Pajiba

You're a brave man starting another Lost thread.

I'm fine with the unanswered questions. Striking the balance is very
challenging and you don't want to disembowel your own franchaise
[cough Matrix cough]. I've been quite obnoxious over on Daniel's
superfantastic recaps about how some viewers can't see the forest for the
trees and how it is a sign of good writing that when things are revealed they
make sense instead of being a total surprise; something which for years
seemed mysterious and baffling now makes absolute sense. I think the
production team is choosing their battles wisely. I would also suspect there
will be a Lost companion published to answer more questions. Dudes have
got to eat.

WORD, and while I love me some Hurley, I also love me some Sawyer, so there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_YHV5fdUiQ

Now if someone will just make me a Desmond vid! What, what's that internet? Awww, you think of EVERYTHING: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq_SURMi1Mo&feature=related

Aiiii, I understand the frustration, because lord knows the goldy light and the "science" (WTFUCKERY? I'm going to use this non-frozen donkey wheel to channel the water and the light and WHAT?!?!?) left me going SCHWA?!?! But, I mean, what if they DO pull it off?! I'm holding out hope. . .brutha.

Wait, really you guys? Haven't you ENJOYED this series? And talking about it every week? Never has a TV series provoked so much debate around my circle of friends. Lost has been a fun mind stretcher. I've relished trying to stay one step ahead of the twists and constantly being thrown for a loop. I mean, I'm sorry, I LOVE it because most shows out there are dumb and formulaic and predictable and who are YOU that the writers owe you anything? They've produced something (totally in)consistently entertaining and intriguing and controversial for the past six years and I, for one, am pleased as punch that something so unusual has been allowed to carry on to its possibly vague but still engaging conclusion.

Didn't fit with their vision???
Is that a nice way to say they were too damn lazy to figure out the answers to their own mysteries?

See, that's what it is: laziness. They had plenty of time to answer the questions, any and all of them. Just didn't feel like it, I guess. If you're gonna bust out a damn polar bear mysteriously living in the tropics, you better explain that shit. And I don't mean finding rusty cages and fish cookie machines two seasons later, mothereffers. I mean, EXPLAIN THAT SHIT. I should have known right then when it showed up that that's how the show would end - half-assed buffoonery masquerading as "mystery".

Pure laziness. And I fell for it. Figured that since they set their end date so far in advance they'd tie it all up so we'd be satisfied in the end. Some folks are satisfied already (and I don't know how they're doing it), but I am not. They set up an awesome premise, and the thing is, it really seemed to be going somewhere. Many somewheres, as it turns out. But now I think it's going nowhere, and it's a shame, because the show was fun and interesting and now...not so fun. Now it just feels like filler and shenanigans. Lazy-assed shenanigans.

Who gives a shit about the dude Sayid blasted on the golf course? Someone SERIOUSLY wants that answered? That's getting down to some real nit-picky shit right there.

They tried to nuke 'em. We still don't know if it worked. That's one of
the questions.

See, I just actually responded to this idea over in the recap thread. It's not that we want every little question ever brought up answered, it's that we want the stuff answered that was made a big deal of.

Copied and pasted for your pleasure (or disapproval, take your pick):

At this point I think I'd have been ok with them just saying 'Look, it's a magical island, weird shit happens, deal with it,' than trying to explain to me the why of it all.
Posted by: Carrie (Teabelly) at May 13, 2010 5:18 AM

I'd have been totally okay with that too. If they hadn't made such a big effing deal about all the weird stuff that happens from the beginning.

See, I was thinking about this last night. I was thinking about the numbers thing. You (that's the Royal You, not a specific you) remember the numbers, right? Those mysterious numbers that won Hurley the lottery, that he got from crazy Leonard, that were stamped on the inside of the hatch, that were used to reset the timer and stem the flow of electromagnetic energy that would destroy the world, that showed up everywhere from ticket numbers to flight numbers to numbers stenciled on garbage cans (I might be making that last one up to make a point)? The numbers were made into a big deal by the show, by Lindelof and Cuse and co., and the audience clamored for an answer to the mystery of the numbers. Why are they everywhere? It can't just be coincidence, can it? It's not like it's a digit or two, it's a specific sequence of six numbers. So, we got an episode detailing Hurley's search for the meaning of the numbers, and it turns out, they're pretty much meaningless. They're not significant.

