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18 Kids and Counting | Pajiba - Scathing Reviews for Bitchy People

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The House of the Rising Son

“18 Kids and Counting” / Beckylooo

TV Reviews | February 11, 2009 | Comments (57)


I went to a Christian school for my first 11 or so years of formal education. We had a priest who read us the Narnia Chronicles and another who offered up the “Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve” schtick in his sermons. Enriching and confusing. I still believe in many of the teachings of our Lord and savior. You know, do unto others, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, don’t kill motherfuckers. The kid was all right. Though I suspect if he showed up in today’s Middle East, they’d toss his ass in Guantanamo with only a shat upon copy of the Torah to keep him company. All of this is to say, when I call wackadooo fundamentalists, Christianists and born-agains on their shenanigans, it’s with a great deal of empathy. And it’s why I can say, with out a touch of irony, that I absolutely adore The Duggars. Truth be told, I sometimes wish I was one of them.

For those who are unawares (and I’m not really sure how that’s possible ‘round these parts) the Duggars are the subject of a docu-reality show on Discovery Health called “18 Kids and Counting” (ne “17 Kids and Counting”). Ma Duggar’s popped out one a year for the last, oh, 18 years or so. They’re conservative Christians who home school their brood and take family vacations to the Creation Museum. They are the embodiment of everything smarty pants, snarky, pinko commies like us enjoy mocking. Except I love them. I really do.

They’re kind, patient and calm with their kids all of whom treat each other with love and respect. Ma and Pa Duggar seem to recognize the importance of raising them in a well rounded fashion. They learn to play instruments and change tires. They’re nonjudgmental of their heretical, hot cousin and they clearly don’t have a problem with sex. If the 18 kids weren’t proof enough, they’re comfy discussing the importance of fucking during pregnancy to, you know, soften the cervix. And Pa Duggar had the good sense to sit down his virginal son pre-nuptials and explain the importance and complexity of the female orgasm. Aside from the wholesale denial of scientific fact and wedding vows that read out of the dark ages, what’s not to love? Seriously. They’re beautiful human beings.

It was not too long after watching “A Very Duggar Wedding,” wherein Duggar the Eldest got hitched to a girl he’d never kissed, that I read this article from Natalie Dylan (so not her real name) explaining how she was all kinds of empowered for deciding to auction off her virginity to the (maybe) highest bidder. Now, I think there are some very legitimate reasons to get to fucking before anyone puts a ring on it but I can’t lie, I think there’s something sort of fantastic about the rather kookoobananas choice Josh and Anna Duggar made. I mean, these kids are clearly in love. Madly, bonkers, goofy youngster, gaga, hearts and flowers for each other. It’s rare to see them in the same room together without their fingers intertwined in some promise ring like knot. The sexual tension is awkwardly, sweetly palpable. During the post wedding ride to their hotel, the car cameras caught Josh’s totally unsafe driving practices as he and his bride sucked face, one eye occasionally drifting in the general direction of the road. They clearly wanted to devour each other. And the look on his face as he slammed the door on the camera man, that telling glint in his eye, knowing that, after using up all his Christian good boy will power, he’s finally gonna get mother fucking laid, made me smile broadly. Was it most likely awkward, what with the two buttoned up crazy kids having no idea what they were doing? Probably. Though who knows, maybe that “Your Wedding Night” DVD bequeathed from Pa to Son offered a few useful tips. My point is, if I had to choose between waiting to stick my tongue down a boys throat til we were hitched and auctioning off my lady flower on this douche bag’s website, I’ll take the Duggar way, please and thanks. Thankfully, modern life offers me alternative options.

I’ve been fascinated with HBO’s “Cathouse” since it’s inception. If you’re unawares (again, highly unlikely with this crowd) it’s a docu-reality show about a brothel in Carson City, NV. (Which, for the totally irrelevant record, voted Democratic for the first time in maybe ever this past election thanks to my awesome NV Obama peeps in the North. Holla!) Though it’s made by the chick who brought us all the “Real Sex” specials and manages to retain some of the sociological vibe of the latter, it’s really just a cynical attempt on the part of Fat Man Hof to publicize his trailer park fiefdom. In the first episode (which has the feeling of a one off special but who knows, the tubes are decidedly lacking in back ground info) he talks about how trashed and classless the place was when he bought it, how he brought an air of spic and span to the proceedings. He’s not a pimp, he’s the manager of a “commission based sales team.” They’re not hookers, they’re working girls. They’re not turning tricks, they’re having parties. They’re not fucking johns, they’re fucking clients. Cut to a row of cracked out looking “working girls” with their Lucite heels planted firmly on the nasty ass cocktail and cum stained carpet. A whore by any other name still smells like syphilis and Hof clearly has no problem fucking them dry and kicking them out the back door when they’re all used up.

