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Whoopi Goldberg Said Something Stupid about Rape on The View Again

By Courtney Enlow | Videos | February 13, 2014 | Comments ()


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God dammit again.

So, the anthropomorphized scream factory with the aggregate IQ of a box of turtle turds , aka, the panel of The View, tackled James Taranto’s now infamous Washington Post article, “a balanced look at college sex offenses,” balanced here meaning bitches need to take some damn responsibility for all that rape they’re allowing themselves to get already (at one point he posits that two lives might be ruined by a rape—one of them belonging to the man because the woman might press charges against him). The conversation was a mature, rational one. JK GUYZ NO.

Whoopi Goldberg, who once famously declared that a man drugging and forcibly sodomizing a child wasn’t “rape-rape” learned absolutely nothing from that experience and subsequent uproar and dropped some science. Poop science.

“My opinion is, if you don’t want this kind of attention, don’t get poop-faced,” she said. “Do not get poop-faced. Do not become so drunk you don’t know what is happening. When you say ‘x, y, z happened,’ you have no way of proving it. So both parties, if you don’t want the agitation, do not become so drunk you can’t figure out what the hell you’re doing.”

Jenny McCarthy acted as the voice of reason, and that’s why for a few minutes yesterday the sun went black and we gazed upon the grim visages of our otherworldly counterparts in another dimension because the universe folded in on itself.

Watch the video on Mediaite.

Look. There is a conversation to be had about the line between victim-blaming and woman taking care of themselves and having whatever control is to be had over any given situation. I don’t know the right way to have that conversation. I don’t know if there is a right way to have that conversation, frankly. It is as muddy as it is necessary. But I can say all of this *waves arms wildly over entire post* is not it. At all.



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Comments Are Welcome, Jerks Will Be Banned


  • The trouble with these arguments - both valid - is when they're mixed. At that point, they become toxic radioactive misogynistic victim-blaming BULLSHIT.

    I'll explain. Certainly, it is good advice to ANYONE - male or female - to avoid becoming SO intoxicated that you can neither regulate nor remember your own behavior. But this advice is for your own protection and has nothing whatsoever to do with "protecting" anyone else from the siren-like, irresistible call to attack you. Because fuck them. They neither need nor deserve protection. The minute you attack someone, the minute you push past "no" or climb on top of someone passed-out drunk or put something in their drink or grab and threaten them - whatever the hell your M.O. is - IT STOPS BEING ABOUT THEIR BEHAVIOR AND BECOMES ABOUT YOURS.

    Self-protection is a compromise we make with a reality in which we cannot trust others to respect us and regulate themselves. It's not "our" responsibility; rather, it's the ASSUMPTION by us of someone else's responsibility. And the degree to which we do - or do not - shoulder someone else's responsibility does NOT, and should NEVER, let them off the hook for shirking it.

  • Maddy

    Everything is terrible. The subtext seems to be, 'Well if the girl was drunk, then go for it, it's kind of her fault anyway for getting so drunk'. NO. A person is still a person, regardless of what 'state' they are in.

  • theHarleyQuinn

    I'm just going to leave this here....

    Ten rape prevention tips:

    1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.
    2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.
    3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.
    4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.
    5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.
    6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.
    7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.
    8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.
    9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.
    10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

  • This may be my favorite comment, anywhere, ever. It is going on paper into my purse - multiple copies - with a roll of tape. Thank you. numbers 8 and 9 in particular are GOLD.

    EDIT - 3 and 6 are pretty awesome, too. Hell with it.. I love them all.

  • theHarleyQuinn

    Good. Post them up everywhere. We need to be teaching "DO NOT RAPE" more than how to avoid rape. We need to teach respect for everyone because asking women to respect themselves in order to ‘earn’ the right to be treated like a human being is total horseshit. But suggesting that you have the right to treat her exactly as you please because she didn’t adhere to your archaic views of feminine propriety is misogyny, plain and simple. //end rant

  • tojo

    I think l love you...