I think this sums up the entire show pretty well, which is to say that if all the mysteries are meaningless, then what's the point? Why focus SO HARD on those things, the things that are part of the mystery, if what you want to focus on is the character stories? The problem is, you can't create the mystery aspects and then just say, "Well, it's not about the mystery, it's about the characters." Because it IS about the mystery, too. It has been since the first episode. It's kept me on the edge of my seat for nearly 6 seasons. All these little coincidences are introduced, things that seem too linked to possibly be coincidence, and then they just... disappear, chalked off to coincidence. But then they come back again, "Well, was it REALLY coincidence?" I think my being okay with the alternate timeline stuff stems from this: if none of the rest of it, the numbers, the bird, the myriad other details that have made up half the show, if it's really going to be just about the characters in the end, then why shouldn't it end that way? Why shouldn't it wipe out all of the backstories and all those little details that we've learned over the years? Because if they don't matter anyway, then why shouldn't the characters go on to have better lives, and happy endings all wrapped up in a neat little bow made of puppies and rainbows?

You can't have it both ways, is all I'm saying. You can't make it 50/50 character/mystery and then turn around and say, no, it was really 80/20 all along. Because no it wasn't. I was there. I watched it being 50/50. I mean, you *can*, but you HAVE to expect that a good chunk of your audience is not going to be satisfied by that. I really don't think I'm wrong for being a bit disappointed.

Listen, when it comes to the little stuff, like the questions Darlton bring up in that snippet up there, I am totally in agreement. They can't possibly answer every little question or bit of information they roused over the years. That's not what people are so upset about, I don't believe.

I have said all along, the main story here has to be pretty simple. It was planned from the beginning, and the show wasn't even expected to be a hit - so it's something that might have been resolved in season or two. But as the show went on, more and more mythology was added and we were taken on a journey with all sorts of cool connections and side trips. But the cool connections and the side trips were just that - to essentially drag out the main story until whatever end point was decided.
What the problem is going to be (and if Across the Sea is any indication...) is if the main story is not satisfying and we don't get answers to the truly important/main story. Magic light is a little rough. I really don't think anyone is terribly impressed with the magic light. And when all the teasers promise answers, I think we'd all have given up knowing for sure who Adam and Eve were for say, something more about Mother Dearest and how she came to her position of knowledge on the island. At this stage of the game, to give us yet another character who says the same old thing that Ben, Richard and Jacob have already said (the island is special, we must protect it, don't ask questions, talk in riddles), and to spend that whole episode just to show us that Mother was a bitch and MIB has good reason to be who/what he is. All that could have been done in fifteen minutes in a flashback or something.
So the magic light ate MIB and spit him out as Smokey - that's just dandy. There's no logical reason why he sounds like a roller coaster, I can deal with that. But is it satisfying? No. And it doesn't give us much hope for any main storyline answers in the next few hours.

I think what we're going to end up with is resolution for some of the characters who are left (Jack Hurley, Sawyer, Kate). I think some of the resolution is going to be in the sideways. I think we will never be told exactly what the island is, which is wholly unsatisfying. (And I think even if the producers and writers have an idea of what the island is, it would be disappointing.)

Do I love the characters of Lost? Yes. And I have loved this show throughout, even that crappy season. But I certainly expected my devotion to lead to a respectable, believable (with a little stretch) and not entirely silly ending. YOU HAVE TO GIVE US SOME KIND OF INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THIS ISLAND IS! As much as I want to know about what happens to the characters, you can't creae this wacky, magical place and then just ignore the island in the middle of the room when you wrap up the story.

This feels like when I am reading a wonderful book, with a great beginning and middle, and then as the story winds down it becomes more and more muddled and disappointing, and then the end goes off into something completely unbelievable. Then I get mad and throw the book in the garbage. For Darlton to not see that coming seems incomprehensible. People aren't upset that you won't tell us MIB's name. People are upset because they see the unsatisfying end heading their way.

I just want answers to the big questions and a feeling that a story was begun and ended. I don't care about the polar bear, or the guy Sayid killed on the golf course, or where the dog went, or any of that little shit. I don't mind if those little island mysteries are left open. Answer the big stuff (see below).

This is where I disagree with some people about the writers "owing" explanations. Well, they kinda do, and not just to the fans. When you're talking about movies or books, there is a limited amount of time invested as compared to YEARS of investment in a TV show. Should they explain every single thing? Of course not, that's absurd. But if they don't wrap some shit up, they do a disservice not only to the fans, but to the amazing story they've told. If they go "Dark Tower" (or some other equally ridiculous ending) on this, it will rank #1 on my list of Promising And Entertaining Things That Were Ruined By An Unfathomably Stupid Ending (copywright: Battlestar Galactica).

