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The Night of the Dead Living


"Lost: LA X, Parts 1 and 2" (S6/E1 and E2) Recap / Daniel Carlson

TV Reviews | February 5, 2010 | Comments (291)


I’ve been thinking a lot about “Lost” since the previous season ended and this one began, mainly in terms of the types of questions the show raises and the ones that fans ask of the series. When I talk with other people who watch the show, they invariably talk about how they either want a very specific question answered or issue addressed. I feel the same hunger, but I also think that that line of thinking leads to two problems. For one, it assumes that answers need to be given explicitly for certain mysteries, and that this should take the form of one character saying something along the lines of, “Yes, I am indeed responsible for that, and here’s how I did it.” That’s how soap operas and bad movies work, and frankly, for all its minor flaws, I’d just as soon “Lost” avoid those paths. Answers often come in moments of quiet revelation that are soon buried, but they’re still answers. Even with a few pieces removed, you can tell what a puzzle will turn out to be, and this is similar to that: Oblique answers don’t negate comprehension, or effect.

The second problem with wanting hospital corners and tidy resolutions is that most TV series in the genre vein tend to work better as unsolved mysteries, or at least as stories that place a stronger emphasis on emotional conclusions than those related to who did what and why. That’s not to say that character arcs exist independently of the mysteries that drive said characters, or that refusing to solve any major mysteries is somehow noble; they don’t, and it’s not. But it’s important to remember that the question of who killed Laura Palmer was what had all the energy, not learning who killed her. It was always more entertaining and enlivening to watch Agent Mulder chase the truth than to find it. And maybe, just maybe, it’s a better thing to see Jack Shephard slack-jawed with curiosity and terror than to fully understand the thing he’s looking at.

Anyway.

The sixth-season premiere, “LA X” (there’s a space there), went the only direction the series had left to go, narrative-wise. After three seasons of flashing back from the main action to the past, and two that jumped forward in time from the principal island setting, things are now basically sideways. (And though I’m okay with “flashback” and “flashforward,” “flash-sideways” just sounds dumb.) The question haunting Miles and the rest of the crew on the island at the end of last season was: What happens when the bomb goes off? Will it simply knock them forward in time from 1977 to their original point of origin, resulting in the explosion that necessitated the building of the hatch, whose malfunctioning caused Oceanic 815 to wreck in the first place? Or will it act as a reset button, destroying the pocket of energy that was being regulated by the hatch, thereby meaning no future malfunction and plane crash? The answer, for now, is: Both.

The first episode of the final season tracked not two points on the same timeline, but two points on two different timelines. (It helps if you’ve seen Back to the Future: Part II.) In one, the bomb blast triggered by Juliet sent the travelers back to their own present, which would be 2007, where Frank, Sun, and the rest of that whole gang of wackos are on the beach next to the four-toed foot statue where Jacob is killed. In the other, the blast undoes everything, meaning the 2004 flight from Sydney to Los Angeles never crashed but made it safely to California. So for now, we’ve got two stories, and I’ll do my best to keep them clearly marked.

First, the stuff on the plane. The action there opens at the top of the episode, with Jack gazing absently out his window, shaking his head to clear the fog. He has the same conversation with Rose about turbulence that we’ve seen years before, and it’s nicely re-enacted despite differing hair lengths for pretty much every character. It becomes clear quickly that, whatever power or permanence this version of events might have, it won’t be going anywhere soon: In one of what will be the series’ classic visual reveals, the camera drops below the plane and down into the sea, passing over the ocean floor until it reaches the completely submerged island, still decked out in ruined Other habitats and a decaying four-toed statue. In this world, the island’s long gone, and the sight of it under so much water is eerie and perfect.

Everybody’s on the plane, alive, just as they should be. At one point, even Desmond shows up and chats with Jack, which was a genuinely confusing moment, albeit a pleasing one; I wonder how they’ll reconcile that, or if Des was just hopping through time again and popped into the plane for a bit. (My money’s on this one.) It was fun to see the characters reunited in their innocence, and it contrasted nicely with the cuts to the other timeline where everything was just running to hell as fast as possible. Kate’s still trying to figure out how to escape her federal escort, and Sawyer starts scheming when he overhears Hurley tell Arzt (who has in this world not been blown into tiny tiny pieces) about winning the lottery. But the best was seeing John Locke — good old non-dead Locke, and not the physical embodiment of the island’s evil presence — chatting with Boone. He lied about the fun he had on his walkabout, since he couldn’t bear to cop to the fact that he was handicapped, and his bravado was heartbreaking. Seeing them together for a moment was a reminder how great they’d been as a team in the first season.

Also on the plane, Charlie chokes on a bag of heroin he shoved down his throat in the bathroom and nearly died, but Jack is paged into action and brings him around. This pisses Charlie off, and he complains to Jack that he was “supposed to die.” The flight ends with a slow-motion deplaning that mirrored the sequence at the end of the first-season finale when everyone boarded Oceanic 815. Kate is led off, Charlie is arrested, and Jack sees Locke be lifted and placed into a wheelchair, Locke gritting his teeth and trying and failing to remain dignified.

Once on the ground, things stayed hectic for the not-survivors. Kate uses a pen she lifted from Jack to pop her handcuffs and temporarily subdue the marshal, who gets banged on the head in another parallel with what might have been/already was. She makes it all the way to the taxi area before he catches up to her, and she hops into a cab and holds a gun on the driver to get him to go. The fun reveal: Claire, still very pregnant, is already in the cab. Also at LAX, Jin is stopped by Customs, who find a fat wad of henchman cash in his bag and lead him away. Sun, when given the opportunity to speak up and end it, balks and says she doesn’t understand English. (This is because in this timeline, Jin’s still an emotionally abusive dick.) And of course, Jack and Locke manage to meet. Jack’s father’s coffin is misplaced by Oceanic, and he and Locke chat at customer service, where Locke reminds Jack that they haven’t lost Jack’s father, just the body. Jack is moved and offers Locke a free consultation for spinal surgery. When Locke initially demurs and says his problem is irreversible, Jack insists, “Nothing is irreversible.” Oh Jack, always with the saving. You’re adorable.

So that’s the non-crash timeline. Now, the crash world:

The action picks up in the moments after the bomb blast. The past few seasons of the show — roughly corresponding with the shorter seasons in general — have had wildly reduced timelines, often covering mere days with the number of episodes that spanned weeks on the island in the first season. That adds to the heightened sense of urgency: Viewed in a row, there’s almost no stopping at all for like three full seasons, which is kind of amazing/insane/amazing. Anyway, the first character to come around is Kate, whose ears are ringing and who’s caught up in a tree. She meets up with Miles and sees an old DHARMA door. “We’re back,” she says.

They meet up with Jack at the bombed-out pit that’s the remnants of the destroyed Swan station — the hatch — and not the construction site, meaning the hatch was built, meaning it blew up, caused the crash, etc. Jack isn’t awake for a minute when Sawyer flies out and kicks him into the pit, which has to hurt. (It was Shannon who referred to it as Craphole Island back in the first season, and at this point she’s probably happy to be dead just so she doesn’t have to deal with this level of insanity. Angry polar bears would be a relief for Jack.) His ass-kicking takes a pause when Sawyer hears Juliet crying out from beneath the rubble pile drawn in by the explosion, so he and the rest start working to get her out.

Meanwhile, Hurley and Jin are watching over Sayid, where they’ve been since before Jack and that crew attacked the construction site. Jin bails to go help the rescue effort, and Hurley is confronted by the amiable ghost of Jacob, who calmly tells Hurley that he (Jacob) died an hour before but that Sayid can be saved if taken to the Temple, which Jin will know how to find from his wacky adventures with the young Rousseau’s expedition team. When asked, Jacob says, “I was killed by an old friend who grew tired of my company.”

Sawyer, Jack, Kate, and Jin manage to open up the wreckage, and Sawyer goes down to find a dying Juliet. He eventually frees her, and they have a few final moments together. She tells him she hit the bomb, which puzzles Sawyer, but he rolls with it. Juliet talks about getting coffee sometime and going Dutch, then snaps back into it and gives Sawyer one final kiss. She tries to tell him something “really, really important,” but dies before she can get it out. So this is twice Sawyer’s had to watch her die. Guy does not deserve that.

Topside, Hurley puts his foot down (FINALLY) and tells Jack that they’re taking Sayid to the Temple since they don’t have any other options. Sawyer stays behind to bury Juliet with Miles’ help, and though at first this seems like he’s looking for help, it turns out that he just wants Miles to use his psychic power to read Juliet and find out what she was trying to tell Sawyer. Miles finally agrees and contacts her, and brings back her two-word message: “It worked.” Neither man knows what it means, but you and I do, kiddo.

Hurley and the rest reach the ruined wall that leads underground — and Hurley finds an old copy of Kierkegaard’s Fear and Trembling with the remains of a body — but after a couple minutes down there, they’re kidnapped by Others and lead out into an open area where we finally see the Temple for the first time. It looks, well, like a weird old temple in the middle of the jungle. They’re greeted by guards and a really stereotypical-looking Asian warlord type, who speaks through an interpreter played by John Hawkes (Sol Star from “Deadwood”). The IMDb lists his character name as Lennon, I’m guessing as a nod to his round specs, but he’s not named outright in this episode. Anyway, Hurley and the gang are almost shot on sight before Hurley uses Jacob’s name as a shibboleth to halt the execution, then gives them the guitar case Jacob gave him back in Los Angeles. The Others open it to find a wooden ankh, which the leader snaps open to find a note, because that’s the safest way to send notes. Hurley et al. give their names, and Lennon is given the okay to bring them all into the Temple.

Inside is a pool of water that’s running dirtier than normal, per Lennon, and Angry Warlord Leader cuts his hand and places it in the water but sees no change. Guards lower Sayid into the pool as a giant hourglass is tipped over, and Sayid starts thrashing before eventually giving up and going limp. Jack tries to stop this but is karate chopped into painful submission. They drag Sayid out of the water and lay him out, then pronounce him unsaveable and thus dead. Jack tries to revive him with CPR, because that’s what Jack does, but no soap. He’s gone.

While all of this is going on, there’s also stuff happening down at the beach by the statue. The evil spirit masquerading as Locke — because that’s what it is — sends Ben out to get Richard, but Richard shows Ben the corpse of the real Locke, which is pretty much a brain-scrambler for Ben. Ben eventually heads back in with Bram and other armed commandos, but if there’s an immutable truth to the island, it’s that machine guns don’t do a thing to the smoke monster. The guys open fire and hit Fake Locke, who disappears around a corner and into thin air. Then there’s the familiar rattling as the smoke monster returns and destroys them. Bram spreads a circle of ash to protect himself, which works for maybe three seconds. The monster just bangs a pillar that knocks Bram out of the circle, and then he’s tossed and impaled. When it’s over, Fake Locke reappears to Ben and says, “I’m sorry you had to see me like that.” Bam, said the lady.

Later, Fake Locke chats with Ben about the real John Locke, putting a final point on his story. He says that Locke’s last thought as he was being strangled was “I don’t understand,” and I agree with the evil spirit that that’s the saddest thing I’ve ever heard. He tells Ben, “I want to go home,” though there’s no mention yet of what or where or even when that home is. Can the spirit not travel across water? Is it bound to the island somehow?

The episode wraps as Hurley conferences with Lennon and Asian Warlord about Jacob, telling them that he knows Jacob to be dead. This sets off a chain of alarms as the group of Others starts rousting everyone and pouring ash around the temple. “It isn’t to keep you in,” Lennon says, “it’s to keep him out.” They set off a firework/signal flare that’s seen down at the beach by Richard just as Fake Locke emerges from the statue. Richard realizes it’s the Enemy right away, and Fake Locke says it’s good to see Richard “out of those chains” just before he knocks him unconscious. He expresses disappointment with everyone there before shouldering Richard’s body and heading off into the jungle.

Back at the Temple, everything’s going crazy, and Miles and Sawyer have since been apprehended and brought there to wait with their friends. Jack turns on Lennon and starts fighting before he’s stopped by Hurley’s warning shout. He turns to see — yep — Sayid sitting up, his luscious man locks none the worse for wear, as he grabs his head and asks, “What happened?”

Well, a lot did, guy. My initial reaction, though, is that this was a strong episode that seamlessly continued the story as laid out last year. It also hinted at interesting things to come, both on the island and in the alternate universe (Earth Prime? Dimension X?) where the Oceanic 815 crash never happened. For instance, everything was just slightly different this time around: Jack was the nervous one instead of Rose, Shannon didn’t return to L.A. with Boone (which yes was partly because Maggie Grace turned down the role but whatever, it’s canon now), Christian’s body was apparently never placed in the cargo hold, and oh yeah Desmond is on the plane. How far will this go? Will one timeline have to go, or is there some merge possible? If one goes, what happens to the other? Is one more inherently “real”? The shift between stories wasn’t the lower white noise of the flashbacks and -forwards, but the screeching that accompanied the island’s time jumps. What might that mean? Additionally, the healing water of the Temple is apparently what helped Ben when he was shot as a boy, and now it’s helped Sayid. Does that mean he (and Ben) is to a degree invested with some part of the island and/or its spirit? Would that bring them ontologically closer to Jacob or the Enemy?

One thing I know: I have plenty of questions, but they’re matched by a willingness to take the ride and let the story unfold on its own terms. It’s done well so far, and I have to believe I won’t be disappointed.

Daniel Carlson is the managing editor of Pajiba and a TV blogger for the Houston Press. You can visit his blog, Slowly Going Bald.


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Comments

YES!

Posted by: chad at February 3, 2010 11:32 AM

First two paragraphs: perfectly stated.

Now, back to reading the rest...

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 11:35 AM

Any thoughts on why Sayid woke up?

Could it be like Fake John Locke and it is only Sayid's body possessed?

Posted by: Matt T at February 3, 2010 11:43 AM

I think that at some point in time they are going to have to reconcile the two timelines, Dark Tower-style, or choose between one or the other. A third option is, of course, that the two timelines remain branched (I forget which story this idea originates from), but I don't think that is what is going to happen.

My first thought about Sayid is that he is the New Jacob. But now that you remind me that Ben was healed in the temple and imbued with a spark of the island's spirit, I'm questioning my first thought. I'm not completely ruling out that Sayid could be the New Jacob, but I am now considering that he could be the Anti-Ben.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 11:52 AM

Ah, good old Sol! I KNEW I recognized him, but couldn't place him.

Bad Locke/Enemy Mine is even more badass than Locke before the end. Coolbe. Ben looked confucked most of the time.

My daughter, who is not a LOST addict like good old mom, watched the 1st hour with me, and commented on Jack..."Man, he cries A LOT, doesn't he?"

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 11:58 AM

Matt T, I thought the same thing about Sayid being possessed, but it was explained to me that Locke has not been bodysnatched (which is clear since his body is on the beach). The SmokeMonster is taking his image, as it has taken the form of others in the past. The Man in Black/SmokeMonster just had to get the timing right to take Locke's form as the Ajira flight crashed?

Posted by: maydays at February 3, 2010 11:58 AM

OH, and AWESOME title!

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 12:00 PM

*SPOILERS for this episode, of course, and potential spoilers in my speculation if any of my guesses are correct*

Yeah, I really enjoyed the premiere. I was somewhat anticipating they might go in this direction, as - as you say - there wasn't much place else to go with where they had left it. As loony as I thought the whole nuclear bomb plan was and the "logic" behind it, this split in reality seems narratively satisfying.

The Jack / Locke moment at the baggage claim was rather heartwarming, and it had me thinking: maybe this alternate reality isn't bad after all. The "nothing's irreversible" line and Charlie's "I was supposed to die" were very clever, and I foresee more of those moments for Jack in this future.

Despite that nice exchange between Jack and Locke and Hurley's incessant good luck, I'm thinking that maybe the alternate future will be going straight to hell. I'm foreseeing things along these lines: a botched surgery for John Locke at Jack's hands, Sawyer swindling Hurley out of his money (don't underestimate that character arc that Sawyer underwent on the island that a lack of crash has now prevented), Kate's being killed in a hail of gunfire (or maybe Claire and unborn Aaron in the crossfire), Jin and Sun's marriage falling apart, etc.

And I'm wondering if Jack won't be experiencing more and more "deja vu." The disappearance of his father's body and the appearance of Desmond (hallucination by Jack?) indicate to me that there will be a tangible link to what could have been. Once everything has gone to hell, will a haunted Jack be the only one left to seek answers? Maybe he'll track down Ellie or Faraday? And then will the lesson ultimately be to leave things as they were, thus bringing us full circle?

As for the other half of the story, I'm not sure where they're going or how far into the story they'll take us. Why is Sayid back? I thought "dead is dead."

That's about it for now. Discuss with me if you like.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 12:00 PM

My thought is that Sayid was never dead. They had that nice little moment where Miles and Hurley are next to him, and Hurley asks Miles, "What?" Miles answers, looking genuinely surprised, "Nothing." I took this to mean that Sayid was not talking to him, and thus, not dead.

By the way, those LOST Bingo cards on SciFiWire? The free square is "Someone says "WHAT?"

I was sleepy when I watched this, so I wasn't as screamy as I might have been, but my jaw dropped when they found the ankh in the case. That guitar case was the biggest throat-tickle for me, so I'm glad it was 'solved' early.

Speaking of differences on the plane, Hurley described himself as lucky. You could assume he was being sarcastic, but it sounded genuine.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 12:03 PM

I think Sayid being alive again can be related to Jacob; it sounds silly but I'm pretty sure Sayid's voice/accent sounded a bit different at the end of the episode.

Posted by: Radlum at February 3, 2010 12:07 PM

And I'm wondering if Jack won't be experiencing more and more "deja vu." The disappearance of his father's body and the appearance of Desmond (hallucination by Jack?) indicate to me that there will be a tangible link to what could have been.

I think a more accurate description of what could possibly happen to Jack is that he will begin to live two separate lives in one split mind. That is to say - the alternate memories will start to seep into Jack's mind. Jack On The Island will experience seepage from Jack Not On The Island and vice versa. Or something. You know what I'm talking about.

My daughter, who is not a LOST addict like good old mom, watched the 1st hour with me, and commented on Jack..."Man, he cries A LOT, doesn't he?"

Fucking A. And the pisser of it is, Matthew Fox can't even muster up a good cry. David Tennant could cry circles around him and look good doing it. To quote my husband, "Matthew Fox is still Party of Five-ing it up."

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 12:08 PM

Of course, if my prediction is correct, alternate reality Jack is really the only one who has the benefit of the perspective in the end, and it raises the question: what was the point of creating the alternate reality in the first place, except perhaps to give the audience a lesson on being grateful for what you have?

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 12:09 PM

DARK TOWER MILD SPOILERS

stardust >> I do know exactly what you're talking about and that's more or less what I meant: something akin to Jake's experience in Dark Tower. As it did in that story, it might become necessary for Jack's survival to save his splintering consciousness by ending one of the realities before he goes mad.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 12:12 PM

i'm wondering if they'll take the corpse of strangled locke and try to dip him in the miracle pool.

thanks for the recap, dan-great job (& so quickly done!) i was literally buzzing by the time it all ended last night.

i still think jacob is team bad guy.
evil locke's just misunderstood.

how many more days til next tuesday...?!

also, the producers revealed on kimmel last night that they final end date of the show will be on a sunday! may 23rd!

Posted by: gem at February 3, 2010 12:14 PM

I think of all the fun, "hey you've been watching since the first season so let's reward you with a bunch of continuity lines, site gags, etc.," was the voice of good old Greg Gunberg as the Captain of Oceanic 815. That gave me the warm and fuzzies.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 12:16 PM

If Lost's finale resembles The Dark Tower's in any way shape or form, I will pick up the yellow pages and start murdering Lindelof's and Cuse's Terminator style.

I liked the episodes as a whole, and it's great to have Lost back. My only bitch, in general, is that the last thing this show needed is ANOTHER group of "Others," and a whole lot of new questions. The good news is that I think that there is a strong chance that these new questions are really part of the answer. This is where the people on Jacob's original list go to- the real heart and purpose of the island. The "temple".

Notably absent from the plane (from what I remember)- Michael and Walt.

Posted by: logar at February 3, 2010 12:16 PM

it might become necessary for Jack's survival to save his splintering consciousness by ending one of the realities before he goes mad.

Damn dude, don't tell me that. I'm really rooting for Jack to die torn limb from limb by the smoke monster.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 12:17 PM

I think I need an excel spreadsheet of who is/isn't alive/dead/was-dead-but-got-better.

Also, Maggie Grace turned it down? Because she's so busy with... what, exactly?

Posted by: Gabs at February 3, 2010 12:26 PM

Yesssssss, stardust, I loved it when he got his ass handed to him by Mr. "I Don't Like the Way English Tastes On My Tongue." THANK YOU, I screamed at my computer screen (no cable!).