  • theHarleyQuinn

    Well aren't you sweet :]

  • The Gypsy

    So, if only the girl is drunk, is it totally her fault? This has nothing to do with alcohol, it has to do with the rape culture and how we treat it. I don't care what drugs you or your conquest are on, you are still responsible for forcing yourself on someone else against their will or with a deficient level of cognizance. No one gets a pass, regardless of how the time before an attack was spent. NO ONE chooses to be raped, ever. There is only a decision to rape made by rapists, that is why it is wrong. No one ever consented to rape via their actions, clothing, or intoxication level. That, is the very nature of the attack of rape--nonconsentual. Until we address that (the fact that if women want to dress "slutty" they have a right! and if they want to get drunk they have a right! without having to carry around the burden that they if they get attacked that some people will blame them), and hold those responsible for their actions, all this talk about a woman's role in her own rape is disgusting, useless, and distractionary.

  • gnibs

    Is there an Enlow free version of Pajiba?

  • Lee

    You don't need to be here at all.

  • gnibs

    I don't think I know what that means.

  • Lee

    I'm not surprised.

  • gnibs

    You're adorable.

  • Dumily

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's called TMZ.

  • MichaelBishop

    Ok, read Whoopi's quote and fail to see the problem. They were discussing that in situations where both the male and female have too much too drink and sex happens, the male always gets blamed. Whoopi simply said, that a good way to prevent this is to watch your behavior and not get so drunk that you no longer control your situation. What's the problem? Don't want to get victimized (MALE or FEMALE), conduct yourself better.

  • Dumily

    The issue is:
    1.) These are not incidents where sex happens. These are incidents where rape happens. Men don't get blamed for getting drunk and having sex, men get blamed for getting drunk and raping women.
    2.) Putting the onus on victims to prevent their own assault is at best useless, and at worst incredibly sexist. If simply telling women to "Watch Out for Rape!" worked, then we'd be seeing almost no sexual assaults. Instead 1 in 6 women will be attacked. And we don't tell robbery victims that they should have conducted themselves better.

  • Salieri2
  • googergieger

    And you thought Jenny Mccarthy was stupid because, well, she is. But yeah what the eff Whoopi? First Burglar, now this?

  • Frank P. Gengo IV

    "JK GUYZ NO."

    I can't say anything about rape that hasn't already been said here in the comments, but I feel the need to give you credit for being the only person who can make me laugh while reading a serious article about rape.

  • e jerry powell

    Didn't we already beat Serena Williams down over this last year?

  • HelloLongBeach

    "My opinion is, if you don’t want this kind of attention, don’t get poop-faced," YEESH! Why would she equate being raped with getting attention? The sentence makes me sad. Rape is a crime, in this country anyway, because as a society we decided that abusing someone else's body in any way, but particularly in a sexual manner, is reprehensible. It is reprehensible act and not -I REPEAT- not! attention.

  • huh.

    To be fair I don't think she was referring to the act of seeking attention i.e. "look at me! I'm a drunk woo girl!" but rather to the result of being the victim of unwanted attention from a rapist. In other words, you're less likely to attract the attention of the rapist if you don't let your guard down.

  • HelloLongBeach

    You know, this is so hard to talk about because what she said seems like common sense, don't get so shit-faced because when you are, you are vulnerable and sometimes bad things happen. True.
    But
    If a heterosexual man passed out drunk at a party and was sexually assaulted by another man would we say "well he was drunk and attracting the wrong sorts of attention"? Wouldn't we be up in arms about how heinous a crime had been committed? What sort of deviant does that? "We must find him! We must stop him!"
    The reason I don't like her use of the word attention to describe the monstrous, horrific and CRIMINAL act of rape is that it disregards the criminal part and I think she makes the distinction that no real crime, no rape-rape, has been committed because women are complicit in the act. If it was a man that had been attacked would we even question rape-rape? Why are they complicit, because they were drunk or because they were women? Should a woman always HAVE to be on her guard lest she become a partner in her debasement?
    Well no, women SHOULDN'T have to but they DO have to. Right? That's the part of her statement that REALLY gets to us because it's common sense, except it's total bullshit. It's fear and it's oppressive and it's time for it to fucking go!
    You say "you're less likely to attract the attention of a rapist if you don't let your guard down". How about stop making it ok to violate and defile someone's body because they are weaker than you.
    Yes, I will educate my children to the pitiful way of the world while they grow up. That there are pathetic assholes that commit crimes against those they perceive as weak, and there will always be, but I will never let them believe that anyone deserved to be victimized. That is a lie used by the abhorrent to justify abhorrent behaviour.
    Rape is a crime. One that Whoopi seems to have internalized by referring to it as unwanted attention and that is fucking sad.

