Pajiba

If Jesus were alive today he'd be naked, in the back of a 22 inched 'Slade doing blow with me and my ho's.

Put THAT in your bible.

You lost me at "Reverend Billy".

When, oh when will people wise the hell up and realize that the only true religion is that of handling snakes?

My mother recently began participating in what I am deadbang certain is a pyramid scheme, which she fell hook-line-and-sinker for because every promotional video for it was rooted in Christian beliefs and philosophies.

It didn't help my case at all when I began to launch into the historically deceptive nature of "the church". I think I got an extra prayer said for me that night.

Hee! Given that the only people I have ever known go to DisneyWorld on Christmas Day are Jewish, he may have been misdirecting the whole "don't make a mockery of Christmas" message there.

Why is that whenever there is a good point to be made, some fanatical idiot or attention whore gets the cash to make it leaving those of us who support the fundamental position so turned off that we slink away in shame?

I think there are valid points to the euthanasia argument but the spokesmodel is daffy old Kervorkian.
I hate the idea of clubbing baby seals but Heather Mills makes me want to fashion my own club out of her leg.
And now again, we have an issue that really should be a major point of discussion today given the fact that almost half of the western world has over-spent itself half way to a new Depression, and the champions of the message have been handpicked to turn off all reasonable people.
I'm going to curl up somewhere now. Wake me when the okies start loading up the trucks and heading west.

This sounds insufferable. I'm no fan of the overspending in America, but don't fuck with Christmas.

I bought my brother a dancing dashboard Jesus for Christmas this year, one of the dumbest gifts I have ever spent four dollars on, and my repugnant and wasteful consumerism was fucking worth it...I made my brother laugh his ass off. Mission accomplished Reverend Billy, how about I go out and buy you a jewel encrusted ladder so you can climb it and get over yourself?

One more thing: I had to stare at that picture for 10 minutes before convincing myself it wasn't Joe Pesci, and I'm still not sure.

Paddy...I am now creeped out by that picture. He has the same Pesci look on his face when Kevin McCallister set his head on fire.

I find the thought process behind anti-consumerism very...mmm...incomplete. The fact is if suddenly, a whole sector of the populace started curtailing their spending the effects would be immediately devastating. Suppose you hav an "all American" suburb with say two malls, now suppose 50% of folks stopped going to the said malls. What do you think will happen?
I think, first you'd have lay-offs, then as a domino effect those laid-off would, in effect, not be able to meet their responsibilities followed by NOT being able to spend, which would in turn, cause MORE businesses to close, more lay-offs... etc.
Capitalism is like a shark it needs to keep going or it DIES. I wonder if Comrade Spurlock and his cronies even think about such things.

@ BSlim: I'd like to thank you and your first comment for reminding me of a quote from maybe the most awesomely absurd piece of cinematic silliness ever, Hudson Hawk.

If Da Vinci were alive today, he'd be eating mircowave sushi, naked, in the back of a Cadillac with the both of us.

The very idea is made more disturbing by the fact that one of "the both of us" is (shudder) Sandra Bernhard.

I actually liked this movie. I saw it a couple of months after King of Kong and week before the CNR documentary, and admittedly it was nowhere near as good as either of them. Still, I found it intriguing and enjoyable. And while I certainly wouldn't want to share a small one-bedroom apartment with the Rev. Billy, I didn't find him or his character particularly offensive.

Also, I'm not sure I understand how attacking the owners of Wal-Mart, for instance, would help matters any. They're not going to simply close up shop or stop advertising or not pimp the holidays out of a sense of ethical responsibility, and even if they did, it would be their rank-and-file employees who suffered most, at least in the near term, due to loss of revenue. Whether we like to admit it or not, nobody really is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to buy a Wii. They do it because they're afraid if they don't, their kids won't love them, or will pitch a giant stinking fit. Or because they think people assume that the more money you spend, the more money you must have, and will therefore respect and admire you if you can "afford" to buy your kids ludicrously overpriced and unnecessary crap. Or for any one of a million other equally flimsy reasons which, even if they were true, are only true because of some failing on their own part (seriously, if your kid is actually going to HATE you because you don't get him the right Christmas gift? That shit ain't Howard Schultz's fault by a long chalk -- that's the fault of you and your own lousy parenting). My point is, on an individual basis, whose responsibility is it, really, to keep our spending in line? If I am living outrageously beyond my means, racking up tens of thousands of credit card debt, and celebrating what is supposed to be the birth of a savior as if it were the scene in the Ten Commandments where they dance around the golden calf, that's not the fault of some billionaire corporate overlord. It's my fault, and nobody else's. If you're going to call the folly of that behavior to anyone's attention, I would think it would be mine, and not the CEO of Starbucks'.

