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Kill the Messenger


A Look at Politics and TV / Sarah Carlson

TV Reviews | October 23, 2008 | Comments (68)


In the spirit of the “kitchen sink” strategy in which the GOP is throwing everything and anything it can at Democrats to scrape out a win, an interesting game of “Kill the Messenger” is popping up all over TV.

A negative backlash against the RNC’s and the McCain-Palin campaign’s tactics of calling Sen. Barack Obama someone who pals around with terrorists hasn’t exactly helped Sen. John McCain in his polling numbers. So what to do? Claim that those on the left are making just-as-bad comments about the right. Some are even trying to now equate MSNBC as the liberal Fox News — it’s the socialist and terrorist-loving yin to Fox’s righteous and God-fearing yang. Even McCain made a dig at the cable news network and one of its mainstays, Keith Olbermann, at Oct. 14’s Alfred E. Smith dinner.

No matter the context or manner or tone in which a partisan view is expressed, a partisan view is a partisan view. You don’t like McCain and voice your reasons why that is so? Then that’s the same as those who voice their disliking of Obama, or the other way around. Both acts are partisan and evil and partisan. It doesn’t matter that the messages may be different; it matters that you try to smear the messenger.

The pundit who best defies this weak grasp at political straws is MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow, host of “The Rachel Maddow Show” and the newest media darling, and an interaction with The National Review columnist and former George W. Bush speechwriter David Frum on her show Oct. 13 best illustrates the fallacy of this strategy.

Mixing sarcasm, tongue-in-cheek humor and occasionally outright silliness, Maddow brings a much-needed fresh approach to cable news. Her intelligence and thoughtfulness back up her playfulness, she’s warm and gracious toward every guest, and her innate likeability should not cause one to underestimate her political know-how and intellect. In the “Who would you rather have a beer with?” contest (or down shots of Crown Royal whisky, Hillary) that all the presidential candidates pandered to, Maddow is the real winner. Simply put, she’s charming.

Maddow invited Frum on to discuss his publicly stated reservations and criticisms of the way McCain’s campaign has been run, this coming not long after the revelations that various (if few and deranged) Joe the Plumbers were yelling out “terrorist!” and “kill him!” at McCain-Palin rallies.


Maddow: You have publicly stated some reservations about John McCain and some criticisms of the way his campaign has run, and even though you’ve also said you will vote for him. One quote I wanted to ask about, you said that those who press this Ayers — William Ayers line of attack are ripping Republicans and conservatives into a fury that’s going to be very hard to calm after November. What do you mean by that and that word “fury?”

Frum: Well, I think you were talking through much of the show about the matter of tone in our politics. And yet, I think, we are seeing an intensification of some of the ugliness of tone that has been a feature in American politics in the last eight years. And this show, unfortunately, is itself an example of that problem, its heavy sarcasm and smearing and its disregard for a lot of the substantive issues that really are important.

And I would hate to see Republicans go probably into opposition sustaining this terrible cycle of un-seriousness about politics, turning it into a spectator sport. The party is going to have some important rebuilding to do. It’s going to do that in an intelligent way and we’re all going to have to do better than we’ve been doing, including in the past 40 minutes.

Maddow: Do you think that my tone on this show is equivalent to people calling Barack Obama somebody who pals around with terrorists, people yelling from the audience at McCain-Palin rallies, “Bomb Obama. Kill him. Off with his head. Traitor.” Are you accusing me of an equivalence in tone?

Frum: I don’t think that’s an important question. I think the question is, given the small plate of responsibility that you personally have, how do you manage that responsibility? The fact that other people fail in other ways is not an excuse for you failing in your way.


Maddow and Frum were talking past each other, with the former talking about hate speech overheard at political rallies and the latter talking about TV pundits poking fun at candidates. Those are two separate issues — and Frum has a valid point about TV pundits, most of whom I despise — but it was, first, childish of him to try and drag Maddow down into the mud instead of discuss his own criticisms of his own party and, second, wrong of him to equate Maddow’s style with the negativity overheard at recent political events. Conservatives calling liberals “Communists” (looking at you, McCain’s brother) is not the same as Maddow cracking up at and pointing out the ridiculousness of the return of the “Communist” attack.

Frum pleaded for more thoughtfulness in political debate, and Maddow agreed that everyone — left, right, and center — bemoans the tone of modern politics. “But I sense also that there’s a devotion to coming up with a sort of false equivalence,” she said, “the idea that bringing up John McCain’s experience in the Keating Five, for example, is somehow equivalent to calling Barack Obama somebody who pals around with terrorists.”

Frum went on to quote Mahatma Gandhi on how one should be the change they want to see, which is true, but again, a different argument all together. He’d only be correct if in fact Maddow were yelling whatever the anti-conservative equivalent to “terrorist” would be. She’s not — and she’s actually one of the few broadcasters to call a spade a spade and label the outbursts as blatant and ugly racism. Her moving reaction to a Georgia woman’s “Bomb Obama!” rant was to ask that woman just what kind of bombing she was referring to, and went on to list the numerous and deplorable crimes against blacks in the South, from church bombings to murders. As a gay woman and former AIDS activist, she isn’t indifferent to bigotry.

Maddow is, in fact, the change she likely wants to see on TV — a strong, witty woman whose show is skyrocketing in the ratings because it’s one of the smartest things on the air. On Monday, the New York Times reported that “The Rachel Maddow Show” had averaged a higher rating among 25-54-year-olds than CNN’s “Larry King Live” for 13 of the then-25 nights she had been host — making MSNBC competitive in the 9 p.m. time slot for the first time in a decade by doubling the channel’s viewers.

Of course, no cable news show should be taken as the be-all, end-all authority in news. Maddow’s show is an analysis, as are most other shows, and yes, hers is based on her liberal views — and that’s OK. People flock to things that reflect their worldview, that remind them they aren’t alone in their beliefs. It’s a matter of knowing where the balance is — knowing that you’re watching commentary, not the stately nightly news report — and people on both sides of issues mistake partisan programs as being the gospel truth. Whether certain networks on certain sides cater to that ignorance more profoundly than others is another topic.

