Pajiba

What is with the porn is funny thing? Am I the only one who looks at the actors and sees damaged children and an almost certain legacy of child abuse? OR am I so pre-Camille Paglia "My Sexuality Is My Own to Exploit So Fuck You!" feminist that I should catch up to the 21st century. The latter? I thought so.

My Name is: no, you're not alone. We're the old fuddy-duddies who recognize that the sex industry is bad for about 99% of those in it and that stripping isn't necessarily always "empowering" for women. It's not hip now, so keep it low.

That's Jenna Jameson. I thought that was a picture of Mickey Rourke in drag. My god she's in bad shape.

The biggest lie that has ever been told to women is that porn is not empowering, it is very empowering. Pussy is the greatest commodity the world has ever known, pussy must be embraced as a tool for change. Ladies of pajiba, the majority of the men here don’t know about women. I know women, I love women, I know what a women will and won’t do, I crave women. You will not find a bigger advocate for women than Pookie.

Pookie: Spoken like a true man. And you're still wrong.

Julie...remind me to show you my 'fast forward porno' impression and my 'midget fuck' impression when next we meet. And bring a diaper or something. Yer gonna pee.

For a minute there I thought you were gonna quote J. Lo's "Pussy" monologue (as seen in Gigli), Pookie.

As long as the attitude still stands that a woman is a slut if she sleeps with more than X number of people and that she will always be considered "less than" if she sells her body for money, then porn is not empowering.
If you're confused on that fact, all you need to do is take a look at the women who have been through the porn wringer and judge whether they used the porn or the porn used them.

Man... I thought you were gonna give out directions to a magical place called Fucktown. I had a picnic basket full of flippity-floppity dildomabobblers and a Super-Soaker filled with looby-doob. I bought a Slip-N-Slide, fer chrissakes...

...and then you catch the Herp-A-Derp.

THAT VIDEO DIDN'T TEACH ME ANYTHING! Post more trailers for this. A ... friend needs some tips.

I came for the porn but I'm staying for the enlightening conversation.

Also...PissBoy? No midgets. I beg of you. That intrigues me and scares me at the same time.

Porn is fine and entertaining and empowering and not hurting anyone... until your daughter, mother or sister does it. Any man that says he's okay with seeing his mother get it up the ass while choking down cock is full of shit.

Of course no one wants to see their daughter, mother or sister doing it. But unfortunately someone's daughter, mother and sister are doing it.

I watch porn for the dialogue.

I watch porn for the dialogue.

Kolby, I heart you so much right now, I'd like to improve some dialogue with you.

The trailer reminded me how hot Ian Somerhalder is. And that his Lost syndication checks must not be as big as I thought.

Frankly, if you get off on watching family members screw, female empowerment through porn is really the least of your problems.

Kayanne - it'll be $12.95 for the pizza. Delivery is free...

Bow chicka wow wow

If everyone only knew just how many women in porn were molested as children/young girls, you'd think differently about this whole empowerment bullshit. In fact, you'd see it in a *completely* different light, I promise you that.

And as a woman, I'll tell you what's "empowering" (what's up with that word, anyway?): my education, my knowledge, my capability, my career, my relationships with others, all kinds of things that don't involve what women do in porn. I'm extremely thankful that getting ready to do my job doesn't involve hot wax, an enema, and either shots of whiskey or a hit of meth. Or both.

All this being said, I've seen the stuff, obviously. But I don't for a second tell myself the lie that they're somehow "empowered" by it. Lord have mercy.

Thanks for nothing SoD, you’ve left me in a pickle with that definition of yours. I didn’t ask you a goddamn thing, I asked Kolby. Kolby, can you give me a more favorable definition of the word family?

Amen. I have watched porn in my day, and there nothing less sexy than that dead look in the actors' eyes. It's fucking depressing. I'd rather read a nice batch of erotica any day.

Actually, Pooks, you asked Tracer. I don't really know how to define family, because I don't think you need to be blood-related to consider a person to be a part of your family. You just have to love that person, and they have to be an important part of your life. They're the folks you depend on.

nothing less sexy than that dead look in the actors' eyes

That could be a turn-on to fetishists. Just saying.

No one wants to see their brothers, fathers or sons in porn either. But I don't think the porn industry if filled with nothing but orphans either. (Although I would believe that many don't have what they would consider a traditional family.)

