A few weeks back, some good Canadian folks filming a documentary on romantic comedies asked me to participate in their fine project. I suspect that my inability to string two or more coherent sentences together out loud will ultimately result in a date with the cutting room floor, but the opportunity did give me a thought or two. The subject of the doc was about how romantic comedies have a tendency to create, in real life, expectations that most men are unable to meet. In Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, Chuck Klosterman, takes that notion a step further, blaming his inability to satisfy women on John Cusack, reasoning that Lloyd Dobler has set an example that neither he, nor any other man, can ever reasonably duplicate. He writes:
It appears that countless women born between the years of 1965 and 1978 are in love with John Cusack. I cannot fathom how he isn’t the number one box-office star in America, because every straight girl I know would sell her soul to share a milkshake with that motherfucker … But here’s the thing that these … women don’t seem to realize. They don’t love John Cusack. They love Lloyd Dobler. When they see Mr. Cusack, they are still seeing the optimistic, charmingly loquacious teenager he played in Say Anything.
And what these women also fail to understand, at least in my opinion, is that many of these lofty expectations are built around a myth that Lloyd Dobler and Diane Court — after the ding of the seat belt light, and after they safely landed in London — managed to stay together and live happily ever after, populating the world with ‘Lil Doblers and spending their golden years in a rocking chair sipping on Country Time Lemonade. Well, here’s a reality check, Captain Stupendously Obvious: Over half of all marriages end in divorce and, I suspect, that number is even higher when the two spouses are high-school sweethearts. Of course, it’s no secret that marriages don’t always last, but even when they do, arguments and lifestyle compromises are inevitable. If Lloyd Dobler and Diane Court were still together today (they are not, I conjecture), you can bet your ass that Lloyd is selling or processing something sold or processed to take care of Lloyd, Jr. and provide Diane with the sort of comforts she was accustomed to when her father was bilking the nursing home. You don’t give up a house in the ‘burbs with a jukebox in it to live off the fat of the land and watch your husband toil away with a failed kickboxing career (“sport of the future?” Ha!), now do you? Not even for the freakin’ Ice Man.
So, I’m here to provide a public service to men everywhere by lowering those expectations, and — in the process — hopefully dispel any beliefs that your favorite romantic-comedy heroes and heroines always managed to stay together through thick and thin, through sickness and in health, and after the credits have rolled. What I intend to do is not just pull something out of my ass, but to look at the characters and — taking into account my assumptions about human nature — project what happened to these couples based upon their personality types and tendencies. And be warned: There are cinematic and real-life spoilers ahead, so if you’d like to keep your fond memories intact, you best skedaddle.
Westley and Buttercup, The Princess Bride: As it turns out, “true love” can only get you so far in the end. Buttercup, as you may recall, fell in love with a poor farm boy, but you could tell it was solely a physical attraction; after all, before carrying Buttercup through the fire swamp, Westley had never exchanged anything more than the occasional “as you wish” with her. She wanted him for his chiseled abs and his ability to fetch her pails of water. The truth is, Buttercup really didn’t know that much about Westley. Though his stint as the Dread Pirate Roberts made him more appealing on a purely thrill-of-the-adventure sexual level, it was yet another mask for his true personality: An undereducated, slightly brutish, peasant. Sure, sure — saving Buttercup from an Evil Prince bought him a few years of unconditional affection, years in which she tolerated Westley’s loutish ways (he never lifted the seat in the outhouse, for instance). But she always wanted to read or talk about her feelings, while all Westley wanted to do was appreciate her “perfect breasts” and swashbuckle. Moreover, as you may recall from their initial courtship, “nothing gave Buttercup as much pleasure as ordering Westley around,” and after the luster of their new relationship began to fade a little, Buttercup fell into old habits. Westley, however, stopped finding her incessant demands endearing; he just thought she was a nag (through the years, his “as you wish” grew more and more sarcastic).
Still, divorce being out of fashion during that era, Buttercup and Westley did remain married. Nevertheless, Westley — who missed sailing and swording with his pals — would often leave for weeks or months at a time, filling in for Inigo Montoya when his old friend wanted to take a vacation from being the current Dread Pirate Roberts. It was during one of those stints — on Westley’s 39th birthday — when he was finally killed. It was friendly fire, unfortunately; during a sword battle, he was gutted by the backswing of one of his compatriots. During his last few seconds of life, however, all his affection for Buttercup came flooding back, and his last words, naturally, were simply “as you …(*gurgle*).” Buttercup, forgetting the bickering and animosity of the last few years, lived as a widow for another three decades, during which time she wrote romance novels based upon their adventures.
Sam Baldwin and Annie Reed, Sleepless in Seattle: Anybody who has tried to survive a long-distance relationship knows exactly how Sam and Annie’s relationship ultimately ended. After they took the elevator down from the Empire State building, went back to a hotel, and put little Jonah to bed, Sam and Annie stayed awake all that night sipping wine and chatting. For Sam, it was the best night he’d had since his wife died; for Annie, it may have been the best night of her entire life. Feeling slightly guilty about enjoying himself as much as he had so soon after his wife had died, Sam slept on the pull-out bed that morning, not wanting to move the relationship too far too fast. Buoyed by their perfect night, however, Sam took the week off and traveled to Baltimore to spend more time with Annie (there, he met Annie’s best friend Becky and was not impressed). It was a great week, but Sam couldn’t quite shake the feeling that Annie wasn’t as perfect for him as his late wife; when he touched Annie, it wasn’t like “coming home” as he’d described to the radio-show host, it was more like spending the summer in the family beach house. Great, but not perfect. Nevertheless, after he returned to Seattle, Sam and Annie spoke on the phone every night for the first few weeks; they even made plans to see each other every other month, but neither was willing to sacrifice their careers and make the move cross country permanent. So, after a couple of years, the phone calls began to trail off, and the visits became less and less frequent. It was just too big a hassle. They did attempt to make one last ditch effort to salvage the relationship; Annie secured a temporarily one-month assignment in Seattle, where she gave a trial effort to living with Sam. Unfortunately, they never could quite recapture the magic they felt that first night in New York and, ultimately, they allowed the relationship to fizzle. The next year, Annie married her editor at the paper, while Sam remained single. He dates occasionally, but he’s not that interested in a long-term relationship. He and Annie, however, remain good friends.
Harry Burns and Sally Albright, When Harry Met Sally: Three months after the New Year’s eve in which Harry and Sally ultimately reunite at the end of When Harry Met Sally, they were married. The marriage wouldn’t last. Harry and Sally soon realized that the only time there was any real passion in their relationship was when they were bickering. Sadly, in an effort to keep the fire in their relationship stoked, their fights increased both in frequency and intensity. On two occasions, in fact, their arguments got so heated that they were arrested for disturbing the peace. Marie bailed them out both times. Because their squabbles often took place in public, or in front of guests, their humiliated friends eventually stopped inviting them out, which led to increased isolation, which, in turn, led to even more arguments. What’s more, the break-up sex began to suffer because the increasingly insecure Harry (whose self-esteem had taken quite a beating after scores of insulting arguments) began to suspect that Sally was faking her orgasms, and afterwards, he refused to hold her for more than the 30 seconds he’d allotted for cuddling. Finally, one morning, after four years of marriage, Harry declined to take Sally to the airport, and she recognized that the relationship had run its course. They had one last massive blowout, and then the best break-up sex of their lives. The next morning, however, Sally called the legal firm of “That’s Mine, This is Yours,” and they were divorced six months later. They never talked again.
Lloyd Dobler and Diane Court, Say Anything: The end of Lloyd and Diane’s relationship was a hard pill to swallow. There were no pens exchanged; their relationship just ended slowly, painfully, and irrevocably. Things were swell for a few months after they arrived in England, where she began studying at the university. But, Lloyd — who was unable to secure a work visa — spent all of his time following around Diane like a lost puppy dog, hanging around outside her classes and making himself a general nuisance during her study sessions. When her grades began to falter, she began to resent Lloyd. Moreover, because Lloyd had absolutely nothing going on in his life, he spent all his time overthinking their relationship— he grew increasingly paranoid that Diane would leave him for a classmate, and his passive-aggressive confrontations only made that notion all the more likely. Diane, for her part, began to realize that she had more in common with Spence, a PhD student in Literature with a charming British accent, than she did with Lloyd, who continued to insist that he had a future in kickboxing, a belief that increasingly annoyed Diane, who was busting her ass to make a real life for herself. After the year term ended, she decided to stay on and pursue a four-year degree in England, in part because of Spence and, in part, in the simple hope that Lloyd would take the hint and leave. Lloyd saw the writing on the wall and — not wanting to spend another year loitering around London — decided to go back to Seattle and help his sister take care of her kid. After a few months, he did the inevitable and followed in his parents’ footsteps, joining the army, where he was stationed at a base outside of Boulder, Colorado. There, he met someone more his speed, a girl named Sarah who smoked copious amounts of pot and played bass in an all grrrrl band. After fulfilling his commitment to the military, Lloyd opened a small kickboxing studio, where you can still find him today, teaching preteens the sport of the future. Diane ran through a series of men in college, had year-long lesbian fling in grad school, and ultimately wound up at the University of Chicago, where she’s a tenured professor who teaches feminist theory. She thinks about Lloyd often.