  • huh.

    "How about stop making it ok to violate and defile someone's body because they are weaker than you."

    I don't know anyone who has said it is okay.

    The truth is in your statement here: "I will educate my children to the pitiful way of the world while they grow up. That there are pathetic assholes that commit crimes against those they perceive as weak, and there will always be, but I will never let them believe that anyone deserved to be victimized." But I will go one step further with mine and say that no one deserves to be a victim, but you can do some things to protect yourself and others from being victims.

  • HelloLongBeach

    I feel like your one step further takes diligence into complacency. It plays into an aggressor's hand. Like as if women must at all times be prepared and able to contentiously defend themselves against harm or else they have invited attack. We should not be complacent! Harm does not come from not being well enough armored but from having been attacked! When we put the onus for being unharmed on a woman (or anyone) it is the same as putting the onus for having BEEN harmed on a woman (or anyone). It's the same as making it ok to violate someone because they are weaker than you.

  • huh.

    I feel like we're talking in circles here. It seems like you are saying that asking women to guard themselves against attack leads to complacency. What leads to complacency is this concept of not doing anything to protect yourself because you should just trust that the frat boy at the party who gave you the red solo with a wink and a sly grin shouldn't rape you.
    I don't understand this leap from suggesting you keep your wits about you to saying if you don't then you deserved to be raped. Whoopi did not say this. It is what she is perceived to have said, but not what she said.
    My daughter will (God willing) tell that guy to fuck off and then tell everyone else at the party to stay the hell away from him. But even if she didn't, she would certainly not be at fault for what happens to her. The onus is always on him. But she should be equipped to be aware that he exists and she should watch out for him.

  • HelloLongBeach

    I think teaching women they must always be on guard IS complacency. It kind of makes you feel like you've done something to change the situation when in reality you've just adapted to it.

    "What leads to complacency is this concept of not doing anything to protect yourself because you should just trust that the frat boy at the party who gave you the red solo with a wink and a sly grin shouldn't rape you."

    People shouldn't rape other people whether they drink from the cup or not. I'm not just mis-percieving that you stated men should rape women who are not protecting themselves. Maybe you meant something different?

  • Dumily

    "Should a woman always HAVE to be on her guard lest she become a partner in her debasement?"

    I'm not sure I've ever heard this idea voiced so perfectly.

  • bleujayone

    There are two different worlds here; the world as it ought to be and the world as it is. One world is fair, just, equal and can rely on the common sense, honor and decency of all and the other merely promises all that but delivers on very little when it counts.

    In a the world we want, a woman should be able to wear whatever outfit she sees fit without fear that someone will use it as an unspoken invitation for prejudgement assault. She should be free to go wherever she wants without fear of being endangered. She should be able to engage in the same activities as any man and not have to concern herself with the thought of being stripped of her dignity, safety, humanity and perhaps even her life.

    More to it than that, she be able to count on all human beings around her. Not only her friends but just people in general. And if heaven forbid something horrible does happen to her, she should be able to count on people to help her heal, defend her, speak up for her and reassure her that despite it all life has more meaning for her that just as a statistic.

    That all said... I cannot say that world exists as of yet nor am I confident that such a place will come to full fruition in my lifetime. Societies have a long way to go to reach that level of maturity and for that matter our own system of legal justice has far to go as well. A great deal of people are quick to blame the victims, because it's far easier and often because it is falsely believed that if every precaution were taken, the likelihood of being a victim would allegedly be reduced exponentially. But just like many other crimes, people forget that sometimes no precaution will work. Locked houses get broken into, cars with alarms blaring still get stolen, people living in a small, quiet town can still be murdered and women can be and are assaulted for doing absolutely nothing wrong. But what so many people forget is that many of the things they blame women for doing as an invitation would hold an argument for other crimes. If someone walked around wearing a sandwichboard that read, "Please Murder Me!" and someone else obliged, they would still go to jail for murder. So why do people believe that any activity a woman might engage automatically equates to wearing a sign that begs "Rape Me" and therefore a degree of blame must fall on them?

