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Refuting Tolkien: “Even Gollum May Have Something Yet To Do”

By Steven Lloyd Wilson | Posted Under Think Pieces | Comments (50)



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“There are two novels that can transform a bookish 14-year-kld’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish daydream that can lead to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood in which large chunks of the day are spent inventing ways to make real life more like a fantasy novel. The other is a book about orcs.” -Raj Patel

In 1978, Michael Moorcock wrote an article called “Epic Pooh,” which lambasted many components of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings along with other authors who followed in his footsteps. The title of the article derives from Moorcock’s opinion that Tolkien was moralistic comfort food in the vein of Winnie the Pooh but cast in an epic mold for palatability. It remains a controversial piece, to say the least.

I read The Lord of the Rings the first time when I was nine years old. My parents bought The Fellowship of the Ring for me as a present and I plowed through it in absolute wonder. It was the first fantasy novel of any sort that I had ever read. In fact, it was the first actual series I had ever read, and even though the book said something about a “trilogy” on the cover, I didn’t know what that meant and didn’t think to ask until I was down to 20 pages left and was increasingly concerned about how they were going to get the Ring across the entire other half of the map in the scant pages allotted to the Fellowship. When I found out that there were two more books, my preadolescent mind was blown.

Over the next decade, I devoured all of the standard fantasy fare that followed from that starting point, including the endless piles of dreadfully derivative thousand page novels that at times seemed to merely cut and paste The Lord of the Rings, replace names, remove songs, and dumb down the prose. I came across that Moorcock article at some point in those years and loathed it with the perfect teenage logic that anything that criticizes what I love must be wrong. Two things occurred to temper that conclusion.

First, Peter Jackson’s adaptations hit theaters. The Fellowship of the Ring was a decent enough attempt, not changing a terrible amount other than the complete excision of Tom Bombadil, whose chapter I usually skimmed at best on rereads anyway. But the second and third films were affronts to the source material, making changes that went explicitly against what I saw as the point of the novels. A battle of a few pages is expanded to be over half a film. The Scouring of the Shire is cut entirely. And I realized that those films were everything Moorcock thought was wrong with the novels.

Second, I read George R.R. Martin’s A Game of Thrones, the first of many fantasy novels that I would go on to read that nibbled at the foundations of Tolkien, not so much by pointing out flaws in The Lord of the Rings as demonstrating elements that I never quite noticed were missing. Although one could write many pages about the differences between Martin and Tolkien, and many have, there were two main marks that the series made: it made violence have consequences and it made heroes irrelevant.

Joe Abercrombie’s The First Law series is in many ways similar to Martin’s, what with the swearing and violence and general darkness. But he chooses to leave in much of the magic that Martin stripped out of his world, retaining truly inhuman evil but countering it not with the wise goodness of Gandalf, but merely another inhuman evil. It sneaks up on you over the course of the novels, the slow realization that the only alternative to being devoured is to cede all control to a manipulator and that all the heroic fictions we have are the cynical creations of those who would control us.

Jacqueline Carey takes that notion one step further in her two book piece The Sundering, which has been unfairly maligned, the criticisms masking a simply and unreasonable complaint that they’re not Kushiel novels. She tells a story in direct analog to The Lord of the Rings, both creating a rich and original world, while essentially retelling the events of Tolkien from the point of view of the enemy. And the particular tact that she takes is brilliant, and vintage Carey, writing the Sauron analog as the demi-god of passion in this particular world, cast out by the gods of intellect as base and uncivilized. Elves are presented as amoral corrupters of men, their immortality gained at the price of passion (and it makes perfect sense once stated that of course the elves don’t like sex, otherwise Middle Earth would be full of the immortal buggers). Tolkien, for all the beauty of his world, was still a late Victorian in spirit, which left a glaring blind spot in his mythos.

None of this is to argue against Tolkien. His novels are still lush creations, magnificent works of originality. That there are counterpoints to be made by other novels is not a criticism so much as an acknowledgement of the nature of art. It is always a moving target, it is a process of society not a destination.