Edward Lewis and Vivian Ward, Pretty Woman: Well, this one is obvious. A wealthy businessman and a prostitute? Yeah, that’ll work. Granted, there’s not a single heterosexual guy under 25 who doesn’t want to “save” the prostitute or the stripper, but it’s all sexual fantasy. Everyone, except for Frank Marshall, understands that this relationship will never work in reality, and if you’ve seen Clerks, you know exactly why. Every guy that Vivian has ever slept with will weigh upon Edward, will screw with his head, and haunt his nightmares. Late at night, unable to fight off the demons in his mind, he’ll badger her about all the men she’s been with, he’ll ask her to tally them up, and she’ll initially refuse. Edward will persist, however, and just so she can get some sleep, she’ll tell him what he wants to hear. Turns out, he really didn’t want to hear it.
Over the first few weeks of their relationship, she’ll be forced to divulge more and more details. He’ll freak out; he’ll ask her to duplicate the more raunchy sex acts with him, thinking it will remove the bad taste from his mouth if he could mark his territory, so to speak (Edward, if anything, was a narcissist). It won’t; it will only make him feel worse — knowing she’s done those things with other men — and she’ll feel used and violated in the process. Her past will eat him alive — his business will suffer, he’ll lose sleep, and he’ll fly into disquisitive rages for little reason. He’ll blame his surliness, his moodiness, and his wild temper on little matters, inconsequential things like the way she holds her fork. He’ll find reasons, other than her past sex life, to start arguments, which will become more and more petty, until — eventually — they’ll fight over dinner plans. He’ll insist on a four-star restaurant with a strict dress code, while she’ll demand they stay in, watch old movies and eat pizza. Edward will lose his shit. “Typical,” he’ll say. “What’s that supposed to mean?” Vivian will respond. “What do you think it means?” Edward will ask sarcastically. “Go the hell,” she’ll yell. “Fuck you,” he’ll say, before throwing a wad of $100 bills on the bed. “Here,” he’ll say. “Go buy yourself a Pizza Hut, you whore.” She’ll cry. He’ll walk out. And the next day, the deed to the penthouse they’re staying in will arrive, signed over to Vivian. Underneath Edward’s transfer of ownership signature, it will read, “Services rendered.” And that, folks, will be the end of that.
Sam and Joon, Benny and Joon: The Buster-Keatonesque Sam and the mentally-ill Joon, after finally extricating themselves from Joon’s overprotective brother, Benny, move in together in an apartment in Ruthie’s building, which is where Benny and Joon ends. After the credits roll, the quirky couple actually does manage to have a very loving relationship for several months, though Joon grows slightly irritated with Sam’s refusal to talk about his feelings, as he chooses to act them out as a mime, instead. Nevertheless, the two eventually get engaged and decide to have a small rehearsal dinner in their apartment the day before the ceremony. However, the afternoon before the dinner, while Sam is preparing a feast of grilled-cheese sandwiches that he makes with an iron, Joon has a violent freak-out while watching a Fruit of the Loom commercial featuring a raisin (or “humiliated grape”). Sam quickly runs to her aid and attempts to console her; unfortunately, he leaves the iron on (on the rayon setting, of course) and accidentally sets fire to the apartment, a fire that quickly grows out of control after the flames lick Sam’s numerous cleaning products. Sam is able to save Joon, but sacrifices his own life to the fire in the process. After the fire and Sam’s tragic death, Joon is forced to be permanently institutionalized. For the rest of her life, she becomes completely inconsolable whenever someone flips past a silent film in the institution’s common room.
Melvin Udall and Carol Connelly As Good As It Gets: During the last few minutes of As Good As it Gets Melvin delivers his now ridiculously overused “You make me want to be a better man,” speech, which is enough to convince Carol to at least have coffee at the local bakery with him. Later that night, they go on a date and Melvin — incapable of speaking without tripping over his prickish tongue — buys her a new dress, and when Carol asks, “What’s this for?” he says that her waitress outfit makes her ass look big before trying to take it back. “I didn’t mean it that way,” he pleads. “I just mean, this dress makes your ass look smaller.” Carol, exasperated with yet another unintended slight, snaps, and that is final nail in the coffin of their relationship. They barely acknowledge one another for the next few months. However, very soon thereafter, Melvin keels over. Forced to go to another diner for meals, he chokes on a piece of steak. Instead of trying to help him, the wait staff — all of whom loathe Melvin — applauds when he finally buckles over and lets go of the ghost. However, in his will, he leaves his house to his gay roommate, Simon, and his substantial fortune, as well as a recently completed manuscript about his relationship with Carol, to her and her son, Spencer. A week later, she buys the diner she works at and calls it “Melvins.”
Loretta Castorini and Ronny Cammareri, Moonstruck: Fans of the film Moonstruck probably are aware that La Boheme plays central to the plotline, and anyone familiar with La Boheme should know how it ends for Loretta and Ronny. Yes, after Ronny proposes, Loretta accepts, and the entire family toasts “Alla famiglia,” the couple do manage to have a few passionate weeks together. Like any authentic Italian-American couple, they bicker lovingly all day long, get drunk on wine at night, and spend the evening in the throes of mad lovemaking. Unfortunately, Loretta — whose first husband was hit by a bus — was right all along in her assumptions that she was cursed. A few weeks before she and Ronny are set to marry, Ronny contracts drug-resistant tuberculosis. Because Ronny has so little time left to live, Loretta decides to go back on an earlier promise, and the two quickly get married at city hall. Two weeks later, like La Boheme’s Mimi, Ronny succumbs to his illness, and Loretta is left, once again, a widow. She decides never to marry again. Loretta now lives with her mother, who nags her daily to go out and find a new husband, a good man she doesn’t necessarily love, but whom she could live her remaining years with in contentment. She adopts stray cats, instead.
Jerry Maguire and Dorothy Boyd Jerry Maguire: When we last saw Jerry Maguire and Dorothy Boyd, Jerry had won over Dorothy with a simple “hello,” before rambling on about how much Dorothy completed him. Sadly, that whole speech was just another symptom of his fear-of-loneliness disease; after that big Monday night game, when he realized that Rod Tidwell was more interested in his talking to his wife than he was in hanging out with Jerry, he sought out Dorothy, figuring he had at least a 50/50 shot at convincing her to take him back. And, of course, she did because — after all — she wanted so badly for the relationship to work that she’d intuited a marriage proposal months before when there wasn’t one. Naturally, when football season started up again the next year, the cycle began anew. Now with six clients, Jerry found even more reasons to stay away from their marital home, though at the end of each football season — seeing six months of loneliness ahead of him — Jerry returned home with another impassioned speech. Dorothy bought it every goddamn time. She remained convinced that they were meant to be, while Jerry stayed in a relationship with a woman he didn’t love out of fear and because of his affection for Ray. The cycle thus continued for seven years, until a now teenage Ray wizened up and, though it hurt him to do so, pleaded with his mother not to take Jerry back. “It’s an emotionally abusive relationship, Mom,” he’d said. “And did you know that the human head weighs 8 pounds?”
Dorothy, knowing she couldn’t resist the wily charms of her husband, instead packed up Ray and their belongings and simply left, mailing divorce papers a year later, after Jerry refused to track her down. Jerry, crushed and depressed, spent several nights drinking at the local tavern before finally realizing, during a drunken conversation with one of his chiseled clients, that he’d been fighting his true self all his life. Jerry was gay, of course. Subconsciously, that’s why he’d gone into the sports agent profession, why he’d spent so much time in locker rooms with his clients, why he’d spent countless hours on his hair, and why he couldn’t commit to a woman. Once this became clear to Jerry, and after he’d become involved with a retired baseball player, he and Dorothy reconciled. Moreover, Ray and Jerry are still very close; in fact, Ray often babysits for Jerry’s two adopted children. Meanwhile, after two years of therapy, Dorothy worked through her abandonment issues and is now in a stable relationship with a gentle, though somewhat weak-willed, co-worker at a small accounting firm.
Andrew and Sam, Garden State: Here’s a glimpse into Andrew and Sam’s final break-up fight, a typically one-sided argument they have six-months after they kiss at the airport, and after Andrew decides to stay in Jersey. It occurs in the living room of Andrew’s house, where he still lives with his father; they are sitting next to one another on the couch listening to music. Sam: “Oh, for fuck’s sake, Andrew. Enough with the goddamn Shins already. Yes. Yes. The Shins are great. But, for criminy’s sake, if I hear ‘Caring is Creepy,’ one more time, I’m going to have one of my epileptic fits and stab you in the gut. Jesus, dude. This emo sensitive guy shtick is played. Take a cue from Frou Frou, man, and just ‘Let Go.’ Damn. I can’t believe I fell for you and your pathetic little existence. Sure, I found your constant contemplation kind of cute at first; I thought there was something deep and profound circling around in your head. Turns out, you were just counting the rocks up there, huh? Stop with the navel gazing, already. Can’t we just watch some fucking TV? And please not “Scrubs,” again. I’m so sick of that show. One night, man: Just one night, couldn’t we watch “Grey’s?” Cause at least then I could hear about someone else’s problems for a change instead of reliving your sad miserable life over and over every goddamn day of my life. Your mother has been dead for six months, dude. It’s time to move on. I cannot believe I fell for a guy that yelled into a quarry. That is, like, the oldest trick in the goddamn book. And when you said, “I don’t want to waste another moment of my life without you in it,” I didn’t think you meant it literally. C’mon, Andrew: Get a job, already. Look: I’m sorry you gave up your lucrative waiter slash acting career to stay in freakin’ Jersey. I’m sure you were just about to parlay that retarded quarterback gig into a movie stardom. But, you made your bed, and I’m getting the hell out of it. You need to go back to your ‘ellipsis,’ buddy. I gotta go. I’m sorry — I gotta hamster to bury or something. I’ll see you later. I’ll call you sometime. Maybe. Whatever. Have a nice life.”
