to wade through picket-holding crowds of crazy."

I think that nicely sums up what I was trying to get at. I like to draw parallels to how vegetarians view meat eaters. A vegetarian will have their reasons for thinking that eating meat is wrong. They may (probably) think that the world would be a better place if everybody was vegetarian, or to put it another way, they may believe that vegetarianism is ideal. To me that doesn't mean that they are imposing their beliefs on meat-eaters' personal lives.

As for agogo's comment:

"And pretending that valuing virginity is not deeply rooted in a very objectionable past full of hatred and oppression is merely naive."

In my original comment I specifically acknowledge that many women have been abused under the banner of "virginity is sacred". That does not necessarily mean that any argument for the sanctity of virginity should be excused. Plenty of girls (and some boys) have abused their bodies through anorexia or bulimia in the name of body image, but that doesn’t mean that anybody encouraging exercise and healthy eating should be dismissed based on that.

Posted by: Tyler at October 27, 2010 3:40 PM

My first & second times both hurt, a lot. I bled the first time. Part of it was that I was with a guy who didn't give 2 sh*ts about me or my enjoyment (wasn't raped, just in a destructive phase of my life and had sex with guys I didn't care about), also I was probably really scared.

Sex now is extremely enjoyable (with someone I love for 4 years running), but this article totally smacked me in the face. Seems I'm the one who's a freak? It clearly felt, at the time, like my hymen was being BROKEN, torn open, like someone was trying to have sex with my armpit. All of my muscles kept trying to fight him off of me, and I kept fighting my muscles; I guess it was just my body's way of telling me to STOP!

I guess what I'm saying is, the "myth" of the hymen may be borne out of women who have sex when they probably shouldn't.

Posted by: nolalola504 at October 27, 2010 8:38 PM

I can't say that I remember ever having read about 'spontaneous combustion' in any kind of serious medical contexts. The stuff that I've come across (I didn't study anything important, just English, history and music...ugh. If I had any skills I'd have done something else, but I wasn't fooling myself), in the categories of what I'd call the ribald satirical, ribald instructional (many art pieces would fall into this), and just plain ol' ribald. A lot of the time from what I can tell of medieval stuff it was very earthy descriptions not interested in forwarding knowledge or titillation but meant to be comical, so the metaphors used for certain sexual acts or experiences were similarly earthy. A lot of that stuff was kind of mixed up with the scatological, as well ('The Miller's Tale'). I suppose they didn't have the soap to care about the difference. All of that Rabelais comes to mind, too: 'So, you say you want to end the fourth book with your character giving birth to a giant piece of excrement? Fine, I'm scheduled for a St. Vitus' Dance this afternoon, I don't care anymore.' There's also tons of that ribaldry in The Canturbury Tales, as I just mentioned which takes joy in giving witness to a bunch of random encounters in winking and unsparing language--the blind man regaining his sight right at the moment when his young and beautiful wife finally succumbs to the advanced of a well-endowed suitor whilst in a tree. There was so much stratification of audience. Chaucer worked for Richard II, so something like The Book Of The Duchess was far more respectable.

The reading that I've encountered might have joked around some about matter of the body and bawdy, but since it was considered to a mark of great feminine penury to encourage or enjoy sex from her husband, things like her pleasure weren't considered germane to the conversation. As long he got his rocks off, pregancy resulted at some point and she didn't interefere, all was as it should be.

I did forget to mention yesterday explicitly (no pun intended) that the 'cherry myth' isn't even relegated to the land of the hymen and/or expulsion of blood in our giggling history of Clam Diving. The Gitano believed that every virgin contained within her body a grape (uva) filled with a yellowish liquid. As she was penetrated for the first time, the grape would burst and the liquid called the 'honra' would be unleashed and the girl would literally lose her virginity on the sheets, as the uva and honra were not symbolic of, of sign of viginity: they were the physical components of virginity itself. Of course the sheets would later be inspected. To make sure that a non-virgin wasn't marrying into their midst, the girl would be examined very closely and thoroughly by a group of married women from within the community (welcome to the humiliating world of marriage). If everything was small, pink and pert, she was good to go. However, if she had been sexually active or had despoiled her flower by distressing its tissues through activities like wearing pants or riding a bicycle, which evidently were risky endavours, it was believed that this could darken the colour of the tissues and make them, I don't know, floppy. If she gets through all of this alright, they'll knot the stained article to perserve its juices, sing, clap, throw flowers on her and toss candied almonds on her bare belly and thighs. Hooray, you win?

Ever heard of collecting a man's earwax, pressing it against the woman's vulva and waiting for her to cry out in pain? Old, old folklore from blacks in the southern states. She should be sensitive to a man's secretions, so, finish that sentence for me, it's gross for me to imagine.