Porn isn't empowering, it's a business transaction. As a woman, I'll gladly admit I love porn for the entertainment value. It's hilarious, and fun to watch the boys' reactions when you tell them you'd love to watch a little porn with them. I'm not worried about the Jenna Jamesons and Katie Morgans of the world. They make enough money to get out if they want but chose not to because I think they genuinely like their jobs. I do worry about the nameless, faceless internet porn girls who might not have a way out. They are not empowered, they're usually young girls, who are probably not that smart, and have few other options financially.

Ricci will play the nerdy kid’s innocent girlfriend.

Really? I love CR, but isn't this the role she would have played about five years ago? She's not even 30 yet, but this role sounds more Zooey Deschanel than Christina Ricci.

Re the porn thing:

Why is porn funny? Well, why are inbred hillbillies living in tar paper shacks in Appalachia funny? Their parents put them in a bad situation, they never have a real chance to better themselves, and they live in abject poverty. We still laugh at them if there's a good joke to be had. How does a porn actor get better treatment than those folks, or people going through a horrible divorce, or people in prison? Hell, there are decent movie jokes about the Holocaust and 9/11.

News flash: All humor -- all of it -- is based on some form of pain, even if might be only irritation in some situations. Are jokes about porn always funny? Of course not. Do some attempts at porn humor have the potential to cross the line and denigrate women (or men, too)? Of course they do. Can it be mined for a rich vein of character-based humor? In the right hands, of course it can.

this role sounds more Zooey Deschanel than Christina Ricci.

I guess not. Deschanel is virtually the same age as Ricci.

Pookie hearts puddin' cup. A sex shop, really? Wait a minute, you're a broad, right?

Here's the way it goes: not all women who were molested as kids grow up to be in porn. Not at all.

However, it does work in the inverse: a significant percentage of women in porn were molested/sexually abused as either children or teenagers (eg before they could or would give their consent).

This doesn't make their being in porn empowering. It means a lot of things, but not that. Most likely it's the only way they feel they have value--as an orifice, as a means to an end, as a thing. It's the opposite of empowering. Their potential autonomy as a human being was taken from them before they could exercise it. And so they submit to being violated again and again, but figure it's better now because a) they are adults and b) they're being paid for it. And I can't really disagree with that. Thank God they're adults and at least getting paid for it!

But seriously, let's not kid ourselves. With very rare exception, this is something a woman goes into when she feels she doesn't have a lot of other choices. It's not cheeky fun for the woman involved, it's fairly sordid.

Succinct and fantastic Snuggiepants!

There is nothing wrong with being paternalistic or self-righteous, the problem comes when the self-righteous want to preach their morals and values to someone else. Porn is not illegal, society has said that porn is an acceptable form of entertainment. One can pick and chose any industry to protest for having some form of dehumanization attached to it. One day I hope we become a society that says if you don’t like something, don’t fuck with it, but if I like it, don’t fuck with me for liking it.

Another thing no one has mentioned yet is exactly how much money these girls are being paid. The bigger name actresses like Jenna Jameson usually have big contracts and I believe she might even own her own production company. Pookie, you're the expert, is that correct?

But, most just get paid for their work per film and don't see any of the royalties for each dvd or download. It's a lot like the early days of professional sports when athletes had to hold down second or third jobs during the off season while the owners raked in the millions. There is nothing empowering about that.

No, Pookie, I am not a "broad." I am a woman. And Snuggiepants, you said it better than I could. Women in porn tend to be perceived by the people watching them as sexually liberated and completely lacking any inhibitions. Perhaps that is the case for some, as I am not going to assume that all women in porn are somehow "damaged," but for the most part, I think that porn IS a last resort. The sooner people realize how damaging porn can be, not only for those involved, but for those watching it as well, the sooner our attitudes towards sex and women will change for the better.

Oh no he didn't! Motherfucka went to the precipice card, and in broad daylight too. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

It's a reference to Lawrence of Arabia and I started using it when I learned that Dustin hasn't seen the movie yet he runs what began as a movie site. Paternalistic and self-righteous right down to my nomenclature.

Great. Exactly what we need.

Yeah, Nina Hartley's a more solid example, Slim.

What?

No shout-outs for Samantha G?

