Pajiba

The "plus" sized model looks like a woman. The fashion model looks like a fuckin girl. That's the best way i can describe it I suppose. And I prefer women. Women have self-respect. Women are confident. THAT is hot.

Meat belongs on bones!!

My office chair really should come with a seat belt. I'll using some packing tape instead.

Okay, I'm fastened in.

And on a serious note: the '14 year old anorexic = hot' is not just an aesthetic issue. Ever tried to fuck a too-skinny girl? All those angles flying about all over the place. Minor bruising is an optmistic outcome.

PissBoy is 100% correct.

Check out the comments on the fashionista site - maybe I'm reading it wrong after only one cup of coffee this morning, but you'd think that all the pretty skinny girls are the victims in today's society.

WTF.

Those arms, those are scary. But I think we all know as long as models are hangers for clothes, nothing is going to change. Watch Project Runway-designers cannot even contemplate clothes that drape over a normal human frame.

This is a fascinating juxtaposition. The only problem is that human beings seem to be incapable of a rational conversation about body types and expectations. Watch as this comment thread devolves into a series of veiled (or open) jabs at fat women, thin women, and men who prefer one or the other.
I'm sorry. I just love Pajiba and this is a subject that never goes well. I hate to watch it unfold here in my safe, snarky place.

The fashion industry appears to have as a goal the normalization of body dysmorphia - a constant battle between our actual shapes and an ideal that few people can or should reach. This is not a case of suggesting people get fit, because that would allow for a variety of size ideals, most of which would not involve the extreme thinness required to be a fashion model. Rather, it is an insistence on a beauty standard that few people can meet, which keeps us in a perpetual state of anxiety that fosters a willingness to buy more and more products to "fix" us - or does if one doesn't work very hard to discard that narrative.

And this is not only an issue for women. The more super-ripped men are presented in media as the most desirous (ignoring entirely the huge amount of time and effort it takes to maintain such muscular definition), the more men are becoming dissatisfied with their own, normal bodies.

That being said, if your body tends to run toward skinny or you have the genetics to build and maintain muscle without that being your life's work, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, either. But don't think the narrative doesn't effect you, because you may find that strangers regard you with some hostility for presenting as the ideal they cannot achieve.

The whole thing is insidious as hell.

The fashion industry doesn't care what you think. The fashion industry knows what sells, ergo, the fashion industry knows you're lying.

Having said that ... I don't get the focus on the skinny models. You'd think every model was skin and bones, but the VS-type models (usually, lingerie and swimsuit) usually look pretty curvy. Brooklyn Decker ain't skinny, and if you go old school I'm thinking of the likes of Cindy Crawford. But from the howling that erupts on this subject you'd think Kate Moss was the only model there was for teen girls to project their body images from.

OK, that plus sized model is very pretty, but she is overweight. The regular model is definitely anorexic sized skinny.

What I want to know is, "Where are the REGULAR sized models?" There has to be something between too thin and plus sized. I'm 5'5" tall and 130 lbs. I wear a regular size 6 or 8. Shouldn't that be the standard model size?

I buy a lot of clothes online. I don't want to see clothes for me (5'5" tall, 130 lbs) modeled on someone 6'2" tall and 110 lbs. I can't tell from the photo how it's going to fit a normal person.

Oh, and I was in Lane Bryant once to buy something for a friend, and the store used one of those regular (i.e. extra thin) models in their huge blowup photos in their store modeling their plus sized clothes. Let me tell you how ridiculous that looked. That's right plus sized clothes weren't even modeled by plus sized models in the plus sized store or catalog.

"50% of women wear a size 14 or larger, but most standard clothing outlets cater to sizes 14 or smaller."

This makes me wonder why on Earth any clothing store would ever want to eliminate 50% of their potential customer base out of the equation to begin with- especially in a rotten economic climate. The fashion industry is the only one that I know of that manages to prosper despite deliberately not giving customers what they want or need. I really cannot understand why clothing lines insist that the problem is with the customers for not universally having the build of Olive Oyl, aside perhaps from making it easier for clothing designers to cut clothes that don't have to factor in such annoying features as "hips", "breasts" and "buttocks". They are outright demanding the public conform to unrealistic standards. In any other industry, a manufacturer that was so out-of-touch with reality wouldn't be praised for their work...they'd be unemployed.

Show me a clothing store that has the same fashion lines and styles accessible to ALL women regardless of size or body type and take extra care not to make anyone feel shame for who they are. Make doubly sure they do not behave as though they're the ones doing people the big favor by making clothes that can actually be worn, because they're not. They're running a business. They're supposed to make people feel good about purchasing their product. Making someone feel shame is a very poor marketing strategy. Especially where the shame is nothing but a fabricated social stigma.

