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The Sexual Trivialization of Women in the Media and More on The Woman

By Dustin Rowles | Posted Under Film Reviews | Comments (170)



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Author’s Note: Each day at Sundance, Seth and I take in 4 or 5 movies apiece, and most of the time in between those movies is spent standing in line, which is where we actually write many of our Sundance reviews (like the one you’re reading). Yesterday, after waking up at 5:30 a.m. to stand in line for two-and-a-half hours to see Red State, I was exhausted and bleary after The Woman. I had planned to discuss it more fully in the context of this movie, but I was also pissed off enough that I wanted to say something about The Woman before passing out and starting it all over again. I touch upon Lucky McKee’s movies more below. — DR


Miss Representation is a documentary about how the mainstream media depicts women, and how that depiction is partially responsible for the reason why so few women hold positions of power in the United States. It says absolutely nothing new, nothing that wasn’t splashed all over the news in the late 80s during the height of glam metal music videos, and nothing that most people with a little common sense and a modicum of intelligence could not conclude on their own. Women are portrayed as catty bitches in reality television and as fuck toys in cinema. And those depictions trivialize women, making it more difficult for men and the old white male social order to respect them, therefore, making it more difficult to take them seriously as potential leaders. Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin are offered as examples — Palin in trivialized because she’s perceived as a sexual object, while Clinton is trivialized because she’s perceived a bitch. In both cases, they’re qualifications, or lack therof, for the respective positions are often overlooked in favor of examining what they’re wearing, how much cleavage they are showing, or how much leg they reveal.

It’s fairly standard stuff, and offers all the supporting statistics common to these sorts of documentaries, interjected with a few personal accounts from the writer. It’s not a very good documentary. It’s generic, nor does it say anything new, but there are a few talking heads, like Lisa Ling, Condoleeza Rice, Katie Couric, and Diane Feinstein, that make it sporadically insightful. It also reiterates what many of us already know: If every journalist on the planet was just like Rachel Maddows, the world would be a perfect place.

Still, Miss Representation does provide a much needed refresher course in feminist politics, a reminder that — as much progress as women have made — men still hold most positions of power in both politics and media, and that things are unlikely to change until we reshape the minds of men and rid the planet of Fox News.

It also provided a disturbing contrast to a movie I saw later in the day, Lucky McKee’s torture flick, The Woman, a film that essentially highlighted the thesis of Miss Representation: The more images of sexualized and subjugated women we see, the less likely things are going to improve. They perpetuate steretypes about women. Lucky McKee’s The Woman is the perfect example of this. It’s about a goofy suburban dad who finds a feral woman out in the woods, chains her up in the basement, and — along with his suburban family — “civilizes” her through torture and rape. The husband also casually beats his wife (for laughs, or at least the laughs of some of the critics at my screening) and then gets in bed and asks, as though nothing had happened, “Aren’t you coming to bed, honey?” I’m certain that, like many rape-revenge fantasies, the men get their commuppance in the end, both the father and his son, who has taken after his father. I wouldn’t know — I couldn’t make it past the scene where the woman is power washed. Power washed. I just don’t understand why the need to depict brutal, agonizing mysogyny to make a point about mysogyny, especially when that point is largely missed by most of the people who would watch such a movie.

To put it another way: What if The Woman were about a gay man, and instead of “civilizing” her, the man was raped and tortured in order to rid him of the gay. Could Lucky McKee then realistically support an anti-homophobic message by suggesting that a gay mean needed to be beaten and raped to prove that point? If I Spit On Your Grave was about a man who was beaten, tortured, and gang raped, would other men cheer when he got his revenge? No. Probably because no man would watch that movie. Most men couldn’t bear the thought of watching another man — straight or gay — being brutally gang raped, but if the genders are reversed, it’s a revenge fantasy.

And that’s what’s wrong with mainstream media: It conditions men to think of women as sexual objects, it trivializes them, and it treats them as objects, so that for enough men, a movie like The Woman perpetuates this triviliazation. But the lighting in The Woman is done well, given the budget, the performances are modest, and the music is sufficiently eerie. Is that review enough for you, or should I describe, in more detail, the beatings that the woman is forced to submit to?









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Comments

I don't think Palin is trivialized because she’s perceived as a sexual object, I think she is trivialized because she's an idiot. A clever idiot, but still an idiot.

Posted by: peachfish at January 25, 2011 3:37 PM

Too much, Dustin. Perhaps a simple "Fuck you" would make a better review.
/sarcasmpleaseputdownthegun

Posted by: Paultera at January 25, 2011 3:37 PM

tl;dr

Posted by: sansho1 at January 25, 2011 3:38 PM

Paultera, that made me CACKLE.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 3:40 PM

But aren't the women who participate equally culpable? Why blame only the men?
Are housewives forced at gun point to participate in reality shows where they denigrate each other, glorify shopping, and tear each other's hair extensions out?
Are female actors forced to participate in films such as The Woman?
Certainly Palin everytime she opens her mouth trivializes herself. She doesn't need help from anyone else.

Once when I was absolutely broke and unemployed, a friend offered me a job at his bar (I had tended bar all of the previous year). When I showed up for work I was told to change into "the uniform" which consisted of a leotard that left no chest architecture to the imagination, and a skirt the size of a belt and shoes with four inch heels. I chose to walk away and continue begging the landlord for an extension on my rent. We all have a choice. Women too.

Posted by: PaddyDog at January 25, 2011 3:40 PM

Correction: Palin is trivialized because she's an idiot. Please, let's not hold Palin up as some sort of feminist pioneer. She's an opportunist.

It's nice (kind of) that she can be an opportunist in an area where traditionally only men could, so I guess it's progress. But Palin gets disrespect, or whatever people want to call it, because she is simply a cynical attention whore who appears to have run for Veep only so she could launch a lucrative career in reality TV, publishing and speaking engagements. She clearly has no interest in actual leadership. She just wants to yap and have people listen to her. And throw piles of money at her and her family.

Posted by: Slash at January 25, 2011 3:43 PM

Dear god your politics are so simple and cliched. It is amusing to see a liberal be self-important in their thoughts, which are regurgitated talking points of every liberal college professor. Sad.

Posted by: Huligan at January 25, 2011 3:44 PM

Palin is rightly dismissed because she's a dimwit and because she trades on her sexuality much more so than other women in politics.

Personally, I don't get the need to depict torture and/or rape. I just don't get the point. I understand the "girl in the refrigerator" aspect of motivating the hero, I just don't see the point in graphic depictions of man's inhumanity to man. Or, more accurately, man's inhumanity to woman. Of course, I don't like horror movies either so I'm clearly not the target audience.

Posted by: Tracer Bullet at January 25, 2011 3:45 PM

Yeah, Palin just yaps but someone like Edwars, who the left worhsipped just a few years ago, gets kid gloves treatment.

But it is b/c Palin is "stupid" and has nothing to do with the left hating any woman who strays off the liberal plantation. Must like the left hates any minority who dares to hold a conservative veiw - calling them "oreo" or "cocunut" or some other racial slur.

The left - so high minded and intelligent in their own sad minds.

Posted by: Huligan at January 25, 2011 3:47 PM

A bulk of the commentators on Fox are female. Many of them have their own shows. The men on that channel come off far worse than the women.

Posted by: Name withheld at January 25, 2011 3:49 PM

You people are sad. Your "thoughts" are sad. Your politics are so cliched.

Everyone who disagrees with you is "dimwitted" and trades on their sexuality.

Remember when you idiots were defending Clinton as he sexually harassed numerous employees and was credibly accused of rape by 3 different women? I guess if you have the right politics, feminism doesn't matter so much anymore, huh?

Please, your "morals" are as deep as a piece of paper.

Posted by: Huligan at January 25, 2011 3:49 PM

So I take it that Dustin's wife has his balls locked firmly away in her purse.

Posted by: ikj at January 25, 2011 3:50 PM

Huligan, LOOK. I'm a woman. Hell, I've listened to Palin. She's clever enough to leverage her minimal experience in the political arena into somewhat of a lasting presence. Is she good for women? Maybe, maybe not. She runs on a platform of this folksy, homegrown shtick that is just absolutely grating. Don't pander to me based on some perceived notion you have about me. That's what I get from her. That's why I don't care much for her.

FYI: I'm not a liberal nor a conservative. Both sides have points that I do not agree with.

Posted by: Melody at January 25, 2011 3:53 PM

I am having a flashback that has nothing to do with all the acid.

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at January 25, 2011 3:53 PM

Despite the fact that I understand documentaries like these need to be made, I have one major gripe with them. People are under this misassumption that all of our thoughts ideas and beliefs are taken from the media we expose ourselves to. I've never really bought into that concept. It's always felt like the same argument as "violent videogames make violent children."
I'm not saying that our media doesn't portray and absolutely disgusting view of women. It does. At some point as a society though we need to recognise some of these viewpoints might stem from the fact that people act like this in real life. Writers and directors are personifying actual people on some level.
I guess I should backtrack. I respect women. I was raised by a single mother and without her strength and determination I'd probably have ended up as some illiterate wannabe thug kid, or one of those douchebags in the inksplattered MMA shirts. Trust me I'm thankful. I've also been blessed to be close friends with some of the most intelligent, outspoken, free willed, indpendent, internally beautiful, self sufficient women I could be graced to meet. But I've met more whores.
That doesn't give anyone the right to stereotype all women as vapid sex objects. It does on some level say something about things on both sides of the line. Yes, things for women will not improve until men give up the power they hold and treat them like equals. But on the other hand how many female pajibans have had to differentiate themselves as individuals, because when it came to the subject at hand they had their own qualms about standing beside their gender? I know I sure as hell don't want to associate myself with the common American male's newest incarnation. He's idiotic, insecure, ineffective, and generally used as nothing more than something to fill an abercrombie shirt, or designer jeans. But that's the problem right there. Male or female, most of the people I'm unfortunate to meet really don't give a shit if their portrayed that way. They just want to get drunk and maybe get laid.

