Pajiba

too bad

So did she, like, turn you down for a date or something, Dustin?

I didn't love the pilot, but I quite liked the second episode.

And I'm...completely...offended that you think "My Own Worst Enemy" was anything but wretchedly conceived. They were grasping since the second episode to make their mythology and premise not completely retarded, and much like Heroes, just kept making it worse.

This is a perfect summary! I watched the premiere only to see Tahmoh Penikett play a role other than Helo. It's great to see him getting work post (or nearly post-)BSG- too bad it's a crapfest. I think a little plot tweaking and re-casting would fix it, however. Imagine someone like Lucy Lawless playing Echo and suddenly the whole premise sounds really fun. if they'd cast someone that could really engage the audience and and have a good time with it then maybe it would make us care about a character with no consistent identity... But with that droopy-eyed Eliza Douchecooch as the star who cares what happens to her?

I've also watched both episodes and am so far underwhelmed. Maybe most bothersome is the show's central conceit that the super rich would want to hire these dolls to be "perfect". Sorry, but think about it. You are some super rich guy (or girl) who presumably is elbow deep in free ass but it's not enough. So you accept a "perfect" doll who is essentially sloppy seconds from your golf buddy! And you risk going to jail for the privilege! And you don't mind that essentially you are raping the doll! So to sum up you are an amoral, psychopath douche. This is the Dollhouse target market? I'm supposed to root for someone here?

Maybe they can make this work, but they have a lot of work to do.

I'm about half in the same boat. I wish the show had something approaching humor. That has always been the strongest element of Whedon's shows, and goes hand-in-hand with his great characterization. The only character sort of witty is the programmer guy. Probably because he's a Whedon alum.

After re-watching Firefly in it's entirety (Fuck you forever, FOX!)this month I noticed it did take Firefly a bit to get going too. Same with Buffy. But after their pilots those shows found a groove. I'm not as sure Dollhouse will and I'm more suspecting it already has. I like the overlying arc (Echo's past, the introduction of killing machine Alpha) but they really should have left the FBI agent out until season 2. It's like they know the premise and logic behind it is strained so they are trying to fill time with 3 separate stories at once. It doesn't feel like a full show, only a half realized idea.

I'm also not sure how plausible it is that Helo is having such a hard time finding a place that has an apparently never ending supply of clients.

I'm sticking with it for now, it makes a decent lead in for my BSG viewing on Saturday morning. But I'm not seeing a season 2 in their future unless there is a shakeup.

I was actually surprised by how much I liked it. A lot of what you say is true, and as a Whedon show it's lacking, but it was better than I was expecting. Maybe I just had really low expectations? I didn't know too much about it to begin with, maybe that helped?

Dushku isn't a good actress, but she didn't annoy me as much as I thought she would either. I really did like her as Faith, but when she's doing the good girl thing, it just comes across all wrong, wooden.

I'm not really sure where it's going, or how much of a shelf life it can have. I'm going to watch a couple more, see how it goes.

You will recall, perhaps, that the first few episodes of Angel blew serious ass and Buffy didn't get good until the second season. It isn't Fireflying, but Dollhouse is doing better than they did, at least.

I'm not entirely sold on it yet, but I do like it. Eliza Dushku is doing better than I thought she would, story arcs are setting up nicely; have faith in the Joss Man.

I REALLY wish he would have used someone other than Dushku, I haven't liked her since Faith, and goddamit she hasn't played a single character that actually differs from Faith (pissed off cheerleader-hating type [who's a cheerleader at heart] who's willing to get nasty with the boys).

We were pretty underwhelmed by the pilot. in fact, I spent most of the episode counting all the exBSG, exBuffy/Angel/Firefly peeps, etc.

But, that said, I liked the second episode a lot more, so I'm holding out hope.

Still think Dushku sucks as an actress...

Anyone else catch the promos for another soon-to-be-cancelled show starring Fillion? Like, hello, originality. Thy passing is mourned deeply.