As much as I hate the fat man, I love the girls. They work so damn hard to convince us they love what they’re doing that at times I almost believe them. They all have the same schpiel, “I love fucking. I get paid to do what I love. I’m in charge. I love helping people find pleasure. These poor men who’s wives won’t suck their cocks, they NEED me.” I want to believe them. I want to believe that they want this, that this existence makes them happy, that they make crazy money and can look at themselves in the mirror with love because the alternative is just too fucking awful. Maybe I could buy into their delusion if every dude who walked through their doors didn’t make my vagina cringe. But their clients are a steady stream of fat, hairy, slack jawed yokels and on occasion they’re equally unattractive, kinky wives. There’s a dead look in the girls’ eyes. An undeniable sadness. And they get crazier as the series evolves - 20 something episodes over 5 or so years. Sunset Thomas leaves heartbroken. Airforce Amy, who was bat shit to begin with, comes close to having a complete break with reality on camera and Isabella Soprano, the most outwardly normal and relatable of them all, disappears with a web only, dubious yet believable explanation from the fat man about drugs and porn.

Enter the little Women’s Studies Major that could:

When I learned this, it became apparent to me that idealized virginity is just a tool to keep women in their place. But then I realized something else: if virginity is considered that valuable, what’s to stop me from benefiting from that? It is mine, after all. And the value of my chastity is one level on which men cannot compete with me. I decided to flip the equation, and turn my virginity into something that allows me to gain power and opportunity from men. I took the ancient notion that a woman’s virginity is priceless and used it as a vehicle for capitalism.

Are you rolling your eyes? I knew this experiment would bring me condemnation. But I’m not saying every forward-thinking person has to agree with what I’m doing. You should develop your own personal belief system—that’s exactly my point!

I’m not rolling my eyes but my heart is breaking a little. Not just because of her OMG-like use of an exclamation point but because she’s blissfully unaware of what a cliché she is. Dangerously so. Idealizing virginity keeps women “in their place” how? And which place would that be? The kitchen? Their parent’s home? Is “are you a virgin” a question on some job application somewhere? Ingesting the feminism of the 70s and believing it to be directly applicable to this day and age is to try to build straw men from long fallow fields. We are living in a day and age where men and women alike have to sit through hour long snoozefest seminars on sexual harassment and sign reams of paper promising to have heard and understood all the ways one must be respectful in the workplace. That’s not to say it’s not important to keep pushing away on the issue of pay equity or calling out assholes when they let slip some good old fashioned misogyny but to claim women are kept in their place by idealized virginity is so not of this century that I don’t even know where to start tearing down her argument.

There is a line of broken women, ready to run down a double banger hallway in stipper heals to be viewed by anyone with a pay cable package, all of whom have already “experimented” with her “thesis.” Not one of them appears empowered let alone happy. None of this is to say Ms. Dylan shouldn’t go forward with her plan. It’s her body and she’s an adult. If she does go through with it (and the auction’s been up for 6 months so who knows) I hope she takes the money, gets a great education and leads a productive, happy life. But let’s not call it empowerment. It’s not. It’s getting fucked for cash. If you want empowerment, I’d tune into Discovery Health. I think the Duggars are onto something.

I’ll leave you with this ‘cause Odetta’s the shit and Feist is almost as good:

Beckylooo spent the majority of the last year helping to elect a President. She now writes television full time. She is fairly confident her greatest accomplishment is behind her. Further rantings and ravings can be found at If A TV Falls in the Woods.


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Comments

Goddamn, this was a great piece.

Posted by: TK at February 11, 2009 4:38 PM

Ma Duggar's also getting paid for sex, isn't she? She just didn't have the business savvy to get the money up front.

There IS another option. Keep yer ("non-scripted") screwing off my TV, especially if you're going to be self righteous about it.

Posted by: frumpiefox at February 11, 2009 4:55 PM

Yeah, what TK said... Great fucking job there, beckyloo - seriously. That was perfect.

Posted by: Skitz at February 11, 2009 4:58 PM

Great piece, Beckyloo.

If I had the money, I'd totally buy that girl's virginity, make her sign a huge contract guaranteeing my right to it, and then never actually have sex with her.

Posted by: Macafee at February 11, 2009 5:03 PM

*slow clap*

Bravo Becks, bravo...

Posted by: Xtreme at February 11, 2009 5:05 PM

Very well written beckyloo. I'd point to Chez's piece on the Duggars over on Deus Ex Malcontent. You've almost got a pro/con thang going here.

Posted by: stipe42 at February 11, 2009 5:06 PM

Well done, Beckyloo! Just...lovely and pertinent.

I'm totally one of those breeder-haters (just because you can doesn't mean you should) who love to make fun of the Duggars and Octo-mom and Jon and Kate.

But you know what? I came across "Kids by the Dozen" the other night and had to bite my tongue. How you feel about the Duggars, that's how I feel about the Gonyas. They're 5 times more stable and loving than most parents out there with only one kid, so I say breed away, you happy people you!