Posted by: Blank at January 25, 2011 3:54 PM

Oh and Clinton was a man whore. I only recall one rape allegation and a litany of marginally attractive women that he slept with. I'm including his tenure as governor in that list. Who are the three that you are thinking of?

Posted by: Melody at January 25, 2011 3:54 PM

Trolls are so much cuter when they have basic spelling and grammar skills.

Posted by: Dingles at January 25, 2011 3:56 PM

"You people are sad. Your "thoughts" are sad. Your politics are so cliched."

You've already stated this. Redundancy does not a clear point make.

"Remember when you idiots were defending Clinton as he sexually harassed numerous employees and was credibly accused of rape by 3 different women? I guess if you have the right politics, feminism doesn't matter so much anymore, huh?"

Can you provide evidence that every single "liberal" did this? Or can you keep your cliched (look! your favorite word!) generalizations to a minimum? I know it's hard when you're having so much fun arguing with yourself on a movie website.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 3:57 PM

Dustin, if you need fuel to keep at this, I am prepared to fax you not one but two beers of your choice. (In other words, please keep up the good work.)

Posted by: Markus at January 25, 2011 3:58 PM

RE "I just don’t understand why the need to depict brutal, agonizing misogyny to make a point about misogyny, especially when that point is largely missed by most of the people who would watch such a movie."

Yeah, I don't get it, either. Other than the obvious, which is that most of the people who do it don't do it to make a point. They really just want to see it onscreen and know that other people do, too, but they don't have the guts to admit it, so they put it out there and then call it a commentary on abuse, rather than the celebration that it really is. They (mostly men) don't want to see men being abused, because that's not hot. But seeing a hot chick onscreen being abused, that's hot. To them.

I'm guessing the reason there aren't more movies about the brutal abuse of children (aside from the lack of profitability inherent in such subject matter, at least in mainstream movies, ie, not porn) is that producers know they probably wouldn't be able to market those types of movies. So women are pretty much all that's left to abuse, cinematically.

Posted by: Slash at January 25, 2011 3:58 PM

Remember, don't feed them.

Posted by: PaddyDog at January 25, 2011 3:58 PM

Well, Palin didn't "decide" to run for VP (although she took the popularity, quit her elected job and ran with it all the way to the bank.) At the time, the GOP was pretty certain that whether Hillary or Obama got the Democratic nomination they needed their own minority. The GOP picked her because she was a woman. Not in any liberating sense of course. They picked her above any other Republican women because she wasn't well known and because she had uber-conservative values.

They created a monster and Gamera Palin will DESTROY US ALL IF WE DON'T STOP HER!!

Posted by: Paultera at January 25, 2011 4:00 PM

Please don't feed the troll. Don't try to reason with it. It wandered over here from some dipshit "conservative" site and is just regurgitating something it saw on Fox or Glenn Beck.

Posted by: Slash at January 25, 2011 4:02 PM

Gamera is full of turtle meat.

Posted by: Tracer Bullet at January 25, 2011 4:03 PM

Paultera: Yes, she did decide. She could have said no. It wasn't a monumental responsibility thrust upon her and there was no one else to take it. She saw an opportunity and ran with it, as you suggest. That makes her no less cynical. No more cynical than any other man who's been offered the same position, but no less so, either.

Posted by: Slash at January 25, 2011 4:04 PM

There were only like 5 comments when I wrote the Palin thing. If I knew there BigTodd's cousins were here I have left it out. I stand by my Gamera statement though. Even though she's not neat at all. Maybe I should have gone with a Manos comparison.

Posted by: Paultera at January 25, 2011 4:06 PM

Mother of God, people. Will you never learn?

Listen! And understand: That troll is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop.

Also, I after reading this, I'm totally OK with the earlier review of The Woman. Power washed?

What. The. Fuck.

Posted by: The Other Agent Johnson at January 25, 2011 4:07 PM

Not to delve too deep into Freudism but I think whoever made The Woman has some slight Oedipal issues he wants to work through via his movie.

And it's a he. I don't need to see IMDB to know the "Creative Force" behind this "movie" was a guy.

As for the greater societal issues, I wish I had an answer. I don't. Not one beyond: respect is taught early in life and it must be reinforced every day.

Posted by: Fredo at January 25, 2011 4:09 PM

Dustin, thank you.

I just don’t understand why the need to depict brutal, agonizing mysogyny to make a point about mysogyny, especially when that point is largely missed by most of the people who would watch such a movie.

Do people know how many people in the world live lives of desperation, mutilation, and poverty simply because they were born female? This isn't a topic about whether Palin is a jerk or not. Or whether some women sell brainlessness as a public commodity. This is more about WHY that would be a sellable product.

As a female, and the mother of daughters, I am unable to take all this lightly.

Posted by: SittingPat at January 25, 2011 4:10 PM

Ok Rowles, you have this coming, take it like a man.

Thank you.

and kudos for stirring a hornets nest simultaneously.

the ape stands down.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 4:11 PM

That's why "decide" was in quotes. Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending her in any way. I was just making a point about why she was picked. She acts like she's some spokeswoman for independent minded women and she knows that she's nothing of the sort.

Posted by: Paultera at January 25, 2011 4:11 PM

I'm very curious to see how differently or similarly Michele Bachmann is treated/referred to/dealt with compared to Palin once she announces her run for Prez (kill me now). She's cut from the same cloth as Palin, but her reputation is more along the lines of "insane" rather than "stupid." She's also not seen as generally attractive the way Palin is, so it would be interesting to see how different the line of attack will be from the left, or non-Tea Party Republicans.

Posted by: sars at January 25, 2011 4:12 PM

YOUR FACE IS SAD

hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at January 25, 2011 4:12 PM

:: pushed to the front ::

[muttering] Okay, I said okay! I'll do it. [clears throat]

Good afternoon [insert name here] the Internet Troll(s).

We here a Pajiba welcome you and your ability to track down websites on which to be inflammatory as well as to type opinions to which you feel we are all entitled. We are an occasionally capricious, but generally consistent bunch. Inclusive of both persons willing to express their opinions and to politely listen to those of others, whether contrary or not, to our own, we quite enjoy witty ripostes and displays of verbal dexterity. If you read carefully, you may even notice occasional literary or film references incorporated to delight the reader. Feel free to reply in glorious verbal technicolour!

By consulting your program, you will find that we have certain banned words here at Pajiba and respectfully ask that you refrain from using them. If you accidentally incorporate one, or all, of them, the Post Comment button has a convenient feature to let you know your error and gently redirect you to an editing station.

We reserve the right to eviscerate your opinions, grammar and syntax with ruthless efficiency.

Should any of the commentary mention a "basement", I respectfully suggest that you retreat to safe distance.

Thank you and enjoy your stay.

Kisses,
Mrs. Julien

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at January 25, 2011 4:13 PM

Well-said, PaddyDog, both posts.

One note in the discussion at large--I'm not sure that men are treated that differently as far as how they're characterized. Sure, those who achieved a singular thing are characterized as "they guy who did X,", but I don't think Palin or Clinton has achieved their X yet. In the meantime, lots of guys are equally thought of as jerks, horndogs, airheads (Quayle anyone?), criminals, nice guys, materialists. I may be wrong but I'm not convinced that's one of the ways men and women are treated differently by the world and particularly the media, though I'm sure I agree that they are treated differently.

Posted by: Eep at January 25, 2011 4:18 PM

Is the mouth-breather for real, or is this the best commentator performance art ever?

Does it matter?

Posted by: jon29 at January 25, 2011 4:21 PM

Dustin, as a woman who is sick of this crap - thank you.

After I read this post I checked my email and honest to god I had just received a petition from a not for profit organization called Avaaz that I support. Their breaking story is "corrective rape" which was used on a South African woman to cure her of lesbianism.

We watch movies like The Woman and some assholes say it's just a movie and we need to calm down. It is not just a movie. This is actually happening out there and so I have to thank Dustin for taking something like this seriously.

If you want to sign the petition and have a voice on this issue the link is:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_corrective_rape?fp

Posted by: citizen_cris at January 25, 2011 4:21 PM

Mrs. Julien:

You forgot to add "From now on, Kit-Kat will be bigger"

Posted by: PaddyDog at January 25, 2011 4:29 PM

I cannot take seriously the opinion of someone who refused to watch the entire film. Lucky McKee is the farthest thing from a misogynist I can think of. You want to walk out of a movie? Fine, that is your right. Do not then proceed to pontificate on how terrible it is and why it is a travesty. You can choose one or the other: informed opinion or no opinion. Otherwise you sound like the aforementioned dimwit, Mrs. Palin.

Posted by: Josh at January 25, 2011 4:32 PM

"I just don’t understand why the need to depict brutal, agonizing misogyny to make a point about misogyny, especially when that point is largely missed by most of the people who would watch such a movie."

Thanks, Dustin. The simple answer is that there is no fucking need for this. I've gone on about this before, but I'll say it again: a good enough filmmaker doesn't fucking need to show it in excruciating detail to get his point across. An incompetent, sick-minded fuck does.

Posted by: Figgy at January 25, 2011 4:42 PM

Nominating Mrs. Julien for most esteemed ambassador of Pajibaland.

Seconds?

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 4:42 PM

"If I Spit On Your Grave were about a man who was beaten, tortured, and gang raped, would other men cheer when he got his revenge? No. Probably because no man would watch that movie. Most men couldn’t bear the thought of watching another man — straight or gay — being brutally gang raped, but if the genders are reversed, it’s a revenge fantasy."

False. It's called Deliverance. And it's an effective little horror film. "Rape" is an effective avenue to incite fear in men. Men do fear rape. Reason #1 why I never want to go to prison.