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 12:27 PM

I guess I dug the premiere, but I distinctly recall an article where we were promised "more answers in the first 2 hours than in all of season 5", which we didn't quite get. Kaneda & John Hawkes showing up was pretty cool, but as always, far more questions than answers. "Why isn't the water clear" WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT, WHAT IS THAT WATER, WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU PEOPLE. Anyway, I anticipate somebody compiling all of those intense stares between Sawyer & Jack into a steamy video set to "Let's Get It On." And it was clever of them to not show the tail section, considering we're not at all sure who's coming back for guest spots.

Posted by: the new transported man at February 3, 2010 12:28 PM

I think of all the fun, "hey you've been watching since the first season so let's reward you with a bunch of continuity lines, site gags, etc.," was the voice of good old Greg Gunberg as the Captain of Oceanic 815.
Ditto, coveredinbees. Warm fuzzies perfectly describes my internal reaction. Oh Seth Norris, you died so horribly and so soon.

Notably absent from the plane (from what I remember)- Michael and Walt.
Oooo, logar, good call. Of course, we never saw Claire on the plane, though it is later revealed that she was.

My random bet for this season, which I have been saying for a while now, is that we will see Ray (Jack's grandfather) again, and in a big way.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 12:29 PM

played by John Hawkes (Sol Star from “Deadwood”).

Also, (George the janitor in Buffy s2ep19 "I Only Have Eyes For You"). Sorry.

I found this episode to be excellent. I did enjoy all those little connecting tidbits, such as Arzt and Hurley and Sawyer on the plane. And Desmond, who appeared to disappear. (I did ask teh pseudo-Mr. at one point, "So where are Michael and Walt?" before realizing that, alternate reality or no, the kid who played Walt is no longer a kid, so they couldn't really do that. Then we both yelled, "WAAAAAAALT!" and giggled our idiot heads off.)

A thought I had was that since the Enemy is now in the guise of John Locke, is the now-dead Jacob now embodied in Sayid? And what is everyone's take on Miles and whether or not he "heard" anything from Dead Sayid?

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 12:30 PM

...and now there are 20 comments that say the same stuff/negate some, which I have since also thought of re: Sayid/Jacob. Damn, you people are QUICK.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 12:33 PM

Anna I love John Hawkes, I never knew he was what the island always needed until he showed up in his stupid love beads. Love him as the janitor, love him in Me Without You, love him in Wristcutters. Just. . .love.

p.s. My roommate and I get into screaming matches where he'll go "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!" and I'll go "MAAAAAAAARCEEEELLLLLL!!!" (from La Vie En Rose) so I can see the scene with you and your pseudo-hubs perfectly.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 12:35 PM

"Karate chopped into painful submission"

I fucking love you people.

Posted by: the buttonator at February 3, 2010 12:35 PM

Dead on with you summary... (were you typing as you were watching... how do hold your beer while doing that)...

I don't want to see more of Sawyer sad (between the recap and this episode how many times did we have to see him drop Juliet?)

It was good to see Hurley step it up...

I too am ready and willing to take the ride wherever it takes me... it has been so good so far what else will happen!

(I just hope that it doesn't get cheesy as it did a few times last night)

Posted by: El L Cool J at February 3, 2010 12:43 PM

The business about whether Sayid is Sayid or Jacob has brought a new question to mind. First, can both Jacob and the MIB take other forms? Because what if the Jacob Hurley saw wasn't ghost Jacob, but rather the MIB - what if the MIB needed an "in" to the temple? Can either entity inhabit more than one being at a time? We know for sure that MIB can take other forms now, and that explains ghost Christian, Kate's Horse, Libby, etc.

Why/how is MIB trapped on island if Jacob can go off? Maybe only one of them at a time exist off island? One side has to win out - good vs. evil.

I think it will not only be Jack who has to choose - but also Kate, Sawyer, Hurley - relevant people still on the island. Also, my feeling is that Desmond wasn't "on the plane" per se, but rather that he did his little time jump pop in thing, because he's the only one who can manipulate time. He's there to stimulate Jack in some way. Jack may again be the catalyst for whatever events should occur.

As for the two timelines, I like the merge idea, but I think it's going to come down to one or the other.

Where is Daniel Faraday?

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 12:44 PM

Because what if the Jacob Hurley saw wasn't ghost Jacob, but rather the MIB - what if the MIB needed an "in" to the temple?

I am of the camp that the Nemesis cannot take on more than one form at once. (Example: When he took Ben to be judged, he walked away "to find rope" before Monster/Alex showed up. And returned conveniently after their exit.) In which case, I do not think he snuck in to the Temple.

Plus, I feel that Jacob would not (whether he could or not) take on the form of others. The Nemesis would want to deceive, but Jacob would want people to come to things on their own through pain and honesty.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 12:50 PM

Miles did not hear Sayid because Sayid wasn't dead. Now, whether that means it is Sayid in his own body or not, seems too soon to tell. But if Miles heard anyone else in there, I'm sure he'd have spoken out about it. He hesitated because he didn't want to give anyone false hopes.

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 12:51 PM

Where is Daniel Faraday?

In which timeline? On Island, he is dead. Momma capped him, remember?

Off Island, I suppose he is in Oxford, drooling and crying over Theresa and his memory loss.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 12:51 PM

But I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the MIB has not been inhabiting bodies but rather, as someone mentioned above, stealing images (not quite like The First on Buffy, because MIB/Locke is definitely corporeal, but it helps me to think of that as a reference), so it doesn't QUITE seem it jive. But Jacob and the MIB might have different ways of doing things, because, yes, a lot was riding on resurrecting Sayid (whereas not so much with Juliet. . .TAKE HER TO THE TEMPLE, JAMES). I would just be rather bummed because I doubt Jacob/Sayid would be killing anybody anytime soon using just his thighs. And a fightin' Sayid is a great Sayid.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 12:53 PM

I freakin' love you people....

WAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLT!

Oh and in asking where everyone is...

WHERE THE FUCK IS VINCENT!!!

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 12:54 PM

Oh, and great recap Dan!

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 12:54 PM

Oh shit, I totally blocked that from my mind Patty. Thanks!

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 12:55 PM

Why/how is MIB trapped on island if Jacob can go off?

Wasn't Jacob alive when he was off-island? And we don't know how long MIB (or BSG, or The Enemy) has been dead... couldn't that be why he can't leave? Because he'll *actually* die if he does, as opposed to "living on in spirit" as he is?

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 12:57 PM

a fightin' Sayid is a great Sayid.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 12:53 PM

Ok, who's with me? I wanna see a cage match between Sayid and Jack Bauer

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 12:57 PM

And what is everyone's take on Miles and whether or not he "heard" anything from Dead Sayid?

I don't think Miles heard anything from Sayid. That was my take on his surprised look. Either that or he heard Jacob instead of Sayid.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 12:59 PM

Hot damn I love this show.

Cindy - Pretty sure we're done with Farraday since his mommy shooted him dead in the past. In the same way that Charlotte couldn't time jump with the rest after she died, Farraday dies in the past and stays there.

I really, really was hoping they weren't going to introduce new characters this season. As fun as it was to see the hot stewardess who gave Jack extra booze on the plane as a member of the Other Others at the temple, do we REALLY need to have a whole set of new characters to explain some shit?

Also, if the MIB is the smoke monster wouldn't that make him "the islands security system?" (I believe Ben calls it that at some point.) Either way the smokey reveal, coupled with somebody using the shit out of Ben instead of vice versa, was enough awesomsauce for last night to keep me satisfied.

Posted by: Roaddog at February 3, 2010 12:59 PM

Oh, and another thing (I got all day, people): With all of the little differences, when Locke was explaining his walkabout, I actually hoped he meant it, and he wasn't paralyzed. Then, when I realized he was still in the chair, and had lied to impress Boone, it made me so sad. Nemesis is right, Locke is just such a sad sack.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 12:59 PM

dammitjanet Sayid must be shirtless and both his luscious man locks and chest should be oiled. Then, yes, I am with you.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 1:00 PM

coveredinbees

Its on. Lets do this thing!

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 1:02 PM

Hee! dammitjanet, when Hurley was standing there with Sayid and Jacob came rustling through the jungle, I was all like "Ohhh it's gotta be Vincent! Yay Vincent!"

Is it wrong that I was just a teensy bit disappointed that it wasn't?

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 1:03 PM

AVB Holy shit. It didn't even occur to me that MIB might already be dead. We already knew that smokey couldn't kill virtuous people (locke in the jungle) so that would explain his inability to directly cause harm to Jacob.

Mind: Blown.

Posted by: Roaddog at February 3, 2010 1:07 PM

I wanted to say, also, (like Patty I have all day and luuuurrrvvv Lost and have missed it so much), that one of the things I like about the split universes/realities/timelines is the ability for the characters to behave, as they always have I suppose, in two very different ways and that contrast heightens the drama of their current situation.

That's rather confusingly put so my example would be Sawyer. Now I LOVED his scenes with Juliet (not so much the angry belaying down into the pit), he was so sweet with her and so broken and it was amazing. . .but a shallow little voice in my head was saying, "Oh, cripes, does this mean we get Emo/Agro Sawyer for the rest of the season? I prefer him flirty and nick-namey and insouciant."

And directly after my treacherous brain thought that, we got Kate and Sawyer in the elevator at LAX (which, I'm sorry, I'm living on Oahu right now, and they made no attempt to disguise Honolulu airport-at all). Sawyer was all leery and smirky and cracking-wise, which made me happy.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 1:10 PM

Also, if the MIB is the smoke monster wouldn't that make him "the islands security system?" (I believe Ben calls it that at some point.)

Maybe Ben doesn't know about the two separate entities - Nemesis and Jacob? Ben was the leader of The Others, but I wonder if he knows everything about the island.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 1:10 PM

AVB that is absolutely what I thought, too!

Poor puppy...he's the real victim here. I mean, do they have Dharma Milkbones?

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 1:11 PM

Wasn't Jacob alive when he was off-island? And we don't know how long MIB (or BSG, or The Enemy) has been dead... couldn't that be why he can't leave? Because he'll *actually* die if he does, as opposed to "living on in spirit" as he is?

I don't think Jacob being dead or alive has to do with him being off island - I did assume he was alive when he visited the Losties back home. Why do you think MIB is "dead"? I think both Jacob and MIB have been around much longer than any human can live. What I was saying is that we know Jacob can get off, but maybe MIB can't? I have thought for quite some time that Jacob and MIB are warring "gods" (for lack of a better term). They are each more than human, at least. Each wants to win out - now what does that mean? Maybe only one can be in control of the island? Perhaps one needs to be in control of the island to have certain powers - such as being able to take human form off island? Maybe up until now, Jacob has wielded control, but now that he's dead, if MIB can get to the temple, he can somehow get himself "home" or off island?

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 1:12 PM

OK, so the Temple Others know who "he" is, because when they hear that Jacob got waxed, they sound the alarms & spread the ashes. Richard knows who "he" is, because there was that moment of recognition b/w the 2 of them, right before Evil Locke used the revered LOST plot device of knocking somebody out with a few quick blows. So why doesn't Ben know who "he" is? Of course Ben thought he was pretending to talk to Jacob when he used to visit the cabin, but thus far it looks like Ben wasn't aware of a second being.

Posted by: the new transported man at February 3, 2010 1:13 PM

*Ben didn't know

coverdinbees, I have the exact same dilemma! On one hand I like a sweet, insouciant Sawyer. On the other hand, I do loves me some leering, wise-cracking Sawyer.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 1:13 PM

Man I wanted that asian temple leader to start wailing on that ankh as if it were a real guitar...

Posted by: Tray Vis at February 3, 2010 1:15 PM

Cindy, I've had the same thought about Jacob and MIB being gods, or personification of Good and Evil. Obviously they aren't "true humans." I mean, did anyone see any remains in that fire?

MIB wanted control of the Island and used Ben to get it. I agree that getting into the Temple would possibly afford him the chance to get off Island...but then what?

And, while nobody does sadsackface like Jack, nobody does shityourpantsohmygodwhatthefuckisgoingonface like Ben.

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 1:16 PM

I am re-watching Deadwood with a friend right now, and I'm just loving that Lost is keeping the actors working. My running tally...

Trixie was an other shot by Jin (Colleen, I think?).
EB was the other "He's our you", Oldham.
Jane was Juliet's sister.
Joanie was Cassidy, Sawyer's con and baby mama.
What's his face that worked for Swearengen plays the nemesis!
Now Sol is this Lennon fella.

Yay. =) Just sayin.

Posted by: jamiepants at February 3, 2010 1:16 PM

I really, really was hoping they weren't going to introduce new characters this season. As fun as it was to see the hot stewardess who gave Jack extra booze on the plane as a member of the Other Others at the temple, do we REALLY need to have a whole set of new characters to explain some shit?

She's not new. That's Cindy, the stewardess who ended up with the Tailies.

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 1:18 PM

Sorry if it's been covered previously, but where in the hell did Richard come from? And what's with the giant statue? Are we talking Aztec or Inca or Egyptian or what?

Posted by: Slash at February 3, 2010 1:18 PM

jamiepants, if they could only work Olyphant in there somewhere...*sigh* I do loves me some Seth Bullock....

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 1:18 PM

Roaddog, maybe I misunderstood - did you mean the other Others and not Cindy?

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 1:19 PM

And I do enjoy Sayid's luscious man locks. Sawyer's, too. Hot doctor (Jack) looks better with the shaved-close-to-military-style hair. The hair he's got now makes him look like he should be a member of the Mad Men cast (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Posted by: Slash at February 3, 2010 1:22 PM

I don't know Janet - he wants to go home, wherever that is. Maybe off island he can wreak havoc?

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 1:23 PM

But you agree that answers, though not necessarily neat or tidy or linear, ARE good at some point, right? Especially in an ongoing dramatic series?

And leaving almost everything unanswered over time (or just completely changing the rules! Or just having it all a mirage! Or creating parallel universes!) can cause people to give up and tune out?

Because given what I understand happened last night and leading up to it, I've had my decision to give up on this mess back at the end of the second (or third? can't remember) season completely validated.

I mean, honest to God, this show is written with Mad Libs. I got the sense way back then that the writers put all sorts of different ideas and things on the wall and then just blindfold themselves, throw darts and it, and cobble it all together.

It's the worst worst worst most long-running variation on "oh, it was just a dream!" that I have ever seen. LOST is imaginative, I'll give it that. But when it comes to really crafting a good story, it's lazy and has a big dose of crazy.

Posted by: Snuggiepants the Deathbringer at February 3, 2010 1:24 PM

Cindy Honestly, I think of Jacob v. MIB and their debate about the goodness of mankind as very much a God/Devil thing (Job!)-only given the INTERMINABLE hieroglyphics on the island, I've been trying to shoehorn that mentality into an Egyptology setting. The best I've been able to come up with is Sobek for Jacob (this is based mostly off the crocodile head on the giant statue). According to the ever-reliable internet: "

"Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part."

This is kind of bang on with what we've seen of Jacob, appearing in people's lives (Kate, Sawyer, etc.) when they are hurting or despairing and not correcting or changing the evil (NOT saving Nadiya, but being there for Sayid when she is killed).

MIB, I would assume, is Set, god of Chaos and Evil (according to some) who takes many forms, including a crocodile-headed man.

All of this is half-baked but not totally far-fetched.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 1:24 PM

I'm waiting for the Vincent-centric episode. Perhaps this all makes more sense from a dog's perspective.

Posted by: logar at February 3, 2010 1:26 PM

What I mean is this: We see the conversation between Jacob and the Man in Black on the beach, while what appears to be the Black Rock sails in, which puts this in the mid-19th century. That is all we have seen of the MIB. Now in the "current time", we see that Jacob was able to be physically killed. Where has the MIB been since that conversation in the 1850s? Was he killed at some point in the interim? Was he a god-person that had already been killed and was assuming the appearance of the MIB at the time of that conversation? I might be persuaded to see that they may both be something other than strictly human, but clearly not so very far off, if they can be killed. Though the bit about only one being able to "control" the island at a time is nicely repeated in various spots, including that only one person can be the leader at a time, and only one person can see Jacob at a time, and it also makes me think perhaps Widmore has been angling all along to be the one who takes over if and when Jacob and the MIB are ... well, no longer able to do so.

My brain is kind of running in circles, and it's a little hard to think over the squirrel cage...

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 1:27 PM

I've got nothing much to add. I thought last night's episode was solid, and I'm sufficiently confused to carry me through the next fifteen or sixteen weeks. I am going to cry like a little baby when this series is over.

Posted by: Kolby at February 3, 2010 1:27 PM

Yeah I think Ben has NO IDEA that there is a MIB. I also think that, for a long time, whoever has been presenting themselves as Jacob, has actually been the MIB. Ben said he had never SEEN Jacob, right? Am I remembering that correctly? "Christian Shepard" said he was Jacob, or an emissary of Jacob, but that was just dirty dirty lies.

If you go back, (as we did this summer) and rewatch the show and assume, every time a dead person show up that this is MIB (Ol'Smokey Himself), trying to manipulate the plot and characters to his endgame (which I thought was killing Jacob but now seems to be going home-they might be interconnected) it will blow your DAMN mind.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 1:32 PM

cib a solid hypothesis.

Cindy, oh, havoc most definite I'm guessing...

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 1:33 PM

p.s. Re: Jack Bauer v. Sayid cage match. . .I request a Desmond themed cage match where Desmond uses only charm and a Scottish burr to wrangle his opponent into submission. THERE WASN'T NEARLY ENOUGH DESMOND IN THIS EPISODE.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 1:33 PM

We already knew that smokey couldn't kill virtuous people (locke in the jungle)
Roaddog, we know no such thing. Virtuous is in the eye of the beholder, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still convinced it/he didn't harm Locke because he planned to use/manipulate him, once it/he decided not to use Jack.

I think it/he originally wanted to manipulate Jack the way he ended up manipulating Locke. Remember the time Christian led Jack off a cliff, but he didn't fall? I think Nemesis wanted to kill Jack and then assume his form. His plan to 'become' Locke has been long plotted.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 1:35 PM

Cindy Honestly I had forgotten that the stewardess ended up with the talies. I could have sworn she was the same one who was wearing a headband of some sort, hanging with the Other Others (or Temple Others, whatever you want to call them,) last night. When Jack and friends first showed up at the the temple after being kidnapped in the tunnels I thought the woman who said something along the lines of "they're from the plane" was the same booze-enabling stewardess from the beginning of the episode.

Again, it could be I was mistaken and they aren't the same person.

Previously I was lamenting the fact that we have more new characters to deal with. Not her specifically, but angry english asian and the lennon looking sidekick.

Sidenote: Typing all this, with tags, on my droid eris is a bitch and a half.

Posted by: Roaddog at February 3, 2010 1:36 PM

My prediction, the karate chop leader guy is Magnus Hanzo. The captain of the Black Rock.

Posted by: brandexler at February 3, 2010 1:39 PM

Roaddog, you're both right (and pretty). Cindy was with the Tailies and got nabbed by the others (and went Native, it appears).

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 1:41 PM

(NOT saving Nadiya, but being there for Sayid when she is killed)

But he wasn't there for Sayid. He just kept Sayid from being hit by the car. Or, depending on your perspective, ensured Nadia WAS hit by the car. Then he walked away.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 1:42 PM

Hmmm, I think you're right on that front, Patty O'Green. I still think the main theme was comfort. . .but poor Sayid didn't even get an Apollo Bar.

Seriously, guys, I'm funemployed, can you tell?

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 1:44 PM

My prediction, the karate chop leader guy is Magnus Hanzo

Magnus Hanso is supposed to be Danish or something, & you can see Alvar Hanso, a white dude, in some Dharma videos.

Posted by: the new transported man at February 3, 2010 1:47 PM

I request a Desmond themed cage match where Desmond uses only charm and a Scottish burr to wrangle his opponent into submission.

Can he please also be wearing a kilt? Thanks.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 1:49 PM

I take back my prediction about Jack and Locke. I think maybe Jack will repair Locke's spine, and that will be the one happy ending we get in the alternate reality. It would be all sorts of bittersweet and resonant when juxtaposed with the other fate.

By the way, humorous text message I received from a friend this morning: "Nikki and Paulo have made it to LAX with the diamonds! Yay!!"

I quipped that they still probably turn on each other Treaasure-of-the-Sierra-Madre style.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 1:52 PM

Hm, you know, what IS up with Cindy and the two kids? They've been all over the place. They were with the Dharma Others back in the day (remember when they brought food to Jack in the cage?), and now they're at the temple. Interesting.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 1:53 PM

About the dead/alive issue with Jacob and the MIB, I am also of the opinion that both entities are more than human and have been around for a hell of a long time. That being said, does anyone think that Jacob isn't really dead at all? If he is indeed more than human I doubt that he's all of a sudden going to meet his end by letting Ben stab him with no resistance whatsoever. I wonder if Jacob telling Hurley he is dead and to go to the temple is simply a way to deliver a message that MIB is back and bad as ever.