If someone were to do all that, I'll show you someone who will have a legion of clientele and more money than they will ever know what to do with.

What katyv said.

Also, people keep using the word "regular". I do not think it means what they think it means.

Third what katyv said. I know people like to put people in a box, overweight, too skinny. Whatever, but how the hell do you know that from looking at picture. WTF? And normal and average are different. In the end I feel lucky b/c I work out and eat well for health, but I like my body. And that's super cool if you do too, but if you don't I honestly don't care. I truly wish I could pass this trait onto the majority of the world.

Show me a clothing store that has the same fashion lines and styles accessible to ALL women regardless of size or body type and take extra care not to make anyone feel shame for who they are.

Dress Barn does that, mostly for office attire, and they are doing okay. They aren't high fashion, but they also aren't high priced, so they fill a certain niche. Most of their stores have both regular and plus-sized clothes on different sides of the same store, but in some places they are separate stores located near each other. I'd like them better if their sales staff wasn't forced to operate as if they are on commission when they are only getting an hourly wage.

All I'm going to say is that she looks deliciously bendy.

I think "normal" is the problem and that normal is a moving target. Medically-defined standards are the only valid measurement. We can talk about what is common in our culture, or in other cultures (by which measurement westerners are often fat), and what expectations we have of ourselves, but the facts are that models are meant to be living hangers; North Americans all used to be thinner; most people get past their adolescent hormone-induced insanity on this issue; some people have other issues and would regardless of whatever the cultural beauty standard is; and, as a group, North Americans are in a collective denial about what is to be considered healthy weight. If you are comfortable in your skin, more power to you, but that doesn’t mean that you are a healthy weight as defined by medical professionals. It also doesn’t automatically mean that you are unhealthy, or that you should be made to feel bad about your appearance.

I was raised by a woman who thought Audrey Hepburn was the pinnacle of female perfection. She was held up as the example of how to walk in heels (I’m serious), “Audrey Hepburn walks like this. Audrey Hepburn stands like this. (Audrey Hepburn who admitted to having food issues derived from the horrible time her family experienced during WWII.) The Dowager Julien is naturally built like Cher (her three daughters are definitely not) and is obsessed with weight. As such, I have some issues of my own and spent part of Christmas holidays showing old pictures of myself to Mr. Julien and saying, “I had been given to understand I was incredibly fat” when indeed I had been simply overweight. But I was overweight, and while that may be “normal” in the culture I live in, it does not make me any less overweight. I’m working on how I was trained to feel about it. It is a very hard thing to overcome: I was trained to believe I am fat, but I am technically “fat”, but I’m not supposed to hate myself for it. It’s a pickle. A pickle which has about 16 calories.

Brooklyn Decker, Cindy Crawford, and VS models are all very thin. They have larger breasts and hips than a pre-adolescent runway model, but rest assured that they are tiny people, and few women can achieve that figure.

Whats the number one killer of woman in the US?? Heart disease. Start exercising ladies. There's no reason to be "plus sized". The fashion industry is doing you a favor. Get skinny, get healthy FAT..i mean FAST!

aren't they both normal, really? i mean, people come in all shapes and sizes. i think what we're talking about here is the idealized form. for our society, at this time and place, it matters not that many people are overweight -- the ideal is still to be thinner. and ideals, not norms, sell.

@blorft It depends how overweight. More than a little does definitely represent bad health, regardless of the fact that anorexia poses a more acute danger.

The caption did not say that the "skinny" model meets the anorexia criteria, just that a lot of them do. I know a woman who is super-model skinny because she naturally can't put on weight - her doctor has her on a special diet to try and bulk her up a little.

The "skinny" model could be perfectly healthy, just with a great metabolism and commitment to exercise. She could also be that thin because has an eating disorder, or have high cholestrol and at risk for heart disease. You can't tell by looking at her.

The "fat" model could be borderline obese, or she could also be perfectly healthy, with great blood pressure, perfect cholesterol, and a wonderful exercise regimen that gives her a good cardiovascular workout. You can't tell by looking at her.

Bottom line, you cannot make judgements about a person's health just by the way they look, except at the extreme ends of the weight spectrum.

Lies, damned lies, and all that.

Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.

In 2002, the average woman weighed about 25 pounds more than the average woman in 1960. 20 years ago, heroin-chic was the height of fashion. Models aren't getting skinnier, the rest of us are getting heavier.

Most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.

Yeah, and most pro-athletes meet the BMI criteria for being overweight. BMI doesn't handle outliers well.