Maddow’s style is akin to Jon Stewart’s, minus the crudeness, only she doesn’t have the luxury of being able to insist hers is just a comedy show. Humor is a great bridge-builder, delivering a way for viewers to handle heavy topics without wanting to slit one’s wrists. When Frum said he wanted a more intelligent and grown-up discussion of issues, Maddow had a response: “I agree with you on intelligent. I don’t necessarily agree with you on grown up. I think there’s room for all sorts of different kinds of discourse including satire, including teasing, including humor. There’s a lot of different ways to talk about stuff, and Americans absorb things in a lot of different ways.”

If Frum or others don’t like her, that’s fine — but they shouldn’t for a second think she’s just another hack who memorizes DNC or RNC talking points, and they shouldn’t equate her playful style as being just as damaging as hate-filled speech. Her message is different, and if opponents want to attack her, they may just have to stick to grown-up and intelligent arguments about policy issues — tackling the message, not the messenger. What a change of pace.

Sarah Carlson has a front-row seat to the decline of the newspaper industry and lives in Alabama with her overly excitable Welsh Corgi.


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Comments

I appreciate all the recent Rachel love, and while it is well-deserved - so is her thanks to Keith Olbermann. Anyone who has been watching Keith for some time knows that Rachel's show is basically a continuation of Keith's; of the same style and vein. In fact, I believe it was Keith's idea to give Rachel a show in the 9 pm slot, and the two of them are winning the cable news ratings during those hours. Give the Keithster his due!

Posted by: Cindy at October 23, 2008 3:25 PM

Despite the fact that I really enjoy Olbermann and Maddow, I watch them in the full knowledge that they are decidedly partisan. Where I differentiate them from Fox is that they both admit to their personal feelings about politics on air and I have yet to hear either of them claim to be "fair and balanced". The Fox crew on the other hand are equally partisan, in fact viciously so but claim to be just covering the news in a "fair and balanced manner."
CNN is a stinking turd and definitely pro-GOP. I will have nothing to do with them until Lou Dobbs dies and goes to his own personal hell where thousands of illegal immigrants pull his pubes out one by one with rusty tweezers.
I do wish there were an objective TV news outlet where one could get a sanity check (there are times when I want to see if Olbermann isn't playing a issue a little too much). There's always the News Hour on PBS but that's one hour out of the day.

Posted by: PaddyDog at October 23, 2008 3:32 PM

I actually thought that, while misguided and on spin-patrol, Frum was one of the more eloquent, thoughtful republican speakers I've seen on TV of late. That was actually a great segment - I found the video here.

But you're right, they aren't really talking about the same thing, and that hangs on Frum, since he was asked a direct question and, in Palinesque fashion, simply answered a different one.

That said, just the image of Rachel Maddow makes me smile a little. I love her.

Posted by: TK at October 23, 2008 3:35 PM

Yay Rachel! Your post definitely does her justice! Thanks!

Posted by: VeinsRHiways at October 23, 2008 3:37 PM

Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow have become regular TV viewing in our household. I started when things were not looking so good for Obama after the RNC convention, and I just needed a different perspective. It's definitely refreshing to have views similar to your own reflected back at you.

Ok, is anyone else bothered by the fact that Rachel often talks out of only one side of her mouth (the right side)? Sometimes I find it so darn distracting.

Posted by: tamatha at October 23, 2008 3:42 PM

Rachel Maddow is on my top 5 list at this point, I LOVE her! She is also on my list of women I'll kidnap if I ever come across them in New York City, which before only consisted of Tina Fey (and for a brief stint Jennifer Garner while she was doing a show on Broadway).

That makes me sound like so much more of a stalker than I really am.

Rachel also has the honor of being the only actual lesbian on my list

Posted by: Masey at October 23, 2008 3:52 PM

I, like others, thought Frum had some valid points, but the fact that he was on Maddow's show and so quickly attacked her specifically (rather than answering her question) told me he only went on for that purpose.

Ok, is anyone else bothered by the fact that Rachel often talks out of only one side of her mouth (the right side)? Sometimes I find it so darn distracting.

I think some of that is because she smiles a lot on her show, even as she's talking, and her smiles tend to start on the right. Personally I don't mind it, but we can't really help what annoys us.

Posted by: Todd at October 23, 2008 4:00 PM

viciousness, partisanship, etc. is all in the eye of the beholder.

Every election, the left claims that the right is racist and hates poor people and women, and that the right's candidate is stupid.

The right claims that the left wants to turn american into socialism and hedonism.

but to claim that either party is worse or better than the other is, frankly, childish. I can point to outrageous comments by either party that are just as bad.

I watch the left claim this about the right and the right claim this about the left and wonder, do the people making these claims really believe the claim (i.e., that somehow "my party" or "my candidate" is running purely on the issues, does not sling mud, does not lie about his/her positions or the other side's positions - while the other guy is mean and evil)?

If so, it a foolish belief.

Posted by: Great Banana at October 23, 2008 4:14 PM

Read this today:

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2008-10-05-1.html

Interesting article, even if I'm not entirely sure it's 100% correct.

Posted by: DJSoulglo at October 23, 2008 4:15 PM

Nice for Maddow I wish her well.

But, I'm waaaay past trying to have an intelligent debate with a bunch of fetus worshipers (after it's born they don't give a rat's ass), racists, torturers, liars and chicken hawks who are more than willing to sacrifice the life young men in a fake war as long as it's not one of THEIR kids. These dirtbags even tried to "swift-boat" McCain!! Remember that?

We are way past civility, the only way to fight these scum is giving it as good as they do.

Cry me a fucking river.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at October 23, 2008 4:28 PM

Ok, is anyone else bothered by the fact that Rachel often talks out of only one side of her mouth (the right side)?

Yes. But she's so purty and smart, I can forgive.

Posted by: Cindy at October 23, 2008 4:29 PM

Great Banana, I don't necessarily believe that my side is righteous and pure. I don't necessarily believe that they are running purely on the issues or does not sling mud.

But, and I mean this honestly and literally, you can bet your fucking ass I believe that the other side is evil. Not all of them, perhaps. But Bush? Cheney? Rove? McCain?

EEEEEEEEVVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLL

Posted by: TK at October 23, 2008 4:34 PM

Great Banana: There is honor and a great deal of common sense in an insistence on neutrality and non-partisanship, but when the situation is decidedly non-neutral that stance becomes more harmful than the worst partisan rabidness. Refusing to take a side is not the same thing as being an unbiased neutral observer. A neutral observer will decide based on the merits of a case without preconceptions, he/she will not simply refuse to decide based on the preconception that all parties are equally flawed.

In my opinion, and I know what those are worth on the internet, the McCain campaign has run the most underhanded and vicious campaign I have ever seen in my life, combined with an utter incapacity to lead at any level. The venom spewed by the McCain campaign sickens me, and the people with whom that venom resonates terrify me. The Obama campaign has stayed above the belt and by and large stayed on point with issues and relevant points. The Obama campaign has presented nuanced and well-reasoned opinions and positions on the issues of the day. There are of course always exceptions, but those are the general trends of the two campaigns.

You may of course ignore my opinion, I am far from an unbiased neutral observer. After all, I am a registered independent who voted for George W. Bush in 2000. I am clearly nothing more than a liberal hack.

Posted by: stipe42 at October 23, 2008 4:37 PM

So DJ, you criticized them for being intolerant after calling them racists, torturers, fetus worshipers, liars, and chicken hawks. Right. My god, when will you learn that you Pajibans are biased as all fuck. Your smarmy, and completely unable to see flaws in your plan. Fuck you, your every bit as bias as them, and like them you will never admit it. The only reason that the complaints aren't as brutal is because the democrats are days away from becoming the supreme authority in Washington, they have no reason to so they're staying calm. Even in the unlikely event that Obama loses, they're going to become far more powefrul in congress. Fuck, everyone hates the right now, they're out of power, it's easy now. I hated these bastards before it was cool, don't come out now and act like your rebels, you pretentious cocks. And by the way, MSNBC is what FOX would be if it were liberal, Olberman and Maddow are pretentious windbags that have nothing to distinguish themselves from O'Reily and Hannity other than political affiliation. Fuck them, fuck you, and fuck cable news.

Posted by: George at October 23, 2008 4:54 PM

Well said, stipe42.

Not-so-well said, George.

Posted by: Todd at October 23, 2008 5:07 PM

I actually really liked what Frum had to say overall, even though I bet I disagree with him quite a bit politically. Particularly I liked the last paragraph quoted. I never watched the start of the show before he started commenting, but I think it's completely valid to call out the media commentators in general for playing right into the finger pointing that the parties want.

What he's saying is look, it doesn't matter who said the worst thing about the other party; if you're out there talking about bullshit that has nothing to do with the issues, then you're doing the people you purport to serve a disservice. If your primary function is to come up with a wittier way to shit out or shit on a party line, then what are you doing pretending to be a serious journalist distilling complex world events into a form that people can understand? Seriously, the average voter has no fucking clue what forces are at work behind the economic and political situations here and abroad. Commentators should help you understand, not be a warm blanket of your own ignorance to wrap yourself in. It's like most baseball analysts. They can talk about how to throw the ball or execute a certain play, but they are just not qualified to discuss why some teams beat others, which is why they resort to platitudes about effort and chemistry. Meanwhile there's a segment of the country that DOES understand, but they are marginalized as basement-dwelling nerds (slowly changing, and by Godtopus may it happen in politics as well).

Changing the arc and the velocity of the poo doesn't make it not poo-flinging. Flinging fresher poo is still flinging poo. Every show I see on TV is just poo flinging dressed up or dressed down and it stinks. I want to smash my TV when I see the lineups on Fox News yelling at each other with no intention of discussing issues, let alone in a reasoned manner supported by facts. Do a little research with the rest of your day when you're not on the air. Take some time to read books by people who determine what is going on for a living. Come back and help us cut through the bullshit instead of smearing on another layer.

Posted by: Eep at October 23, 2008 5:38 PM

George is upset. May I offer an unbiased opinion on the candidates?

McCain
Pros: knows the system. He'd probably be an aggressive leader and decent protector of national security. He would represent your country in the 'star spangled' manner you've come to expect, and maintain the 'greatest nation on earth' narrative nicely. Lots of worthwhile experience, strong character, values generally acceptable to the general public.
Cons: chose an unacceptably unprepared running mate. He has veered into hard-right territory to secure votes. Campaign doesn't stay on topic, and often resorts to denigrating opponent instead of addressing and defining approach to emerging topics. Age-related concerns.

Obama
Pros: addresses issues as completely as possible, directly to voters. Difficult to provoke. Unafraid of trying new approaches. Has successfully positioned his campaign as a complete change from the current administration. Chose a practical and experienced running mate. Projects a candid and trustworthy image. Detailed plans, clearly expressed.
Cons: young, inexperienced. Proposes concepts (especially finance related) that run counter to traditional American values and traditions. Is the first black candidate (a challenge to many voters, for a variety of reasons). Untested in the 'world stage' political arena. Occasionally seems naive. An unknown.

There. As unbiased as I could make it, but by no means complete. Feel free to add.

Also - no matter who 'wins' - they are starting out of the gate in pure hell. There is no way to have a successful term in office when dealt with such a shit storm of financial ruin. No matter what, you'll be mopping up for a half century at least. I hope the winning candidate has the balls to jail Bush and company.

Posted by: replica at October 23, 2008 5:48 PM

So DJ, you criticized them for being intolerant after calling them racists, torturers, fetus worshipers, liars, and chicken hawks.
------------------------------------------------

I was the one who said that, fucko.

And you bet your ass I'm biased, you people are no different than brown shirts/communist cabals/taliban ALL cut from the same cloth.
You USE democracy and free speech to SHIT ALL OVER it. You use it to your advantage and ends and then cry foul when others speak out. Ultimately the only "democracy, free speech and freedom" you believe are those the work FOR YOU. The others are of no use to you.

