Pajiba

Aw, Daniel Carlson, you're my favorite marshmallow.

FUCK. YES.

First?

Got me interested in watching-- I always thought it was a cheesy Seventh Heaven type show.

Gorgeous review Dan. I fell hard for this show immediately...the writing, the acting, the wittiness, all of it completely sucked in both me and my friends. The relationship between Keith and Veronica is one that breaks my heart every time I throw in my dvds, their complete devotion to each other is so wonderfully portrayed by Bell and Colantoni.

A who'd of ever thought that I'd become a fan of Harry Hamlin?

"Say repressed homosexuality!"

love love love this show
beautifully written review Dan, you captured the reasons why VM is ten steps above the rest perfectly

and the reasons why season one has earned itself a spot in the coveted "Bethy moves overseas DVD case"

and can we say Jason Dohring shirtless??

YUM!!

Yes! So psyched when I saw this made the cut. I love getting people into this show, but it's extraordinarily difficult to watch with them, as they speculate on relationships and the possible murderer...
I got my 17-year-old brother into it, though he will claim that he truly likes it because "Kristen Bell is HOT." I do think that once you get past the first three or four episodes, it is impossible to stop watching.

Pajiba really pushed me into Netflixing this, and it is definitely one of the best seasons of TV I've ever seen. I was hooked, down to the 'oh my god' of several key moments and the 'rewind rewind I have to see that again!' of others.

Definitely some of the best written stuff out there.

A superb review of an excellent and unfortunately under-appreciated show. The use of lighting in the semi-frequent flashbacks is also impressive, apparently it's coordinated to match with the character's memories that it represents- ie Veronica's are blue, Logan's greent, etc. I too fell completely for this show and with a few specific exceptions (like alterna-prom) my favorite moments are in the first season.

I'm nearly in tears reading this. This show is so amazing and you've captured it perfectly.

"I always thought it was a cheesy Seventh Heaven type show."

Would it be too obvious for me to say "you thought wrong"? Well, you thought wrong. More wrong than M. Night Shittylan thinking he's the next Hitchcock.

Best written review ever? "You know what they say about that Veronica Mars: She's a marshmallow." Yes, indeed. One of my favorite seasons of TV ever.

So much love for this show! Where have you people been my whole life? I tried to spread the Word of Mars to friends only to get blank stares and responses like, "So she's like a bitchy Nancy Drew?". Fuck you. I hate your face. Have fun watching Flava Flav spread VD.

The writing is superb, smart, and funny as hell. And even though I love my dad, sometimes I find myself wishing he was shorter, balder, and whiter with a knack for the P.I business and a witty repartee with his gumshoe daughter.

I'm glad I didn't get to pick this show, because I couldn't have done it justice. Great work, DC.

We miss you, Veronica Mars. But you went out on top, so I suppose one can't complain too much. And we got more from it than we did Firefly.

If only the show had been called something other than "Veronica Mars," it might have gotten the ratings it deserved. Much like Antoinette, I assumed the show was just another teen drama until a friend recommended it. Just last week I told a friend of mine that they should rent the first season from Netflix. "Really? It's good?" he replied. "I figured it was like 'Felicity' or one of those other 'named after a character' dramas."

*Sigh*

It's just another case of judging a book by its cover. After all, "Twin Peaks" and "Laguna Beach" were both named after places.

Good review, but some stringent editing needed.

The 1st & 2nd season were so perfect. Great write up, Daniel. This just strengthens your position as my favourite Pajiba writer. Pajibater? Wriba?

Now we're doing 20 seasons?

Great review - I think you may have inspired me to plough through my DVD's again.

Was one of those shows I never watched when it aired, but heard great things after it had finished. After watching the first episode, my boyfriend and I didn't leave the house for the rest of the weekend so we could finish them all. Seriously addictive stuff - I'm now busy recruiting more Veronica fans in my group of friends. Never has my phone been so busy - no-one can wait for the next disc!

Fuck you. I hate your face.

HA!!!

Reading this just makes me wistful and has me thinking of what might have been.

I just rewatched season one on a whim last weekend and let me say, this review is darn near perfect.

If you're reading and you haven't seen the show yet, what are you doing still sitting here reading my silly comment? Mush, mush to your local DVD store! It's seriously addicting and seriously worth it in the end once you find out the answers to the mysteries, which isn't always the case with a show like this.

I haven't read the article or the comments yet for fear of spoilers. I'm about half way through the first season via Netflix and am IN LOVE. All praise I've read on this site is totally warranted and I am in the beginning throws of a serious girl crush on Ms. Bell. So, thanks to you guys for helping me find this gem.

"Through a jaded, nourish narration"

... I agree that Kristen Bell is thin, but how about "noirish." I also noticed "prating" instead of "praying" and worst of all, gasp, you're missing the umlaut over the O in Blue Oyster Cult. I'm shocked!

To conclude: Veronica Mars rocked my socks from minute one. Glad to see it on the list.

I'm now complete toast when it comes to Veronica Mars now.
I've always resisted this show. Even with more than a year of avid Pajiba reading under my belt I still resisted.
I just can't do it anymore. I simply HAVE to watch this show now.

My significant other roped me into watching VM when we first started dating and I sat spellbound through the last two-thirds of the second glorious season. We Netflix'd the first so that my ignorance was quickly corrected and even though I am indeed male and without a father figure, I was even more captivated by the relationship of Veronica and Keith than I ever thought I could be. Absolutely perfect, honestly. What more could be said about it that hasn't already been so fabulously spewed forth before I hit the "post" message button?

That said, one of the biggest injustices of a television show that I have ever felt, and one we feel deserved to be treated to a Jericho-style backlash, was canceling the series mid-season... Yes, the show began reaching into the mini-mysteries way too much to keep the overall arc as satisfying as the first two seasons, but I was absolutely floored as the last episode ended and there wasn't anything CLOSE to a proper send-off... for shame, for shame.

I would've been all sorts of pissed off if Veronica Mars hadn't made the list. But I should've known better.

I actually spent an hour trying to convince a friend of mine that this show was/is so amazing. She finally broke down and watched the first disc of season one, and now she's hooked like I told her she would be.

AAAARGH!!!! I have been resisting this series for years...from watching the commecials, I knew I'd love it! I don't need more shows to idolize! And yet, in one fell swoop...you've destroyed the wall I built up! I'll never be the same until I watch every last episode of this! DAMN YOU!

Resistance is futile Shadows. Give in the the Mars love, it's delicious.

Hahaha....Mars love is delicious, Julie? Brilliant. I'd propose all over again if I could. Would you happen to have the dvds for me to borrow? And airfare to fly up there to watch it?

It tastes like marshmallows.

Hee! All three seasons...check. Frosty beverages...check. Roofies to make them tastier...check. Airfare...well, if you wanted to watch VM with me that badly you would steal an angry llama and ride it here.

Roofie coladas?!?!? I'm so there.

...what? Aren't they those mints?

Awww reading this review just made me realize how much I miss this show.

Gonna have to rent the dvd's and lock myself away for a weekend!

Silly Julie, angry llamas can't be stolen. They must be WOOED. I don't doubt Shadow's abilities in that arena.

So you're saying forgo the netflixs, whip out the credit card and just invest, yes? VM has been on my list o' shit to jump into forever, and I just didn't know anyone who thought anything of it at all, let alone recommended it, aside from the obvious fanwank love here, on occasion. You would think I would learn to just trust in godopus that you freaks won't steer me wrong.

Really?!? Must everyone pee on the review parade by correcting spelling and grammar? Can't I have one moment to appreciate the FLAWLESS review of one of my favorite shows without some pretentious a-hole thinking they could have done it better?

lilianna28, a while back Amazon was selling the first and second seasons for $15 each.

I had a fun Christmas giving bonanza with that. Keep an eye out, they might have another sale sometime.

Beautifully said, lilianna28...it's because of this review that I will have trouble paying rent this month...since I know I must by the deliciousness of this series, to have and to hold, for all time...

Llama's are pansies anyway. My pet alpaca can get me there by this weekend! And I don't woo llamas...they come when I call. It's the Godtopus-given birthright of all peruvians...

Ha, lili, I will keep that in mind.

And I don't woo llamas...they come when I call. It's the Godtopus-given birthright of all peruvians...

I. Love it.

I so want to go home and watch the season 1 finale right now.

Yeah, apparently they have raised the count to 20 seasons. Probably a good idea. Too many good things were going to be squeezed out otherwise.

I also decided to Netflix Veronica Mars after reading of the Pajiba love, and I blazed through all 3 seasons in a couple of months. My husband said it was my new hobby. This show is awesome-I heartily agree with everyone here. I just finished the 3rd season last week and I felt a loss that it was over and I would never know how many things ended up. Great, great show.