“We speak of stories ending, when in truth it is we who end. The stories go on and on.” -Jacqueline Carey

Steven Lloyd Wilson is a hopeless romantic and the last scion of Norse warriors and the forbidden elder gods. His novel, ramblings, and assorted fictions coalesce at www.burningviolin.com. You can email him here.









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Comments

Aaaaaand my crush on SLW deepens. Nicely done.
Wait... Elves don't like sex?
{sound of 1000 fantasies dying}

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at March 2, 2011 3:45 PM

So.... after all that rambling, we're left with, Moorcock missed the point of Tolkien. You don't agree with Jackson's interpretation (what a news flash!). And Tolkien was a prude.

What exactly does all this have to do with "refuting Tolkien"?

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 2, 2011 3:47 PM

Heh..Moorcock

...

I'm sorry.

Posted by: Kargoyle at March 2, 2011 3:47 PM

I have always thought that Tolkien was an outstanding creator of worlds and mythology but a poor teller of stories. Even when I was a young kid in the throws of fantasy nerdom I thought the books were dry and static. I remember reading pages and pages of prose describing the genealogical background of characters yet not actually caring about any of the characters themselves. The books seemed too Victorian, too divorced from actual human behavior to engage me.

I read some of the Tolkien knock-offs for awhile, but once George RR Martin came around, bringing with him a new brand of grittier fantasy, I was done with that business. Not to discredit Tolkien, I still think he was an unparalleled creator of mythology, which still fascinates me. I just can't read any of his actual stories.

Posted by: elgarcon at March 2, 2011 3:48 PM

I came to Tolkien late, a year or so before the movie series came out. And while I loved it (and still do), it was clear that it was written for younger minds to devour and dream. It's an adventure tale, full of wonder and danger that end with a better world because of the hardships. Like a fairy tale, the world is better because of it.

I would disagree, however, with you saying that Martin's series is anything like Tolkien's. Sure, there's the magic, medieval setting in a different world and there's knights and queens and monsters. But to me, the series that closest comes to Martin's is not from fantasy, but science fiction. It's Frank Herbert's Dune series.

Both have noble houses vying for control of an empire. Both have intrigue and deception and espionage as much as battles. But where I think they really find commonality is in their villains. Whereas Tolkien's villains (Sauron, the Orcs, Gollum) are creatures far removed from his noble humans or elves or dwarves, Herbert and Martin's villains are the same level and same power as their heroes. It's not some dark force from without corrupting and destroying the world. It's the same greed, lust for power and wrath that we share in this world. The noble heroes do as dark deeds as the villains can do the brave.

Sauron may be mighty and terrifying. But he cannot compare with a Baron Harkonnen or a Cersei Lannister -- since we're more likely to meet real life versions of the latter far easier than any of the former.

Posted by: Fredo at March 2, 2011 3:55 PM

Nice piece (as always), sir.

I love the books, and I enjoyed the films as well. However, I did always felt a little bit of a disconnect with Tolkien's characters.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 2, 2011 3:57 PM

Which brings me back to my theory that being the progenitor (of an art form, genre, style or area of study) does not necessarily mean you create the foremost example of its works. The act of invention was the aaccomplishment; the act of expanding on the innovation often relies on others; for example, Ernest Hemingway, Jackson Pollock and Sigmund Freud. Georges Seurat is the exception that proves the rule.


Posted by: Mrs. Julien at March 2, 2011 3:59 PM

feel, that is.

In contrast, I'm almost halfway through Martin's Feast For Crows, and these characters and their fates have constantly haunted my waking thoughts as I've been reading the books. That's not to say they are superior; as you point out, they are simply different.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 2, 2011 4:00 PM

Problem is, the scouring of the shire is anti-climactic and poorly written. The only thing that happens is we get the death of Wormtongue and Saruman.

Elementary screenwriting dictates that when its over... its over. To have a small battle after the big battle doesn't work.