Fun Fact: The fashion model also posed in this position; unfortunately, her body was unable to sustain the weight redistribution and her spine snapped in half. RIP Fashion Model

At least we're not being asshole pigs though, right? Attacking a woman because of her size would be super douchbaggery.

Anyway, thank goodness Plus-Model Mag was here to let women everywhere see that they don't need to compare themselves to unreasonable standards of beauty. Instead, they can compare themselves to a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Amazonian.

Oh stop with the "runway models don't look like real women". Of course they don't! They aren't supposed to! Runway models are there to wear clothes. They are walking hangers. They need to have as little "body" as possible so that the lines and flow of the fabric can be seen. Sure, they often have pretty faces, but why on earth do we act like they are the pinnacle of feminine beauty?

Actually, models are real women (or girls, in some cases). They are simply much thinner (for whatever reason) than a majority of women. We hold models up as a beauty ideal because they are the presented to us in ads for clothing, beauty products, jewelry, cars, etc. with the underlying message that their attractiveness is one we should strive for.* This is also why you have 25 year old women advertising anti-wrinkle creams. Youth has always held attraction (Shakespeare's sonnets come to mind), and beauty is beauty for a reason. The point being made in this campaign (aside from "please buy our magazine that is targeted at larger women") is that the standard of beauty in most advertising has narrowed to exclude most body types. Sort of hard to dispute that.

*And if this was not the case, then the diet industry would not be such a behemoth. They also do not care what we think. They have products to sell, too.

Reba,

OK, they may not care what we think, but they sure know HOW we think. Which came first, the product or the demand?

Posted by: blorft at January 12, 2012 11:30 AM

Yeah, that's kinda what I meant.

There's only, like, one time I ever -- EVER, cause I like a curvy girl -- wished a woman looked a little more waifish. I was watching the sex scene in "Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" and thinking, "Wait, in the book Lisbeth is flat chested but Rooney has TITS!"

Mmmm, tits.

Coco tits, sugar tits, frosted tits.

Yes, I like boobsalot.

My penis was unprepared for that last picture.

I have an ad for a waffle iron, anikitty .Read into that what you will.

@Pissboy:

Correction: The fashion model looks like a 10 year-old BOY. Girls are even more recognizable in their femininity.

Way to go annikitty. That's quite an achievement. Oh, how I wish I could have you mentor my niece.

...gluttony and poor health (overweight model)...

Seriously? I just looked at her website and, clothed, she doesn't look any bigger than Christina Hendricks. Jesus Christ, gluttony and poor health? What an incredible statement to make.

Portfolio

And since my linking ability sucks, here it is again:

http://www.zharkova.com/index.php?view=category&catid=24

PaddyDog--With the fervor of the newly converted, I am happy to share what I'm doing.

Wow. So much posting. A little more on the nit-picky aspect of this campaign...sizes in the industry have changed. When I was 15, 5'3" and 108 pounds, I wore a size 8. 20 years later, I still wear a size 8 - even though I've added 30 pounds.

What Sara Tonin said. A thousand times, what Sara Tonin said.

my girl friend would be considered a +size model. she looks a lot like the woman here. and i think she is the most beautiful woman i have met, and i have met my fair share of beautiful women; +size and not. i think the classic renaissance curves are dead fucking sexy. and the creepy twig woman and please stay in the shadows. my 2 cents.
p

@Craig

I stand with you, you are totally correct in your assessments. Those ladies that are mad at you I guarantee you most of them are overweight. Me personally, I like big women, I like the way they handle their business. I’m not saying a small chick can’t handle her business, I just prefer girls on the larger size. I like the picture of those two girls getting close, that’s some hot stuff. I like the way that big girl is cupping that small broad's ass. I also like the way the small girl has slid up between the big girl's legs. Mmmmmm damn, I would love to take both of them on.

And I'm feelin kinda bad for ol Dustin: Between this article and last week's Catherine Bach-fest, dud cannot catch a break.

"healthy and a good candidate for procreation."

I'm getting a t shirt with that on it. It's killer.

Klingonfree, I think I didn't get something here...

@klingonfree-a perky fucking voice has told me "that's obese" for 86 days. How I relish showing that damn thing. It's not lying in my case but I feel your frustration.

Linny hit the nail on the head earlier. This post was fun to read and the pictures are interesting, but ultimately posts like this always and invariably devolve into judgment.
I think the reason the topic inflames us all is because it turns into a discussion (usually veiled) of what is attractive. What do we like to look at? What are we sexually attracted to? Then we start casting around facts and figures and aphormisms that discredit the beauty / sex appeal / health / happiness of fat women, thin women, and the men who like them. Why do we feel the need to prove that our preferred body type is superior in some way? Do we experience better sex if we can denigrate other people's partners? Or do we feel more confident and sexy if we convince ourselves that the "other" body type is less desirable for x, y, and z reasons?
I can't stand this conversation.
It makes me feel ugly inside and out.

