Pajiba

Or that the sky wizard needs his followers to defend his/her good name from the non-followers...

I wish atheism was catching, like vampirism.

I'm not religious, I'm a spiritual person

Just shoot me. That's even worse. Not to mention unoriginal.

Eh...me, I just go with "agnostic". I don't pretend to know everything, and people who do claim to know the answers (religious and atheistic zealots alike) annoy me. I do think if there is a higher power, s/he's not a moralistic prick who wants folks to kill other folks in their name...but that's about as much as I'd bet the farm on.

Michael Emerson in a miniseries about early America and religion? Count me in.

How any one person can say with confidence and faith that their religion, whether inherited or chosen, is the TRUE religion is beyond me.

The naivete is too much for me, and further, the arrogance to then say that all other religions are bogus and therefore heretical and therefore every single one of its followers condemned to hell? Sorry, too much ego spun into that for me.

And then there's the church. From an altar of sacrifice to a money and power machine. Does every church simply ignore the story of Jesus' tirade in the church when he found it taken over by money-changers? Or do they simply do with the story what they do with every story in their book? Ignore it if it doesn't fit in their lifestyle. Theologically make it apply to something else or some other religion.

Which brings me to one last point. How many religions are there? Even in Christianity? How many times has the bible been re-written and by whom? A king? Directed by a pope? Translated by who? Yours is the correct one because your parents dragged you to church every Sunday?

Every single religion out there. Every one, is a whittled and bastardized version of the one they claim to follow. Every bible, quran, talmud, all altered, edited, translated. And then you have every follower, disciple, priest or nun taking that altered unreality and altering it further. Taking the parts they like or agree with and throwing out the parts they don't like or don't seem to fit in their lifestyle.

Seriously, one part of the bible says to stone a person to death for this crime or that sin and another says to love your fellow man as if he were your son or father. Turn the other cheek but take that damn eye! God is love, but here, you MUST tell the fat man in the dress your deepest darkest secrets or God won't hear it or absolve you for it.

And all this would be fine. I could live in your stupid little fantasy world(s) except for one thing: None of them seem to be able to say the same about me or each other. I'm sure there are some religions or churches whose practice is to stay out of politics, out of private lives, out of schools, if only for respect for the fact that not everyone is Roman Catholic Apostolic, or Seventh Day Adventist, or Orthodox Hebrew.

That's the final arrogance and the one that turns me off off off to religion and sadly to say (much to my own personal regret, sadness, anger at myself) makes me like a person less, trust them less, believe in their mental health less and certainly never ever want them dictating policy, law or custom.

I really like Buddhism. I remember taking an eastern religious philosophy class; my prof showed a video of some Buddhist Monks who address everyone who ventures there(to the himilayas): "From what great tradition do you come?" Beautiful religion, and very open-minded (unlike most of the others).

However, whenever I try to meditate I fall asleep. I could become a vegetarian, personally, but I think my meat and potatoes husband would die of a heart attack. And I certainly will not give up alcohol. Religion fail!

I'm a happy agnostic, and hoping that my son doesn't drink any kool-aid (difficult discussions about sin etc.) But I'm willing to let him explore if he wants to.

/lapsed episcopalian

RAR I don't like religion RAR gods are bullshit.

/ranted enough on this subject for one lifetime.

I don't think some of you understand what "religious literacy" means. It has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with knowledge. It's like approaching religion as myth or philosophy. Not just one religion over another, but all religions. If you don't know what people believe, and why they believe it, you can't communicate with them. You can't broker deals for peace or even trade.

Ranting and raving about how religion and faith is corrupted or unhealthy doesn't do you any good. It doesn't do anybody any good. It just creates tension and war (for proof: read a history book). Only by understanding religions can you possibly be free to deal with the world and its myriad complexities. Belief isn't necessary.

To my fellow atheists/agnostics: The world is religious, that isn't changing any time soon. Let's get off our high horses and be open-minded. Otherwise, we're just pots calling the kettles "black."

Now, that isn't to say by being religiously literate you allow bigots, racists, and other haters to use religion to keep people down. That shit's wrong always, but if you don't know your enemy, you can't beat them. I think Sun Tzu said something like that. He was a Taoist.

Oh! And thanks, Cindy, I didn't know this mini-series even existed, but I'll be sure to watch it now. You truly are doing God's work.

my friend is a Unitarian reverend. she is the only person keeping me from wanting to set Religion on fire, especially in this political climate.

people twist and pervert religion until it is unrecognizable. then people go off killing one another in the name of god.

faith is fine. just don't be a dick about it. this jackass actually said that jesus would have wanted that tennessee guy's house to burn.

the people who are screaming about jesus the loudest tend to be dicks. the people who just go about doing their own religious thing and not shoving it in your face? those are people i can respect.

i agree with what you said in some respects, robp. i think atheists have blind faith that there is no god, just as christians have blind faith that there is. that's why i like the wishy washiness of being "agnostic." it's like "eh, maybe. show me something and i might be willing to believe, but for now, i am a parishioner at the Church of Don't Be A Dick. my christian friend who feels the need to marry within his religion. that's cool. he's not being a dick. that fool who wanted to burn qu'rans in the name of the lord? that guy was a dick.

that said, i will watch anything with michael emerson in it.