Dustin Rowles is the publisher of Pajiba. He lives with his wife and son in Ithaca, New York. You may email him, or leave a comment below.
Dark. Darker. Pajiba. | | Pajiba Love 10/16/07
Comments
through the years, his "as you wish" grew more and more sarcastic
As soon as I understood you were talking shit about this movie, I wanted to hate you, but that line's too much fun to imagine.
Posted by: Todd at October 16, 2007 1:14 PM
[*Wesley working NY Times crossword; enter Buttercup stage left*]
B: [standing looking at kettle] Wesley . . . fetch me that kettle.
W: [looks at B; looks at kettle; looks back at B] Asshole witch.
B: What?
W: As you wish. As you wish. [*grumbling*] Fucking princesses.
Posted by: socalledonlycousins at October 16, 2007 1:14 PM
Ok, so I'm not very far into the article, but I do have to point out a pet peeve. I know the conventional statistic is that 50% of all marriages end in divorce, but that stat isn't really accurate. What they (the people who track this stuff) do is take all the marriages in a given year and all the divorces in a given year and they get their number from that. So, in a given year there are half as many divorces as there are marriages. It is not as if they are actually tracking specific marriages over time to see if they end in divorce.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not going on a rant in favor of marriage. I'm pretty anti the whole institution myself. However, that 50% statistic does drive me crazy...
Posted by: tamatha at October 16, 2007 1:31 PM
Wow. I don't know if I should be more depressed over the fact that John Cusack isn't actually Lloyd Dobler or that I was still deluding myself into thinking any of these films could manifest in real life. I'm thinking the latter. Either way, I think I'll go drown myself in a bathtub full of John Hughesian sentiment. That bastard.
Posted by: Aratweth at October 16, 2007 1:37 PM
Actually, Lloyd and Diane had a wonderful year in London. While Diane was in school, Lloyd traveled around Europe. Diane was able to join him on weekends, and during long breaks they traveled together. Lloyd visited France several times and became close friends with a local vinyard owner and his family. Diane and Lloyd stayed at the vinyard quite often, and Lloyd became very knowledgable about the wine making business. After spending their second year together in France (where Diane studied), they returned to the U.S. to marry. Diane continued her studies in Boston while Lloyd pursued a career in fire fighting. After 10 years in Boston, Diane was offered a position teaching at Stanford, and they moved to the West Coast. Lloyd was hired as an assistant Chief for the Los Gatos Fire Department. They still live in the upper class community of Los Gatos with their two children. Lloyd is looking forward to retirement and his kids going off to college in the next few years, and then he and Diane will move permanently to their Napa Valley vinyard where they will operate their small but critically acclaimed winery. Lloyd's character never faltered.
Posted by: MissNev at October 16, 2007 1:37 PM
OK Dustin, these were hilarious (especially Pretty Woman - that was brilliant) but I have to say that I think I'm intelligent enough to realize that movies are not real life. This whole argument smacks of the "Romance novels are horrible, because women are too stupid to realize that fictional characters don't exist in the real world." line of thinking.
I think that perhaps Mr. Klosterman's picking ladies from the left side of the Bell Curve.
Posted by: pinkcheese at October 16, 2007 1:40 PM
Dustin...if you weren't already a married and fertile man I'd kiss you for this one. Brilliant. Rather reminisant of a game played while drunk (isn't every game?) by friends of mine but still brilliant.
All of the above are reasons why 'Gone With the Wind' is the only romantic movie I've ever enjoyed. More and more I see that the choice to have the film be true to the book and have Rhett walk out was ballsy and not likely to happen in today's Hollywood.
I'd be more interested in watching these 'demise of romance' comedy's anyday.
Posted by: Ms. Parker at October 16, 2007 1:41 PM
OK, you've gone from a near naked Dita von Teese to a naked Steve-o in your PETA ads. Does PETA realize that seeing Steve-o's naked behind does nothing to motivate me to treat animals ethically? Geez, this is worse than Ann Coulter's ad a few months ago!
Posted by: rlr260 at October 16, 2007 1:47 PM
Well, this is rather depressing for the dreamers among us.
Therefore, I'm disregarding it wholesale, and going back to my pleasant, happily-ever-after land. If I want depressing relationships, I'll watch a LaBute film.
Posted by: TK at October 16, 2007 1:49 PM
In the book version of The Princess Bride the author actually discusses everything falling to shit for the characters. Which I found to be kind of awesome.
Also, you have made my bitter single day, bravo!
Posted by: cashewdani at October 16, 2007 1:53 PM
1. re Pretty Woman, sadly, this is the only realistic relationship in the above list. Witness Donald Trump and (insert name of latest young model wife here), Paul McCartney and Heather Mills, Rod Stewart and (the latest 20-ish blonde wife who looks just like all the others). I could go on and on. The marriages may not last, but millionaires do marry prostitutes all the time.
Posted by: PaddyDog at October 16, 2007 1:54 PM
aw, i'm sad now.
funny article though!
Posted by: susan at October 16, 2007 1:56 PM
One thread that runs through all of these is that, at least in these films (with maybe the exception of Princess Bride), the women fall for damaged and/or sensitive, emotive guys then get them home and want them to act like alpha males and be responsible, Cary Grant types. At least every woman I have ever dated who has the Lloyd Dobler fetish has turned out that way. Most of these women characters would too: "OK, the loser bit was great when I was saving your charming ass from [insert stereotypical, male emotional/relational/economical problem here]; but it is now time to step up to the responsibilty plate and quit being a ninny." Whew, I was just channeling my ex-wife there for a minute, sorry.
Posted by: pro_luv at October 16, 2007 2:00 PM
God, thank you. The thought of being in a relationship with Lloyd Dobler and his whiny clinginess makes me break out in hives. I never got the fascination with the character. Same goes for the tripe that is Braff in Garden State.
Posted by: Gudrun at October 16, 2007 2:04 PM
Wow. Pajiba's a little bitter over Lloyd Dobler, huh?
And while I might be fickle and foolish to fall for the likes of a fake character such as Lloyd Dobler, it's a far better and more realistic daydream to have, than the shallow, meaningless, superficial fantasies that hetero men have about (insert various supermodels/centerfolds/etc here) anyday. Unless it's about Angelina Jolie.
I like MissNev's ending better.
Posted by: Be Adequite! at October 16, 2007 2:05 PM
Wow. Pajiba's a little bitter over Lloyd Dobler, huh?
And while I might be fickle and foolish to fall for the likes of a fake character such as Lloyd Dobler, it's a far better and more realistic daydream to have, than the shallow, meaningless, superficial fantasies that hetero men have about (insert various supermodels/centerfolds/etc here) anyday. Unless it's about Angelina Jolie.
I like MissNev's ending better.
Posted by: Be Adequite! at October 16, 2007 2:06 PM
But pinkcheese, at the risk of pandering (and why not pander?), the women who frequent this site are hardly representative of all women who see rom-coms, just like most of the men here have the capacity to leave the pigpen to calmly and rationally discuss gender issues, unlike most jackass guys I know. Out in the world, 90% of people of both genders (and I'm being charitable because I feel good today) are fucking moronic twits. Some immature men and boys can be influenced by depictions of sadistic violence and aggressive sexual behavior; some women can get a rose-colored view of what life will be like with those same idiot guys who can barely be bothered to wipe themselves, much less act like a gallant romantic hero.
Posted by: socalledonlycousins at October 16, 2007 2:07 PM
Aw, cmon! Everything else is fair game, but did you have to mess with Lloyd and Diane? It's not as if there's much else left for us to keep faith in these days. I never got to go through that slow realization that Santa Clause didn't exist because the sudden death of my father and resultant financial constraints required us all to grow up a little sooner than was entirely necessary and now you've forced the same abrupt plunge into reality to the adult version of believing in Santa Clause (at least to my generation of indie-music loving heterosexual females). Curses on you Dustin!!
Posted by: PaddyDog at October 16, 2007 2:08 PM
yeah, or klosterman's an overrated misogynistic narcissist that can't get women to like him because he's an annoying ass.
kind of like all the male characters described above...
Posted by: vinniedelpino at October 16, 2007 2:10 PM
Gudrun- While I love Dobler, I'm with you on Braff and Garden State. That actor just gives me the creeps.
Posted by: Be Adequite! at October 16, 2007 2:12 PM
Using your projections, Dustin, while making a few minor adjustments, and I think it's safe to say that Grosse Point Blank is the sequel to Say Anything. And y'know what? I'm okay with that.
Posted by: David at October 16, 2007 2:22 PM
Wait a second...is Dustin hypothesizing that Westley and Buttercup do not remain madly in love?!?
Covers eyes and quickly scrolls down the page.
Phew...much better. For shame, Dustin, for shame! As a hopelessly single 20-something, I am clinging onto The Princess Bride like I used to cling onto my blanket. Take pity and do not rip the blanket out of my trembling hands!
Close call, but no harm done. Now excuse me while I get back to my dreams of Prince Charming. Because I KNOW he's out there somewhere, and I bet he looks a lot like my dear Westley...
Posted by: Zooey at October 16, 2007 2:23 PM
add me to the list of females who found Dobler to be more pathetically clingy, not dreamy. It's not the "overly-sensitive" part that bothers me (my sensitive, emotionally aware husband can attest to this) it's the "not recognizing boundaries" part.