    I am going to advise my daughter someday when the time comes that our world is a very imperfect place. She is going to have to rely on herself first on foremost. She is going to have to be a fighter not just for herself but for every woman that comes after her. I am going to advise her to take every safety precaution- not because I feel it is her responsibility and fault if she does not, but rather because the world has shown to be unreliable and I as a parent cannot watch over her forever, nor should she even want me to. This world of billions is going to be glacial in its ability to change, and I feel I need to fortify her with any means, however futile, I can. The world as it is harbors some very cruel people and the only way to protect oneself is to remain ever vigilant. Especially because the world has proven time and again that when societies are called upon to be the advocate for victims, the efforts are still largely non-existent. I look forward to the day when that is no longer the case.

  • Trailer Included

    the color purple was on bounce yesterday. i can still watch that and forget whoopi and oprah are in it and just enjoy the movie.

    when i see whoopi as herself now tho, i just think SOUR. she's so SOUR it just hurts to try to even watch her, so i don't.

  • God Of Bal-Sagoth

    Women should not get super duper, blackout drunk. They absolutely shouldn't, and I mean that 100% seriously. You know why? For the same reason that men shouldn't. Because it's not particularly healthy. Having your stomach pumped is no picnic, folks.

    But using alcohol intake as a means of rape prevention is the most idiotic, insulting, misogynistic pile of fucking garbage ever. Drink less and you won't get raped? That's really our message to women? AND men? Because you're basically legitimizing rapists who go after drunk women by saying that.

    Whoopi - and anyone else who defends that psychopathic line of reasoning - needs to take a seat in a corner for a little while.

  • stella

    Exactly, if you get blackout drunk you deserve a wicked hangover in the morning, not sexual assult.

  • Dumily

    Bless you.

  • Trailer Included

    Because it's so easy to prove your point by using the word "fuck" (Even if I agree with the point you're making.)

  • Trailer Included

    Mr. Pajiba "Fuck" Dumily

  • Trailer Included

    Bwa ha ha ha. Downvote cause I called out someone who bullies other posters with it's liberal use of the "F" word.

  • Jezzer

    No, downvote because you're being an idiot and an asshole. Also, it's "its" when used in the possessive form.

  • Dumily

    I think sometimes swearing is exactly what you need to prove your fucking point.

  • Bert_McGurt

    Not to mention - there are quite a few drugs out there with effects that make it APPEAR as if someone is blackout drunk. One glass of a spiked drink is all it takes.

    I seriously wonder how many of these rape cases where the victim was claimed to be "blacked out" are really the effects of a drugged drink that no one's aware of. Which, as you say, sends the message that it's OK as long as no one can PROVE you slipped her a roofie.

  • jsilly1

    Yep.Happened to me at a bar I went to all the time after work with co-workers. I had a glass of wine and a couple sips of a Cosmo that the bartender bought for me. I drank some, got up to walk to the bar because I was going to leave shortly and I blacked out and woke up 9 hours later at my mother's house and no bag, nothing. I'm sure people thought I was drunk. I wasn't. It was the scariest thing ever. My mother said I showed up at her house at 3am crying and not making sense and she figured I had drank too much. See! Even my own mother thought I was drunk. Scary!!!

  • bastich

    Sounds like someone needs to connect Whoopi to the #safetytipsforladies feed:

  • Tinkerville

    Goldberg victim blaming and Jenny McCarthy being sensible? Nope. This is enough internet for me today.

  • Mrs. Julien

    I know the McCarthy element is surprising, but Whoopi Goldberg has been vile for years now.

  • Tinkerville

    Oh absolutely. I should have included an "again" there. I just hoped she had learned to keep her opinions shoved up her ass where they belong.

  • Davis

    'Jenny McCarthy acted as the voice of reason' I'm glad I don't watch that show

  • MJ

    I think there are two separate issues that get jumbled together: 1) everyone has a responsibility on a basic human-safety level to look after themselves (and that includes not getting so plastered you don't know what happens to you); 2) rape is never under any circumstance the victim's fault, regardless of how drunk she is. These two points are not mutually exclusive.

  • jon29

    I couldn't agree more.