Also, the part where MIB tells Ben Locke's last thoughts damn near broke my heart. That man had the saddest life with the saddest end.


coveredinbees and Patty, hearing Greg Grunberg made me squee a little too. So glad Lost is back!

Posted by: Even Stevens at February 3, 2010 1:54 PM

I request a Desmond themed cage match where Desmond uses only charm and a Scottish burr to wrangle his opponent into submission.

Can he please also be wearing a kilt? Thanks.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 1:49 PM

oooooohhhhh...yessssss

kthxbai

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 1:57 PM

I have nothing to submit to the discussion besides Josh Holloway did some great actressing last night. I can't believe they killed Juliet twice.

Also, I'm excited to see what undead Sayid is going to do.

Posted by: kelsy at February 3, 2010 1:59 PM

What about The Battle of the Scrapping Scotsmen? James McAvoy vs. Desmond? Both be-kilted? Ewan MacGregor can tap in too.

p.s. Carlson, I hope my on-topic ramblings above earn me some cage match planning time in your Lost thread. Thankkssssss.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:01 PM

Roaddog - Cindy was with the Tailies and with the Others. The question that remains is, was she always an Other? Like Illana...somehow involved in something all along? That's my guess.

AvB, Jacob's killing was all wierded out to me, and I'm not convinced he could be so easily "killed". I maintain that he and the MIB are non-human entities. This is why they have a sort of eternal life, not unlike our pal Richard. This is why MIB could be around for so long. And as I speculated above, just because whomever appeared to Hurley said he was dead Jacob, does not make it so. MIB tries to use people to do his bad deed bidding, while Jacob tries for the opposite. Clearly at the end of the show last night, MIB was getting perturbed things weren't going as he wished. I wonder what he's going to do with Richard? Use him in some way to get into the temple?

coveredinbees, I like your thoughts, but I will say that I (for inexplicable reasons) don't think we'll get so specific, as in - so and so is this specific god, or that specific entity. I don't get a feeling that is Lost's way.

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 2:02 PM


"At one point, even Desmond shows up and chats with Jack, which was a genuinely confusing moment, albeit a pleasing one; I wonder how they’ll reconcile that"

In that alternate timeline, Whitmore would have been killed in the '77 explosion (as well penny? although she may have been already off the island at that point?). That would keep him from messing with Desmond. So, Desmond would have never gone to do the sailing expedition and therefore wouldn't be on the island, ultimately freeing him up for some vacation time down-under and a bit of air travel. Of course, that doesn't explain why Jack would recognize him then, because if that was the case, they wouldn't have met in that stadium because Des wouldn't have been training. Oh, fuck it. I have no clue.

Posted by: fourtyjr at February 3, 2010 2:02 PM

"Any thoughts on why Sayid woke up?
Could it be like Fake John Locke and it is only Sayid's body possessed?" Matt T

My first thought about Sayid is that he is the New Jacob. But now that you remind me that Ben was healed in the temple and imbued with a spark of the island's spirit, I'm questioning my first thought. I'm not completely ruling out that Sayid could be the New Jacob, but I am now considering that he could be the Anti-Ben. stardust

1. The water is losing its mojo at the same time that Jacob has been killed.

2. Richard said he's seen a lot of strange things on the island, but no one have never come back to life -- several people said Sayid is dead, capital D dead.

3. before he dies, Sayid remunerates his incomparable litany of sins for Hurley (the show's audience surrogate) -- speaks of the dark destination waiting for him, reminding us of his heavy karmic load. . .

4. Jacob sends letter to the leader of the others saying that Sayid is very, very important and can not be allowed to expire

5. long time later, Sayid is not dead -- not revived like Ben, saved from a fatal wound, but resurrected, back from the other side -- Richard, the island's historian, would tell us that this is a unique occurrence.

6. all of this happens at roughly the same time --

possibility: Jacob's presence gives the fountain of Youth its power, and as he dies, it's strength fades, but like a star going super-nova, there is one last burst of energy that resurrects Sayid, dude with a debt, got some work left to do

Is he the new Jacob -- what does that mean?
Does he have superpowers?
Is he immortal? Well, he already died, right? immune to death?
time will tell.


Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 2:03 PM

And that means there's no Penny?!?!??!

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:04 PM

might i suggest "parallel flash" or something of that sort instead of "flash sideways"?

Posted by: emily at February 3, 2010 2:07 PM

Jacob is bad ya'll.
He uses everyone for his own gain, which is apparently, sitting on his ass on his own private island fucking with everyone.
Here's how it will end folks,
Jacob sits alone on his island/prison like a spoiled little brat who is mean to everyone and then hateful that no one wants play with him.
The black smoke monster (GOOD GUY!!! WOULDN'T YOU BE PISSED IF YOU WERE STUCK ON AN ISLAND WITH SOME SUPERIOR DOUCHE WHO WOULD NOT LET YOU LEAVE?????? I WOULD)goes the fuck home, wherever/whenever that is (and probably kisses his wife and hugs his kid), and Sawyer and Juliette meet for coffee.
Fuck Jack! He is an irritating moron and no one cares what happens to him.
Also "I hate the way english tastes in my mouth"?
This shit should have aired on the scifi channel 10 years ago.
JUST END ALREADY!

Posted by: Anon at February 3, 2010 2:14 PM

Re: Cindy and the kids
They were stolen from the tailies on the first night, and were integrated into the Others. Remember them visiting the "zoo" to see Jack? She seems to be at peace with "what the Island wants", which would explain her passive response to Miagi wanting the 815ers shot.

As for her being with the others, and then with the "temple folk", we need to remember the temple folk ARE the Others. When they left the Barracks, they all went to the Temple. They have been there all along. We are meeting some new ones, obviously, but it is the same group, essentially.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 2:17 PM

Re: Desmond's pop-in
I don't know how I feel about this "popping in and out" theory (mmm, sounds dirty), as if to suggest he was time/space traveling. I do, however, LOVE the idea that Jack hallucinated him. It never occured to me, but it would be fun. Although I have no clue what it would mean.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 2:19 PM

"Despite that nice exchange between Jack and Locke and Hurley's incessant good luck, I'm thinking that maybe the alternate future will be going straight to hell. I'm foreseeing things along these lines: a botched surgery for John Locke at Jack's hands, Sawyer swindling Hurley out of his money (don't underestimate that character arc that Sawyer underwent on the island that a lack of crash has now prevented), Kate's being killed in a hail of gunfire (or maybe Claire and unborn Aaron in the crossfire), Jin and Sun's marriage falling apart, etc.

And I'm wondering if Jack won't be experiencing more and more "deja vu." The disappearance of his father's body and the appearance of Desmond (hallucination by Jack?) indicate to me that there will be a tangible link to what could have been. Once everything has gone to hell, will a haunted Jack be the only one left to seek answers? Maybe he'll track down Ellie or Faraday? And then will the lesson ultimately be to leave things as they were, thus bringing us full circle?"

DarthCorleone


So . . . . the writers were sitting around watching It's a Wonderful Life, and said "What the Hell, I can't think of anything better"?

Jack throws a lasso round the island and drags it up from the bottom of the ocean, then goes running down the beach yelling "Hello Swan Hatch!, Hello Four Toed Statue!, Merry Christmas ya olde Smoke Monster!"

I was thinking the same thing . . .

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 2:28 PM

Interesting theory from a friend:
I think Richard was a slave on the Black Rock and that's what Nemesis was talking about when he said it was good to see Richard "out of those chains."

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 2:28 PM

I can't agree on Desmond being an hallucination. And I definitely think we are meant to believe Desmond time traveled there - else he wouldn't have disappeared. He wasn't just real Desmond joy-riding.

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 2:29 PM

Patty hilarious that you called him Miyagi because I almost called him Pat Morita. Does that make me racist? Possibly? Is the character a stereotype? Definitely.

You know, the thing I love about time travel plots is the "what was supposed to happen will always happen no matter what you do" concept. Charlie has to die (brutha), etc. So what I would LOVE to see, is somehow things happening (Locke walks not because of island mumbo, but because of Jack OR Sawyer and Juliet DO meet for coffee and go dutch and get married and SCREW YOU KATE YOU MANIPULATIVE D-BAG), just happening in a different way. You can't change the future (unless you're Scott Bakula).

One interesting theory someone had was that we're not in an alternative reality, but rather flashing forward and back once more. With 2004 being the past of the 2007 we're seeing and that they'll converge and while it looks like the 2007 we're seeing this season is the same one, it might actually be a result of a non-crash 2004 timeline. They all end up on that fucking island (somehow floated up from the bottom of the sea. hmmmm, maybe I haven't fully sussed this out), somehow.

Inevitability. That's all I'm saying.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:32 PM

I want to go on record as predicting that AlternateTimelineJuliet invites AlternateTimelineSawyer for a cup of coffee in a future episode.

Posted by: Gesikah at February 3, 2010 2:33 PM

Richard DEF a Black Rock slave. Do they let slaves wear guyliner?

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:34 PM

Jack throws a lasso round the island and drags it up from the bottom of the ocean, then goes running down the beach yelling "Hello Swan Hatch!, Hello Four Toed Statue!, Merry Christmas ya olde Smoke Monster!"

Your disdain for the show makes me want to dislike you, but this is the most hilarious thing I've read today, Kosmic Koyote.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:36 PM

Patty >> I agree with you. I don't think Desmond is popping in and out. Desmond in the LAX reality never even gets exposed to the effects of the season-two finale, so he would have no reason to be slipping through time and space. Additionally, wasn't it only his consciousness that was mobile within his own body at different times, and not his physical form?

If Jack hallucinated him, it would mean that his LAX self has some sort of residual awareness of the alternate universe, which is appropriate given that he is the one who spearheaded the bomb mission and dropped it in the hole. We've already been shown that awareness of the alternate reality could exist, as Juliet's ghost told us about it.

Then again, it might just be that Desmond happened to be on the plane in one of those usual LOST coincidences, and they're screwing with us. I tend to think, though, that the only way the realities can converge again is if LAX Jack figures out what was going on. I think he was staring at himself a little too long in that mirror for there to not be some sort of subconscious awareness.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 2:38 PM

I think he was staring at himself a little too long in that mirror for there to not be some sort of subconscious awareness.

What was the cut on his neck? Is that continuity I'm missing, or an island wound that carried over and then supports that residual theory.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:45 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> Fine. I'm a horrible writer. I've never seen It's A Wonderful Life. I do think the simplest messages make for the most powerful narratives, though. Anything this show does is going to be recycled in some sense with respect to the usual storytelling tropes, though. It's not what the story is, but how it's about it.

Gesikah >> Good call. Maybe alternate-Sawyer does get his happy ending.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 2:45 PM

Also, do we ever actually see that Claire is pregnant? I have only watched it once so it is possible that I missed it, but the only shot I saw of her was in the cab, which was only from the neck up.

Posted by: gesikah at February 3, 2010 2:46 PM

coveredinbees >> Physical manifestation of the wounds he just received in the alternate reality? I don't know what else it would be. It does seem a little on the nose, though, if it is.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 2:48 PM

gesikah >> I couldn't tell. I would have to look at the shot in the cab again. Given the name of next week's episode ("What Kate Does"), I think we'll learn that fairly quickly, if it's not discernible from that one shot.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 2:50 PM

Maybe alternate-Sawyer does get his happy ending.

I'll give Sawyer a....oh, never mind. Too obvious.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 2:51 PM

I thought he was going to open his shirt and see the appendix removal scar.

P.S. This is what a friend texted ME "Christian Shephard is running around that underwater island with a bag of knives!"

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:51 PM

I'll give Sawyer a....oh, never mind. Too obvious

Too delicious! Add him to the cage match lineup!

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 2:53 PM

I third the notion that Richard was a Black Rock slave....just mentioned that to a co-worker today.

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 2:53 PM

Cindy >> I do think it's a possibility that Desmond didn't disappear. He could have just moved seats. Hallucination or time-jumping seem more likely, though.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 2:56 PM

If you don't, stardust, then I will!

HA! coveredinbees, your friend's text, like your name, made me laugh out loud!

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 2:58 PM

coveredinbees, I think you're right about the inevitability of everything that happens to the core characters. I predict that Kate will end up with Aaron because Claire will go into labor, deliver, and she will either give Aaron to Kate or Kate will steal him. Sawyer and Juliet will still meet and fall in love. Jack and Kate will continue to deserve one another and have an on-again-off-again douche-smelling relationship. Jin and Sun will reconcile. Locke will walk again. Etc.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 2:58 PM

What are the Ricardos Alpert theories in regardless to eternal life? Why would a Black Rock slave end up with the same immortality as MIB and Jacob?

Posted by: maydays at February 3, 2010 3:00 PM

Not sure why no one has mentioned this, but I think It's somehow important that the stewardess only gave Jack one bottle of vodka instead of two. Why? Why is this, above all else, stuck in my brain?

Posted by: the_wakeful at February 3, 2010 3:03 PM

Hmm, wakeful, I noticed it, but it didn't sink in. I remember thinking, "Didn't he get two? Because he used one to sterilize his on Island wound, right?"

Good catch. I wonder...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 3:11 PM

DarthCorleone - Cool thanks. I had wondered to myself while watching it if she was (still?) pregnant and was actually intrigued that the scene was shot in such a way that it wasn't revealed. Thought maybe I had missed something since it seemed to be assumed that she was.

My current suspicion is that we will begin to see the two timelines converge. My husband put it thusly "It's like the pendulum (Eloise Hawking revealed in 316), you can knock it off course, but eventually it will right itself."

I had also wondered about Desmond being on the plane. My initial assumption was that he had completed his journey and was on his way back to marry Penny, but if Whidmore got blowed up then...yeah. I don't know.

Posted by: gesikah at February 3, 2010 3:13 PM

Darth>>I've seens a lot of theories floating around today about the 2 timelines, but I think Darleton is (are?) fucking with us. I don't think it's two at all, just different points on the same one. I agree that things will quickly go to hell for the "non-crash" crew but I think they'll have to figure out someway (Hawking? Faraday? Shouldn't they both be dead if the Island sank in 1977) to go back to 1977 and NOT blow up the bomb. This will lead to an explosion of EM energy from the drilling that shoots them all to 2007 to catch up with Sun, Lapidus, F Locke, et all. I think this would best explain the "It worked" comment from Juliette. Thoughts? Anyone?

Posted by: dummy at February 3, 2010 3:15 PM

I hope when ConMan Sawyer swindles poor Hurley (or maybe not if he really is a lucky dude now) he takes only some of his money and not all of it.

I also hope that Island Sawyer was lying when he said he had decided not to kill Jack because I. Want. Jack. Dead.

Posted by: jules at February 3, 2010 3:15 PM

Richard was made Jacob's "pet" slave and granted immortality to continue to serve him?

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 3:15 PM

What are the Ricardos Alpert theories in regardless to eternal life? Why would a Black Rock slave end up with the same immortality as MIB and Jacob?

Maybe Richard is some sort of demigod condemned to the island as punishment, but not a god on the level of Jacob and MIB? Was he chained up and forced to suffer a la Prometheus? Those are my initial thoughts.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 3:16 PM

What are the Ricardos Alpert theories in regardless to eternal life? Why would a Black Rock slave end up with the same immortality as MIB and Jacob?

It's amazing the multitude of sins a little eyeliner can cover.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 3:18 PM

My co-worker has told me several times his fear that at the end of the season, this will all turn out to be the imaginings of some autistic kid looking at a painting of an island and a broken toy.

I think the whole thing is in Vincent's mind...except its in color.....never mind.

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 3:19 PM

dummy >> Yeah, you're right about Ellie and Faraday. Presumably they would be dead in LAX-reality. Jack would have to find other means for his answers in my hypothesis.

I don't think, though, that we're looking at two points on the same timeline. Sending them back to 1977 yet again to deal with that bomb would be very tiring to me. (And didn't they publicly say that we're done with that sort of time travel?)

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 3:20 PM

You know, I love all of the guyliner comments, and always have, but for anyone who doesn't know, that is just how Nestor's eyes look in real life. He must have cray-zay lashes or something. You know, to go with the caterpillar-brows.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 3:21 PM

Did they? Damn! Oh well, there goes another perfectly good theory of mine regarding this show.

Posted by: dummy at February 3, 2010 3:22 PM

I can't keep up with all this.

If I remember, when Ben first took Locke to meet "Jacob", the brief glimpse you got of him was of an older, bearded, grizzled dude. So I'm guessing that he was really the MIB, and that circle of ash around the cabin was to keep him trapped there.

I found the alternate timelines to be interesting, but also a kind of cheap way to both reset everything, and yet keep it the same. It was nice to see Boone and Charlie up and about.

I also noticed Miles' reaction to not getting anything from Sayid--whether it was because he never died or because Jacob is now using him as MIB used the dead Locke is anyone's guess. Damn, but Fake Locke was seriously evil-looking when he said he wanted to go home. I actually backed away from the TV.

And while I also agree that revealing the secrets exposition-style would be awful and lazy, there had BETTER be some damn answers. You can't go around dropping polar bears into the jungle, and having smoke monsters and time travel and healing temples and skeletons in caves and weird whispering, and then just act like it's all self-explanatory. Just some general theories will be fine--I don't need every detail explained.

Dude does not deserve this.

Yes, yes he does. Sawyer totally deserves this. It's easy to forgot once he got Dharma-ized, but he was a first-class dick most of the seasons, a sleazy con-man and a murderer, a chauvinist pig and a racist who hoarded guns and medicine and only gave those up by forcing Kate to make out with him. He's an interesting character and I like having him around, but a few years of decent behavior does not grant him absolution.

Posted by: DeadBessie at February 3, 2010 3:23 PM

New thought: where is Ben in the LAX timeline? How will he be involved?

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 3:23 PM

AND, I've seen comments about the irony of having them relive the original flight on Groundhog Day.

Don't fly angry.

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 3, 2010 3:24 PM

Yeah, y'all might be right about the course-correction thing as opposed to everything going to hell in LAX-reality. If that's the case, though, and nothing is fundamentally different, from a storytelling sense, what would be the point of having a separate thread?

gesikah >> I might be wrong about this, but if Widmore was killed by the bomb, in LAX-reality Penny might still exist. Didn't we learn last season that Widmore's first child (Penny) had already been born in 1977 and was living off the island? Whether or not that means Desmond is still couple with her would remain to be seen.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 3:25 PM

So I'm guessing that he was really the MIB, and that circle of ash around the cabin was to keep him trapped there.

As much as I really like that theory, it doesn't work because the Smoke Monster, his alter-ego/natural form, was banging trees around since ep 1.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 3:26 PM

Ben? I think he's under da sea! And, for the record, natural or no, Nestor's eyes are amazing and I love guy liner in all forms except on emo boyz.

Before the whole Black Rock slave reveal, I thought Richard Alpert (RA by the way-I know, I know, I agree we're not going to get specific with Egyptian gods, but allusions are fun!) was an ancient Egyptian and that he was deeply deeply into kohl. But if you say that's just how BatManuel looks, I believes ya.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 3:29 PM

Cindy, that's pretty much what I think about Jacob/MIB. MIB has been under Jacob's control, and has been hating it--we know he's been wanting to kill Jacob for a very long time. And he's trapped on the Island (as a sort of hell for him? maybe he was punished by a higher authority to be there and "under" Jacob), needed to get Jacob killed (but couldn't do it himself) and now needs to get into the Temple to leave.

And so I think that MIB's comment to Richard about the chains meant that, as Jacob's servant, MIB thinks that Richard was "bound" to do Jacob's bidding and wasn't free. And now that Jacob is dead, Richard is free of those "chains" (which Richard didn't seem to mind but maybe MIB just thought Richard was a puppet).

Badass Japanese Dude was in The Last Samurai. Where he also played Badass Japanese Dude. I like him.

Posted by: figgy at February 3, 2010 3:31 PM

"So I'm guessing that he was really the MIB, and that circle of ash around the cabin was to keep him trapped there."

Good thought! Also explains Bram and WhatsHerName burning the cabin. If I could wrap my brain around the time-travel stuff I would be able to explain why the piece of tapestry MIBLocke cut from the temple was already in the cabin when they burned it.

Posted by: maydays at February 3, 2010 3:31 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> Fine. I'm a horrible writer. I've never seen It's A Wonderful Life. I do think the simplest messages make for the most powerful narratives, though. Anything this show does is going to be recycled in some sense with respect to the usual storytelling tropes, though. It's not what the story is, but how it's about it.

DarthCorleone

Woah Dood

I don't think you are a horrible writer at all -- I was'nt attacking you at all -- I think your read might turn out to be very accurate -- Jake's always on a trip about how this wasn't supposed to happen, and maybe now he gets a peek at what the alternative would have been. I'm kinda hoping they go full scorched earth, Kate dead, Aaron adopted out to whatever apocalyptically bad end they've been hinting at all series long, Jin in jail, Sawyer an unredeemed asshole, etc. -- maybe it turns out that the uncrashed plane reality turns out to be Jack's own private little hell (never liked em anyway).

I totally agree with your point about telling an old story in a new way -- what else is there to do really?