I really, honestly, see where you're coming from. However, his interview with Rolling Stone revealed that the first few episodes were massively fucked with by Fox, and that's one of the reasons there's no humor and it's a bit soft. By his own admission, it'll get better after the first couple episodes. But yeah, I'm disappointed so far, a lot of which is becaue of Eliza Dushku.

I felt the same way about Firefly for the first few episodes. Then I loved it. I'm not saying you'll come around, but don't judge a Whedon show on its beginnings.

The first episode sucked majorly, especially for Joss Whedon.

But yeah, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for now. After all, it's Whedon - his modus operandi is creating shows that start out awkward and get really good. Plus the second episode was so much better than the first - as long as the show keeps on improving on itself like that, I'll keep watching it. Wish they'd move it to a time slot I actually have time for, though.

I'd argue the problem lies with the cast. Buffy and Angel and Firefly all had incredible ensemble casts. This show has one Central Character that's not even chatting half the time and a supporting cast that's drab and lifeless.
It seems like more of a writing exercise than a good show. As if he wanted to write something different each week so he made a loose overlying plot that could encapsulate all this.
I watch it with a fellow Whedonite and I can really only feign excitement and hope it gets better.
I've also heard that they've been showing these eps out of order so... I don't know. I can at least hope for improvement over time. Buffy wasn't spectacular for the first season either, I can only hope this is the case.

Seriously Whedon? Fucking Eliza Dushku? The weakest actress in Buffy history? You want another hit show, and you hire someone as one note as Dushku?

What the fuck were you thinking?

My parents spoiled me with HBO since I was weee. I find most if not all basic cable series utter shit.

I agree with those that say that Whedon's shows take time to find their strong elements -- I remember watching Firefly as it first started and not thinking much of it. By episode 4 or 5, I was with it to its (shortened) end.

That said, I think the problem lies in the show's sterility. So far we've nothing to latch on to. Dushku is attractive, but the role isn't riveting and she doesn't make it either. I think Dushku has done her best work as the foil opposite to the nice hero (Faith to Buffy or in Bring It On versus Kirsten Dunst).

If Whedon and Dushku are expecting people to hang on till episode 6 though...good luck. FOX has never shown patience.

Eh, it helps if you don't expect too much from any show. They can't all be "Buffy" or "BSG." If something holds my interest for more than a minute, I usually keep watching. It's not like there are a ton of other choices on Friday (except for What Not to Wear - Stacy and Clinton have personality). I still don't mind Eliza. So she's not Streep. Big deal. I'd rather watch her than any of the skanks on the various "dating" shows, who all seem to believe that screaming and slutty are personalities.

To each his/her own.

First: a confession. I pretty much adore the Whedon, and I self-identify as a BVS geek. (I liked, but did not love Angel, and I FUCKING LOVED Firefly.)
But.
That Eliza Dushku is a train wreck. When she appeared in the Buffy series, I was always rooting for Spike (or Buffy) to punch her in the throat. I admit it: her voice drives me crazy. I mean: seriously: YOU ARE BEING PAID TO BE ON A TEE VEE SHOW. HIRE A VOCAL COACH. I secretly yearned for vocal nodes to 86 her career.
So, I will not, cannot watch DOLLHOUSE. It would hurt me. Inside. Where it counts.

Firefly started with the "Train Job" episode, but was that actually a good idea? I think the Firefly pilot is terrific television. That was just plain stupidity on Fox's part showing them out of order. If Firefly took time to find its bearings (a statement with which I disagree), it certainly wasn't the fault of the show. I remember watching "Train Job" that first week and wondering why the hell we were jumping into the story as we did and who the hell the characters were.

mightygodking, I agree with you. Dollhouse's premise is rotten at the core, and I don't think it'll last the 6 episodes necessary to clean the bad taste out of people's mouths.


I would disagree about Firefly, though. It's lack of a simple concept (are they lovable roughnecks this week or hard-bitten thieves?) was a structural defect. Whedon couldn't decide what the nature of his crew was, and that prevented the plots from being consistent. The characters were so well-drawn that fans could overlook this, but it really shows up on repeated viewings.

yeah. Hmm. The british woman and that computer programmer kid are salvageable, though.