Oh, and you are all dumb and insular, intellectual inbreeds who HATE critical thinking and those who question your simplistic BULLshit.

blow me

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at October 23, 2008 5:51 PM

"Claim that those on the left are making just-as-bad comments about the right. Some are even trying to now equate MSNBC as the liberal Fox News"

That is just a very silly thing to say. MSNBC is way, way, more to the left then FOX is to the right. I would say FOX and CNN balance each other. MSNBC is balanced by what the left pretend FOX is. I only wish there was a channel that far to the right. To counter MSNBC you would have to have a news channel with Rush and Coulter as the main news anchors.

Posted by: EricD at October 23, 2008 6:06 PM

To George: Have you ever actually watched Olbermann or Maddow? I mean, really WATCHED them? I've taken it to the other side. I've watched Bill O'Reilly and tried to relax and make myself listen and accept. And it's impossible. It's impossible because he's so rude to everyone on his show, he's so full of himself and flap-mouthed that he can't keep a thought inside of his head, regardless of racist, sexist undertones that might spew out. And I've watched MSNBC with a discerning eye, poking holes, taking things with a grain of salt. And with some of the broadcasters it's very easy. With Olbermann and Maddow, it's decidedly more difficult.

What sets them apart, and allows them to rise above the shallow pandering of Fox News's garbage, is that they hold a high level of respect. It's what drives them and allows them to continue in their way without sounding hateful. Take Keith Olbermann's "Special Comments." Recently, he gave a comment to the "anti-American" releases coming from the McCain campaign, and in the midst of his discussion, he spoke directly to John McCain: "Senator McCain, where are you? I disagree with you on virtually every major point of policy and practice, and yet I do not think you 'anti-America.' I would not hesitate to join you in time of crisis in defense of this country." His opinions are not bi-partisan, but he gives a chance to both sides, and he respects them, and Maddow is as a student of that idea, in much the way that Olbermann is a student of Edward R. Murrow. Try to ask the same of O'Reilly and Hannity. I assure you, you will not succeed.

Posted by: Audiosuede at October 23, 2008 6:15 PM

I've watched Bill O'Reilly and tried to relax and make myself listen and accept. And it's impossible. It's impossible because he's so rude to everyone on his show, he's so full of himself and flap-mouthed that he can't keep a thought inside of his head, regardless of racist, sexist undertones that might spew out.

This I must say I absolutely agree with.

Posted by: EricD at October 23, 2008 6:22 PM

In reference to Keith Olbermann though, his sayiing ""Senator McCain, where are you? I disagree with you on virtually every major point of policy and practice, and yet I do not think you 'anti-America.' I would not hesitate to join you in time of crisis in defense of this country." is complete bullshit.

How can you consider someone else unAmeican when the very concept is foreign to you? And he has failed so far in almost every opportunity to join in a time of crisis to defend our country. Where are any positive stories about Iraq? Any stories fully explaining the financial crisis and how it orginated? Anything on Obama's past even approaching what they have covered on Palin or even Joe Wurzelbacher? They guy is a partisan hack. Compared to him even Dan Rather is a model of unbiased.

Posted by: EricD at October 23, 2008 6:30 PM

Replica, that may well be the most eloquent post in this thread. Thank you.

It does not matter who wins. Everything is so screwed now that nothing, NOTHING, will get fixed. We will be dealing with the ramifications of the last 8 years for the next 8 years.

FYI, I am an independent and do not support Obama or McCain.

Posted by: Melody at October 23, 2008 6:52 PM

Yes, I have watched Olberman and Murrow, but I've never said that O'Reiley and Hannity weren't assholes. They're bloated, retarded, so fucking stupid I can barely watch clips of their shows or listen to their voices assholes, but that doesn't make Olberman and Murrow any less of an asshole. Listen asshole, just because you agree with someone doesn't make them any less of an asshole, their just assholes you agree with. All people like Olberman and O'Reiley are doing is increasing the divide, painting the other guys to look like the Antichrist, a festering ignorance, and shitty journalism.

Besides, this site referred to Obama as the Messiah on the Roger Ebert post a few weeks ago, there's no fucking way that you can say that and then try to defend yourselves as unbiased. All politicians are going to disappoint, and most of them are incompetent on both sides. The next few years are going to be unbearable no matter who gets in, and the last thing we need is a talentless journalist increasing the divide.

I want everyone who reads this post to never again watch incompetent hacks of journalism take editorials and pass it off as news. Go out of your way to get rid of them. Make your own fair programs on the Internet, get up enough money, and get on TV. Boycott these douche-bags. Stand up and let them know your mad as hell and wont stand for such partisan behavior and stupidity.

For those of you curious, I'm incredibly agitated about such issues.

Posted by: George at October 23, 2008 7:20 PM

"Palinesque" is my new favorite word. That is all.

Posted by: ciji at October 23, 2008 7:41 PM

George:

Y-O-U-apostrophe-R-E means YOU ARE

Y-O-U-R means YOUR

You won't be taken seriously until you learn how to spell. That it all.

Posted by: Rachelopoly at October 23, 2008 8:09 PM

I love watching really biased pundits. Of course I read up on the issues myself and make my own decisions but the arguing and the spin are usually pretty funny. Its horrifying that some people watch these pundits and take them seriously but hey, its entertainment.

Posted by: becks at October 23, 2008 8:10 PM

It just makes me sad, very sad, that anyone would call another American anti-American. The beauty of America, the vision of the founding fathers,so to speak, is that we agree to disagree. In this way we are all very pro-America. It could just be that my vision of "America" is different than yours. For some, fighting in a war is the most pro-American thing one can do. For others, its is exercising the right to protest that war that makes one pro-American.

We can never have unbiased news because there is no such thing as an unbiased person. The most we can hope for is a diversity of viewpoints so that citizens can be well informed. Unfortunately people tend to only watch those who reflect their own views, and increasingly, reflect them back in the most reductionist and vulgar manner possible.

Could be why I don't watch TV news.

Posted by: MissSmilla at October 23, 2008 8:23 PM

i almost spit my rum and coke onto my cpu screen when I saw somebody claim that Olberman is a reporter in the mold of Edward R Murrow.