It's just if the genders are reversed, the entire situation takes on new connotations because it's happening to a woman. And now feminist criticism can be applied.

Even still, I Spit on Your Grave sucked.

Posted by: kylekap at January 25, 2011 4:44 PM

Dustin, I'm curious of your thoughts on Martyrs.

What if the violence isn't sexualized?

Posted by: kylekap at January 25, 2011 4:46 PM

Thanks for walking out Dustin. You are a feminist and a scholar and that's the best compliment I can think of.

I look forward to the time that we can discuss the women, the media and pop culture without talking about Palin. She's such a polarizing figure that any mention of her derails every conversation. And we need to be having these conversations.

Posted by: Abby-Wan Kenobi at January 25, 2011 4:49 PM

As Ebert likes to say, a movie isn't about what it's about, it's about how it's about it. It doesn't require hanging out to see how the plot resolves to know that the real point of genre movies is, "You enjoy watching this, don't you? Just to see how much you can take, right? Well, here you go."

Posted by: sansho1 at January 25, 2011 4:53 PM

Aww, Big Todd is back! Now 40% more contemptuous, 60% less articulate.

Posted by: nosio at January 25, 2011 4:53 PM

Martyrs, while a perplexing and discussable film, is one of the few things i wish i had never seen. very seriously, very really wish i had never seen.

i felt abused by having witnessed it. i felt there should have been a warning that the film was psychically harmful.

I don't possess skills in hyperbole to reinforce this point.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 4:53 PM

Shoulda said "movies of this genre", not all "genre movies". Anyhoo....

Posted by: sansho1 at January 25, 2011 4:54 PM

Just as an academic exercise, here is a counter-review of the film by someone who watched the film. Though I suspect that most people here will side with the ranting lunatic in the video:

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/motion-captured/posts/sundance-review-lucky-mckees-the-woman-outrages-and-offends-with-surgical-skill-at-midnight

Posted by: Josh at January 25, 2011 4:58 PM

@kylekap

I'm not trying to argue with you, so please don't perceive me as such. I'm a pussy when it comes to conflict.

I thought what Dustin said was one of the best paragraphs I've ever read on this site. Deliverance is the perfect example of how differently rape is inflicted on different genders in cinema. In Deliverance or in American History X, the rape scenes are brutal and disturbing, yes, but not as unnecessarily drawn out as in movies such as I Spit on Your Grave or Captivity. I haven't seen either, but I've heard the gang rape in I Spit on Your Grave lasts for something like fifteen minutes. That is way longer and worse than any male rape scene I've heard of. As for Captivity, I don't know if there's an actual rape, but the guy is supposed to pour acid on her and make her eat a blender full of human guts. Deliverance was still effective without needing to do any of that.

Posted by: Patrick the Bunny at January 25, 2011 5:02 PM

@Blank, it's not so much that our ideas and beliefs are taken from the media as much as it is that our media reflects to a certain degree the normative standards of our day. If we can see it in a movie theater, it's generally okay to see (with a rating slapped on, like that works well).

It gives rise to a world where I've worked with ten-year-old boys who tell me their favorite video game is Grand Theft Auto. My husband plays Grand Theft Auto; from what I recall, the character sleeps with multiple women, beats them, can buy sex from them, and can go to strip clubs. Sure, maybe it's an issue of the kids parenting and not the world, but, the child being ten, somebody had to buy the game for him, and the rest of his household is entirely female--mom and sisters. No one's stopping him from playing, and kids ARE impressionable.

But it's not just that. I find Sex and the City as vapid as the next female who thinks about it long enough, but I often rise to the defense of Samantha's character. Why? Because men and women refer to her as a whore. And I hate that word, I call people on its use all the time. What makes her a whore? So she enjoys sex. She's also a career woman with her own business who employs others and uses her smarts to be successful. She's not charging for her sexual services, and a man in her position would be considered a player. Calling a woman who indulges in and explores her sexuality a whore wrests the power from a woman who's taken charge of her sexuality and reduces that reclaimed power to a transaction, a thing to be bought and discarded, usually by a man (putting him back in power in the relationship here). She's no longer on an equal, human level. Is this an extreme interpretation? Maybe. But "whore" is common usage, and it bothers me that it's common and okay to use.

And if it starts with objecting to rape fantasy movies, refusing to use particular language, or just highlighting everyday inequalities, then that's a good start. Like PaddyDog said, everyone has a choice. Bu not everyone may realize they do.

Posted by: leuce7 at January 25, 2011 5:03 PM

From the positive review posted by Josh:

"It's like The Woman is a battery, sending out this field that makes all of the people in the family drop their thin veneer of civilization, and the more time they spend around her, the more they drop into a state of blatant savagery."

So the stuff that happens to her is...ummm....whose fault?

Posted by: sansho1 at January 25, 2011 5:04 PM

I cannot take seriously the opinion of someone who refused to watch the entire film. Lucky McKee is the farthest thing from a misogynist I can think of. You want to walk out of a movie? Fine, that is your right. Do not then proceed to pontificate on how terrible it is and why it is a travesty. You can choose one or the other: informed opinion or no opinion. Otherwise you sound like the aforementioned dimwit, Mrs. Palin.
Posted by: Josh

Valid point, unless said movie is so disturbing as to drive one out. I never need to see the images hinted at in this review, and if the point is that ever harsher and harsher images of misogyny need to be used to drive home the filmmaker's point, I would suggest that perhaps the filmmaker isn't very skilled at his art.

Posted by: Brenton at January 25, 2011 5:10 PM

I don't think that review places blame on her, I think it is the opposite. The Woman is a passive force in all of this, at least as far as I can tell, and her subjugators are shown to be worse than she is, despite their civilization. I haven't seen the film, so I cannot speak authoritatively, but my point is that Dustin hasn't either.

Posted by: Josh at January 25, 2011 5:16 PM

Is Mary Whitehouse, back from the grave, a regular poster on this site?

Posted by: Josh at January 25, 2011 5:18 PM

I am confused. What is the point of the picture of a woman on her knees with male shoes on her head and body with straps all around her? And how is it different than The Woman, other than being a more PG version?

Dustin, you seem to be playing fast and loose with both sides here. Some director is a pig for objectifying women, but you have no problem with nameless, even faceless, sexy nurses and bound woman, as examples.

Mind you, I don't have a problem whatsoever with the "objectification" of the human body, be it through film (mainstream or blue), classic art or some other medium, when you otherwise have no interaction with that person and the person is (presumably) willingly offering themselves for objectification.

Objectification can be in many forms, meaning your interest in a person or thing is limited to a single quality held by that person.

And you can objectify that image or person, without objectifying that whole class of people.

Posted by: L.O.V.E. at January 25, 2011 5:27 PM

I would suggest that perhaps the filmmaker isn't very skilled at his art.
Posted by: Brenton

I'll retract the skilled part of that. He may be a phenomenally skilled filmmaker.

The linked review by Josh bangs on about amazingly brutal the civilized people become, and the completely visceral reaction it instigated in the blogger and the audience.

Maybe I'll just sit this discussion out from now on, seeing as I will never see the movie. I don't need to see extremely brutal images just to understand that civilized people aren't really civilized and that men are capable of performing horrific acts on women.

Posted by: Brenton at January 25, 2011 5:28 PM

The positive review linked by Josh had a weird vibe to it. I'm not saying I don't appreciate the counter-viewpoint, but for as much as the writer argues for Lucky's feminist message, he finishes up the article by stating that it was nothing more than a violent revenge movie. Subjecting a female character to gratuitous violence just to justify a gory climax isn't subverting the torture porn genre, it's paying undue homage.

Posted by: nosio at January 25, 2011 5:28 PM

I would respond, but I'm sort of stymied by the notion of "civilizing" someone by beating, torturing, and raping them. Pretty sure those techniques have never resulted in an individual's improvement in the entire history of the world. If I can't buy the premise, I wouldn't see the film, even if it was not as intentionally offensive as reports say. Sounds to me like someone needs therapy. Or maybe a lot of someones.

And for those who say that media only reflects rather than influences how we perceive people, I give you the entire fashion industry. You cannot tell me it's reflective, but it sure as hell is influential.

Posted by: Reba at January 25, 2011 5:28 PM

Leuce,
Thanks for the response. I definitely didn't want to just rant about this, I like the opportunity for discussion. I'm sorry about my use of the term whore. It's a powerful word and I definitely shouldn't throw it around carelessly. I didn't mean it to define women who like sex though. I like sex and I celebrate anyone who does male or female. Understand I'm just as likely to throw around the phrase manwhore. And yes I did use it durogatorally. Because it is. And I meant it that way.
There is a huge difference between liking sex and using sex as a tool. Which I feel like a lot of women have grown accustomed to using in our society. (Men too without a doubt, but we're talking feminism here so I'm kind of keeping the conversation one sided, sorry.)I hear a lot of incredibly intelligent feminists talking about how using sexuality as a tool can empower women in an imbalanced world. Which might be true. It also does absolutely nothing to stop the trend of seeing women solely as objects. I mean we're getting fired up about a film that's entire purpose is to turn an eye to this very subject. Like it or not, it's got all of us talking about it right? Don't get me wrong I wont see it. I have no interest in watching a woman raped for entertainment. But how many people are out there trying to open the eyes of that girl at the bar trading the promise of sex for drinks. We point fingers at the media for sexualization, which as you said is just a representation of the real world, without ever attempting to make an actual effect on the real people around us. I mean what would equality in the media actually be? No torture porn against women? Or an equal amount of torture porn depeicted against men?
None of that changes the fact that I shouldn't have said it. If I want to have a conversation about this stuff, the last thing I should do is toss around inflammatory language.
On the grand theft auto note though. We're also talking about a game where the main character can lay waste to an entire city of innocent people. You can fire rocket launchers at police and run over old men with your car. It's offenses are against everyone. They also have a grand theft auto about a gay man, who sleeps with multiple men. A ten year old kid probably shouldn't play either of them.