First off, Eliza had the development deal with Fox which is why Whedon is working with both Eliza and Fox. I liked the first episode, I wasn't blown away but I saw some promise. I really liked the second. I hear that the full Whedon force doesn't show up until the sixth episode. I hope people don't abandon this before we get the chance to really see Joss' true vision.

God please KILL ME now, the Whedon Defense Brigade is out in full force.

oh brrrrrrother, this show's a stinker.

I don't like alot of what I'm hearing on this thread regarding Miss Dushku. True, she's at about 7.5 on the Meg Ryan Scale of Fail, but that just means we will get to see full frontal in about, what, two more projects? Hopefully she does a couple of movies during the summer. I hear they're casting The New Guy II.

It's really not that great of a show. And I love Joss Whedon, so it really pains me to say it. But Dustin is right- it's Eliza Dushku, all the way. The girl just can't act to save her life. but even that, I was ok with (because I just yelled, "Faith! what are you thinking??" during the episodes) because I was expected some ass-kickery memory imprints. But so far, prostitute seems to be the common imprint, so I just feel kinda... bleh.

Just gonna throw this out there: it's supposed to be creepy, ie, renting out pretty young people to the wealthy. I imagine that's kind of the point, to give you a big, evil organization to go up against (like Wolfram & Hart), for when the Eliza character finally gets all her memories back and starts kicking ass and taking names or whatever. I assume that's where this is going (assuming it doesn't get canceled before the end of March). I guess we're supposed to think it's some kind of Russian mafia outfit.

Also, she's supposed to be blank and kinda stupid when she's not "imprinted" or whatever. Yeah, it's dumb.

Fifth. You forgot Skinemax LOVE.

I haven't seen the show yet. I forgot about it the first night it aired (I KNOW!) and DVR'ed last Friday's ep and haven't gotten around to it yet.

I do think some of you are being a little hard on Eliza Dushku. Her voice is not the greatest, true, but the rest of her is great--I don't mean her rockin' bod, but her expressions, stance etc. make her a good actress (not the greatest, but good). Her looks and her athleticism make her a natural Whedon muse, so it doesn't surprise me that he says he created this show with the idea of her as its star. That doesn't mean I think it was a good idea.

I gotta admit, most of you make it sound reeeeeally crappy. But every other time I decided not to watch a Whedon creation (Angel, Firefly) I wound up regretting it bitterly and having to catch up, so I'll be watching this thing for at least two-three episodes before I give up.

You heard it here first people, a Whehad has been declared.

Alalalalalalalala!

Tomorrow's first post: "Why People Who Don't Give Shows More Than Two Episodes to Prove Themselves Should Be Shot In the Face" and, of course, "Oscar Fashions."

Ideas... blah blah .. newsletter.. etc etc. In ohter words, I wish to join your Whehad. (admin, that is completely, absurdly awesome and I am stealing it.)

Nooo! I wanted to steal Whehad but AvB was too quick for me. I'm stealing it from her.

Whehad!

"Whedonites"? Now I feel like a door-to-door hooker in long skirts and a wimple. Maybe I can borrow Phillip Seymour Hoffman's. THAT would get me some recluse geek lovin' at comicon.

Enough with this FOX bullshit. Whedon got to air his show exactly the way he wanted to, and it blew. Big fucking deal. This shit happens all the time. He made a mistake, and the show will get canceled because it's no fucking good.

George Lucas, Francis Ford Coppola, Stephen Spielberg, Mel Brooks, David Zucker, Sam Raimi, and countless other big wigs who have made works I adore and revere have done this all the time, Joss Whedon is no different. He's just a genius who made a mistake, but will never hear about it because he's surrounded by obsessive fanboys. I've acted the same way, but even with those people I've drawn the line at some point. (The movies Clone Wars and Howard the Duck for those of you who know I defend the prequels.)

Joss Whedon fucked up big time, but I'll accept that, and move on, because of the memories, and hope for the future. He's screwed up before with Season 4 of Buffy, but he'll probably rebound. Live with the mistakes, and move on.