So again, I wasn't attacking you and I apologize if it seemed like I was. I was smellin the same bacon from the kitchen that you were -- that's all

Friends?


and speaking of recycled -- how come nobody's doing a shout out for Ben whining about "Why didn't he fight back?" and the whole "killing me will only make me stronger" Obi Wan thing?

The Nemisisy is gonna be awful pissed off when he finds out that Jacob has two mediums with which to communicate with his people; and now that he's dead and incorporeal, kinda "literally" untouchable.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 3:32 PM

I want to know who broke the circle of ashes, and who was trapped in that cabin. My thinking is that MIB was trapped in there, forced to go out only when the leader of the Others (ie, Ben) "summoned" him. But someone broke the ash circle and he was able to roam free and go around manipulating Ben to kill Jacob. Or something, not sure.

Posted by: figgy at February 3, 2010 3:34 PM

coveredinbees>>If you go back and rewatch the show and assume
every time a dead person shows up that this is MIB trying to manipulate
the plot and characters to his endgame it will blow your DAMN mind

I espoused this theory after last season's finale: Was the MIB assuming
different forms trying to find a likely candidate for his nefarious plan?
Locke is the obvious choice in the long run.

The first thing I said to Mr. Julian this morning was "how did the flight
attendant know who Jack etc. were?" Thank you to everyone who
clarified her identity. It took me a good half hour to figure out who
in the suffering fuck the Vincent in everyone's comments was.

Seriously, did Juliet have to have TWO death scenes? Glowery Sawyer
just makes me laugh. Cynical Sawyer makes me "squee" (is that
what the kids say?).

If it weren't for the DVR I think I would have gone insane watching the
show. We started at 9:30 to avoid commercials and still ending
up tying with the 11 o'clock conclusion. Expressed that way it seems
like a standard amount of time lost to commercials but in island time
it felt like eons.

Are the producers pulling a Conan on ABC? With all of the new
cast members it seems like they are trying to spend
as much money as possible before the show ends.

I don't mind that the show makes my brain hurt; stuff this machination-
laden is all about the ride. I still can't remember who did it in The Thin Man
or what the point of it all was in LA Confidential but they're both great rides.
That said, I will mind if there isn't a satisfying resolution with only
a few remaining questions. You know they aren't going to give
us a complete answer. Shall we speculate on what we'll never know?

Posted by: Mrs Julian (because Supercomfypampertimefloatythrone is too long to type) at February 3, 2010 3:38 PM

DeadBessie >> I think most of Sawyer's bad behavior was in season 1, such that by the end of season 1 I remember being impressed with his arc and how likable he had become. (That whole hoarding-guns thing in season 2 was just stupid. His and Charlie's behavior in the middle of season 2 were to me the worst missteps of the series and seemed like a stalling tactic by the writers.) Granted, he does kill Cooper in season 3, but that was a tough murder for him to resist.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 3:39 PM

You know I am all for Sawyer and Juliet having a cup of joe, going dutch, but 2004 Swayer is a sad, unformed jiggly mass of a man compared to 1977 Sawyer, which is whom Juliet fell for. Likewise, Juliet was a little spineless before she came to the island. Both of them did a lot of growing up before they became the badass power couple of the Dharma Initiative. So unless Sawyer goes through some accelerated growth process, I don't like that couple happening in alterna-time.

A fun game I was playing with this episode was whose life is better/worse if the plane doesn't crash? You know, "Yay! Boone's alive! Booo, Rose is gonna die. Yay! Hurley is really lucky cause the numbers aren't cursed and he's happy and dude! Booo, Charlie is going to be detoxing in a jail cell and maybe never gets true redemption." Etc.

It's a mixed bag, which is how I like my lettuce and my television plots.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 3:40 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> Sorry. There was supposed to be some wit there that didn't come across correctly. My fault. :- )

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 3:40 PM

Hey, did anybody happen to catch what book HallucinoDesmond was reading on the plane?

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 3:42 PM

@figgy But it wasn't just the smoke monster gadding about, shouldn't we assume all the "ghosts" (Christian Shephard, Mr. Eko's brother, etc) that various characters saw on the island was the MIB/Ol' Smokey? That was happening very early on. I AM curious about the cabin and the circle of ash, though. And who's frantic eyeball that was we saw in the cabin.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 3:45 PM

Haroun and the Sea of Stories-Salman Rushdie

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 3:46 PM

Patty / Figgy >> Yes, I think that's where they're going with the Smoke Monster / MIB. He was trapped in the cabin but was free to roam in the earlier seasons when Ben (or whomever among the Others) summoned him. My question would then be: each time we saw Smokey manifest in seasons one through three, was he being called to specifically interact with the characters with whom we saw him interact, or was he doing that on his own time? Did the Others just periodically let him out to go for a walk?

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 3:48 PM

which would explain her passive response to Miagi wanting the 815ers shot.

calling Sanada "Miagi" is kinda be like calling a black character "Remus"

although with the karate and the bonsai, I can see it

I'm hoping he turns out to be an actual twelfth century samurai -- totally possible with the way the show works -- that would be uber

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 3:48 PM

Ah. I thought perhaps it was Our Mutual Friend...

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 3:50 PM

fuck -- kinda be like

no edit button, huh?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 3:50 PM

from another post:

The book the Frenchman in the temple tunnel had on him was Søren Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling.

from Wiki:

"The title is a reference to a line from Philippians 2:12, "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Fear and Trembling presents a highly original and provocative interpretation of the Binding of Isaac story as told in Genesis Chapter 22, and uses the story as an occasion to discuss fundamental issues in moral philosophy and the philosophy of religion, such as the nature of God and faith, faith's relationship with ethics and morality, and the difficulty of being authentically religious."

"In Fear and Trembling Kierkegaard introduces the "Knight of Faith" and contrasts him with the "knight of infinite resignation". The latter gives up everything in return for the infinite, that which he may receive after this life, and continuously dwells with the pain of his loss. The former, however, not only relinquishes everything, but also trusts that he will receive it all back, his trust based on the "strength of the absurd".

For Kierkegaard, infinite resignation is easy, but faith is founded in the belief in the absurd. The absurd is that which is contradictory to reason itself.

[en.wikipedia.org]

The book Des was reading on the plane was Haroun and the Sea of Stories by Salman Rushdie.

From Wiki:

"Haroun and the Sea of Stories is a 1990 children's book[1] by Salman Rushdie. It was Rushdie's first novel after The Satanic Verses. It is a phantasmagorical story set in a city so old and ruinous that it has forgotten its name.[2]"

The book includes the following things:

- an ancient city so old that people forgot it existed
- a war between the rulers of that ancient city
- a main character who is represented by two sides of himself: an "anthropomorphic shadow" and a "diminished man"
- a "poisoned ocean" caused by above man's splitting of himself into two parts
- a potential mutiny of one of the warring tribes led by a man who isn't the leader
- the anthropomorphic shadow has the ability to "appear identical" to some of the people in the city
- a plan to destroy the ocean using "complicated machines powered by electromagnetic induction"
- the Big Bad is killed at the end after his ice palace melts and his giant statue falls on him
- "a landscape whose weather changes to reflect the emotions of the people currently present in it"
- the two tribes are kept apart "by a force field named Chattergy's Wall"
- "At the South Pole of Kahani is a spring known as the Source of Stories, from which (according to the premise of the plot) originated all stories ever communicated. The prevention of this spring's blockage therefore forms the climax of the novel's own story."

Posted by: shawnp at February 3, 2010 3:54 PM

Damn, coveredinbees, you're good. I looked that up before realising you had answered. Imma call you QuickDraw!

The only justification I see for assuming Jacob is evil and the Nemesis is good is for the twist of it. I see absolutely no evidence to support it; it just falls under "Oh, wouldn't that be a fun and unexpected twist", which is a category this show often pulls from.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 3:54 PM

Like I said, Patty, I'm funemployed and it's raining here. And, being a lit geek, I love the Lost use of literature throughout. It's been very cool. Maybe I should do a cannonball read with significant Lost books.

I was thinking about what you said about Jacob, and his interaction with Sayid and I wonder if it could be interpreted as Jacob saving Sayid (who we all know IS VERY IMPORTANT all of the sudden). If he hadn't asked for directions, maybe both of them would have been struck? I would have to rewatch the scene.

I think the saddest interaction is Jacob's with John Locke. As we all agree, John's storyline is probably just the saddest and most pathetic. He thought he was finally destined to be someone, after being crapped on his entire like. He thought he was important. And he was just being used. It's heartbreaking. So when Jacob, after John is thrown from the hospital, says "I'm sorry this happened to you" I feel is has further implications. . .

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 4:01 PM

Christian Shephard is running around that underwater island with a bag of knives!
coveredinbees

Funniest thing all day!

tip o the hat to you

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 4:04 PM

Roaddog: I think you're right and that is her. Not only does she wind up with the tailies, but she also joins up with The Others after she's kidnapped by them.

Loved the ep, love the discussion, and just need to say that Terry O'Quinn was the big winner for me last night. His portrayals of Sad Locke and Possessed Locke were SO GOOD!! So nuanced!! He did a great job with both roles.

I generally hate time travel stories because there are usually so many continuity problems with them, but I have to say that "Lost" has done such a great job not botching this. I feel like they thought of every possible (reasonable -- ) objection someone like me might have and decided to head me off at the pass! I love it!!

I love that "Lost" was able to gain a huge following and stay accessible without pandering to the largely idiotic masses. Propz to ABC for making that happen.

Posted by: Jelinas at February 3, 2010 4:06 PM

Man I love this site!

Posted by: Mrs Julian (because Supercomfypampertimefloatythrone is too long to type) at February 3, 2010 4:08 PM

Personally, I don't think the bomb went off in 1 timeline. I think the breaching of the "pocket" caused another flash that sent all the temporally misplaced losties back where they belong- the present, on the island in the non-nuke timeline. The "others" then build the Swan station etc...

The LA X timeline happens as a result of the nuke going off, as it sinks the island (not possible,, but for the sake of fiction...), makes it so Hawking/Widmore/Faraday/Ben either are dead or never existed. Penny must have been born prior to 1977, off island as I recall. It "worked". Everyone's paths changed in subtle ways. Desmond as seen in this episode is "hopping" between times... or is actually on the flight by coincidence.


Posted by: logar at February 3, 2010 4:09 PM

So when Jacob, after John is thrown from the hospital, says "I'm sorry this happened to you" I feel is has further implications. . .
Definitely, covered. I knew when he said it, last season, that it was relevant, and I think we STILL haven't felt the entirity of that sentiment.

And I LURVE the idea a Cannonball read of relevant books. I bought Aldous Huxley's Island, but never got to it.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 4:13 PM

Maybe zombieClaire broke the circle of ash. What was up with zombieClaire?!?

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 4:13 PM

So Claire was lured away by the Nemesis, in the form of Christian? Claire's story is one of the biggest question-mark-shaped-stains on this show, and I would love a solid resolution. I don't expect one, mind you. Just really hoping for you.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 4:32 PM

Just went and had some lunch with the brother and in the course of our Lost discussions (he's a rabid fan as well,) came up with a timeline explanation that blew the back of both our heads off.

What if the timeline that we're seeing now and assuming is the "alternate timeline" isn't a "what if the nuke went off" timeline but a "what if the island NEVER EXISTED AT ALL" timeline?

Stick with me, this is a little difficult to explain. You tl:dr types can just skip past it right now.

If the nuke was only the 1st part of what Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet had to do in order to get out of the time loop and change the course of the island forever, then their being plopped down next to the ruined hatch in "present day" would make sense. Up until now we all assumed that setting the nuke off on the pocket of electromagnetic energy was all that had to be done. I'm thinking it was only the 1st part of a multi-step process, with the rest of the necessary actions occuring in "present day" island time. Yes, they did PART of what they were supposed to do, but there's work left to be done before they truly hit the "reset" button on everything. What that could be is beyond me. In the past we've been told "there's a war coming, and you all play a role." I'm thinking that the war still happens even after the nuke goes off and Jack/Kate/Sawyer (probably not Juliet) all play a key role somehow. They still have to defeat the evil, whatever it is, and whichever side ends up being the evil one.

My prediction is that the last shot of the final episode will include the good guys (whoever they actually are,) finally winning this war, and the island sinking beneath the waves to the bottom of the ocean where we see it when Jack and the rest are on the plane in the "alternate timeline" we've been seeing so far. Only once the island is completely sunk beneath the waves can it no longer influence people's lives. (This obviously hasn't happened yet in present day island time.)

If the sunken island is incapable of effecting the main characters that would explain why Hurley is the "luckiest man alive." No more island fucking with him due to the numbers he picks getting him rich. If we see other evidence in the alternate timeline that the "canon" events that occurred prior to the plane ride haven't occurred at all in the alternate reality, then I think that I could actually be correct.

This would actually make the timeline that we're flashing to currently a "future - current" timeline. In other words, it IS things that are happening at the same time in an alternate reality, but only if the friends on the island complete the tasks assigned to them by fate/god/jacob whatever in the rest of the season/future.

Posted by: Roaddog at February 3, 2010 4:37 PM

logar - I like your theory, I like it A LOT.

Posted by: Mrs Julian (because Supercomfypampertimefloatythrone is too long to type) at February 3, 2010 4:39 PM

And so I think that MIB's comment to Richard about the chains meant that, as Jacob's servant, MIB thinks that Richard was "bound" to do Jacob's bidding and wasn't free. And now that Jacob is dead, Richard is free of those "chains" (which Richard didn't seem to mind but maybe MIB just thought Richard was a puppet). figgy

deep and lovely

I also thought he was talking about Richard having arrived to the island in the belly of the Black Rock, but this is way better -- maybe Nemesis/MiB is starting to work his magic on Richard, now that Ben has served his purpose?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 4:42 PM

I like Roaddog's too. Approbation for everyone!

Posted by: Mrs Julian (because Supercomfypampertimefloatythrone is too long to type) at February 3, 2010 4:43 PM

DarthCorleone - Ah, you probably got me there. I had no idea when Penny fit into it, missed most of one of the seasons.

Also an interesting thought: If all of this island chicanery is really just MiB's attempt to "get home" and Jacob's attempting to thwart him then...it's basically an illustration of the Jack/Locke dynamic eh? Almost repulsively literal.

One of my reasons for thinking that the two timelines will converge is that over and over we have seen the themes of fate and one's lack of control in their own, not to mention the road to hell being paved with good intentions. I just wouldn't be at all surprised if the final outcome illustrated something along the lines of the conceit of believing you can change fate, much less control it. In the first season, even something as small as the tape on Charlie's fingers read Fate and then Late. It would seem that even Ben, who is the master of manipulation, has been been manipulated into killing the one man whose approval he most sought (Daddy issues much?). Even if you don't believe in a God or Fate, I think everyone has to face the fact that there are situations that are beyond your control.

Argh, sorry if that is a jumbled mess, I just have entirely too many thoughts jumbling around in my head right now. That and I haven't had running water for the past 36 hours.

Posted by: gesikah at February 3, 2010 4:49 PM

. My question would then be: each time we saw Smokey manifest in seasons one through three, was he being called to specifically interact with the characters with whom we saw him interact, or was he doing that on his own time?

I think (based on my admittedly flawed memory...I haven't re-watched any episodes at all) that he was doing at the command of the Others. What with Ben's almost complete knowledge of the plane people (I can't remember how he came about that), maybe he was just using MIB/Smokey to really explore the plane people and decide who was "worthy"? I'm really not sure. Now I'm also thinking that Jacob had him do some work, too?

Thanks, Kosmic. I'm also thinking that MIB knocking out Richard may have been 'payback' for something Richard to MIB did while following Jacob's lead--say, force MIB to do things he didn't want to do (I think Richard could also summon Smokey) and now MIB can finally get him back. I think he's gonna use Richard's "body" to try and bargain his way into the Temple.

And I LOVE the idea of it going the Jake way from Dark Tower. Veeeeeeery interesting, I hadn't even thought of that when I heard about how the creators were inspired by DT.

Posted by: figgy at February 3, 2010 4:52 PM

So what does the odd plumbing system under Ben's Barrack's house have to do with summoning Nemesis/Smoky? That was such a strange thing in the first place...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 5:00 PM

@Gabs I read somewhere that Maggie Grace has just been filming three movies back-to-back which is why she couldn't fit this in. I just had a look at IMDb and she appears to be in five movies due for release this year. So it seems she's pretty busy at the moment.

Posted by: Fiona at February 3, 2010 5:04 PM

Ick, why do they keep casting Maggie Grace in things? She has such permanent bitch-face.

Patty: uuuum...let met get back to you on that...

Posted by: figgy at February 3, 2010 5:06 PM

K, I'm definitely doing this Cannonball Read with Lost books, and I'm starting with the Dark Tower series (which I know is epic and long) so I know what in the hail you guys are talking about.

Here's a link to "all" the books even tangentially referred to on the show (some are MAJOR stretches). http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Literary_works

I'm going to call this Sawyer's Book Club until I can think of something better. Anyone who wants join me is awesome. Anyone who doesn't is also awesome.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 5:09 PM

Yes! Ben unclogs an ancient toilet and the smoke monster appears? SO STUPID. Not stupid and kind of cool is how the apparition of Christian Shephard in the lobby of FlashForwardJack's hospital set off the smoke detector. That I love.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 5:12 PM

I think I've read enough theories and speculation on the internet this morning to feel more than assured that I still really have no idea what's going or what's going to happen on this show. That's a good thing.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 5:21 PM

Roaddog: That. Is. OSSOM!!! I hope you're right!! Oh, man, I hope you're right!!!

Posted by: Jelinas at February 3, 2010 5:24 PM

The ONLY thing I can say about the SmokeyToilet mechanism is that it was a way that Smokey manipulated Ben into thinking that Ben was in control of the situation. Ben was given the idea that he was privy to the Secrets of Magic Island, and in this season, he is realizing he was being used the whole time. (This also explains why Smokey was "unable" to kill Keamey, allowing him to kill Alex. It didn't make sense that Smokey wouldn't finish the job, unless Smokey had its own agenda this whole time.)

Posted by: The Wandering Parakeet at February 3, 2010 5:26 PM

Holy crap, 166 comments! I have so much catching up to do.

Yay for the return of the recaps!!

Posted by: MelBivDevoe at February 3, 2010 5:29 PM

I like it coveredinbees. I'm in.

Posted by: stardust at February 3, 2010 5:29 PM

Cindy Honestly, I think of Jacob v. MIB and their debate about the goodness of mankind as very much a God/Devil thing (Job!)-only given the INTERMINABLE hieroglyphics on the island, I've been trying to shoehorn that mentality into an Egyptology setting. The best I've been able to come up with is Sobek for Jacob (this is based mostly off the crocodile head on the giant statue).

coveredinbees

I thought it was Sobek too, but the producers say it's Taweret (Goddess of childbirth and fertility) -- there's the Juliette, infertility story-line that still needs to be tied up.

Honestly, I don't think there's any way the writers are going to be able to sort this out in 11-12 more episodes (especially with them still piling new wood on the fire Fountain of Youth / Holy Grail / possibly resurrection

I agree with D.C. in that:

"answers . . . given explicitly for certain mysteries . . . taking the form of one character saying something along the lines of, 'Yes, I am indeed responsible for that, and here’s how I did it.'" is "how soap operas and bad movies work," but I think we need to see some Chekhovian resolutions or else a lot of this stuff is going to be a big pile of red herrings -- and nobody is gonna be happy with that.

What about Adam and Eve in Da Cave? The black and white stones? Are they gonna resolve that or pretend they never brought it up? They dumped the polar bear thing in a way that I can accept (implicitly admitting that they included polar bears in the jungle because they thought it would be a kewl WTF moment), but they have what seems like too many threads to actually play out. Oblique answers will be acceptable (to me), but a non-answer will not.

Obviously, the writers have changed their minds about some things -- i.e. -- originally, Jack was going to die immediately and Kate would be the leader (one-shot character becomes protagonist), Ben was supposed to be a minor character for an episode or two but then becomes the primary antagonist, etc., but it's not aesthetically pleasing if their final answer to the larger mysteries of the show is:

" . . .these are not the droids you're looking for . . . "


Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 5:30 PM

Ben never heard/met Jacob. Instructions all came through notes, presumably via Richard. Richard can't be evil, can he? I'm such a sucker for those eyes.