Posted by: theresa at October 16, 2007 2:27 PM
maybe i'm just cynical, but i never thought for one second that harry and sally would live happily ever after after watching that movie. their relationship screams divorce.
i always felt the same thing about vivian and richard....except i care slightly less about where they end up, because i honestly hated Pretty Woman.
Posted by: citizen_cris at October 16, 2007 2:32 PM
My brother insisted for years that Lloyd and Diane were doomed, and he liked it. When I saw the movie again after college, I had to agree. Remember their reuniting?
LLOYD: Are you here because you need somebody or are you here because you need me?
[PAUSE -- DIANE SAYS NOTHING]
LLOYD: Never mind. It doesn't matter.
DIANE: I need you.
She didn't answer his question easily because she didn't know the answer. Instead, after Lloyd breaks the silence with his admission that he didn't care either way, she spat out the expected answer. It felt like they both knew she was lying and both decided to pretend it was true because they wanted it to be true.
They might work it out, but moments like that hint strongly at a rough future.
Posted by: Soulless Merchant of Fear at October 16, 2007 2:44 PM
The truth is, I'm a complete whore for romantic comedies. I ADORE them. For years I didn't enjoy any movies that weren't romances (or, alternatively, straight-up comedies). And yet, I've never cared for sloppily sentimental guys. My current boyfriend is my favorite person, my best friend. We've been together for a year now, and I still love him more every day. He forgot ... my birthday. He didn't notice Valentine's Day. His idea of a grand romantic gesture is saying "I love you" instead of waiting for me to say it first. As much as I like watching and "believing in" couples like Lloyd and Diane, Westley and Buttercup, Edward and Vivian, etc., it hasn't led me to demand anything unreasonable from my guy. I just appreciate that he's supportive, funny, and caring. I guess my point is - you're not helping by destroying those fantasies. I was already quite satisfied with my reality.
Posted by: Claire at October 16, 2007 2:45 PM
Garden State: Sam farts/gains ten pounds/has period. Andrew is overwhelmed by the fact that she is a mere mortal and dumps her immediately.
I'd apply this to Say Anything, as well.
Posted by: Samantha T at October 16, 2007 2:50 PM
All I have to say is this:
There are guys in real life who act like guys in rom-coms.
We call them "stalkers."
Seriously, I once dated a guy who used romantic comedies as some sort of map for life. He turned out to be the single most irritating, clingy, codependent person I ever met.
And in real life Diane didn't give Lloyd a pen. She kneed him in the crotch. And she turned the lawn sprinklers on him when he turned up at 1:00am with that boombox.
For reals, y'all.
Posted by: PaleoLithchick at October 16, 2007 2:53 PM
Some heartless motherfuckers around here.
It's fiction. Of COURSE guys aren't like Lloyd and girls aren't like Buttercup. But the point is, every now and then it's fun to pretend like they are.
Posted by: TK at October 16, 2007 3:03 PM
dustin, you are indeed a heartless bastard, but i love you
Posted by: thebaxterette at October 16, 2007 3:15 PM
I mostly hate "romantic comedies" because they're usually neither one. I've always thought they're about as realistic as cartoons. And anything written by an Ephron is particularly egregious to me.
I do look forward to a follow-up on how porn creates in men unrealistic expectations of women and/or sex. Not gonna hold my breath on that one, though. Women are stupid for having their silly romantic fantasies, but men are clear-eyed realists as they jerk it to the myriad images porn and near porn have implanted in their brains. Right...
And I gotta disagree about Steve-O's ass. It's not as bad as I imagined (I have never seen that idiotic show he's from or the movies) and I'd rather look at it than any part of Ann Coulter.
Posted by: LL at October 16, 2007 3:20 PM
Nice work, Dustin. Can't wait to share this one with my husband and brother-in-law. I love rom-coms but am also a realist and love it when movies don't have a rosy ending. I think your take on most of these is spot on, though I'd venture to say that not all of them would necessarily end in divorce (or death, as in Westley's case).
I personally think Harry & Sally would have stuck it out, they already knew the worst about each other and were willing to deal with it or they wouldn't have gotten married in the first place. Which, from my seven years married perspective, is a lot of what marriage is about. Plus, I think they both just enjoyed the acrimony.
Posted by: prairiegirl at October 16, 2007 3:37 PM
It's GUYS who idolize Lloyd as a romantic role model--more than women do!
There are guys in real life who act like guys in rom-coms.
We call them "stalkers."
Fuckin'-A right.
I actually like John Cusack, but NOT as Lloyd Dobler--that character is toxic.
But then, I'm a person who detests romance movies, with very few exceptions (The Princess Bride being one of those).
Posted by: Jerce at October 16, 2007 3:41 PM
I love romantic comedies, I don't care. I've been with my boyfriend for seven years. He's the smartest and potentially the least romantic person I've ever known. He generally refuses to watch them with me, but he doesn't make fun of me. I just love them. I love how the good rom coms make me feel all giddy and make me smile. It's nice to be reminded of what falling in love feels like. I love my boyfriend (my fiance, actually, since we're getting married next year) more than ever, and my devotion to romantic comedies has never changed my expectations. I mean, the damn movies aren't real...anyone not an idiot knows that. So I'm not crazy about this review--it feels bitter and unwarranted. What kind of guy would date a girl who wants him to be John Cusack anyway?
Posted by: Jen at October 16, 2007 3:55 PM
Right on for pretty woman there is no way that could have lasted.
I would like to think that harry and Sally are still together bickering and arguing over everything and anything but they will never divorce each other, they are the best of friends and ultimately you never divorce or leave your bestfriend and in the end that is what marriage is all about but he always wonder if she is faking it in bed!
Posted by: NDR at October 16, 2007 4:05 PM
thank you, just thank you,
romantic comedies destroyed my life, now I just wanna die 90% of the time, really really badly.
Posted by: rio at October 16, 2007 4:08 PM
Yeah, I can't even get through this entry. It's breaking my heart. Actually, it's reminding me that I DO have a heart -- be it an idealistic, Romantic one. I'll take it over your sour conjectures any day.
I still love you, though.
Posted by: Sarah at October 16, 2007 4:09 PM
Agreed that Harry and Sally could've stuck it out. Not a huge romcom fan, but that's the genre at its best.
Posted by: Samantha T at October 16, 2007 4:11 PM
First comment ever. Reader for over a year.
This was a fantatic read. Having just gotten married last Saturday this all seems perfectly tragic. Like many readers here, I'm not much of a fan of romantic comedies. And the ones I do like are quirky (read: Princess Bride and Benny and Joon)
In support of the Princess Bride as a romantic comedy, the book (my favorite of all time) actually ends like this:
"From behind them suddenly, closer than they imagined, they could hear the roar of Humperdinck: 'Stop them! Cut them off!' They were, admittedly, startled, but there was no reason for worry: they were on the fastest horses in the kingdom, and the lead was already theirs.
However, this was befor Inigo's wound reopened; and Westley relapsed again; and Fezzik took the wrong turn; and Buttercup;s horse threw a shoe. And the night behind them was filled with the crescendoing sound of pursuit"
It still retians their ability to have a happy ending, but at least admits that "happily ever after" isn't always the end.
Posted by: JustM0 at October 16, 2007 4:18 PM
There are, of course, many more than belong in this piece, Dustin (you bastard! how dare you piss on "sleepless?"). I'm a sucker for this genre and most definitely a stalker. Damn, Paleo, you nailed my secret! I mean, really, women fall for the "you complete me" crapola, but get 'em home, and it's all "take out the garbage, 'cause you're a friggin' moron" and "Don't come near me with that thing. I don't need to be completed THAT way!"
No wonder I'm a stalker.
Posted by: RomComDevotee at October 16, 2007 4:20 PM
I don't remember where I read this, but someone once said that women's options were either Ferris Bueller or Lloyd Dobler. Really? They both suck. Ferris is the type of guy who you describe to your mom and sister and best friends as "loving you in his way" - "his way" meaning being charming and fun but also caddish and untrustworthy. Lloyd is the guy you run to when you find out about Ferris' other girlfriends, and for a while his sweetness and devotion is like a balm. But then it stops soothing and starts to itch, and you hate how he says "I love you" ALL the TIME so you're mean to him just because you can be. You hated Ferris for being a dick and yourself for putting up with it, but being with Lloyd hurts more because you hate yourself for turning into Ferris.
Anyway. It's sort of hard to say, though, isn't it, how these things will turn out. I mean, watching a movie is like the first stage of a relationship, where everything *is* rosy and everything the other person does is great. When you're in that golden-glowy bit, you don't predict it'll end. You want to believe that these characters are in love and will be together forever. Maybe they will and maybe they won't. They have just as much chance as any other couple because everyone is stupid and has issues, and obviously some people manage to make it through it.
Posted by: Geetch at October 16, 2007 4:21 PM
*sigh* when I was eleven I used to wish my life was a romcom and some nameless guy (who looked like Antonio Banderas or Taylor Hanson) and I could "meet cute".
Sadly, I realized that the one was waaaay too old for me and the other was probably a woman. So, I put away childish things and moved on to the Johnny Depp oeuvre. (Benny and Joon notwithstanding)
Posted by: Scarlett at October 16, 2007 4:35 PM
I still like to think that it's Jeremy Irons and Christian Bale I like, as opposed to Humbert Humbert and Patrick Bateman.