Posted by: maka at March 2, 2011 4:02 PM

"Although one could write many pages about the differences between Martin and Tolkien, and many have, there were two main marks that the series made: it made violence have consequences and it made heroes irrelevant."


Could you explain how Martin makes violence have consequences? I have no idea what you mean by this. There is war in Tolkien, which is somewhat different than mere violence, so how are you comparing violence in the two works? The quote you use in the title is an example of Tolkien refusing "violence" (murder), even as retribution.

As to your second claim - I like heroes in my fantasy, so at least in my view, making heroes irrelevant is not necessarily a good thing. And I only got through two and a half books of the A Song of Ice and Fire series, but if you don't call Eddard, Bran and Arya heroes, what are they supposed to be?

Posted by: Three-nineteen at March 2, 2011 4:11 PM

What maka said. The Scouring of the Shire was a terrible way to end the novels. Carrying on to another problem after the main conflict has been resolved is anti-climatic and drags the story out. It would have been foolish for the movies to leave that scene in.

Posted by: elgarcon at March 2, 2011 4:17 PM

Some of the best science fiction literature that I've read has been Russian. I would highly recommend reading Night Watch and any novels by Sergei Lukyanenko. They're mostly in Russian, but there are some translated.

Also, anything by Terry Prachett. He has amazing humor in his fantasy novels and makes his worlds more believable.

Posted by: commanderfunky at March 2, 2011 4:23 PM

I have always thought that Tolkien was an outstanding creator of worlds and mythology but a poor teller of stories. . - I've always thought that about Lucas, who I always felt owed a huge debt - if not royalties - to Tolkien.

Posted by: Odnon at March 2, 2011 4:41 PM

I'll agree with elgarcon and say that while Tolkein was a fantastic mytholigist, I found the actual tales to be rather draggy and dull. However, I would also argue that almost every sword and sorcery epic owes at least a small part of its ethos to The Lord of the Rings series.

The more fantasy novels you read, the more you realize this. I'm not saying that they're completely derivative and unoriginal in any way whatsoever. What I am saying is that Tolkein paved the way for new worlds complete in gods, myths and myriad beings and that we are the richer for it.

Without The Lord of the Rings, I would not have my beloved Riftwar series, by Raymond Feist, and that would have been a tragedy.

Posted by: noodlestein at March 2, 2011 4:45 PM

Elgarcon - agreed on Tolkien being a bit boring. I loved the hobbit when I read it at age 10 but couldn't stand the rest of the books. I only finished them so I could watch the movies guilt free.

I was huge on Eddings and Feist as a kid and still have a soft spot for both, though they aren't as dark and gritty as many of the newer generation of authors (well, Feist tries to be dark but you know it will all still work out in the end).

Now I think Steven Erikson is my favorite fantasy author. If Scott Lynch continues the Lies of Locke Lamorre books in the same vein as the first two, he would be up there as well. Martin lost me in the 4th book - I started to feel like he hated all his characters so I wasn't sure why I should invest in any of them.

Posted by: benjiep at March 2, 2011 5:10 PM

I agree noodlestein. Even though I didn't love the books, they were the template on which nearly all high fantasy, good and bad, was built on for the past fifty years. They are practically year zero for fantasy, everything else is BC/AD.

Posted by: elgarcon at March 2, 2011 5:12 PM

I've always thought the point of LOTR was not so much the swords and elfy stuff but more as a lovely metaphor for the leaving behind the "magical", imagination filled world of childhood and becoming an adult. That's why it's best read at the onset of adolescence. All the "magic" is leaving the world and we "humans" are to be left on our own. I've always found it to be ultimately a very sad story. Evinced particularly in the "houses of healing" chapter. Eowyn doesn't get Aragorn. Faramir doesn't get a Kingdom. So they have each other. And they will be fine.
The whole story is about the passing of an Age of Wonder.
One we'll sorely miss. But we will be all right.
This idea is what I have found lacking in other Fantasy.