    Nobody was asking for it because they got too drunk to know what was going on around them. NOBODY. Not ever. The real fix for this has to be teaching men that this is never OK. It's not OK to do, and it's not OK to do nothing when you see someone else doing it.

    And yet...

    The reality is that there are guys out there who prey on women in this way. Regularly. Frat-boys send their bros instruction manuals for how to do this kind of shit. So I think I would teach my daughters that situational awareness with regard to getting blackout drunk is necessary, and I'd like to think that isn't the same thing as victim-blaming.

  • Dumily

    The issue for me is the meaning of the advice as a personal vs public policy. For you and your daughter, it makes sense that you would tell her not to drink too much because it's unhealthy and any number of bad things could happen. But linking drinking too much to sexual assault as a public matter as Whoopi did sends the message that rape is a personal problem. And that the way to handle rape as a social problem is to make sure you individually take steps to avoid getting rape. That idea only reinforces all of the other misconceptions we have about rape.

  • jon29

    That's a really valuable distinction to make.

    I'm not sure I agree that "linking drinking too much to sexual assault as a public matter as Whoopi did sends the message that rape is a personal problem" though. Alcohol consumption and sexual assault are statistically linked in study after study. At a certain point it feels irresponsible not to address it, doesn't it?

    I feel like there has to be a way to talk about those realities that doesn't end up with victim-blaming.

  • Dumily

    I absolutely agree with you about talking about the realities of rape. But I also think we as a society like to cherry pick which realities we talk about. Because according to RAINN, 28% of rapes are perpetrated by the victim's current or previous intimate partner. But we don't have pundits warning women not to get into relationships. 34% of child victims are assaulted by a family member, but we aren't encouraging people not to have families. In fact, being drinking has been on the rise for the past 30 years even as sexual assaults have decreased. We see a correlation between drinking and sexual assaults, and blame drinking. But we aren't talking about the realities of rape when we do that.

  • jon29

    Agreed re. intimate partners and child victims.

    To me, there is a difference between blaming a sexual assault on drinking, and identifying drinking to excess as a behaviour that can dramatically increase one's chances of being sexual assaulted.

    For example, on their "Drug Facilitated Sexual Assault" page, RAINN provides this definition:

    "when drugs or alcohol are used to compromise an individual's ability to consent to sexual activity. In addition, drugs and alcohol are often used in order to minimize the resistance and memory of the victim of a sexual assault."

    At the bottom of that page is a list of safety tips for drinking that include not leaving your drink unattended, not drinking from punch bowls, only accepting drinks you've watched being poured and then carried yourself, etc.

    I think "avoid drinking to the point of being incapacitated" is likewise a reasonable piece of advice. The blame still belongs 100% the rapist.

  • Dumily

    I definitely agree that there is a difference, but I think it's one that's rife with nuance and not well addressed by Whoopie up there. Her message, and one that's been repeated by Dear Prudence, college administrators and plenty of well intentioned but ill-advised ad campaigns, is that women are obligated to keep men from raping them and if they fail to do so, it's their fault.

  • Mrs. Julien

    Thank you, Courtney, for continuing to beat this drum. I am on the sidelines with cookies and moral support if you find your strength waning.

  • emmalita

    And I have cake, because we all know how Mrs. Julien feels about cake.

  • PoV Hector

    I don't think she meant that as a way to blame victims, but rather, specific cases. I went to a party once, this girl got drunk. Obviously some guy who was also drunk started talking. She claimed that she was taken advantage off. They were both drunk, she kinda put herself in that situation.

    This isn't me saying she is at fault, but sometimes, some people have to take responsibility

  • Dumily

    If they were both drunk, why is it that she put herself in that situation and not him?

  • huh.

    If they both put themselves in that situation and she regretted it later, why is he a rapist?

  • Ah-HAH! HERE's where we can bring in your really stupid burglary analogy from up-thread:

    If I leave my house unlocked, and someone takes advantage of that and comes into my home and steals my things, and I later regret leaving my house unlocked, HE's still the burglar.

  • huh.

