Pajiba

One thing I don't believe I've ever heard/read be addressed is if everyone went vegetarian, wouldn't we not have enough landmass on which to grow the massive amount of plants and crops we would need to feed everyone?

Okay, I'll start. I try to be a locavore as much as possible. This typically means eating food produced in season within about 200 miles of where one lives. It's great from April to early November. I participate in a box scheme that delivers selected veggies to my door from a local organic farm every day from May to October. But I live in Illinois where being a locavore means that one eats turnips three times a day every day for about 5 months. And this brings me to my point: I'm fucking trying hard people, but it's only a matter of time before I rip the eyes out of some sanctimonious person who tut tuts when they see me buy asparagus in January.

I've yet to meet a vegetarian whom I didn't want to assault after five minutes.

I'm guessing you could substitute a lot of people for the vegetarian in that sentence.

CDell, that's a good point. Another is the water required to irrigate certain crops, like rice, so that they will grow. Rice requires a ton on water to grow properly and correctly. I grew up on a farm and am very familiar with this. The other thing is the amount of pesticides, herbicides, and other miscellaneous chemicals needed to produce a high yield crop in large portions on the world. There isn't a lot of arable land left for farming usage. Arable land requires constant crop turnover (i.e. You can't plant the same crop over and over on the same plot of land) because you strip the nutrients and destroy the land. That's what happened to Oklahoma during the Dust Bowl.

There is a lot of work and a lot of pros and cons about farming. It's a crap life to be honest with you.

it's a bit awkward to admit this but I work for a company that supplies whole foods with certain items and ingredients which shall remain nameless. I'll say this, it's almost all a crock of shit. There are different designations such as "organic" "100% organic" "all natural" and so on which in no way mean what the consumer thinks they mean. You might be surprised what these different designations actually mean. All these designations are just products of the FDA and in no way come close to meaning what some granola munching hippie thinks they mean. Yes, we're all going to die. Eat a cheeseburger.

My diet consists entirely of Tabasco-flavored Slim Jims and Capri Suns, so this means absolutely nothing to me.

You should see me on the toilet... Jesus.

Barbado, you wouldn't want to assault me. I'm a veggie (though I eat fish) but it's not for any moral issue. I literally cant eat meat. As a kid I smelled off, raw chicken and the smell made me sick. I cant stand being around raw meat and due some fucktacular dentistry I have none of them meat chewing teeth. I'd like to eat meat but it turns to unpalatable andunswallowable mush

Whole Foods is a racket. Most of their food is shipped in from all corners of the globe just like at any other supermarket. And they're evil. I do have some facts to support that, but I won't bore you with our local politics. I don't know about Trader Joes though. Their buying practices are similar to other chains, but they make no claims to the opposite. Their monthly fliers describe pretty well how they purchase their products, and why they cost less. I don't have a beef with companies who are transparent in their practices, even if I don't agree with them.

But Whole Foods = evil. Like cable company levels of evil.

I am very fortunate to live somewhere with a chain of locally owned grocery stores whose mission is to stock the most local products they can. All of their produce, meat, and seafood is labeled with the specific location of where it came from, and the non-perishable goods state if they're 'home grown' or not, with 'home grown' clearly defined and posted around the store. But at the same time if you want to buy Fruit Loops or Pop Tarts you can do that too. This chain is one of the reasons I will never leave my current city.

Haven't been a vegetarian for many years (mmmmm bacon!), but I was for about 9 years, during and after college.

The people that still fill me with rage to no end are the people who call themselves vegetarians and then eat some sort of animal, such as fish. Really? Are fish are vegetables?

Nadine, if you eat fish you're not a vegetarian. You're a pescatarian. Fish are animals that have to be killed for you to eat them, just like a cow or chicken or any other animal.
But anyway. I am an ovo-lacto vegetarian (I purchase free-run eggs and organic milk) and I swear I am not an asshole, and I have probably tried to reiterate this throughout all of our food discussions. There are veggie assholes and there are meatie assholes. I don't give a shit if other people eat meat, and I honestly don't judge them for it. I ate meat until I was 19 (I am now 26), and I do miss it. I am not a spokesperson for all vegetarian people so I don't really know how sustainable a global veggie diet would be... I just made a decision on my own that I couldn't justify killing someone for my own pleasure, and have stuck to that decision since I made it. It's the only thing that I really believe in so please don't pre-judge me for it. That is all.