Posted by: maydays at February 3, 2010 5:33 PM

Roaddog >> Here's my quibble with that theory, using Hurley's luckiness as the example. The fact alone that the bomb is detonated on the island in 1977 could (and probably would) also prevent Hurley from getting a hold of the numbers without anything else being done. Of course, then I wonder: how did Hurley still obtain the numbers to win the lottery? Was it just fate/coincidence? I guess that's not a quibble with a theory as much as just an observation that any change in the show's canon does not necessarily imply that more things need to be done to vanquish the island. Differences could simply be attributed to the butterfly effect.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 5:34 PM

You know what I wish I didn't know, and what someone alluded to up above with Maggie Grace? I wish I knew nothing about casting and actors and contracts and how much it costs to have someone even for an episode. So that I didn't notice that, and I think this is right, Charlie and Boone and Juliet are only in the first episode so they don't have to pay them for the second. Claire is only in the second for similar reasons. You know, why is Juliet's body covered with a blanket in episode 2, surrrreee it has something to do with burying her, but also to do with the fact that, in not showing her face, they don't have to pay Elizabeth Mitchell, they can use a stand-in. And I know Juliet was not going to make it because Mitchell is already on another (albiet, soon to be cancelled possibly already cancelled) show. You know, Boone explaining Shannon's absence just lands with a clunk because we all know it's cause they couldn't get Grace.

Anyway, all I'm saying is, I avert my eyes when the guest star names show up in the beginning because then the Claire reveal is spoiled by Emilie's name, etc. etc.

Gripe gripe gripe. I need a nap.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 5:47 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> Yes, I agree with you. I just don't want answers at the expense of organic storytelling, and - as you say - there simply isn't enough time left to give us all those answers. Perhaps - if they pull this off in a satisfying manner - there will be time afterward for ancillary source books and interviews that give us some of those creator-approved answers that are less tied to the primary story that is left to tell.

I'm taking it almost as a given now that "Adam & Eve" were Bernard and Rose.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 5:50 PM

Jelinas
Glad you like it! I must caution you though, I've been a fan of this show since the git-go and every single time I think I've got it figured out, it takes a left turn and it turns out I was simply spitting into the wind. I almost hope I'm NOT right with my guesses so that I can legitimately be as surprised as the rest of the audience. So far, this has generally been the case. :)

DarthCorleone
I don't claim to have thought through all the implications of my theory, but it could be that you're right. I can't remember the original reason why Hurley picked those numbers for the lottery ticket he bought, so I dunno if it was dumb luck or "island intervention." I guess I was assuming dumb luck followed afterwards by "island intervention" plaguing his life with disaster as a result of using The Numbers for monetary gain.

Also, if the island never existed, somehow the main characters on the present day island timeline would have to jump backwards in time again and somehow destroy/sink the island before it had a chance to affect all their lives so adversely (stuff that happened prior to the plane going down.) Right? I dunno. I like thinking/discussing all this possible scenario stuff but trying to keep the show's time travel rules straight in my head while guessing what they're up to this season is wrinkling my brain.

Posted by: Roaddog at February 3, 2010 5:53 PM

Oh, bully, stardust, are you on the facebook cannonball read group? We can meet there to discuss and conject-yure.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 3, 2010 6:05 PM

Roaddog >> Yeah, I agree. The time-travel logic is going to be tough to reconcile with any theory we formulate.

Here's the story with the numbers, per the season one episode (and the Lost wiki). This origin was post-1977:

Hurley visits the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute, where he asked to see someone named Leonard. Leonard is a former U.S. Naval officer Hurley met while both were patients at SRMHI. Leonard keeps repeating the numbers over and over, and when Hurley tells him he used these numbers to win the lottery, Leonard becomes hysterical, screaming Hurley had "opened the box" and he must get away from those numbers or it "won't stop." As the workers in the institute grab Leonard and drag him out of the room, he tells Hurley that he heard the numbers from Sam Toomey, who had heard them in Kalgoorlie, Australia.

In Australia, Hurley is told by Toomey's wife, Martha, that Leonard and Sam Toomey had heard the Numbers "about 16 years ago" repeatedly through a looping radio broadcast while they were stationed at a listening post to monitor the Pacific. Just like Hurley, Sam used the Numbers, and met with similar bad luck. As a result, Sam likewise came to believe the Numbers were cursed, and eventually shot himself. Martha confidently says that she believes the Numbers are not cursed.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 6:09 PM

Wandering Parakeet: that makes perfect sense, too. I had completely forgotten about Keamy. So maybe MIB/Smokey was just fooling Ben into thinking he was in control. Hmmm. I have to factor that into my half-assed theory...

Posted by: figgy at February 3, 2010 6:22 PM

So he is just Smokie. And Smokie was somehow trapped on the island because of the more powerful?, aligned with some set of rules, island immortal Jacob. Now he's dead, and it's unhinging since we all thought he and the island were irrevocable. Now I am unsure as to whether the Island is a sentient entity at all. It's also possible that Jacob was a prisoner there too, it's just that whatever put him there knew he wouldn't let Smokie off the island even if the "rules" were broken. Whatever the case, the island is the site of a parallel divergence in the space-time continuum.

Crazy.

Looking forward to what happens next. Great recap as always, DC.

Posted by: Jackseppelin at February 3, 2010 6:53 PM

The Nemesis is an alien. Calling it now.

Posted by: Bendiagram at February 3, 2010 8:07 PM

I gave up on Lost at the end of Season 2. It was just getting absurdly obvious how hard the writers were struggling to stretch the material out far beyond its initial scope.

Reading this, I believe I made the right choice. Psychic powers? Time travel? That stupid smoke monster? So much hand-waving.

Posted by: Ed at February 3, 2010 8:18 PM

There are a TON of theories attempting to explain why Richard doesn't age, but here's my favorite:

Richard is the Egyptian god Ra. The support for this theory? A)His smoky-lined eyes and B)His initials are RA.

Man I love this show, and all of its crazy, crackpot theory fans!

Posted by: MelBivDevoe at February 3, 2010 8:21 PM

Going back to the Pop-Up Desmond:
I'm rewatching it now, and Rose and Bernard are awake when Jack is talking to Desmond, but later, they seem to not know Jack was talking to anyone because "they were asleep". Proof that Jack hallucinated, or bad editing?

Posted by: Patty O'Green at February 3, 2010 9:06 PM

Darth, no way am I buying an hallucination. It just doesn't fit for me. Desmond was either coincidentally on the flight (highly unlikely and nonsensical) or he warped in to wake up Jack's subconscious (what I find most likely). We'll have to disagree on this one.

Meanwhile, I can't let go of this thought in my head that the alternate timeline will result in the "fake"(not?) crash at the bottom of the ocean. I haven't much of anything to base it on, but I can't shake that feeling.

Other than that, I haven't any specific theories. I just believe that pertinent characters are going to have to make choices, and their choices will affect not only their own lives (and the lives of all the extraneous characters), but also the whole good/evil struggle between Jacob and the MIB.

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 9:19 PM

FROGURT!!

Love this show. Great to have it back. Hoping for some tailies to show up. I'm betting we'll see Libby but not Anna or Eko.

I'm not sure we should be calling the Enemy evil. It would be too easy. Like Ben, Widmore, and every nearly every other jerk on the show, we'll learn he's only MOSTLY evil. There's a big difference between mostly evil and all evil. Mostly evil is slightly good.

And thank you so much Dan for picking up the recap duties again. There is no one better.

Posted by: ed newman at February 3, 2010 9:23 PM

Patty >> I don't know. Could be either. Could be that Bernard and Rose were so enraptured by each other at that moment that they didn't notice Desmond.


Cindy >> The reason that I might guess he's not a hallucination is that he's a Desmond we haven't seen before. He very much seems to be of this alternate universe. If Jack were having some vision of his alternate reality, wouldn't it be of a figure that's actually from his alternate reality? Or would his brain attempt to compensate by making Desmond more at home in this different reality?

As I said, the reason I'm reluctant to buy the time-jumping theory is that we haven't seen Desmond do that before in this way. All his time-skipping events (with the exception of leaps that happened on the island as it leaped) were strictly his consciousness - never his body. Hence, it would be unprecedented. Or am I wrong about that?

On top of that, why would this Desmond who hasn't met Jack before and has never been to the island be leaping through time and space?

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 9:45 PM

Also, "highly unlikely and nonsensical" more or less describes all the coincidental run-ins that this show has in its history: Boone and Sawyer at the police station, Sawyer and Christian at the bar, Kate and Sawyer's girlfriend, Sayid and Kate's dad, etc. I've always just taken it at as some sort of motif about interconnectedness.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 9:53 PM

Darth, I see Desmond as the course corrector. I think he's on the plane to get Jack's brain headed in the right direction. Now when you say "never his body", that is our assumption, I'd agree. Who is to say that Desmond's "body" was on the plane this time? We saw him interjected into that time and space, just as we saw Desmond at Oxford for instance. Us not seeing Desmond's body elsewhere doesn't necessarily negate the possibility of his time travel. He was able to interact with Penny and Faraday in time travel, so why not Jack?

While meetings of other Losties indeed seem coincidental, I really believe Desmond's appearance is more important.

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 10:11 PM

I'm sitting here thinking, and I just got a bad feeling. (apparently, I've got all day too)

I had forgotten about "Cerberus" and how Ben referred to the Monster as the Island's defense mechanism. So there's this big moment where Ben realizes that the Monster is not an "It," but a "Who." During his entire stay on the island (30 years or more), he's been convinced that the monster is some kind of "thing." I don't remember for sure, but I think he said he doesn't know and doesn't care what the monster is, but he seems to not think of it as a person. He doesn't act like it's intelligent. There's that whole rigamarole with Ben going down into his basement to "summon the monster." They keep it out of their compound with a sonic fence, as if it were some kind of beast. Cerberus is a dog, etc.

Then they did that thing last season where Locke would disappear and then the monster would show up (and vice versa), so all us clever folks would slowly figure out that Locke and the monster are the same entity. I don't know if they really showed us yet that Ben has worked out the whole thing in his head: If the monster is Locke, maybe the monster can be other people, and Alex was probably the monster as well. He doesn't seem freaked out enough yet.

So far, the big reveal is the confirmation of our suspicions that Locke is the monster when he says to Ben, "I'm sorry you had to see me like that." Everybody goes "Ahah! I knew it!," right? See where I'm going? It makes the most sense (which is what worries me), and gives an explanation for the various apparitions. Nemesis has been on the island since the beginning of time (or whatever) and he sometimes turns into a big flying smoke cloud filled with flashes of light that can pick people up and throw them around, read their thoughts, and make a slideshow appear inside the smoke.

But what if Nemesis/Locke is lying (about this too)? What if Locke and the monster aren't the same creature? What if Locke just wants Ben to think he's the monster (and the writers want us to think he's the monster), but he's really not? Why does Locke still have to run away before the monster appears -- why not just have him transform or whatever? (maybe because they don't have the budget, but they're already animating the smoke)

Here's the thing: I'm still bothered by the technological sounds that precede the monster's appearance. It's either some kind of machine or some kind of supernatural creature right? So, is Nemesis a space robot? or a fallen angel? Can't really be both (well, I hope not anyway). If the monster is a machine, then so is Nemesis. I don't think Nemesis is a machine. Of course, maybe the monster merely makes those noises because the writing staff thought it "sounded spooky," and they didn't work out an explanation for why the man-killing smoke amoeba ancient (?) island avenger sounds like a taxi-cab printer.

This is the kind of thing that makes me worry that the whole thing is a joke and people are overthinking it (guilty as hell), trying to assign logical explanations to stuff that won't/can't have an explanation because it's random non-sequitur (someone up there wrote Mad Lib) and the writers are just yanking our chains and have no intention of it all making sense in the end. That would suck. I dig the show, but I think I'm gonna get screwed.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 10:49 PM

I'm taking it almost as a given now that "Adam & Eve" were Bernard and Rose.
Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 3, 2010 5:50 PM

Darth, that's been my theory for some time.

OMG YOU GUYS. I was just thinking of Juliet and the statue and this: "I thought it was Sobek too, but the producers say it's Taweret (Goddess of childbirth and fertility) -- there's the Juliette, infertility story-line that still needs to be tied up." and realized that's it's entirely possible that Juliet was actually (which was my gut feeling at the time) going to tell Sawyer she was pregnant (which I thought originally in the episode where Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Juliet run into Bernard and Rose at the cabin, and Rose sees them and goes "Oh HELL no"; when the rest of them are walking away, Juliet lags behind a smidge and Bernard says to her "Are you sure you wouldn't like some tea?" and Juliet touches her stomach before saying no thanks and heading off), and that's what "It worked" refers to, meaning her work, her reason for being on the island in the first place.

It doesn't add anything to either of the timeline stories or lend credence to any of the hypotheses about them, but it would pretty neatly tie up that end (and, of course, devastate Sawyer a little bit more, again). I just had a little "ohmygod" moment (and possibly some goosebumps. Maybe I should get another hobby) and thought I'd share it with y'all.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 3, 2010 10:54 PM

Little Ben was healed while the water was clear - Jacob was in power. Loophole was that only one of Jacob's people could kill Jacob. Ben.

So Jacob making sure Sayid was taken to the temple to be healed just as the water turned dark - cos the Man in Black was in Power - means that Jacob wants Sayid to kill the Fake Locke/Smokey/Man In Black/whoever he is. Cos Sayid is the NEW loophole. Plus Sayid is a killer. It's what he does.

That's my theory.

Posted by: Nesspi at February 3, 2010 10:57 PM

I think that's a really sweet, sentimental thought, Avb.

Posted by: Cindy at February 3, 2010 11:22 PM

coveredinbees >> Physical manifestation of the wounds he just received in the alternate reality? I don't know what else it would be.

DarthCorleone

The LOST Stigmata?

Sorry, and no I don't have a life

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 11:22 PM

"and realized that's it's entirely possible that Juliet was actually (which was my gut feeling at the time) going to tell Sawyer she was pregnant . . . Juliet lags behind a smidge and Bernard says to her "Are you sure you wouldn't like some tea?" and Juliet touches her stomach before saying no thanks and heading off), and that's what "It worked" refers to, meaning her work, her reason for being on the island in the first place." Anna von Beaverpuppet

That's awesome. this is my favorite speculation out of this whole thread -- so sweet and wonderful. Might be right too, would dénouement a lot of stuff. If it wasn't so sad, I would be rooting for it, but pregnant then dead? that's super super dark. If it's true, they'll have to have Sawyer pluck her back out of the timestream so they can be together and raise little conman junior. That would be an Adam & Eve worth all this, wouldn't it? Jacob, son of a redeemed Sawyer?

nahh


Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 3, 2010 11:33 PM

Yes, Nesspi, I totally think you're on to something!

I rewatched the episode tonight. During the "Previously on Lost," they showed FakeLocke telling Ben that Ben would be the one to kill Jacob. And I got to thinking, why Ben? Maybe because he'd been healed by the pool, the same pool that has now healed Sayid. So they've both been chosen, and now imbued with some sort of essence? - and perhaps given the power to kill a god? I'm just making this up as I go.

Posted by: MelBivDevoe at February 3, 2010 11:35 PM

I think Richard Alpert is based on the "Wandering Jew" this is a legendary story of a Jew said to have taunted Jesus Crucified & punished by God to wander the world until Judgement Day.
Could explain Richard's agelessness, & Alpert *is* a Jewish name, isn't it?

There is also, of course the Richard Alpert ( now known as "baba Ram Dass") who was the colleague of Timothy Leary, back in the early 60s... that whole altered-reality-in-a-pill called LSD.

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. Curious that a character resembling Lennon is there among the Others...

Posted by: oskar at February 3, 2010 11:39 PM

I rewatched the episode tonight. During the "Previously on Lost," they showed FakeLocke telling Ben that Ben would be the one to kill Jacob. And I got to thinking, why Ben? Maybe because he'd been healed by the pool, the same pool that has now healed Sayid. So they've both been chosen, and now imbued with some sort of essence? - and perhaps given the power to kill a god? I'm just making this up as I go

Hmm I actually think Ben was the choice because he had pre-existing (*cough*daddy*cough*) issues with Jacob (J.J., PLEASE go to therapy for your daddy issues. I'm getting soooooo tired of it). However clever and manipulative Ben is, he was rather easily manipulated into killing Jacob, because he had so much pent up rage and feelings of abandonment and it really didn't take much nudging for him to let it on out.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 4, 2010 12:13 AM

Patty, in regards to Rose and Bernard, I think they meant that while they were awake when he sat down, they fell asleep at some point and didn't see what happened to him.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 4, 2010 12:14 AM

And, KK, dollface, if you scroll up this thread of one thousand posts or however many, I think you'll find I posted about half, so, noooooooo need to apologize for a perceived lack of life. I think I get to wear that crown today.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 4, 2010 12:18 AM

wow, just spent 40 minutes reading these comments, and now i'm ready to ramble:

I started rewatching season 2 today after having my mind 'splode last night. i had completely forgotten about the scene where jack is running like a loon up and down the stadium stairs and sprains his ankle trying to race desmond who is training for his trip around the world. desmond starts in with all his cute and calls jack "brother" ::swoon:: and asks jack why he's punishing himself running the stairs.

jack tells desmond he made a promise to sarah (that he'd fix her) that he couldn't keep. cut to scene with jack and sarah... jack goes all party of five on sarah (remember when she was in that show ed? i loved that show.) "i'm sorry, i couldn't fix you!" sarah is all "WTF!" i can wiggle my toes, bitch!" he told desmond it would take a miracle to save her. he created that miracle. he's a healer. jacob made him a healer when he gave him the appollo bar? yes? maybe? holy crap.

i ramble for two reasons:

1) jack and desmond had met before (off island) and

2) i really wonder if jack has some sort of healing powers beyond just being a doctor--powers that were bestowed upon him by jacob?

maybe, in a sense, jack is jacob and locke is the MIB, or, at least, jack is being manipulated by jacob and locke is being manipulated by MIB.

as in (jumping off of what coveredinbees said upthread about MIB manipulating the plot to get locke to do his bidding), maybe jacob is engaged in some shenanigans to force jack into a healer role?

jack and locke have always been polar opposites. when locke was a man of faith, jack was a man of science. then we find out that locke lost his faith (tried to kill himself) and jack is the one running around talking about destiny now.

"nothing is irreversible."

oh good lord, this show make my head spin.

Posted by: stopthemadness at February 4, 2010 12:25 AM

Just so's we can leave the comments on this review at a cool two-hundo, and so I can prove that there are some people out there MORE maniacle [sic] than I am about Lost, I present to you this screen capture from last night's episode that someone uploaded. WHO HAS TIME TO SEARCH FOR THIS CR@P? But it's pretty cool. From the unda-da-sea, Atlantis-like CGI island shot, DHARMASHARK! http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/befb5329946f47c8b3473c2bc9033c23

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 4, 2010 2:04 AM

Nesspi >> I really like that theory. Since it's an alternative to the "Sayid is now Jacob" theory that many people are backing (seeing as Ben still remained fundamentally who he is in Jacob-killer mode), it seems that it requires one of two things: 1) the Others lied that Sayid was dead, or 2) the Others were wrong that Sayid was dead. 2) doesn't seem likely, given that they're the experts on the healing pool. 1) seems possible.

anna >> I like that theory, too. And given the ridiculously high level of pathos in that bonus Juliet death scene, it was actually the first thing that occurred to me as the important thing that Juliet had to tell Sawyer. A couple problems with it, though: 1) In 1977, the infertility problem didn't exist yet. 2) The problem that needed solving wasn't pregnancy itself; it was surviving into the third trimester. Given those two things, Juliet shouldn't be able to tell based on a pregnancy by Sawyer if her efforts had "worked."

coveredinbees >> I did notice the Dharmashark on the first viewing. Go me.

Cindy >> I wasn't fully understanding your theory about what Desmond was then. If you're saying that Desmond's body wasn't actually on the plane, then isn't that the same thing as a hallucination? We can make the distinction between a vision generated purely by Jack's brain versus an image projected by the island, but either way if Desmond's body isn't there, Jack is the only one who is seeing him, right?

I'm presuming all of his interactions with Penny and Faraday were different. Desmond's consciousness was taking advantage of knowledge he had from different time periods, but that was actually Desmond's body at Oxford and that was actually Desmond's body in Penny's bed.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 2:53 AM

Go you! And I forgot other people have fancy TVs, or even, you know, TVs and don't hafta watch stuff on Hulu in grainy, small resolution como yo.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 4, 2010 3:06 AM

How did MIB know what Locke's final thoughts were? This took place far off the island. He mention to Jacob at the end of last season that it's always the same and everything before the end is just progress (reminds me of Ishmael and Rand in the Wheel of Time)

Who is to say that Desmond can't be jumping through reality as well? I don't know what his purpose on the plane was, but I doubt it was thrown in for a fun coincidence.

Posted by: Lazy at February 4, 2010 5:16 AM

Couldn't finish until yesterday so late to the discussion. I thought it was absolutely fantastic. I love the new "transition" sound effect, sounds more mechanical and ominous for some reason. The sound effects when Kate is first shown in the tree was freaking spectacular in surround sound. I thought my receiver was blown to be honest. I liked that Jack is so completely beaten down he doesn't even put up a fight when Hurley tells them they have to go to the temple.

And seeing Locke and Jack shake hands at the airport gave me a chill. This season premiere was so damn satisfying and really drove home why I love this show, and the haters don't get it. Yes it's complicated, yes it's convoluted, but the characters grow and change and don't just flip stances because the script needs them to at a given moment.