I at least might listen to you.

Now, if you want to talk about an anti-corporate documentary that totally misses the mark, attacking the wrong people-wise, let's discuss The Yes Men. There, you might have a point.

Um... I'm not a vegan and I don't have dreadlocks but Tom's of Maine is the best toothpaste I've ever used. I don't get why you'd call it shitty, it's really good.

Twig, you know I've always loved ya, but Tom's of Maine tastes like someone ate a bunch of spearmint and then shit it out onto my toothbrush.

:)

Also, reading this review convinced me to stick with 'The Corporation' as my corporate-themed documentary of choice. I bet Rev. Billy didn't get to go have tea with the corporate giant he was opposing.

"I bought my brother a dancing dashboard Jesus for Christmas this year, one of the dumbest gifts I have ever spent four dollars on, and my repugnant and wasteful consumerism was fucking worth it...I made my brother laugh his ass off. Mission accomplished Reverend Billy, how about I go out and buy you a jewel encrusted ladder so you can climb it and get over yourself?"

Um. Actually, this is probably exactly the kindof thing "Rev." Billy would have encouraged you to do. Buy small, silly gifts at locally-owend stores that will actually mean something to (i.e., make laugh) the people you're buying them for.

And in case anyone missed it, "Reverend" Billy is neither a real clergyman or a real person -- he's a character created by a New York actor named Bill Talen precisely for the purpose of spoofing the phony, over-the-top TV televangelists who materialized and commercialize relgion/Christmas.

TK,

they had one cinnamon-mint or something flavor that tasted like hippie ass, but I don't mind the mint flavors, and I find it to be a much better toothpaste than regular brands at making my teeth feel squeaky clean.

Now Listerine? I don't know how the fuck anyone does that to themselves more than once.

Posted by: Sean at March 24, 2008 12:44 PM

Hahahaha it's good to see a fellow Hudson Hawk fan. That movie is a classic DAMMIT. It gets better EVERY. TIME I see it.

"History, Tradition, Culture - are not concepts, these are trophies I keep in my den as paperweights!..."

roseyv:

You make some really good points (especially about lousy parenting), but actually, experience has shown that attacking the leadership of WalMart on camera has brought about significant change within that company in terms of better health care benefits, more scrutiny of managerial decisions on hiring and promotions, treatment of shift workers and some environmental issues. They're still not somewhere I would shop (they are still viciously anti-union), but they have reacted to the public concern raised by several documentaries and media stories that took a very harsh look at their top execs.

Ew, Twig, I'm with TK...I'm currently at the end of a tube of Tom's of Maine that my roommate bought and couldn't be happier about it :) It's apricot flavored. Gah. I was too lazy to buy a separate tube though, so I can't really complain.

If I am living outrageously beyond my means, racking up tens of thousands of credit card debt, and celebrating what is supposed to be the birth of a savior as if it were the scene in the Ten Commandments where they dance around the golden calf, that's not the fault of some billionaire corporate overlord. It's my fault, and nobody else's.

Very true.

BSlim: I can't think of another movie that's so gloriously aware of how stupid it is. I can't get enough. Tommy survives that fall in the limo and the ensuing explosion? And the only response is the most appropriate: "Yeah, that's probably what happened!" Fantastic.

twig: Listerine is one of man's greatest achievements. My word, how I jones for that burn. I oftentimes I wish I could swallow it.