Yes Austin, you are correct on both counts. Lately there has been a push by the Jamesons and the Morgans to make and distribute their own product. With the advent of the internet and webcams and other computer related products, the individual has over taken what was once controlled by the conglomerate. So now any female with a computer can attach a webcam and make, produce, and sell porn. And with the money she makes, she can now get counseling to find out why she has a psychological need to make porn.

Tracer You'd be wrong. I've seen some softcore stuff I found appealing. In some cases, very softcore. (I've never supported the industry with my money, however.) I don't hate porn, I don't have any strong feelings about it, actually. It exists and like Pookie said, it's not illegal. This is very true! What I am addressing here is the ludicrous notion that women are empowered by being in porn. It's the only thing I've addressed here.

Do you have some reason to assert that most women in porn were not sexually abused before going into that line of work? I'd be curious to hear it.

Pookie Who's fucking with you? I'm disagreeing with your assertion that working in the porn industry is so wonderfully empowering for women. Specifically this:

The biggest lie that has ever been told to women is that porn is not empowering, it is very empowering. Pussy is the greatest commodity the world has ever known, pussy must be embraced as a tool for change. Ladies of pajiba, the majority of the men here don’t know about women. I know women, I love women, I know what a women will and won’t do, I crave women. You will not find a bigger advocate for women than Pookie.

Later you even said that "unfortunately someone's mother, daughter and sister are doing it." If it's so empowering for women, why is it unfortunate if someone's mother, daughter or sister is doing it? It's ok as long as it's not a woman you love, I guess. Because I don't know many men who could watch their daughter up on the pole at all all-nude venue and smile and say "I'm glad she's so empowered and uses her pussy for money!"

Without pornography, there would be many smooth bass riffs out of work...

Pookie " One can pick and chose any industry to protest for having some form
of dehumanization attached to it."

I think I can safely say that I am against dehumanization full stop.

"One day I hope we become a society that says if you don’t like something,
don’t fuck with it, but if I like it, don’t fuck with me for liking it."

I believe you are describing a democracy and the fact that we are having
this conversation says it is working.

Tracer - You may be right, but you don't know it and you can't prove it.

I would try to prove it, but I'm at work and it gives my employer agita when I type in search terms like "Child sexual abuse and the porn industry."

Tracer - Instead, you've decided, "I don't like porn" which lead to, "I would
never do porn" and from that concluded, "Only severely damaged
people would do porn."

I don't like rape. I have never been raped.
Only severely damaged people would rape.

I don't like cookies. I have never had cookies.
Only severely damaged people like cookies.

Quite an assumption on your part there.

Tracer "Your choices aren't appropriate for everybody and you're standing on
the precipice of a real slippery slope when you start assuming they are."

I'm not assuming that. I assume we all have different choices based on our life experiences and opportunities good and bad. Porn is not such a great
path. Do you honestly expect to convince anyone that it is?

Also, I don't think I see porn as immoral per se and I don't think the
actors are bad people. The people who run the industry though? I'm
pretty sure they are not so nice.

Jay Pookie, early in the thread:

The biggest lie that has ever been told to women is that porn is not empowering, it is very empowering.

Pookie, early in the thread

You know waaaaaay better than that. Anyway, the Pookie thing didn't use the word first so it's even more irrelevant.

I wasn't directing that at you specifically, I was speaking in general terms. I didn't say "you still watch," I said "people still watch." Just to clarify.

On a side note - Does anyone else think Dustin threw us a bone (pun intended)
with his original post? Thanks for lining up the hijacking Dustin!

Dammit, I hit the button again too soon.

Jay you didn't ask about who said it first, you just said no one was arguing that it was empowering for women. The Pookie thing is/was.

Don't anyone ever say "The Pookie thing" again. I'm picturing a salivating gelatinous monster with a copy of Juicy Cheerleaders in one claw and a keyboard in the other.

You all can think of me as a thing if it will put me into your neat little conformist box.

Gotdammit, while I was reading the comments in this thread, my boss walked in and said, with no context, "Ok let's do this thing and let's keep it quick and dirty."

I'm scarred for life.

Jay I comprende. Gracias.

But you can’t resist Jay.

Of course you’ve got to explain yourself to them Tracer, you broke a pajiba rule, never disagree with groupthink.