It is so nice to see my body!!!!!!!!!! On the larger gal. It was like looking into a mirror. All the curves and some of the cushion. Makes me feel better about my body and the fact that my problem areas could be worse.

Also, the point above about the VS models reminded me of an interview Adriana Lima just gave about how she prepares, eating-wise, for the annual VS fashion show:

"Lima drinks a gallon of water a day [during a three-week training period.] For nine days before the show, she will drink only protein shakes - "no solids". The concoctions include powdered egg. Two days before the show, she will abstain from the daily gallon of water, and "just drink normally". Then, 12 hours before the show, she will stop drinking entirely."

During that whole period of time, she works out twice a day. Make no mistake -- that is disordered eating, even if it is not long-term. No doubt she is a naturally thin woman, and I am not speculating as to her overall health. It's just further reinforcement that what we're seeing even in what looks like real life, without the mask of careful soft lighting and Photoshop, comes via some pretty intense "training" that is not possible for most people.

I have to say I am disappointed in most of the people who cOmmented on this, and in turn the author. As a woman who weighs in under what my medical weight for my hight, I am insulted by the comments calling the fashion model a girl and the conclusion of the article. I understand that the hostile attitude is out if defense, but how do you expect yourself to be taken seriously if you are doing exactly what you are displeased with? You might be being a little hypocritical

Can't we just appreciate the fact that two naked ladies are hugging?

Wow! When the early comments began piling up this morning, I assumed it would turn into a shitshow and I couldn't bear to look. I'm pleased to see it's a pretty thoughtful back and forth. Well, save for Pookie.

Posted by: Dustin Rowles at January 12, 2012 5:02 PM

_________

Hey Rowles, I’ll be the first to admit that my farts don’t smell like Potpourri. But don’t think for one second that yours do. Look, you want to talk about society’s obsession with weight as it pertains to women, fine, then do it. But don’t sit up here and act like my comments are somehow bad for business, not when you got a picture of a woman totally naked and provocatively bent over wearing her best “F**k Me Shoes” and with her mouth wide open.

You remind me of a group of women recently that walked around naked talking about they want to be taken more seriously, as if by showing the public your tits and ass the public suddenly will have its come to Jesus moment.

Or PETA, when it gets some sexy young woman to walk around naked in fur. God forbid PETA ask some middle aged woman to do the naked fur walk.

You want me to take this issue seriously? Well then present it to me in a serious manner, otherwise, pipe down.

Fuck you Pajiba. EVERY SINGLE WOMAN WITH A VAGINA IS A REAL FUCKING WOMAN. Doesn't matter how much they fucking weigh or what they look like. Fuck this place.

To whomever mentioned Christina Hendricks -

Look, I've seen her in person. She is NOT big. She's curvy - busty - but at the same time, she has a smaller frame than you would think.

I'm about 5'6" and probably 145lbs. At the time I saw her, I was maybe 10lbs lighter, and she looked no bigger than I do - although, our weight is distributed differently (which is a nice way of saying that her boobs eclipse mine). She didn't appear to be all that much taller than me, either.

I think she gets tagged with being larger for two reasons: 1) she's on a show with mostly petite women, and appears to not only be heavier, but also taller than most of them, and 2) she's in an industry with mostly petite/thin women. She stands out.

Working within the film industry, it's really hard to be a gal who is not super skinny. And I will never be super skinny, not if I want to be healthy. When I've gotten down to my lowest weight, which is about 120lbs - incidentally, what I weighed in 6th grade - I look sick. I have no actual muscle-tone. And, I should mention, that weight has only ever been reached after serious bouts of depression that have brought on near anorexia (not as a means to look thinner, but simply because I lose my appetite when I'm that upset). Sadly, even at 120lbs, I would probably be told that I was too fat for this industry. I'm never not going to have hips, and never not going to have my ass (even when thinner), nor these shoulders, etc, etc.

One would hope that I'd be judged on the merits of my good work and talent...that's just not the case in a lot of areas of the industry.

@Lindsey with an "e"
@admin

Yesssss!!! People need to start forgetting about weight, BMI, and clothing sizes. They're just numbers. It's all about fitness.