Incomplete list of what should probably be answered in some way:

1. Time Travel/Alternate Timeline: Seriously, they can't leave this hanging. It is far and away the most important thing that needs explaining. I'll deal with the rest. Just explain how this is possible in Lost world or you fail. And wrap up the divergent timelines. Only one reality can exist since leaving both is a bitch move 100 times over.

2. What is the Smoke Monster?: Like, what the fuck is that thing? How is it possible that it exists? When you introduce completely foreign entities, you need a better explanation than, "he is the embodiment of 'worse than death' or 'he's the MIB, duh.'"

3. Some character resolution. Already been promised.

4. How was Jacob able to leave the island and what is keeping MIB from doing so? And what is the true issue behind letting him loose? The last episode muddied these questions more than ever.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but for me, these issues have either not been addressed at all or need to be fleshed out a lot more. I'm sure Lindelof and Cuse don't give a rat's ass about myself and the rest of the viewers, so I hope they feel a responsibility to their creative natures to end the story with conviction and purpose.

I didn't think Mother was God - I thought the light was (representative of) God. And people doing everything, including murdering, in the name of God does parallel our world. Mother was just one of those rabid followers.

And just...really, using the 'it's all part of the mystery of life' is as bullshit as that 'I did it because I LOVE YOU' line the other night. It's nothing but a cop-out.

You're full of wisdom, Yoss. I agree with every single thing you said up there.

That's the cool thing, Cindy, I think so MANY things on the island can be "God." The light, Jacob, Mother, Smokey even. It depends on the follower. Jacob behaved to Mother the way an acolyte would to a deity. The MIB felt that same adulation for the light. There have been so many conversations/monologues the past few seasons, when the Losties and Others (I'm thinking chiefly of Ben, Richard and Jack) have raged against Jacob and his ineffable plan. In any of these cases you could replace the word Jacob with God and it would sound very familiar to all of us. I mean, after all, in a Judeo-Christian society, isn't our faith/our relationship with God the ultimate Daddy Issue?

Jacob, in my opinion, just happens to have a Mommy Issue.

But then, OK, you RAGE against God because his "plan" seems illogical and CRUEL, but, in Judeo-Christian belief, at least, is counseled to have "faith." Are Darlton showing us that blind faith could be tantamount to trusting the plan of a Jacob. That is not the Man I want in charge. Not at all. *

*Full disclosure, I'm an athiest so I'm not pushing and religious agenda here. Not even Dawkinsism/Hitchensity.

I think covered is saying that Mother is Jacob's god. Not that she's God, or whatever.

I have lots of questions, I do. Most of them will never be answered, I've accepted that. But they seriously are never going to give us MIB's name? Why have they gone out of their way all season to never tell us if they're never going to tell us, you know? Honestly, that is nothing less than fucked up.

I agree with kballs up there on what they really do need to answer if they don't want to piss off millions of fans. I'm satisfied with the explanation Jacob gave to Richard on what the island is, I think it's possible that no one really knows what it is, but maybe they only know what it does (act as a stopper for evil). I like that the writers trust us enough to let us figure out a lot of the mysteries on our own. That's what makes these discussions so fun. And, Jesus, look at what happens when they DO give us straightforward answers (the whispers, the numbers - which they did explain - the numbers represent the candidates and always have): we get all sorts of pissed off at how simple everything turns out to be, and lament the hours we've devoted to solving this complicated mess, when it turns out to be ridiculously UNcomplicated in the end.

Yeah well, apparently we're all a bunch of idiots for having faith in these producers and writers. I suppose that's why I'm so angry.

*stepping away from the computer*

Kolby, I thought you didn't read spoilers? I thought you were a purist? Also, I think a lot of this anxiety comes the the machine that surrounds Lost. I watch episodes online and walk away from any commercials so I never see promos so I never feel like I'm been promised anything. I also try to ignore what the producers have said outside the show. And I CERTAINLY ignore any rumors I hear about Henry Ian Cusick (LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, BRUTHA!). So maybe that's why I just don't care. I'm not trying to be smug in any sense, mind you. I'm just having so much trouble relating to the bile and maybe that's why?

I've never even been to the Lostpedia page, and have refused to go there when people linked to it. I've ignored interviews, previews, spoilers, EVERYTHING that wasn't on the show. And I'm still pissed.

You know what it is? It's disrespecting the fans. It's telling us that they've been dangling a carrot in front of our noses all along, we've reached the end of the road and they won't give us the carrot because that was totally their plan all along and life is just not fair and it's all a mystery, so don't expect no carrot.

And ok I'm sure they'll resolve some big things, but if they were REALLY good they'd tie EVERYTHING together. But they're not. So they'll just leave shit dangling everywhere.