It's unlikely I'll be able to go through all the shows on this list for logistical reasons, but for me the measure of greatness for these shows is how I can not only get ladyhelmet interested enough to watch one episode, but to keep her hooked right through to the end. She was already in on Simpsons, quickly got hooked on Battlestar (and isn't thrilled with having to wait till January for new episodes), just finished Firefly/Serenity at 3 in the morning last night, and was pissed to see Veronica get cancelled. I loved VM for the writing and the character interaction, but I think one thing true of VM, BSG, and Firefly (despite their settings) is the accessible, realistic humanity of their characters and how they interact and react to circumstances around them. Veronica didn't have tonnes of special effects to get lost in, or rampaging Cylons to advance the story, but managed to stay sharp and well-paced due to the characters. I'll respectfully dissent with the quality of this review, as I think Veronica's obituary was better done, but the end result is the same. This was a quality show, prematurely ended, that was a refreshing breath of air in a fetid swamp of half-assed ideas groaning under shit writing, lazy production and poor planning, and contrived settings, providing a vehicle for douchebaggery of the worst order. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that these best 20 shows should make up the course material and syllabus content for a mandatory "how to do memorable and great TV 101" seminar for aspiring TV producers and writers.


I could never forget you, Veronica Mars. You are sorely missed.

My sister has no idea how grateful I am that she got me addicted to this brilliantly funny, touching, and clever show instead of Smallville. That week that we flew through the first season dvds, her watching me sit with my mouth agape at the twists and practically cry many a time was one of the greatest bonding experiences we ever had.

Plus it stopped me from watching Lana Lang be thrown into danger every week and get knocked out just in time for Superman to use his powers to save her ass, then end with them standing in a barn pining over each other every week. That's something I'll always be thankful for.

"Whip cream fight at the sorority house!!!"

Thank you thank you THANK YOU for finally putting this up here. I love Veronica Mars, and season one is by far the most spectacularly moving and has the best season-long arc.

And yes, this is my over-the-moon face.

Squee! I turn into a fangirl when it comes to this show. The writing is spot on, this is truly one of the most engaging, witty shows I've watched. Apart from a few characters' wooden acting (I'm looking at you Duncan), VM can do no wrong. This was a series that rewarded you for paying attention, the continuity is unrivaled and the chemistry between the characters (Veronica and Keith, Veronica and Logan, Veronica and Don Lamb, Veronica and Vinny, Veronica and Wallace) is just the best.

Aaaand, I'm spent.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Veronica managed to give me hundreds of clever quotes for away messages, and one that ended up being my senior quote. I had a list of at least five to choose from, my first runner up being: "If I ever die, do me a favor. Go on Oprah and tell the world that I loved kittens." My parents *grumble grumble* thought it was too morbid, so I went with the tamer, more "graduation-ey,"
"Think back 18 years. Small, blonde baby. Born ready." Of course, the delivery was one of my favorite parts of this moment, but it was fun all the same.

The ongoing Veronica Mars love on this website is the number one piece of evidence that you all are off your fucking rocker.

Unmentioned by the review, in the pilot episode she also tampers with evidence and commits between 4-5 felonies. The character that leads the motorcycle gang is simply ludicrous, he's about as genuine in that role as the guys who lead motorcycle gangs in Annette Funicello movies. The noir-ish components of the show are practically a slap in the face to those who are actual fans of that genre. You want noir go watch Sunset Boulevard or Touch of Evil again. Calling "Veronica Mars" noir is like calling "Welcome Home Roscoe Jenkins" comedy; it shows signs of going that direction but fails so abymsally in the execution

The addition of Veronica Mars is going to be something that you'll look at on this list 10 years from now and say "Dear God, we lost ALL objectivity in the gigantic fan-boy wank off that is pajiba."

In all honesty the entire list has serious problems. Why even say the best episodes of the last 20 years if no consideration was going to be given to shows from the 1988-1998 time period? The level to which this list is back-loaded on the last 10 years (hell, even the last 5) is embarassing. The number of seasons on the list that occurred before 1998 is exactly 4 (Murder One Season One, Simpsons Season 4, Twin Peaks, Larry Sanders Show) out of the 14 that have been debuted. The number of seasons that have occurred in the last 5 years is 5(Arrested Development, Veronica Mars, Friday Night Lights, The Wire, and Firefly). Outrageous. Especially when you consider that it seems that citing Lost as one of the final seasons appears inevitable to up the count even higher and there was a writer's strike in the last 5 years meaning that there was proportionately even less material to choose from.

That this will inevitably push off far more deserving shows from the last 20 years is a damn shame. Consider: The Sopranos probably should be on the list multiple times, the Boondocks Season One (apparently not in consideration because it deals with urban blacks instead of vampires, ridiculous teenage detectives, or aliens), Northern Exposure Season 3 (multiple Emmy-winner along with several individual episodes that are fairly considered "greats"), My So-Called Life (which would completely own Veronica Mars in everything but the mystery factor, and the Mystery Factor is VM's weak link), Murphy Brown (either Season 3 or 4, I can't remember which Season was better), Seinfeld Season 4, Frasier (another multiple seasons contender, it is the one of the most award-winning shows of all time after all), Ending Seasons of "The Cosby Show" and "Cheers". Fuck even Friends deserves consideration given its cultural impact. And if you wanted honest emotional writing I'm not sure how this show could even touch Freaks and Geeks.

Truth be told, you all are creating the list of "20 seasons it is ok to like if you're a hipster." If this was "20 shows pajiba loves" it would be one thing but you're claiming these as the "best" and that means you have some responsibility of objectivity.

Pajiba won my heart almost exactly a year ago when it reviewed "Angus" favorably even though the movie has never been released on DVD and was promptly forgotten despite being a true teen classic of its era. Everything that has happened since then has been in service to a gigantic circle jerk where everyone compliments themselves on what good taste they have while completely forgetting your beloved Joss Whedon programs are mere footnotes in the history of television and film.

It's time for Pajiba to go to rehab and remember what's actually good and distinguish that from what it's popular to like right now. Veronica Mars is in the latter category instead of the former.

There are many things to refute about your above comment Sir Ass, but I will let those better than I at articulating such thoughts have the pleasure.

Just to say that I don't believe it has ever been "popular right now to like" Veronica Mars. It is in it's own right an often over-looked show and one greatly enjoyed by many readers of this site.

Perhaps the more recent TV shows just look much better in comparison to what has been dominating our television screens in the past 5 years, reality TV, riduculous "game shows", VHI/MTV, etc.
It might be a perspective thing, highly superior compared to what the other options are.

I started watching this show out of boredom when it was all new and shiny...then I got my friend hooked and man those were some beautiful winters. I would even sometimes forget my 3 guy flatmates from hell...fucking bastards used to leave sweaty football gear in the kitchen! Oh and you should see the stuff they grew in their unwashed cooking pots...some of it was radioactive and sentient...but I digress, go Mars! Thanks DC.

Bethy, in reponse to the "it's not popular to like veronica mars" comment I will merely point to the above 40 + comments on this website as well as the multiple calls on the other TV episode threads for the inclusion of Veronica Mars. While it didn't achieve any significant ratings, it is undeniably a "cool" thing to like in the hipster and fan-boy communities, vouched for by idols of those groups such as Joss Whedon, Kevin Smith, and Ed Brubaker.

I think the great weight of popular opinion is in favor of the show since its cancellation. It is undeniably a cult favorite and DVD hit (it has been in the Top 100 Amazon.com DVD sales list multiple times). It seems the only weight behind it being "overlooked" is that it had bad ratings. But lets be honest, it was on UPN and the CW and the shows surrounding it weren't exactly great lead-ins.

In the internet and DVD age the ratings aren't really a great measure for if the show is "popular" or not 3 to 4 years after the show has been cancelled. Fuck family guy is arguably the most popular comedy in the country right now and it got cancelled years ago before strong DVD sales made it come back. Firefly produced a movie based on strong DVD sales after it failed to make it a full season on Television. VM is in the same domain, its cult status after cancellation is such that its the new "flavor of the month" among the crowd that likes to feel independent.

"Just to say that I don't believe it has ever been "popular right now to like" Veronica Mars. It is in it's own right an often over-looked show and one greatly enjoyed by many readers of this site."

But does that make it 'the best'? I don't agree with everything in Sirkickyass's comment, but I admit I cringed upon seeing yet another fanboy/fangirl show make the list.

And frankly it is popular to champion shows like VM or Freaks & Geeks due to their underdog underwatched status, regardless of whether they qualify for the title Pajiba is handing out- it wasn't like either of them were ignored by mainstream critics during their run. We hold these shows closer than mainstream hits because they have a more cult-like standing, a hipster secret handshake if you will. Meeting someone who's seen every episode of Seinfeld or The Sopranos isn't difficult; someone who stayed with VM or Firefly to the bitter end holds a certain cred, esp. in this crowd.

Not that there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's fair to question whether this is a list of best vs. a list of favorites.

"You wanna know how I lost my virginity? So do I." For some reason, this is the moment I realised I was watching a genuinely good show - I had bought the DVDs after hearing rave reviews of it, but this was when I started to believe. It's just such a bitter and genuinely shocking moment, and brave for what is essentially a "teen" show (though I don't mean that at all pejoratively).

Truth be told, you all are creating the list of "20 seasons it is ok to like if you're a hipster." If this was "20 shows pajiba loves" it would be one thing but you're claiming these as the "best" and that means you have some responsibility of objectivity.

First off, since when have "Sex and the City" or "Firefly" been the au courant hipster shows? Secondly, when is any aspect of reviewing ever objective? All art is entirely subjective, and if you don't like the tastes of the reviewers here, the onus is on you to find reviewers you do like. Incidentally, what you want isn't "objectivity", it's subjectivity that you agree with. It's complete jackassery to say that you like the site because it gave a good review to an obscure movie that you and few others liked, then to bitch that they're complimenting TV shows that they and few others liked.