For a long time, I had believed that the pencil test was just an unsuccessful way for me and my similarly-overstuffed sistren to feel bad our decolletages. Not so, it was a virginity test considered to be reliable well into the 20th century. You all know it, it falls, she 'passes'. Who fucks ya, baby? Well, by my cup size, damn near everyone. Hooray, I lose! Hooray.

Ever heard of a piss-prophet? They were the proto-urologists of the Renaissance who (under the assumption that wanton women can fake the signs of virginity--casting down her eyes in the presence of men, being silent in the presence of men, showing shame, modesty and yet managing to carry herself with a great amount of something approaching poise in the presence of bunnies, wait, no silly--MEN) administered a series of tests: listening to the woman urinate, giving her potions and using their observations to deduce the location of the urine falling from the vulva. They believed that since intercourse changed the whole geography of the area, urination locations would vary between virgin and non-virgins. Earlier incarnations of the piss-prophet also employed fumigation techniques, but don't worry, they used the best coal.

Back on track:

In the fictional literature that accompanied the rise of city life, a lot of works focused on the travails of servant-girls or other types of girls often, but not always new to the city. A lot of knowing coyness on the part of the female would ensue. She would have to outsmart her urban would-be 'suitors' in the form of employers, employment opportunities run by deceivers who in truth worked for brothels, everyone on the street and virgin-hunters. This literature was much saucier, coming from the point of view of the straight-talking girl who lives by her wits. Stuff like Fanny Hill, Moll Flanders, The Roaring Girl et al traded in this. With that increase in the interest of that type of character, it became more acceptable for a girl to voice sexual displeasure with a man's member or performance, as lon as it was addressed for strictly entertainment purposes. They often don't seem to be the instigator, either. Someone will just whip it out, or something to that degree, and the heroine proves her intelligence and virtue by summarily dismissing the cad. There would be talk about someone's pendulum being too small for the clock, so no ringing of bells shall ensue, for a instance. Sometimes it would work out for these virgins in the city (Pamela gets married), or not (Clarissa gets raped).

There's a lot of sex talk in ancient literature too, but again it was framed in satire from what I know--Lysistrata, Satyricon and the like.

I don't think I addressed that question at all. I'm working with the limited resources I've got.

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at October 27, 2010 8:44 PM

Way late on this (work), but just had to observe (in case no one else did) that I've never understood why sexually inexperienced females (ie, "virginal") are considered desirable. You wouldn't want the least experienced doctor to do your open-heart surgery or the least experienced airline pilot to fly your plane, why would you want an inexperienced female to handle your johnson (or worse, just lie there and do nothing because she doesn't know what to do)?

I do get (ie, understand) the "first to plant the flag" thing, but I still think it's stupid. Although not surprising, I guess. I am amused that so many men think they're good enough at sex that they're teaching the virgins anything worthwhile. I suspect a lot of them are teaching the virgins to a) dislike sex b) be bad at sex or c) both.

Posted by: Slash at October 27, 2010 8:50 PM

@Jo "Mama" Oh man, don't get me started on Pamela. In the first half, she secretly journals sexual harassment and assault at the hands of her employer. Somehow, she always forgives him and finds a way to explain why it's her fault. ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WARNING SIGNS GET OUT NOW! But then he reads her diary, repents of his creepitude, marries her, and the story becomes a tale about humility and dressing to befit one's station. WTF.

Posted by: Empress of All the Russias at October 27, 2010 9:02 PM

Samuel Richardson, ladies. But something like that was always considered to be the woman's fault. She would have been leading him on in some way without realizing it, and instead of complaining, girls should bear that burden and just dignity the guy out of harassment. Hell, it still goes on today. When I was in my late teens, I was very, very nearly r****, at a dinner party/concert. Wouldn't you know, I had probably done something without realizing it and inadvertently inflamed his (I later found out) recidivist passions. If by something they meant 'performing and never ever making eye contact with this stranger--who they knew was a menace', yeah, that. But I'm so grateful that you put me danger, everyone. So, no support there. It was largely due my own quick thinking and highly capable actions that ensured that none of us (I wasn't the only female my age there, just the only one he happened to...whatever, that day) would ever see him again. Someone had to give a shit about us. But that's the rub, because the assumption was that if something really bad was happening, if I were really in danger...nevermind that I stole a pair of car keys and held the car hostage until its owner agreed to hear me out, there would have been more of a scene, or I wouldn't have been to protect myself. I have never had my heart turn away from so many people in such a quick moment as I did when the implications of that set in. But that's how it can turn sometimes, right? If you're living by your wits, you've just got too many to have any use for what 'traditional manhood' can offer. Luckily, that's not something that comes smashing into my face too often, but that thinking still pops up. I didn't see it because I stand that show anymore, but didn't HIMYM have an episode about this very thing very recently? I hate that self-infantilization, oh, boy.