What, April; plants don't have feelings too? For shame...

So here's where my irritation comes from: I know probably more vegatarians than beast-eaters. Usually they are fine and understand that they will face limitations in terms of what they will be offered on restaurant menus.
However, the few vegans I am forced to interact with seem to expect that every restaurant and house they visit will be fully equipped to serve them a delicious, multi-course meal and they go into a major huff and tirade at the waiter when that doesn't happen.
You know, if you have chosen to limit your dietary options to some grains and a grape, then bring your own lunch people and stop expecting the rest of us to cook without butter to accommodate you.

Right on Paddy - I had a friend in college who was insistent about throwing club parties at her house - except that she didn't allow meat in her house, at all, period. F that! Who wants to go to a potluck where everybody is forced to eat vegan?!

Funny you came to the same conclusion as my husband and me regarding the universal "icky" smell of natural food stores. We have a great local co-op with wonderful, albeit very PRICEY offerings. Both my husband and I refer to it as the "smelly feet store." Seriously! Why-oh-why is this???

My pajiba nickname (Porkchop) is what two drill sergeants started calling me after I refused the porkchops they were handing out for chow. And it stuck unfortunately. They then asked how I would I have the balls to kill a person if I wouldn't even kill an animal. I replied that a cow has never pointed a weapon at me with bad intentions.

I hate the holier than thou guys that chastise people while they're eating a burger. Eat the burger for all I care, it's a personal choice.

I just eat whatever the fuck I can afford. I make about $400 a month right now, so the folks who tell me I should buy organic or buy local or buy independent or avoid major corporate products or avoid processed food, y'all can fuck off, because you probably make at least four times as much as I do.

I eat a lot of lentils.

Duane: Only 5oz of meat per day is digestible? You are a complete moron. The lesson learned from your post looks like maybe kale kills brain cells.

I mean, if you are going to be a veg, come up with a better reason than that. Really, any other reason will do.

I second the Green Bags. I can keep most of my fruits and veggies for up to a month now.

Not at all true, Sean. My husband is an ultra marathoner, which means that he's insane enough to regularly participate in races that are longer than a marathon. These happen approximately monthly and he runs anywhere from 31-100 miles in each one. His most recent one was a 24 hour "fun run" where you run as long as you can in 24 hours. He went 85 miles. He also regularly commutes to work by foot or 36" unicycle, and also participates in cycling events (on one wheel) that range from 50-100 miles. Next weekend he will be running a 100k race, and in four weeks he will be unicylcing 104 miles in an event. Needless to say, his caloric needs are astronomical. Despite all of this, he has been eating an essentially vegan diet for about a year now. He changed his eating habits after much research (he's a data and numbers geek, so research is his forte) about how eating a high plant protein diet is much less stressful on the body than a high meat protein diet, and therefore lets it perform better. No, he's not a body builder, his activity is mostly aerobic, but here's an article on a vegan body builder,

http://wweek.com/editorial/3436/11241/

and here's another one on the current best ultramarathoner in the world, who follows a strict vegan diet.

http://vegetarian.about.com/b/2006/07/23/scott-jurek-vegan-marathoner.htm.

It's a short article, but you can Google around for more on him. It's worthwhile just to see how super human he is.

Whew! Sorry for the length. That's it for my small soap box. I personally am not a vegetarian/vegan and never will be because I find no greater pleasure than seeing a full, cooked pig in front of me, cutting open the skin and digging in. I highly recommend it for those who haven't tried it. But I do have to cook like a vegan at home, something I am grudgingly adjusting to.

Tracer:

You have a point there. My neighbour is horrified at my compost heap. He's of the "beautiful green lawn" persuasion, and somehow he manages to convey to us that we are letting down the nighbourhood with our pile of rotting veggies, our "lawn" with sprawling clover patches (and lovely bluebells) and of course, the yellow spots where the dogs pee.

What I’m saying is: If you have a farmer’s market, go there. There’s no huge corporate machine behind them, the food actually does taste better, and it’s outside, so the smell isn’t heinous.