VM is in the same domain, its cult status after cancellation is such that its the new "flavor of the month" among the crowd that likes to feel independent.

While you are probably right, the writers here at Pajiba have been expounding Veronica Mars' goodness (superiority? awesome show-ness? I was not kidding about not being articulate) since its first introduction as a television series. So while this list may seem biased (and what opinion is not? this list, hell, this whole site is after all, an opinion), I don't think it is fair to concluded that VM made the list purely because it is a "flavor of the month" or a recent "cult classic".

And I will bet you my cat that The Sopranos makes the list and $10 that My So-Called Life does, as there have already been glowing reviews written about both these shows, as well as multiple others that do not fall under the " vampires, ridiculous teenage detectives, or aliens" catagory, as you put it.

Oh well forgive us for not liking the second season of One Tree Hill, I'm sure it was fantastic. And hey, maybe they'll do a review of it some time. Have hope. And we like VM and Firefly because they're GOOD. Now if you disagree with that, please say so instead of trying to insult us for our tastes/opinions.

And while it would have been hugely risky, I really liked the setup for the never to be filmed Season 4 we got to see on the DVD release. Veronica wisecracking her way through her first year out of Quantico would have rocked.

To Bethy: Considering they had to increase the allotment of shows to 20 from 15 it clearly indicates that when selections were initially made Farscape, Buffy, Firefly, and Friday Night Lights were making the cut on a shorter list. Can you say the same thing about the Sopranos? If anything if they do get eventually included it's going to end up looking like they expanded the list to try and make it slightly more respectable.

To Joker: I outlined some specific problems with VM above: In particular, the number of criminal offenses she commits while solving mysteries. If you also believe the shows I mentioned are on par with One Tree Hill you're probably disqualified from any discussion of what constitutes good television.

As per Firefly. I actually do really like the show. It's excellent and has a unique vibe in its tie together of Western and Science Fiction themes. Top 15 *cough* 20 of the last 20 years? Not a chance in hell.

Lets put it this way, I'd love to see an official pajiba defense of why certain notable shows were omitted at the end of the whole thing. It's going to be hilarious to see them try to defend Veronica Mars against Northern Exposure for example. Anyone who's seen Northern Exposure knows that one is a technical crush.

I actually loved Veronica Mars before I even found this site. It's up there with My So-Called Life as the two TV series I can watch over and over. I saw it randomly on MTV a couple days after it debuted on the WB and thought it was good. I hadn't seen ads for it or heard about it at all actually. No one I knew watched it until months later after I begged them to start. I'm not trying to act like I'm cool for liking it, but I'm saying that I suspect for many fans this is how they started watching it. So few people DO watch it that when you meet someone else who does/did watch it you can't HELP but get excited to finally have someone to talk to about it.

I started watching this show alone without knowing a single thing about it. Pajiba's love for it certainly did not contribute to my love for it, and I think acting like the fans of Pajiba think they're cool because they like V. Mars is a bit unfair to those who enjoy the show on its own merits but also happen to be fans of Pajiba.

So even though i know no one will read this cause I'm posting so late but on a total personal note Jason Dohring was my very first boyfriend hehe

we took acting classes together way back in the day and would sit next to each other in class and hold hands and talk on the phone every night. we had to do an excercise one week were we had to create a "musical scene" and two people had to sing acapella songs to each other...he sang Guns and Roses "November Rain" to me...*sigh*

Although I haven't seen Veronica Mars yet (this along with Alias was sacrificed to the "I watch too much TV!" purge of the early '00s) and can't comment on whether or not it should be on this list, I do agree with Sirkickyass's observation that this list does lean a little heavily toward the later years. I believe that it has to do with the fact that in this century TV has gotten better at serialized shows with extended story arcs, which if done properly yield the most layered and satisfying storytelling possible. I also thought about what earlier shows I would add onto this list and came up with Frasier, Murphy Brown, and X-Files (I didn't think about Freaks and Geeks because it BETTER be on this list). No specific seasons yet because I haven't done any research - I was literally thinking about it in the car on my way to work this morning. I do think that the best of the classic sitcom format (Frasier for me) and the best of non-serialized drama (haven't thought of one yet, unless X-Files or Freaks and Geeks count) should be represented on this list.

That said, Sirkickyass's tone and general attitude are very douchebaggery. Fuck off, man.

Just wanted to add this in since it came up after I posted my comment. SirKickyAss - you said TWICE that one reason for this show to not be on this list is because Veronica commits felonies. Well so did pretty much everyone on the Sopranos. No one every claimed that Veronica was an angel - in fact she is meant to be flawed with often suspect means of reaching her ends. Means that her father chewed her out on when he found out about them. Means that her father and her community would surely have disapproved of. She was a teenager and this to me was actually a very accurate reflection of how teens have an invincible/rules don't apply to me attitude. Veronica was under it all a TEEN and did what she thought was best to deal with injustices she perceived. I'm not saying her criminal acts were right... in fact I think they are a great characterization and show more depth to Veronica and the show.

They certainly shouldn't discount the SHOW as a good SHOW, considering the many other felonies we see main characters committing in other renowned as great shows.

Joker, that comment would be relevant if Sirkickyass didn't make a list of "better shows than VM that will be bumped by its inclusion." One Tree Hill, a show about young vanilla-white teens dealing with turgid dramatics and trying to emulate styles of film far, far above what they ever can hope to achive, has more in common with VM than does The Boondocks, by the way.

"We like them because they are GOOD" isn't reponsive to "TOP TWENTY of the last TWENTY YEARS good?".

Many people point out that these lists are subjective inherently -- fair, but either:
a)Rename the list to reflect subjectivity ("our favorite tv shows of the last 20 years")
b)Narrow the goals to make exclusion of well-known GOOD shows more palatable (like the "underappreciated gems" lists, for example: "the best niche tv shows of the last 20 years")
c)Accept responsibility for defending the list as unequivocally, objectively (or as nearly-objective as human minds can get) good shows. The reviewers have written, mostly, to reflect c. Certainly the inclusion of SATC argues against the idea that the shows are meant to illuminate hidden gems (SATC being an in-your-face stinker).

I think lists that attempt some form of objectivity use generally-accepted criteria, and perhaps a more lengthy description of the criteria used would have made this list less nigh-inexplicable.

The three criteria that seem to be generally used are: gigantic critical acclaim (such that a claim universality feels more justifiable), capture/creation of a significant cultural moment (Seinfeld, Friends, SATC), inauguration of a new genre (that is, shows that forced a seismic shift in the industry itself). (For example, as nearly as I can tell, Criterion collection is founded on these principles in the context of movies).

In this context, it's hard to justify VM.

wicked jealous SashaCA2, I have long and detailed daydreams about Jason Dohring....mmmmmmm

and Sir Ass, if you believe any of the writers here at Pajiba do anything to seem more "cool" or "hipster" or to be "more respectable", you are obviously off your rocker.
opinions are indivudual, everything written here is an opinion, and just because you don't agree with what is said, does not make it wrong.

PS I am pretty sure Joker was being sarcastic regarding One Tree Hill

PSS since when is commiting a criminal offense in a television show a mark against it or a problem with it? and this coming from the guy who says that multiple seasons of The Sopranos should be on the list. bit hypocritical, don't ya think?

PSS if you look quickly at your name, it looks like Sir Sticky Ass, just sayin

I love the ridiculous conceit that Sir Kickywhatever maintains, that one show, based solely on his opinion, is unequivocally, unquestionably BETTER than another. it's one thing to have some discourse about the list - hell, that's probably the point. but to dig your heels in and state that the shows YOU like are empirically better is not only arrogant and obnoxious, it's insane. nothing needs to be justified to you, and any lists will always be disagreed with. you want a list of shows that YOU feel are the best, by all means write one. but to storm in and call this one wrong is just dumb.

Oh come on Bethy. Tony Soprano is a violent criminal. The viewer's relationship to him is problematic; we know right from the start that he is a sociopath, an evil man, and if we "root" for him, we become vile. The show presents an interesting, wholly unsympathetic exploration of Tony's operation calculated to sicken the audience with the banal brutality of death and harm. The killings take a long time and are messy -- viewers have to think about what happens to the body. Beatings are noisy and humiliating, and the viewer often casts their allegiance with the rather-innocent victim. Tony is sympathetic, kind of, ONLY insofar as anyone who has done terrible things (even at a micro level) might see Tony's guilt and lack of guilt as a parable of human sin generally.

Tell me, please, that Keith "Don't go sleuthing, Nancy!" Mars' verbal rebukes when Veronica did things like DESTROYING A TAPE OF EVIDENCE rise to anywhere near the same level of audience alienation (I'm citing the worst, in my mind, of the offenses -- I confess I only netflix'd the first disk and couldn't take any more. The tape thing, by the way, made me totally crazy perhaps because at the time I was taking Evidence; also there was no real punishment or regret or problematization of that event, which I know because I was looking REALLY HARD).

If you can't see the difference between crimes committed on the Sopranos and crimes committed on VM you need to have someone read the following explanation out loud to you.