I think it underestimates both genders, to think there are enough people who believe that we females should need to be constantly embattled lest we incur nothing by snide contempt when we need real help, or that the only support and/counsel that a man can offer a women is in the useless, condescending 'there, there, dum-dum' category. That in times of crisis, it's still about massaging egos or getting them bruised. The decorum of danger, ugh, you make my heart hurt.

I was glad that ultimately nothing came out of it and I was able to gently and behind the scenes get a person of interest to notice that the slug was violating probation in some other way, so I wouldn't have to say anything to my family. I was still a wimpy teenager, 'pure as the driven babe in the woods', so I went the 'get results' route. Not entirely proud, but I just wanted the episode done and unvisited forever. But I decided to cut off a lot of relationships that day. Aren't humans wonderful?

But those girls had to put up with some horrifying trauma, and since they had no way out, their employers preyed upon them mercilessly. Of course, the 'I was just being friendly' argument was doled out over and over, but for the most part I don't think anyone really cared one way or the other. They weren't 'fallen women' yet so philanthropists with oft-good intentions but often with no real clue couldn't harangue them about their path. I remember reading an episode in Pepys about all of the fun he had each day fondling and groping his girl when she was assisting him with his dressing. She didn't seem to enjoy the advances, but it's all in good fun. Re-state, it's all in HIS good fun until his wife walked in, then he would have to pretend that he was being good.

Wait, what the hell was I talking about?

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at October 27, 2010 10:24 PM

is what's transpired more innocuous or flamey?

I feel your censure, even though I did need to look up your references. And I appreciate, separately, the trivia, churlish though I may be. Not that you need anyone to tell you that what you've learned is next to valuable. I do like subtle cut that I am no Knight arrant.

My disclosure was more or less made because it was 4:30 in the morning, and some other guy was sharing his chlamydia with everyone on a tiff last week. I just got home right now, so I am eating my chicken sandwich. I have the access to mud, but prefer not to wallow in it. I believe, in academia you'll know, it is championed as idealistic presentiment getting the way of common sense.

I know that I didn't have any problems with you ever before, as you're the lamp under the bush, out for a bit of air. The Enlightener in my book. A Valkyrie of Hallowed Halls. I still think it's queer to beat the funny out of dead men. How many sylph will satisfy? And, so, now what?

The word I asked about does exist.

I did not mean to cut by calling you the Canadian Oracle. I was complimenting you as Barbara Gordon. A curious observation, I know, but hardly one to bend the spoon over. I just though you'd take it the other way and I'd get an etymology lesson. I apologize that the rest of my previous comment was so discourteous.

@slash, eh, yeah, unh huh.

Posted by: Jackseppelin at October 28, 2010 2:54 AM

Gotta agree with Slash. I believe it was Lewis Black who said he'd pass on 70 virgins for a couple of broads who've been around the block a few times.

Not only do they usually know what they're doing, but they know what they like, and you can get down to giving and receiving pleasure.

Or, I suppose you can stick to sleeping exclusively with women who don't know you're no good at it to keep your ego fluffed.... And just to be clear, I am indeed casting aspersions at Jackseppelin, author of the "I am the creepy guy in your bar" manifesto above.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at October 28, 2010 9:29 AM

It's lovely to meet women who want to wait and have sex with someone they feel close to and respect.

Does this imply that everyone else is having sex with folks they aren't close to and/or don't respect? Because I would find such assumption baffling as hell. I took the time to get to know my lovers, to make sure we has mutual respect and trust, that we wanted the same thing - whether that be a long term relationship or fun on the run. Sometimes, sex with a really good friend is simply divine. I guess my confusion is over the assumption that there would be only one respectable person with whom one could feel close.

Posted by: Reba at October 29, 2010 12:14 PM

It's probably days after the fact, since I've been partying with Hammmer Horrors all weekend, but I'm not into starting fights, trolling or anything of that nature. I can take gentle ribbing and am fully aware that I'm less loquacious than 'needs edit button' in my writing. I just come around to shoot the shit, I wasn't meaning to attack anyone in my post. Flame wars can be, um, interesting to read but I've never had any desire to be part of one, it's just not my style. If we had a misunderstanding, I honestly didn't notice it, but if there was some tension I wasn't trying to incite it and I'm glad it's over.

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at October 31, 2010 9:06 PM

humongous register you've have in hand

Posted by: Mohammad Guerinot at December 6, 2010 2:27 PM

Depreciation of valuation that follows trucks accidents, is very unlucky . That God is on our side.A slight physical antipathy most probably helps.And that friend shall be down inside of me.

Posted by: Car Diminished Value at January 10, 2011 5:31 AM

Thats pretty eye-opeiningi! I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Posted by: Fat Princess at February 25, 2011 10:39 AM