Posted by: Odnon at March 2, 2011 5:18 PM

Great stuff as always, SLW, though I will always disagree with you about the LOTR movies and the books. I think the movies are better in pretty every way than the source material. I think we just have very different veiws as to what "the point of the novels" was.

When I read the series for the first time in their entirety I was in my mid-20's. Despite having played D&D since age 6, I had never really gotten around to reading them, having delved into the "Dragonlance" books instead for whatever reason. So, when I got the end of the "Return of the King", I was stunned that there were still 100 pages or so more to go after the Ring was destroyed. I started into the "Scouring of the Shire", got bored, and it took a long time for me to finish it. I just didn't care.

Three-nineteen, I think there is a difference between those characters you mentioned, Bran, Ned and Arya, and your typical can-do-no-wrong, super powerful or skilled, flawless fantasy hero. If anything, Jon Snow or, perhaps Dany, is as close to the archtypical fantasy hero as you're going to find in Martin's books. Bran is a cripple. Arya is a bit of a psychotic and Ned is well...

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at March 2, 2011 5:19 PM

it made violence have consequences

I thought Boromir died. Probably a few elves too. Am I missing part of your critique that explains this?

Posted by: Brenton at March 2, 2011 5:27 PM

Wow. Bunches of y'all need to read some pre-Tolkien fantasy. Dunsany, Hodgson, etc. Odnon, there are Dunsany short stories that do a better job of encapsulating the passing of an Age in 5 pages than Tolkien did in hundreds, to say nothing of his novels. And for those who are having genre issues, The Night Land by Hodgson will blow your doors off. Dystopic, dying earth sci-fi fantasy about a ruined future wasteland and domed human cities as the last refuge of human life... published in 1912. Broke my brain the first time I read it.

Also, the point of Tolkien is Providence. Full stop. Sure, there's some anti-industry agrarian-porn in there and some mythologizing. The humans have all this "blood will tell" crap that stands completely at odds with the inherent populism of the hobbits.... but it's all window-dressing, really. Every theme is subservient to Faith and Providence (aka God).

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 2, 2011 5:30 PM

I gotta disagree with the scouring of the shire criticism. It serves a definite point in the novel - juxtaposition b/t the protagonists, fresh from their epic adventure, and the prosaic but comfortable place they are returning to. Saruman and his goons are supposed to seem petty - the real question is whether they succeed in re-adjusting to their old lives/contexts. JRR Tolkien was a WWI vet, and for him the re-adjustment (successful or otherwise) to ordinary life is an important part of the story.

Posted by: Royalewithcheese at March 2, 2011 5:31 PM

Also, still waiting for an explanation for the title of this thing. Debatably, there's some refudiating going on, but definitely no refuting of anything. Leastways nothing to do with Tolkien.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 2, 2011 5:32 PM

Royalewithcheese, Tolkien himself is on record (in his letters) that the Scouring of the Shire was unnecessary to the story and wasn't about anything other than making them heroes in their own land. My reading is that it was a bit of wish-fulfillment on his part, since he knew that soldiers who go off somewhere else to fight wars are rarely heroes in their own land. Historically, quite the opposite.

The inability to re-adjust would fit better with what he has said about his own life. Hence the brilliance of the very brief moment in the Green Dragon near the end of the film, showing an actual distance between our 4 heroes and the hobbits around them who have not seen war. Those 5 seconds of film were far more effective than the entire Scouring in the book was, IMO.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 2, 2011 5:37 PM

Well, Forbiddendonut, if you think the hero of Lord of the Rings is Aragorn, I don't remember the books well enough to argue the point. Of course, the actual heroes are the hobbits, and they certainly aren't can-do-no-wrong, super powerful, skilled or flawless.

And if you think of the hobbits as the heroes, then the Scouring of the Shire makes perfect sense. The hobbits set out to save their homeland. Not Middle Earth, but Hobbiton. And after all they did, the huge distances they traveled, and the obstacles they overcame, they finally made it back home -- only to find their home still wasn't safe. And now there is no Aragorn, no Gandalf, and no elf or dwarf army to help them. So the hobbits had to take what they learned from their journey and save themselves.