Hey -- I like Tom's of Maine toothpaste! At least the spearmint flavor rocks, without all the crap in regular toothpaste.

Sean, I, too love the healing fire of Listerine. It's like a boozy mouth rinse.

But anyway, off-topic crap aside... this is the worst kind of message. It's sanctimonious, holier-than-thou crap that instead of trying to show people the problem, it treats them like the problem. Here's a hint: getting in peoples faces and badgering them is not going to endear them to your cause. There is nothing worse than this kind of self-righteous blather, which succeeds in nothing more than either preaching to the already converted, or alienating those who need help the most.

If I was braving the Christmas crowds, just because I desperately wanted to find something pretty to make my wife smile on Christmas morning and some jerk with a bullhorn showed up and started ranting at me... well, we'd have definitive evidence of whether or not you can fit a bullhorn up a man's ass.

Agreed, TK. The idea of reducing debt and focusing less on consumerism is an important one, but (as is the consensus) this is not the way to go about it. Unfortunately, us regular folk who aren't well-to-do documentary filmmakers and who simply want to make our loved ones happy and maintain some semblance of sanity and normalcy have a harder time casting off societal traditions and expectations, especially around Christmas. Eat me, Spurcock.

Spurcock. I'm kind of on the fence as to whether that's funny or not.

I can't believe the goodness of Tom's of Main toothpaste is even under debate. It is glorious toothpaste. I can't even read the rest of the review I am so hurt and confused.

I'd like to applaud TK's "getting in peoples faces and badgering them is not going to endear them to your cause". It usually takes the opposite effect that they're going for...

I had some Jovies show up at my place (while I was pulling into the driveway) asking if I had a minute - I politely gave them time to do their thing. I told them thanks, but no thanks. Then they tell me I'm headed for hell because I'm down with their particular way of thinking. So then I've gotta turn into an asshole and tell them to get the fuck off my driveway. I'm down with whatever the hell anyone chooses to believe - just don't try to bully it on me. 'Cause I likes to punch... and throw poop.

1. I've carefully considered it and hereby decree that yes, Spurcock is funny.

2. Toms of Maine - Lobstersurprise, if you enjoy minty-flavored poo, then by all means, brush away. We're not here to judge you.

3. Sadly, it appears that Spurlock and his ilk are more interested in the attention they receive than the message they deliver. It's really awful, because given how widely his work seems to be distributed, he has an opportunity to do something that's actually, you know... meaningful, instead of obvious, not to mention tacky and self-aggrandizing.

4. It's a bit unnerving that I read that Skittimus "likes to punch... and throw poop."... and thought to myself, "yeah, I can totally see that."

Okay, that dude does look a little like Joe Pesci, but he looks a whole lot more like the reanimated corpse of Sean Penn's dead brother after Paris Hilton found him wandering around and adopted him, showering him with peroxide and Mystic Tan and self righteous, uninformed opinion.

1. I've carefully considered it and hereby decree that yes, Spurcock is funny.

So it is written. Long live the Spurcock!

... and seriously, liking Listerine but not ToM? Seriously? It's like the difference between a sprightly jaunt through the mint-paved streets of Mintyfreshtown and gargling with gasoline-flavored napalm and then lighting a match.

The very foundations of my reality have been shaken.

I agree with Sarina's assessment of what that fella looks like, with an addendum. He does look like platinum-zombiehiltonized Chris Penn, along with just a touch of that idiot Sandler buddy who starred in grandma's boy. (Yeah, that movie doesn't get capitalized or italicized.)

I can put an end to the toothpaste & mouthwarsh debate right now...

I gargle with bleach. Period. Not only is everything clean as a goddamed whistle, but I have bragging rights on the whitest tongue in town.

Does it taste good? No. But that's why I always follow a good mouth-bleaching with a shot of Old Crow.

Twig, you are clearly not hardcore enough for Listerine. Take your weak-sauce, Suzie-Sensitive Tom's of Maine minty cat-shit toothpaste back to Wimpy-Town.