If people would be less focused on achieving a certain size or weight and more focused on things like cutting a minute off their mile time, doing a few more pull ups than the previous week, or lifting more weight than the last time they lifted, they would be setting and achieving absolutely realistic goals. In the process, one gains confidence and becomes far more fit and healthy, and I can speak to this from experience. Also, aesthetically pleasing does not always equal healthy. I'm a pretty well proportioned person, but I hardly have a six pack. Nonetheless, I find that I can lift more than a lot of much bigger guys who focus on lifting to look good because I keep functional strength and fitness as my goal.

The human body is a high performance machine that comes in all shapes and sizes, and people should treat it as such.

And if we're all going to comment on the women in the pictures, I do prefer the "thicker" one, but just in this case (you can't even see the smaller one's face!). Limiting yourself to just one body type is ridiculous. I've met plenty of pretty ladies from all areas of the spectrum :)

Uh, you can totally determine a person's health based on appearance...are you high or something?

The fashion industry doesn't care what you think. The fashion industry knows what sells, ergo, the fashion industry knows you're lying.

Thank you, , . (It's always an odd sentence with you, dude)

OK, that plus sized model is very pretty, but she is overweight. The regular model is definitely anorexic sized skinny.
What I want to know is, "Where are the REGULAR sized models?"

THANK YOU!

I never said they cared what we think. I said they bank on us trying to reach an impossible ideal, which they created for that very purpose.

I don't think that's quite the true dynamic here. Everyone is always looking for something insidious, and mostly a way that it's not our own faults, but it is. It's almost always about money and human nature. Yeah, they could be working, all of them together, in some mass cabal of destroying women's egos so that they can try to pick them up again with their "miracle" products, but the same truth that holds for everything else works here: We're all vain.

Do you really think the Miracle Bra made an entire industry because Victoria's Secret started out by destroying women's self image? You're saying that the obsession with boobs started in the 90s?

We all want to look great and we won't buy products displayed by people WE think are inferior, even if WE don't see it consciously.

The fashion industry is no more capable of working together than our government is, yet people still try to place the blame on the industry when it's US who are to blame. We buy the stuff they sell, and we respond quicker and more passionately to the things we want - what we want to be, what we want to have, not who we are or what we have now. It's about 'becoming'. Whether we know we can reach that goal we set or not, we still hope for it and reach for it.

The fashion industry does marketing research just like every other major company or industry. They respond to that research just like ABC or McDonald's does. Do you really think that fashion houses want to make us feel insecure and worthless? Of course not, they want us to feel beautiful and presenting a false image to get you to buy something only to feel cheated when you get home with your purchase flies in the face of any marketing research ever done. There is no way they want that. They want us to want their products and they want to frame them in the most pleasing way possible and market research, I'm sure, shows that we respond to our fantasy self image, not our reality self image.

You can be mad that they only seem to trot out the plus sized models when they're doing a story about body image and the industry, but the blame is on us. We don't respond to so-called 'plus sized', we respond to our own messed up ideals of beauty. The fashion industry didn't create this, our entire culture is to blame and our entire culture hinges on what we want. It's a giant feedback loop and we're stuck in the noise we created.

The only way I can see this being an industry problem is with the designers themselves. They live and work with these alien waifs every day and they design for them. They hire them, they groom them, they even declare publicly that they won't design for larger models or their clothes don't look good on larger models. But that isn't the industry, it's individuals within the industry flexing their own egos and their own prejudices. Or they simply do think their clothes look best on skinny models.

I'm still waiting for how this is somehow my fault. Us middle aged white guys are the bane of all, apparently. For the record, I like skinny girls, I like regular girls and I like some so-called "plus" sized girls, within reason. But mostly if you're not overly obsessed with your body image, whoever you blame, I find you much more attractive than the alternative.

All that said, I cringe whenever there's an argument over women's weight, because dammit, overweight is overweight and it is often unhealthy and yeah, unattractive. I'm not talking about "plus sized" like the model up there, I'm not talking about curves or 'regular' sized women. I'm talking about the people (not just women) who can't fit in a movie theater seat. I'm talking about the people who sit next to me on a plane, too large to fit in their seat, so large that I can't rest my arm on the armrest because it can't be put down because their legs are too fat. I'm talking about wheezing mouth breathing because your larynx is being crushed by fat. There is a thing as too much, and all the nice "don't hurt no one's feelings" sentiments in the world won't change that. This "everyone should feel good about their bodies" is fine, as long as we realize that feeling good at 300lbs is merely hiding from the truth that you need either self-control or medical help.

No, I don't care how happy you are with your huge self, it's a lie you tell yourself and the rest of the world. Do I think everyone should be thin? Of course not. Unrealistic. But the idea that it's all okay is just as destructive in its way as the "shame on you fatty" crowd.