Posted by: Susquehana at February 11, 2009 5:06 PM

Prostitution is a job. How many people here look/feel empowered when they're mulling about their work day? I don't think that the fact that prostitutes aren't convincing in telling you they enjoy their job is any more sinister because they're selling sex. That's just old puritanism rearing its ugly head. The tut-tut society just cracks me up. Love isn't about sex because sex is just a physical thing... UNLESS you're trying to sell it, in which case you're selling your soul piece by piece. Jesus H., it's a trade. If those who ply it have underlying issues with it it's probably because society keeps whispering that they should. And the idea that prostitution is something that people do because they can't get a better job... EVERYBODY does their job because they can't get a better one. People who can get better jobs and don't take them are called idiots.

I went to a top-ranked university with a girl who stripped the whole time while getting her math degree in 3 years and enjoyed it so much that when they had their cutesy little Mardi Gras strip tease thing where girls made fumbling attempts at sexiness in bikinis and tied-off t-shirts, she came out in pasties. Used the proceeds from her work to buy a car and a set of boobs while paying for college, married a doctor, and lived happily ever after. Man do people need to get over their hangups.

Posted by: Eep at February 11, 2009 5:13 PM

The Duggar wedding episode was so sweet that my cynicism and vitriol actually disappeared. It was so cute when the brothers saranwrapped Josh's car with the ring still in it.

I was a little disturbed when the bride's father was going on about how they don't serve alcohol at weddings because in the Bible Jesus actually turned the water into grape juice, and that dancing leads to lusting...but I've heard that alcohol and dancing free weddings are pretty common in a number of Southern communities (I know a girl in Arkansas whose wedding was such that the reverend had to approve the wedding party's dress length). I can't imagine a reception without dancing or drinking, but maybe that's because of the culture I grew up in. Or maybe I'm just an alcoholic cock-tease.

Posted by: Julie at February 11, 2009 5:14 PM

Oh my this is good. The writing, I mean. The rest is a drag.

Posted by: Ohioan at February 11, 2009 5:21 PM

Beckyloo, absolutely brilliant. Truly.

Posted by: Megan at February 11, 2009 5:21 PM

A very well-written piece. Reasoned. Logical.

But it doesn't change the fact that I fucking despise the idea that the Duggars get a television show because they don't use birth control.

Posted by: Lindsay at February 11, 2009 5:34 PM

because in the Bible Jesus actually turned the water into grape juice

Shit like this is why Mohammed, Buddha and I don't come to Earth anymore. "Alcohol is bad" ... right, I invented an entire religion around a drinking game and somehow I'm against alcohol. "Sex is bad" ... Oh come on, one of my first followers was a hooker. Hey Mary Magdalene, how anti-sex am I?

Everybody says I'm against this and against that. They just say I'm against anything they don't like. I can't wait to hear how next week I'll be against underripe fruit, or flip-flops, or dairy. I was the original free love, live and let live hippie. Remember kids, Jesus says: dude, don't be a douche.

Posted by: Jesus at February 11, 2009 5:57 PM

Eh, I seriously doubt that Ma and Pa Duggar are exactly as they are depicted on these shows. Her sickly sweet high pitched baby voice, his little beamy smile that never leaves his face. Either they have some good prescription shit, or that's not the whole story at all.

Plus you realize, right, that in their world the entire reason for a woman's existence is to pop out as many babies as possible?

I did have a child, but I have so much more to offer the world than that. Every bit of me rejects any culture or religion that says I am inferior because of my chromosomes.

Posted by: Anastasia Beaverhausen at February 11, 2009 6:29 PM

(Which, for the totally irrelevant record, voted Democratic for the first time in maybe ever this past election thanks to my awesome NV Obama peeps in the North. Holla!)

Very few times can I say I am proud of the state I live in (I mean Nevada). Election night was my couch-jumping night, let me tell ya. When you walk into a conversation about them darn liberals in the city and think they're talking about Gavin Newsom and they're really talking about Harry Reid, this is HUGE.

That said, I've come to the point where I would rather watch Reno 911 than any of these shows, no matter how well they are dissected on here (kudos for that, by the way).

Posted by: Anne (in Reno) at February 11, 2009 6:35 PM

Beckyloo, FANTASTIC.

I am a closet Duggars fan too. If you can support and keep up with that many kids, then by all means, have a huge family. The Duggars make it work because to them, their family is their priority (after Jesus, of course). Family is what they spend all their time and energy on.

Thanks again, Beckyloo. Lots to think about!

Posted by: tt_marie at February 11, 2009 6:35 PM

I was a little disturbed when the bride's father went on about how marriage is nothing more than the transition of of power (over the woman) from father to husband. That's some messed up shit

Posted by: carolyn at February 11, 2009 6:46 PM

I was a little disturbed when the bride's father went on about how marriage is nothing more than the transition of of power (over the woman) from father to husband. That's some messed up shit

Posted by: carolyn at February 11, 2009 6:46 PM

Pa Duggar and Hof are brothers under the skin. Both see women as things to be used--the former sees them as walking incubators, the latter as cash cows. This is what grey-haired old feminists refer to as the Madonna/Whore complex; that women must either keep their legs crossed until marriage or sell themselves to all comers. We can argue for days as to whether it's better to be a Madonna or a Whore, but in the end most women would rather be neither. Both Ma Duggar and Natalie Dylan deserve more from life than to have their vaginas exploited for God or the Almighty Dollar. Women are people, not mobile wombs or sex toys. You think the media would have realized that by now.