Posted by: Blank at January 25, 2011 5:40 PM

The problem with the argument that media is driving women to become shallow, sexualized mega-consumers is that it's a tail wagging the dog argument.

The market moves according to trends within the market. 90% of the products and services for sale out there were not pulled out of thin air, they were often created as a response to a (perceived?) call from the market. "You know what women would eat up?"

My point? Women are objectified because women eat up being objectified. No, not all of them of course, and it can be argued that women have been trained from a very young age to be consumers and objectified and are therefore not equipped to make a rational decision about whether to dress like a retarded raccoon like Snooki or fuck her way to the top of the media pyramid like Kim Kardashian.

Bullshit.

Once again the argument comes down to us as individuals having no free will and no mental capacity to make decisions about whether we want to be perceived as whores or average Joes. The only argument that can really be made there is that the line between normal and whore has been wiped away completely.

By media? No, media responds to what we as consumers are likely to consume. The tail sometimes does wag the dog, as when someone like Lady Gaga shows up and people mimic her look, but even that argument is watered down by the fact that she's only reworking old Madonna getups and she was only coughing up cobbled Goodwill street fashion.

So, who's being objectified?

Pants hanging (with a belt!) below the asscheeks, Bras on the outside, thongs made for whale-tailing

Who's to blame? 17 yr old Disneymade whores pretending to be virgins dating 23 year olds or Disney? Or the parents who let their kid outside like that? The parent who let their kid live on Hannah Montana till it's time to move up to Bella and her ultimate bad-boy?

Yes. All of that.

But the problem is - it works. Whores get guys. Kim Kardashian is a star. Need I remind that her ONLY claim to fame is deliberately making a sex-tape with the intent of releasing it like a New York Times bestseller? Paris Hilton is a role model regardless of how big a fame whore she is for the same reason. Not because she's a glamorous socialite, but because she's a whore who leaked her own sex-tape in order to be objectifed, ie., famous. And she's like a hero to stupid shallow whores everywhere.

So, why should our girls NOT be whores?

And who is perpetuating this concept? Not the media. The media just knows when it sees a good thing.

As long as the ones with all the money want this shit, the media will continue serving it up AND looking for the next big thing to jump on. They don't think them up, they exploit them.

And yes, I do argue that women have all the money. Or at least spend it all. Their own income plus their husband's. Or their parents. Go to a mall at 2 in the afternoon. None of those women have jobs. Shopping and dressing and eating are their jobs. Ever wonder why the malls have 527 shops for women and 3 shops for men?

Posted by: Protoguy at January 25, 2011 5:49 PM

Why do some of you insist on placing the filmmaker in the same moral position as the protagonist in the film?

Posted by: Josh at January 25, 2011 5:50 PM

@josh, the marquis de sade used that premise a long time ago to write really disgusting porn.

he said he was showing how all the esteemed and respectable folk (lords and priests) were less civilized, less holy than their poor humiliated and degrade victims. somehow, this vaunted goal was reached by tedious and endless prose depicting the ways they had their way with her and the ways in which society conspired to keep them from ever receiving their comeuppance.

thank you, I'll get my inspirational messages elsewhere.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 5:50 PM

i was just about to post that link myself. i do agree with the ranting lunatic, and the commentor who wrote: MMorse I find myself curiously mixed in terms of my feelings here. You say that this guy had a "lizard brain" response, and presumably that response was the same sort of uncontrollable, visceral reaction that compelled a woman to RUN from the theater and sustain head injuries. Focusing on how "lizard-brained" he was doesn't make much sense to me. That was the point. That's the point of horror films in general - to access that lizard brain inside of us. Why not also berate the woman who cracked her head open for taking things to an extreme?"

and to the person who mentioned Deliverance, that was ONE movie that certainly DID horrify people, but seeing as how there isn't anything sexy about men being raped, it didn't develop into a whole genre of film like female torture porn did.

as far as the sexualization/rape of kids go in entertainment, it hasn't happened in movies, but it has in books quite a bit, and i find it horrifyingly disturbing, a specific example being "living dead girl." i'm also freaked out by the popularity of "room."

Posted by: kristin at January 25, 2011 5:55 PM

RE Paultera: That's why "decide" was in quotes. Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending her in any way. I was just making a point about why she was picked. She acts like she's some spokeswoman for independent minded women and she knows that she's nothing of the sort.


OK, duly noted.

RE the larger debate: Certainly don't need to see the debate limited or anything, but we go around like this every time a movie similar to this comes out and creates some controversy. People (I assume they're mostly men) say the movie is just a movie and that men are depicted in a negative manner all the time, and other people (I assume mostly women) say a movie isn't just a movie and the negative way in which women are depicted is uniquely damaging.

I'd just say to the men, when you live in a world where products (including movies, TV shows and video games) are marketed using pictures or illustrations of large cocks, where most victims of sexual assault are male and where the first thing most people notice about you is the size of your penis, you might know why this is kind of a big deal to us. Or maybe you have to have daughters to understand and fear that many people aren't kidding about their attitude that females are things to be used and discarded, like a doll you get tired of playing with. They're not kidding about it at all.

It's bad enough to know that violence (sexual and otherwise) against women is still so fucking common, but seeing it being aped by writers, directors and producers and sold as entertainment really does make it worse. If there was a genre of entertainment that featured sexual abuse of men (outside of porn) that millions of women spent millions of dollars on every year, I think men might have a problem with that. Esp. considering how many of them lost their shit over "Sex and the City 2," and its negative portrayals of and attitudes towards men, which did not include (as far as I know) anybody being power washed or raped.

Posted by: Slash at January 25, 2011 5:55 PM

From the depths of his Pajiba-ban induced drunken stupor, BigTodd stirred from his futon, sensing that the words "Palin," "sexualized," "Maddow," and "mysogyny" had been combined somewhere, somehow. His inexplicable anger soon developed into a boiling rage, which worked its way into his brain and exploded. BigTodd's hatred was so great, however, that instead of a stroke, what occurred was a single moment of pure genius - he realized how he could get around the ban from the tyrannical Pajiban overlords. And thus, Huligan was born.

Posted by: Kowala1000 at January 25, 2011 5:56 PM

Nevermind, scratch everything I said. After reading all the comments and looking at where the line was being drawn on this issue, I realized I don't want to be on either side of it. Male or female, human beings are pretty much vile little sex starved creatures with very little concern for anything but their own greed and egos. I'm not defending any of em.

Posted by: Blank at January 25, 2011 5:58 PM

I'll get back to the rest of the review immediately, but first I have to comment on this:

Palin in trivialized because she’s perceived as a sexual object

No, Palin is trivialised because she's a fucking moron. And that comes through clear even here, on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean (and after the thousands of miles from your West Coast to East Coast too).

Posted by: csb at January 25, 2011 6:01 PM

Seeing as how none of us have seen the film, I've decided that this type of argument is pretty ridiculous. It almost seems like soft censorship. Yet, I'm sure most of you would come leaping to Robert Mapplethorpe's defense. Gotta love liberals sometimes.

Posted by: Josh at January 25, 2011 6:07 PM

That's enough. I couldn't agree more. Our society is clearly losing its morals. This is sick, twisted, disgusting, and I don't understand why any would make this (including the actors, I don't care how much they paid you and it probably wasn't even that much), why any one would want to watch this, or how any one could defend it. Period.

Posted by: Littlejon2001 at January 25, 2011 6:10 PM

Gotta love liberals sometimes.

WE CRAZY!!

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 6:10 PM

And no, I'm not calling women whores because they sleep around. I'm saying they need to stop dressing and behaving like whores if they want us ALL to stop calling them whores. To stop treating them like whores.

For that matter, stop behaving like whores if you want respect. Body shots in your bra and panties might make you feel cool or empowered, but all you're basically doing is broadcasting that you'll soon be drunk enough to screw anyone present. Making out with your bff in front of a group of screaming dudes doesn't mean you're a strong, independent woman who's spontaneous and fun, it screams you'll be down for a threesome or moresome with those present. If you argue that it doesn't mean you will do that, then you haven't grasped the concept of perception and appearance.

I shall defer to Dave Chappelle; No, just because you are dressed or act like a whore doesn't make you a whore, but who's fault is it when we get confused?

Posted by: protoguy at January 25, 2011 6:11 PM

Why do some of you insist on placing the filmmaker in the same moral position as the protagonist in the film?

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I was trying to do. Using the original I Spit On Your Grave (the only movie in this genre I've seen) as an example, there comes a point after which the moral positions of the characters are irrelevant. If the filmmaker fixes the camera's gaze on atrocity long enough, things like character motivation and story arc drop away, and it just becomes an exercise in brutality qua brutality.

Posted by: sansho1 at January 25, 2011 6:14 PM

Let's be clear here:

A whore is an individual (male or female) who provides sex in exchange for money.

A person who dresses in a lewd or provocative manner is undoubtedly sartorially challenged but is not a whore.

Posted by: PaddyDog at January 25, 2011 6:16 PM

So, I'm guessing it's wrong that I only clicked on this because of the picture of the hot, provocatively posed lady?

Also, as one of the earlier posters mentioned: You did walk out of the movie, that gets your pandering pass pulled.

Posted by: dangermoose at January 25, 2011 6:16 PM

My god! We got Palin, the Clintons, torture, politics, sex, fox news, and assorted trolls.


We’re going to need a bigger boat!

Posted by: Pookie at January 25, 2011 6:22 PM

Making out with your bff in front of a group of screaming dudes doesn't mean you're a strong, independent woman who's spontaneous and fun, it screams you'll be down for a threesome or moresome with those present.