Wrong. Root's Market outside Lancaster, PA is surrounded by Amish and farms and Amish farms. It usually smells like shit. But the produce is pretty good, and I bought some homemade cheese from a smelly Amish guy that was delicious.

Now that I think about it, the Amish are just hippies, but with an intense love for God and Jesus instead of the Grateful Dead and Phish.

Ariel: I have two males. It's not that the urine kills the grass. It's that they like to pee in the same spot and that attracts the racoons and skunks and other critters at night (including the odd suburban coyote) and they all want to pee over another animal's scent and at a certain point the grass just gives up.
By the way, the night creatures are also attracted to the compost heap which is a huge problem

"and the comments section will go absolutely apoplectic..."

Christ, people, try to be less predictable now n'again, yes?

This film isn't about vegetarianism at all and I was hoping for a more diverse discussion. I'm all for local food; this is an issue I confess I was almost completely oblivious to until fairly recently, but has been on my mind since picking up The Omnivore's Dilemma a few years ago.

I just read Barbara Kingsolver's Animal, Vegetable, Miracle and have signed up for a farm veggie share (I hope it won't be all turnips!! But can we grow a lot more stuff in North Carolina I guess). My local grocery chain (Harris Teeter what what!) is at least kind enough to label the country origin of all its produce, which probably doesn't mean much to your average shopper, but usually keeps me from buying Peruvian asparagus in August. But I don't think farmer's markets are the perfect solution either, because I go to our big local one, and you can buy potatoes, tomatoes, peaches, whatever you like almost any time of year and guess what! That shit don't grow around here! So obviously you still have to have your wits about you whenever you're a consumer.

Two images I try to keep in mind to make mindful decisions about buying locally: 1) Barbara Kingsolver's "vegetannual," a fictional plant that illustrates the growing season for East Coast vegetables and helps you remember what should be in season in your area, and 2) everything you buy really and truly is a "vote" and in a democracy, it's your duty, your part of the covenant that if you're going to vote, you know who or what you're voting for. End rant.

Have we no South Park watchers to identify the smell at Whole Foods Market"

It's called smug, my fellow pajibans. It smells ALMOST as good as my farts.

One thing I don't believe I've ever heard/read be addressed is if everyone went vegetarian, wouldn't we not have enough landmass on which to grow the massive amount of plants and crops we would need to feed everyone?

It takes far more land to grow the crops to feed the animals that feed us than it would to grow crops to feed us directly. This is actually a concern with the growing economies of India and China. As the 2 billion people in these countries get richer and start to demand more meat the stress on the food supplies will increase not decrease.

Vegetarians and the like are generally fairly personal in their habits and do not try to stuff their beliefs down my throat. When I do run across a militant vegan or vegetarian though I pretty much want to wrap my fist in bacon and shove it down his throat. Do NOT try to take my pork chop from me.

I have no idea about smelly Whole Foods and Trader Joe's. Move to a better neighborhood if you store smells.

Whole Foods is a complete rip off. 10% better produce at 50-100% higher prices. But leave Trader Joe's out of it. Most of the stuff I buy there is equal to or cheaper in price than Kroger's.

I will stop eating meat when you pry my tasty, perfectly grilled, brilliantly seasoned striploin from my cold, dead hands.

I've no problem with vegetarians or vegans. Except those who did it for moral reasons, get all sanctimonious when I tell them they're an idiot and storm away in a huff while wearing $300.00 leather shoes.

aprilee:

An open compost heap (in which you dump your beggie and fruit waste without a cover) will absolutely attract other animals because most wild animals are foragers. That's why you seal the cover on your garbage when you put it out: they will go through anything looking for edibles (One adorable racoon in my nighbourhood goes systematically through every recycling bin looking for yoghurt and then climbs up into our back garden elm tree to eat it, dropping the container without warning). But you can get closed compost systems (we're switching to one) that have a cover and you either turn it over or tumble it every few days. There should be aeration holes in it to allow air in but not allow animals in. The only problem with them is that unless you buy a giant one, they often fill up before you get to use the compost and then you have to find an alternate location for your left overs.

I have to say, I usually skip WF due to the prices, but I volunteer at my local co-op and if you volunteer you get a discount so I am eating pretty good right now. Also, no knocking Trader Joe's, they are awesome here and smell just fine, whiners.