Thats about 44769 bridges too far.

Fox News- Hacks
MSNBC (and yes this includes the lefts new poster girl Maddow) - hacks
McCain- hack
Obama- 99.9 % likely he is just another hack

so quit freaking out people and turning politics into team sports, they are all a bunch of corrupt buffoons who we end up hating after 8 years and then voting in the other side.

Posted by: dylanj at October 23, 2008 9:07 PM

People who respond to others arguments by critiquing their grammar and spelling are the biggest douchebags ever.

I'm looking at you Rachelopoly

Posted by: Anti-GrammarNazi at October 23, 2008 9:16 PM

People who respond to others' arguments by critiquing their grammar and spelling are the biggest douchebags ever.

I'm looking at you Rachelopoly

Posted by: Anti-GrammarNazi at October 23, 2008 9:17 PM

Anything on Obama's past

Really? Are folks still on that?

Let's ignore for a second all the muckraking done to him when he was going against Clinton, all the muckraking done against him when he got the nomination, and all the muckraking against him now. Let's conveniently ignore all the supposed controversy behind his friends, family, associates, and people he have have looked at funny. Let's ignore the terrorist fist jab, the crazy reverend, the missing flag pin, and the questions about his citizenship and parentage. Lets ignore all the stuff people have tried to pin on him and failed. Let's ignore how only a few months ago, nearly any and every conspiracy theory about the man was given attention by nearly every outlet in the MSM.

Could it possibly be, just possibly, that there isn't anything there? I mean, considering, for a moment, how he is so new to politics (another very common claim), then could it be possible that he just hasn't done anything dirty yet? Or maybe a real shocker: that he just ain't dirty?

Forgive my naivete, but I was under the impression that we were to base our choices on fact and confirmed information, and not suspicion and cynicism. I may not have all the fancy learnin' some may have (and who I expect will bring to bear against my foolish response), but I was under the impression that it was okay to have a little goddamn hope that maybe, just maybe, a decent guy could wiggle his way through all the party politics and finagle himself a spot as President. And right now, that decent guy is, in my opinion, Obama.

It is discouraging to see so many take pride in not being involved. I get that you were burned. I get that your candidate didn't take off in the polls. I get it. I truly do. But why act like withdrawing is such a stand? And why knock us who actually like one of the candidates that made it? I mean, really.

You can vote however you wish, or not vote at all. That is your prerogative. But don't act like you are somehow rebelling or somehow better for being "independent". You made a choice, and one that while commendable in its own way, does not earn you exclusive rights to being right.

I think a guy running for office can possibly change things, or at least not make them any worse. He just so happens to be part of a large long-standing political party. I actually think things can and will change for the better. Excuse me for being an optimist.

Posted by: Vermillion at October 23, 2008 10:25 PM

Frankly, I'm amazed at how far we have sunk, WE have become the terrorists; WE are the ones torturing folks; WE are the ones running secret prisons; WE are the ones branding our own "un-whatevers." Is that the America we wanted?

Did you win the war on terrorism when you transformed into something worse?

It doesn't feel like my imagination has gone wild anymore when I feel like this country will be rounding up its own people and putting them into concentration camps in 20 years. All because of a dumb populace WILLING to follow a bunch of scumbags.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at October 23, 2008 10:38 PM

I never claimed to be a grammar or spelling genius, that has nothing to do with the fact that their still liars and frauds. Thank you anti-GrammarNazi.

Posted by: George at October 23, 2008 11:00 PM

Frankly, I'm amazed at how far we have sunk, WE have become the terrorists; WE are the ones torturing folks; WE are the ones running secret prisons; WE are the ones branding our own "un-whatevers." Is that the America we wanted?

Have become? Which part of any of that do you think did not happen during WWII?

Posted by: EricD at October 23, 2008 11:02 PM

Somebody actually watches MSNBC?
They've been the joke of cable news for years now. And you think some lame ass ex sports anchor and whiny femi-nazi is gonna jack the ratings up.
Paaaleaazzz! Open up the cleavage Rachel, then the ratings will go up, in the 18-35 male demographic.....what a bunch of dumbshits responding to this review

Both McCain and Obama could fuck up a wet dream.

Posted by: Mr. Bojangles at October 23, 2008 11:09 PM

I just want to know this Slim- if you hate the current solution to fighting people sworn to kill your fellow countrymen then present me with a better one.

And something that could feasibly work.

Posted by: dylanj at October 23, 2008 11:17 PM

MSNBC is awful. Olbermann and Maddow make me ashamed to be a Democrat. I still can't believe Olbermann's pathetic attempt to defend Obama's position on that wiretapping bill. Anyone who is willing to do that with a straight face on national television and still claims to be a Dem is a hack in its worst form.

I can't believe people watch that shit. I've always hated Fox News, but I never thought the Dems would create a similar monster. Sigh. It's just embarrassing.

Posted by: kayla at October 23, 2008 11:26 PM

Who are these people "sworn" to kill me?

Why don't we start by getting the fuck out of a country that didn't do shit to us?

How about we actually deploy our guys where the "terrorists" really are and we finish it? And then we bring them home?

How about we stop torturing.. oops!! sorry..."waterboarding"...folks We are supposed to be the good guys WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO FUCKING DO THAT! Can you understand that?

How about we start looking into how to stop screwing people over so they're not looking to blow our fucking heads off? Starting with calling Israel out on their shit.

How about we stop acting like we own the fucking world?

And here's a clue the way we are doing it now ain't workin.' Aaand we lost our moral high ground. We are weaker militarily, economically and as a nation.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at October 23, 2008 11:33 PM

I don't believe I've ever read that anyone on this site has claimed to be unbiased George. We are all biased to one extent or another. The difference is that the majority of us are right.

BSlim, I think that is a very accurate statement. The world wants to love America, but it's kind of hard to love the bully at school who always wants your lunch money, then kicks your ass if you don't give it to him.

Posted by: Admin11 at October 24, 2008 12:11 AM

Have become? Which part of any of that do you think did not happen during WWII?