As for the models, those two women are the body types they get. The plus model will never be the waif and the waif will never be as big as the plus model. There's not much wrong with either, unless of course, the plus model is stuffing it in so she can stay on that coveted plus model runway...that's not healthy.

Wait, is the fashion industry NOT influenced by the designers who only design for waif-thin women? If that's the case, where are the other high fashion shows? The ones with average sized models? I'd like to see those.

There are worse things than being fat or too skinny. Stupidity, bigotry, hatred, etc. It is a long list.

Let's get back to just being snarky, that is way more fun.

protoguy,

I don't see how you can blame "us" over the fashion industry if it's all one big feedback loop. Seems like both parties contribute to a feedback loop. The images we see in our daily life contribute to our concept of what is the desirable body for our group. It takes advantage of our primate brain's awareness of social hierarchies. It is in this context, that the focus groups then tease out what we supposedly want based on a small selection of choices. That doesn't excuse them, though. Just as our bodies evolved to respond positively to sweet things, and junk food merchants have pumped their goods with all the right chemicals that we "want" to make us buy their products. Taking advantage of that doesn't make them blameless.

Also, It's always interesting to me how much people seem to love to criticize obese people for their "lack of self control," but we laugh off other serious addictions all the time. Their lack of self control is comedic. You don't hear a lot of vitriolic disgust when it comes to alcoholics or drug addicts. Even extreme cases, like a Charlie Sheen, does not elicit the immense volume of disgust a mildly obese person just existing somewhere where you can see them does. True, an obese person makes it uncomfortable on a plane (how terrible for you), but no one is going to run over you kid, because they're driving under the influence of donuts.

the sad thing is it is SOOOO easy to be healthy and keep a correct body weight while being fit, happy and healthy.
we have become such a sick sad culture where gorging ourselves has become a source of comfort.
we complain about ever escalating health care costs while letting our bodies rot from the inside.
the mind boggling devastation that comes from being even a little overweight is well documented yet most continue to super size it on a daily basis.
the funny thing is so many people have given up smoking yet the devastation of obesity makes lung cancer look like a picnic
have some pride for christs sake

John G. - My comment was mostly based on the idea that it's the evil industry manipulating us into hating our bodies and therefore buying their products.

And I criticize people for being useless drunks or crackheads all the time. I definitely remember getting assrammed over my comments about Amy Winehouse. Do standards differ if we're talking about celebrities or only celebrities we like?

I'm saying that our buying choices, our reactions to advertising and promotion - those things drive the industry, not the other way around. Yes, we are flooded with imagery every day, but not in some evil plan to befuddle us, but because retailers and those who live off them are desperate to know exactly what we want and spend MILLIONS of dollars to find that out. What's the point of marketing research if they then ignore it?

Which is more likely, to work out some impossible joint conspiracy within an industry populated by fickle 'artists' and fashion mavens to manipulate us into liking what they want us to like, or finding out what we like and giving it to us? People give other people too much credit. Its hard enough for designers to get their shit to the runway, much less manage their part in some giant cross industry conspiracy. No, it's easier and safer to blame someone else for what we do to ourselves.

I've been involved with someone who has a weight problem. She's had it as long as I've known her and I sympathize with her situation and was as supportive as anyone would want, but I also saw how often she sabotaged herself, starving herself and exercising only to dive into a big bag of M&Ms later. It's true that she had a difficult time getting her weight down, but it's also true that she was lying to herself about why she was heavy. Do I blame her or think she's a failure? No, but you can't ignore the truth that's there just because it makes you feel better to do so.

And as I said, 300lbs is not just curvy. It's either put down the M&Ms or medical help. It sounds like you fall into the latter category, Reba (If you were referring to my post). Is that not the reality of your situation? Or are you mad at me because I dared call someone fat and not heavy or obese or plus sized? Pitty patting around words seems to be part of the problem here. We vilify the model for being too skinny, vilify the men and women who prefer slim over curvy, vilify the industry over our own complicity.

No one's crying over calling the skinny girl bad things - mostly because it's safe to criticize skinny people I guess - what do they care? They're thin and happy right? Not likely.

The comments are TL;DR, but I'm sure it's been mentioned. I'm ALL for "thicker" models. These anorexic looking girls seriously gross me out, and that's because you don't look healthy. I'm about healthy and fit, not thin vs fat.

What people should be fighting for is to be okay with your body, but make sure you are also healthy. I don't want to hurt feelings, but it's not okay to be obese, because you are more than likely not healthy and making your body work twice as hard, and so hard sometimes that it poops out.

