Pajiba

I'm to the point now where, to borrow from Bill Murray, anything different is good. This sounds like a steaming injection of fresh crazy.

Aziz Ansari

Wheeeeee, I'm so glad this guy is starting to pop up everywhere. Go Human Giant!

I'm glad to read this was good, I was fearing it would disappoint. Those promo clips that are getting aired with Farris doing shots have cracked me the hell up. Chick is funny.

Just saw it and Wow it's darker than the promos. I don't know if I felt great laughing at too much of it. I did but it was almost to relieve the awkwardness or the craziness or something.
You think he's just a little off and then he legitimately beats the shit out of some dudes and you realize he's taking meds and his wacky Latin sidekick is doing heroin.

Great review Dan. I'm really pleased to hear that the movie is good and dark. I like that kind of film the most. I wonder what that says about me?

And no word on the controversial date rape scene...

I totally wrote this off after seeing the previews. Now I have to un-write it off knowing that someone involved with Eastbound and Down is at the helm.

"You're fucking out. I'm fucking in."

Coming out of the shadows for this one:

Saw this 2 weeks ago at an advanced screening, and think it's Rogan's best work to date (save for Freaks and Geeks). Shocking, uncomfortable, and unbelievably funny, I loved this movie. The audience at the screening gasped in amazement about 3 times, and I gasped along with them (the end scene alone is worth coming to see this thing). Just a great comedy all around.

Also, Michal Pena NNEDS to be in more comedy.

I'm really looking forward to seeing this, and then seeing it again so I can sneak into Dragonball Evolution and see if it really is the worst film of all time.

Wow, I never would've guessed, watching the trailers that this film would be so dark and deep. If anything, it just looked like Paul Blart: The Early Years.

I'm just glad Rogen keeps making solid movies. I never want him to stop making movies. He's fantastic, and hilarious, I can't believe he's fucking younger than I am, and damn he's been looking foxy lately. I hope he sticks around for a long while.

This was destroyed in the Chicago Tribune, so I knew it was going to be a decent film. Like bucdaddy, or whatever he is calling himself these days, I may have to go alone.

Bucdaddy, it is time to go to a symbol. I suggest a version of the sign that has a slashed red circle over a bull shitting, your version should just allow the bull to shit.

"Dan isn't a scumbag asshat "

Posted by: replica at April 10, 2009 7:53 PM

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No.

That would be one Dustin Rowles.

Wow, too great comedies in two weeks? In early Spring? Honestly, I'm more than a little weirded out at this point. Isn't this usually the time where they crap out a bunch of really shitty movies?

That being said, I totally can't wait to see this.

Ariel: Only if you can also catch the first 14 minutes of Dragonball Z, I hear they are absolutely unbelievable.

Yeah, seriously. I was really interested in hearing someone whose reviewing skills I respected give their opinion on the 'controversial rape scene.' WTF? So what were your thoughts?

Date rape scenes are just not funny. Not even darkly. Jumping on a passed out chick, even if she "consents" half-way through the act in a beyond shit-faced stupor is not true consent.

What blows my mind is that the Time reviewer thought that scene was the best part of the movie..

http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2009/04/time-critic-raves-for-the-observe-report-rape-scene.html

Jesus, that reviewer is really buying the meme that passed out women subconsciously want some guy to mount them and get their rocks off in the off chance they get a tingle 'down there' for a minute or two. Yeah, that's a likely scenario.

Great...another movie showing the rape of vulnerable women as an acceptable situation. Like that's a new one.

Just once I want to see a mainstream Hollywood movie where a man is passed out drunk and raped and the critics see it as a great example of dark humor.

Caught it tonight. First thing to say is that it is funny, but in parts. There's a stop-start quality to its humor where the funniest parts are hilarious, but there are segments that are really, really comedy-free.

Rogen's good as Ronnie, who is equal parts failure and bluster. Faris is just as good as Brandi, the hard-partying slutty cosmetics girl that's the object of Ronnie's lust. As for the "date rape" scene, it didn't seem to play that way -- rather it comes off as a desperate, disgusting coupling event.

Just to add to the cast shoutouts: Michael Pena is hilarious, Ray Liotta is so mean and yet so funny and Collette Wolfe is sweet and adorable.

I'll say this much: it's not for everyone. When you get that much flipping slow-mo penis on screen, it's clear that Paul Blart this ain't.

Just once I want to see a mainstream Hollywood movie where a man is passed out drunk and raped and the critics see it as a great example of dark humor.

Posted by: Cleveland at April 11, 2009 1:40 AM
---
Don't know if you can Netflix it, but waaaaay back in the day there was a TV movie (when there used to be such things) called "It Couldn't Happen to a Nicer Guy," where a man whose car breaks down gets picked up by a hot woman in a convertible who drives him to a country road, pulls a gun on him and orders him to strip and fuck her, then dumps him naked along the road. He presses the case that he was raped, takes her to court, while all his buddies wink-wink and nudge-nudge him and basically nobody believes he didn't ask for or enjoy it.