Well, the prisons weren't really secret then. They were fairly out in the open and obvious. Oh, and they never bothered to lie about the racial profiling aspect of it, either. No "we jailed them because they are terrorism suspects". They balls out said they arrested those folks because they were Japanese.

But yeah, when Superman is saying its okay to "slap a Jap" (with SAVINGS BONDS!!!!!), the Greatest Generation doesn't hold much high ground.

Posted by: Vermillion at October 24, 2008 12:21 AM

I can't stand David Frum. The only reason he is sounding anywhere near sane is that he recognizes the GOP is heading to oblivion. As a Canadian, I am truly sorry that abortion came to your country and coined the "Axis of Evil" phrase for your idiot president.
He makes asymetrical moral equivalency look like an Olympic sport.
He should apologize for his part in promoting neoconservatism just like Francis Fukuyama has (well, sort of) and then retire into obscurity.

Posted by: Farfalina at October 24, 2008 1:06 AM

I wish I could find these neoconservatives that everyone is always talking about. As far as I can tell the Republican party is exactly what the Democratic party was 30 years ago. There is no home for conservatives in America right now.

Posted by: EricD at October 24, 2008 1:19 AM

Sorry. Make that 40 years ago. Damn time and its never ending tick, tick, tick.

Posted by: EricD at October 24, 2008 1:21 AM

Wish I could vote in this election. Alternatively, I wish the outcome of this election wasn't going to have such a huge impact over here. You guys aren't just voting for your president you know...

Posted by: general rhubarb at October 24, 2008 1:45 AM

Too much stuff to try to respond individually, so I generalize.

I've said this before in political threads (and I suspect I'll be saying it again), but spelling and grammar do matter when you are trying to express an opinion that will, by the nature of the discussion, advocate one position or denigrate another. Language is the principal tool of politics. If you haven't taken the time to educate yourself in the proper use of your chosen (or imposed, doesn't really matter) language, then why should anyone think that the political opinion you wind up expressing so poorly is any more considered? In other words, if you show ignorance in the use of language why should anyone think you're otherwise some kind of political savant? Could happen, but the context makess it seem unlikely.

Grammar issues aside, anachronism (like Joe Biden's recent FDR on TV gaffe) and embellishment can be downright fatal to an argument -- no matter how otherwise well-considered the stated opinion might be.

Yes, I have watched Olberman and Murrow...

Edward R. Murrow died in 1965 while Keith Olbermann's broadcast career didn't begin until 1981 (and his political broadcasting career until 2003). Thanks, Wikipedia. So George here is either an historian, or old as fuck, or...well, you figure it out. I choose to retain an open mind in the hope that there will be a compelling response such that I will literally tremble with forgiveness over my mean-spirited insinuation...

Meanwhile, some decent points have been made on both sides (as usual), although Pajiba being Vajiba the liberal viewpoint tends to predominate. I adore Rachel Maddow and detest Sean Hannity, as is my prerogative. I don't turn to either as a source of unbiased, unfiltered news -- the rest of you can do as you damn well please. I actually liked Vermillion's post best. Even an old white guy like me is capable of retaining both hope and reason and coming to the conclusion that intellect in the service of constructive change is still possible and preferrable and produceable.

Obama / Biden 2008

Posted by: Che Grovera at October 24, 2008 4:32 AM

I see- we should abandon the only democracy in the Middle East to "call them on their shit"- its this kind of simplistic attitude that keeps me on the sidelines of most of these debates. Personally I never thought America was team "good guys". Look around you, everything this country has at the moment has come from the use of power. Our land that was stolen from Indians was taken from Mexico in a war or bought from Russians and French who stole the land from Indians. Our early economic system was propped up by using free slave labor. The problem is when people like Slim start thinking this kind of behavior is inherent only to Americans. Its the same everywhere, when England was the major power in the world did they have a really nice reputation? No, same for Russia in the Cold War and now, same for China or any country with any semblance of power. They have all committed acts that fly in the face of the values they proclaim as national traits.

Another thing Slim, I didnt ask you to list your complaints with how we deal with terrorism, I don't need soundbites about not "screwing people over" I need real solutions. Like when you have a terrorist in custody and you feel information he has will help save lives we should ..... instead of waterboarding him.

Or instead of trying to have some kind of misguided sympathy for the dictatorships and theocracies in the Middle East we should turn the same eye that is so critical of our own system to theirs. Unelected clerics who espouse the destruction of nations filled with millions of people, oppressed women, gays and minorities shouldn't really be a concern of the American liberal left should they? Yet somehow you feel we are unfair with them and too nice to the only country in the region that has a worldview even somewhat compatible with the values of the left.

Posted by: dylanj at October 24, 2008 9:32 AM

anyway- I'm going to jump on the Vermillion bandwagon and just hope Obama turns out to be even half of what he could become. I'm cynical enough to believe he wont be anything different but he's getting my vote simply because there is a chance he is going to be a fantastic leader and that's better than the alternative.

Posted by: dylanj at October 24, 2008 9:46 AM

Masey, I think you've got quite the possibility for a MiniDev there.

"The Five People I'd Kidnap If You Ever Ran Into Them."

5. Steven Spielberg - Rapture of Indy or not, he's still my hero. That, and he'll lead me to Lucas.

4-3. Alec Baldwin/Tina Fey - You need both of them there for things to truly pop.

2. Danny Elfman - Imagine your life with a theme written by Danny Elfman.

1. Anne Hathaway - She just seems like she'd be fun to talk to/stare at for hours without saying a word.

(And none of these kidnappings will involve wells, baskets, or lotion. Just wanted to clear that up.)

Posted by: Mike R. at October 24, 2008 11:08 AM

Boy, che, do I ever disagree with that. It's important to the person doing the expressing to use proper grammar on the chance that they will be ignored because their grammar is poor, but if you base your opinion of someone's logic on whether they end sentences with prepositions, you're cheating yourself.

And also incorrect grammatically. There's nothing wrong with ending sentences with prepositions.

Posted by: Eep at October 24, 2008 12:18 PM

Interesting article, even if I'm not entirely sure it's 100% correct.

uh, that article is a giant stinking load of crap.