I'm not anti-porn by any means but the only porn I've viewed and actually enjoyed has been made by women for women and generally has nary a man to be found. There is something beautiful and empowering about seeing a woman enjoy sex, but as far as I've been able to see that ain't straight porn. Which, by the way, I think is incredibly sad.
Even the "better" straight porn has lots of look-at-me!-look-at-me! mugging for the camara that gives me a cold feeling in the pit of my stomach when I watch it.
My primary objection to most porn is that it makes sex kind of yucky and awful and that's just so incredibly wrong.

Puddin' do you really think I'm damaging myself by watching porn? I'd love and stay for this chat, but I gotta go to work now. Ya know, that thing I do to earn money so I can afford to buy more porn. I'll be damaging myself later tonight in honor of everyone here.

Snuggiepants, you said you found porn entertaining and pleasurable in certain contexts, what contexts would those be? Because there isn’t any context that does not include those very females that you claim to have been sexually abused. Please don’t tell me you’re one of those females that thinks her farts smell like potpourri?

Well puddin’ cup people are very complex, I would not assume to know anything about someone merely because on occasion they may write some fucked shit here at pajiba. That’s why I get a kick out of certain people here that think they can diagnose a motherfucka by something they wrote.

Me me me BSlim!! Um, through osmosis.

I'm looking at women who did this because it's what they know, because it's where they feel their value (and skill set) lies, and because they are short on other options. All of those things are interrelated, by the way.

If you still don't get it at this point, I can't help you.

Posted by: Snuggiepants the Deathbringer at April 6, 2009 3:34 PM
-------------------------------------------------
Where are you getting that from?

Keep in mind that we are in the era of Girls Gone Wild and "reality" tv where college grads are more than willing to whore out and fuck on some lame cable/network show for 15mins of alleged fame.

I'm not buying it.

BarbadoSlim: A lot of that has to do with the fact that a woman's value as a human being tends to be linked to her sexuality. Many women look for validation by flaunting their bodies. It is a fact. Yes, it is their choice, but our choices are almost always influenced by outside sources.

Posted by: Snuggiepants the Deathbringer at April 6, 2009 3:48 PM

Well, the way I see it, it's all part of the same thing, same attitudes. Women, who have no problem with getting undressed and performing sexually for an audience. Be they college students/cosmetologists/secretaries or welfare recipients. I don't see any proof that a vast majority of them have been sexually molested, like you are declaring here.

I'm going to side with BSlim on that one, I'm afraid. I don't think that the majority girls who appear on Girls Gone Wild and things of that sort are victims of abuse. I think that, for the most part, they just want attention, or to appear sexy and cool and "liberated." After all, nobody wants to be seen as a humourless, prudish feminist. Seriously, though, I think that some of them might have some daddy issues, but to say that they've probably been sexually abused at some point is a pretty big generalization. I still don't agree with it, though.

I think it could be argued that a somewhat significant percentage of women in general have either been sexually assaulted or otherwise abused in some way. Not all, or even most, of these women turn to life as porno stars, strippers, or prostitutes. I agree with Tracer - there are most likely a number of factors that go into the decision to enter the pornographic film business, just as there would be when any important life decision is made. And I highly doubt that every actress in every porno was abused as a young girl. Why is it impossible to think that perhaps they chose their career because that's what they want to do for a living? I guess I just don't see the big deal about porn - if that's what someone has chosen to do with their life, so be it. It doesn't make them a bad person, it doesn't make them ignorant nor does it make them trash. it just makes them willing to do something to pay the bills that other people aren't necessarily willing to do.

Kind of like becoming a lion tamer - only with your clothes off. Most people wouldn't dare do it, and plenty of people would think you were crazy for trying it, but they'd still watch you at work.

"Me me me BSlim!! Um, through osmosis."

Jesus, Pooks - should the two of us ever cross paths, I'm buying you a drink...

"...we are in the era of Girls Gone Wild and "reality" tv where college grads are more than willing to whore out and fuck on some lame cable/network show..."

Jesus, BSlim - should the two of us ever cross paths, I'm buying you one too...