Fucked up big time? Seriously? It's been TWO episodes. And for the record, I'm not some Whedon fanboy. I kinda thought Angel blew. And Firefly? Well, I hate to rain on the parade but even that I didn't love so much. I just really loved Buffy. It just happened to be an amazing show with amazing direction and an amazing ensemble cast.

But, all that aside, even I know better than to only give a show that is likely to be steeped in mythology, as is Whedon's signature, a measly two episodes before calling it a fuck-up of substantial proportions.

Ugh.

I warned Joss about this last May, but nobody listened to me? I was roundly attacked by the folks at Whedonesque.com and harassed by one of their Moderators who went under the named Dr. Horrible. People said that I couldn't possibly be right about the show, or its flaws that early, so I was shunned...and viciously assailed. Now I feel somewhat avenged and vindicated therein, seeing that this, critic (see above)...and others, have pointed out many of the same flaws in the show that I sighted last May...and into June, July, and throughout the rest of 2008, until now.

That said, I loved the second episode of Dollhouse. It is just sad that they didn't make it the pilot episode--it is that good...or should I say, great! Also sad is the fact that Joss Whedon chose to listen to the "Yes Men" (Group Think) masses at Whedonesque.com, instead of the minority view that I represented? I think if he had listened, he would have had plenty of time to change the series in time to save it, now however...he is 13 episodes in, meaning 13 episodes have been written, and or, shot...and there is no way to re-imagine the series in time to avoid the critic driven rough ride, and possible cancellation, that it now faces.

Wow, a lot of people seem to have a problem with Eliza. I think Whedon knew a lot of folks would have issues with a show where the main character starts off as an empty shell. The challenge is interesting, no? How to build character development with no base to build on, just other people's personalities that she temporarily acquires. Joss did never did do anything the easy way.

I didn't love the first episode, but I enjoyed it. I really, really liked the second episode. So if the pattern continues, I'll like the third episode even more :) I'll keep watching, and hopefully Nathan Fillion, Alexis Denisof and/or James Marsters will guest star ;)

As the first act of the Whehad, I hereby decree that all faithful followers shall obtain multiple cans of aerosol cheese, bbq sauce and a dog.

Go fourth to the heathens homes on the pretense of bbq, seize the evildoers, slather them in tasty, tasty bbq sauce and I'm sure you know where the cheese goes. Then, my faithful Whedophiles, let loose the dogs of war.

Start with George, the force is somewhat detectable in that one.

Bluegoves.. just shut up. No one cares about your retarded rant about Whedonesque and how you were treat oh so horrible, you've got a chip on your shoulder mate and it makes you look utterly pathetic that you're going on about it.

The first two episodes have been good, the second was better but 'Ghost' was still a decent episode with lots of good themes.

Dushku can act and has acted very well in both episodes. I find it hilarious people are abusing her for acting lifeless and boring when she's playing mind-wiped Echo.. ah she's supposed to! She's a shell devoid of all human quirks and charms, she has no memory no genuine feelings. She's not meant to be entertaining, she's meant to be a mindless clone. And until she starts getting her memory back (which has already stated in 'Target') she'll stay that way. Why would Whedon write her or ask her to act entertaining when the very message he's trying to get across is that mind-wiping people is wrong, as the character Paul Ballard stated in the first episode; it's basically murder.

Dushku did a fantastic job as the negotiator Eleanor Penn and in 'Target.' She's not like Faith whatsoever and I think that's people's problem, they want her to be because that's what they're used to. The people saying she's acting like Faith are just being plain ridiculous, Faith *never* was level-headed and calm like the negotiator was, she was the exact opposite. Nor did Faith ever shriek and scream over the sight of a body or run around all terrified and meek. And if you want to compare how the character Faith dances to how the girl Echo was in the very first scene of 'Ghost' ... well nuff said, there's no similarity whatsoever. People are just talking out of their arse they have nothing to support the ludicrous claim that she's playing Faith over and over again.