Also: "Go buy yourself a Pizza Hut, you whore."
I laughed. Hard.
Posted by: Lola at October 16, 2007 4:38 PM
I don't watch rom-coms or chick flicks as a general rule... but I'd still like to believe in "wuv.... twoo wuv"
This was a great read, thanks for the afternoon diversion!
Posted by: nancy at October 16, 2007 4:40 PM
all this made me want to do is rent when harry met sally tonight.
though to be honest, there was a period during my sophomore year of college where i and my two best girl friends all got horribly dumped and watched that movie way, way, way too many times while getting drunk on cheap wine.
ah, memories.
Posted by: breonne at October 16, 2007 4:55 PM
Ofercrissake - it's just funny to be cynical about Romcoms. They are not some deepthinking, statement about humanity. Just dumbshit stories about dreamy unreal people. We all KNOW none of them stay together after the movie is over. Jeesh - of course not. The only unbelievable movie couple that would, could and do actually make it to the end is Harold and Maude.
Posted by: GinKirk at October 16, 2007 5:01 PM
From Moonstruck: "Loretta, I love you. Not like they told you love is, and I didn't know this either, but love don't make things nice - it ruins everything. It breaks your heart. It makes things a mess. We aren't here to make things perfect. The snowflakes are perfect. The stars are perfect. Not us. Not us! We are here to ruin ourselves and to break our hearts and love the wrong people and *die*. The storybooks are *bullshit*. Now I want you to come upstairs with me and *get* in my bed!"
Not exactly a load of bullshit in my opinion. And say what you want about Nic Cage, the above scene never fails to make me swoon and want to head straight upstairs to his bed!!!
Posted by: Be Adequite! at October 16, 2007 5:03 PM
O.k. Very amusing. But...
The *ding* of the seat-belt sign rang. In the movie-world per Lloyd's dialogue, it was established that this meant it would all work out. It's one of the best final notes to a movie ever, and I don't care what you say. They lived happily ever after. They had a chemistry that transcended their differences, and Lloyd's being there for her when she lost the only person she could "say anything" to makes him eternally more appealing than some British grad student. Plus, Diane was brilliant. She was going to make more than enough money for them, and Lloyd would make the best stay-at-home-dad in the history of stay-at-home-dads. And he can still run his kickboxing studio in the afternoon.
As for The Princess Bride, didn't they say "happily ever after?"
And didn't Harry and Sally talk about their wedding happily years after the fact?
Seriously, these are all very funny. And I'm so with you on As Good As It Gets. What a crock of a love story.
By the way, I'm not John Cusack, but I AM Lloyd Dobler. I'm still waiting for my Diane Court.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 16, 2007 5:03 PM
In defense of Lloyd Dobler...
Wow, having read some of the vitriol above, I must jump to Lloyd's defense.
First, while I am proud to compare myself to Lloyd, I am no stalker.
Yes, Lloyd has the starry eyes of a nineteen-year-old. There is naivete there and certainly lack of direction. There is admittedly too much dependence on his relationship with Diane.
However, those flaws will fade with maturity. Isn't it admirable that at that age "[he] knows that [he doesn't] know?" Isn't it impressive that he doesn't just fall for Diane's "game show hostess" body but also her ideas? He is completely enthralled by her valedictory speech and her relationship with her father. And what kind of substance does it take to receive that sort of verbal lambasting from Diane's father and turn the other cheek for her sake? Isn't he a great brother and a great uncle? Doesn't he have appealing eccentricities like enjoyment of pretzels and appreciation for Joe Satriani? Isn't it a good thing that he attempts a Socratic level of self-awareness with monologues into tape recorders? Isn't he wise for rejecting the idiocy of the guys at the Gas 'n' Zip? Isn't he a great friend to Corey by protecting her from Joe? Is the persistence of holding up the boom box the work of a stalker or a guy who is in love? Do you ladies who hate Lloyd not want us to ever try to win you back if it was a relationship worth having? Don't you think the letter he wrote her is wonderful?
Lloyd Dobler has character, and his adoration is deserved.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 16, 2007 5:18 PM
hmmm.
I guess I married Lloyd.
He's sensitive, way more in touch with his emotions (and mine) than I am, and yet, still kicks much ass. See, it's all about balance.
I dig the lovey dovey stuff b/c it's not something I necessarily grew up with, but I also love the fact that he's not a pushover. I especially heart the fact that I've seen him demolish punks in the ring, and then win them over with a smile and some kind words. Takes some of the sting out of the punch, I guess, but it's crazy the way that man makes friends.
And just so ya'll know, I looked LONG and HARD for an actor to do the "wuv twoo wuv" at our wedding, but alas, it was not meant to be.
Posted by: Stella at October 16, 2007 5:21 PM
Very true, socalled, but I try not to think about that too much, or I get seriously depressed. And since I can't drown my sorrows in copious amounts of alcohol, I just end up dwelling on all the frustrating stupidity in the world, and sleeping like crap.
Posted by: pinkcheese at October 16, 2007 5:40 PM
In Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, Chuck Klosterman, takes that notion a step further, blaming his inability to satisfy women on John Cusack, reasoning that Lloyd Dobler has set an example that neither he, nor any other man, can ever reasonably duplicate.
I'm sorry, but any man who is actually using this as an excuse for his relationship troubles is kind of pathetic. Sure, some women have unrealistic expectations. But none of us with half a brain actually expects to find a rom com leading man and wouldn't take one if he showed up on our doorsteps anyway, because he'd drive us batshit insane within a week or two.
Funny post, though. When can we expect the one about how every other kind of movie warps men's expectations of women?
Posted by: TT at October 16, 2007 6:02 PM
Harold and Maude can kiss my cynical-yet-naive-hoping-for-true-love ass. I hated that overrated piece of crap.
Posted by: Be Adequite! at October 16, 2007 6:04 PM
Damn skippy, TT.
Posted by: Stella at October 16, 2007 6:15 PM
Thank you for sparing Jake Ryan. It was a kind gesture.
Posted by: Agent Bedhead at October 16, 2007 6:24 PM
And also for leaving out Bender and Claire from Breakfast Club...
Posted by: Be Adequite! at October 16, 2007 6:25 PM
First off - Gudrun? Have you read Women in Love? I never got over how strange that name was whilst reading that book.
Secondly, I've always had a soft spot for John Cusack's Rob Gordon from High Fidelity. And by soft spot I mean that character is one of my biggest fictional character crushes. I don't want to know what that says about me.
Lloyd just makes me kind of cringy, though I still said 'awww' when they reunited. And I loved this article - it cracked me up.
Posted by: Ursula at October 16, 2007 6:26 PM
brilliant.
Posted by: heather at October 16, 2007 6:28 PM
The thing about Princess Bride... it is based on a satire, and that book is hilarious. Westley is actually self-educated and Buttercup is a complete idiot. Westley is more or less in love with her because she happened to be one of the most beautiful women in the world (and became the most beautiful after a great narration of the downfall of all the women before her in the rankings). He actually educates himself for her and builds up his body for her pleasure (heeheehee). What woman's ego wouldn't love that? Anyway, I could definitely see the break up of their relationship as Dustin described. After all, every one loses their beauty eventually and Buttercup will always be an idiot.
Posted by: Nanook at October 16, 2007 7:06 PM
Imagining past the credits of rom-coms was one of my favorite pastimes in the years before we got cable and I grew up. The most commonly revisited movie was Good Will Hunting, which I was hoping to see on this list. Depending on my mood, Will either arrives in California, miraculously locates Skylar (most likely using the GPS chip he surgically implanted in her shoulder while she was sleeping), and wins her back with a dozen roses and some partial nudity. Alternately, Will shows up with the roses and sans shirt to find the guy from the bar fucking Skylar's brains out.
I love this list, and I understand that for the most part you mean these movies no disrespect by suggesting that the happily-ever-after involved more therapy than cuddling. Although I have some sentimental fondness for Garden State, I have to admit that the ending seemed tacked on and incongruous with the rest of the film.
Posted by: antoinette jeanine at October 16, 2007 7:24 PM
"A now teenage Ray wizened up"... Ray's shrinking somehow? ITYM "wised up".
Loved your take on Lloyd and Diane. I suspect, though, your take on Jerry Maguire was strongly influenced by your views on Tom Cruise, yes?
Posted by: rocky at October 16, 2007 7:35 PM
Ursula - it is a strange name, and it's not mine, really. Just an internet pseudonym to set myself apart from those who share the same (real) first name as me. I haven't read Women in Love, but D.H. Lawrence has been on my to-do literature list for awhile. I should give it a go!
Posted by: Gudrun at October 16, 2007 8:05 PM
"Over half of all marriages end in divorce and, I suspect, that number is even higher when the two spouses are high-school sweethearts."
Whaddya mean my high school sweetheart and I won't stay married? Way to be a buzzkill, Pajiba. We're gonna b 2-getha 4-eva, so there.
Posted by: Ariel at October 16, 2007 8:05 PM
This is one of my favorite Pajiba posts! I am a hopeless realist, and I love getting sucked int romances, but the minute the credits roll, I think, "has anyone seen what Carey Elwes looks like now?" I don't know how Buttercup would feel about the beer gut years...
And yes, a courtship based on bickering ends with a relationship of fighting, and Dave Chappelle said it best: a businessman's night with a prostitute can only end with "you've got to get the #^@& out of here."
Posted by: Noelle at October 16, 2007 8:15 PM
I've never seen Say Anything.