Posted by: Inaras at February 11, 2009 6:56 PM

Yeah, no. They're not Inaras. That assumes there's no love between them, that she gets no fulfillment from being pregnant and being a mom. Now, I'm willing to consider that my presumption that working girls hate themselves is as erroneous as yours. (Though I've met plenty of happy fundy Christian baby makers and not one happy hooker) But regardless, the Madonna/Whore analogy is as static as Ms. Dylan's surface and outdated understanding of women's studies. That analogy assumes no complicity from the women involved. We're just victims of "the media's" (though what they have to do with this I have no idea) portrayal of us rather than active participants in the creation of our lives and images in a day and age when far more opportunities are open to us than ever before. You don't have to subscribe to the Duggars admittedly cattywompous religious doctrine (lord knows I don't) but to claim some feminist moral high ground when there's zero evidence that Ma Duggar isn't fulfilled by her choices proves you to be as dogmatic and intractable as the Duggars themselves, albeit on the other side of the spectrum.

Posted by: Beckylooo at February 11, 2009 7:28 PM

Inaras, why do you assume that Mrs Duggar is being exploited just because she's female? I'm sure it was entirely Mrs Duggar's decision, due to her faith, to have so many children. Plus it's not as if she and her husband set out to have kids to get a TV deal... If she wants to have 18 kids, let her, and if she wants her family to have their own TV show, why not? That doesn't mean her husband is exploiting her.

Posted by: Lolita at February 11, 2009 7:30 PM

Lolita Very little is "entirely Mrs. Duggar's decision." You mention her faith--do you know about their particular brand of Christianity? The man is first and foremost in everything. He is the undoubted, undisputed boss. He reigns supreme. It is NOT up to her whether or not to have babies in their belief system. It is up to 1) God and 2) her husband.

The end. His opinion overrides hers, even in the most mundane of issues (assuming he has an opinion on the particular thing). If she's in doubt about something, she has to ask him and defer to him. I only wish I were exaggerating here.

Yeah, she's an adult with a brain and she went along with this when they chose this type of Christianity years ago, but she hasn't made a single decision on her own since then. It's not allowed. You really should read up on some of the women who have left the "Quiverful" movement. They tell some pretty desperate, sad tales of constant submission and being completely pre-empted as a PERSON.

Posted by: Anastasia Beaverhausen at February 11, 2009 7:39 PM

Anastasia - I think Beckylooo sums it up better than I can. Just because you would not choose to live the same lifestyle as Mrs Duggar doesn't mean she can't find fulfillment in it. Presumably her faith is such that she embraces this form of life and if she's happy, why not.

Posted by: Lolita at February 11, 2009 7:53 PM

I think some people are missing the fact that all of her choices are predicated on "as long as she wants to be married to this man in this life style." If you agree to do as you're told by your choice, then you're still a free person. Oppression is living under conditions you don't care for that you didn't agree to. The world, country, state, and city she lives in have no laws saying she had to marry this guy and lead this life, so she did so freely.

Posted by: Eep at February 11, 2009 8:20 PM

I have never seen this show, so most of my opinions are based purely on what other people have said. My real question is, what does this guy do? How does he make the money to support the family?

Or is it subsidized?

Posted by: admin at February 11, 2009 8:30 PM

I love the writing, Beckyloo, but I just don't buy it. For one thing, the girls are always doing chores and caring for the younger kids, and the boys seem to do little else but play. It seems that the girls have "duties" and the boys have choices.

Isn't feminism about choice? Mrs. Duggar seems happy with her choice, admittedly, and the hookers probably had a dearth of choices available to them, which likely influenced their choice of job. Will the Duggars give their kids that benefit, of being able to give and accept their childrens' choices? What happens if one of the kids grows up and say, turns out to be gay? Will they show compassion? The true measure of good parenting, I think, is not what we plan for our kids, but how we deal with what is unexpected and unwanted. I am more impressed with parents that are compassionate and loving even when they disapprove or aren't comfortable. Until they put that on TV, I'm not sold on the Duggars.

Posted by: Cat at February 11, 2009 8:41 PM

All I can think of is the last three kids that most like walked upright out of that vagina... Seriously that thing has seen more traffic than the I-95 overpass I live under.

Posted by: Diablo at February 11, 2009 9:02 PM

Tell you one thing, Mrs. Duggar better get cracking if she wants to stay ahead of Suleman. Nadya's going to fetch her ass in a litter or two if she keeps one-at-a-timing it.