Hard to imagine we were more adventurous as a culture 35 years ago ... 35? ... OK, I just Googled it and damn if I didn't nail the time frame. It was a 1974 movie with Paul Sorvino, Michael Learned and Adam Arkin.

Without the benefit of having viewed it, and only going by I have read here. How is it a rape if she consented before she passes out?

Exactly BSlim, if a lady gives you permission and she passes out, or is rendered unconscious for any reason, it is not rape.

Well, we aren't talking about that scene right now, for one thing. For another, though it might be hard- try to imagine how a female could internalize that scene. And Anna Faris got to finally play another drunk, damaged slut? Wow! Color me impressed. I hardly ever see those types of female characters on screen.

Keeping in mind that I consider what he did to be assault- it's awfully trivializing to simply call him perverted. What does bipolar disorder have to do with anything? That lead to him date raping the girl? Huh.

I'm not even going to discuss whether or not consent was given at this point- that's a minor detail compared to the fact that you dismissed it because her character was a horrible person.

Posted by: Tracer Bullet at April 11, 2009 9:29 AM

Going by strict interpretation, most college sex, after pub sex and my very own conception were by means of "rape"? Does it apply if the guy is drunk and/or drugged too?

Then I've been raped dozens of times.

Was Faris' character passed out (which would make it rape) or just uninterested and bored with the proceedings (but still awake and consenting)?

Unless there is a pre-existing agreement that unconsciousness may or may not come into play during said sex act, continuing copulation with one or more participants is in violation of their mental and physical well-being. Now, we're only having to talk about this because there are thousands of post-adolescent retards that make it well into their 30s nowadays, and delineating the moral high ground is safer than not. Being serious for one sentence more, there is already plenty of non-consensual sex that gets tacked up with being too far in the tank.

The legal burden is a few steps in front of the moral burden.

There is a small belt of gray area there. But here's the line: if a chick was gonna hook up with you because you were two horny people on a given night, and for whatever reason she becomes too drunk or faded to reciprocate foreplay once initiated, you're not getting your rocks off. Still plenty of time to damage each others' psyches the following night or with the next person. That's the gentlemanly thing to do.

I haven't seen the movie so I can't judge, but Courtney at feministing made a good point that, regardless of whether the specific instance of the movie is rape, it blurs the lines of what constitutes consent and that's dangerous. A lot of rapes occur not because some guy made a decision to rape a girl, but because they were both drunk and he assumed that she was willing because she came home with him and he went ahead without realizing she'd changed her mind/passed out. Playing something like this for humor implies to a certain type of idiot that fucking a girl who's unconcious is okay - she wanted it anyway. Probably not what they intended, but a little scary nonetheless.

Oh, and let's not discard the other possibility here.

What IF!

Let's explore the premise, that they were trying to portray this as some fucked-up rape situation? The writer/filmmaker was presenting an individual willing to go through with such an act. When, exactly, did it become off-limits to present a "date rape" in a movie?

Feminist are lesbians but with less fashion sense, both hate dick but won’t hesitate with strapping on a strap on.

S. pisaster I’m just saying that feminist in general believe that every action done under the sun is somehow geared towards doing harm to women. Why can’t the scene just be about a drunk guy fucking a drunk girl, nothing more nothing less?

It stopped being about a drunk guy and a drunk girl simply getting lucky, because one of them passed out and the other person just kept fucking them.
If someone passes out for any reason while you are fucking them, you STOP. End of.
If you are any kind of decent person you stop. You make sure they are not going to die. Or having a seizure, or in such pain they passed out. It doesn't matter if you are drunk or high yourself. If you see them passed out you stop.
Is that really so hard to figure out? It's not shades of grey or any other bullshit excuse either.
And if you START fucking them while they are passed out you deserve to end up in jail with a smegma encrusted cock rammed up your ass, then down your throat.

I haven't seen it either, but my impression is that it's uncomfortable until he pauses and she yells, "Did I tel you to stop, motherfucker?" Which is supposedly getting the biggest laughs in the movie, so there's a case to be made that it isn't really rape, or that she's too fucked up as a person to care. It's the implied "sure, she's insanely drunk and passing out, but it's okay she still wants it," that worries me, because again, lots of actual real world rapes play out this way.

Pookie, if you don't have the skills to make her squirm don't bitch to me.

Yeah grinder, it's always the man's fault. Trust me honey, every women that's ever been with me got off, and that's on the real. I make it my business to make sure a bitch cums when she's fuckin' with me.

Not stopping when fucking a passed out person may be so legally hard to enforce it makes it a moot point. But it doesn't stop it from being rape.

Posted by: grinder at April 11, 2009 2:55 PM
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I respectfully disagree, there IS a difference between LEGAL and MORAL/IMMORAL acts. It's all in the consequences, you see. The legal ones are pretty much defined by what has come to be called "mandatory sentencing."

At least in the U.S.