My expectation for the season was high before, but if anything the premiere has me more excited now. I just wish they would get better CGI, the submerged island shot and the smoke monster attack were not the greatest.

Posted by: TylerDFC at February 4, 2010 8:24 AM

Nesspi, that theory is hot. I want to make out with it. (Though Darth, don't forget that Jack tried to resuscitate Sayid; and, he also stated that Sayid was dead.)

1) In 1977, the infertility problem didn't exist yet. 2) The problem that needed solving wasn't pregnancy itself; it was surviving into the third trimester.

Following all the way through has always been my biggest problem, Darth. I might argue with your first point that she was from the problem time period in the first place (though she'd have no reason/way to continue the work), but I cannot argue with your second point. Damn!

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 4, 2010 8:48 AM

@damitjanet
"And, while nobody does sadsackface like Jack, nobody does shityourpantsohmygodwhatthefuckisgoingonface like Ben. "

LOLOL!


@coveredinbees

'You can't change the future (unless you're Scott Bakula). "
nice one!

score another for @damitjanet
...all in vincent's mind...


someone thought guyliner was lock'd to the island.. nope.. i distinctly remb him stateside when they recruited/drugged juliette. earlier, when he came to locke as a kid... he could come/go for some periods of 'time'.

annabeaverpuppet - good catch on the tummypat. the 'it worked'... could mean either or both..
island fertility issues gone and/or bomb established alternate timeline/got them back to same time as capt' frank/sun/ben..

maybe while in the shades... btwn life/death.. juliette could intuit something..
but, i saw no evidence of same w/sayid.

i gotta scream !continuity! though..
on ben's bloody shirt...
in the beach-foot temple post jacob slashing.. bloody.. walks up to gang on beach w/arms crossed obviously covering the blood.. 'jacob's fine'... on the beach aftr being shoved by guyliner into the sand to view locke-bod.. no blood.... tsk tsk..

can't figure the desmond sighting... usually when he timetrips/rips.. he's agitated, disoriented.. he was clearly cool/calm/collected yappin w/jacko.

i'm wonderin when we get ta see penny/kiddo? as penn is his constant.

Posted by: kikz at February 4, 2010 9:27 AM

stopthemadness, most of us remember Jack and Desmond's previous meeting. I have always questioned whether that was a time-traveling Desmond as well.

Darth, now you're playing semantics. A time-traveling being and an hallucination are not the same. When Desmond time-traveled to Oxford, he was clearly seen by more than one person and was not seen only in one other person's mind. If you're asking me what happens to a person's physical body when he/she is time traveling, I'll have to research. But Doctor Who isn't an halluciantion, correct? For that matter, in a split timeline where some of the Losties are both on the plane and on the island, how does that work with the physical body? We're getting beyond my ken here.

I could be completely wrong of course - Desmond could still be on that plane. But when it comes to Desmond, I always assume that extra mile.

Posted by: Cindy at February 4, 2010 9:46 AM

Cindy >> It would be much easier if we could just discuss this in-person. :- ) I was just bringing up the semantics of it to make sure we were talking about the same thing. My observation was that the time-traveling that Desmond would have been doing on that plane was completely different from the time-traveling that he did in Oxford, and it's different from any of the transport across time and space that we have seen thus far in the series, whether that be the island's donkey-wheel-skipping / ejection of its user or the 1977 jumps. (I'm not ready to say that our split realities can be described as jumping through time and space, as currently none of the characters are aware of their other selves in the alternate reality.)

In Oxford, Desmond's body already existed in that time in the course of his normal life. Then his thoughts from the future leaped into that body and dictated Desmond-body's actions in that time and place. Then the consciousness of future events left his body. His body, however, remained in Oxford and went about its business. (Or maybe that consciousness left after he left Oxford - I don't recall.)

On the plane - if you're saying that Desmond's physical body actually appeared on the plane and then disappeared from the plane (akin to Doctor Who popping in on the TARDIS and then leaving), this is different from the time-traveling that Desmond or any character on the show had done before. Additionally, if that is what happened, was Desmond aware of it? Why would that be happening if Desmond never went to the island in the LAX reality? Did he feign ignorance of Jack?

Finally, yes, at Oxford he was clearly seen by everyone. On that plane - we don't know if he was. We are led to believe that he might not have been, and that's the whole reason I still think he could have been Jack's vision.

Sorry - I think I'm not making my point well. It's basically just this: if Desmond was time-traveling to the plane and then disappeared, that is a completely new supernatural action that we are seeing that will need its own explanation, which, granted, might never be given to us.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 11:46 AM

Anna >> You're right about Jack's declaration that Sayid was dead. I might speculate, though, that the physical appearance of death was a necessary step in whatever transformation Sayid has undergone. The Others might have been expecting it as part of what would happen. Hopefully this is something that will be answered in the next episode, but if it's Jacob that is in Sayid's body, he could pretend to be Sayid for a while. Deception wouldn't seem to be Jacob's style, though.

lazy >> I had that question too about MIB's knowing Locke's final thoughts. I figured either MIB was saying that as an educated guess to further manipulate Ben, or in copying Locke's form MIB magically inherited some part of his consciousness. That second thing opens up a whole can of worms (e.g., did MIB need to physically access Locke's corpse to acquire the rest of his thoughts?), but it's no bigger a can of worms than anything else on this show.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 11:54 AM

So what you're saying is I have to wait ALL THE WAY UNTIL NEXT TUESDAY?! OR MAYBE LONGER!?

DAMMIT. I need to know NOW. :)

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 4, 2010 12:09 PM

And, KK, dollface, if you scroll up this thread of one thousand posts or however many, I think you'll find I posted about half, so, noooooooo need to apologize for a perceived lack of life. I think I get to wear that crown today. coveredinbees

Thanks for the dollface, how did you know I'm so pretty? Although I must say that's a big sexy brain you're flaunting all over the place -- right back atcha.

As for the crown (but not the lack of life part),

I hereby nominate coveredinbees for the honorable position of (benevolent) Monarch of LOST comentaries.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 4, 2010 12:51 PM

I assumed that the MIB knew the thoughts etc. of the body he took over. This would fit in with the information he had when appearing to the assorted islanders in assorted forms (Christian, insane asylum guy etc.) in previous seasons.

I can be and most likely am wrong.

Posted by: Mrs Julian (because Supercomfypampertimefloatythrone is too long to type) at February 4, 2010 1:03 PM

Posting again because the page is strangely skewed
and everyone is entitled to my opinion.
I assumed that the MIB knew the thoughts etc. of the body he took over.
This would fit in with the information he had when appearing to the
assorted islanders in assorted forms (Christian, insane asylum
guy etc.) in previous seasons.

I can be and most likely am wrong.

Posted by: Mrs Julian (because Supercomfypampertimefloatythrone is too long to type) at February 4, 2010 1:05 PM

I have to really think about the things you've written (and I like that) Darth before I respond. I'll be back!

Posted by: Cindy at February 4, 2010 1:19 PM


and so, Once more unto the breach, dear friends?

The Nesspi Theorem:

Little Ben was healed while the water was clear - Jacob was in power.
Loophole was that only one of Jacob's people could kill Jacob. Ben.
So Jacob making sure Sayid was taken to the temple to be healed just as the water turned dark - cos the Man in Black was in Power - means that Jacob wants Sayid to kill the Fake Locke/Smokey/Man In Black/whoever he is. Cos Sayid is the NEW loophole. Plus Sayid is a killer. It's what he does.
Nesspi

Yes, Nesspi, I totally think you're on to something!
I rewatched the episode tonight. During the "Previously on Lost," they showed FakeLocke telling Ben that Ben would be the one to kill Jacob. And I got to thinking, why Ben? Maybe because he'd been healed by the pool, the same pool that has now healed Sayid. So they've both been chosen, and now imbued with some sort of essence? - and perhaps given the power to kill a god? I'm just making this up as I go.
MelBivDevoe

I agree with the basic premise here 100%. Sayid is going to be doing something pivotal. The doubling of Ben v Sayid is very interesting, both having been dipped (dare we say baptized?) in the sacred pool, one in (presumably) clear, and therefore good (?) water, the second in sullied or "dark" waters, and therefore bad or evil (unholy?) water.

MelBivDevoe suggests that they have been "imbued" with something. This may be where the writers are going. I dismissed this idea at first because it is such a direct quote from the HBO show Carnivàle. For those of you who didn't watch Carnivàle (not many did, I don't think it was very popular, but I loved it), there were two champions (good v evil), who each wielded an "anointed" weapon. The good champion was a supernatural healer (like Jacob, and now according to some, possibly Jack). The anointing of the weapons was a huge plot point that stretched over several episodes. Anointing the weapons and imbuing the two champions seem like two ideas cut from the same cloth (no Jacob related pun intended), which is why I figured they weren't going there, but maybe this is just different enough that, yes, they are going there.


furthermore, DarthCorleone writes:
Nesspi >> I really like that theory. Since it's an alternative to the "Sayid is now Jacob" theory that many people are backing (seeing as Ben still remained fundamentally who he is in Jacob-killer mode), it seems that it requires one of two things: 1) the Others lied that Sayid was dead, or 2) the Others were wrong that Sayid was dead. 2) doesn't seem likely, given that they're the experts on the healing pool. 1) seems possible.

1. I don't think Sayid is now Jacob. -- mostly because it's just too obvious and the LOST writers aren't know for obvious.

2. I think you're a little bit wrong Darth, you say that the others lied or were wrong about Sayid's death. I'm still backing the idea that Sayid was dead, and his is a true resurrection rather than a false resurrection, as with Locke/Nemesis. (BTW there seem to be quite a few people who think the real Locke is coming back: What lies in the shadow of the statue?) The Sanada character seemed like he knew what he was doing -- everything we've seen so far invests in the idea that he is (yes, stereotypically) a nearly omnipotently wise and powerful Shaolin warrior / samurai. The Sanada character seemed pretty sure that Sayid was big D dead. They even seemed to show Sayid's "death throes." Jack, the wizard magical surgeon also said Sayid's clock no ticky.

Don't forget there is an Egyptian resurrection god as well. I'm not sure about his relationship with Taweret, concubine of Set, but he certainly didn't get along with Set himself.


So, I agree with Nesspi that Sayid is the new champion. I'm just not sure what his job will be. I'm not even sure that Nemesis can be killed. Might suck for Sayid, but maybe he is Nemesis's new jailor, taking over for Jacob? Having already died, he has become immortal (or ageless) as Jacob once was, and now has to watch over Nemesis for all eternity (this would mean Nemesis's "loophole" actually benefits Jacob, and not Nemesis -- which would explain why the all-knowing weaver of fate let Nemesis's plot go forward -- "Why didn't he fight back"? whines Ben). This would be a fitting atonement for Sayid's many sins.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 4, 2010 1:45 PM

OK, so first - I don't get why you would think that the one person we know to be able to time travel on his own is instead an hallucination?

Second - Why would the time travel on the plane (if indeed it is tt) be different than what we've seen before? I believe last we saw Desmond, he was in a hospital recovering from being shot. If he is tt, his other self is still presumably off with Penny and his son (or anywhere really).

Now I'm thinking about Desmond and Eloise Hawking - her explanations of whatever happened happened and course correction. I don't believe the crash could truly be undone. Now clearly something wonky has happened, because the timeline is split. But perhaps that's what Desmond is there for - to help Jack remember something, so Jack will make a choice to set things back on course. Now if you say, what if the course correction is that the plane crash was never supposed to happen? I say - I can't agree. We didn't go through this whole story of a plane crash and everything that followed just to undo it all. That seems too pointless.

And as an aside, because Jack and Desmond did meet before, on those steps - could not Desmond be Jack's constant?

Posted by: Cindy at February 4, 2010 2:12 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> You make good points. I was assuming that the Others who were at the pool knew all the possible outcomes, but this might be something new to them. However, there's still something fishy to me about the critical importance that Jacob put upon keeping Sayid alive (in whatever sense). And even if "Sayid" is the new champion or jailer or whatever he is, this might not be the Sayid we knew, thus making resurrection not technically the case. I guess my opinion is pending. Given that Richard is the one that said "dead is dead" and seeing as how he has been on the island a long while, I'd be interested to see his reaction to Sayid's "rebirth." We should get answers to this pretty quick, as I don't think they could possibly shine it on for more than a couple episodes.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 3:05 PM

cindy i had only gotten halfway through that particular episode in season 2... my (admittedly drunken) ramblings were more re-rememberings on my part. after i finished the episode i went back and re-read my comment and was like

"duhvs, that was a dumbass comment."

i watched 4 more episodes last night, keeping in mind the theories you fine people have been espousing and needless to say my brain is 'splodin' on an hourly basis. given that i'm on med leave from work, i'm hoping to get through the rest of season 2 today. i haven't rewatched the show since it aired (except season 1 and that was years ago) and since my brain is a bit broken so i forget things. please pardon my dumbheadedness.

it really is amazing to me that the writers seemed to have an idea of exactly where the show was going from the get go, save a couple glaring examples like wtf happened to claire?

this thread is fantastic.

Posted by: stopthemadness at February 4, 2010 3:14 PM

Oooh I like the sound of "the Nesspi theorem". Addressing DarthCorleone's point's re: the Others either being wrong or lying about Sayid being dead...

...I think maybe the idea of what 'dead' means to the Others as opposed to everyone else might come into play. Hence FINALLY Miles is important, and HURLEY is super-important. Miles was obviously unsettled for some reason but whether it is because he COULDN'T communicate with the body, or because he COULD (and didn't like what he was being told) is unclear.

Plus you have Richard saying "I have never seen the Island bring anyone back from the dead" and Ben's famous line "Dead is dead". I think these are important.

Except it occurs to me that yeah, maybe they are important because Sayid will be the exception to the rule. We did, after all get an extremely unsubtle Christ-like pose as he was pulled out of the water.

Anyway. The one thing I stand by is that I don't think that Sayid has become Jacob. I think if you imagine Lost as a chess game, Sayid is now the opposing piece to whatever Ben is.

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 3:20 PM

Cindy >> Desmond is the one person we've seen time-traveling on his own, yes, but he has never actually transported his body - only his consciousness to different points within his own life. Thus, physically leaping on and off the plane is unprecedented. That's why it would be different.

For the purposes of shorthand, I'm going to refer to everything with either an "Island" prefix or an "LAX" prefix, thus referring to the two different realities we have now (assuming you agree that we are two dealing with two different realities/universes).

I agree Island-Desmond is in the other universe recovering in a hospital bed under the care of Penny, while Island-Jack, Island-Ben, Island-Sayid, Island-Kate, etc. are all dealing with the craziness of the temple, MIB, etc. If Island-Desmond is still experiencing his temporal deja vu, could his mind leap across universes into LAX-Desmond's body? Maybe. But that body still has to be wherever it is to hold that consciousness.

LAX-Desmond? I don't know what's he up to. But he never went to the LAX-island, because it's at the bottom of the ocean. I don't know if he still meets LAX-Penny. He never pushed the button, because it was never manufactured. And consequently he never went through the purple sky incident that would give him his time-traveling ability. He might be on LAX-Oceanic 815 as a coincidence, but the only person that we know for sure that saw him was LAX-Jack.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 3:21 PM

KK, you're so sweet, but can monarchs be nominated?!

People keep talking about Smokey/MIB taking over bodies, but I've always thought of it as APPEARING like a dead person. Someone upthread mentioned bodies going missing. Other than Christian in this episode, is that true? Did Christian's body disappear from the fusilage or elsewhere in the wreckage. Because Locke's body is not gone, it's been in that box and has been trucked all over the island, but it's not like an invasion of the body snatchers thing. . right? Maybe the body has to be ON the island in order for the MIB to assume the shape. Which is why they had to bring Locke back to the island. . .I dunno, which dead people have we seen?

That's why this whole Jacob taking over Sayid's body doesn't sit quite right with me. Notwithstanding my earlier point about Jacob not killing things with his thighs. And if we get non-lethal Sayids thighs this season, I'm gonna be bummed.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 4, 2010 3:26 PM

@DC Minor teeny tiny stupid niggling question that was bugging me from upthread about Hurley winning the lottery. If the button was never manufactured, then the numbers were never important, then they were never broadcast, then they never got into that poor crazy guy's head then Hurley never heard them then he never used them to play the lottery. Right?! Are we to assume he won a different day with different numbers? Is this just more of that inevitability we've been talking about. Hurley would win the lottery, inevitably, even if not quite in the same way. . .

Stupid minutia, I know.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 4, 2010 3:32 PM

Oh also, and this is just because I am a huge Ben fangirl and so I reeeeally want him to be redeemed but:

Ben lies in the shadow of the statue. As in tells lies. Like, repeatedly.

So I hope that means that he saves them all, even though I won't be holding my breath on that.

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 3:40 PM

Cindy >> Also, I'm assuming that in fact we did just go through five seasons of story only to undo the crash, but it was only undone in the LAX-reality/universe. What would seem more pointless to me is being forced to redo the crash having gone to all that trouble, but that might be exactly what has to happen. Maybe two universes like these aren't allowed to exist for whatever reason, and what Island-Jack did has somehow violated Island-Ellie's rules of course correction.

I don't really understand what you mean by that last statement. LAX-Jack (and Island-Jack, for that matter) doesn't need a "constant" as we have seen the term defined. He hasn't done any time-traveling. I'm interpreting what has happened as two completely separate realities, and LAX-Jack and Island-Jack are two completely separate entities. Clues (Jack's bruise, Juliet's ghost's knowledge) indicate that the universes are tangibly linked, and maybe if LAX-Jack realizes that he is some sort of splinter offshoot of another universe, he will need a constant to keep from going mad. But until LAX-Jack's consciousness begins to leap back and forth between different points in time and space as Island-Desmond's did, he should be o.k., right?

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 3:42 PM

coveredinbees >> Exactly. LAX-Hurley has still won the lottery, but if the island was put at the bottom of the ocean in LAX-1977, it would be impossible for LAX-Hurley to have gotten the numbers in the same way that Island-Hurley did. Did LAX-Hurley play the same numbers and win at the same time? Was he fated? Was it an immense coincidence? Could the existence of alternate universes imply some sort of subconscious awareness that enabled Island-Hurley's playing of the lottery to seep across time and space into LAX-Hurley's brain and inspire him to play the lottery as well at the same moment with the same numbers? I don't know.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 3:48 PM

Damn. You are all smarter than me.

Hate that I have to work and can't concentrate on all the great theories. But, *sunshine breaks thru*

THE BOSS IS OFF TOMORROW!! Which means I can spend the day pondering...

Posted by: dammitjanet at February 4, 2010 3:49 PM

We did, after all get an extremely unsubtle Christ-like pose as he was pulled out of the water.

YES! I actually remarked to the pseudo-Mr. as they were carrying him up the steps, "Prepare for the resurrection."

You guys are all like hot-smart.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 4, 2010 4:22 PM

Ok, so we are still doing this? (goody)

People keep talking about Smokey/MIB taking over bodies, but I've always thought of it as APPEARING like a dead person. CiB

Bingo -- Nemesis didn't take over Locke's body -- that body is lying on the beach. Ergo, Jacob prob didn't take over Sayid's body either (amend this to The Nesspi Theorem).

Maybe the body has to be ON the island in order for the MIB to assume the shape. CiB

Nope. There are many folks in this camp (body must be on the island). I think the popularity of this idea is because there is such an emphasis on the two cadavers. However, I think that the body is unnecessary -- most incontrovertible evidence for me is Kate's Black Horse. The Black Horse is usually in the list of Island Apparitions, and I don't think the horse corpse (couldn't resist) is not on the island. I've always found the Black Horse (is it a stallion?) the most interesting of the Apparitions because it stands out: not human, more poetic, etc. On the other hand, perhaps Nemesis has taken animal forms previously and we just don't know it. Vincent would be a really good one -- awesome surveillance potential (what's his name? Sirius Black?), and Vincent does seem to come and go at strange intervals, perhaps Vincent never survived the crash? There could be any number of animal interactions -- some people think that the medusa spiders were part of the monster.

You could explain it all away: The Black Horse was just a dream, Hurley's visitors were actual dead people, and so on, but I like the Black Horse for Nemesis -- goes with Man in Black don't it?

The other can of worms is: Does the impersonated personage have to be dead? If not, the writers could ret-con any scene or action they want to and just say it was Nemesis being tricksy.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 4, 2010 5:51 PM


And . . .

Minor teeny tiny stupid niggling question that was bugging me from upthread about Hurley winning the lottery.CiB

LAX-Hurley has still won the lottery, but if the island was put at the bottom of the ocean in LAX-1977, it would be impossible for LAX-Hurley to have gotten the numbers in the same way that Island-Hurley did.DC

The numbers are independent of the hatch, the island, and possibly Jacob. The numbers are the Valenzetti Equation, and they mean the End of the World, which might actually be what Jacob and Nemesis are fighting over. Hurley could have gotten the numbers some other way, in fact if he was watching the show, nearly everything in the universe comes in multiples of these numbers -- how could he not run into them?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 4, 2010 5:58 PM


Desmond on Jack's plane?