The Sopranos are ANTI-HEROES and Veronica Mars is supposed to be THE HERO. Veronica Mars is commits felonies to investigate petty crimes and implicates local police officers in bad acts, for this we are supposed to be on her side and the show treats this unproblematically. The genius of the Sopranos is that that you're on the Mobsters side BECAUSE they are despicable people, one of the genius elements of the show is how much you care for people that are truly evil in many ways. The very nature of the show deals with the problematization of the fact that these are Bad people that you can't take your eyes off of.

VM is completely unproblematic in the way it deals with Veronica's behavior and celebrates her as a crime solver when she's a crime-commiter. Frequently the crimes she commits (tampering with evidence, grand theft, implication of officials, etc) are worse than the crime or problem she investigates. This is a reason there's some severe philosophical tension in episodes of VM. Quite apart from magnifying that tension, the Sopranos is almost entirely about exploring that tension.

Bethy, playing the opinion card doesn't make sense when they're passing it off as "the best of." That's an objective list. Georgia outlined several ways to solve this problem above.

Finally, two more shows that are inexcusable if left off the list because they mark large shifts in the way their genre was handled on television: Law and Order Season 1, E.R. Season 1.

1) to claim destroying a tape of evidence and brutal and violent murder are comparable seems a bit of a stretch (not that I think the former is right or justifiable)

2) Veronica is not always a sympathetic character. She is, however, a relatable one, everybody has their faults and makes bad decisions. And that is where the show's strenghts lie.

3) Veronica does get more than a slight verbal reproach from her father for her actions, and quite often too.

4) Sir Ass never states that his problem with the show is that Veronica commits felonies and that audience is supposed to believe she was right in doing so, that is one thing. Intead he only states that she commits them. His words seem to imply that it is the felonies themselves that turn him off the the show. Which is why I questioned his condeming of such actions on VM, and not on The Sopranos, which he is much more of a fan of.

5) to be fair to everybody else, it is not his opinion I am agruing, everybody has a right to that, it is the way he approached it. He responded to a review that was intelectually written about a TV show that the reviewer obviously thought was one of the best seasons of the past 20 years with insults and an air of self-importance. He could have stated that he disagreed and rationally reasoned out why, but he chose to back up his point with cheap shots at the reviewer, the site and fans of the show. I suppose I just have no patience for people like that.

Northern Exposure? Your great VM beater is Northern Exposure? Really?

See, thing is, you rail about a 'responsibility' where there is none. It is a website. I website where a bunch of folks typically wank off on shit they like. The proprietors have no responsibility to us. THey just put their stuff out there, and if folks bite, then they are more than welcome.

And I congratulate you on your induction to the Pajiba Hall of Fuckknobs Who Can't Live With The Fact That People Might Like Something They Don't. Here is my question to you: if the 40+ comments on how great VM is don't matter to you, then what in blazes makes you think your opinion (expressed in full-on asshat format) matters to us? What makes your treatises on the validity of this list so goddamn necessary for us unknowing masses to ponder over?

If you didn't like the show, fine; that is your deal. But this insistence on insulting those who do, especially backed by weak-ass reasoning (yeah, she broke some laws, but IT IS A GODDAMN TV SHOW) and superfluous opinionating and nothing else is getting fucking tiresome.

If it is that big of a dealbreaker, if you feel you just HAVE to protest, if you have a burning in your heart that is so great, if you are so offended by what amounts to an unordered and fairly random selection of popular and not-so-popular TV shows by one of a billion or so similar lists on a trillion or so similar sites, then either start your own list. It would no doubt be superior to this one, until some asshat complains about how you left off Animaniacs or something and immediately invalidates the whole thing; that is what you were posting for, right?

And no, I am not advocating a STFU policy against those who disagree. I disagree plenty with this site, and they are doozies. I am advocating it for those who act like their parents raised them to be disrespectful socially-stunted douchenozzles who can't express themselves without denigrating someone else and their opinions.

If you can't just say "I don't like it" without treating everyone else like idiots, then you simply don't need to be here. That kind of negativity is unnecessary and beneath most Pajibans.

It is sad that we can have relatively civil discussion on religion and ID and such, but a review on a canceled TV show the author happened to like incites so much vitriol.

In conclusion: fuck you, Sirkickyass. Fuck you long, fuck you hard, fuck you in your goddamn arrogant ear. Anyone else who doesn't like VM: feel free to disagree, just do so with a modicum of respect.

And I really don't give a fuck about your response, because unless it is an apology for being an shithead, I am not going to allow my calm to be wrecked by you so that you can feel a bit bigger in the pants.

And to answer the questions: no, I do not respect Sirkickyass right now, and my comment would be much more cordial if he were nicer.

Georgia, on the other hand, expressed the concerns with at least assuming that the VM defenders have some intelligence. But I have to disagree with the "criminal acts" reason for not liking the show. I can think of at least 10 incidents in several series that would constitute a crime.

As far as cultural touchstones being put on the list and what not, let us keep in mind that American Idol, Law & Order, and CSI would fit into that category. And since we can't discriminate against shows based on opinion, by your logic they should be considered on equal footing as shows like The Sopranos and such.

Hey, Sir Ass, I don't think any of the shows you consider 'overlooked' are shows that Pajiba has actually... overlooked.

If we're on '20 of the last 20' there's no reason to think it won't go to '30 of the last 20' ad infinitum. A lot of the shows you mention - including Sopranos - aren't exactly overlooked on Pajiba.

And just for the record, I'm a mouthbreathing cavedwelling anime CHUD. Practically the anti-hipster.

Have fun with the two... twenty minute hate?

I love it when someone tries to take the high road and calls the original post mean and then includes a really long list of fuck yous. Sir: When you demand to be treated like an intellectual and then respond with the above all I can do is snicker.

I would invite anyone to take a look at my initial post and compare tone with Vermillion's response and make up your own mind about that one.

Also I think Georgia, casette, and I have essentially all made the same point: the list is no longer a "best of" list it is a "Pajiba's favorites" list being passed off as a "best of" list.

Has anyone really answered that yet?

Twig: I recognize Pajiba has probably talked about those shows before. I'm not exactly an everyday reader. I'm merely saying that it's silly if those shows are kicked off any "Best of" list by Veronica Mars and Farscape.

To use an analogy it would be like compiling a "Top 100" movies list like the AFI does and leaving out Sunset Boulevard in favor of L.A. Confidential. Is L.A. Confidential a "bad" movie? No, in fact it's pretty good. It's just not Top 100. Similarly is FireFly bad? No, it's just not Top 20.

If the list does get expanded as you suggest I anxiously await renewing this debate when Scrubs is listed before The Practice in the 40-50 range.

Also, you're a CHUD? Is it smelly underground? Do you eat hobos? Is it really canibalism if you eat humans but you yourself are only a humanoid?

Sirkicky, I have a hard time disagreeing with some of your points, but a harder time with how you make them. Yes, some of those shows you list were genre-shifting or otherwise seminal in some way, or significant to a large number of people. And I'm not fully opposed to the need to support an entry to the exclusion of another candidate in a purported objective list. Sure the writers could have been a little more objective, but this isn't a professional (sorry guys) outfit where there's an editorial board with daily meetings and enforced compliance with a standard. These are different writers getting a small number of contributions to a list they no doubt have different feelings about. Should we have everyone vote for the top 20 over 20, then have columns written based on that? Your complaint may have some validity, but its implementation among a crowd of casual contributors is I feel unrealistic.


Now, as to your manners. Frankly I don't care for how you come down to us from on high with these complaints - I've seen French waiters with a better attitude. Being (arguably, or at least partially) right doesn't entitle you to being a jerk. How about you make us your justified list of top 20 over 20, and then the grounds for exclusion for the current entries on this ongoing list. Don't just bitch about what you don't like - any mouthbreather who can't believe "According to Jim" didn't make the list can do that - give us a better alternative or a comprehensive set of criteria.


So, either way, I find you abrasive but you make some good points. But lay off on Veronica's misdeeds - it's getting old.

are you saying that you would be completely and utterly satisfied over a simple semantic change? if the word "favorite" were substituted for "best"?

isn't that a little nuts? I mean, I guess my fundamental point is that, barring more hallowed institutions like the AFI, when a site such as this posts a list called "the best," it seems to me that said list comes with the understanding that their idea of the best are the shows they don't like. what if none of the writers LIKED Northern Exposure. are they still to be criticized for leaving it off?

Lordhelmet:

In "Harvey" Jimmy Stewart observes:

"In this world you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant. Well for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me."

Maybe someday the internet will be so mature. As for now I'll stick with being right even if it means I'm a jerk at the same time.

Besides, that Elwood P. Dowd was a lush. =)

I thought the reasons not to like the show were plentiful, and are essentially, if brutally, indicated by Sirkickyass -- I only listed the evidence tampering thing as one which made my soul cringe in pain (though I think vigilantism is bullshit generally).

But really, I think the larger, more interesting issue here is the question of whether a list, limited in scope, purporting to an objective "best of" is merely based in opinion, or whether there should be some level of responsibility in the choices, with a clearly defined rubric and a sense, at least, of wider universality.