Posted by: Eep at February 11, 2009 9:12 PM

The Duggars manage to support their brood partially through exploitation (they do get paid for their shows), but I'm willing to concede that even without TLC prostituting their way of life for profit, they could probably manage.

But, while they might be raising happy, polite little Jesus lovers, and while they might even be able to support them on their own (unlike octo-mom) is it really a good thing to partially condone having 18 children by giving them TV specials and shows? This is NOT an option most women should be taking, choice or no choice. We're overpopulating the planet as it is.

Posted by: Lindsay at February 11, 2009 9:23 PM

Superb writing, Beckyloo. Having been brought up by conservative Catholics who read lots of James Dobson's Evangelical parenting books, I totally see where you are coming from. I wouldn't want to be a Dugger, but the amount of cheerfulness, kindness, and respect in their family is amazing. The son and his wife are so crazy-in-love adorable, it melts my heart. You absolutely captured how the Dugger clan are "beautiful human beings."
It's nice to see a Pajiba piece willing to admit that refraining from doing the nasty doesn't necessarily make you pathetic. This VirginMcCatholicVirgin gives you points for intelligent analysis with a heart.

Posted by: Empress of All the Russias at February 11, 2009 9:40 PM

This was great writing. Thank you for sharing.

Posted by: twig at February 11, 2009 9:53 PM

I think Lindsay's is the practical argument that makes the rest of it moot (though there's lots of thoughtful reasoning here). To quote Brad Neely's "Future Thoughts" cartoon: "I know what you want, you wanna make the circle of life, you wanna make new people, you wanna make new little people like yourself, you wanna make a lot of new people.

Don't make people.

I'll tell you what you do: don't make any more people.

Don't
make
people."

Posted by: Jay at February 11, 2009 10:33 PM

I don't know Mrs. Duggar personally, so perhaps she's very different from every other Quiverfull woman I've met. Perhaps she doesn't say out of men's hearing how she wishes God would give her a rest between pregnancies. Perhaps she doesn't mind the constant hormonal swings, nausea, and cracked nipples from so much childbearing and nursing. Perhaps if she had several miscarriages she wouldn't think God was punishing her. Perhaps she will not cast out a daughter who is seduced before marriage. Perhaps she isn't driven to a frenzy by the idea that a woman would refuse a "little blessing" if she herself couldn't have more. Like I said, I don't know the woman. Maybe she is genuinely happy, or maybe like many Reality TV shows the face presented to the world doesn't tell the whole story. If Mrs. Duggar is truly happy and fulfilled, good on her. This does not negate the fact that some little girls are raised to think that unless they live this way they go to hell, so you can't assume every Quiverfull wife is more enlightened than every sex worker. Both can feel trapped, powerless, and unhappy with their lot.
I would further posit that the Madonna/Whore complex is still relevant given the issues addressed in the last two presidential election cycles as sexual innocence and sexual freedom are typically presented as being at loggerheads by the news networks. I apologize if this sounds as if I'm trying to claim the "feminist moral high ground". Having never taken Women's Studies I don't know what this is. Being familiar with both Quiverfull wives and former sex workers, I am merely speaking my experience as you are speaking yours.

Posted by: Inaras at February 11, 2009 11:09 PM

Excellent piece, Beckylooo. Being from the South, I am quite sympathetic to your religious upbringing. And I also agree that there has to be something to this "marriage, then sex" thing than just chauvinism and...well, the m-word.

This "Madonna/Whore" thing: Um, no offense, but whoever came up with that idea was full of shit. That or was around a bunch of guys who already determined that a woman's sexual satisfaction was impossible/unnecessary to obtain.

I think a more accurate trite phrasing of a complicated concept would be "Family/Fuck Buddy". A woman falls into either Family (where the man would rather piss sandpaper than think of you having sex) or Fuck Buddy (where as long as you don't share too much DNA, you are fair game). Sure there are other guidelines, but those are the basics. Any other designations or categories is pretty much up to the individual.

Oh, and most men don't give an extraordinary nutsack about your sexual history. Sorry.

Posted by: Vermillion at February 11, 2009 11:52 PM

So this whole time I've been giving it away for free I could've be rolling in piles of dirty cash? I got screwed (badumbump.)

Posted by: Porkchop at February 12, 2009 12:53 AM

I'm buying a Feist album, that shit was awesome!

Posted by: George at February 12, 2009 1:56 AM

Eep: I'm thrilled that you have one of those "Hey, I went to Penn and I knew TONS of women who stripped for money and now they're federal judges!" stories in your quiver, but let's be honest here. The vast majority of women in the sex industry - especially the global sex trade - have a profoundly limited range of choices, be it because they're poor, runaways, drug addicts, or unfortunate enough to be born in a country with a thriving sex trade. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions. Please drive up and down the West Side Highway or near the Queensboro Bridge at 3:00 on a Saturday morning and tell me if those women are just plying a trade.