They really did seem to be pushing the idea that he disappeared. What that means, I don't know. I always thought Desmond was going to be some kind of huge player in the resolution.

We don't really know what happened to Desmond when the energy pocket imploded. He seems to be skipping through time in his own body and everything, but perhaps this only because of the limits of a linear narrative. Maybe Desmond actually experiences all the moments of his life simultaneously.

Maybe he lives in all nows. Maybe he got blown outside the time/space continuum, and now exists independent of both time and space (time and space are the same thing, according to Einstein, and may not be isolated from each other). I never read Dark Tower, but the writers of Lost did, and they say they were influenced by it when they were working on the arc for the show (not to mention that at least one of them was in on the new Star Trek). From what I understand, the protagonist in Dark Tower has the ability to travel between parallel universes or something -- an idea that Michael Moorcock damn near beat to death in his fiction. Desmond has reminded me of those Moorcock heroes ever since the Swan went Blooey.

I don't think Desmond is done messing with LAX Jack -- he might be the messenger between the two parallel universes. Have to wait and see.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 4, 2010 6:11 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> Good thoughts. To add to the list of animal shapes that I think Smokey has assumed, I have long thought that boar that Sawyer went chasing after was one of them.

I didn't think the person need be dead, but assuming dead things is a good way not to get busted if the real person showed up. (And appearing as a "ghost" to certain people is bound to get a certain kind of desired reaction and/or exert a certain measure of influence.)

That's a good point about Jacob's not taking Sayid's body if the analogy to Smokey-Locke is correct. Going back to the Others and what they knew about the pool, though, if the analogy to Jacob-killer-Ben is precisely correct, then would Ben have undergone the same appearance of death when he was healed? If Richard had been there for that, then it would seem to contradict his "dead is dead" statement.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 6:13 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> Re: the numbers: I was just saying that the story of Island-Hurley receiving the number could not possibly be the same as LAX-Hurley's story, as the chain of events that brought it to him related to events on the island post-1977 that could not have occurred in the LAX universe. Certainly the numbers could still find their way to him in some other way in the LAX universe, but it wouldn't have been via that radio broadcast, the Australian, and his mental institute cohort.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 6:19 PM

New Idea:

Nemesis's loophole. We think the loophole is Ben killing Jacob, but this isn't really what Nemesis wants is it? He just wants to go home -- whatever the hell that means.

Just as an aside, loophole is such a dead metaphor, that for the longest time I didn't think of the actual vehicle of the metaphor itself. If Jacob is the weaver of fate, then loophole really isn't a metaphor at all, is it -- it's kinda literal.

Nemesis taking on the shapes of animals got me to thinking (don't take much), and then somebody (CiB again?) pointed out the Dharma Shark (that would be a cool name for a geek band, huh?) that I had missed, and the idea crossed my mind that the Dharma Shark is Nemesis. Which led me to a different question. So in all of this discussion, the question that I didn't see asked is:

Now that the island is at the bottom of the ocean (in LAX Jack's reality), where are Jacob and Nemesis?

Maybe the loophole wasn't killing Jacob at all? Maybe the loophole was conning Jack into detonating the Swan. Perhaps the energy pocket was Nemesis's prison or the power source for it or something. Perhaps sinking the island set Nemesis free (at least in one alternate reality) and this was the loophole?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 4, 2010 6:22 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> There is some traveling between universes by characters in The Dark Tower, although none of the characters really do so at will. There are special and/or dangerous portals/devices that make it possible for the characters to do so on a few occasions. I don't know how many of the parallel universe ideas they are using in Lost, but the thing that immediately jumped out at me as similar was the idea of a fractured mind. Throwing LAX-Desmond out of it, LAX-Jack's bruise indicates to me that The Incident is not done with him (or he's not done with the effects of The Incident). I just had the impression that Island-Desmond was out of the game once he opted to stay with Island-Penny. I could be wrong, of course.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 6:31 PM

People keep talking about Smokey/MIB taking over bodies, but I've always thought of it as APPEARING like a dead person. CiB

Bingo -- Nemesis didn't take over Locke's body -- that body is lying on the beach. Ergo, Jacob prob didn't take over Sayid's body either (amend this to The Nesspi Theorem).KK

Agree agree agree. I think someone else has maybe brought this up somewhere (?) but MIB/Smokey imitating people/thing's appearances could be the reason that the Dharma Initiative have obviously been instructed somewhere along the line that they have to bury the bodies of any 'Hostiles' they kill (to prevent the MIB from impersonating them as being still alive to unwitting Others ?)

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 6:40 PM

Kosmic Koyote >> Re: "loophole": That's an interesting theory that could be the case. My interpretation of the scene at the beginning of the season 5 finale was that the "loophole" in that conversation was directly referring to Smokey's desire to kill Jacob. I would need to rewatch the scene. Smokey's escape is evidently a consequence of Jacob's death, but I really felt like the loophole in the conversation directly referred to the potential murder.

As for where Jacob and Smokey are in the LAX reality: good question. Got me. Did Jacob still visit our heroes when they were kids in the LAX reality? If so, these paradoxes are making my brain hurt.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 6:44 PM

re: the numbers.

In the alternate timeline doesn't it seem like the numbers have changed? Just as there are several details that recall but are ultimately different to the original 815 (and how do we even know that this IS Flight 815 btw?) Jack isn't in row 23, I'm pretty sure there are heaps of details that point to the numbers having shifted back or forward one. Way smarter people are posting heaps on this all over the net, but anyway, my point is - Hurley could have won the lottery with any numbers. Maybe the alt universe thing is that you can't escape certain aspects of your destiny. Sort of what's gonna happen is gonna happen, regardless of what you try and do to change it - so Hurley, no matter what timeline, is always gonna win the lotto.

I haven't thought this out very far though. May be flawed!

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 6:47 PM

Nesspi >> could be the reason that the Dharma Initiative have obviously been instructed somewhere along the line that they have to bury the bodies of any 'Hostiles' they kill (to prevent the MIB from impersonating them as being still alive to unwitting Others ?)

That's another good thought. I am left wondering, though, which Others knew all about Smokey and how much they knew about him. Ben obviously knew next to nothing. These new folks we've met in the temple seem to know quite a bit.

How much does Richard Alpert know? I'm not sure; he was hoodwinked by Smokey-Locke, but I guess the mitigating circumstance of meeting that time-traveling Locke who had the so much foreknowledge could have blinded him to a deceptive shape-shifting.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 6:52 PM

the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Jacob is the evil one and MIB is actually the good guy

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 7:02 PM

How much does Richard Alpert know? I'm not sure; he was hoodwinked by Smokey-Locke... Darth

Reading that made me think...maybe it's Jacob who's been hoodwinking Richard all along. No wonder Richard is confused - he only knows what Jacob has told him - as do The Others, as did Dharma (via their Treaty and meetings with Richard). If Jacob is actually force for evil in all of this, and you take what FakeLocke (or whatever we're calling him) said to Richard about "Good to see you out of your chains" as a metaphor (that's not a Nesspi theorem, someone else did that first!) for like "Look, I've freed you from your bondage to the dark lord" then...

....I think my brain is going to implode soon and run out my nose. I need to stop thinking about Lost. The fricking premiere hasn't even AIRED here in NZ yet. I HAVE NOONE to jabber excitedly at!

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 7:09 PM


the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Jacob is the evil one and MIB is actually the good guy Nesspi

Whole buncha folks backin' that horse

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 4, 2010 7:09 PM

yeah basically as soon as they cast Titus Welliver as the MIB I had picked my side in "the war", and was like "pleeeeease, pleeeeease don't make Titus be Satan".

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 7:17 PM

Nesspi >> A good/evil alignment switcheroo on Jacob and Smokey is an appealing idea, but the face value actions we have been given seem to run against it. Smokey is the one who murders people. Smokey is the one who deceives and manipulates people. Maybe these actions could be deemed for a "greater good," but as much killing and lying as he's done...it's tough to justify. Jacob could very well have been doing some lying and manipulating himself (manipulation obviously), but in our (albeit limited) exposure to him he has seemed compassionate and willing to give allowances for free will. He certainly hasn't seemed murderous, and given the season five finale, a specific murder has been Smokey's prime objective for many years. Good guys in my opinion generally don't hurt people and don't lie.

I think it's more likely that both Jacob and Smokey are bad guys (or just acting in their respective self-interests), and our Losties are merely pawns.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 7:29 PM

Quick addendum: I guess Smokey could be the "good guy," if you subscribe to the belief that the Judaeo-Christian God of the Old Testament is a good guy. I don't.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 7:37 PM

I think maybe it's gonna be a bit more shades of grey, in that Jacob and MIB don't represent good vs evil but represent free will vs destiny (or something like that). when you look at ANY of the characters on LOST, none of them can be classified as wholly good or wholly bad people. even Ben, who people seemingly love to hate, has a heart - he refused to kill Rousseau and her baby.

Ah see this is why I need to stop theorising . I can't settle on a theory. Do we think MIB is ever going to be named though? I propose Edward, so it comes down to "Are you Team Jacob, or Team Edward?"

MWA HA HA. I'm sorry I know that was pure evil.

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 7:40 PM

I propose Edward, so it comes down to "Are you Team Jacob, or Team Edward?"

MWA HA HA. I'm sorry I know that was pure evil.

Yes. Bad Nesspi! I think you just irrevocably tainted Lost for me!

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 4, 2010 7:51 PM

FakeLocke (or whatever we're calling him)

Hee. Last night pseudo-Mr. called him "UnLocke". I love that guy.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 4, 2010 8:01 PM

non sequitur:
people have been calling him notlocke which brings to mind matlock which brings to mind andy griffith and i really hate that guy.

Posted by: stopthemadness at February 4, 2010 8:17 PM

somewhat related non sequitur: now all I can think of is ZipLocke. DAMMIT!

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 8:51 PM


Sayid's resurrection scene was more similar to Young Ben's experience as a child than it was to Locke's transformation into whatever it is we're calling him. Richard carries Young Ben through the jungle, and I'm not quite sure if anyone actually comments on him being alive or dead, but either way, Young Ben is limp in Richards arms as he's carried to the temple.

But I think the real kicker is the awakening from both of them, who simply state the first question, "What happened?" It may just be a Lost coincidence, but both of them did just come out of that bubbling Temple sauna (assuming, of course, that Young Ben was healed similarly as Sayid, which I'm pretty certain of.)

Posted by: tripM at February 4, 2010 10:09 PM

Ok, hit the post button a few seconds, because this just dawned on me and I'm pretty sure nobody has mentioned it yet-

Sayid shot Ben in the stomach, who's taken to the temple, and healed. Then Poppa Linus revenges his son with a gutshot to Sayid, who is, you got it, taken to the temple and wakes up.

Posted by: tripM at February 4, 2010 10:14 PM

yep. tripM, love your work! this pretty much gels with my Sayid/Ben thinking very nicely

Posted by: Nesspi at February 4, 2010 10:34 PM

Darth, OK - I explained all my thoughts to the mister and he at least got what I was saying - so maybe it's harder to be clear in my writing.

I agree with your thoughts about Desmond's time traveling thus far - in that, as far as we know, there is a physical body in one place - and that body stays in place while the mind is time traveling. But on the other end of the time travel, there does seem to be a physical being that others can see. We agreed, for example, that multiple people could see Desmond on the Oxford end of his time travel, even while his physical body was in another time on the island. You're saying his mind just jumped into his preexisting body in that time. (I'm not confident about that part, because what happens if he jumps into the future - no body? But moving on from that thought...) So far we're in agreement, right?

That said, there is nothing which would preclude Desmond from having his physical body in the hospital, and him time traveling to the alternate or parallel reality of the non-crashing plane. Correct?

You said that you thought Jack might be hallucinating Desmond. I disagree because it makes no sense to me that the writers would just have Desmond (in particular) be added to that flight, for just a few moments. If he was a coincidence, akin to some of the other seemingly coincidental meetings characters have had, they why not just put him in a seat like everyone else? Why have him pop up, wanting to sit next to Jack - and then seemingly disappear? That's too calculated, in my eyes. What I'm saying is that Desmond is the one character who has time traveled before, on his own - not via island warp, and this is significant. The way he appeared and disappeared on the plane is significant.

Next up, yes I agree we are seeing alternate or parallel realities. And yes, if the non-crashing plane was the one true reality, everything we have already seen would have been undone. At least to some point, and as yet, we don't know what point that is. My thought though is that this reality will not stand (the un-crashed plane reality), because I just don't believe everything can be undone like that. Whether both timelines get merged somehow, or something happens that eliminates one reality and leaves one standing, I believe the reality of the plane crashing will win out (so to speak).

As for Desmond being Jack's constant - that was just an aside. Maybe at some point it would be significant, maybe not. The reason I thought about it is that Des and Jack have met several times now, that's all. Jack kinda sort has time traveled in that he landed on the island (after flight 316) in a different time - the 70s.

Posted by: Cindy at February 4, 2010 11:10 PM

New thought (I think?).

What if Jacob can also use Smokey's form? We've seen Smokey be fierce, but also benevolent or forgiving.

Posted by: Cindy at February 4, 2010 11:48 PM

No I don't think it's going to be a clear good or bad spectrum either, but more like God and the Devil in the story of Job where they're both really assholes, if you get down to it (or, for you secularists out there, think Don Ameche and Ralph Bellamy in Trading Places). One thesis about humanity is nicer, but the lengths gone to to prove that thesis are pure asshole.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 5, 2010 12:01 AM

You said that you thought Jack might be hallucinating Desmond. I disagree because it makes no sense to me that the writers would just have Desmond (in particular) be added to that flight, for just a few moments.

No no, they did it so that I wouldn't yell out during the premiere, "WHERE THE HELL IS DESMOND?!?!? I GOT A FEVER, AND THE ONLY PRESCRIPTION. . .IS MORE SCOTSMAN!"

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 5, 2010 12:03 AM


New thought (I think?).

What if Jacob can also use Smokey's form? We've seen Smokey be fierce, but also benevolent or forgiving.Cindy

I wonder about this too. Maybe not in the same way exactly. I am slightly suspicious that Nemesis is not the Smoke Monster after all. The main reason I'm suspicious is that Locke/Nemesis still left the room before the Smoke Monster appeared to kill Bram and his buddies. Then Nemesis says "I'm sorry you had to see me like that." So Nemesis wants Ben to see him as the Smoke Monster, but is it another lie? Why not just have Locke turn into the Monster? Could be nothing, but for a show that encourages the audience to attach significance to the slightest detail, I wonder if they still want to flip us over one more time.

I think there's an outside chance that the Smoke Monster is a third entity -- an actual Cerberus, possibly subservient to both Jacob and Nemesis.

But only an outside chance. For myself, I think they should be wrapping stuff up and not keep throwing new mysteries and twists out there. The only reason I bring it up is because, instead of just showing us that Locke/Nemesis is the Smoke Monster, as it stands at this point, we pretty much only have the word of the most untrustworthy character in the show.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 5, 2010 12:23 AM

But on the other end of the time travel, there does seem to be a physical being that others can see. We agreed, for example, that multiple people could see Desmond on the Oxford end of his time travel, even while his physical body was in another time on the island. You're saying his mind just jumped into his preexisting body in that time. (I'm not confident about that part, because what happens if he jumps into the future - no body? But moving on from that thought...) So far we're in agreement, right?

The part you put in parentheses that you're not confident about is my entire point, so I'm still not sure we're on the same page. Think of it this way: Desmond never actually time travels. There isn't a set beginning and end on any particular "time-travel" that he experienced. All that happens is that he gains a sort of omniscience of his experiences across all of his time in existence. He doesn't have control over when it ends and when it begins or what things he remembers. Thus, Desmond at the bar watching the soccer game in the episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes" has deja vu about the song "Make Your Own Kind Of Music" and is able to predict the outcome of the game because he is tapping into his future memories of these experiences.

In "The Constant," I guess is more useful to think of it as a time-travel experience, because his consciousness is ping-pong-ing back and forth between the two times, and that is presented to us in a linear fashion that makes an adventure. But it's really essentially the same thing that is happening. Past-Desmond accesses the knowledge of Present-Desmond to find out that he needs to go to Oxford to see Faraday. Present-Desmond uses the fact that as Past-Desmond he just asked Past-Penny for her phone number to call Present-Penny.

Present-Desmond accesses the knowledge of Future-Desmond to stop Charlie from getting killed in the jungle.

Faraday talks to Past-Desmond in the hatch so that Present-Desmond can know to look up Faraday's mother.

Desmond wouldn't jump into the future where he doesn't have a body, as you say, because he's not "jumping" anywhere. He only has access to Future-Desmond, Future-Desmond's consciousness, and Future-Desmond's physical location in the universe as far forward as Future-Desmond is still alive.

Does that make sense? That's my understanding or opinion of what is happening.

That said, there is nothing which would preclude Desmond from having his physical body in the hospital, and him time traveling to the alternate or parallel reality of the non-crashing plane. Correct?

So, no, in my opinion that is not correct. Unless he is doing a new brand of "time-traveling" (like Doctor Who does), the fact that LAX-Desmond is not on the plane in the first place would be exactly the thing that would prevent Island-Desmond from traveling to LAX-Oceanic 815.

If he was a coincidence, akin to some of the other seemingly coincidental meetings characters have had, they why not just put him in a seat like everyone else? Why have him pop up, wanting to sit next to Jack - and then seemingly disappear? That's too calculated, in my eyes.

Calculated. Exactly. It's to drive us mad talking about it and wondering what it means. I might ask in return: if Desmond was actually there via time-travel, why not just have LAX-Bernard and LAX-Rose admit that they saw him instead of giving us uncertainty as to whether he was ever there at all? Why imply that it might have been that only LAX-Jack had seen him? Why not just have LAX-Bernard and LAX-Rose say: "We don't know where that guy went." The very fact that they give us Jack as the only witness at least raises the possibility that he wasn't physically there and was only a figment of LAX-Jack's mind.

On the other topic, if I had to make a prediction, I would agree with you that they are only going to let one of the two realities stand. I'd also agree that the plane crash Island-reality is the one that will win out. It'll be awfully bittersweet, though, when that coffee between LAX-Sawyer and LAX-Juliet is erased from existence, though. :- )

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 5, 2010 12:45 AM

I'd also agree that the plane crash Island-reality is the one that will win out. It'll be awfully bittersweet, though, when that coffee between LAX-Sawyer and LAX-Juliet is erased from existence, though. :- )

Or maybe they'll just flipping kill Juliet, AGAIN. Seriously, writers, kill Kate instead.

Posted by: coveredinbees at February 5, 2010 1:56 AM

With this comment, I am responsible for 38 out of the 260 comments (approximately 14.615 percent) on this thread.

Yeah, I might have a problem.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 5, 2010 2:48 AM

My thought though is that this reality will not stand

I was thinking about this and thought to myself, "Self, wouldn't it be interesting if the idea was that there are multiple parallel realities, in which the people, even if different, have entwined destinies? In other words, Lucky Hurley and Nervous Jack landed safely in L.A. in this parallel reality, but at some point, they'll wind up on the island anyway. In this reality, Rose and Bernard never go to the island; does Rose still have the cancer? And do she and Bernard enjoy what little time they have together before she dies? Or do they wind up going to the island anyway, somehow, and the island cures her cancer, and they live happily ever after on the island until they die naturally from old age? Does each character's destiny remain the same in each reality? And why would the realities *have* to either converge or be destroyed? couldn't they co-exist? Sometimes when I'm looking for a sock, it's not anywhere, and then suddenly, there it is, right where I just looked. Is it possible that I slipped into a different dimension for a second? Or that the sock slipped?"

Then I realized that I have to maybe, i don't know, do some work before I get fired.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 5, 2010 9:32 AM

I think I can get on board that train, Kosmic Koyote. It did seem quite suspicious that MIB Locke had to walk away.