As far as I can tell the Republican party is exactly what the Democratic party was 30 years ago. There is no home for conservatives in America right now.

you could always vote Libertarian, EricD, they're half-spot-on-right and half-batshit-crazy-in-totally-new-ways.

Posted by: Soylent Green is Sheeple at October 24, 2008 5:20 PM

It's important to the person doing the expressing to use proper grammar on the chance that they will be ignored because their grammar is poor, but if you base your opinion of someone's logic on whether they end sentences with prepositions, you're cheating yourself.

Posted by: Eep at October 24, 2008 12:18 PM

Hmmm. I'd probably disagree with me too if I read what I wrote the way I think you are reading it, Eep. I'm not advocating dismissing someone out of hand just because they make a grammatical error. Any argument can be taken to adsurd extremes. Rather, my point is that a person who expresses himself in an ignorant manner makes it easier for his argument to be discounted. At the very least it's a distraction; at worst it can be difficult -- or even impossible -- for the argument to be understood. Proper spelling and grammar are no assurance of clarity or reason, but they are an indicator of someone's education and intelligence. What you as a listener (or reader) do with that information is entirely your business; in a forum such as this one I happen to think it's fair game.

Posted by: Che Grovera at October 24, 2008 6:53 PM

Okay, I spelled Maddow wrong, sorry. That was my fault. Still, fuck her. And I'm probably younger than you, I was born in 1992. And they're still assholes. Maybe Obama will be a good president, but even if that becomes reality, Olberman and Maddow will still be biased assholes feeding the same, yet polar opposite flame, of O'Reiley and Hannity.

Posted by: George at October 24, 2008 10:33 PM

I did misread it. I'd like to think that the wording can be taken either way, but it certainly fits what you're saying. Looks like there's no disagreement here, carry on.

Posted by: Eep at October 25, 2008 3:04 AM

And I'm probably younger than you, I was born in 1992.

Posted by: George at October 24, 2008 10:33 PM

Fine. Gloves off, snot-nosed punk asswipe.

I don't believe any of your bullshit, George, and I am calling bullshit on the lot of it. If you really are 16, then kudos for hanging out here -- but stick to your classes because they clearly haven't all sunk in yet. You're also one opinionated little asshole. I can't even begin to fathom what life experience you could have had that would lead to such strongly held opinions at your age as the ones you've been sharing (and yes, I did go back and re-read all of them). Frankly, I don't buy it. If you're 16 then you're a noisy fraud, and if you aren't 16 then...same thing.

Oh, and I was a better writer at 16 then you'll probably be in your lifetime. How do I know this? Simple, really. Judging by the tone of what you've shared, you pretty much believe you already know it all. I don't sense one iota of inquisitiveness or doubt in anything you've written so far. That makes you unteachable, lad. I'm sad for you, actually, because you aren't unintelligent -- just belligerent as hell and doubly annoying.

Posted by: Che Grovera at October 25, 2008 9:52 AM

Question for Eep/Che:

What about fatties? I mean...how am I supposed to take anything Micheal Moore conveys seriously when that stack of tires can't figure out the fucking food pyramid?

Doesn't Moore's reckless disregard for his health tell us that he has a few screws loose?

Posted by: brutus at October 26, 2008 11:50 AM

Brutus, even though Michael Moore annoys the bejeebus out of me, I was about to give you hell for that ignorant-sounding comment. Then I saw you rooting for Carrot Top (oops, no pun intended) in the redhead comment thread.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's satire, funny guy.

George, kiddo, I'm with Che. If you can't see anything beyond black and white on an issue, then you've got some serious learning to do. Sadly, too many people don't grow out of that certainty. Oh, and by the way--you spelled O'Reilly and Olbermann wrong too.

Posted by: meaux at October 26, 2008 12:54 PM

Note to Brutus, re Michael Moore. You can't argue with the man's facts so you call him fat. I take it you were not on your college debate team.

What I like about Maddow is that she can intelligently debate someone on the other side of the aisle without out 'calling them fat' or attacking them personally. And she doesn't cower when they attack her personally, she calls them out on it like she did with Frum and has to daily with Buchanan.

I grew tired of cable news when the only voice of the left on cable news was the wimpy Alan Colmes who takes an ass pounding from that troglodyte Hannity every night. Olbermann and Maddow bring a fresh perspective. Olbermann may be a bit more abrasive but he's generally right on the money and fun to watch. Plus he always has the inimitable Jonathan Turley on as a guest to sound the alarm on our civil liberties.

Maddow's approach is less abrasive and fun in a different way. She takes a more laid back amused approach to the political personalities and gives the issues the serious attention they need. And she always treats her guests with respect even when she's shooting down their weak arguments.

Maddow is great fun, it's so much nicer than watching the awful prison 'lock up docs' they aired after Olbermann.

Posted by: Clevelandchick at October 26, 2008 1:18 PM

Question for Eep/Che:

What about fatties? I mean...how am I supposed to take anything Micheal Moore conveys seriously when that stack of tires can't figure out the fucking food pyramid?

Doesn't Moore's reckless disregard for his health tell us that he has a few screws loose?

Posted by: brutus at October 26, 2008 11:50 AM

You are a completely new and unknown commodity to me, brutus, although the adorable meaux seems to recognize you so I'll give you an additional smidgen of benefit of the doubt.

I'm struggling to understand your reason for arbitrarily bringing up Michael Moore in a thread about Rachel Maddow. Then you further confuse matters by calling me and Eep out, again for no apparent reason other than to be provocative (as far as I can tell). Your motivation for wanting to hear my opinion on this -- or any other -- subject eludes me at the moment.

Like meaux, I catch a faint of whiff of satire about your post. Perhaps your point was to try to discredit my stance on judging the quality of a person's political opinion by the language they use to express it. By using such an absurd example of inference (why take Moore's opinion on anything seriously because of his inability to regulate his own body weight) you might be intending to suggest that my own argument is equally flawed. Maybe. Or you could just be some random troll. Time will tell.