Posted by: lunabelle at October 16, 2007 9:17 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but I became so incensed upon reading this that I had to immediately comment:
"Well, here's a reality check, Captain Stupendously Obvious: Over half of all marriages end in divorce"
Not true! In reality, between 2-8% of marriages end in divorce. If you don't believe me, Google "Divorce fifty percent"
Posted by: Renee at October 16, 2007 9:32 PM
Bitter much?
Posted by: Skeggjold at October 16, 2007 9:51 PM
This is why I stay away from romances that don't end with the end of the romance firmly established. Say what you want about Edward Scissorhands on the third date; I think realizing that the only perfect romance is one that ends at its climax is healthy.
Posted by: Ellipsis at October 16, 2007 9:54 PM
my god but Nicholas Cage was beautiful...and yes, thank you very much for sparing Jake Ryan.
Posted by: talia at October 16, 2007 9:57 PM
Hmm. I think this list is a great example of why the two 'Romantic' movies I adore are Casablanca and Love, Actually.
Both are paradoxically silmutaneous idealized versions of love, and a gut punch that not everything will end happily.
Posted by: Trek Barnes at October 16, 2007 10:16 PM
Lloyd Dobler became Martin Blank in Grosse Point Blank.
Posted by: slz at October 16, 2007 10:47 PM
Actually, high school sweathearts who get married have a lower divorce rate than other couples. Learned that in a stats class. Nice baseless assumption though.
Posted by: Erin at October 16, 2007 10:48 PM
First time comment!
I just had to say i enjoyed this even though I am a complete sucker for chick flicks. I totally agree that a Lloyd would just be too much to have hanging around all the time. However, Chuck Klosterman and the occasional references to him on this site drive me freakin insane! Look, I like the guy alright, I read that book, I plan to read his next one eventually because I am somewhat bitter and cynical and amused by his writing but I could actually in a way compare him to Lloyd, but a more pretentious version. I just find Mr. Klosterman to think that he is very amazing for being so sarcastic and witty, as if he is the first person. Honestly it could just be because he reminds me of one of my best friends who acts just like that. Funny, yet I want to kill for having to be right on everything...
Posted by: upsidedownck at October 16, 2007 10:58 PM
Since more than one person said it, let me just say that there is no way that Lloyd Dobler became Martin Blank. I'm a fan of both characters, but there is absolutely no way. Lloyd Dobler is far too much of an empath to kill anyone, and he certainly would not "sell" or "process" such a service.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 16, 2007 11:04 PM
Renee>> You're correct that it's not 50 percent, but all the links I found indicate that it's a hell of a lot bigger than 2 - 8 %. It's not an easy statistic to track, but it would seem to be closer to 30 percent.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 16, 2007 11:34 PM
I think Harry and Sally made it.
Posted by: jem at October 17, 2007 12:20 AM
I stopped watching rom-coms altogether for two reasons.
The first one is that they usually make really nice and dreamy first-half-movies, and then ridiculously gooey and contrived second-half-movies.
The second reason goes pretty much as the theme of this article: they never show what those people's lives are headed to be.
Sure, I could never come up with Dustin's harshness, there's a reason for him being Pajiba Supremus. Anyway, I usually couldn't help but feel cheated on after the forementioned bad second half, when everything goes wrong, then the characters suddenly move to fantasy land, things simply start working through the nonexistent "magic of love", credits roll and I went, "Well, that was ludicrous, my good people, good job. But the stuff I really want to see has just started and I want to go on with that. What, no more?".
Posted by: gargumma at October 17, 2007 1:00 AM
Word pro_luv. Word.
Posted by: ciji at October 17, 2007 1:09 AM
Actually, the rate of divorce is about 50% the CDC's most current report states:
Marriage and Divorce
Number of marriages: 2,230,000
Marriage rate: 7.5 per 1,000 total population
Divorce rate: 3.6 per 1,000 population
The information is accurate, it doesn't matter wheter you track a specific couple over time...the rate would be the same.
Posted by: clarity at October 17, 2007 1:28 AM
Any one care to comment on the fortunes of Lucy and Jack? C'mon. I know you've seen "While you were sleeping". 'Fes up.
And don't you dare start with "well, they travelled the world...."
Posted by: general rhubarb at October 17, 2007 1:32 AM
If you want to know what really happened to Lloyd and Diane just watch an episode of thirtysomething.
Pretty Woman -- The hooker gets HIV, she passes it on to Rich Guy, he throws her ass on the street, she gets full blown AIDS and dies, he hooks up with Magic Johnson's doctor and is now healthier than ever and having unprotected sex with Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton and Pam Anderson.
Harry and Sally -- They both realized how fucking annoying they both are and killed each other in a murder/suicide pact.
Jerry Maguire -- She died of an eating disorder.
Garden State -- He knocked her up then cheated on her with a girl that looked a lot like Rachel Bilson because he wasn't ready to grow up.
Posted by: JP at October 17, 2007 1:37 AM
And about Lloyd Dobbler, yes I love him. Not because I think that he and Diane will live happily ever after... that seems like an impossibility. And not because I want someone just like him. I love him for being so hopelessly in love that he'd make the grand romantic gesture below her window.
Posted by: clarity at October 17, 2007 1:42 AM
It seems a bit ballsy for anyone to screw with The Princess Bride, even the "Pajiba Supremus" himself.
I too thank you for not trashing Jake Ryan, he takes the cake -- sensitive guy looking for more, but not without his share of unscrupulousness -- 'cause you know, its totally cool to let another guy drive your unconscious girlfriend home in exchange for another chick's underpants.
Posted by: Finn at October 17, 2007 1:50 AM
buttercup and westley stayed together forever
Posted by: anna at October 17, 2007 3:43 AM
buttercup and westley stayed together forever
Posted by: anna at October 17, 2007 3:43 AM
I for one am thankful that the sacred ground that is Mr. Darcy and Eliza Bennett wasn't included in this "what would actually happen" scenario. So, thanks.
Also most (if not all) the "romantic" gestures in these movies would scare the living daylights out of any normal girl. And would be met with restraining orders.
Posted by: io at October 17, 2007 4:15 AM
"Any one care to comment on the fortunes of Lucy and Jack? C'mon. I know you've seen "While you were sleeping". 'Fes up."
Hahaha! Only every time it's on TV! Something about that film just draws me in. Anyway, I'd say they are blissfully happy even now.
No, seriously.
Posted by: Craig at October 17, 2007 4:22 AM
I stand here hand on heart (not that you can see but I'm doing it for dramatic effect) slightly worried about the response to what I'm about to say...
My hell? Two weeks stuck in a room with Lloyd Dobler. I'd have to kill him after the second day and then spend the remaining twelve on the other side of the room trying to block out the smell of his slowly festering corpse. That is how strongly I feel about it.
I like Say Anything but for a girl like me Lloyd would not be a good match. Seriously. I attract real life versions of Lloyd and they're obsessive, whiny and kinda stalkerish. (I of course do not refer to my very own internet stalker as he's lovely, I actually like him and have no desire to blind him with splintery objects). It's not cute.
Teen dramas are worse than romantic comedies in my view, after watching too much TV *coughOneTreeHillcough* I find myself convinced that meaningful glances are going to be interpreted in exactly the right way and relationships are all tortured and meaningful and stuff when in fact they are mundane and full of paranoia and confusion.
In other, entirely unrelated news today would have been my 4th anniversary with the Ex Mr TheOdd. Bitter? Moi? Count on it.
Thanks for the piece Dustin, you've made me cackle with delight. The imagined breakup scene between the characters of Garden State was bloody superb (I really hate that movie and the sappy characters within it) and personally I think you were spot on with Sleepless in Seattle too.
Posted by: Alex the Odd at October 17, 2007 5:05 AM
I completely agree with the Sleepless in Seattle one. There was too much working against them. That was a very good observation. I agreed with just about everyone of them except When Harry Met Sally. I agree with the other posters that they were good friends and that is what makes a good marriage in my book. Sure they would have bickered but I see that one working out. And the As Good As It Gets...SO TRUE! He was awful. I can't imagine any woman wanting to spend their lives with Melvin. Who wants to be with a guy who points out you insecurities. No thanks.
I love romcoms but I can also see the realistic side. That being said...I can't wait to see Enchanted! Ha ha.
Posted by: lyricalcatt at October 17, 2007 8:30 AM
Since, due to recent relationship-related events, I am currently considering taking the veil, I laughed all the way through this - in a bitter sort of way.
Posted by: zarahruth at October 17, 2007 8:36 AM
I'm not completely positive Say Anything belongs on this list, b/c what makes Lloyd and Diane's story interesting is that it's obvious it will never work out. It's a great ending b/c it doesn't show that inevitable, miserable end. It shows all the unrealistic hopefulness of youth and then the screen goes blank. You don't have to watch them eventually fall apart, and even though you know they will, there's something worth it in the experience (nod to Eternal Sunshine of A Spotless Mind here). It seems to me that many of Cameron Crowe's movies focus on that theme: i.e., these kinds of relationships might be doomed, but remember that wonderful moment when you were convinced you could make it work? That moment is worth a telling.
Posted by: watoosa at October 17, 2007 9:14 AM
Benny & Ruthie raise Joon & Sam's retarded baby and wonder which of the 2 to attempt to sterilize.