Also, not to stray even further off topic, but is Netflix down for everyone else? Because if I don't get to futz with my que soon, I will LOSE MY MOTHERFUCKING MIND!

I like both Tom's of Maine and Listerine. Now sit down with me, and we can all join hands together, for I...am the bringer of peace.

Ah! TK the site is down for me too and I need to bump shit to the top of my queue before it's too late!

If some asshole yelled in my face after spending my hard earned 4 bucks getting coffee I would gladly throw it all over him.

To be completely honest I am f**king sick and tired of people telling me what I should and should not eat, wear, or buy. I earned my money and I will spend it any way I please.

So if you see me with a Starbucks coffee and you don't like it, keep on keeping on. Because I don't give a shit.

Skittimus Maximus: Jovies told you you're going to hell? I don't know who was in your driveway but be scared, very scared. Jovies don't believe in hell.
Were they wearing....sweater vests?
Could they be....ZOMBIES?

Many years ago, I stood in line outside a cinema waiting to go in and see "The Last Temptation of Christ" while a guy with a bullhorn screamed at us that we were making Jesus weep for seeing this blasphemy. I can honestly attest to the fact that if I had found myself in the wrong queue and was actually lining up to see "27 Dresses", I would have stayed in the line just to show this guy he couldn't win (although I might have agreed with his definition of blasphemy at that point).

It's been down since last night. I stuck all my discs in the mail on Saturday, so I need for it to come back up before they mail me whatever the hell random stuff I have in the first few slots of my queue. What if we're hitting the part of the list where one day six months ago I had a serious hankering to watch foreign documentaries on meat processing? I mean, not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't need several of them arriving all on the same day.

Any toothpaste that is minty is fine with me. I draw the line at that nasty ass tropical, tangerine, vanilla mint, cherry paste.

And that guy is Joe Pesci from My Cousin Vinny only Vinny decided to bleach his hair.

Capitalism is like a shark it needs to keep going or it DIES.

So true BarbadoSlim, but 9 times out of 10 it could take a better route than it does. At least more people are realizing it these days. Still, I wouldn't mind outlawing Hummers and that Kyoto protocol needs to be ratified.

I don't feel that touched by this documentary as I'm already quite aware of the subject and act accordingly. The title What Would Jesus Buy? annoys me more than it makes me laugh.

How are people still religious when there is so much information easily available and out there? Do they really need that false comfort so badly and won't they actually think rationally? I resigned from church on my 18th birthday. It makes me happy that you can do it online these days and more and more people do it. eroakirkosta.fi if you happen to be Finnish, 105 560 people has used the site.

Heh, I feel like a bore for hopping on a preacher stool when the discussion is more about Spurcocks - well at least he is getting something across. Supersize me was the last nail in the coffin as far as fast food was concerned for me but I was never a fast food victim in the first place.

Sarina, Julie, I'm particularly fuckarooed, because the next couple of movies my wife chose and she's not gonna be around this week! So instead of having a week of Scotch and Action Movies (KAPOW!), I'm gonna be stuck with Scotch and Really Dry Documentaries About Cat Surgery And/Or Something Of Serious Historical Importance.

Damn you, Netflix.

DAAAAAAMMMMNNNN YOOOOOOOOUUUUU!!!

[shakes fist at sky]

Sarina, that's what happened to me. I wanted to bump The Mist to the top(suck it, I adore that novella), but at this rate I'm going to get stuck with Tombstone or Good Night and Good Luck. Not that I don't want to watch them, but I want something else.

:stomps foot:

Uh... the Sharper Image filed for bankruptcy.

Listerine is A+. I don't know if anyone has seen the show Intervention, but there was a "recovering" alcoholic who would drink Listerine by the bottle all day. The nasty coppery original flavor. Yummy in your tummy.

How are people still religious when there is so much information easily available and out there? Do they really need that false comfort so badly and won't they actually think rationally?

Bite me hard, straw man.

Personal responsibility! Personal responsibility!
He said it! I read it myself!

Come, Dustin. Come to the dark side. You don't know the power of the dark side.