You're right, of course, Vermillion, that one billion website have fanciful lists of nonsense. But I think there's kind of a backhanded insult in the way that you characterize Pajiba as basically just the wanker site that happens to appeal to you. Not to be all Tyra Banks and interrogate "why you're here," but really -- if this is a meritorious site with interesting, valid, good things to say that we can assert probably should be said to the wider word if only they would unstop their ears and listen, then holding the site to a higher standard is an expression of respect. I think it's in line with this respect to say, Have a justifiable list.

I outlined above the basic criteria that seem to go into the lists of respectable sources, and make sense because they elevate a list beyond subjective opinion. I also said, as did SirKickyass, that subjective opinion should be its own list, and is fine if that's the listed criteria.

The WHOLE POINT of the "best of list" is that it is DISTINCT from the "my faves" list -- and not just because you can compose an explanation, because most people can explain why their faves are full of awesome. Rather, the best of list claims some element of universal truth, that of hundreds of shows produced in 20 years, people who think about this a lot and study it officially or unofficially can pretty much agree that these shows are the standouts.

Georgia, a show can be a standout for a variety of reasons, good or bad. Shall we sort by genre too now? American Idol, Amazing Race, hell, even Jeopardy and Who Wants to Be A Millionaire all changed the face of their genres (as did the various Star Treks to varying degrees, but Lord knows not many of them were excellent). If we want to be super-objective, there's the Emmys and associated awards. I'm not seeing a list from you either, sister. Anyone can bitch, let's see your solution - and please, point out how your subjective opinion is completely removed from the equations.

Sirkicky, I never said you were right. I said you had some good points. And fun as it may be to get to be Gregory House from the privacy of your cubicle or living room, it can damage your credibility, audience receptiveness, and doesn't win you any fans (although you clearly don't care about that last one). I'm still not seeing an alternative list or comprehensive criteria, so right now this is all just a bunch of inadequately supported whining which any dumbass joe can do. Please, if you're so good and right, enlighten us fully, don't be so coy. Put up or shut up.

I've already listed through various posts here about 12 or 13 shows that should be on a number of lists. I'm not going to go through the exercise of writing a top 20 list with full explanations when that project is taking the Pajiba writers the better part of the Spring and Summer to do. Asking me to do that here is unreasonable and also flies in the face of the whole point of criticism in the first place. After all, Martin Lawrence could easily tell Pajiba "Fuck off, YOU make a comedy" and he wouldn't have said a damn thing to defend Roscoe Jenkins.

As far as standards I think the ones Georgia outlined were pretty sensible and underly the base premises for most reputable "best of" lists. Using those criteria one could easily make arguments for any number of the shows that have been selected but the proof is in the shows that are being excluded that Farscape, Firefly, VM and a few others simply can't beat measured on those metrics.

I also generally disagree with the point that Pajiba is some loose coalition of writers without editorial and control and shouldn't be held to standards as a result. They've gone and given themselves titles like "editor" and "publisher" which in my mind says they're trying to pass themselves off as a reputable operation.

Also in regards to the reality shows and game shows that you mentioned I think it has always been an implicit (albiet unstated) assumption of this list that we're dealing with serialized fiction. Admittedly not restricted in scope in Pajiba's title but I think your point you're going after to attack Georgia is really a point against the lack of specificity with which Pajiba has defined this project as well.

Rather, the best of list claims some element of universal truth, that of hundreds of shows produced in 20 years, people who think about this a lot and study it officially or unofficially can pretty much agree that these shows are the standouts.

I am still not certain how the above is not a form of opinion.

Quality cannot be proven or stated as factual. Only as prefered by an individual or group of individuals, which is in fact an opinion.

If we were talking popularity, that would be different. Popularity can be proven through ratings/polls/etc. But popular does not quaility make, as we all know.

And I like to think that the reviewers on this site do think about television a lot and therefore are qualified to draft up an unofficial "Best Of" list. They have pretty much agreed that the shows they have reviewed are stand-outs. Commenters have agreed or disagreed, as commenters are want to do when presented with an opinion.

And while I personally have not agreed with every TV show chosen for this list (and will personally start a vendetta against Pajiba if Sports Night is left out, just a heads up), I have no desire to throw personal insults or barbs at the reviewers for that. (not that you have Georgia, I am more talking about a certain gentleman whose "name" begins and ends with an "s")

Hey, so, anyone seen BarbadoSlim?

Nothing? Huh.

Ummmm... Llamas! Murdertank™! Zombie Attack!

No... well...ok. Let's see. OOOH! DRINKING! That is something we can all get behind. Here's what I've found so far- go ahead and look for em, it's like the where's waldo of comments!

•Someone complains of elitism

•A comment exceeds three paragraphs

•Someone claims to be "first"

•A commenter references Firefly or Serenity

•A commenter uses a shortened or acronymic version of another commenter's name

•An offended comment

•A commenter corrects the reviewer's spelling or grammar

Shit. That is NOT ENOUGH to get this crab ass party drunk. You force me to go here people:

If the role of Veronica Mars had only been played by Lindsay Lohan, a true •visionary•, it would have been worth a place on the "best of" list. It is obviously due to the rampant misogyny of Dan and the rest of the Pajibiroonies. Hollywood is WATCHING US ladies and gents. Now I'm ready to hand in my Pajiba membership card. WHO'S WITH ME?!?!

hahahaha lilianna!

do I have to drink double for an item if I contributed to it?

hmmmm

[glances down at rapidly depleting beer bottle, chins it and rushes off to the kitchen to grab another one]

Cheers!

yes, god, bethy, anything to get us back to the drunken orgies I came here for in the first place!

Bethy:

My standards are about as non-subjective as it's possible to be:

1. Critical acclaim: Not fact like gravity, but fact like evolution -- lots of people who know stuff about it say that this deserves inclusion; probably it is good.

2. Cultural moment: Semi-factual. This is the reason the Criterion collection has an edition of Armageddon. In retrospect, not all that good. At the time -- tremendous. The threshold on this is, I think, pretty high probably (due to the innate *ELITISM* [take a shot] of reviewers as a community), but the argument would be that shows that virtually become a part of the national dialogue, like Seinfeld or Friends, deserve a "best of" mention because they legitimatly Did Something. (Often coupled with an expectation that the Something was good: Seinfeld is easy-peasy, Friends or SATC harder to stomach, but ... ). While not strictly factual, this criteria proliferates many similar individual experiences to shape subjectivity into a common truth.

3. Changed the genre in a genuinely radical way: factual.

What I meant by "people who think about movies a lot can agree" is that these criteria are factual, or close to universality (not the same thing), and thus often these or similar criteria govern lists for places like Rolling Stone, NY Times, AFI, Criterion.

To be fair, scientists have a much better idea of how Evolution operates than how Gravity operates. =)

Is Cash Cab divided into seasons?

Cash Cab is only divided into epic wins.

Georgia, thanks for the standards. Pardon the cynical take, but here's how I read your list:
1 - in other words, mob rule, albeit from a select mob where membership is restricted to certain snooty types, or critical acclaim where the critics are often just paid shills (if I wanted them I wouldn't be here); 2 - something that affects the national dialogue? Do you really want to go there? There's a lot of shit that's defined national dialogue. Again, subjectivity as a common truth - who defines what is common?; 3 - genre change I already touched on, a crap show can change the genre or kill it completely, does that earn it a spot on the list? Really what I'm seeing here is pseudo-sciece, not far removed from what Pajiba's trying to do. Granted Pajiba's terms are a little less than scientific, but it's just the opinions of a different bunch of mainstream scholars, whose differences from mainstream criteria are apparently hard to stomach. And not to belabour the point to excess but our presence at this website indicates a desire for a non-mainstream point of view - are you in the right forum? The only true science is math, and there's nothing mathematical about something so sociological and thus subjective as TV.

damnit Georgia, I did not need that extra shot...can we move the scheduled orgy up a bit lilianna? I may be crashing sooner than I thought....

All excellent points G (sorry, shot kicking in, potent stuff, that Jager), but I would counter that you just described impact and social acceptance, not necessarally (how the hell do you spell that?) quality, per se.

While I see the merit in critical acclaim, and the two meld usually for me, universal is harder to pin down.

American Idol, for example, crossed the sea with much anticipation (critical and otherwise) and for the time unheard of ratings. It is still one of the most watched television series currently running, and undoubtetly changed its genre in a very significant way. However, you will only find a few that will call it actualy quality television (quality as most define it, camera usage, character, plot, etc, although to be fair I suppose not all of those apply to reality TV). Mostly is it catagorized under the "guilty pleasure" or "damn fun to watch" catagory. I myself watched a good portion of the first season and snipits of the latter ones.

This was the same argument pervading the Sex in the City thread. No one can argue that it was revolutionary. But quite a few disagreed with the quality tag.

I suppose I just see "best" and "culture changing" as seperate and exclusive things.

lordhelmet: Would agree that perhaps using those criteria that a fair point could be made that Pajiba is doing it badly? i.e. a fair number of the shows selected fail on those metrics.

"And not to belabour the point to excess but our presence at this website indicates a desire for a non-mainstream point of view - are you in the right forum?"

I can't speak for Georgia, but yeah, I'm in the right forum- provided that we're allowed a healthy debate about these 'best of tv' posts- both the choice of show and the very idea of the list.