    That is not disputed. The burglary analogy was an entirely different topic. This theory that telling women to watch out and protect themselves is somehow saying "make sure the other girl gets raped" is false. The point is that it's a good idea to lock your house, be aware of your surroundings, not get too drunk, etc because it makes you less likely to be a victim. It is not victim blaming to suggest these things. Nor is it suggesting you wish ill on other women. In the burglary analogy, locking your doors is a good idea because the burglar is less likely to enter your residence. Locking my door is not a wish to have my neighbor's home ransacked.
    In the event I do not lock my door and I regret it the next morning, then Butthead Burglar is still the burglar, but I will forever wish I had just locked my door and avoided the fear and insecurity that comes with a violation of the sanctity of my home. That is the problem with rape that no one seems to talk about, it carries lasting wounds that take years to repair (if ever). Advising women to protect themselves against an attack, and the lasting effects is not blaming them if it happens, it's common sense.
    And as I have said before, I agree the message should be sent out to men and women, but until I have enough money to hire private security for my home or body guards from my children, I am still going to also tell them that they have a responsibility to keep themselves safe.

  • **I AM** NotTheOne

    This exact thing. We tell our daughter that when/if she starts drinking it is dangerous - for many reasons - to get drunk. It is also dangerous to be around people who are drunk because some people get mean. Also, if you are with a friend and she/he is drunk try to look out for that friend and make sure they stay safe.

    We say these things to our kids because we are scared shitless that someone will take advantage of them in a vulnerable situation and we will give them any tools we can to protect them.

    Protect yourself in any way you can. Lock up your shit. Carry an umbrella. Use a condom. And keep your hands to yourself and don't take anything that isn't explicitly given to you.

  • winosaurusrex

    and here is another fine line. when does it become rape vs consensual albeit drunken sex (with a stranger or not).

    We should be teaching EVERYONE not to get themselves in these situations period.

  • Dumily

    The OP didn't say "she regretted it later." It said "she claimed she was taken advantage of." There is a difference. And if the issues is that all us drunken whores trick men into sleeping with us, and then cry rape later, why not advise men not to sleep with women who are drunk? Why not advise men not to drink so much that they can't accurately judge how in control of her faculties a woman is? Even if this is a case of "morning after rape", why not try to prevent that situation by advising both genders to play an active role in avoiding them?

  • huh.

    Who determines the difference between being "taken advantage of" and suffering from what defense attorneys call "consent -regret" syndrome? When we create a "victim is never wrong" culture then what was once regret can quickly turn into a feeling of victimization or being "taken advantage of." It's pretty scary.
    As for advising young men and women of not getting so sloppy drunk that they could regret the consequences of their decisions, or worse become pray, I am all for that. I for one will be advising my son to stay the hell away from the drunken whores because of creepy crawlies, because women who are more in possession of their faculties are harder to get and thus a greater reward, and because of the fear of being labeled a rapist by someone who might suddenly wake up the next day and feel he should have been more responsible for a drunken sexual interlude.

  • Jenn TheYellowDart

    "will be advising my son to stay the hell away from the drunken whores because of creepy crawlies, because women who are more in possession of their faculties are harder to get and thus a greater reward"

    WE ARE NOT A FUCKING PRIZE. WE ARE NOT FUCKING OBJECTS NOR ARE WE TROPHIES.

  • huh.

    Not in the material sense of a blue ribbon, no. But if you think that an intelligent, challenging, and witty woman, whose affection you have to actually put in work for isn't a prize then you're selling yourself short.

  • Dumily

    Gross. This is just gross.

  • Dumily

    Are you fucking shitting me?

  • huh.

    Nope. Though I see you are living up to your name's ability to carry out a rational conversation with someone who disagrees with you.

  • Dumily

    Good one. Here's the thing: you can straight go fuck yourself. I don't know or care if this is trolling or just regular stupidity, but that antiquated horseshit you spouted up there is wrong in a dozen different ways and I'm unwilling to address it. And it's "prey", you jackass.

  • huh.

    I asked you a valid question you didn't answer, expressed the concern about the slippery slope of your position, then agreed with you that both men and women need to be educated and responsible. But, good for you for cussing me out three times now, and pointing out that I spelled something wrong.

  • Dumily

    Yeah, you can't say that women are objects for men to win, that sexually experienced women are riddled with disease, and that rape victims are just women who regret having sex, and then pretend you have the moral high ground because I told you to fuck yourself. Your views are archaic and offensive. You have no proof for your position, but I'm sure you'll take no time to research them. Your slippery slope argument is absolutely useless since we have no way of proving what will happen in the future. You have no leg to stand on.