And Whedon wrote 'Ghost' so no, episode six is not the first episode he writes for the season. Whedon had a completely different pilot written and shot but Fox wanted changes made and he re-wrote it and re-shot it to the pilot you got now, the whole opening scene with the motorbike race was Fox's idea for example. Fox has also said that they will left all 13 episodes air and play out so it can gain viewers so nope, it'd be very doubtful they'd cancel it before then.

The show has a lot of promise, go Dollhouse!

Well said Adam.

And for all those who think Ms. Dushku a light weight in the thespian department, check out her turn in the film "City by the Sea" where she more than holds her own opposite a certain well respected talent by the name of DeNiro.

I understand the criticisms on full display here but I have to concur that judging a TV show after two episodes is like proposing marriage after the second date; not a good idea.

There were some rough spots in the first episode, but overall I didn't think Dushku did a bad job. I chalk that up to the last-minute rewrite and reshoot. I'd love to see the original pilot. The second episode was even better.

The idea that "it's hard to tell the difference between when Echo is the listless vessel or when a programmed personality is inhabiting her" is just ridiculous. Did you actually watch the show? And I say this as someone who absolutely hated Dushku in Buffy.

The show's premise is not without problems. But I'm not sure this is as much of an issue as people are making it out to be. It's not as if Alias or X-Files or any other genre show hasn't had glaring holes in its premise. It's kind of the nature of the beast. Dollhouse's premise is at least as solid as these other shows.

That said, I still worry about Dushku's performance. She does tend to channel Faith a little too much (particular in the first episode), but I'm willing to give it time. Ensemble casts are difficult to handle in the first few episodes of any show. The pilot, unfortunately, did not really give us much of the ensemble. The second episode did, and I'm beginning to see where it's going. A third episode will probably round it out.

I'm not liking it as much as I liked Firefly, but it's definitely got potential to be that good. Time will tell.

Whedon's made a weird pacing decision. He's trying to build momentum towards the Big Episode when Echo recovers enough of her memories and/or something weird happens and she makes a run for it. And he's taking his sweet, sweet time.

The first episode set up the rules of the Dollhouse and the FBI guy chasing it. The second episode set up "Alpha," the idea that the memory wipes aren't perfect, and hinted at the Secret Powers What Made That There Dollhouse. I'm sure such "revelations" will continue until the breathlessly awaited Episode Six, when Echo wakes up or some such.

The problem is that the individual episodes that lay the groundwork aren't that interesting in and of themselves. (Yes, let's redo "The Most Dangerous Game." Again. Yes, again. -sigh-) I think we're supposed to feel some sort of emotional link, an ache when we see what's being done to Echo. But I don't. Disgust, sure, but as she lacks a personality that lasts more than half an hour, an emotional link doesn't form.

As many folks have pointed out, there's no one to care about on the show, no one we "want to see win." Not even the FBI guy, who's a total stiff.

Whedon's working like a modern comic book writer. He just assumes that people will be hooked long enough, or give the show a shot long enough, for the meta-plot to kick in and the show will "really" begin. The show seems to have a "six-episode intro arc." Not a good plan. Network television isn't known for its patience.

If you want to make the "Echo escapes" meta-plot climax halfway through the first season, which I don't think is a good idea at all, you'll have to find an emotional hook for the first five episodes. There isn't one. Eliza Dushku is crazy-hot, yes, but it's not enough to carry the show.

He's screwed up before with Season 4 of Buffy,

George, you're outta the Whehad. Season 4 is probably the most perfect season of television ever made, in the history of ever. I'll grant you, I didn't really like it that much on the first viewing, and referred to it as the boring season, but since collecting all the DVDs and watching them repeatedly, I realize now the error of my ways. It's paced beautifully, it makes major contributions to the overarcing 'verse, and some of the individual eps are the best single television programs ever made.

In other words, I disagree with your assessment.

I think that Dollhouse, while it's still in its expository stage right now, can go in some really interesting directions. This is an organization that is fucking with people's *brains*! That can't end well. And we see a glimpse that it hasn't, on at least one occasion. The technology question is there to be played with, as well; the human brain is an amazing machine, and I for one am interested to see how they work with that. I mean, you've got both functionality and psychology issues, there. You've also got your "ethics of big corporations" scenario, as well as those of the individuals who pay for these services.
There's a lot there to do things with, and sometimes, a slow build is what's needed to introduce all of those elements into a single, cohesive organism. While I would have liked to actually *like* the first two episodes a little more, I can't wait to see how it plays out.