To be honest, how can this list be a 'non-mainstream POV' if the majority of comments on each entry is an affirmation of the show's awesomeness? It seems more like a group of people feeling validated that their show made it, which isn't an indicator of quality- or at least no more so than high ratings or being a part of the national dialogue.

The entries that have intersted me the most are the outsider ones: SatC and Murder One. I didn't agree them, but I was glad the reviewers went there and could eloquently back up their opinions- that showed some consideration, some critical thought in choosing a) a very mainstream and perhaps shallow comedy and b) a forgotten legal drama. Picks like Buffy, VM, and FNL just seem rather threadbare to me.
I expected them to be here and well, here they are. That's a list a Pajibaist (Pajibist?) could put together in their sleep.

lordhelmet: If you're defining "non-mainstream" as "wholly unaware of external reality outside the dictates of the sub-community" then shouldn't you be over at 4chan?

Apparently unlike you, I don't like things based on whether they are "mainstream" or "not mainstream." Ebert's reviews are super interesting and sometimes I disagree; Pajiba's reviews (excepting Dustin's) are interesting and sometimes I disagree.

Pseudo-science is the essence of the concept of "best." It's a pseudo-science word. Best in Show. Best Essay. Best Lawyer in the Southwest. Using the word "best" implies a static rubric on which judgment is based. "My favorite dog" is a different contest entirely. Is that rubric wholly mechanized? No, and I'd argue that's not the goal -- but on the other hand no one wants the Best Brief award to go to the student who sucked the professor's cock most frequently. Thus, like I've said, the "objectivity" is always in quotation marks and always a means to an end -- that end being universality.

Bethy, American Idol is not in the conversation because it is not serialized fiction. But what I will say is that there MUST BE SOMETHING which people of reasonable intelligence (if you'll pardon me making that assumption on your behalf) experience which makes them come back which makes it difficult for me to say that, for example, the first season of the show should be left off of the "Best Media Moments" list ten years from now. How can you define "quality" such that you exclude a show which, apparently, is good at catching something human, and compelling would-be detractors to become supporters?

I haven't watched it (in college with no tv when it first came out) and I have no doubt that it sucks, sucks, sucks -- but I can't flatly deny its impact even when I debate its merits and THAT suggests to me it would be on a Best list.

And also as I said, there's usually a hidden requirement that the cultural moment thing also sort-of satisfy one of the other two, which I hope to God will exclude Family Guy from any future Best of lists.

Veronica Mars is great. It's stuff you can watch with young and old, you know; with people other than self-sucking assholes likeSirkickyass,

An egregious insult to physics and biology.

My only problems with the Pajiba Best 20-20 list are that none of the early Comedy Central stuff is there like Season 3 or 8 of South Park, A Craig Kilborn Daily Show, A Stewart/Corrdry/Carel/Colbert Daily Show, a sketch comedy show like UCB Season 2 or Mr. Show Season 4. Maybe a CYE or Seinfeld. Stuff like that.

I don't know much about Murder One or Sex and the City, but I figure that's appealing to more of everyone.

But with no reality tv.

I didn't care about Sopranos for the whole run. Besides, how can you argue with the Wire, West Wing, Six Feet Under, Larry Sanders, Twin Peaks, Freak and Geeks, motherfucking Arrested Development?

It's the best stuff out there.

if you want serial shows G (I kinda like the singular letter, hope you don't mind), I submit Two and a Half Men.

as to catching human interest being a tangible quality of, well, quality, I like to think of it as a train-wreck. You know it is a bad thing to happen thing, nothing good can come of it, yet you can't look away. same goes for car accidents, violent explosions and fat people walking in way too tight clothes (ok, sorry for that last one....Jager talking)

I think that is why shows that have high ratings but self-admitted/critisized as having a low "intelligence factor" (I could not think of a better way to put that) are usually fall under people's "guilty pleasures" lists. They are not necessaraly proud that they watch them (for me it is Gossip Girl), they know they can find better veiwing material out there but they keep on watching because of the morbid curiousity factor.

And I would love to keep discussing this (no, really I would, this is a well argued intelligent discussion, at least with you G) but I have to go watch the Celtics kick some LA ass

later all!

fine, force me to be coherent.

"Picks like Buffy, VM, and FNL just seem rather threadbare to me."

Funny thing, those are probably the best written, most comprehensive of the bunch. but ya, threadbare.

It seems to me that the argument is more in the vein of "YOU people like it, and you're trying too hard to be cool ergo, vis a vis, your list cannot define the "best" of tv based on the aforementioned multifaceted and highly debatable definition of "best", which has been proven as such by other venues where reviews are posted." To which I reply WTF? You're here, at Pajiba.com, you've typed the words into the address bar, you've read the shit, you've registered a name to review it so I'm pretty sure you even GET that you're here. At Pajiba. Where they talk about this stuff as being the "best" in their opinion ALL THE FRAKING TIME. Despite attempts to prove otherwise, "best" is pretty fucking arbitrary. Like, the fucking Beagle won "best" when clearly the Brussels Griffon kicked its furry ass, you know?

But seriously, this "best of" list isn't half as contrived as most VH1 / Blender / AMC lists are- if VM, Buffy and the like didn't make the list I'd have to call bullshit on all the other times reviewers and posters alike called it out for it's awesomeness. So again, pout some ever lovin' context into the bitchery.

My favorite commenter is SirKickyass. That makes him the best.

True or false?

SirAss guy: Wow...there was a rant if I've ever seen one. It sounds to me like you don't share the opinions of the author of this review (or of many of the TV reviews). Great. Fantastic. You're a free-thinking TV-watcher who doesn't fall for shows about teen detectives and vampires. You have your own well-formed opinions about what moves you and what you like to watch. so...

GO WRITE your OWN LIST!

I should say that the shows on your list were backed up by nothing more than YOUR opinion, just as the choice to include V-Mars was likely inspired by the opinion of Pajiba staff. And your reason to exclude V-Mars? Because it is the hipster thing-to-do. That it isn't as noir as noir can be. Solid.

Again, I suggest you stop trolling other peoples' sites and create your own mega-successful review site. There, you can rant all you want about the lack of cultural impact Buffy the Vampire Slayer has had or how Twin Peaks was campy, or what-the-fuck ever.

This is a review site; by its nature it is made of opinion. What don't you understand about that? Sorry, but there is no right answer to the question "What are the best TV shows ever made?"

Georgia, godtopus, I think you're arguing both sides of the equation. YOU are not representative of the Pajiaverse. Nor am I, or any one poster. There seem to be meetings. And discussions, and choices and oh, hell, looky there REASONS (in the form of reviews) up above. So your BS comparison don't fly sweetbuns. But you know that, you're just being contrary. Which is kind of hot. Orgy time?

This is a fascinating thread. I love the top twenty idea and think the reviews are fabulous, but I must admit that there does appear to be a bias toward the recent That said we're not all the way through yet and, who knows?, maybe my beloved Law and Order will make it in there. There are also just so many shows that were consistently pretty damned good and, yet, were subjected to the limitations of being a network show (like E.R. or Seinfeld or something like that).

I speak for myself and my cat when I say,

SirKickyass is my favorite commenter. It's his eyes, and maybe his hair. I think his wit is wicked, and I do mean wicked awesome because it's 1998. Yes, indeed, Sirkickyass is the best commenter.

Oh my god, so do I! His hair is MY favorite too! He IS the best.

First, I must say I love any claim of "you're in the wrong forum." In effect the argument is "You don't agree so you're clearly in the wrong community, if you don't agree with the picks then get out." It's funny how people immediately go straight to the "stick to your own" line of argumentation whenever their ideas are challenged. To be fair "stick to your own" is an idea with a long and complicated history in this country, just ask every state with a history of anti-miscegenation laws.

If the soul of pajiba is one that is self-acknowledgedly heavily tilted towards the recent, obsessed with cult figures like Joss Whedon (who has two of the top 20 seasons to his credit while David Chase and David E. Kelly have none), and have unquestioning love for a handful of cult favorites that never caught on that's one thing. When making a list titled "The (note the definite article) Best 20 Seasons of the Past 20 Years" you're making another statement entirely. The representation isn't that this is a list designed for geek outs over random character X on Veronica Mars, the point is that we're going for the BEST stuff.

Best is inherently a relative concept. In order for something to be "better" then other things have to be "worse." At the end of this project the assumed statement will be that all of the shows that were picked were "better" than the shows that were not picked. At the end of the day I think Pajiba has backed itself into a corner where it will be extrordinarily difficult, if not impossible, to justify some of the shows they've picked over some that will inevitably be excluded on any grounds other than "I just like it better." That's why it looks more like a favorites list than a real "best of" list.

That being said there are a number of websites where fanboy/fangirl geek-offs and unquestioning love is acceptable. Just check out newsarama.com for a 24/7 stream of it. But at the end of the day I thought this website provided "scathing reviews for bitchy people." Turns out the reviews aren't scathing unless they're easy targets and bitchy people aren't welcome.

Seriously if you can't question problems with VM then you're not really allowing people to write scathing reviews and be bitchy. Apparently it's only ok to be scathing if the subject matter involves Tyler Perry or Martin Lawrence.

Sirkickyass is also my favorite commentator. Maybe it's his personal style or something, but whenever I look at him in the mirror my interest is aroused. Oh, who am I kidding, it's not just my interest.