Golf clap KBalls.

I like that Figgy.

figgy,

I have four up there at 10:48 a.m. to start us off.

Here's my first question:
Am I okay with having the inevitable deus ex machina be, literally, god?

Questions:

- what is the significance of the numbers? Why do they have the effects that they do (particularly on Hurley pre-crash)? Is it just a mechanism for Jacob to exert supernatural influence on Hurley's life?

- What does Desmond know and how does he know it? What is his objective in each timeline and how does his knowledge support the decision he is making (to run over Locke in one timeline and follow him to be pushed down a well in the other)?

- What does Widmore know and how does he know it? What has motivated his actions in the early seasons and what is his objective on the island now?

- Explain Ben Linus. Provide a logical reason for any of his actions. Why was he leading the others? What was he leading them for? Why did he kidnap children and kill people? He did some crazy shit in the first few seasons and always had mysterious 'for the greater good' reasons for it. If he was acting for the greater good what did he think that greater good was and how did he arrive at that conclusion? What was he being told and who was telling it to him? What did he think he was going to accomplish?

- Explain what Jacob learns or realizes between the first century AD and the twenty-first century AD about his role on the island that causes him to do everything he does. If no one teaches him about his powers, does that mean he just has an instinctual feel for them, and how they work? Does someone/something (God? The Island?) tell him the names of the people he needs to touch and the things he needs to do or does Jacob just make it all up on his own, relying on his own intuition after centuries of life and observation on the island? If Jacob is acting on his own what are the guiding principals that motivate his actions and how did he determine that they were the best course of action. If someone/something is advising Jacob, what is it and what is its nature?

I like Yossarian's questions, and will be happy to just get answers to those.

I am not focusing on the polar bears, per se. My point is, if you're going to put odd things in an odd place, I want to know the value of those odd things and place. That's all. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation to hold.

If all along the whole story was going to boil down to an ex deus machina, I wouldn't have spent a minute thinking about anything I've seen on this show, except the hotness. I don't regret a minute I've spent thinking about the hotness. :)

Oh, yeah. And the smoke monster. WTF is that?! That's one of the biggest mysteries, from the very beginning, and if they don't feel like answering that, then fuck 'em.

1) what's up with the pregnancies on the island?
2) How did Jacob leave the Island, but MIB couldn't?
3) what was 'the incident'? what did the nuclear bomb do to the Island?
4) How did Jacob KNOW about the candidates, and how to build his magic mirror and how to go to them?
5) what is in the golden pool, and how does it turn MIB into Smokey? How did Smokey project the images to people like Ecko or Locke? What IS Smokey?

Yeah, I think my other thing about this episode was that: is that supposed to be the answer to the smoke monster question? Because it's not. It's an apparently sentient plume of black smoke that came out of the cave where the light was, where Brother's body was tossed. That doesn't say what or how or why it was.

And then, what about Mother Dearest (hee) saying that dead was something he'd never have to worry about? And then he's dead? That's another question. Are these dead people dead, or are they not? It's been repeatedly insinuated (oh, and flat-out stated) that Jacob and his Brother can't be killed, yet they both were. What? Riddle me that one, Batmanuel.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaalt

AvB pardon me if I am wrong, but I think it was stated that Jacob and MIB cannot kill each other ("I've made it so you can't hurt each other!") They can (and were) killed by others.

But Jacob either killed his brother or at the very least beat him unconscious before throwing him in the water outside the Magic Light Cave. Either way, he hurt him, and now he's dead. And sitting on the beach, Brother asked Mother, "What's dead?" and her response was, "Something you'll never have to worry about." (I feel like there are other examples, but I can't think of any right now.)

I just read some of that interview, and I don't think I like the way that Cuse and Lindelof kind of reduce the audience to a single entity, and treat it as though it doesn't know the difference between what it wishes the story would do, and what constitutes bad storytelling. Yeah, I got mad about the Adam and Eve thing, but in the long run, I know that was largely disappointment because it wasn't what *I* had envisioned. The fact remains, however, that there were aspects of it that were not well done. And the fact remains that it kind of sounds like they're being very condescending to parts of their audience. There's no need for that, really. We're not stupid children.

"And the fans would say that we jumped the shark. I love the idea that some fans are literally saying we jumped the shark last night! 119 hours in! We finally jumped the shark! So good! You guys are going to spare yourselves the agita of the final three hours of the show."

See? That's just condescending. I mean, sure, it's kind of condescending to say the show's jumped the shark, but if that's someone's opinion, why do ya gotta put them down like that?

Is it now that I mention that I think Ji Yeon is going to replace Jacob?