That's what I wish they would focus on more. Health.

And the airplane comment was meant to illustrate extreme weight problems, not my discomfort with them. It was just a recent example I used instead of making shit up.

But while we're on the subject (and yes I know seats are smaller than ever), it IS very annoying and uncomfortable and frustrating when I have to crowd into a plane with fat passengers struggling to claim seats, to find that all the empty seats left mean that I am going to have to sit on 60% of MY seat because my co-passenger is taking 140%. I am not being unreasonable to think I should be able to put my tray table down without worrying about pinching my neighbor's belly fat. I should be able to reach the button to recline my seat without having to reach behind my shoulder because my neighbor's legs are too fat to allow it to come down. I should be able to read my book without Miss This is My Body Size having full body apneac spasms rocking my seat. Any doctor will tell you that fat-induced sleep apnea is deadly, not something people of that "body size" need to endure to be happy with themselves. Babies can't really help that their ears get blocked, they're babies, but no, that second bag of chips you asked for and that second glass of red wine - adults can choose to not.

I know it isn't easy, I know it's VERY hard sometimes, but excusing obesity (happy?) by saying it's your body size is bullshit. Some people are large, tall and bulky, and will always be so. That is a body type. Some people inherit gramma's butt and can't make it smaller. That's called being a Kardashian and it's genetics. Some people have medical or emotional issues that keep them from getting to a healthy weight, that is a health/psychology issue. And some people ARE lazy and DO eat too much damn food and get too little exercise. People are fat and lazy. People overindulge and have little or no self-control. Tough shit if saying so makes you cringe. My saying so doesn't mean I said YOU are fat. That's for you to decide I suppose, but the world will judge you for it whether you're lazy or have an endocrine disorder.

I have been a little overweight all my life and I fully admit that it's because I enjoy eating and hate exercise. Maybe it's easier for me to admit since I never bumped over to full-on fat. I do know that once I hit 200 I did something about it.

After watching Eddie Izzard in Marathon Man, I decided to start jogging again. On Day Two of my new regime, my legs felt as if someone had driven a stake neatly through the top of each calf. I walked down stairs like a crab for two weeks and hobbled on the breezeway at school while everyone stared at me.

Yesterday, I ran five miles.

No matter how often I run, no matter how stretched and warmed-up I am, the first two miles are always the worst. In fact, I marvel at the mental gymnastics required to talk myself through the full five miles much more than the fact that my cankles will carry me that distance. Lindsey with an e is right: Forget about pleasing others. Find some physical activity that makes you feel like Sigourney Weaver in Aliens and kick some ass. (literally and figuratively; I'm training for the PajIron Man myself.)

If you're fat then go to the fucking gym.

You know what´s too fucking funny? When everyone approaches this subject, purely and exclusively focusing on their own little experiences and preferences, and then generalizing them and calling everyone else an asshole, or fat, or "not a woman". That´s real entertainment, let me tell you.

"I'm training for the PajIron Man myself."

Gahdamnit, Stinky, I spent five minutes feverishly searching this site trying to see where I could register for this event. I hate me.

You know, once upon a time in history the plus sized model's body was prized and desirable and the fashion model's body would have been considered unattractive, of low social standing, and unhealthy. When you look at the art work of the greats, do you see a lot of fashion model types, or full figured types? Enough said.

Also, any women who are offended that size 14 is also unhealthy and should not be the ideal are probably fat themselves.

Having been on both sides of the debate now (though I'm definitely not overweight), I can say that I feel much sexier having curves because I'm a woman, not a little girl. I've birthed 3 kids in 3 years and I'm proud to finally have hips and an ass. No one wants to fuck a stick. I don't think there is anything wrong with being skinny, I felt amazing when I was 115 (and I'm 5'8") but there is nothing wrong with curves either. I wish more women would understand this. And, at the end of the day, men find it most attractive when you can carry yourself with poise, honor, self-respect and pride. THAT is sexy.

Come the fuck on with this shit. The big girl needs to get into a gym, and stop eating twinkies. I hate the blatant gen pop stupidity that can only argue by using the most hyperbolic and extreme examples.

That big girl is too big - the other model - though we can't see much of her, doesn't look toned at all, like many 'thin' models do.

Oh, yeah, we need more fat pigs masquerading as normal. I'll take skinny every time.

As a man, I get frustrated with the double-standard. Like society isn't telling men that they all have to look like Ryan Gosling with our shirts off too. Bottom-line, I think health, and realistic expectations should be the goal. The girl on the left is pretty skinny, and looks unhealthy. The girl on the right is average, but not necessarily healthy either. My girlfriend falls somewhere in the middle, eats a well rounded diet, and exercises regularly(but not excessively), and I think she's gorgeous.