*The premise* sorry

Having actually seen in the movie and scene in question:

The rape scene occurs while Faris' character is very obviously unconscious, following a night of heavy drinking and practically ODing on pain meds. Rogen's character does seem kind of hesitant mid-rape, wondering if it's the right thing to, you know, rape this girl. She then temporarily regains consciousness, still clearly out of it, and says "Did I tell you to stop, motherfucker?"

I think it's clearly presented as date rape, as both the actors in question have referred to it that way several times. This would not bother me if it were presented as incredibly fucked up, like most of Ronnie's behaviour in the rest of the movie. The scene, however, really is played for laughs, and in an interview, Seth Rogen even tries to say the whole date rape--which he admitted it was--is made magically okay and even hilarious the second Brandi mutters for him not to stop. Even though she is clearly still barely conscious.

That's what's so disturbing to me. The justification of it by the actors while not in character.

The scene, however, really is played for laughs, and in an interview, Seth Rogen even tries to say the whole date rape--which he admitted it was--is made magically okay and even hilarious the second Brandi mutters for him not to stop. Even though she is clearly still barely conscious.

That's what's so disturbing to me. The justification of it by the actors while not in character.

Posted by: moe at April 11, 2009 3:09 PM

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Since I haven't seen it, and if that's as you say, I will admit to seeing how that is disturbing for some folks.

I still stand by my position though. And that INCLUDES, the freedom the filmmaker has to present a date-rape in his work. Hell even a full blown rape.
Example 1: Charles Bronson's Death Wish. His whole revenge trip comes as a result of his wife, maid and daughter's extremely graphic rapes.

Example 2: American Me with our very own Captain Adama from BSG, male on male ass-rapings were presented as casually as a prison...eh...ass raping, I guess.

Prison rape is different in that it is an act of power, and not an act of love making.

On the other hand, I think you have to consider the context of the movie. Dark comedies play on an audience's discomfort after having laughed at something you would normally cringe at. This movie seems to be full of that; drug use, drunkeness, flashers, trauma, violence, date rape. Good dark comedies aim for surprising a chuckle out of you when say, someone gets stuffed into a wood chipper or, in this case, sort of wakes up during the middle of, and encourages a date rape. So (and again, I haven't seen the movie but I'm going by Dan's reviews and the comments here) I don't think that by showing the date rape scene and surprising a laugh out of you, it's necessarily saying 'oh date rape is hilarious!', the same way it isn't saying 'beating people up is hilarious! go do it!'.

It's a movie playing on people's disgust at bad situations, surprising a laugh out of them and counting on their discomfort after that. From what I've read of the movie, we know this guy is disturbed, so I don't think the filmmakers are glorifying any of his actions, or saying date rape is okay and hilarious.

remember when seth "raped" katherine and she got pregnant?
exactly.

Figgy, are you telling me that in the history of comedy, no comedian has ever made a joke about prison rape and no one laughed?

Thanks, Dustin. It's becoming more commonplace for mass media outlets to explore dyfunctionalism as normal, which I appreciate, but knowing how uncomfortable this film can be at times makes me more inclined to both see and appreciate it. Normal human life is sure as hell dark and awkward, and I respect that Rogen can explore more than the funny-awkward "happy ending" genre.

Date rape happens, also. I imagine the tragedy (and controversy) of the scene is that sex, whether appropriate or in-, IS so complicated, hurtful, confusing, difficult to talk about ... I'm curious to see it, but do worry about its misinterpretation to the general public. Who knows.

Yeah -- about that Deliverance crap -- NO ONE who's actually SEEN that movie EVER laughs during that scene.

Asscheese.

Pookie, I know you are arguing just to argue but we all know a man/woman waking up their spouse/partner/loved one in a very pleasurable manner is much different than breaking into someone's bed and doing the same thing.
Stop being a shitter.
And if you make a woman cum everytime, who is this cold fish lady who just lays there? Let me guess. It happened to a friend of a friend who told you all about it?

tried to take me on the kitchen floor.

Not at all sorry I let her.

--------------------------------------------
OMG, you poor thing.

You were raped my friend.

Silent Tears on the Kitchen Floor: The Commenter Formerly Known as BucDaddy Story.

Lifetime, television for victims...

*smirk*

Why don't you tell me.

Then I gotto go ass all the way.

But there are a lot of people who think exactly like you posted. You did push it over the edge at the end though. But I was pretty pissy by then.

O’Connor, you’ve called me a Douche and AssCheese in two different post in about two minutes time for simply having a different opinion than you. How very open minded and progressive of you. George, though they may try and try, don’t let them get you down kiddo.

>>"A lot of rapes occur not because some guy made a decision to rape a girl, but because they were both drunk and he assumed that she was willing because she came home with him and he went ahead without realizing she'd changed her mind/passed out."

The girl gave drunk consent, but the guy is supposed to know, while he is also drunk, that she didn't really mean it? If they were both wasted, how in the world is it fair that he be expected to make a better/more sound decision than is expected of her in the same position?