To those that condemn us for blasting poor Dushku's terrible acting with the excuse that "she's playing an empty shell."

Did anybody catch this Nurses pilot? Yikes!

I saw Dushku and Whedon when they were hyping the show at the Apple Store in SoHo. Joss is really wrapping his head around the show and all the themes. He's gone to lengths to make sure this is a show that people can care about now and in the future, but Eliza really is that pretty and that stupid in person. She's another pretty face with a lot of omg I can't form words for how I'm feeling, but I wanna be 'more' actresses.

Apparently she's got as much hotness collateral as Jennifer Love Hewitt to get this show going and it's kind of sad in that way.

Joss is sacrificing a lot of himself to sell the network and the demos something they can at least accept long enough for him to be himself again, but it just hurts.

The girl isn't talented, isn't smart (no getting older and being experienced doesn't mean you got smart, it means you haven't forgotten all the times you didn't know enough to do better) enough to make a Joss show.

I cry inside, because I really liked her in the New Guy and Bring It On was funny too. That's your limit Eliza. Just stop it already.

yes....pajiba....i...........agree.............must eat brains....... (slobber)....

does anybody remember season one of buffy? i certainly do, and i seem to recall that it was mediocre, at best. it felt campy, the acting was weak (sorry, SMG only started actually acting when she got to season 2), until an episode called "angel" sparked my attention.

A friend of mine had shown me firefly, and I fell in love with it, watched the season and the series over and over and over and over, and realized i should start watching this buffy show, and I felt the way about it as I do now with dollhouse.

Personally, while i don't love dushku, she can act, just not in certain roles (looking at you, scared damsel but you only really look confused). I maintain faith (no pun intended) that echo will actually gain a personality (they're sort of hinting that this mind wiping isn't permenant with Alpha), and since it's joss whedon, it's one we're going to love.

That is, unless we're all to cynical and mindlessly agreeing with Pajiba to actually enjoy the show.

The only reason why Dushku got the job is because she gets nekkid at every opportunity and runs without a bra.

Actressin' at its finest...

I thought Dushku was fine as the hostage negotiator and the date, and the other date. Not special but not bad. Not Whedon-caliber, just average.

But when she's playing Echo in the dollhouse, it really is painful to watch. And I mean I had to look away at one point because I was embarrassed.

The failures of the show go far beyond her, she's just the most visible.

Blue Gloves,

It is not your opinion that got you flamed. Most of the posts here are pointing out the flaws in Dollhouse. Rather it is the self aggrandizing "look at me and how badly I was treated at some other website" manner in which you express them. I quote:

I warned Joss about this last May, but nobody listened to me? I was roundly attacked by the folks at Whedonesque.com and harassed by one of their Moderators who went under the named Dr. Horrible. People said that I couldn't possibly be right about the show, or its flaws that early, so I was shunned...and viciously assailed

Nobody cares that they hurt your feelings over at Whedonesque.com. Grow up, state your opinions without being a whiny bitch, and you'll find they'll be accepted or rejected on their merits.

okay okay please remember that joss has a way with archs, which means that from this large group of people working for dollhouse are going to split the good the bad thats why joss cant concentrate on just one character, the lines are going to be drawn soon with what appears to be next weeks episode toady is march the 13 so nexts weeks episode echo's true personality or the mixture of are going to flourish upon the evil doll and whoever his trying to do or kill or whatever like all things you cant just jump into stuff like a b action movie you got to have some build up to it some story line and thats what i like about joss that almost every episode fits in a larger way to the big story......... im a fan of joss so it might be that too.....lol

Big big big Buffy fan. Suffered five episodes of this dross in the hope it would get better. I think it's time I threw in the towel. In a word, horrible.

And Whedonites are the creepiest weirdest people, Joss Whedon is their god and they pray to him every night for salvation, just weird and disturbing.