  • huh.

    You're the one who referred to "drunken whores" first. I responded in kind. There is a difference between a drunken whore and a sexually experienced woman.
    I didn't say women were objects but did say some were a prize. I stand by that and explained it further below.
    And I never said rape victims are just women who regret having sex. But there is that concern in some cases. You seem to complain that men are not held to any sort of standard of responsibility but do not want to hold women to any responsibility of their own when both may find themselves putting both of themselves in a situation that they may regret. But rather than engage in a conversation about that you asked me if I was "fucking kidding" to me to fuck myself, and called me a jackass. If I am archaic and offensive, you are just a bully.

  • Dumily

    I've been happy to engage in conversations with people with whom I disagree especially on this site. But honestly, you give me the fucking creeps. Catch you never.

  • huh.

    That's a shame, because most of what I have done is agree with you. Something you may not have seen through all of your abusive ranting. We could have been friends, or at least worthy adversaries.

  • PoV Hector

    I never said that guy didn't put himself in that situation. Like Whoopi said, they both put themselves in that situation. The guy who got drunk and the girl. Both have responsibility.

  • Dumily

    "They were both drunk, she kinda put herself in that situation."

    You specifically single out the girl in this situation as putting herself there.

  • winosaurusrex

    There IS a conversation that needs to be had about the fine line. But rather than blaming it all on the girls who get trashed and raped, should we be teaching the boys that having sex with someone who clearly doesn't know whats going on it NOT ok? I mean this is only ONE scenario. And there are hundreds out there.

    I mean lets not start on the date rape drugs (how is it a girls fault she got drugged???) or forcible rapes or anything else. If we're just talking about a girl got super drunk and then raped, Why are we blaming her for being that drunk? was it a smart move? no. But why does the attacker not get any blame form a certain cross section of America (or the world)

    To be honest I believe that most of the victim blamers (in this one situation) have either raped someone like that, or have been raped like that but don't want to admit it. So they blame the victim.

  • profession: none, or starlet

    I was drunk off my face when I was raped. Drunker than I've ever been, before or since. Why was that? Because my rapist took care to get me that way. Over the course of several hours, he flattered, badgered, and manipulated me to keep drinking, prevented me from getting anything to eat, etc. This was only obvious in retrospect, because I trusted him, and because he had power over me.

    My being drunk was "not a smart move", I suppose, but it's hard to see what other move I could have made. I didn't get raped because I was drunk. I got raped because I had the misfortune to know and trust a rapist. I dare say a lot of people have the same story.

  • janeite1900

    I'm not sure what fine line you are talking about. As a woman, this is a huge line, like Wall of China line. Do men see this line differently?

  • winosaurusrex

    I am a woman. I do not agree with blaming the victim in anyway shape or form, but I also don't agree with drinking till you're incapable of making decisions and taking care of yourself. I feel the blame belongs to the rapist, not the victim.

    The fine line I'm talking about is the one here. At what point do we also ask victims to not put themselves in harms way? I think everyone one should be able to go out and live their lives, but drinking to the point of being that drunk is not healthy regardless of the rape issue, and women tend to need less to get there. To me the line is teaching women how to be responsible for themselves and their actions, while at the same time placing blame where it is due-on the attacker.

    But it is apparently an unpopular view, or those who share this view don't want to say it out loud.

  • janeite1900

    I think we are on the same page. I just don't like calling it a fine line. I have two daughters and a a son. What I will tell them sooner than I want (they are five and eight now): To daughters: Do not get drunk; do not get drunk enough to pass out and not be able to take care of yourself; do not put yourself in situations where bad things are likely to happen. If someone attacks you, do what you have to in order to survive, then tell me and I'll help you deal with it all. To son: never, ever assume a girl wants you to touch her. If she says she wants you to touch her, and then asks you to stop, stop. The default is no touching.

  • Dumily

    I think the issue is what "teaching women how to be responsible for themselves and their actions" entails. If a man got shitfaced and was beaten by someone he was talking to at a party, would you say "well, you probably shouldn't have put yourself in that situation"?