I don't know...when I do that I'm not telegraphing that I want a threesome, I just want the boys to throw money at me. So I can go back to that mall we girls love so much.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 6:26 PM

Yes, most of the commentators on Fox News are women. But they are nearly all blond look-alikes. If that doesn't creep you out, this kind of documentary might be for you.

But this type of misogyny in film is actually the reason that I couldn't enjoy "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo". There was no sense of victory at the end when we had to see/learn the sexual violence that the main female characters (Lisbeth and Harriet) had to endure and avenge.

Posted by: mfg at January 25, 2011 6:32 PM

I don't know...when I do that I'm not telegraphing that I want a threesome, I just want the boys to throw money at me. So I can go back to that mall we girls love so much.

And I've been at clubs and parties where that's exactly what happened. The money throwing I mean. Accompanied by both the men AND the women present cheering and clapping.

I'm not arguing that activities of this sort aren't fun and empowering. I'm sure they are. I'm arguing that when you objectify yourself in such a manner, it's awful hard to blame others for running with the ball you threw them.

I know it sounds like blaming the girl for being raped but it's not that. Rape is wrong and therefore the rapist should be punished, but you don't wear bacon pants in hyena country.

And women Fox newscasters are like Stepford Wives come to life and lying about Muslims taking over the White House.

Posted by: protoguy at January 25, 2011 6:50 PM

Can we make a distinction here? Sluts dress provocatively so they can revel in the attention brought on by teasing the room and then get laid if they deem one of the teasees worthy. Whores dress provocatively to advertise a business which brings satisfaction to whomever can pay the fee. Ironically our culture widely considers the latter worse.

Posted by: Eep at January 25, 2011 6:55 PM

We’re going to need a bigger boat!

Posted by: Pookie at January 25, 2011 6:22 PM

Agreed. Bigger boat means more hos.

Julie, two questions:

1. Are you available for booking?
2. Are you available for dancing on my boat?

Oh, and I only have Sacagawea golden coins. I assume that won't be a problem.

Posted by: L.O.V.E. at January 25, 2011 7:00 PM

wow dustin, see this is what i knew you had in you. it's antagonistic at times, and yes it has morons, but it is a lively animated discussion based on text.

that being said, i am probably more horrified by some people's thoughts than by the movie.

but thoughts out in the world can be addressed, repressed thoughts fester and turn into arsenic jello.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 7:00 PM

Oops, Paddydog already got it.

Posted by: Eep at January 25, 2011 7:03 PM

You did walk out of the movie, that gets your pandering pass pulled.

I would be more upset if he didn't walk out. THAT is why I come here.

Posted by: mswas at January 25, 2011 7:18 PM

Jesus Christ. I was originally going to make a joke about Protoguy deferring to Dave Chappelle, noted feminist and pillar of wisdom, but then my computer got all freezy and kicked me off and when I came back this had been written:

"I know it sounds like blaming the girl for being raped but it's not that. Rape is wrong and therefore the rapist should be punished, but you don't wear bacon pants in hyena country."

Posted by: protoguy at January 25, 2011 6:50 PM

I'm sorry, but your entire argument IS tantamount to saying women who dress provocatively get what's coming to them - from getting called sluts to being raped. It doesn't matter if you're dressing it up by stating rape is wrong, etc, because the implication is that you believe women are responsible for acts committed against them. That's the kind of twisted and fucked up logic I'll never be able to wrap my mind around.

Posted by: nosio at January 25, 2011 7:19 PM

Bacon pants! In hyena country! Good one. And I sorta agree that if you don't want to be perceived a certain way you should avoid dressing that way.
BUT
I have seldom heard women who dress scantily (use your imaginations) complain about the attention or even care how they are perceived. It's pissed off feminists like me who don't dress that way who give a shit. But we all get tarred from the same brush, is the problem. Or do we? I can't remember the last time I clutched my pearls in shock from being objectified.

Posted by: Chickaboom at January 25, 2011 7:31 PM

I rarely clutch pearls. I do horrible things with them instead. And if a guy leers at my tits when I'm wearing a low cut shirt, that's fine-I wore it to make my cleavage look hot. But bacon pants is a silly comparison to women who dress provocatively and then get harassed. Just because you leave your car keys in the ignition doesn't give someone the right to steal it.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 7:35 PM

Wow, protoguy. So, since I'm a woman, and a fairly educated one, if I chose to wear something low cut, that makes me a whore? You know what, IT DOES NOT. It makes a woman who is confident in how she looks. I dress to make myself feel good. I don't dress for my husband or anyone else in this world. By the way, what sort of attire makes a woman a whore?

Also, I don't actually go to the mall unless I have to. Those women you see at the mall are typically teenaged girls who needs somewhere to hang out after school. Those same girls are why I don't go to the mall. I also like to keep my money for important things, like things I can't buy at the the mall.

You should really evaluate your stance on judging someone based on their looks. Just because some one is dressed in a way that you would consider "whore"-ish DOES NOT mean they "deserve" what happens to them. By that logic, should all women wear burkas to stop men from objectifying them?

Posted by: Melody at January 25, 2011 7:37 PM

I just don’t understand why the need to depict brutal, agonizing misogyny to make a point about misogyny, especially when that point is largely missed by most of the people who would watch such a movie.

Same reason that a large percentage of comments in this thread got typed: rape culture and its bff, slut shaming.

Posted by: Angeleno Ewok at January 25, 2011 7:38 PM

Not the right to take it, but knowing that people steal cars, shouldn't you make sure that you have your keys in your hand when you get out?

Plus the phrase "bacon pants" is awesome. Less so in this context, but otherwise brilliant.


Posted by: Chickaboom at January 25, 2011 7:41 PM

I know it sounds like blaming the girl for being raped [...] but you don't wear bacon pants in hyena country."

That little bolded "but" right there means you are.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at January 25, 2011 7:42 PM

Well, maybe Chicka :) And bacon pants are only awesome if I get to eat them with french toast pajamas.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 7:43 PM

Speaking of Bacon Pants and Pearls, if I’m not mistaken in the bible is does say “do not cast your pearls before swine.

Posted by: Pookie at January 25, 2011 7:44 PM

My bacon pants are super low-rise. I'm not looking for attention; I just got really hungry reading through all these comments.

Posted by: nosio at January 25, 2011 7:52 PM

This has been a pretty big stinkfest of a day, but I think 'bacon pants,' might be the point at which Tuesday is fired. I'm just gonna go home and nurse a tequila and coo over the Puppy Bowl line up until I forget today ever happened.

Posted by: Angeleno Ewok at January 25, 2011 7:56 PM

They posted the Puppy Bowl lineup?! I will take my baconpants to Animal Planet's website post haste.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 7:57 PM

Julie

Yes, it's up! My favorite this year is Oliver.

Posted by: Angeleno Ewok at January 25, 2011 8:03 PM

I'm so happy Pookie's back.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at January 25, 2011 8:03 PM

This is a difficult subject. No matter how outraged I become, in the end, all I can do is teach my kids that all people deserve respect and live that way to model it. But if I want to battle the rape culture, I also have to deal with stripper pole exercise classes, and toddlers in tiaras, real housewives of wherever (who may or may not have gotten married for the money) and who knows what all. That's a lot to take on. Nobody deserves bad things to happen to them, even due to a lack of caution. Violence toward women in movies or any other media is unacceptable, and we can vote with our hard earned dollars whether we support that shit or not.

Posted by: Chickaboom at January 25, 2011 8:05 PM

Angeleno Ewok-I want the Shih Tzu (I had one as a kid) and the shepherd mix. And the Pyrenees. And...the rest of them. SO CUTE.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 8:07 PM

Word, Chickaboom. Now go look at puppies! Puppies negate the rapeyness in all of us.

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 8:08 PM

They posted the Puppy Bowl lineup?! I will take my baconpants to Animal Planet's website post haste.

And that is why I'm on this site.

Posted by: Brenton at January 25, 2011 8:09 PM

No one ever rapes me because my bacon pants are turkey bacon. :(

Sad!

Posted by: Snuggiepants at January 25, 2011 8:16 PM

I don’t like puppies but I loves me some Shepard’s pie.

Thank you thank you.

I’ll be here all week. Don’t forget to tip the waitress and by all means, try the fish.

Posted by: Pooke at January 25, 2011 8:16 PM

Awwwwww! So cute!
Are you reading those "fun facts"?

Posted by: Chickaboom at January 25, 2011 8:22 PM

Bacon pants in hyena country. Will wonders never cease? What a turn of phrase!

No one ever rapes me because I'm a vegetarian and my bacon pants are made of soy. (True story.)

Posted by: MM at January 25, 2011 8:24 PM

ok, i know i lose any points i got back on pajiba, but, THERE IS NO RAPE CULTURE GOING ON.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 8:55 PM

I get it, your 19 and you've been through a single semester of university, following your hearts desire, in womens studys.

So now, there is a big evil world out there, full of the total monsters than men are, trying to rape women.

and you have been taught, the whole culture is a rape culture. so, even when some institution or man is sympathetic, he doesn't get it, he's part of the rape culture.

so, i can't reach you right now. I am a male, i.e. rapist.

When you get out, i just wish you to know, that we outerworld men do not condone rape. We wish equality, and we actually have been fighting as men for 40 years to not be villainized, and to encourge equality.

i am with you in university, a minority, because men are a minority in university. I wish you know harm.

I am terrified that if i make contact with you, that i will be burned for harassing you. but i will make contact with a signal, because i do believe we can live together.

but take heart, you will survive, you have the tools and institutions. no woman will ever go down, even if her grades suffer.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 9:07 PM

I only rape people in soy bacon pants.

Because I hate vegetarians.