I sincerely don't understand why if a girl and a guy are both too inebriated to make good decisions, the onus falls only on the guy & it's 'rape'.

Another question: I have a male friend who was drunk at a party, passed out, and woke up with some chick on top of him and they were having sex. Was he raped?

lelnguye, your idea there is pretty interesting to me too - I wondered how Dan would cover this film based upon his recent experiences/encounters with Seth Rogen. I was really interested to parse out the 'tone' of this piece - was he saying it was harsh, but liked the idea of SETH ROGEN doing something controversial, or was he trying to like it, because he liked the guy, or was it a challenging work of subversive comedy that was pulled off artfully?

It seems to me that Dan thought the latter, and meant it. I've read enough of his stuff by now that I'm confident he's no panderer - and that's why I'll probably end up seeing it. In fact, I have benefited from trying out stuff I read about here that at first blush left me cold.

Seeing that clip out of context though, left me with quite a 'Very Bad Things' flashback...another film that I think intended to be in this category, but failed so very badly. Maybe this is in the same spirit, only successful.

"if a girl and a guy are both too inebriated to make good decisions"

In the movie, Rogen's character is not drunk. He is sober and she is drunk enough to pass out.

This scene is rape and I will now send all individuals involved in the making of this film to my misogynist concentration camp.

Sincerely,
Feminazi

Well Pookie,
Take comfort in the fact that all of the intelligent, cock-loving women of Pajiba all recognize that SLC friend was indeed raped.

"...who was drunk at a party, passed out, and woke up with some chick on top of him and they were having sex. Was he raped?

Posted by: SLC at April 11, 2009 5:18 PM

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*sobs*

*slowly slides down tiled bathroom wall*

*Phil...Silent All These Years by Tori Amos...Live*

*....*

The nerve of this film. I can't believe a dark comedy is playing a dark, disturbing act... for laughs?!?

You people complaining must be an absolute hit at parties.

It could have been worst BSlim, you could have woke up with some guy on top of you.

Let me see if I got this right. Pink Hulk, you walk around with the name “Pink Hulk,” but you think George is the one with issues?

Grinder, do you really want to base your fate on the men of Pajiba agreeing with you?

As far as George is concerned, he expressed his opinion of what he felt within the context of the film.

Are you gonna go on a, "he's advocating rape" trip

FUCK .YOU.

Why don't you just come out and say what you really wanna say?

You KNOW what I mean?

Here's a hint:
it starts and ends with the male always being considered GUILTY....riiiight?

All men are potential rapists. All heterosexual sex is just some degree of rape. All men shall go to my misogynist's gas chamber.

Sincerely,
Feminazi

Wow. This thread is well and truly pooched at this point, but I just came from the movie and I wanted to put in my two cents anyway:

Observe And Report is one of the most "wrong" films I have ever seen. It's funny, but very dark. Think of the most screwed-up episodes of 'South Park' from recent years -- the headless Britney Spears episode, for example -- and you'll have an idea of the type of humour to be found here.

As for the so-called "rape" scene, it could be read as such if you stick to legal definitions. Rogan's character stops when he thinks that Brandy is passed out, but then Brandy tells him to keep going. There is a moral decision-making process in play, which lets the makers of the film off the hook ever so slightly.

In any case, this scene happens to take place in the same movie where *SPOILER ALERT* a man is tasered for threatening the security guards who put a locking device on his car tire; a drug dealer is beaten nearly to death with a club in front of his own ten-year-old son ; a gang of skater kids are beaten up with their own skateboards; and a man is shot and seemingly killed with a shotgun blast and, when it is learned he is still alive, Rogen's guard character drags his bloody, half-naked body to a golf cart and delivers him to the police station * END SPOILER ALERT *. Rape is a serious matter, make no mistake; but the scenes of violence take up a lot more screen-time here and, collectively, are far more troubling.

I'm glad I saw this film, mainly for the reasons Daniel Carlson outlines above. Still, the line is definitely pushed in this film, and crossed several times as well. If Lars von Trier had directed Paul Blart, it might have ended up like this. Proceed with caution.

If I'm not mistaken didn't the broad wake up and ask the dude, "did I tell you to stop, motherfucker?"

SLC I never said she gave consent. I said "came home with him." If a guy assumes that constitutes consent and has sex with her without making sure that yes, she really is willing, then yeah, it's rape. If they're both drunk and she makes it clear she's willing, that's a pretty different situation. But being drunk doesn't excuse you from having sex with someone when they are too out of it to make it clear to you that they don't want to. And yes, your friend was raped. And just to clarify things, BSlim rape is not a legal construct. We prosecute it these days, but rape was still rape when it was perfectly legal to do it to your spouse, or to a member of a group you were at war with, etc. It's unfortunately not possible to prosecute it in all cases but that doesn't make it not rape.

Well, as Baby Bullet is a girl, I'd call her, at minimum, the victim of a sexual assault. Were Baby Bullet a boy, I'd call him, at best, a goddamn sex criminal. This isn't two drunken sophomores screwing in a dorm room. He's sober, they're relative strangers and she's incoherent.