I agree with RobP in that I am of the mind that knowledge is power and the key to kindness and tolerance. I'm not looking to be a part of some religion, but rather part of humanity. There's so much anger out there these days' much of it seems to be misplaced, misquoted and misunderstood religion.

Wif, we have indeed looked into the Unitarian church and found information as you said - exploration of all sorts of religions. For right now though, we're going with the family education program.

also, the anger in my previous comment stems from my continuing sadness/anger at islamophobia. one of my best friends is muslim (non practicing) and he is one of the best kind-hearted people on earth. a lot of the people screaming about islamofascism, whether if they believe it or if they are using it for political purposes, aren't worthy of taking a crap in my friend's toilet.

Let's put it this way: if there IS a god, how come Jessica Alba keeps getting movies that aren't hardcore porn?
Ah? Where's your mighty Sky Wizard now?
Posted by: BarbadoSlim

Where indeed...

I've faced the question of what religion or faith I follow and in the past few years have honestly been able to answer that I don't know what the hell I am. The closest definition of what I believe in would be a loosely defined version of deism (much like my favorite founding fathers, Thomas J and Benjamin F.). I do believe, however, that religious literacy is essential knowledge that all persons regardless of what faith you are or are not and will definitely be watching this next week.

One of my favorite comedians, Patton Oswalt, has a bit that summarizes more or less how I feel about religion. As an agnostic/lapsed Lutheran, I find it pretty damn hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

Yeah, sorry. Sore subject. Too many years of Catholic school and people telling me they're open-minded while claiming with all certainty that this is a Christian nation (There's the literacy relevance). That "In God We Trust" on our money somehow proves it (again, herpaderp). That the founding fathers were all Christians -_-.
Like most things of this nature there is no amount of discussion, evidence, scholarly tomes by intellectual giants, etc., that will convince them of the blinding truth of even these small things. Forget about the big things like evolution and morality. They believe what they believe. That blind faith seems to extend well beyond simple faith in God, to faith in men of the cloth, to politicians who profess that faith to belief that presidential candidates are better based on their faith. To lack of faith in science, in government, in members of other religions.
I believe it's the basis for a lot of this so-called intellectual incuriousity. The belief that being intellectual is a negative, that there's such a thing as too much knowledge. Palinism. The idea that somehow simple home-spun knowledge will always trump science and intellectual mumbo-jumbo. Like a diabetic working for PETA.

Oh, I'm all about being a thoughtful person. Questioning the nature of the universe, being open to different viewpoints. But in my experience, people who call themselves "spiritual" are the ones who treat religion like a smorgasbord -- crucifix in the bathroom? Buddha on the table? Observe the pagan solstice? Why not? -- which itself is indicative of a certain ethos, to which they will not own up. In other words, they're just as dogmatic as Catholics in their take-what-you-want schtick, but get to pretend they're open-minded.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm out of razor blades.

@Jana Jerusalem:

It's amazing, isn't it? One guy I knew in uni told me, completely straight faced with no hint of irony that he'd been "in charge of converting Catholics to Christianity" in his old church.

But then again this was the (not especially attractive, to be kind) guy who boasted to me that he'd 'converted' a lesbian without worrying about:
a) the likeliness of this having happened.
b) what the benefit of this was.

okay. god is not real folks. as human beings, were all born fundamentally insane. weve created travesties like religion, economics, politics, and katherine heigl(FUCK YOU) to cope with our insanity

15) No hard drink of any type is allowed in this diet.

Did you not know that when religious people do good things in the name of their religion it is absolutely definitely not because of their religion? After all non-religious people do good things all the time.
However, all the bad things religious people have done in the name of their religion are because of their religion. Take the Crusades. Bad Religion. I bet those priests laypeople professional soldiers doing the killing and the looting were only ever in it out of piety.*

p.s. this reverses itself when it comes to Atheists, natch. Those killing priests as 'cockroaches'... ...only in it for the communism. Nothing to do with them being atheists. This is fair, because apart from the times that they do, they generally don't say they are doing it 'in the name of Atheism'.
This does not mean that you can only say that Atheism has caused you to be good/better than Religiots only in instances where you said 'in the name of Atheism'. That would be an absurd single standard.

*Disclaimer: this represents the general state of some of the public discourse, the above opinions are not attributed to any persons living or dead. Except Bill Maher. And Richard Dawkins.

And no-one is asking you to. All , said in his/her original comment was that it's a pity that in these discussions no one pays any attention to the moral things done by the faithful, just the loud annoying blowhards.

Why do you think you've been asked to ignore or gloss over anything?

Most Americans are as ignorant about religion (including their own claimed religious affiliation) as they are about every other kind of history.