I haven't watched it (in college with no tv when it first came out) and I have no doubt that it sucks, sucks, sucks -- but I can't flatly deny its impact even when I debate its merits and THAT suggests to me it would be on a Best list.

But isn't that what is happening here? People are denying the impact of shows on the list while debating the merits.

If Idol is to be used as an example, then one could question its impact by bringing similar shows such as Star Search, The Gong Show, and more. Would it be remotely fair or even-handed? More than likely not.

Another question: would shows like Jericho, Firefly, and VM have been resurrected or sustained by fan support if not for Futurama and Family Guy proving that ratings don't always measure fandom? Yet, you say Family Guy doesn't deserve a spot on the list?

The Real World could fit in due to that criteria, but then again, so could Flavor of Love. And plenty of shows aren't really groundbreakers, but are often considered the "best". ER isn't the first hospital drama by a long shot, but many can argue that its cultural impact was great.

And shows that do have a markedly important cultural effect, like Twin Peaks and Lost, are either on the list, or have an excellent chance of being there.

Yes, we should consider shows that make a mark on the cultural landscape. But to do so without considering the kind of mark it leaves and the kind of change it engenders pretty much negates the point of the labeling it the "best".

My thing is this: it is pretty much a given that these shows won't appeal to everyone. And not every great show is going to be on here. But they set their goal, and they are meeting it to the best of their ability. Feel free to disagree as much as you want. All I ask is that folks respect that they did it, otherwise come up with your own list.

P.S. Using your criteria, here is my shot at defending Veronica Mars. this is merely MY OPINION, since I now have to do a disclaimer so that certain people don't think I am trying to burrow into their minds and force them to believe me.

1. Critical acclaim - out the wazoo. And that can be checked.

2. Cultural moment - Depends on what culture. Since it was on a lower network, it really did not have the chance to impact people like say Friends on NBC or Lost on ABC. But those who have seen it more often than not (as seen here in the comments) felt that the show WAS an immense cultural impact, even if it was just in their lives. If we base cultural impact on what amounts to water-cooler talk, then MTV, VH1, E!, and BET would be inundating this list.

3. Change the genre in a really radical way - so taking the staid "high schoolers with emotional problems" and using it as a backdrop for a murder mystery isn't radical? Or flip it around: making a serial mystery show, only setting it in the often confusing and soul-crushing period of high school? That wasn't in any way new?

oh don' t give yourself somuch credit sirk, you're not one of the bitchy people. You're just mildly irritating, like a rock in a nice pair of shoes.

And back to your premise... that"BEST OF..." should be "based on emotionless, predetermined criteria devoid of context to the actual site it's published at.

And it isn't that you don't agree. You're allowed to be in the club and not agree (curse your Highlander Hate, Pajibaverse!) It's that you've decided to take it upon yourself to school the community in the error of the entire process, selection criteria and tenor of the collective posts. You're not only doing it here, mind you, but in other posts as well, which... finish the conversation you're having with my daughter! If anything, methinks you protest a bit too much, and my bullshit radar based on 1) your strange ass handle seeming to predict your recent and most unwelcome tirade and 2) your cancerous comments spreading throughout recent comment threads makes me call troll on you. But then again, we love spambots, so i don't see why there isn't a place for anyone who feels like posting here. Then again, last I looked Skittimus was the final arbiter of membership, seeing as though he has the keys to the MurderTank™ and prints all the fake ids.

I'm with lil on Highlander. It raises some profound questions about everlasting life, invulnerability, the vagabond lifestyle, the comfortable vagabond lifestyle, and whether or not one could stomch chopping heads off until the final quickening swallowed up the entire universe. Or at least that's what I think happens. I never caught the other movies but do admit to knowing the arc of Adrian Paul's work.

What I love about this is that some people do argue the merits of the show: they are that charitable. Most of us are merely stating that Sirkickyass is a whinnying jellybag. You do most of the arguing in support of that position, and the rest of us can just admire what a self-sucking asshole looks like caviling on. You are a pedestrian, and this the motherfuckin highway.

If you have not been destroyed yet, it is as Godtopus wills it. Godtopus doesn't care about you.

Whatever.

Third season of Space Ghost: Coast to Coast

Wow. My head hurts. Sir Kickyassholepants or whatsisface just crushed the marshmallow VM love that Dan inspired with his amazing review.

As a twenty-something, I was in junior high and high school when the WB had its heyday. I watched Seventh Heaven and snuck in Felicity and Dawson's Creek. (Buffy never did it for me--just a personal bias). And of course, I remember when One Tree Hill and Gilmore Girls first came out, as well as the sadly-mishandled The OC. Of course, these were the touted and popular teen shows of the day.

Here's my point: VM is groundbreaking in that it represents a teen show that is actually smart, heartbreaking, and damn funny, that teens and adults can enjoy. It's a cult favorite for a reason. I don't like it because it's cool and "hipster," as has been suggested by other posters, who sound rather elitist and pretentious themselves.

I like it because it doesn't make me gag like the other teenybopper shows nowadays (although I will gladly defend my Gilmores to the death!). I like it because it allows me to live in the noir-land of Neptune without, you know, actually living there. I like it because I find Veronica flawed and relatable, and usually very very likeable.

Sir K, you don't have to agree with me. You don't have to agree with Pajiba. That is your right. You can have all these standards, and that is just fine. But please don't be a douchebag.

Georgia, sweetheart, you're a might touchy today. By non-mainstream I simply mean "among people for whom mainstream preferences hold less prominence" - which seems to fit the pajibaverse pretty well, since we seem not to love a lot of the mindless shit being peddled as the latest big hits. And as far as subjectivity and quality goes I think it's been pretty well established that as this whole exercise, regardless of location, is pseudo-scientific, those with pathological needs for pure, mathematical objectivity will be left feeling kinda empty inside. Just have a good night's rest, be sure to kiss your Sirkicky poster goodnight, and things'll be a little less annoying in the morning.


Sirkicky, I'll agree that Pajiba could definitely have done a better job enunciating, defining, and adhering to a given set of metrics, but let's keep some perspective, this is a rather niche forum with a unique audience - I'd say there has to be a balancing act between objective quality and what the audience considers to be good. Either way, the end result is some good shows I'd never heard of got very eloquent summaries and will soon be making an appearance in my living room. Really, what's the harm in that? And why are their imperfections such a big deal? Godtopus people, let's take some deep breaths and have a discourse that gets a little higher than consistent whining and name-calling?

wasn't paris hilton playing a teenager on that show?

i rest my fucking case.

rolotte - what case? If anything, the show survived her cameos, and went on to excel. My dear little sunshine, thy name is troll. Good night!

God I'm praying Perfect Strangers makes this Best of List. Balki Bartokomous just had that spark, you know, and his tenuous yet lovable relationship with his well-grounded American cousin, well that's just something we can all relate to on a very personal level!

While Buffy the Vampire Slayer was my entrance drug into serialized television; my proverbial marajuana if you will, Veronica Mars was my heroin addiction. Buffy was a long, enjoyable, slightly rocky towards the end high that made me understand things in this world a little better and helped me sleep at night. Veronica Mars on the other hand abused me, used me, and then abandoned me in a corner crying, scared, and alone. I haven't gotten as high since.

(might I also pimp my new, official, and validated blog? http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2261639#post2261639)

I absolutely love Kyra Sedgwick as Veronica Mars; I think she can be a role model for all you ladies. I think she has a unique ability to go outside the box when interrogating suspects to get to the true cause of a crime. I hope TNT realizes that they have a great drama, and not cancel it.

HELLZ YEAH!!!!

That is all.

Even with all the comments and arguing about this list Pajiba-style, this review still warmed my heart AND made me want to watch all of the episodes over again.

Sometimes, I get really sad that I never watched this show when it first aired. I, like Veronica, am a marshmallow.

Good review...perfectly points out exactly why i love this show...they should never have cancelled it.

Why isn't it available on DVD in the UK? Life is so unfair...:(

This review is perfect. It made me tear up just reading about all the great tribulations that Veronica et al. went through.

And HOTchick, you may frack off. How dare you pollute this site with your sewage?

I have a weird love/hate relationship with this show. The second season finale pretty much ruined the first season, second to last episode for me.
I didn't like the way Rob Thomas turned on the Lamb fans, and Kristen Bell seemed to be bored with the role when she turned up for the third season.
However, the series ending was brilliant, totally in line with the tone and theme that was set in the first season. Which was pretty perfect, and totally belongs on any Best of... list.
But that's just my subjective opinion.

I wonder what the other six will be.

Possibilities off the top of my head -
The Sopranos...X-Files...Rome...Lost...Seinfeld...24...Northern Exposure (would love to see that make it)...ER (back when it was groundbreaking)...Cheers (one of the middle seasons - not the end)...LA Law (oldest season available for the 20 year cutoff)...Quantum Leap (a stretch, I know)...China Beach...The Practice...Battlestar Galactica...Black Sash (o.k. - kidding about that one)...

I don't know. It will be interesting.

Oh, and Sports Night deserves consideration as well.