Let this go, Slim. Otherwise you're going to wake up tomorrow thinking, "Holy fuck. I spent my entire Saturday arguing that pouring the pork to an unconscious woman somehow isn't rape. What the fuck is wrong with me? Do I need Jesus?" Then you'll stumble into a church wearing one shoe and a "Party Naked" t-shirt only to discover it's Easter Sunday and that won't be good for anybody.

Let me correct myself Tracer, In the African American community religion is the greatest scam going.

Don’t get me started on religion, the majority of the preachers I knew growing up tried to fuck everything that wasn’t nailed down. That’s why my head is so fucked up now, religion will absolutely ruin you if you listen to it long enough. Trust me BSlim, confession is good for the soul.

There's an interview with the film's director Jody Hill on The AV Club. He says that the studio made him add the part where she wants him to keep going. He thought it was better without it.
I don't think we're supposed to sympathize with Seth Rogan's character. There's also some talk that his character is actually fantasizing about some of the events we see.
*SPOILER*
When he shoots the flasher at the end of the film, everyone cheers for him. I think the idea is that a lot of this is happening in his head and his problems are worse than we see. It adds another dimension to the movie.

Poor Dan, he always get stuck with the reviews where the comments go wild.

ah, the sad truth. men and women may or may not have a difference of perspective on an issue.
yes, a very serious, very heinous issue.

as a man who's been raped (and left wanting for more), may i just say, that, well, damn, i miss Oz.

It's more that I'm surprised, and a little sad, to see people taking the notion of sexual assault of a person in a vulnerable state so lightly.

Posted by: meaux at April 11, 2009 7:47 PM

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Once *AGAIN* how is it an assault, sexual or otherwise, when there was consent!!!

Are you seriously willing to put a fellow human being in PRISON for a consented FUCK, just because someone passed out?

Are you... really?

*Consented*, buddy. That's the magic word.

Like I said, not taking issue with the scene in the movie (haven't seen it--sounds creepy and at the very least borderline-rapey, but I'll withhold judgment). I don't disagree with you, Slim--if both parties go in willing, and one passes out and the other one is a little past the point of good judgment and keeps on going, then no. I don't think that's a go-to-jail-do-not-pass-go kind of situation. It's not the classiest move, but I've been drunk and devoid of common sense before.

Posted by: meaux at April 11, 2009 8:02 PM

Original consent has been my point all along.

As for the rest of you people, thank you, for confirming my lack of faith in people, you're just as willing to go along with a mob as easily as the most rabid extremist in any sub-culture.

All it takes is a word (in this case, rape).

We suck.

Slim, though you may have been a smidge defensive, you don't suck. I think knees on both sides of the argument have been jerked (and I hope your groin didn't take too much damage).

Barbado, there is a state of intoxication leaves you actually incapable of giving legal consent. If your argument was that there was "consent", because a girl so drunk she had vomited on herself and passed out drunk slurred something that did not in any way indicate that was in fully possession of her senses then I accept that that's what you really believe. It's a bad argument, and frankly a disgusting one, but I understand that's where you're coming from.

The law recognizes that there are people who are incapable of giving legal consent, whether due to age, mental abilities, or drug/alcohol intoxication. This situation falls into the last category. If a drunk girl is participating in sex enthusiastically, it's safe to say she gives consent. If she's lying on the bed in her own vomit, it's probably best to take a rain check.

If he was also so drunk that he didn't understand the she was too out of her mind drunk to consent, I wouldn't see that as rape.

Or it would be mutual rape.

BUT HE WAS SOBER!

Yeah, dark comedy so I'm not that concerned with the movie. But it seems like we've moved over to talking about real life.

Throwing gas on the fire here, but ... I find it interesting that while even in the case of one human being killing another the law allows some latitude for degree of culpability, from murder through manslaughter through justifiable homicide through wartime, most of the commenters here (with the exception of meaux) seem to be taking a black.white stance on what from the description seems to me arguably (and boy, do we love to argue) a somewhat ambiguous set of circumstances.

Now I'll step back and watch the flames. Brought the stuff to make s'mores, mmmmmmmmm (none for SloLo, of course).

This is so much a fray into which I want to jump!

Just once I want to see a mainstream Hollywood movie where a man is passed out drunk and raped and the critics see it as a great example of dark humor.

Posted by: Cleveland at April 11, 2009 1:40 AM

You already took a stab at this one, ,, but all you managed was a flesh wound. It didn't sound to me as if the hero(?) in the movie you referenced was passed out during the act, so I don't think that quite meets the standard to which this mob is aspiring. No matter what studly qualities a guy possesses, I don't believe he could maintain an erection while in a state of drugged unconsciousness. Ergo, no heterosexual sex (hell, that's difficult enough to pull off in a state of drugged consciousness). However, he could still very much take it in the ass -- and that perhaps gets us closer to the point (and shock value) here. No matter the gentleman in question's conscious sexual preference, I rather suspect we'd be having a different conversation if that was the onscreen scenario.