Hey now, VisitingFinn, let's not be insulting here. We just got through with yelling at the neo-con meatwad in the round up, don't make me roll up my sleeves and get to work on you. Insulting people's religious beliefs? Despite my staunch Atheism, I must STRONGLY protest. Don't go down that road... it's rude and condescending, not to mention that it reeks of youthful ignorance. Just... don't.

Maybe this Reverend Billy was actually a double agent, working for the huge retailers in an effort to boost sagging sales. He reminds me of the nutjob minister at my old campus. Everyone called him 'Minister Masturbator' because he continually asked people if they masturbated, then announced that they were going to hell. That kind of thing makes a girl wish for Cthulu-themed vibrators.

I had a serious hankering to watch foreign documentaries on meat processing?

Ahhhh...German sitcoms

Am I the only person on this site full of godless pinko liberal commies who actually likes Reverend Billy? Not just his message, but how he puts it forth. I consider him and his ilk to be an entertaining form of anti-capitalist propaganda.

I mean, yeah, I get it, you covet a Wii and don't want no street preacher/performance artist telling you that you're evil for wanting to play virtual tennis. And when I'm honest with myself, the only real reason why I don't have one myself is a combination of the fact that I'm more broke than a fat man's easy chair. And I hear the comments that if everyone stopped going to the mall it would be a NATIONAL catastrophe. Malls would shut down. Whole cities would be swallowed into the earth! We'd forage the land looking for food, but we'd all starve because all we know how to do is order movies on demand and hire closet re-arrangers to find a corner to put our other pair of unused skis.

This is a good thing? Seriously? We're happy for the fact that no one knows how to do, or build anything anymore, and the only thing keeping our country afloat is that we can't stop fucking consuming? Sorry, yeah, a rant, but jeez. The annoying street preacher has a point.

And he's actually entertaining. Actually pay money for one of his events. It's good.

I saw him perform in lower Manhattan at the Spiegel Tent on 9/11 in 2006, the fifth anniversarry. That day was a day of rememberances for most new yorkers, and, just like the day of Yom Kippur which was to occur a few weeks later, it forced the audience to take stock of our lives. Sure, the performance was anti-war (what gathering of liberals in Manhattan on 9/11 wouldn't be?) but it made us examine how we got there.

He had a full band, a choir of annoying vegan hippies, and some of New York's most Quixotic of Liberal politicians all with him there that day. Malachy McCourt was there (Frank's younger brother, also a novelist). In a deep Irish brogue he sang "Johnny We Hardly Knew Ye". Jonathan Tasini was there (he ran against Hillary on the Democratic Primary in 2006 on an anti-war platform).

Yes, all of us there were annoying prius-driving vegan-farting, spin phish-dancing liberals. I dig that.

But Jeez, y'all say that the people who buy the Wiis and the mini bikes and the SUVS aren't at fault, but the providers are.

Well, let me tell you this: if no one bought these big ticket items, no one would sell them. Maybe the people who need to be reached are the ones who are thinking that Maxing out the Credit cards once a year is a good way to live?

If no one went to Disney Land, the place would shut down.

Brian: Ha!

Sorry TK (and others)

I'm actually asking more than stating, it's one of these things I'm always too polite to ask Americans and other religious people in real life. Since this is the most free spoken site with an audience of Americans that I've stumbled on I decided to finally open my mouth. I almost deleted the question before I posted it. Sorry. It just genuinely puzzles me. Live and let live is still what I go by in terms of religion.

Withnail, I don't necessarily disagree. But I think that it's one thing to try to show people the error of their ways, and it's another entirely to storm into their lives (during Christmas, no less) with a bullhorn demanding an immediate change, and then getting pissed when they ignore you. And if that's going to be your tactic, then you need to be prepared for some backlash. That's why I think the message is being lost in the delivery.

"Cthulu-themed vibrators."

OMG, I think I just found *the* Christmas present for my girlfriend....