I wouldn't mind, except many of them act as if they know what they're talking about and when you suggest that they don't know it all, they get all assholish about it. It's like talking about politics. Most people get their political info from a very narrow group of sources that tend to reinforce (rather than challenge) what they already believe, so when confronted with different viewpoints, they are often extremely hostile to them. Most people's understanding of religion (in the U.S., anyway) is arrived at the same way.

Most of the time, I don't initiate discussions of religion for the very reasons you might suspect. I'm atheist; I don't particularly enjoy debating religion, but if someone forces me to (until it gets old and I leave or attempt to change the subject), I don't see any reason to hold back. The problem with a lot of religious people is they reserve the right to speak candidly about other people's beliefs (or lack of) but as soon as someone speaks frankly about THEIR beliefs and the shortcomings or contradictions, they get all mad. They expect you to sit there politely while they pontificate on their opinions of other beliefs/traditions, in often insulting and patronizing language, but the moment you give them the same treatment, they refuse to reciprocate. It's why polite discussion of religion is usually impossible. People love to dish it out, but they can't take it.

I realize you don't have to believe that Jesus was a semi-diety who rose from the dead and all that -- you don't have to believe in Buddha or Muhammad or Vishnu or any diety -- to follow the example they set. But if all acts of humanity and charity and selflessness you perform spring from your intrinisic goodness, then why doesn't the goodness in you allow for the possibility that other people who perform smiliar acts who just happen to be religious do so for similarly selfless motives? Why you gotta hate on them if you're so good all by yourself?

Not saying you can't call bullshit on bullshit. Just wondering why you have to paint EVERY believer as a moron and an asshole. The self-superiority of atheists is as off-putting as smug religious types who are convinced everyone but them is going to hell.

Yes, thanks for the notice, Cindy. I will be DVRing this and checking it out.

I have to wish you good luck on your quest to explore faith with your children. May I make a suggestion, regarding your search? I tend to agree with your decision not to attend services on all sides while you're looking, but you may want to actually take some time and speak to priests of various belief systems. I got lucky in High School, we had a really fantastic world religions course that led us from Cathedrals to a Hindu Temple to a mosque, a buddhist monastery and a half dozen others. Even if you don't come to any conclusions, it's worthwhile just to see the art and beauty that come from different viewpoints.

I was raised Anglican, by parents who really do believe and genuinely try to live the spirit of Christianity instead of just the trappings. They're not perfect, but at least they try.

Well, being a cynic from the age of about five, I managed Church until high school when I more or less lost the faith. After exploring a fairly wide variety of other belief systems I came the long way back to Christianity, deciding to actually do a degree in Theology and Philosophy to see if there were any answers to my questions.

For anyone else who has done the same, you already know the end result: there aren't. Four thousand or so years of organized study, debate and contemplation and no one has indubitable answers. As a side note, my school doubles as a multi-denominational seminary. I can't imagine how they actually manage to turn out priests and ministers year after year with all those books in the library.

So I think of myself as a recovering Christian. I managed to educate myself right out of what little faith I had. Now I study religion from a different perspective, trying to find the cracks and the reasons that it fails. I'd like to found my own someday, based around logic, reason and the basic concept that we all exist to learn, improve ourselves and evolve our way back towards the Godhead.

Either that or I'll just go back to my roots and start worshipping Woden again. Say what you will about the Norse, their versions of the afterlife trump most of the others I've ever come across.

BUT, in spite of my impatience (and dislike) of organized religion, I am still in awe of people who are intelligent, rational and still manage to hold on to their faith. I recognize that I am simply not that strong.

I will say one thing regarding religious intolerance: there are as many paths to God (or the Divine, or Enlightenment, etc) as there are people to walk them. Anyone who says different is either lying or misinformed.

The trouble, ALL the trouble, with religion is the same as with politics, the same as with war, the same as with everything else: People. We just kind of suck. We're primitive, xenophobic, irrational and credulous.

That, and one little piece of wisdom: there are only two sins - Selfishness and Ignorance. Everything can be boiled down to one, the other or both together. But they don't become mortal sins until you add the word Willful to the front.

Sorry. Don't usually get so deep on a long weekend. This post kind of pushed some buttons. Can we go back to speculating on Dwayne Johnson's career now?

And as long as we replace those folks with dribbly people so unembarrassed by their ignorance that they write sentences like that... blah blah blah.. in levels of stupidity, deliberate misrepresenation and childish faux-naive faux-idiocy, then we will definitely always have problems.
Posted by: Ender at October 11, 2010 5:07 AM

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I have misrepresented nothing and your ad-hominem rant just proves my point. There's just no way to talk rationally with someone who believes in magic beings from the sky.

“We are all functioning at a small fraction of our capacity to live fully in its total meaning of loving, caring, creating and adventuring. Consequently, the actualizing of our potential can become the most exciting adventure of our lifetime.” – Herbert Ottto

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