Posted by: Che Grovera at October 26, 2008 5:32 PM

I'm a few days late to this party, but that's because I've been trapped in the land of no internet for the past three days. And in that land I found plenty of said neoconservatives that EricD does not believe exist. I am very fortunate that I live in a solidly blue state, and haven't been subjected to constant campaigning from either side. When I traveled 300 miles to the south Thursday afternoon, it was like I entered a whole different world. People who I had previously thought I respected told me that Obama was a terrorist and a Muslim who will not protect the rights of women. Mouth agape, I couldn't even muster a response I was so shocked.

Then, this morning I agreed to attend a church service with family members. I cannot begin to describe my horror over the hateful and downright racists comments I heard. I spent two hours listening to a denouncement of science and "intellectuals." A congregation of around 100 nodded their heads and applauded when the minister proclaimed "I would rather be considered ignorant than question what I have read in the Bible." He also kept mentioning the "enemy" that Christians face throughout the sermon as a thinly veiled reference to Obama/liberals.

It was so horrible, I just...I'm still recovering. I just couldn't believe people I love believe this shit. Of course, I didn't say anything; I didn't want to argue with them because obviously ignorance is the better alternative to intellectual discussion. My point is, neoconservatives do exist, and they vote for whomever their leaders tell them. It is absolutely terrifying to see first hand.

And grammar mistakes do count. I'm not going to elaborate because all I would be doing is regurgitating Che's post from above.

Posted by: Austin at October 26, 2008 11:49 PM

Why is it that people insisting on perfect spelling always make spelling mistakes while doing so?
Just wondering.
Also, George, anyone who has ever done even one module of journalism studies knows that unbiased reporting is impossible. I always found OPENLY biased reporting (opinion pieces etc.) much more educational to read. At least then you know exactly what you're getting: as biased opinion.

Posted by: Sofia at October 27, 2008 10:43 AM

See, I made a spelling mistake. :) But at least I never claimed to be perfect. (Although perhaps I should be, as editing is my profession... but let's ignore that part for now).

Posted by: Sofia at October 27, 2008 10:45 AM

Austin I thought your points were valid until you used the wrong tense with "racists," but unfortunately now I can't take anything you said seriously.

Also I don't like the comma in "My point is, neoconservatives do..."

Regarding your actual points, if they hadn't been immediately invalidated by the incorrect grammar I would have argued that everyone is marketed to from a cult standpoint rather than from logic. Democrats market their party to make you feel intelligent and compassionate for voting democratic. Republicans market their party to make their voters feel self-righteous and patriotic for voting republican. Apple markets their product not by saying how it's better, because by and large the public isn't qualified to understand that kind of talk, but by projecting the image that smarter, more intellectually-inclined people buy Macs. Starbucks does the same. Some very small fraction of their sales comes from their organic brew, but they have the signs right out front so people know that they're the kind of person that drinks coffee at the kind of place that has organic brews. Nobody at the national political level is bothering to make logical arguments. It's mostly a bunch of platitudes designed to make you feel like you're a certain kind of person for voting for that party.

Posted by: Eep at October 27, 2008 12:24 PM

I didn't figure you as one to go for the heavy-handed rhetorical bitch-slaps, Eep. I thought you and I already agreed to lay down arms on the grammar sniping. Nice point about the predominance of marketing platitudes in every aspect of commerce and of politics, although I would disagree that there aren't any logical arguments being made at the national political level. Unfortunately, they are too infrequent to garner much attention in the cacophony of sloganeering that otherwise masquerades as campaigning these days.

Note to the rest of you:

/begin rant

I've never posited that one spelling or grammar error of any sort invalidates the entirety of a rhetorical statement, and anyone who would take that position is an asshole with some other agenda. I have limited patience for the people who are so indifferent about spelling and grammar in general, and reserve particular scorn for the people who are hostile to the "grammar police." If you drive on the sidewalk you should at the very least be prepared to be corrected, so why should the equivalent linguistic infraction be dismissed as a triviality -- or worse still, as something that should be tolerated in the interest of expediting traffic? The rules exist much more for the convenience of receivers than they do for transmitters, so to the extent you refuse to learn them you thumb your nose at the rest of us ("go ahead, I dare you to try to figure out what I mean even though I can't spell worth a shit or construct a meaningful sentence -- I have an opinion to express, godammit"). I say fuck you, you self-absorbed ignorant bastards. So there.

/end rant

Posted by: Che Grovera at October 28, 2008 2:28 AM

Che:

I asked you and Eep that question because you were discussing whether or not proper spelling hinders the point a person is making...so I extended it to fatties to see what you two might say, for fun.

In response I got a few sensitive souls (somewhat like some of your initial feedback from the grammar comment) bloviating about how we should ignore the fact that someone has trouble with issues you can learn about from Captain Carlos.

Don't worry guys...I'll make sure to overlook drug abuse, degenerate gambling, and alcoholism as well the next time someone is making a point.

Posted by: brutus at October 30, 2008 10:56 PM

Che-
I was just goofing, giving a little tit-for-tat.

Heh, bloviating.

Posted by: Eep at October 30, 2008 11:13 PM

Don't worry guys...I'll make sure to overlook drug abuse, degenerate gambling, and alcoholism as well the next time someone is making a point.

Posted by: brutus at October 30, 2008 10:56 PM

The nice thing about posting this late is that no one will see it...the virtual last word, so to speak.

Just a bunch of meh, anyway. I still don't get your POV, brutus. Connect obesity (or gambling) to intellectual deficiency -- as I've gamely attempted to do with grammar -- and then let's talk. Drinking and drugging are more obvious impediments to lucidity, although it isn't clear to me how you're able to detect them over the interwebs. I'll take me some of that technology if you're sharing, though!

Posted by: Che Grovera at November 3, 2008 8:24 PM

All of these types of people are deliberately killing themselves. They know the risks, and they are irresponsible enough to ignore those risks.

Call me crazy - but I find it hard to lend credence to the opinion of someone who repeatedly, uncontrollably exercises poor judgment.

Here are a couple of questions, if you're still checking this page:

Why is there a dearth of fat politicians? Would you have supported Obama (just a guess) if he weighed 426 pounds?

Posted by: brutus at November 8, 2008 1:40 PM





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