VisitingFinn, I certainly can't presume to speak for everyone (or even anyone, really) but sometimes religion isn't about dogma, or adhering to some ancient text or standing in a specific building at a certain time and reciting empty words by rote. Sometimes it's just about faith in something bigger than yourself, about digging deeper than all the fear and pain and misery in this world and foolishly hoping for something brighter or more meaningful.

That could easily be wrong, though. What do I know? I'm a faithless bitch who hates everyone.

A lot of the time I feel that because I am an athiests, I'm considered to be less of a person who submitted to that higher authority who doesn't exist. (MY BELIEF!)

Seriously, I can't wait for a Athiest president who has to be sworn into office on Darwin's "On The Origin of Species"

Tacopus Gods I see this site is going pagan now (and not the reserve outfielder on the Mets. Where did the Taco ones come from?

I use Tom's of Maine, thankyouverymuch, because every other toothpaste tastes like I am brushing my mouth with sugar. I eat enough sugary shit as it is. Girl wants a clean mouth.

While I doubt the castle would come crashing down if we weren't all out buying cheap, foreign-made junk at an alarming rate during the holidays, we have built our whole economy one some pretty wet sand. This country is a nation of consumers, not producers, and we have a hefty trade deficit to prove it.

Interestingly, there is a book by a guy called Brad Hirschfield (I think he's a rabbi) called "Finding Faith Without Fanaticism" and in interviews promiting this book, the author makes a pretty strong case for his belief that atheists are deeply spiritual people who should not be considered Godless just because they reject traditional notions of God.

Maybe I missed the memo, but if you're an athiest I thought the entire point was that you are 'godless'. Not believing in higher beings, omnipotent forces, superstitions, occult powers, religions, transubstantiations, etc etc etc.

So if you're a deeply spiritual person, you can't be an athiest, because they don't believe in the spirit. You can be a multitude of other words that mean "I believe in something metaphysical in some iteration" but you can't, by definition, be an athiest.

twig, it has been my experience that a good number of people consider themselves atheist, but when they actually talk about their beliefs it would seem they're really agnostic.

Right on Dustin and the other eloquents who agree. Something is seriously wrong with our country, and our mindsets. The problem is, most people don't see ways that they can change. Merely lambasting people for choices they make won't help them see the necessity of personal conversion (no pun intended) to affect national change. And Dustin, I don't think it's inherently conservative to ask people to accept responsibility for their actions. After working for environmental NPOs, you see the hypocrisy of people working to change the system, without changing themselves. There are people who care, and people who don't. Changing our society necessitates top down and bottom up reform. I see Reverend Billy's point, and even agree with it. But if that fucknut ever told me to buy my coffee elsewhere I'd tell him he's killing my freedom to choose and go America all over his ass.

[Charlie]I'm gonna rule this world. I'm gonna kick some ass. I'm gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. I'm gonna :deep voice: flyyyy like an eeeaaagle![/Charlie]

I think the fucknut's point is that the majority of Americans (or at least the vast minority of them) don't know that they have a choice of where to buy their coffee. They don't even know the option exists.

They aren't aware that it doesn't have to be this way.

Twig: I can't help you there, I just heard the interview on the radio and thought it was an interesting comment, but I do think Sarina is right re agnostics who think they're atheists.

I had not heard of this documentary before reading this review. I agree that although faith expressed in consumerism is a fascinating topic to examine, it sounds like this is not the right movie to do it. That's a shame, because there are probably lots of good points to discuss.
The idea that someone would accost and pester average shoppers reminds me of when I worked in a fast food restaurant as a teenager. I was working one Sunday afternoon, and we had a large after-church crowd. This guy finished his lunch, then started preaching to everyone about how sinful it was to be doing business on Sunday. I thought his hypocrisy was colossal. He left after his rant, so no one had to confront him. We just kind of shrugged, and went back to work.

Many documentaries like this one are more about pizazz and showmanship that hard facts.

Visiting Finn. Well, first of all, not all Americans are religious. You seem to have an impression that all Americans are clutching bibles and hunting scientists on weekends. Second, like it has been said before, religion is much less about hard facts and more about having something to believe in. It's about being part of something bigger than yourself. That is a basic human need. We are pack animals.