Posted by: ZombieMedic at January 25, 2011 9:13 PM

yes, lets reduce the horror of rape to a funny.

i was trying to separate rape and so-called 'rape-culture' from other discourse. perhaps i shouldn't have

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 9:17 PM

Idle, I personally don't think there is a rape culture. I don't know what even means, honestly. I think women should be careful. Girls in college especially. I think some guys have warped views of women. Some men are rapists. Not many. Very few. Most are good and decent men, the type I befriend and date. I was more commenting on protoguy's comments about women and whores. I don't look at a guy and think "GAH! He could rape me with that penis!" I look at men and think "Cute butt." Or "Shitty sense of humor." Or "YAY, he likes reading!"

Posted by: Julie at January 25, 2011 9:36 PM

sigh. For the record: Rape culture does not mean every man is a rapist/potential rapist. Rape culture means we live in a culture which makes it easy for certain men to commit and get away with rape and for women to be blamed for being assaulted because they were totally asking for it by dressing that way/walking down that street alone/flirting with that sketchy guy/getting too drunk, etc (see: protoguy's comments, the media's response to learning that Julian Assange was accused of having sex with a woman while she was unconcious). It means that when women accuse men of rape they are accused in turn of being sluts or liars, or of just regretting a consensual experience. It means men are encouraged to treat women as objects and conquests rather than people (not that all men will do this, just that the culture promotes that kind of thinking). Just putting that out there.

Posted by: dr. pisaster at January 25, 2011 9:49 PM

Everyone knows you don't wear bacon pants after Labor Day, no matter what country you're in.

Posted by: MelBivDevoe at January 25, 2011 9:51 PM

Thank you, dr. pisaster.

I fucking hate rape 'jokes'. Tell me how it's funny to say something 'raped' you/your childhood/whatever when what you mean is that it annoyed you/took from you/did something you didn't like, tell me how funny it is after you spend time in a store at Christmas with a woman who bursts into tears because 'Carol of the Bells' comes on and that's the song that was playing when she was raped.

Tell me how goddamn funny that joke is.

Posted by: TWoP_Fan at January 25, 2011 10:12 PM

Apologies, TWoP_Fan. You are correct. Rape jokes are not now, nor ever, funny.

But when someone says that dressing provocatively is like wearing "bacon pants in hyena country", we've clearly crossed over into the absurd. That's some bullshit where you have to either laugh or cry, so sometimes it's easier to make a joke.

Posted by: MM at January 25, 2011 10:22 PM

I get what you are saying. What I ask, is, does this "rape culture" exist? at all.

my data suggests that there are only a small amount of strange rapes out there. most "rapes" are in families. and those rapes were back in high school. It happens, its bad, and it does not include every teenager experimenting with sex.

so we have achieved lots of sloppy regrettable sex by boys and girls.

I could be a rapist according to this new law: It had nothing to do with a man forcing himself on a woman, and everything to do with outlawing sex: you could be a hapless man, meet a girl, she could be happy to meet you, the both of you could drink and talk the night away. eventually it might lead to sex. in the morning, she might feel embarrassed due to her religious upbringing, and regret the sex, and then she could press charges on me.

Of course, that charge might not win in a court of law.

What would be iron clad, is if she was pregnant. In that case, we have a holy law. only women may choose whether a child is born or not. Everything to do with families comes down to a hungover girl. and if the man gets in the way, then he goes to jail.

It's when I come to this point that I find fault with our feminist evolution. i don't mind getting kicked out of jobs, i don't mind being jibed for being, i just mind having no say in having a baby.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 11:01 PM

I just want to say that between the header pic and some of the victim-blaming going on in the comments I am feeling sick to my stomach.

And no, the bacon analogy was not witty or funny or correct or necessary.

I just...free speech, yadda, yadda, yadda I get it but some of y'all are completely off the chain, yo.

And not in a good way.

Whatever, I think I'll go get some hard-ass feminist Jezebel screeching to cleanse my female mind and soul a bit.

Posted by: Slappysquirrel at January 25, 2011 11:02 PM

Just to weigh in for a second, this argument (that has been had ad nauseum on this site) is just pointless. I mean, ok, show of hands: how many of you SERIOUSLY want women to get raped in real life? How many readers of PAJIBA want to see a woman be brutalized?

None? None. Yeah, I thought so.

Let's move the fuck on already.

Posted by: The Pink Hulk at January 25, 2011 11:04 PM

A guy who says he doesn't believe in rape culture is akin to a white person saying we live in a post-racial world. Must be nice to be blind to the things that scream at me every day.

Posted by: Reba at January 25, 2011 11:07 PM

Quick, show of hands: How many people know someone who was raped or was raped themselves? Nothing to see here folks, let's just move the fuck along and not worry about the jokes and references that trigger the PTSD. It was just a regrettable teenage moment that happened with your uncle holding you down...

Jesus Christ on a crutch. Can we not dismiss rape in its entirety because it makes people uncomfortable? That would be a great step in the right direction. And rape and its apologists ARE on topic, because the movie Dustin walked out on depicts rape and the documentary he watched deals with objectification and dismissal of things that diminish women. But god forbid we talk about that in real terms. Bacon pants for everyone! (I do love the idea of bacon pants, I just wish this wasn't what generated it.)

And idleprimate, if you want to have a say in whether or not you have kids, I suggest only sleeping with women with whom you have had the discussion about what will happen if she gets pregnant. That way, if you don't like the answer, you can choose not to have sex with her.

Posted by: Reba at January 25, 2011 11:19 PM

My point is not to have the discussion, but maybe not to have the discussion every week. Do I have friends who were raped? Yes. Have I had sex forced on me when I was completely incapacitated? Yes. Is it all despicable and awful? Yes. But the point is...WHO HERE REALLY DISAGREES THAT IT IS AWFUL?

Maybe it's just me, but rape is not what I want to read about on a bloody entertainment website week in and week out. I mean, seriously, there is such a thing as preaching to the choir.

If you want to start an actual discourse on rape to some goons who could learn something from it, start it on Bloody Disgusting or some rapper's fan page.

Posted by: The Pink Hulk at January 25, 2011 11:27 PM

hey Reba,

I have a daughter, coming on 9 years old. Every discussion I participate in concerning her is REALLY FUCKING IMPORTANT TO ME.

I don't normally go to this level, but, REBA, if you are still listening, GO FUCK YOURSELF.

until then, yes i am caustic, yes i make fun about our sillinesss, and yes, i even fun drink.

But if you think you can cast any shadow on my child, then FUCK YOU TOTALLY.

oh, you didn't get it, FUCK YOURSELF.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 11:28 PM

Easy ways to not have kids. It's called selectively choosing your partners or PUTTING A HAT ON IT.

Just saying.

Rape and sexual assault exists and it is not something to be ignored. Making the egregious error of blaming the victim does so much more harm than good. Until you know someone who has been in that situation, you cannot judge them.

Posted by: Melody at January 25, 2011 11:32 PM

Man, Reba, I am doing a Chang slow clap over here. You have just pinpointed why I am feeling both rage and sadness after reading some of the commentary written by what I am assuming are some of the usually eloquent and sensitive men of Pajiba.

Guess what, guys? You don't get to comment on whether or not rape culture exists because you're right, to you it probably doesn't (if you're the guy who says yes it does because it has happened or can potentially happen to my mother, sister, wife, etc. I'm obviously not directing this at you). We ladies, however, live with the possibility that it just might happen at some point in our lives. Sure, God/Godtopus/your higher being of choice or lack thereof willing it probably won't, and no, that doesn't mean I'm necessarily living in constant fear or anxiety but the fact that the possibility is there if I happens to be a woman walking down a poorly lit street at night, the thought sitting there in the back of my mind is fucking enough to say hell yes rape culture exists.

Oh, also, crying fake rape is the exception, not the rule so I wish people would stop sounding the alarm on the possibility that a woman will claim rape to get out of an embarrassing/shameful/regrettable night of drunken sex. Be still, male hearts, I promise that I and most women will not have any problem telling their girlfriends/sisters/cousins the whole sordid story of how we were fucking drunk and woke up the next day and omg fucking regret fucking you! "Crying rape" will not be an out for most any women unless she is mentally unstable because most of us understand that rape is nothing to joke about or pretend we were victims of it. I think most of us all live our lives hoping that we will not be part of the statistic of women who have had the unfortunate luck of running into fucking idiots who claim to not understand that "no" means "no" no matter how drunk, scantily clad or "easy" they think I am to do something as stupid or fucked up as cry rape for no reason other than to "save face."

Shit, man. I don't necessarily need anyone to agree with me but let's at least be somewhat respectful of the subject.

I need a fucking drink.

Posted by: Slappysquirrel at January 25, 2011 11:32 PM

Guess what, Slappysquirrel? Men DO get to comment on whether or not a rape culture exists, because rape can happen to guys, too. I promise.

Posted by: The Pink Hulk at January 25, 2011 11:40 PM

Touche.

But I meant more that men couldn't necessarily comment on whether or not rape culture existed for women.

Nevertheless, you make a good point in terms of this being very real for men too so my apologies for (unintentionally) excluding them.

Also, I highly doubt any male who has experienced rape or knows someone who has would be as dismissive of the idea of rape culture as some of the males on this site have been and my ire was more directed at them.

I'm speaking to those who engage in micro-invalidating these very real and experiences.

Posted by: Slappysquirrel at January 25, 2011 11:45 PM

so, the only people who can speak about rape are people who come out?

I was a male escort and got raped. should i be allowed to speak? I am straight. And i had a horrific experience. I had more than one horrific experience.

I never want any thinking about what matters to rely on any movie. even a bad movie. if we are going to talk, then let talk.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 25, 2011 11:48 PM

idleprimate, I am assuming that any male who has had any of those experiences would understand why people are stating that rape culture exists.

To me, it doesn't compute that someone who hasn't had the experience and so the experience or idea wouldn't be real or valid to them can then, with authority, turn around and tell others, "pshaw, it doesn't exist, it's all a made up construct."