  • winosaurusrex

    I don't think ANYBODY should ever get shitfaced enough to put themselves in these situations-but it happens. However equating rape to being beat up is a horrible horrible example.

    I think we need to reeducate the population on the golden rule. Seriously, the world would be a much nicer place.

  • Dumily

    I don't think equating sexual assault with physical assault is that big of a leap. And my bigger point is how we react to sexual assault victims. We don't believe them, we try to minimize the assault, we react skeptically to their stories, and then we try to figure out how they could have prevented their own attacks. We don't do that with other victims.

  • Ozioma

    I once read something about the victim-blaming when it comes to rape, and how the onus is on women to make sure they don't get into a situation where they get assaulted (i.e, don't get drunk, don't wear revealing clothing, don't walk home alone after dark etc).

    What Whoopi - and every other person that advocates this - is saying can be boiled down to "Make sure the other girl gets raped."

  • huh.

    This argument is especially false. That's like saying locking your doors is making sure your neighbor gets robbed, or that carrying mace is a way to make sure someone else gets attacked. The point is that while there is no excuse, and it should not happen, there are bad people out there who will do bad things and there is no need to put yourself out there as potential prey. Rather if you don't get too drunk, you might be able to help the other girl or tell the guy who has had too many that it's time to call it a night.

  • Dumily

    Nope.

  • huh.

    How is this a nope?

  • Guest
  • I'll explain:

    It's a nope because your answer is dumb.

    [FINE. Here's why your answer is dumb: The message being given to men is not "don't get shit-faced at a bar because you might rape someone." In fact, the only curb-your-drinking message being given to men, really, is: you could get a DUI. It has nothing to do with if you lock or don't lock your house. Let's not deal with other situations. Let's deal with the fact that the message to women is: you aren't allowed an equally sloshy time. Which perpetuates the idea that those that DO take advantage of a sloshy time are sending a signal that they are "up for anything." It's unfair. It's misogynistic. And it blames the victim rather than the guy who raped her.

    But still: your answer was SUPER dumb.]

  • F'mal DeHyde

    So you're of the opinion that it's victim blaming to suggest women should be aware of their surroundings, drunk or sober. Who's super dumb again?

  • "Who's super dumb again?"

    I've got this one: You. No, I kid, I kid. You seem lovely and I celebrate your spirit. (Also, a very minor pedantical point: I said the answer was dumb; I don't know if the commentor is dumb or not.)

    Another pedantical point: the opinion you're assigning to me is one that I didn't give to myself. I didn't talk at all about being aware of surroundings or anything. Here's what I did talk about:

    The message being sent is, Women, you need to change your behavior so you don't get raped. This, to me, seems unfair because the message is being targeted on one demographic. The message NOT being sent is, Men, you need to change your behavior so you don't rape someone.

    Why are we giving different messages? It might be because we're willing to say just because a guy is drunk doesn't mean he will rape someone; but, when a woman gets raped, some of the first questions asked are, What were you wearing? Did you know Mr Polanski before you agreed to the blind date? What were you drinking?

    The continued advice appears to be, Men: Drink All You Want! It's adorable! We love you when you try to remember all the lyrics to "We Didn't Start the Fire" and your hugs last a little too long! But women are kept in this bubble of fear where, if they have a good time, they can't have a sustained good time because if they do then when violence is committed against them, they'll be blamed for it even though blame needs to continually be placed on the chicken-shitted shoulders of the asshole doing the raping.

    EVERYONE should be aware of his or her surroundings. And everyone should hear that message equally.

  • The Gypsy

    Wow, Mike. I think I love you.

  • Dumily

    "I celebrate your spirit."

    I'm taking this. This is mine now.

  • Amy Morgan

    *Swoon* Marry me? Or perhaps we could both go out and get shit faced together?

  • Dumily

    Right? I've got the Mister in real life, but maybe an internet hubby?

  • TacoBellRey

    I saw the same quote somewhere and it adds chilling perspective to an already awful subject.

  • BWeaves

    Yeah, and don't go to bed in your own house, because someone might break in and rape you, and it's your fault for having a vagina.

  • God Of Bal-Sagoth

    Oof. That's some pretty brutal truth right there. God damn.

  • Yocean

    Love your Snarkiness Courtney . LOVE. IT!

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