Jeez Louise, some people have a bee in their bonnet today, and i am not talking about Sirkickyass or Georgia, who have actually come across as thoughtful and articulate.
Vermillion on the other hand, you let yourself down big-time.
I have never seen Veronica Mars, but the review was excellent and has definitely piqued my interest. But what is so wrong with making the assertion that though it was good, was it really one of the best series of the last 20 years?
Opinion is subjective and i love Pajiba for just coming out and saying what (each reviewer) loves, i have found some reviews more moving than the actual thing that is being reviewed.
But when someone like Sirkickyass makes a rational and calm arguement i have to tip my hat to him.
It is much too easy (as i have seen on other sites-oh poor desk-bound me!) to state your case in an ignorant and inelligible manner (e.g. Veronica Mars is fucking shit you r al knobjockeys bck to russia!), so heads up to Sirkickyass for actually making a lot of sense, having a sense of humour (loved the Harvey reference) and not resorting to cheap shots and name-calling. Unlike others. Now excuse me, i most dismount this horse, its quite windy up here;-)

So I don't know about you guys but I'm pretty sure I could get Georgia's number at this point. Regardless of anything else, I think that means I win.

*high fives self*

Having now gotten some much needed rest, I can see where my original point was harsher than intended. So I apologize for that particular lapse in judgment. It was unnecessary, and quite rude.

That said, this is what I truly meant:

Sirkickyass, I do not appreciate your insinuation that I (or any fan of this show) only like it because it is "hipster" and "cool" to do so. Thing like that irritate me because they suppose that I cannot make my own decisions on what I like or don't like. I am usually right there on the front lines whenever TPTB begin their rants and raves on what is culturally acceptable; I hate elitism as much as anyone. So when someone accuses me of it, especially in a blanket statement and based on nothing more that a commonality, it infuriates me to no end.

If you don't like the show, fine; but don't question my motives. If you can have your reasons for disliking it, why can't I have mine for liking it? How come when it is your choice, you are a free thinker bucking the system, but when it is someone else's, then then they are mindless copycats? Could it be that they just like something other people like? According to your statements, apparently I can only be a hipster who wants to be seen as cool to people I never met in person on a random website.

And you can't say it wasn't the case: true you brought up that certain shows looked like the were passed over, but your main point was that you didn't like VM, and that anyone who did obviously didn't see its glaring problems, and either had to be crazy or a sheepish follower.

With lines like:

The ongoing Veronica Mars love on this website is the number one piece of evidence that you all are off your fucking rocker.

The addition of Veronica Mars is going to be something that you'll look at on this list 10 years from now and say "Dear God, we lost ALL objectivity in the gigantic fan-boy wank off that is pajiba."

It's time for Pajiba to go to rehab and remember what's actually good and distinguish that from what it's popular to like right now. Veronica Mars is in the latter category instead of the former.

I don't see how your comment could be construed as 'reasonable' as frogofwar states. They had nothing to do with complaining about non-objectivity; it had everything to do with your not liking the show and trying to denigrate anyone who did. That was your whole impetus for even posting. So spare us the wounded rebel act.

And despite your assertions, you have yet to say exactly how "best of" is subjective. As far as the title and the guidelines set by the reviewer are concerned, they did indeed pick shows within the 20-year period, and their opinion is that they were the best. If they had expressed a particular measuring stick (ratings, pop culture, number of Cheez Whiz commercials), then your complaint could be valid. But all they said was "These are the shows we feel are the best out of the last 20 years." That is it. Done. Finito. If you conjured up some separate list of criteria to judge them by, good on you. But they can't read your mind, and they don't have to do what you say.

If you don't think it is that great, absolutely fine. But come on, don't demand they somehow owe you a modified list that meets with your approval. That is just as ridiculous as, well, as them insisting that you actually have to like everything on the list. And considering some of the picks and the responses to them, that is totally not the case.

The funny thing is, by complaining so, you are guilty of the very thing you complain about. You exalt this list like it is supposed to be the be-all, end-all perfect compilation that no one would question. And then act disappointed when you don't agree with it, and demand recompenses for your mental anguish at having to read such a thing.

I, on the other hand, just see it as another list of shows they liked, and maybe I liked too. I am not going to get bent out of shape because they slapped My So-Called Life up there (yeah, I couldn't stand it, what of it?) because if it was that big a deal to them, then they have every right to say so on their website. As long as they don't come beating down my door and try to forcibly 'enlighten' to the greatness of Angela Chase and that emo-looking dude that slept with Lohan, then I could give two bits what they say.

"Sooner or later the people you love let you down". That's one of the greatest quote of this season.

MAN!!! I'm happy to see this right here. I've checking the selections you've made so far and I asked you for this. AND NOW IS HERE!

Anyway. The episode of Mars vs. Mars also introduced us a gorgeous girl: leighton meester. It's amazing to think these two incredible beautiful ladies were together.

I know your story couldn't be TOO long to talk about the music. So I will. The music was the perfect complement for every episode and was an instrument that allowed us to ignore who the real killer was (do you remember when he SAVED his daughter with a leash?). The music is another character. So important that you could find a site made from the fans to the fans. Check it out:

http://veronicamusic.blogspot.com/

I have to say this was way better than the 3rd because it didn't try to make the "ross and rachel" kind of story. That's also why I love an ending like the one we had to settle for. VM and her VMVO don't mix well with a "happily ever after" ending.
And by the third season I couldn't stand Jason D. He really bugged me!

Sirkickyass, "Unmentioned by the review, in the pilot episode she also tampers with evidence and commits between 4-5 felonies"...that's part of what you don't agree to be called "noir".

"when we think of the principal settings used in the classic FILM NOIR, images of the city at night, with its low-rent apartments, shadowy alleys are summoned up.
However these iconic images allow us to forget that in many FILMS NOIR, it is not the dark, rain-soaked city, but the sunny, California suburb, with its manicured lawns, idyllic homes and crystal blue swimming pools, that serve as the backdrop for the film's twisted plots. (DOUBLE INDEMNITY). One of the first images of sunset boulevard reveals a glorious Los Angeles mansion with trimmed hedges and stucco walls; the only thing awry is the presence of our narrator, Joe Gillis, floating facedown in the mansion's swimming pool"

"Veronica has all the necessary noir elements. She's missing a parent. She's been ostracized from her peers. Her best friend has been brutally murdered. She's a rape victim. She has a long-lost love who might-could-have-been her brother but then wasn't but then knocked up another girl and escaped the country with their baby.
These situations combined with the occasional dropping of an ironic, funky-white girl "fo'shizzle" (VM 1-8) all this camp mixes smoothly with the noir, creating a gentle BALANCE between elements which, left to their own devices, would probably grate like a Taser on a chalkboard".

BUT KEEP THIS IN MIND. It's just TV. You cannot present American psycho or American beauty on primetime on UPN.

grab this book: "neptune noir. Unauthorized investigations into veronica mars"

Pardon me for pulling back the curtain a bit and showing you the wizard's shoe, but one of the requirements for the list is that once we choose a television program, we are only choosing one season from a particular show. So for example, if a show started before 1988, we wouldn't be including a later season just to put it up there. So that eliminated a few television landscape modifiers/greats: Night Court, Cheers, Married With Children. Each one of the show's was based on a reviewer's particular tastes, with some getting snatched up by senior reviewers beforehand.

I submitted The Boondocks for my selection, but the problem with it is, not a lot of people have heard of it. I do think the Boondocks is one of the greatest shows every made. I tell people that on a constant basis. So what I suggested was that I do an Underappreciated Gem on both seasons of the Boondocks. That might go up at some point.

When you raised hell about how inept we are at the DVD releases, you neglected one thing. They tend to list things that have been REVIEWED on the site. We're not Entertainment Weekly, we're listing things that we've talked about. So yeah, Boondocks rolled under the radar, because not everyone knows about it. So like most of the greatness on this site, I'm spreading the gospel the way I always do, by preaching it loud and proud. Not by sauntering in and being a dick about it.

Case in point, no one yet has mentioned the show it being a travesty that the show that I'm contributing hasn't yet made it. But it needs to be there. It's changed the face of television permanently. It's carved a niche like you wouldn't believe. You know what it is. You'll figure it out.

Georgia, to answer your question to whether SirAss is the "best" because you agree with him, if you think he is, you can make that statement because as everyone has said before, an opinion is subjective.

And SirAss, you keep talking about how Pajiba is supposed to justify their choices. I think that's your problem right there, Paijiba doesn't have to justify a Godopus damn thing. This site isn't a news reporting agency, it is an entertainment site where generally like minded individuals come to communicate. We don't always agree and some of the most entertaining conversations were debates, so for you to say that we are a "stick-to-your-own" group isn't true. But when you come to the group with a superior attitude about the reviewers and the posters, well, that doesn't go over well.

As for Pajiba only welcoming bitchy comments from those who agree with us, why that just isn't true sugar. But your line of arguement isn't bitchy, it is just plain tiresome and Pajiba ain't a place for that.

Vermillion: I think you overstate the case a bit.

1. A statement about the way a community at large behaves shouldn't be taken personally by any one individual. Example: Men get anally raped in prison. Does this mean that one long-time prisoner that has never been anally raped should take that as a statement about him? No.

Only an egotist would take every generalization to be about him personally.

2. Obviously any exclusive list will have some level of debate involved. The AFI 100 probably has a vigorous internal debate about where to place "Birth of a Nation." Those discussions