I guess I'm in with Cleveland on this one...the hairy feminists not so much, though.

I don't think you're likely to find yourself in too many situations where you have to rape someone to save your own life, outside of Japanese cinema. And legally speaking, manslaughter is still punishable, it may not be considered as bad as murder but it'll usually still get you jail time. With rape on the other hand, if there's any question about intent you're going free, regardless of how much harm you did to the other person. I think it'd actually be awesome if our culture acknowledged that it isn't always intended but decided it still deserves some punishment, like manslaughter.

Che, No, in the Case of "It Couldn't Happen ..." the guy wasn't blitzed. Otherwise, it fits.

Whoa, spoobnooble! I'm sorry, but if the man is doing things to an inanimate object/passed-out woman, wouldn't the equivalent situation here be the drunk driver suing the fucking car for the ensuing wreck of a situation?

Kinda glad spoob brought that up. If I dressed in Armani and a Rolex, stuffed my wallet with $100s and snorted some coke, and drove my Jag (yeah, I'm heavily fantasizing here, but stick with me) to the worst part of the city, alone, at night, and pulled into a dark alley and just started strolling around until someone beat the shit out of me and stole all my stuff, whose fault would that be?

I think you see where this is going. Have at it.

Fault? Fuck fault. Yeah, a person ought to be smart, but the bottom line is, you can't take someone's stuff without asking, legally or morally.

With that, good night.

"Funny, I know, but those of us with vaginas don't like being told that the penalty for drinking too much is to have someone stick their cock in you and they're totally in the right cause you went and drank."

Ha, I think that's the clearest anyone has ever made that argument!

Okay, I've had just about enough of this. I never advocated rape, nor did Pookie or Slim. And why in a movie where the same exact character shoots an unarmed man, maims and possibly kills several people, one of who's son is right in front of him, a man does coke and smack before robbing a mall and beating his best friend over the head, is a scene where a couple of drunken simpletons, neither of who are knocked out, are fucking each other?

It's a black comedy, a very demented one, but a black comedy none the less. Many morally reprehensible acts are played for laughs, and they work. We already laugh at gruesome murders, senseless violence, druggies, prison rape, the mentally impaired, dead hookers and drunks. Why can't we laugh at two drunk, fucked up individuals, and the passionless nature of their sex while one of them thinks that this is the greatest night of passion of his life?

It's perfectly okay to laugh at things you find morally reprehensible, that's the whole nature of comedy in the first place. To laugh at tragedy is both what keeps us sane, and makes us human.

bucdaddy, I will be the first to point out stupidity when I see it. I have gone to a hotel room with a man I did not know very well. That was a bad decision on my part, and thinking back I probably would have acted differently. But I know that man was a good person because that misjudgement didn't get me RAPED.

Again, the onus rests on the individual who commits the crime. Everyone makes bad decisions, sexual assault should not be the penalty, nor is stupidity on the part of the victim an excuse for the perpetrator of the crime. I'm willing to grant a gray area when both parties are intoxicated, but honest to god the person who initiates sexual contact without consent is the person in the wrong. I'm not sure what's debatable about that.

ok, will people please stop using the word "onus"?

Wow. Where do I begin.

I think buc makes an interesting point regarding levels of culpability.

The penalty for "killing" a person is typically based on intent. I wont bother with the breakdown of first vs second vs manslaughter.

If Seth's character was sober while Anna's was clearly unconscious this is RAPE in this first degree.

If he truly believed she provided consent, but his belief was unreasonable to the average person, this is RAPE in the second degree.

The real landmine for the average guy is when he goes to a bar, buys a girl some drinks and then takes her home for a screw.

All things being equal, it is patronizing to women to treat them as victims if both parties are drunk and therefore consent could not technically be provided. Next morning regrets do not equate to retroactive rape. Now, I suppose the pair could both be charged with raping the other. We see a form of this (mostly in the South) when some jerkoff Sherrif arrests two teens for having underage sex.

But lets not confuse what Seth's character did with what constitutes "dating" in college.

Finally, while in the middle of sex a woman is absolutely entitled to withdraw consent and if the man continues that is rape.

HOWEVER, if the two drunk people are having sex and one passes out, is there not still implied consent that the conscious person has approval to continue? (Such is the case with a partner giving a hummer to her man while he is sleeping)
I wouldn't do it. And it is skeevy, but I don't think this is rape.

Hatemail....

Whether or not it's rape depends on the girl's mood? WHAT?!

Happy Easter! To He-Man Woman Haters AND Unshaven Femi-Nazis.

Is it just you and me Slim? That doesn't seem right. I'm going to the traditional Rhyme family dinner soon where I hope to sneak drinks and get drunk on the down low. This task becomes easier as everyone else gets worse.

*a

Now to go discuss why Dragonball Evolution is really a subversive example of why humanity's time is ending.