Take what BSlim just said about "reality" television... I think that shit's more degrading than anything - especially given that nowadays, people have made a goddam career out of whoring themselves out on these shows. I mean, fucksake, how many of those Real World/Road Rules dipshits have returned to make complete and total jackasses of themselves year after year? Jesus, there was a lady on there (Beth?) who was OLDER THAN ME participating in that mindless bullshit. Then there's the ones who line up to get friggin' annihilated and actually fight over who's gonna fuck/be BFFs with the likes of Bret Michaels, Flavor Flav, Tila Tequila, New York, and Napalm Vag... Not only do these jackasses make complete and utter fools of themselves publicly, but more often than not, we can tune in and watch them do it all day, motherfucking marathon-style. And the worst thing about it? People line-up to be the next goddam moron. Dipshit adolescents think "reality-star" is a legitimate career choice, that being on I Love Money or Tool Academy is something to aspire to. Granted, once you pop your cherry on film, it's out there forever. Granted, there are many pornographic actors/actresses who have hit absolute rock bottom due to addiction and being taken advantage of. Granted, there are films in that genre that set out to be degrading, disrespectful, and even violent towards women (and in some cases, men). But catch an episode of Rock of Love, and tell me that watching too-drunk-to-stand mothers/daughters who brawl over who gets to fuck an ex-hair metal icon is any worse. "Reality", along with the celebration of greed, stupidity and instant fame is shoved down our goddam throats every friggin' day, and quite frankly, it makes my belly hurt...

I gotta make a dook...

Whoops, that last quote I was responding to was from Kolby, I should have added her name in there.

Fair enough, Snuggiepants. I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I do agree with the majority of what you're saying.

Point me in the direction of the most recent study, My Name Is, and I'd be glad to. I'm just thinking along the lines of common sense here - the odds are against every actress in porn having the exact same background and reasons for getting into their business. Yes, it's certainly possible that many porn stars were sexually abused at some point in their lifetimes, and that their career is serving as a sort of coping mechanism. But to say that is why all porn stars do what they do is going a bit too far in my opinion.

Poor Jenna went and turned into Jocelyn Wildenstein on us.

I thought so too. Egad! There's a real tragedy in the performing arts of "wow, I thought you were pretty and natural looking! Didn't you like that about yourself?"

The thing that all of you are forgetting, and the most relevant piece of information to this debate is this: Abused as a child or not, whether or not they enjoy it, do it for the cash or attention; they are fucking, for money, for you. They are getting paid to do things some people only get to fantasize about. They are choosing to do it, for whatever reasons. Those reasons are their own.

Stop analyzing it, and stop making porn not fun.

... and Kolby just said the same thing. Sorry, Kolby.

But as requested, I just did a search on Pubmed (main resource for scientific articles). I couldn't actually find an article specifically examining sexual abuse with different career choices. There were a few examining 'personal history' of 'sexual deviants' so I'm left to wonder if maybe a lot of these links exist because people are looking for them.
You might be interested to know, however, that I also found a few articles examining the level of childhood sexual abuse amongst physicians, clinicans and nurses. So I guess we have to consider these to be degrading careers as well, now. Right?

My name is for my friends - Ariel Levy's book was specifically about the ways that women are pressured into sex. Dr Melissa Farley is the founder of 'Prostitution Research & Education', whose website states that they are 'offering services to women escaping prostitution' and quotes 'It takes a village to make a prostitute'.

I'm not disrepecting their work in any way, but both have them have a substantial bias. If you can find a peer reviewed study comparing the number of sexual abuse victims in porn versus, say, mental health care, then let me know.

They could have just titled it The Thora Birch Story. Both of her parents have hard core credits on IMDB or IAFD if you're a true cognoscenti but she went mainstream instead of heading into porn.

What the hell happened here? I've been busy watching porn.

Having seen The Annabelle Chong Story, I have to say that she comes across as pretty darn fucked up for all the empowerment she claims it gives her.
I suggest anyone who would like to use her story as an argument for the empowerment of women in porn, should watch the documentary first.
I saw her as a sad, damaged girl who was desperate for attention, and who had talked herself into the idea that she was strong enough.
Maybe I'm wrong, but aside from her issues with gaining acceptance from her family, she seemed hell-bent on destroying herself e.g.
she refused to ever used condoms because she felt sex was "worth dying for".

Soup:

"Poor Jenna went and turned into Jocelyn Wildenstein on us.

Thank god for film.

Posted by: Recondite at April 6, 2009 3:57 PM"

You should be more circumspect.

Recondite,

There was such a long string on this one topic that I just went to the bottom and posted what seemed like an original thought. I guess great minds think alike.

SS