I also think many dudes tell themselves these exceptional stories that these women are putting themselves through college, that it's fun for them, etc. so that they can feel better about patronizing strip clubs, prostitutes, etc., but I digress.

As to the Duggars, I know people with two children who have fucked it up, so I've gotta applaud a family who can (for now, at least) keep the kids out of trouble. That being said, why are these types always home-schooled? Seriously.

Posted by: samantha t at February 12, 2009 5:43 AM

Thank you, samantha t. Comparing your friend stripping for tuition to prostitution is like saying the guy who sold pot to buy his books proves that a crack addict can become mayor....wait, bad example.

And I think what a lot of people seem to ignore is that sex is a very intense and personal thing. Not everyone can just shut down any emotional connection to it. If sex was simply another commodity, then wouldn't rape be considered, I don't know, shoplifting? Grand theft?

These women aren't giving blood for a few bucks; they are letting strangers have an intimate connection with them and then have to shut it off immediately. If they can make the disconnect and make it out alive, kudos for them. But it doesn't make up for the majority who don't.

That being said, why are these types always home-schooled? Seriously.

Saving on gas?

You see, they aren't ALWAYS using up resources! GAWD!

Posted by: Vermillion at February 12, 2009 7:49 AM

Funny the timing on this piece. We watched the Duggars for the first time the other night, and prior to actually seeing them in action my husband and I were one of the "Vagina is not a Clown Car" believers. But I'll be damned if I didn't do a full 180 on them.
The kids seem genuinely happy, clean, polite and loving towards their parents and each other. I am a Christian, though hardly Fundamentalist, and would never even consider home-schooling or the whole "girls wearing long hair and skirts because Jesus said so" BUT, it works for them and as mentioned in a previous post, they don't come off as judgemental toward folks that don't live the way they do.
Then there's the John & Kate + 8, or as I refer to them, the prequel to "John flees the country to Mexico", TOTALLY different vibe and dynamic. The mother is clearly pissy, the husband is sick and tired of her and the kids run around like a pack of animals.
Would I have 18 kids? FUCK NO. But it's nice to see a family so completely different from mine make it work and seem genuinely happy doing so.

Posted by: courtney at February 12, 2009 8:24 AM

I'm so glad I have support out there with my love for the Duggars. Anyone who I have convinced to watch the show with me has said, "These people are weird. Why do you watch this shit?" Yes, I couldn't be more different from the Duggar family in terms of beliefs/values/experiences/etc... But they are so effing nice to each other, and seem so genuinely kindhearted, that I can't help but love them. I live alone, far away from any family member, so 'Family Night' on TLC has kind of created pseudo-families for me. I don't give a damn if the Duggars think Earth is only 2,000 years old and they never let alcohol touch their lips. I don't give a damn if Jon & Kate yell at each other and people think they're pimping out their kids. I think they all love each other very much, and I enjoy their company.

Posted by: b at February 12, 2009 8:32 AM

Nicely done, Beckyloo.

I grew up in an unaffiliated fundamentalist church and eventually converted to Catholicism for the best possible reason: to marry Mrs. Daddy. It didn't make much difference to me. Both belief systems have their good points and strange ones. (I once started to ask a priest how anyone could possibly know blessed Mary was "ever virgin" and he said, "I know, I know. Don't ask." And that's a mainstream religion. There are some things everybody just takes on faith, even if it's just that the guy in the 18-wheeler will stop at that red light when you have the green.)

Anyway, back in the day that conversion would have put me on a level with the commies and the hippies and the homos on the eternal damnation shit list, but you know what? They seem to have gotten over it. These are some of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet, would give you the shirt off their backs. Always welcoming on the rare occasions I go to their church to make my mom happy. Always first in line to help somebody in need.

I don't know if any of them still believe some of the strange things they used to (they saw the AntiChrist around every corner) but even if they do that doesn't affect me one bit, except that I know and understand how they think and what they believe. I grew up and found my own belief system (decidedly oddball; I;m here, after all) and I'm comfortable with it. Some of the Dugger kids probably will do the same. But if they don't, if in the end they're happy with who and what they are, what business is it of mine as long as they leave me alone?

Posted by: bucdaddy at February 12, 2009 10:04 AM

The thing is, I can't seperate the fundamentalist religious aspect away to find any of this healthy. If the mother was raised with the brainwashing techniques similar sects of the fundamentalist christian right (and other nutjob religions - hello FLDS), she might not have as much say in these decisions as she should. And, a lot of kids homeschooled by said religious groups, do this so their kids don't learn how to think and decide life choices for themselves. Obviously, this is a generalization and their religious beliefs might not fall into the cultmaking mindset that apper frequently in this type of situation, but I still find it very, very creepy.