I am a biology major and I've often struggled with ideas of religion and the existence of God. Do I struggle with the "fact" the world was created in seven days. No, of course not. Do I look at how beautiful the universe is, how amazing and complex even the simplest biological system is and wonder if something bigger is tying it all together, yes I do. To you the idea of a safety net may seem ridiculous but to many people the idea that their existence is random is equally daunting. Be careful how you phrase your questions. You may not have meant to be insensitive but basically you asked how anyone could be so stupid as to be religious. Few people are going to sit down and politely explain to you how they can be that stupid ...

Its called 'political theater' people. Yes, Rev. Billy is over the top, he is performing as well as delivering a message. To treat this as if he should just quietly hand out memos or host a meek little blog wouldn't get the message out in his over-the-top way. You don't have to like it, but you should take his medium into consideration.

And we are all complicit in the problem. Not just corporate execs. That is naive and not accepting responsibility.

"Finding Faith Without Fanaticism"

Thanks Paddy, I've been looking for something to read. This sounds very interesting.

Visiting Finn. Well, first of all, not all Americans are religious. You seem to have an impression that all Americans are clutching bibles and hunting scientists on weekends.

No I do not have that impression, why should I? The United States might very well be the most diverse nation in the world.

Thank you for answering me though LittleDead (existence or wormfood for me), and Sarina as well.

The believing in something that nothing tangible nor proved supports just escapes me.

More than that, I am in a way I'm never going to push on anyone anti-religion as I feel too many of the world's worst atrocities have been made in the name of religions.

VisitingFinn, while there have certainly been atrocities committed under the guise of religious belief throughout history, I think you'd find upon closer examination that the majority of said acts were in fact merely committed to further the pursuit of plain old power or wealth, be it by a person, organisation, church or government. While there have always been and always will be zealots who are unwilling or unable to see reason and who commit crimes in the name of their fundamentalist psychoses, religion is generally just a scapegoat used to pretty up the selfish pursuits of greedy people who lack the conviction to say they did something just because they felt like it and didn't give two shits about the repercussions. When there is no reasonable explanation for what an inhuman bastard you are, blame it on your god. It's an easy out. It doesn't necessarily mean that what you did actually had anything to do with faith.

Yes, of course that's true and you are right. I'd just rather see the alibi removed.

On the other hand missionaries have done a lot of good as well. It's more of a John Lennon in Imagine idea I support. No religions etc. i.e. nothing to fight about that I like.

I think LittleDead's input cleared it up a bit for me. I'm guessing many of you have a stronger need for communitarism (not sure about the term, haven't studied psychology) than most people I know. It's a reflection of you're society, it doesn't actually surprise me but thank you for taking my thoughts further.

I think I heard (or didn't) the term communitarism in some class about cultural differences and it means a need to be a part of something. The U.S. is a more masculine society than mine etc. I think one the authority figures in this field was Gert Hoefstede. Anyway, thank you for discussing.

While I may agree that the preaching and sermonizing is ultimately ineffective, to say that he's targeting the wrong people is absurd. The general American population shouldn't be regarded as mindless sheep waiting to be shepherded to the next thing by corporate America, and therefore, only corporate America can only provide a solution. You really do have to start where the money flows from the populace into the coffers of corporate America, the spending public.

He's not going after the wrong target, he's just using the wrong tactic and an insulting message.

As a non-church-going, unconfirmed, church-tax-paying Finnish-ish fence-sitter I'd like comment generally on VisitingFinn's remarks.

I think that portraying the fact that so many Finns have officially left the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran church as a triumph of Reason over the "false comfort" of religion is a distortion of a statistic that has little to do with actual religious conviction or lack thereof, and more to do with the fact that the ol' Ev-Lut collects church tax from registered members.

I reckon that most of the newly-non-denominational are quite happy to take advantage of days off work for religious holidays, and I think most Finns quite happily go through confirmation less for religious reasons and more for the traditional presents and cash.