Posted by: Razorburn at October 17, 2007 12:08 PM
Here's what I've learned from romantic comedies:
If you are a single woman in your late 20's/early 30's who has been unlucky in love, your building handyman/gardener/plumber will be a well-built (though he never goes to the gym) Renaissance man. He will play classical piano, cook gourmet meals, practice some form of non-dogmatic, non-threatening, one-with-the-cosmos spirituality, never raise his voice, never watch sports, and continue to make himself available to you despite your constant condescension and interest in other men.
Posted by: GeronimoRumplestiltskin at October 17, 2007 12:26 PM
Movies are a fantasy life; I for one don't expect or want them to be real so that I can keep enjoying them as escapism. That said, this article made me snort milk through my nose. Bravo!
Posted by: zh at October 17, 2007 12:51 PM
Of course you didn't discuss the ONE couple who really did make it: Randy and Julie from Valley Girl. Seriously.
They took off from her disaster prom in the limo her asshole date had rented. They both went to UCLA (Randy on scholarship, he was a suprisingly good student) and they did experience a few breaks, but they knew deep down inside they were meant to be together.
Julie became a high school English teacher and Randy became a music producer, eventually starting his own record label, Valley Gal, which he later changed to RJ Discs.
Julie got her master's just before their first daughter was born. They have two girls and are living happily outside of LA. Oh they married in 89, so in a couple of years, they'll celebrate their 20th anniversary.
SHUT UP DON'T WRECK MY FANTASY ABOUT THEM.
My husband thinks that the couple from "For Keeps" (Molly Ringwald and some guy, they have a baby in high school and get married) are still together, but I think he's crazy. No WAY are they still together. They had one more kid then divorced.
Posted by: Kathy at October 17, 2007 1:18 PM
Of course you didn't discuss the ONE couple who really did make it: Randy and Julie from Valley Girl. Seriously.
They took off from her disaster prom in the limo her asshole date had rented. They both went to UCLA (Randy on scholarship, he was a suprisingly good student) and they did experience a few breaks, but they knew deep down inside they were meant to be together.
Julie became a high school English teacher and Randy became a music producer, eventually starting his own record label, Valley Gal, which he later changed to RJ Discs.
Julie got her master's just before their first daughter was born. They have two girls and are living happily outside of LA. Oh they married in 89, so in a couple of years, they'll celebrate their 20th anniversary.
SHUT UP DON'T WRECK MY FANTASY ABOUT THEM.
My husband thinks that the couple from "For Keeps" (Molly Ringwald and some guy, they have a baby in high school and get married) are still together, but I think he's crazy. No WAY are they still together. They had one more kid then divorced.
Posted by: Kathy at October 17, 2007 1:24 PM
I agree that Lloyd is a man of character (part of his stalker-ish-ness is just being 19, so I suspect he grew out of it), but every time I see that movie, I feel bad for him. Not because Diane breaks up with him, but because he needs someone as generically as Diane does, but he doesn't recognize that in himself.
And Edward and Vivian never get very far in their relationship, because they can't get past the fact that by the time they get back to New York, Philip Stuckey has told everyone he knows that Edward is planning to marry a hooker.
Posted by: Kate at October 17, 2007 1:39 PM
Clarity>> You are not correct about that. Yes, the statistic you cite is correct, but that only implies that the divorce rate of new marriages is at 50 percent, and even that is not precisely true, given that the divorces for this year correspond with marriages for previous years.
For example, let's suppose that 30 to 40 years ago from the years 1967 to 1976 the marriage rate was 7.5 per 1000 population as it is now, but the divorce rate was 0 per 1000 population (not true, but for the purposes of mathematically illustrating my point, easy to use). Let's also assume that from 1977 to the present the rate you cite was consistently true.
For the mathematical ease of this illustration let's assume a constant population of 100,000 people and no deaths. (Obviously this a vast oversimplification, but for the purposes of examining only the divorce rate, it is enlightening.)
Thus, in 1967 we have 750 marriages and no divorces, in 1968 we have 750 marriages and no divorces, and so on and so forth. At the end of the ten years, you have 7500 people who are married with no divorces.
Now, beginning in 1977, we have 750 marriages but 375 divorces with this new 50 percent "rate." (Our total becomes 7875 people are married.) In 1978 we again have 750 marriages and 375 divorces. (Now we are at 8250 married people.) After thirty years out of our population of 100,000, we have 18,750 people who are married.
Let's make two final assumptions. Suppose that all 7500 people who were married in that first ten-year span never got divorced - that in the subsequent 30 years only marriages that took place during that time ever divorced. Also suppose that all divorces take place in the first year and that no one marries a second time. (Yes, this sets up a silly idealistic world for those ten years and implies that all of the marriages in our subsequent years with divorces ended in the first year, but again, this mathematically illustrates that a present rate of 50 percent does not imply a total rate of 50 percent.)
So, in this world all 18,750 people who are married have only been married once and have never divorced. And over the course of 30 years, 11,250 people (375 * 30) have married and then divorced.
As you can see, that is clearly not a fifty percent divorce rate. There have been a total of 30,000 people married, but only 11,250 (37.5 percent have divorced).
Again, this is obviously not a real-world example, but for the purposes of mathematical modeling it makes the point that twice as many marriages as divorces in a single year does not imply a fifty percent divorce rate across time.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 17, 2007 1:52 PM
Jeez...sparse defense of Lloyd and rampant criticism despite my empassioned defense. You ladies are harsh. I guess this explains why I can't get a date.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 17, 2007 2:12 PM
I need to rant.
Yes, yes, and YES for the "Pretty Woman" scenario. I've been through the whole shitload of hypocrisy that women aren't supposed to have multiple sex partners but it's perfectly okay for men to do so. My ex was like that. He even told me that he never could have gotten really serious with me because I slept with him the first night we met. I'm pretty sure there were two people involved in that decision... And he questioned me relentlessly about my past sex life. Why are men so insecure about sexually liberated women?? I've had men tell me that no one wants to marry a girl that has been with several guys. But yet they want a girl who is a firecracker in the sack... American Novelist Edward Dahlberg said,
"What most men desire is a virgin who is a whore."
While I'm not entirely sure of the context in which this quote was used, what scares me is that these words were written around the mid 1900s and they still apply to many men's attitudes today.
That's my rant. I'm done. I've just decided that the man for me is one that does not judge me for my past indiscretions. But, where the hell is he?? I'm pretty sure he doesn't exist around here...I guess that's what living in Texas gets ya as far as sexual evolution is concerned.
Posted by: Mistress Violet at October 17, 2007 2:34 PM
Aww, Darth Corleone! A well-spoken, Lloyd Dobler-emulating, Godfather-watching math nerd? If you cannot get a date, you are clearly not meeting anyone who shares my taste in men!
That said, this was quite funny, but as far as I'm concerned, both Benny and Joon and Say Anything are off limits. Those movies make me so, so happy I can't even express it.
Posted by: Lily Lily at October 17, 2007 3:38 PM
Mistress Violet>> No offense, but your ex is a jackass.
As for me, I have no problem with sexually liberated women and in fact prefer them. I agree the whole double standard is a load of crap.
My only hangup stems from personal insecurity, and I suspect I am not the only one among males with this issue. Many of us are ridiculously obsessed with sexual performance and satisfying our partners, and we want to be the best. (That is not to say that women do not feel the same insecurity at times, but there is no question that the female orgasm is more elusive than the male orgasm.) This of course becomes a less realistic proposition the more sexual partners that your partner has had. Obviously this is a problem with the male ego and not the fault of women, but it is worth stating as an explanation for at least some of the psychological motivation for our curiosity about women's past sexual partners that goes beyond the bullshit stupidity that some guys have about "virgins" and "whores."
At this point in my life I'm wise enough not to ask too many questions, silently doubt myself, try my best, and hope the woman gives me some positive reinforcement.
By the way, I spent most of my life in Texas. I miss many things about it, but the general social conservatism is not among them.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 17, 2007 3:55 PM
Aw guys! If everyone keeps moving away from Texas, who am I going to talk to?! As it is, our house is the fault line between our neighborhood conservitives (whose front lawns are immaculately manicured and green as can be) on the one side and the liberals (whose front yards consist of Victory veggie gardens, and herb gardens in the shape of Buddhist prayer symbols) on the other...
We love our neighbors. They're so interesting :)
Posted by: Stella at October 17, 2007 5:38 PM
lordy. I meant 'conservatives'.
Posted by: Stella at October 17, 2007 5:41 PM
If Lloyd Dobler and Diane Court were still together today (they are not, I conjecture), you can bet your ass that Lloyd is selling or processing something sold or processed to take care of Lloyd, Jr. and provide Diane with the sort of comforts she was accustomed to when her father was bilking the nursing home.
Hey! I object! Who's to say that the ambitious and over-acheiving Diane wouldn't be happy to bring home the bacon, and that Lloyd wouldn't delight in being a stay-at-home dad?
Posted by: tetetetigi at October 17, 2007 6:41 PM
I'm with you, io. Women aren't holding out for Lloyd Dobler, they're hoping for Mr Darcy.
Posted by: M at October 17, 2007 8:19 PM
First time comment (please be kind). At the request of a friend of mine I put together a what happened to Josh and Cher of Clueless. Please excuse the many spelling and grammatical faults but at work and have already spent way too much time on this!!: Enjoy.
Josh returned to his dorm to see out semester. They saw each other weekends when he would stay over at her place (in separate beds obviously, Cher's dad was terrifying). Because their time was limited to weekends and considering Josh's lack of enthusiasm about hanging out with Cher's "vapid" (in his words) friends, Cher's social life dropped off considerably.