I live in the suburbs of Chicago therefore, excluding a few summer months, my grocery shopping is limited to chain stores.

1. My Whole Foods smells delicious.
2. Their produce is way tastier compared with other stores.

I was raised in Europe and grew up on a farm and I can honestly compare the strawberries I buy at Whole Foods to the strawberries I picked and ate off of my grandmother's land. Being a vegetarian, veggies and fruits are my staple so I'll gladly spend $20 a week extra on flavorful groceries instead of the "produce" for sale at Dominick's or Jewel. My notions about "organic" and "natural" might not be correct, but I go by my taste buds and not the labels.

cdell,

I think you're forgetting about the massive amounts of land, crops, and water that go into growing the feed for all the animals we eat--not to mention the waste. Humans eating the crops is a lot more efficient than pushing the crops through the digestive systems of cows and pigs first.

Amen Hurp Durp.

Agreed, Hurp Durp.

The problem isn't carnivores, vegetarians, OR vegans (had to put the vegans in there as they seem to be getting a lot of hate around here). It's the mass-production of food, period.

Self-righteousness is a trait that runs through all people. If it's not someone's diet that they'll get all sanctimonious about then it'll be their religion, politics, or music and movies (Pajibans).

Personally, I'm a vegetarian who indulges in milk products and the occasional egg, and my girlfriend is a vegan. I never get how people totally don't care if you're a vegetarian, but get all huffy with vegans. We never pressure people to convert to our diets. The more for me, the better (as we make a killer vegan carrot cake)! At her last job, my girlfriend's co-workers didn't even know that she didn't eat meat. Maybe, it's like atheism, though? People get offended because you go one step too far for their comfort. It's a personal choice, that others shouldn't take personally. Just because we don't eat meat doesn't mean we make any judgments about those who do. Please do us the same courtesy!

One of the great things about living in the Bay Area or so close to Berkeley is the health food nuts ensure a bunch of farmers markets and organic food will be readily available.

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Since my mom is currently a hyper-allergic invalid who lives on organic brown rice and lentils, I have come to embrace hippie foods. I love Whole Paycheck, I just can't afford them most of the time.
I'm gluten and dairy-free by necessity, so I don't need yet another food restriction imposed for the fun of it. I don't need more Catholic guilt by listening to my roommate's argument that it's unethical to support the meat industry's current exploitation of God's creation.

I'd really like to eat locally, but I can't really afford the $40/week for the cheapest CSA in town. And since our farmer's market is a tourist draw...that's not really a viable option. When the stand by my house is open, I can buy from them, but it's still priced for the upper-middle class people who pervade my town. Until the economy improves and I can get a real job, it's the Asian market for me.

I've only been to the Whole Foods in West Hartford. I approve of good beer by the bottle.

if you want to know facts about food and health and shit, you should read THE CHINA STUDY by T. Colin Campbell, PhD. Unlike most of the completely useless information that gets thrown around by the multigazillion dollar food industry to get people to buy their shite, it was written by a scientist who has no vested interest in what food products you buy. It's just facts. Basically this mind-bogglingly huge study of health and food was done in China, it's literally unparalleled and unique and is the biggest study of its kind. All that information is collected and distilled into this book.

My working title is: Some Shit I Made Up About France. Don't do it well, do it schnell.

Ahahahhahaha! That's a great title. I might have to borrow that when it comes time for me to have a thesis.

Aprileee, yeah, that's what I've been living on. It baffles me that people could dedicate so much of their lives to convincing people to eat a certain way when the majority of us simply can't afford to.

@CDell
That is a really good point especially with the future increase in population along with the demands of the existing population.
Optimistically, with a more vegetable diet,along with whole grains, I notice I eat less than I do when I eat process grains mingle with a higher ratio of meat than vegetables. I also dispose of waste more too, which in turns give me more energy to move. When I move I drink water and that temporary distracts me from snacking.
Also, just imagining, since I don't have access to do the math, but I presume that that land being use to raise animals takes up arguably just as much land as vegetables would if it became the substitute. If vegetarianism do become the mainstream consumption style, I do agree that it will use more land- also someone mention the demand of water being used would be a huge problem. Irrigation related invention would have to come first for this to be possible too.