My point being if you haven't lived or experienced it you have no right to say with certainty that it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist for you (thank goodness) and hopefully it never will because I'm not sitting here hoping it will so that you can join this "special" club.

But don't sit there and make the kind of statements you've made, not realizing that they're not only insensitive but also unfair given that it is very real for others.

And frankly, some of that talk of men being in danger of having women make false rape claims after regrettable sex was just unbelievable. Excuse me for getting my feathers ruffled on that one.

It's a sensitive subject regardless so before anyone says it I probably need to take myself out of it just because I probably won't be able to hang with the cool kids when it comes to joking about it, being dismissive or just being caustic period.

Posted by: Slappysquirrel at January 25, 2011 11:55 PM

Goddamit, I really don't want to get back into this, but you guys are getting seriously crazy in here. NOONE at all, besides rapists wants to see a woman get raped. But there are conversations about feminism that need to be had, and they can't all lead back here. If a woman is raped it's the rapists fault. PERIOD. but that wasn't what we were talking about.
We were talking about a society objectifying women. Does that lead to rape? It possibly might. But maybe we should look at some of the causes of that. Maybe we should try and talk about why it happens, using terms that we can all fathom. Women say men can't talk about, understand, or fathom "rape culture". Well then that word has no meaning in a conversation outside of soley women. We all are involved in this culture.
It may be hard to fathom but men also care about women getting raped. No it doesn't frequently happen to us, but we all have mothers, daughters, girlfriends, and and endless array of other words to describe the women we care deeply for. The last thing any of us want is to see them hurt. Enough so that we want to ask these same questions about how to prevent it.
If the problem is our society and not entirely the fault of deeply disturbed, morally emaciated, and completely devoid of empathy individuals. Then yes women can play a role in the views of that society as well as men. So if we're going to talk about all of our responsibility as the shapers of our civilizations, than lets try to keep the conversation above making all men seeming like sex crazed monsters and all women as drunken sorority girls. We're fucking human people. Let's act like it.

Posted by: Blank at January 25, 2011 11:57 PM

I am lifting my margarita to you, Slappysquirrel.


For anyone who is interested/has questions about rape culture, this old Shakesville post is pretty great: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

I think this bit is particularly relevant to the this thread:
Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to "learn common sense" or "be more responsible" or "be aware of barroom risks" or "avoid these places" or "don't dress this way," and failing to admonish men to not rape.

Sigh. Back to the booze for me.

Posted by: Angeleno Ewok at January 25, 2011 11:59 PM

Do I have friends who were raped? Yes. Have I had sex forced on me when I was completely incapacitated? Yes.

Posted by: The Pink Hulk at January 25, 2011 11:27 PM


My heart goes out to you and your friends Pink Hulk. I have friends Pink Hulk and luckily nothing bad has happened to them other than being arrested for driving with an expired license or shoplifting or things of that nature. We live in bad times when a guy’s friends aren't even safe.

Posted by: Pookie at January 26, 2011 12:22 AM

Shit happens. Usually good shit. Occasionally bad shit. But you have to learn to let the good shit define you, not the bad shit.

Deep huh?

Posted by: The Pink Hulk at January 26, 2011 12:30 AM

I would just like to point out that "Bacon Pants" was totally lifted from Carolyn Hax of The Washington Post. So, unoriginal AND a rape apologist.

Posted by: the bees knees at January 26, 2011 1:12 AM

This is starting to remind me of that Observe and Report review thread.

watch out. somebody goin' to get banned.

Posted by: L.O.V.E. at January 26, 2011 1:33 AM

To sum up:

Holy fuck balls.

Posted by: Brenton at January 26, 2011 3:20 AM

Um, no, that's kinda the opposite of what I said.

Women who dress provocatively, hence the word provocatively, tend to provoke reactions. I would posit that the more provocative the stronger the reaction. I did not say the reaction was right or wrong anymore than I said it was deserved. I did not say rape was the deserved punishment for such dress or action, nor did I say it was the likely outcome.

I argue that the way you dress and the way you act defines you, at least publicly, outwardly. If your idea of a fun dance at the club is grinding your coochy as close the the floor as you can while your girlfriend swings her crotch in your face, it's more than just the guys in the crowd need to see to fully believe you'd take it in the men's bathroom, whether that's true or not. How you got to me saying some nice office cleavage was tantamount to condoning rape is beyond me.

I didn't say a person like that deserved to get raped or even objectified. I specifically said that rape was badong.

I said that the objectification of women is two way. I didn't say they deserved the response they get. The reality is that it is the response that is expected. No, not rape, you asshats. Objectification. Should we cry for the actress "forced" to portray this role? Or maybe she hoped to make the part more of a feminist take on torture porn? Or maybe she just wants so bad to be a real actress like Saint Angie that she took a shitty role in a shitty little pet project from a guy who never grew out of his 7 year old "if I could just imprison the girl she'll do what I want" fantasy.

Jesus Christ people get a fucking grip. Feel free to wear that extra shirt-within-a-shirt-that-looks-like-a-bra-but-only-has-bralike-straps if you like, Melody. Cleavage doesn't make you a whore. Using them to get the copy guy to fix your machine first does.

And thank you Chickaboom for my favorite consumer item: stripper pole exercise class. It's hard to argue with such classy modern day marvels like asshole bleaching, veejazzling and the fact that Snooki has a best seller.

And fuck you dr. pisaster for re-spinning the lie that I said women deserved rape.

I am not talking about rape culture, I'm talking about whore/slut/whatever culture where it's perfectly ok to have the likes of Miley Cyrus waving her freshly lazered crotch in our children's faces. No! Where we pay damn good money for the privelege of having our kids' role models be miniaturized slut-ertainers. I'm talking abou all of us being complicit in this meta-lie we live in where we feed off the very thing we hate. We despise the violent culture yet crave violent entertainment. We deplore the sexuality in media and spend every last buck we've got buying it up.

We blame everyone else for this happening when it is us.

Posted by: Protoguy at January 26, 2011 4:27 AM

Good shit, Dustin.

Man I hate being in the wrong fucking timezone to participate in these slanging matches.

Posted by: zeke the pig at January 26, 2011 4:51 AM

Let me ask a simple question or two.

Are men the likely consumer of anything Kim Kardashian has to offer? Do men purchase her perfumes or purses or t-shirts or whatever the woman is selling? Do men tend to be the viewers of her television shows? Do men care about whether she's happy or pregnant or engaged or mad at her sister?

No. Men care about her big ass and her big tits.

Women are the ones buying her products, watching her reality show, buying magazines she's in. So, why? Because they want to be what they believe men want them to be, based on who society(us) has foist out as relevant or something?

So who is participating in the objectification? Men aren't spending that money. Kim Kardashian would go away if there were no money to be made off her. Seems like many want it to be a one way street when it really just isn't. It seems to me that it's hardly fair to expect men to behave like saints while the maenads dance around us.

And no I don't mean rape, assholes

Posted by: protoguy at January 26, 2011 5:05 AM

BTW Melody, if you truly believe you don't dress for your "husband or anyone else in this world" you've got bigger ego issues than whether or not I called you a whore for dressing provocatively.

Also, I know the difference between teenage girls hanging at Claire's and over-dressed, Prada-toting housewives shopping at Dillard's. Clearly if you don't go to the mall, I wasn't referring to you.

That was a nice parallel to Islamist extremism there. That was cute. I thought that was reserved for Fox news bunnies like Megan Kelly. Where's the joke about me wanting to install stoning for immodest dress?

You want to leap on me because I made the mistake of including the word rape somewhere within my text and you people are acting like search engines who can't read anything beyond keywords.

We fucking let our daughter's and sons dress like whores and thugs and we cry over how awful society is. My daughter doesn't behave or dress that way because she respects herself and I'm a single-fucking-dad who's fully aware of how the world effects my child. I didn't have to brow-beat her or chaperone her with a hatchet in my trunk. I treated her with the same respect I wanted her to feel for herself. Do you think it was a happy accident that she isn't enthralled by the exploits of Paris Hilton and the Herpes Express? Do you think I got lucky and she just happened to gravitate towards smarter interests? No, it's because we didn't sit and watch Jersey Shore. We watched Firefly. We didn't go see Miley Cyrus grinding gay dancers, we went to the Grand Canyon.

So, then the next assumption to make is that none of us here have raised a hellion? None have spawned a future Sweet 16 spoiled brat? No backyard wrestling idiot making up folding chair stunts? Then shut up and be happy you did your job right. You can't do anything about the rest of the idiocracy.

Posted by: protoguy at January 26, 2011 5:44 AM

It's shameful that a discussion of rape turns into ugly rants of male grievance just because a couple of jerks are willing to shout louder and longer than anybody else. Empathy is clearly not a guiding principle in these discussions, is it?

Posted by: sansho1 at January 26, 2011 6:32 AM

The Pink Hulk, you are a voice of calm and sanity here, and I agree with everything you said.

Now, it's time for breakfast and all this talk of bacon pants is making me hungry.

Posted by: meaux at January 26, 2011 6:54 AM

When did rape become cool? I completely missed that movement. The first and only rape scene I've ever seen in a movie was in the remake of Last House on the Left. While I understand how it was part of the story, the way it was filmed made me really uneasy. I don't care what anyone says about it; at least part of the motivation for shooting the scene the way it was shot was to sexualize it at least a little, at least for someone.

You can talk about art and subtext all you want, but when people are cheering and hooting during rape/torture scenes (as was apparently happening during The Woman), I call BS.

Posted by: JohnnyBee at January 26, 2011 7:44 AM

There's two discussions here: the cultural and the individual.

Protoguy's right in one sense. He can't personally change the culture. All he can do is behave responsibly himself, raise his own kid and influence those in his own sphere.