Now no longer in the cool group Cher became more and more reliant on Josh as her social life. Cher's demands on his time also increased, wanting Josh to be in his dorm at 8 pm every night so she could "touch base" with him (remembering this predates everyone having a mobile phone and Josh definitely being one of those w*nkers who wouldn't have had one at the time). As Josh's involvement with the student branch of communist political group 'Resistance' increased his weekends became less and less available to her.
Cher was increasingly paranoid about Josh's social life accusing him of cheating on her on an almost daily basis. After 18 months of both the very good and the very bad the pressure of this high maintenance romance finally got to Josh and he broke up with Cher during her midterm finals.
Deone camped out at Cher's place to help her through her exams (Some friendships are more important than being cool). Feeding her cookie doe and reading bits of her prescribed texts, and relevant passages from self help book "how to make it without a man"
Cher did well enough in her exams to go to the local community college where her organisational skills combine with her good taste got her top marks in design. She ends up doing Architecture at NYU and is now one of the cities finest. She lives on the Upper East side and wears a lot of black (mainly Donna Karan) but still thinks Polaroid's are the best way to perfect a look. She dates around the scene but finds most men pretty shallow. She still holds hope that she will find her JFK Jr.
The last time she saw Josh was on the television being arrested at the 911 protest in 2000. As he still keeps in contact her father she knows he works for a progressive Senator from one of the midland states (god knows which one) and is engaged to an intern from the Department of Agriculture. She hears he is happy and a little fat (which doesn't surprise her at all).
Posted by: c at October 18, 2007 3:16 AM
Mistress Violet: do not even get me started. I suffer on a daily basis because during my time as a single girl I've *le gasp* gone out and had fun (OK, maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit but my point still stands).
Although I do have a double standard myself in that I refuse to see any guy I meet in a bar again. After all: do I really want to date the kind if guy who picks up girls in bars?
I'm just as bad as them aren't I?
Posted by: Alex the Odd at October 18, 2007 4:54 AM
After reading the posts...forget Lloyd Dobler, I'm in love with Darth Corleone!
Posted by: Alissa at October 18, 2007 12:04 PM
I know that it falls (very) far from the ROM-COM genre, but for a refreshing take on denoument, PLEASE see Eastern Promises... Who would have thought that Hughes and Cronenberg would be mentioned in the same thread (sigh)
Posted by: SR at October 18, 2007 12:43 PM
I'm just glad that your ending for Wesley and Buttercup was much less depressing than the ending they got in the book.
Posted by: cmoody at October 18, 2007 3:36 PM
I'm just glad that your ending for Wesley and Buttercup was much less depressing than the ending they got in the book.
Posted by: cmoody at October 18, 2007 3:43 PM
Alissa>> lol
Thanks.
So...ummmm...you wanna go out sometime? :- )
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 18, 2007 4:37 PM
Darth>>
Don't tease me! You've definitely piqued my curiosity...I'm seriously intrigued and smitten! ;-}
Posted by: Alissa at October 18, 2007 6:29 PM
"Piqued" and "smitten." Two of my favorite words.
If you're ever in L.A.... :- )
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 18, 2007 9:51 PM
Alissa and Darth Corleone - if you two hook up can we get the lowdown? I'm sure it could be made into a script and in a rather perfect elliptical way, your story could feature in a rom com....
People will love it. Critics will hate it. Pajibans will speculate on the small possibility that your marriage will last (after a presumably gorgeous wedding where Darth will don a black suit an possibly a black mask)
You see where this is going???
Posted by: general rhubarb at October 18, 2007 10:38 PM
Throw in a few musical numbers and a talking dog, and we'd have a film for the ages...
Posted by: PaleoLithchick at October 19, 2007 10:27 AM
Whew! I can't believe I read this thing all the way through.
Alissa came from nowhere to whisk Darth Corleone from the encroaching Mistress Violet. That's how I think it played out, anyhow. Lily Lily's synopsis of Darth was also worth a chuckle.
As for Dustin's flight of cinematic fancy, it struck this incurable romantic as overly cynical. When imagination offers no relief from reality then we are truly ruined.
I'm just glad he didn't take on "Ever After". While there's probably not enough comedy (of the intentional sort, anyway) for it to even merit attention here, I'm still glad it was spared. This movie is the all-time favorite of my two 'tween daughters (who live with their mother, the woman who I can't believe I once found attractive and who now bears an uncanny resemblance to Bea Arthur's younger sister...or possibly niece now that I calculate ages...you get the point). The fact that they love this movie makes me smile. A lot. And worry. A little. But mostly smile.
Alex the Odd:
You're a hoot!
Posted by: Grover at October 19, 2007 4:41 PM
So delighted to see people spell "piqued" correctly.
Posted by: Samantha T at October 19, 2007 6:14 PM
Ooh, I missed good stuff!
Dear Darth Corleone,
Okay, so my earlier statements need some clarification, I was trying to refute the really low divorce estimates and came across non-specific! :)
Specifically, "...counter to popular beliefs, 50% of first marriages do not end in divorce, although 45% to 50% of all marriages end in divorce. For first marriages, the divorce rate is actually between 35% and 40%. Although second marriages have higher divorce rates than first marriages (between 65% and 70%), couples in successful second marriages experience greater marital satisfaction and pride than couples in successful first marriages (McCarthy & McCarthy, 2005)."
And if ever you want to debate it I'd be happy to meet you at the Social Distortion drummer's bar in Long Beach!
Posted by: clarity at October 20, 2007 5:19 AM
DAMN! There are some cynical and heartless motherfuckers in the world today.
Lloyd Dobler a stalker? I think not.
Hey, I always thought every girl (not woman) deserved a Lloyd Dobler at least once in their lives. Even, if it is just to give a girl some perspective! What's wrong with being nineteen and in love? What's wrong with a grand romantic gesture? It least Lloyd had the courage to be love's bitch.
Even if you know their relationship is doomed to failure, I think Lloyd and Diane's emotional journey is ultimately worth telling.
"Lloyd Dobler became Martin Blank in Grosse Point Blank." Ummmm, siz I think I like that.
Posted by: allheavens at October 20, 2007 10:46 AM
Clarity>> I was not really trying to debate you, as I do not know the precise statistics. I'm more of a pure math guy and just got carried away. All I wanted to do was illustrate that a divorce rate in a given year does not imply the same rate across time. In hindsight I could have been much less Polonius-like and simply set up a counterexample consisting of two years with a much smaller sample size and a simpler hypothetical divorce rate. :- )
However, now that I think about it, I do think it is slightly misleading to lump marriages of the second iteration or higher into divorce statistics if we want to make useful statements about our society's ability to be monogamous. My brother, for example, is on his third marriage, but it's a very different piece of data to say that he is a divorcee than it is to say that he is twice-divorced. It makes more sense to me to couch the statistic in terms of single people instead of in terms of each individual marriage, given that Elizabeth Taylor and Larry King can skew the entire population themselves. :- )
I have not hung out in Long Beach since moving out to the west coast, but I'll make a point of checking that joint out if I make the drive down there.
Posted by: Darth Corleone at October 20, 2007 3:55 PM
Wow. I love the underlying theme of the article - that women just aren't smart/realistic/whatever enough to separate the world of fiction from reality. But...a lot of women can, I think. I love romantic comedies, but I'm not crazy enough to believe that my next boyfriend is going to be Lloyd Dobler or that I can mold some poor guy into being an exact replica of him (and I wouldn't want to anyway!).
Movies are obviously fiction, and romantic comedies offer some fantasy-style relief from the often (let's face it) depressing world of dating. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Posted by: Helen at October 21, 2007 11:14 AM
Dustin, Dustin...I am so sure that there are women who think the movies are real...but the vibe I'm getting from my fellow female readers is that we enjoy a good flight into fantasy. At least, that's what I consider a (good) rom-com. Don't ruin it for us.
Harry and Sally totally made it. As did Lucy and Jack. Not to mention Elizabeth and Darcy.
Posted by: bonnie at October 21, 2007 5:05 PM
I thought Vivian only slept with one guy before Edward. Wasn't she new to hooking when she met him?
I've never seen Say Anything, either. Just that clip of Cusak with the boom box.
And don't ever, ever eff with Wesley and Buttercup!
Posted by: justine at October 21, 2007 6:52 PM
Of course, Lena Leonard and Barry Egan lived happily ever after the 'Punch-Drunk Love' credits finished.
He did not, REPEAT, DID NOT make good on his claim to cave her head in with a baseball bat.
Posted by: hobbledehoy at October 22, 2007 12:21 AM
Loved this. I confess I'm one of the women still in love with Lloyd after all these years. God knows I sat through Serendipity because of it, and that proves Omnia Vincit Amor. (Though John Corbett made it worthwhile. LOL.)
But I think you've missed the point. Women don't think everything worked out for Lloyd and Diane. What women love about that relationship is the story Diane will be able to tell later. Men collect trophy stories about sex; women collect trophy stories about "what a guy did because he was in love with me." Its those "Once Upon a Times" that keep us warm through the vicissitudes of real-time relationships.
Posted by: Jennifer at October 23, 2007 8:05 AM
Okay, I note that we've overlooked "The Other Sister". I assume that is for reasons of political correctness, because if any romantic ending was ripe for satire (except, I suppose, Pretty Woman), that is the movie.
The only worthwhile rom-com is Wild at Heart . . .
Posted by: denadn03 at October 25, 2007 5:42 PM