Condemning rape in a comedy is for dumb people.

So for the dumb people, no reciprocation means no love whether male or female is on the receiving end. Enjoy the fucking comedy or go watch what Tyler Perry is up to. You can say it's funny or not after you watch it. Or you don't see it. You invoke the wrath of the Gods of Comedy. And the Haleymonster with all of her Vieragorgon minions are soon to follow.

(I cannot believe how out of hand that shit got.)

Whatever happened to just being a decent person? Why would you want to have sex with someone who is passed out?

Oh meaux, but I mean it quite literally. The condemnation is not necessarily made by dumb people, but you are condemning it for fear of the dumb people that will purloin validation from watching a movie from a director who works with Apatow and Ferrell and McBride. The biggest crime of a comedy is not being funny. I'll concede that the second biggest crime of a comedy would be the spawning of deviants. But now how are you going to prove that?

CSI and SVU and whatever shitstorm everyday television programs just doily-down the same stuff so many of the people here purport your bad reactions to. I am not Bslimming the argument by trying to establish whether or not it was rape. I am not formerly artist reductio ad absurduming this entertainment news-cycle either. I can understand how what they've said has raised the ire in the room. Some of what they said was funny and clever, some wasn't. I still never thought they were lampooning rape. I read what they were doing as lampooning the reaction I didn't think I'd see too much of on a Pajiba thread. I fully appreciate Dan Carlson's lack of comment on the rape. If this were a review of Irreversible, failure to mention it would be inexcusable. Since this is not, shove on.

No one wants to have sex with a passed out person acceptable by social mores. I don't think anyone associated with the making of this movie or commenting in this thread makes that case.

Well, I think the damage for BSlim and Genny is pretty permanent, since she had sex with him while he was passed out on ambien and xanax. Didn't you learn anything from this thread, Genny? Geez...

this is only my opinion.

i don't get that this thread has been particularly damaging.
if a comment is threatening to someone, the issue is the eye of the beholder.

no one should be taken at the face value of any one comment on any subject.

*sniff* Truly, 'tis an Easter miracle: Spender, son of Godtopus, hath given himself unto Pajibans, so that we may live together in peace and harmony.

Good show, funny guy!

Why would you want to have sex with someone who is passed out?

Posted by: Snuggiepants the Deathbringer at April 12, 2009 1:54 PM

I dunno. Ask BSlim.

If this review was meant to provoke and gauge your responses - an experiment, if you will - I'd have to say that it was wildly successful.

Posted by: Spender at April 12, 2009 2:10 PM

On the contrary, Spender, I'd argue that the review was not meant to provoke and gauge your responses -- presuming that "your responses" is referring to the mock referendum on rape that took place last night. Carlson said nothing about the scene that rattled the collective cage within his review. Someone else smuggled that beach ball into the venue, inflated it and then started it bouncing around the comments section...

Sorta reminds me of that Kids movie when the guy raped Chloe Sevigny, but she was HIV+ so then he was too (and the disease came from his sick-o best friend who liked to have sex with underage girls without condems). I'm not sure if Harmony meant it to be funny, probably more ironic and horrifying then anything else. All those kids did was get high and have sex with each other though. This movie sounds like it wants to be more funny than that though. After reading that thread that got Pookie booted off, I would have to say that rape is wrong either way. If a girl or guy says no than that means no, whether they are drunk or not. If someone is unconscious and someone has sex with them, it is also rape, even if they didn't verbalize consent. Sounds like the movie coped out by having Anna Farris consent while semi-unconscious, but still it constituted as rape because she was drunk. I've had this happen to me before, so it bothers me that some people want to argue that a woman or man asks to be raped because he or she is drunk and unconscious. There's clearly something wrong with thinking this way. I blame desensitization of the issue in modern society and not accepting the person raped as a victim of such a violent act. Women have been subjugated by rape over the course of history, it is unacceptable and no means no!

Posted by: Jackseppelin at April 12, 2009 3:00 PM

hey! what'd i say about that?

Cheers, Jacksep--I've made more than my share of bad puns around here!

I dunno. Ask BSlim.

Posted by: Che Grovera at April 12, 2009 3:02 PM

-------------------------------------------------

You are a funny guy Che, I like you,

...that's why I'm going to kill you last.

I see this as a clear case of date rape if it were to happen in real life. However, I don't recall any women being outraged at the rape in "40 days and 40 nights" with Josh Harnett, of course im assuming that's because that movie is considered a harmless romantic comedy, but I bet it didn't stop any women from liking the movie. Although, if the movie ended with a woman handcuffed to a bed being fucked against her will, I doubt it would have ever been made. So, fuck all the double standards, I'm going to watch this guilt-free and continue to deplore real-life rape while living without a cinematic stick up my ass. Yes, you can do both, everyone needs to stop being so fucking sensitive about everything they see in a goddamn movie. Ok, I'm done bitching now.

Samantha, intoxification can be a valid defense for specific intent crimes and a mitigating factor in other crimes. With that said, I in no way implied that if you get drunk you can go about raping without fear of prosecution.