I'm not particularly happy that I don't feel like it's safe to leave my teenage daughter to wait in the dark for the school bus by herself. My only power to change that is to protect her. To teach her that some situations are better avoided. Not that it makes her culpable for any injury she receives if she finds herself in those situations anyway, but if she can plan ahead and avoid it, then do so. I've got to teach her to live in the world as it is, not as it should be.

Posted by: Wednesday at January 26, 2011 7:49 AM

Hey Hulligan/Todd--so it's liberal not to want to see a woman raped? Good to know. I'll keep my liberal card.

Posted by: anikitty at January 26, 2011 10:18 AM

idleprimate, I never mentioned your child, not only because I didn't know you had one but also because I would never do that. The only part of my comment directed at you was that in order to have a say in what a woman does when she finds out she's pregnant, it's best to have a conversation before that possibility arises. That seems fairly respectful to me, so your vitriol is confusing.

No idea why you decided that I was targeting you, when most of my comment was directed at the dude who said that men are so fucking stupid and amoral that they automatically assume a woman wearing clothing they find attractive and dancing in a way that they find appealing is willing to have sex with strangers in the bathroom. Are some women? Sure. Are most of them? No, otherwise it wouldn't bear mentioning because it would be mundane.

I don't think most men are so simple as to regard women that way. I think most men actually consider women people and don't assume that everything a woman does is designed to please some jackwad she's never met. As the mother of two boys, I sure as hell hope most people don't see men as mindless animals. But there are, quite obviously, people who do think that way and are unashamed to imply that it's a woman's fault if she gets raped, despite the fact that most rapes happen in a person's home, by someone they know, often people to whom they are related, so the warnings are just a way of saying "if you dress in a way someone might consider slutty, you should expect men to behave incredibly badly" - which I think is utter bullshit.

Posted by: Reba at January 26, 2011 10:22 AM

Angeleno Ewok, thanks for the link to Shakesville. I'd never seen it before, and it's fantastic.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at January 26, 2011 10:56 AM

Wow.

I am sitting at home with my 2 boys waiting on the big ol' snowfall that is due to commence in an hour or so. Reading these comments has been a thought provoking way to engage my brain like SpongeBob and Adventure Time fail to do. Wish I had something to add to the discussion but I'm at a loss.

The sleet has begun and the oven is ready for brownies.

And Hellboy just got popped into the dvd player (bad Mommy!). The 8 year old at least refers to it as "H"boy so as not to curse. He chose the movie. ;)

Posted by: latvianluck at January 26, 2011 10:59 AM

Umm, this may not be entirely relevant but I do go to the mall sometimes and I don't have a "real" job. But my job is not "shopping and dressing and eating". I am a stay-at-home mom (yes, even stay-at-home moms can be liberals and Pajibans). And a lot of my shopping time is focused on getting books and clothes for my kids; I'm not just farting around at the mall. Please do not see me at the mall and assume I'm just there to blow my husband's money. (Or that I only have money because I blow my husband.--No, wait, that part is actually probably true.)

Posted by: pickled tink at January 26, 2011 11:41 AM

@slappysquirrel,

with all due respect, in the immortal words of Dustin Rowles, go fuck yourself.

men aren't allowed to comment on this notion of a rape culture?

you presume to account for all rape accusations, with the utopic ideal that human beings are honest and without agenda?

you assume i am posturing when i admit to having been sexually assaulted (which is ironic concerning your thoughts on women declaring rape).

you believe that because rape happens, that somehow we live in an incredibly dangerous predatory society, that you call rape culture, despite the relative safety and security most everyone operates in every day?

again, to be succinct, go fuck yourself.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 26, 2011 12:50 PM

Eh. I will admit that I ranted and raved and reacted to insensitive commentary that I thought was insensitive and bordered on cruel. Yes dialogue is necessary and the subject is one that everyone will have an opinion about and some more will be more sensitive and empathetic than others and thems the brakes so I refuse to take the bait.

Instead I will sat that my ire was bright on by what I perceived as people getting into slut-shaming and invalidating very real experiences and I get that people don't have to get why that would be insulting and upsetting. I do.

With that said I'll just reflect on the more thoughtful comments presented by some in what is an emotional topic.

Posted by: Slappysquirrell at January 26, 2011 2:47 PM

And with all the grammatical and redundancy inherent in my previous comment I will say that the perception that we as women feed into our own objectification because of how we dress and our actions is one with which I don't necessarily agree but that I do admit warrants thought in terms of how the idea itself feeds into rape culture.

Posted by: Slappysquirrell at January 26, 2011 2:53 PM

Slappy, alot of your comments are seriously confusing the ever loving shit out of me. If we live in a culture that aids the rape of women by the objectification of women, then how in the fuck could you ever possibly concieve that women objectifying themselves soley for the purpose of being objects doesn't do the same fucking thing.

Posted by: Blank at January 26, 2011 3:12 PM

it seems that our popular culture celebrates shameful sluttiness (entire E/MTV line-up) to a far greater extent and acceptance than rape..does this make me a rape-sympathizer, or was it just my penis?

Posted by: dangermoose at January 26, 2011 3:34 PM

I was going to respond to you, Blank but then the irony of defending the idea of why the way women *choose* to dress or act, whether or not it's half-naked or to grind or make a scene, does not aid in the rape of said women struck me.

Angeleno's Shakesville article as well as other lady eloquents say more than I could so I'll just let this go.Peace out.

Posted by: Slappysquirrel at January 26, 2011 3:46 PM

I never said that a woman's choice do sress or act a certain way aids in the rape of that woman. I said that a woman's choice to act that way affects our entire society's views of women. A society you choose to view as a rape culture. There is an ocean of difference there. If we're going to talk about this let's actually do it. Don't put words in my mouth.

Posted by: Blank at January 26, 2011 3:48 PM

I mean are you honestly claiming that women have absolutely ZERO part in the objectification of women. Because I honestly think that might be a more dangerous view than anything I've heard here. Women don't exist in a vacuum as nothing more than victims. We all affect our world, and choosing to believe that nothing you do affects it negatively is really fucking dangerous to everyone.

Posted by: Blank at January 26, 2011 3:53 PM

If we live in a culture that aids the rape of women by the objectification of women, then how in the fuck could you ever possibly concieve that women objectifying themselves soley for the purpose of being objects doesn't do the same fucking thing.

Just let it go. You know what, never mind, I'm officially disengaging from conversation with you and am going to frolic in one of the other more frothy fun posts.

Posted by: Slappysquirrel at January 26, 2011 3:55 PM

Yeah I give up, Obviously ignoring the problems would be more effective than talking about them openly. That's seemed to work so well.

Posted by: Blank at January 26, 2011 4:05 PM

kudos, Blank

Posted by: dangermoose at January 26, 2011 4:13 PM

I have tried to stay out of this one as it hits very close to home. There is one person (in most cases, unless it's a gang rape) at fault for the act of rape and that is THE FUCKING RAPIST. I don't care if a woman is walking around buck naked or dresses slutty or society/media objectifies her or if she objectifies herself or whatever, no woman or man asks to be violated in such a humiliating and violent way. This shit stays with you forever no matter who you forgive or how much therapy you get or any of the other bullshit they say will give you healing.

Okay, I'm done.

Posted by: Jadine at January 26, 2011 4:38 PM

This is tough. I'm not calling you out though, really I think its everyone else that is responsible.

Posted by: Bianca Martucci at January 26, 2011 5:05 PM

Let me put it another way. If I go to jail, I am aware that there are mean men in there who want my black cherry reeaal bad. Do I want to strut through the lunchroom doing the meatspin with a target on my butt? If I get raped it's still the rapist raping me. He's still the bad guy. He's still the objectifying villain, but who's getting proper fucked?

You know there are these people who commit crimes right? You don't park your car at the mall without locking the doors, especially if you have some junk in the trunk you value.

Don't lock the door. In fact, put that big bag from Bailey, Banks and Biddle right on the dash because you're a strong empowered human who parks where they want. Hey, you're just out shopping and having fun. I'm not saying it's your fault if you get robbed, but you're still getting robbed. Because... ya know...there are these people out there who target shopping malls to look for easy targets.

Posted by: Protoguy at January 26, 2011 5:05 PM

@slappysquirrel,

thanks for the comments on my blog, your in my thoughts and prayers too.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 26, 2011 6:12 PM

@idleprimate

Nope, not me. I mean, I wouldn't be above following someone to their blog or anything but my participation in this thread was enough for me. Damn near got an aneurysm and all for naught.

But I can never get enough thoughts or prayers so thanks.

Posted by: Slappysquirrel at January 26, 2011 6:25 PM

my apologies slappy, it was someone else then, whose ire I elevated so much that they had to come pee on my place.

Posted by: idleprimate at January 26, 2011 7:41 PM

Oh no, my ire was definitely elevated but not enough to go through the trouble of perusing another blog. I barely have the energy to get through posts here. Besides, anything I had to say had been said right here where it needed to be said.

Also, my mama raised me better than to pee in someone else's home.

I'll stick to lurking from now on. Much safer that way.

Posted by: Slappysquirrell at January 26, 2011 8:29 PM

The Other Agent Johnson: "Listen! And understand: That troll is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop."

YESSSSS! YES YES YES! This site needs more Terminator.

Posted by: L-Za at January 26, 2011 9:56 PM

I find this "review" and many of the comments here simply bizarre. I haven't seen The Woman, and neither has anyone else here, including Dustin (sorry, but if you walk out in the middle you can't really be said to have seen the film), but I have seen McKee's earlier films. Has anyone here actually seen May, or The Woods? They're both great, and they're both truly feminist films. Really.

Anyway, I've written about the reaction to The Woman (including this "review") on my blog here:

http://www.manboobz.com/2011/01/lucky-mckee-at-sundance-woman-and-white.html

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