Darth, I'm fairly certain that Lost producers have referred to Desmond's experiences as time travel (I'll find articles if I have to!), so I don't see that as a question. The physics of it all may be in question - I"m saying I agree that it appeared Desmond's consciousness seems to be what travels - but I can't say for sure.
Here we go - from the horses' mouths:

"Desmond first time traveled in the third season, but it's not until season four that we see the scientific explanation for it. So this is a chicken-or-the-egg type question: Did you learn about the science first, then work it into the show? Or do you think of a plot element and then research different scientific theories that back it up?
DL: This is where, while Carlton has a much more practical background in science and engineering, I have a long and storied history in every single time travel story that's ever been written, and draw upon that to fundamentally provide our stories with what we want to do. In this case, we said the way that we want to do time travel on Lost is consciousness based, as opposed to somebody gets in a DeLorean or a HG Wells-like apparatus and zaps themself back in time where they can interact with an earlier version of themself. It's more interesting if your brain basically drops into your body at different points in your life, which is more consistent with the sort of Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse 5, paradigm, and also helps insulate you from paradox. So we decided to do that with Desmond. He felt like the logical person to do it with. We find an emotional core for the story—in his case, it's his desire to be reunited with Penny—so we tell time travel stories that sort of focus on the romantic element, which is why we think Peggy Sue in Back to the Future and Somewhere in Time all work. They're science-fiction stories, but they have an emotional core. And we go from there. And then we do the research.
CC: But the two aren't really separable, that's the thing. It's like, when we're actually talking about a story, and we're constructing elements, you know, we're always talking about the plausibility of any given beat. I think the danger that always exists on this kind of show is that the audience has to buy what you're doing. We use all sorts of different things to inspire our storytelling, but you're constantly weighing any sort of story beat against that criteria—will the audience believe it, will they buy it, particularly when we do something as out there as consciousness traveling. So we try to find a way to make it seem plausible, and yet, at the same time, clearly it's a real flight of fantasy kind of story.
DL: And the coolest thing about consciousness time travel is, you know, you're sort of a slave to your memory. So if Desmond travels back in time and he remembers that a certain team beat another team in a football game, and then something different happens, we're hinting at the idea that the future has changed, when in fact he just remembered it wrong, which is kinda cool for us. "
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4260693.html

I'll continue in a new post...

Posted by: Cindy at February 5, 2010 9:40 AM

AvB, I have thought about that as well - and I have absolutely thought that some people have a destiny to go to the island and some just don't matter (as cavalier as that sounds). Like Sun, for instance...I'm not sure she belonged. She has always been kept separate.

I really want to know what Ilana's deal is. Why is she in the Lost Last Supper photo?

Posted by: Cindy at February 5, 2010 9:45 AM

So anyway Darth - I don't get why you disagree about Desmond being in his physical body in the hospital and being able to time travel to the plane? You're saying that his physical self has to already be/have been on that plane in order for his consciousness to travel from hospital bed to the plane, right? I'm saying - who knows? We see new sorts of things each season. And yes, I know they like to drive us nuts with the speculating, but there is usually something to that speculation.

Posted by: Cindy at February 5, 2010 9:58 AM

I don't get why you disagree about Desmond being in his physical body in the hospital and being able to time travel to the plane? You're saying that his physical self has to already be/have been on that plane in order for his consciousness to travel from hospital bed to the plane, right?

Yes. That's exactly right. And that's why I disagreed. And that's completely consistent with this that you just quoted...

It's more interesting if your brain basically drops into your body at different points in your life, which is more consistent with the sort of Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse 5, paradigm, and also helps insulate you from paradox.

The only reason I was saying to think of it not as "time travel" is perhaps that makes it easier to conceptualize.

I'm saying - who knows? We see new sorts of things each season.

That argument I can accept. It could be something new. But physical displacement of Desmond's body would be something completely new - unlike anything we have seen before with him - and that was the only reason I don't think that was what was happening.

We see new sorts of things each season. And yes, I know they like to drive us nuts with the speculating, but there is usually something to that speculation.

Under my theory, I think there is something to the speculation, and the question of why it was necessary for the writers to point out that Bernard and Rose did not see Desmond remains.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 5, 2010 10:50 AM

Anna >> In another dimension I hope I keep my socks better organized. I doubt I have any greater diligence about my work with respect to wasting time on message boards, though.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 5, 2010 10:55 AM

previously on lost......(insert foreshadowing music)
ASHES ASHES, SMOKEY FALLS DOWN?

ok,, so looking fwd >>>>>>>>> to this wk's epi..

notlocke/miblocke/smokeylocke is probably heading to the temple w/guyliner intow on his shoulder? right?

ok.. so.. the alarm has been raised, the 'majik ashes' have been spread to render protection...
(we'd seen them round jacob's cabin also, and noted by the 'firesetting/deadlocke toting gang' to having been breached)

obviously smokey/locke considers the temple to be 'critical path' to its 'getting home'...somehow ransoming guyliner to achieve this...

i'd love some ventured guesses as to the origins of the 'majik ashes' and how the knowledge came to be common SOP(standard operating procedure) to thwart smokey?

hhhmmm.. why couldn't smokey get to the temple thru the 'temple wall breach'.. same way hurley/saving sayid gang did?

or the same entrance the smokey/thwarted french crew; w/time tripping jin in tow?

it would seem, at that time, smokey was acting as protector in not allowing french crew entrance..

now the 'team temple' is utilizing 'majik ashes' to keep 'it' out... seems like smokey's allegiance/control can be manipulated by various players.....

Posted by: kikz at February 5, 2010 11:11 AM

Finally - I think I can agree with your whole comment. Well, not that I agree with your perception of everything, but I understand your pov and I can see how you got there.

As for Desmond, I have no doubt we'll get an answer.

Posted by: Cindy at February 5, 2010 12:21 PM

With this comment, I am responsible for 38 out of the 260 comments (approximately 14.615 percent) on this thread.

Yeah, I might have a problem. DarthCorleone

Yea, I say unto thee -- thou art Co Monarch

And yes, it is up to me (cause I said so)

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 5, 2010 2:00 PM

Calculated. Exactly. It's to drive us mad talking about it and wondering what it means. I might ask in return: if Desmond was actually there via time-travel, why not just have LAX-Bernard and LAX-Rose admit that they saw him instead of giving us uncertainty as to whether he was ever there at all? Why imply that it might have been that only LAX-Jack had seen him? Why not just have LAX-Bernard and LAX-Rose say: "We don't know where that guy went." The very fact that they give us Jack as the only witness at least raises the possibility that he wasn't physically there and was only a figment of LAX-Jack's mind. Darth

That would be a new thing -- Desmond sort of traveling into Jack's consciousness, unless Jack is just hallucinating (which I doubt, because there's little point). So either way, it's something new -- Desmond is either appearing in Jack's subjectivity or Desmond is transmigrating between two parallel universes. Not enough clues to say which way -- wonder how many episodes before they start to lock it down.

DL: This is where, while Carlton has a much more practical background in science and engineering, I have a long and storied history in every single time travel story that's ever been written, and draw upon that to fundamentally provide our stories with what we want to do. from Cindy's research

I would have to say the whole science and engineering thing is fairly irrelevant; they are definitely past the point of worrying about what's possible and anyway -- the mention of prior stories is the more telling comment. This isn't based on science, it's based on literary tradition.

In this case, we said the way that we want to do time travel on Lost is consciousness based, as opposed to somebody gets in a DeLorean or a HG Wells-like apparatus and zaps themself back in time where they can interact with an earlier version of themself. It's more interesting if your brain basically drops into your body at different points in your life, which is more consistent with the sort of Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse 5, paradigm,

Pretty much confirms what Darth has been saying.
also seems to express a little bit of disdain for "sciency" explanations, which may become telling. . .


So if Desmond travels back in time and he remembers that a certain team beat another team in a football game, and then something different happens, we're hinting at the idea that the future has changed, when in fact he just remembered it wrong, which is kinda cool for us. . . .

Now that's interesting, isn't it? It's a common conceit amongst time travel stories (one school anyway) that any time you change the past, it creates a branch in the timestream (or continuum or whateves) and creates two parallel realities: the original reality which the meddler would call "Home" and a new one that develops from all the consequences of the change. I'd say this is why we have LAX Jack. As to how they resolve having these two parallel options -- this will be one of the larger plot arcs of the final season (I predict), and they will merge or one will fizzle out and the other will become the "true" reality.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 5, 2010 2:48 PM

That would be a new thing -- Desmond sort of traveling into Jack's consciousness, unless Jack is just hallucinating (which I doubt, because there's little point). So either way, it's something new -- Desmond is either appearing in Jack's subjectivity or Desmond is transmigrating between two parallel universes. Not enough clues to say which way -- wonder how many episodes before they start to lock it down.

I acknowledge it's something new either way. Hallucination just makes the most sense to me as opposed to be any sort of transmigration, be it physical or into Jack's consciousness. My theory is that LAX-Jack is experiencing some sort of mental "deja vu" about his alternate existence. The injury on his neck could have been a physical manifestation of the same phenomenon. My prediction is that he'll have more experiences like this, and this could lead to his actively taking steps that might bring the universes together. Hence, I do think hallucination has a point, if it's a direct offshoot of The Incident.

Now that's interesting, isn't it? It's a common conceit amongst time travel stories (one school anyway) that any time you change the past, it creates a branch in the timestream (or continuum or whateves) and creates two parallel realities:

I think we've now established two different sorts of "time travel" in the LOST universe. One in which everything stays in the same universe and is essentially a closed loop (Island-Desmond's experiences in the episodes I mentioned above), and, yes, one in which the LAX universe is necessary. As I speculate above, I wonder if the detonation of the bomb and the prevention of the crash were such traumatic events that they have violated Ellie's rules of course correction, and this violation puts all of time-space in jeopardy.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 5, 2010 4:55 PM

I was reading a new (published after the premiere) interview, and the producers brought up a point that bothered me a lot during the finale - how arrogant are the group that decided to set off the bomb? They really only thought of how things might work out for them, but not of all the other people and events that might be affected. Apparently that idea will be explored.

Posted by: Cindy at February 5, 2010 7:21 PM

Cindy >> I was so caught up in how ridiculously crackpot Faraday's plan and Jack's faith in it were that that I didn't even bother to think about that angle, but it's a good point. The plan was so crazy that I assumed that if they expected us to take it seriously than I figured they also expected us to only think in terms of the crash's happening or not happening. It's good that they will be exploring the potential ripple effect of all other actions between 1977 and 2004 caused by the lack of the Island as it had been.

What didn't make sense to me was this: o.k., Jack. You're acting in the self-interest of yourself and the other Losties. But do you expect your consciousness to magically transport from 1977 to 2004 LAX when a nuclear blast happens? How scientific is that, Faraday? That's what this faith or feeling from the Island should have been telling Jack, or he at least should have considered it, because evidently it wasn't the case.

If you're doing something in your self-interest, it's difficult for me to reconcile it if you won't have any memories or awareness of what had transpired. Worse yet: if you're doing it for someone in some alternate universe that isn't even you. What would be the point?

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 5, 2010 8:44 PM

It certainly made no sense, which is why I wasn't expecting much of anything (as far as time) to happen. It felt like everyone just got to a certain point of desperation, where they could no longer think clearly (well, Sawyer was) and so they just went for the old leap of faith.

I'm also disappointed Faraday was just killed off the way he was. To me he was an important and interesting character who could have been better explored. And what about Frank? What a waste. For that matter, Miles has been turned into the comical sidekick - and that's another waste of a good actor and interesting character.

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Posted by: Patty at February 6, 2010 11:37 AM

Cindy >> I felt like those things were symptomatic of biting off more than they could chew once they established the set endpoint and number of episodes. Characterization suffered a little because of plot requirements. Season 5 had to end with The Incident, and as a result they only had so much time to address the Faraday and Miles threads. If we were back in sprawling season 2 mode, they could have done a bit more with the characters. I'm happy with the tradeoff, though. It seems a reasonable price to pay for a (hopefully) good ending to the story, and the primary characters are still properly textured.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 6, 2010 12:20 PM

I feel like a lot of characters have suffered as of late. We're getting tons of Jack, Kate, Sawyer, a bit of Jin and Hurley - but for instance, Ben (one of the most interesting personalities) has been reduced to a mess in the corner. Sun, Jin - we barely get anything with them. Sayid has long been thrown to the wayside. We're getting faux Locke, but the Locke some of us loved so dearly is gone.

Don't get me wrong, I adore this show and all the intrigue and the story. But I'm disappointed at the excess focus on the big three and their romantic connections.

Posted by: Cindy at February 6, 2010 12:51 PM

Ok, so tried the embed and that didn't work, so I will repost. Hopefully this doesn't cause a double post.

"I acknowledge it's something new either way. Hallucination just makes the most sense to me as opposed to be any sort of transmigration, be it physical or into Jack's consciousness. My theory is that LAX-Jack is experiencing some sort of mental "deja vu" about his alternate existence. The injury on his neck could have been a physical manifestation of the same phenomenon. My prediction is that he'll have more experiences like this, and this could lead to his actively taking steps that might bring the universes together. Hence, I do think hallucination has a point, if it's a direct offshoot of The Incident." Mr. Darth

One: Totally agree with the deja vu experience -- let's look at the side by side. If you havn't seen this by now, I would be surprised, but this is a video of the two plane "crash" scenes all synched up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-1qzelSWpE&feature=player_embedded cut and paste it, I don't want to get in trouble.

I think we are supposed to read this as Jack having some kind of twitchy feeling, even the look on his face at the beginning of the clip is telling. For us it's not weird because for us, we are jumping back through the entire show to the (possibly the first seconds) very beginning of the narrative -- total "Holy Shit" moment, but it shouldn't be holy shit for Jack, not if he doesn't remember anything -- shouldn't be special to him at all. So that look of recognition (or?) in his face is supposed to be deep and meaningful (yup, yup, agreed).

Two: The neck thing was foregrounded heavily -- we are encouraged to wonder about that too. There is some kind of physical connection between the Jacks, and thus between the universes (universi?)

But -- well, first I like your idea about the splintering consciousness, that's berry interesting. But, I said maybe Desmond is appearing in Jack's subjectivity, and I think you took what I meant -- i.e. Jack can see him but no one else can. However, this would be Desmond actually contacting Jack (for why I don't know yet); but by saying hallucination, I think you're saying that Desmond has nothing to do with this, will have no memory of it, that the Desmond that Jack sees is merely a figment of Jack's imagination, Jack's already malfunctioning brain playing tricks on him, by showing him a man he doesn't know? What for? Will Desmond be the discontinuity that leads Jack to realize that there are two realities -- the first piece of "something ain't right"? If that's where you going, I'll take that as a viable third option, or do I misinterpret your idea?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 6, 2010 1:54 PM

I was reading a new (published after the premiere) interview, and the producers brought up a point that bothered me a lot during the finale - how arrogant are the group that decided to set off the bomb? They really only thought of how things might work out for them, but not of all the other people and events that might be affected. Apparently that idea will be explored. Cindy


Well, that's Jack's thing isn't it? Nemesis tells us that Locke is the only one he respects because Locke is the only one who knew enough to want to stay on fantasy island (I guess he never met Rose and Bernard). Jack did everything he could to screw Locke. The Island turned Locke from a shlubby pathetic cripple (hate that word, but its what Locke would call himself), into a baddass, boar hunting, tarzanesque leader of men. But it don't work for Jack so he has to get everybody off the island. So Jack drags the six off the island and everybody has to deal, but then Jack changes his mind and decides we all have to go back. Problem is, Locke has to sacrifice himself to make it work, first by giving up paradise and leaving the island, then by, as Richard warns him, taking his own life -- which was a totally noble thing until Ben showed up. Jack manages to drag everybody back to the island and then decides he's still not happy. Dude, we totally gotta blow up the island. I'm with Sawyer, stfu Jack. But Jack plays on Juliet's weakness (perhaps unwittingly), she stops Sawyer from stopping Jack, she even bangs on the nuclear weapon (eight times, geeze), and blows Jack out to an alternate reality while she gets to die twice. Now Jack is probably going to decide he's not happy again and fuck something else up (god damn yuppy asshole, go buy yourself a porsche, find an empty-headed nineteen year old to blow you in it, and leave everybody else alone!).

Lets see how things work out for people after Jack "saves" them by exploding them in a mushroom cloud:
Rose -- gonna die of cancer
Bernard -- widower
Kate -- going to jail
Sawyer -- conman, unredeemed asshole
Claire -- loses her baby to adoption (I think he's supposed to be the antichrist or )
Charlie -- slap those junkie chains back on brother, no heroic redemption for you either
Boone -- still freakin after his sister, tortured by his own perversion
Sayid -- vicious thug, torturer for hire, I hear Abu Graib needs somebody
Eko -- drug dealer, warlord, hand-chopper
Jin -- jail best case -- worst case gangster
Sun -- cheatin on her husband, who my baby daddy?
Richard -- prob fish food
Juliet -- dead, and then dead again
Shannon -- confidence playing whore (Boone was lying!)
Ben -- good question
Locke -- dood!

some folks died on the island, but they were noble, redemptive deaths -- which for a character in a story is about as good as it gets.

If you're doing something in your self-interest, it's difficult for me to reconcile it if you won't have any memories or awareness of what had transpired. Worse yet: if you're doing it for someone in some alternate universe that isn't even you. What would be the point? DarthCorleone

This is the best part -- Jack the Saviour doesn't even know he saved anybody, so he's just as annoyingly unsatisfied as ever, probably drinking and still ignoring the hot mom from Modern Family. Everybody else suffers while he tries to work out his shit.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 6, 2010 2:25 PM

addendum

Jack is the tragic hero of the thing. Ironic to me because they were going to kill Michael Keaton in episode one, and this whole shebang was going to be Kate's story. It's kind of an alternate reality where we answer the question: what would have happened if Mr. Keaton hadn't died in the first episode -- remember that guy?

Instead, friends and loved ones drop like flies while Jack tries to decide if he's going to believe the ghost and kill his uncle. So many characters experience so many bad things because Jack thinks he's supposed to save somebody, while all he really had to do was nothing. Actually, from a tragic angle, I like it -- as long as Jack winds up dead at the end.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at February 6, 2010 2:33 PM

well, i'll ask again..

anyone hav the backstory on the 'majik ashes'?

Posted by: kikz at February 6, 2010 5:02 PM

What for? Will Desmond be the discontinuity that leads Jack to realize that there are two realities -- the first piece of "something ain't right"? If that's where you going, I'll take that as a viable third option, or do I misinterpret your idea?

Yes, that was my theory, although I was anticipating Desmond's appearance would just be one of many symptoms.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 6, 2010 6:03 PM

kikz >> No idea. Just something mystical, I would guess. I have vague recollections of similar measures taken in other stories dealing with spirits and demons.

Kosmic Koyote >> Re: Your character-by-character assessment of the LAX folks.

Yeah, that was my initial assessment as well. I'm wondering if a few of them won't get some sort of moderately happy ending, though. It seems a little heavy-handed if every one of them has his or her life go completely to hell.

You left off LAX-Hurley. He would seem to be in pretty good shape. I'd also say it looks like LAX-Sayid might get his happy ending with LAX-Nadia.

People have commented that LAX-Sawyer seems oddly chipper, but I'm not sure how different he is.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 6, 2010 6:15 PM

The next person who says Locke's body is possessed needs to be punched in the face.

LOCKE IS DEAD. HIS BODY IS LAYING ON THE BEACH. THE THING THAT LOOKS LIKE LOCKE IS NOT LOCKE...HAS NEVER BEEN LOCKE...WILL NEVER BE LOCKE.

Okay that's over.

To the author...the conversation between Jack and Rose on the plane is actually quite DIFFERENT then the one we saw originally. Go back and re-watch both.

I couldn't read passed that part as it was obvious the author only thinks they know anything about the show.

Posted by: Jason at February 6, 2010 7:01 PM

Jason >> Or we could just forego the face-punching, condescension, and general disrespect altogether and be civil to each other.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 6, 2010 7:40 PM

I hardly think Jack can be blamed for everything. And as I hear the producers and Matthew Fox say things go, they wanted to see how things would play out for the unprepared hero who fell apart. Jack was never supposed to be a hero. Anyway, Juliet and Faraday were pretty gung ho about the whole thing. Even Kate at the end. I know Jack and Kate are the ones to hate, but Kosmic Koyote - I think you're taking it too far.

I'm also sort of hoping that in the end, Jack and Locke form a mutual admiration society, and come out of it all with an appreciation for the other man's side.

Posted by: Cindy at February 6, 2010 8:32 PM

Posted by: jgeiser at February 6, 2010 10:49 PM

I quit watching this show midway through season 2, partially because Kate looks just like an ex of mine, and mostly ***SPOILERS***





cuz they killed Adebisi.

But reading what you guys think of the show is so much better than the show itself!

Posted by: Mikey Likes It at February 7, 2010 2:28 AM

Ooh, Cindy, good point about Jack the reluctant hero. In the early seasons he really was very "I'm not the leader"-y, and then he just kind of accepted it and rolled with it. I was kind of glad last when when ****SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN IT**** he just up and refused to play the part anymore, refused to make decisions, and refused to let Kate manipulate him (at least for a while). It's also an intersting contract with Locke, who tried so desperately to BE the hero, and wound up just being a kind of pawn.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at February 7, 2010 1:12 PM

What's interesting is that Jack keeps being thrust into situations where people want him to make decisions - and when he does and they don't turn out right, everyone has him to blame. In the end, I see him as a flawed guy (just like everyone else) who tries to step up when he has to. He's willing to take on what a lot of others aren't, and he often takes the kick in the teeth as well. I give him credit for at least trying to help out when most of the time everyone else stands around saying "what do we do?" And you can see how Jack suffers within himself when he makes a bad decision or does something that has terrible consequences.

Posted by: Cindy at February 7, 2010 2:54 PM

sigh.. thx darth...

Posted by: kikz at February 8, 2010 6:24 AM





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