In fact, if society has recognized that people can be held legally answerable for their actions despite being intoxicated, does it not reason that two consenting adults who become voluntarily intoxicated and engage in sex while conscious are on equal footing and not raping each other? The woman, as much as the man, must be responsible for the actions they take while drunk, even if that action is to engage in sex. Otherwise, you have a gross double standard.

If a man and woman are drunk would you have the DA charge both with rape? Surely, you would not suggest that the woman is not the man's equal, and that by her merely being a woman she has the lesser mental capacity or legal status?

Smatt584

I was actually really disturbed by that scene. And as a result, I really didn't like the movie. I've also NEVER heard a woman defend that scene when it comes up in debates about rape. And maybe so few people talk about that scene because so few people saw that movie.

For those of you who STILL don't get it, let me break it down for you:
Drunk woman + sober man = BAD.
drunk man + sober woman = BAD.
drunk woman who says NO + drunk man = BAD.
drunk man who says NO + drunk woman = BAD.

drunken woman who says YES + drunken man who says YES = college = yay for college

And with that, the debate is over! Because this damn movie flopped anyways.

Hey Smatt584 and Theresa,

I noticed the rape in "40 Days and 40 Nights", too. It actually pissed me off a LOT. The idea makes me sick, regardless of gender.

But Smatt is right, there was no big hubbub about "40/40" like there has been about "Observe and Report." Standards are really fucking unequal. And, until the day that the general populace freaks as much when men are depicted as rape victims as when women are, there will continue to be crazy ass discussions like this one illustrating perfectly the gender inequality in our society.

I'll make myself really unpopular here. I haven't seen the movie, but I'm basing my comment on other people's synopses.

Let's look at it from this perspective - he's mentally ill, which he can medicate or not depending on choice. She is drunk, which she can avoid depending on choice. So how is his compromised ability to make rational decisions less important than hers? It's a fucked up situation, but definitely not black and white.

Ummm...we're sorry? D'you want your money back?

i love how the Jezebel readers carried over their sanctimony, humorlessness, and outright hypocrisy. wrap it up, ladies. you're making the rest of your gender look bad.

i'm going to make a dark comedy film about women who see themselves as open-minded, progressive, and irreverent, who can laugh at the incorporation of almost any human tragedy into the bitter humor of comedy like sarah silverman's or christopher guest movies, but strap on their "DONT FUCK WITH ME, MISTER" hats anytime someone dares to bring up rape in a context that's not Lifetime-level melodrama.

if dark comedy is to exist at all, it touches upon ALL the darkness of human existence. i mean, i say this as if you don't already know, when everybody (including those doing it) already knows you're only picking up your bow and arrow because well... that's just what you do. you get to say, "HEY, not on my watch, BUB!" and get all righteously offended.

if someone was the victim of date-rape and starts to feel the onset of some PTSD, get them the fuck out of the movie theater! help 'em! same thing goes for if you've got a vietnam vet watching "full metal jacket." that's something the individual deals with. you don't get to go around burning copies of "catch-22" because some people have traumatic memories associated with war, near-death experience, or prostitution.

i mean, did you people not watch the rest of the movie? (uhh, spoiler?) a man who offers no immediate physical harm gets SHOT and we watch him BLEEDING ALL OVER THE FLOOR. this is where the line between tragedy and comedy gets so blurred and muddled that all you can do is appreciate the fact that at least SOMEONE recognizes that we exist within that blurry line, every day, and that the only place where it's a clear distinction is in movies where directors say "hey, let's not include anything that might mix up sadness with the funny! let's keep this clearcut so some readers from Jezebel don't decide to blacklist seth rogen from their netflix queues!"

whew. at first i was just going to say something dismissive and snide (because it's not like any of you harpies will ever change your myopic, self-righteous viewpoint) but goddam that felt good to get out. well, i feel pretty nice. see y'all later!

Ha, I think it's funny flipit called other people self-righteous, at least after that tirade!

i am shocked, shocked that the pajiba nation finds seth rogen so appealing and that the only fault this film has is that it does not bear the apatow brand.

Hurp Durp - now THAT was a funny rape joke.

I probably won't pay to see it, if I see it at all. The whole date rape thing is.. how do you put it? just a little creepy.

now that i have actually sat through this movie, i can say that it is hard to believe such garbage received a serious review from dan who is generally right on the money with incisive and insightful observations. this is simply " mall cop " raunched up. the rogen love affair will survive anything if it survives this.

Tajmccall: Moot doesn't mean what I think you think it means; however this whole thread shows it's kind of the right word.

I saw the movie. My feelings on it are best summed up by the scene where the 2nd detective is hiding in the closet. Then he comes out and says "sorry, I thought this would be funny but it's actually kinda sad..."

That's what I think about this movie.

I love dark comedy. I was a huge fan of Death to Smoochy and this seems to be up that ally, maybe even further up. Can't wait to check it out.