Mrs. Julien,

So there's 19 of us and 58 comments, and 58 - 19 = 39, and it is 3/14/10, so OUR numbers are:

3
10
14
19
39
58

Creepy, huh?

i'm lurking, cause that is what i do--mostly.

i will say that i agree with everything that coveredinbees said upstring. i don't like the thought of everything being wrapped up all nice and neat. i also refuse to read the interview and i try to avoid most outside information because Lost is one of the few shows that can surprise me, and i've enjoyed the hell outta the ride, so i want to see it through without too many preconceived ideas about where it's going to go or how it will get there.

i prefer to save my judgment until i've seen the whole story.

I only have one question I need answered:

Do the main characters find some sort of redemption and/or peace? ie, does Jack get over his daddy issues, does Sayid find a way to be happy with Nadia and not feel like a horrible person?

For me, this is what the show is about, and it's all I really care about. To me, the island and all of its mysteries are basically just an elaborate obstacle course the characters needed to go through to feel some sort of meaning or peace.
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That said, I will be fucking pissed if any of them turn out to be fucking angels.

Just to warn y'all, I don't know who is spreading them or where exactly they are, but I've read that there are now official series finale spoilers out there on the internet. If that's the case, I expect they'll only get more pervasive as we get closer to May 23rd. Hence, tread carefully! I expect Pajiba is safe, as I trust all of you, but I'm curtailing my LOST-related web-surfing immediately going forward.

official finale spoilers. drat. I'll keep a pact not to disseminate anything if I become infected. Good list of questions Yossarian. I would say that Eloise Hawking/Widmore are more perplexing than Charles Widmore. Isn't Charles just trying to tie a donkey wheel to the island's aether?

I don't know who suggested this show was going to light on the pseudo-science for the 6th season, but aether is totes pseudo-science. That's why I really do wish this cheeky "Answers" episode would have been aired as a Christmas special that way the Why of the island would actually stand a shot of adding mystique. Hell, it wasn't like Faraday's explanations of things cleared too much up. And I would have preferred Daniel Widmore dropping some knowledge rather than night-formulating.

If "It's a source of aether" becomes the only Why we get for the island, I, I, ....I swear I had something for that.

It's probably the lyrics Kolby posted on the recap thread, but I've been thinking about not being able to look directly into the light for in Plato's cave allegory, how the Roman etymolgy for bringer of light is gave us Lucifer, and how figs portends that rather than the AT giving all of the 'character' fans exactly what they want, the island dishes out the fates the characters deserve from their time there. I've never been a "this is hell" advocate but it does further support my feeling that the writers are giving up some ground to what the pop cultural impact has been for the show. I believe that whomever said that they are leaving mysteries unsolved so that this show gets talked about for hours after is correct. Whether its hours or years after will be determined by the strength or weakness of the finale?

Reading down the list of questions in this thread, I think that either you already know the answer to what you're asking and just don't want to accept that that's all you're ever gonna get; or that you're not going to get an answer at all. ---->How's that for a Darltonian enigma?

Count me in as another one here on this thread, it takes forever to read through it all before I can add my 2 cents. Overall I agree that no one wants everything wrapped up in a little bow, because that is heavy handed and lame. But we need to have a better ending than say "The Sporanos" to make us happy.

I am not too dead set on certain mysteries being resolved, and I think that there is no way to please even half of us, but I hope to be entertained.

Oh and I have to say:
Think about all of those terrible 80s movies that ended with a freeze frame of every character explaining what they did with the rest of their life. Terrible.
Posted by: mc at May 13, 2010 1:10 PM

I think that would be awesome to see for the Lost characters, as a sort of Easter Egg on the DVD or something.

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It may looks stupid, but I DO want to know why the fuck there was polar bears on the island. Fuck this, I want ALL THE ANSWERS ! Because to me, it's too easy to say "I'm not stupid, they can't answer to every little thing". Of course they can't, cause they waited until the 6th season to start revealing some answers ! You cannot just show fucking polar bears on this island without saying why they're there ! Everybody finds this ok cause they're biggers questions that needs to be answered. To me those bears are a big deal ! "It's just part of the mystery"... Fuck this.

golfclap 2u mz julien, for the lurker numbz :)
>>>>>>>>

i'm tryin to reserve judgment til it ends.

i must say though.. i have enjoyed the ride all these years. :)
but, i don't hold out too much hope that the creators will offer any respectful ending for the show's fans... i've been disappointed too many times b4.

Tiesto is amazing. I think the best tune he has is love comes again . I went to see him in holland. I wish he produced like that. He is the best i have ever heared

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