Posted by: erin at February 12, 2009 10:23 AM

But my point, samanthat was not that most or even many women in the industry are happy to be there, it was that the fact that many people who do it are dissatisfied with their jobs is no special indictment of prostitution and the sex industry. Anecdotally speaking I would say that MOST people hate their jobs. If you look at any industry and judge it based on how many people are well-adjusted and happy with their job and station in life, you're going to find a lot of industries in the same boat as the sex industry. The main difference I see is our social hang-ups surrounding sex. And Vermillion of course sex is very personal and intense... between people who love each other. So are the massages my fiancee and I give each other, but nobody is up in arms about the massage industry, except when they [gasp] pleasure their clients by working inside the pubic triangle. Is masturbation very personal and intense? It MUST be since it involves sexual gratification. You should only masturbate if you're deeply in love with yourself. What kind of sense does that make? These are just hang-ups. They're vestiges of puritanism. A large part of the reason the women in this trade feel so awful about themselves is probably that we spend so much time TELLING them they're awful and/or what they do is awful. The point of my story about the girl I went to college with wasn't to argue that all these women are actually happy with what they do, but to present a counter-example. All you need is one counter-example to show that there is not something about the industry that automatically means you can't enjoy your job and be well-adjusted. You know, when I first met that girl I thought she was fucked in the head and had serious issues, but that was my prejudice, not her problem. It took a few years of knowing her to make me realize that she was a well-adjusted person who knew what she wanted and enjoyed what she did to get it.

Posted by: Eep at February 12, 2009 10:44 AM

Worth considering also that the prostitutes usually interviewed for television programs range from (mostly) street walkers to (occasionally) a group of girls working at a joint like the one in this TV show. If you attempted an unbiased view of the restaurant industry by surveying mostly cart vendors and the occasional burger flipper I'm sure you would find similar job satisfaction and life fulfillment.

Posted by: Eep at February 12, 2009 11:36 AM

I can't wait until the episode that features one of their kids trying to come out of the closet (with that many kids, odds are at least one will be gay). Let's see how cute and heartwarming a family they seem, then.

Posted by: jennyb at February 12, 2009 11:41 AM

All I can think of is the last three kids that most like walked upright out of that vagina...

Word, Diablo.
Having sex with her must be like waving a banana around in the Albert Hall!

But seriously, that much pregnancy is physically hard on the woman. My Irish maternal grandmother had 17 kids, and her womb fell out before she was 50.

Posted by: Tarn at February 12, 2009 12:21 PM

My Irish maternal grandmother had 17 kids, and her womb fell out before she was 50.

I think that should have counted as another kid. Or maybe you know, half a kid, just for the effort.

Posted by: stipe42 at February 12, 2009 12:26 PM

Obviously the lessons of your early education have stayed with you: because you've never met a happy, well-adjusted sex trade worker, that means they don't exist? That's some impressive logic, right there.

Posted by: happy hooker at February 12, 2009 12:38 PM

I think that should have counted as another kid. Or maybe you know, half a kid, just for the effort.

Well, I always did wonder about my uncle Paddy....

Posted by: Tarn at February 12, 2009 1:38 PM

Said it before
a vagina ia not a clown car

Posted by: Protoguy at February 12, 2009 5:25 PM

And Vermillion of course sex is very personal and intense... between people who love each other. So are the massages my fiancee and I give each other, but nobody is up in arms about the massage industry, except when they [gasp] pleasure their clients by working inside the pubic triangle. Is masturbation very personal and intense? It MUST be since it involves sexual gratification. You should only masturbate if you're deeply in love with yourself. What kind of sense does that make? These are just hang-ups. They're vestiges of puritanism.

Well, you are the one establishing this "love" requirement. My point is that it is personal regardless of the couple's feelings for each other.

Are you seriously trying to say that sex is so mechanical that it can be separated from emotion? Then why even expect fidelity then? That is basically saying "I totally can fuck whomever I want, but I truly love so-and-so, so it doesn't matter." So if you were to have sex with a man right now, someone whom you do not love, you are saying your fiancee should get over it, because that is just the old fogies talking.

Sex is personal just by the very act of it. The person is naked, vulnerable, coming in contact with another human being on a very deep level, no matter how much they may think it isn't. A massage is clinical not out of design, but out of necessity. Massage therapists et al have very stringent guidelines as to how they operate. If it was just so matter-of-fact, as you posit, then these rules wouldn't be necessary. They would be able to plunge the depths, so to speak, without a care. And I don't know about you, but masturbation is quite personal to some people as well. Spanking the monkey isn't exactly a spectator sport.

Once again, I ask about the matter of rape. We can both agree that, in that situation, rarely are the subjects in love with each other. But if sex is such a construct, a mechanical operation devoid of any connection except what the people put into it, why bother enforcing rape laws with such urgency? Would you seriously argue that a victim's feelings of shame and violation are simply the result of puritanical upbringing? Or, since sex ultimately means nothing, why should they bother resisting at all? Would a truly modernized person, having taken your stance and decided they aren't in love with anyone at the moment, ever say no? If they do, then why? What reason would they have?

I acknowledge there are some people who can make the disconnect. These people can see sex as something to do with someone else to be forgotten later. A naked handshake, if you will. Kudos to them, I suppose. But not everyone is that way, and it isn't as simple as old-fashioned beliefs.