Finland is hardly a hotbed of rampant atheism; it's pretty secular compared to say, Ireland, but I think this has less to do with conviction and more to do with general apathy. Non-practising Christians have church weddings and baptise their kids, and hardcore atheists shelter their children from any Christianity-themed content at school, as they are constitutionally entitled to do.

If anyone is interested in the history of combining science, critical thought, politics, social issues and philosophy with religious practice, belief and faith, I recommend Enlightenment: Britain and the creation of the modern World by Roy Porter (2000).

i'm still laughing at "wienie slurper" and "aromatherapy oils and bath salts". it's so true, the crap that we buy.

nothing says "i didn't know what the eff to buy you/i couldn't be arsed" like an arrangement of toiletries.

You can't criticize people for not having personal responsibility and at the same time insult the vegan hippie cooking tofu and using Toms of Maine.

I love Tom's of Maine!

Personally, I like to make fireballs with my Listerine. The pain, it is good.

One of the problems I have with the in-your-face school of "don't do that!!!" is that it's a very either/or propostion. Small children - you tell them to do something, and 8 or so times out of 10, they'll say "okay". Adults, they want to know why. Why should they give up their way of life?

Why , indeed. We've been taught since the end of the second world war that consumerism is good. We spent, the economy grew, and everything was hunky-dory. All of a sudden, spending is bad, and it's honestly a bit of a culture shock for most people - buying stuff is a tradition, a habit, a cultural mandate. How much are we told, even now, when we're up to our ears in useless goods and crippling debt, that we should spend more to help the economy?

It's going to take a little while for people to readjust, and maybe we won't, but our children will - just like I learned to be a shopper, while my mother, who lived through WWII, saved everything, "just in case".

All I know is that yelling at me doesn't work - make suggestions I can handle, and get busy indoctrinating the kids. (I'd offer up mine, but I don't have any.)

I should say, I'm quite the collector of useless things, but mine are mostly vintage and antiques. I have quite the thrift-store collection of '70s clothing.

Haven't watched the movie, it sounds terrible, but the review and comments were interesting to read--at least the things I could stomach.

It seems to me the only people that are ever truly upset about corporatism in Christmas are Atheists who seem to hate the idea that Christians have a holiday (I'm not Christian). It bothers me that fucking Christmas music is played nonstop from October though December, but that ain't Christmas. Although Christmas is a religious holiday to honor God, to people who aren't vested in the faith, it is a special day to be with family and friends and honor that. So I like to buy things for my family at a designated time of year? Big fucking deal. My choice. I think Valentine's Day is stupid so I don't participate. You think Christmas is stupid/corporate/whatever? Don't participate.

As much as I love reading this site, I cringe at the political commentary. It's the typical far-left view that ALL people are too stupid to make reasonable decisions and as such we must be protected from ourselves and the big bad corporations. So rather than being a moron dependent on corporations/credit, it's far better to what? Be a moron dependent on Big Daddy government and the endless source of your tax dollars?

Certainly the masses are asses, who don't save, budget or spend wisely; however, that's not my problem--at least not until this country goes entirely socialist (err, "progressive"), at which point all you people bitching about corporations stealing from you will soon find your government is a much bigger problem financially, than it already is.

It all boils down to PERSONAL responsibility, which is the real problem in this country. No one covets personal responsibility. Especially now, our government (both left and right) thrives on taking it away from us and we seem all to eager to vote it away (again, both left and right). Whether it is well-intentioned or not is moot. One day we'll democratically vote ourselves into socialism, and people will wish they had corporations to bitch about.

As much as I love reading this site, I cringe at the political commentary. It's the typical far-left view that ALL people are too stupid to make reasonable decisions and as such we must be protected from ourselves and the big bad corporations. So rather than being a moron dependent on corporations/credit, it's far better to what? Be a moron dependent on Big Daddy government and the endless source of your tax dollars?.

Did you read ANY of the comments? At no point did ANYONE preach that we should be dependent on the government, and at no point did ANYONE talk about tax dollars. I love how you assume that's all liberals complain about, and therefore immediately post a knee-jerk reaction without bothering to pay attention to any of the opinions posited. Way to go, genius.