My problem with the dialog is that overweight women want to be told that they're attractive just the way they are, because like all Americans, men and women, they want everything without doing any work for it. I'd love for people to tell me that as well, but it ain't going to happen, and I'm never going to look like Ryan Gosling. But it doesn't mean I should just eat whatever I want and stop taking care of myself. We should all exercise, and eat better, and accept that whatever we look like at the end of the day is who we are, and stop comparing yourself to people who 1) are photoshoped, and 2) Are paid to do nothing but be "attractive", we'd all look that that if that's all we had to do all day.

The problem isn't that size 14 is considered overweight...it IS. The problem is when size 8 is. Saying that women who are too skinny shouldn't be the goal is correct, but that doesn't that all overweight women are now healthy. Just cause Obama is president doesn't mean there is no longer racism...

Umm, I'm very thin and I am very confident. I'm a real Woman who eats. This is just another way to put down one group in order to feel better about another. Obnoxious.

Gross generalizations are just that - GROSS. Humans are by definition different from each other, and a visual look, especially of just a photo is not sufficient to assess health. What we like to look at and what feels best are almost never the same in REAL LIFE.

EWP,

You know you're like the 20th person to make this comment.

(sigh)

I feel like we go through this exact same debate every six months here. Each time we never get anywhere.

Dustin, if your intent was to "stir the pot" you clearly succeeded. As a woman who has looked like the thin model in the photo above most of my adult life thanks to genetics, I find your "Fun Fact" quite disappointing.

By the way, Pookie - I am so with you on those shoes. They are killer.

John G., or should I say FAT; that's a pretty massive false equivalent you're trying to pass off here.

Maybe you should just eat less and go to the gym. Start smoking too, so that you can relax a little at the end of the day...and have a drink, it sounds like you could use one.

Just, you know, not the whole bottle.

@John G
"And your 'preference' for anorexic women is not 'your choice' but something you've been programmed with."

Wow, I'm so glad that you know me better than I know myself! That should come in useful if I ever forget my phone number or my favorite pizza toppings! You misread what I wrote, as I said it's NOT my choice, but simply how I am. And I didn't say 'anorexic' either, just skinny.

Except you Craig, you are just the worst.

And being smelly or yell-talking on a plane as counter to being too large for a seat... Are you saying you can be 'not' fat if you tried to? Although I don't drink and shower regularly, and I don't really talk at all on a flight, those are all things I can change with little effort.

@Protoguy
You "don't drink and shower regularly"? Do you drink and drive regularly? Or, is it you don't drink and you don't shower? (In which case you might be a bit noisome to sit next to on a flight, even if you don't talk much.)

I know, THIS coming from somebody called "Stinky."

I never drink and shower. C'mon man. That's just reckless.

Well, I meant, like, instantaneously, or at least a couple of hours.

We can't help what we lust for. Some guys lust for BBWs. Some lust for tiny women. Me, I lust for a sane woman my age who knows how to carry her own baggage. Maybe lust isn't the right word there. I lust after a cute brunette with big eyes and a great butt. jus sayin

I don't like the comment they make about 'Society' continuing to revere dangerously thin bodies. I don't know a single person, male or female of any age or ethnic background, who prefers superskinny women to average-sized. I think there's more of a problem with the fashion industry continuing to strive for superskinny models than there is for society calling for that.

As a skinny dude, I like skinny girls. SKINNY girls, not anorexic ones. Curvy women may not be my type, but I'm very capable of appreciating their beauty (i.e. Christina Hendricks).

Can we all just agree, at least, to never trust a big butt and a smile?

Okay I'm just gonna call it: Neither woman is ridiculously attractive/ Why? Because neither one of them is in good shape. Since when did you have to accept that women are "attractive because they are overweight? The woman who is overweight (even if it's the norm) is just as unfit as the woman who is rail thin. Is everyone going to be athletic? no. but since when do I have to be forced to think that because the national average is to be fat that I am being the asshole for not liking it?

I didn't say Christina Hendricks was big, I said the model, in clothes, didn't look any bigger than Christina Hendricks. Knee jerk reaction much?

@John G.
and I think it's funny when people need to feel better than other people, so they point out how great and different from everyone they are.

Is that what I was doing? I assumed when I said "everyone" that it included myself, especially since I had taken part in the discussion from the beginning. Sounds like you´re eager to play butthurt.

I look forward to a similar story about men.

@Kristin It could be John Goodman cupping DJ Qualls´ass or something.