Posted by: Vermillion at February 12, 2009 5:41 PM

Rape is forcing your will onto another person in a violent manner, which makes it the very essence of everything that should be illegal under law. The combination of that fact and the societal stigma and hang ups attached to sex (not to mention these days the health issues involved) are why it is so aggressively prosecuted and punished. Anyone feels violated when any act of violence is committed against them. Have you ever had your car broken into? That doesn't even involve your person, but it's still some creepy shit. I can't imagine having your person violated in any way. It has to destroy your personal map of safety. I think it would be difficult to say which of the psychological issues surrounding the particular personal violation of rape (vs. any other kind of physical or mental abuse) are inherent and which are societal because such an enormous percentage of the country is raised to feel that sex is taboo and possibly evil and shameful.

Frankly yes, I think it is at least partially a societal thing that we can't separate emotional fidelity from sexual fidelity, but the societal forces may well have been born from the very practical standpoint of the issues surrounding free sex (disease, unintentional offspring produced by unrelated couples).

As far as sex being intimate because we're naked... we all used to be naked all the time. I doubt that we've evolved a primal urge for clothing over the time that mankind has worn it. Clothes are put on us when we're young, they feel nice, we get used to them, we wear them for the rest of our lives.

I'm meandering, but basically I'm saying yes, I think the issues surrounding sex are mostly if not entirely societal.

Posted by: Eep at February 13, 2009 11:09 AM

Eep, Yes prostitution is a job, but decidedly not like any other.
I may get fucked in the ass on a daily basis at work, but at least it's just figuratively and I don't spend my evening sitting on an ice pack.
That little I give of myself at work is merely my own professional version of a 'stripper persona', that can never be violated the way a my very real body can.

Posted by: Conorhal at February 13, 2009 11:16 AM

In another lifetime, I may become a sex worker (oh, please) advocate.

The rhetoric is pretty easy to handle. Prostitues are a) exploited victims, enslaved by drugs and childhood sexual abuse, or b) empowered feminists, workers providing a valuable service to the community.

Sometimes one line, sometimes the other, depending on whom they're talking to, and who's cutting the cheques.

The solution is always legalized brothels, and guess who is going to step up to run them? In my city, the majority of advocates are ex-prostitutes, who have grown too old for the game.

Posted by: Janis at February 13, 2009 7:31 PM

Have you ever had your car broken into? That doesn't even involve your person, but it's still some creepy shit. I can't imagine having your person violated in any way.

Exactly. Before the "societal pressures" even come into it, the person is hurt and violated due to another person exerting their will upon them. There is no chance for objection; the criminal took what they wanted and got away, regardless of the victim's feelings or desires. Same thing with rape.

But the question wasn't about the victim's response, but "society's" (namely, that which is represented by the law and courts system). You are arguing that "society" has too many hangups about sex, and that informs their decisions.

The problem is, if the system followed your stance, the personal violation wouldn't come into it. If we took your stance, society shouldn't accord a rape any more attention or consideration as an auto theft. Are your really trying to say that the only reason courts and police investigate rape more strenuously than auto theft is because somebody was scared of some "dirty pillows"? Again I ask: if "societal pressures" were suddenly removed and everyone regarded sex as something mechanical and impersonal, why should the law care any more about a rape as they do an auto theft?

My thing is this: what makes you so sure the societal pressures came first, and that people are somehow enslaved to them? It has been scientifically proven that the human brain makes a decision BEFORE the reasoning areas are activated. This means that a person does something, then rationalizes it. Taking that into account, could it be possible that, instead of "society" shaping human perception of sex, it could be the other way around? Or even a chicken-or-egg situation? And if society was so effective at shaping sexual attitudes, why are there rebels in the first place? Why would we still have discussions about same-sex marriages, considering "society" hasn't exactly welcomed it? Why would there be any prostitutes at all, if the will of "society" was so irresistible? If all it took to get someone to do something was "societal pressure", how come YOU are able to say no?

My point is this: society doesn't make you, me, or these women do squat. Sure, they might have influence, but only that which the individual lets it. Everyone has a limit to how much manipulation they will take. If a person feels that the Quiverful movement is closer to their nature, then that is the way they will go. On the other hand, if the idea repulses them, they will fight (possible to the death) to never end up in that situation. "Society" is a nice scapegoat, but if someone truly feels their way is right, "society" doesn't matter.

Posted by: Vermillion at February 14, 2009 1:03 AM

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but where on Earth does the money come from....even before the series? They had to have a passle of kids before it started. I can't watch them, I saw a few shows and was disgusted, now seeing the commercials for the wedding,ew!

Posted by: DIane D at February 19, 2009 5:46 PM

Talk about being environmentally irresponsible. These people have left the largest global footprint ever. This is so sick. They might be nice people but what about all the resources there family is using up with all these kids and babys.

Posted by: Lori B at February 23, 2009 10:46 PM





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