Posted by: Three-nineteen at March 2, 2011 5:39 PM

Beautiful comment, Odnon. And great article, SLW. I'll be the voice of dissent amongst the commenters to say I did love the books and never found them dull-- I found them engrossing and moving. I can see that Tolkien's isn't a style that can suit everyone, but I loved his descriptions, his characters and his world. I am always telling my musician friends to avoid giving songs more than one ending, but even still the Scouring of the Shire wasn't an unwanted tack-on for me-- it was the bit that made me go 'oh, no' and realise that Frodo wasn't going to be saved, and that the heroic figure that was celebrated in the coronation was a myth. Grey Havens has destroyed me every time.

And that's enough fangirling for today.

Posted by: monsley at March 2, 2011 5:42 PM

ZombieScientist, those sound really great. Noting down the recs.

Posted by: monsley at March 2, 2011 5:46 PM

Hope you like them, monsley. It is one of my missions in life to popularize good, overlooked stories.

Now that I think about it.... I'm not honestly sure why that is. If, say, Dunsany actually got the credit he deserves, all that would change is that some percentage of these stupid, circular, talking-past-each-other "discussions" about Tolkien would be replaced with stupid, circular, ignoring-anything-that-disagrees-with-our-opinions "discussions" about other Dunsany.

Apparently, I must really hate Dunsany to want that to happen.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 2, 2011 6:05 PM

I've only read The Fellowship of the Ring (when I was 27), and it was a bit of a struggle, if I'm honest. I've actually read more of Tolkien's academic work as I just finished a course on Historical Linguistics and I think in some ways his other life, as an academic, is part of what makes him hard going as a novelist [obviously there are millions of readers who'd disagree with that, including my brother, although like a lot of the commenters he read the novels in early adolescence, which seems to make a difference]. He's so deeply interested in his own research/creation that he doesn't take into account that his readers might not want pages of history/genealogy/background on the Elvish language, or that all of this may be to the detriment of the story itself.

I haven't read any George Martin yet and although I would really like to have finished A Game of Thrones before it starts on TV I doubt I'll have the time ... and thank you SLW for The Sundering recommendation - I've read both Kushiel trilogies (thought the first was amazing, and the second got progressively weaker) but was a bit put off by the reviews of her other books. Another thing to add to the Amazon wish-list!

Posted by: lingli at March 2, 2011 6:20 PM

@ZombieScientist

That's fair - I didn't know he thought that in retrospect. Although Frodo's ending strikes me as being very much a failure-to-adjust story.

Also, will definitely be looking into The Night Land. Apparently it's on Project Gutenberg.

Posted by: Royalewithcheese at March 2, 2011 6:21 PM

I agree with ZombieScientist in that I find fantasy very enjoyable up through Tolkien, and find too much since Tolkien to be derivative and/or formulaic (and less enjoyable). I will give George R.R. Martin a chance one of these days though. My fave overlooked fantasy: "The Circus of Dr. Lao" (1935).

Posted by: Pat C. at March 2, 2011 6:30 PM

kudos to SLW for stimulating a fascinating discussion in the comments. I have to admit, i read LOTR before i ever had the faintest whiff of puberty, loved them, remember very little of them. the films do seem a loving, beautiful tribute to the books, made by someone who was really very hung up on battles. I do find myself fascinated by the investment people have in the middle-earth stories.

The comment thread does make me wish i had the time and energy to still lose myself in a good sci-fi or fantasy story. actually i wish this frequently and promise to rectify things and then don't.

I just looked up the nightwatch series at chapters, and in some kind of economic retardedness out of four books, all are available for purchase, except the first. not really the way to sell books.

and i'll just add to the pile of worthy reads, the Thomas Covenant Chronicles by Stephen R. Donaldson. a very different take on reluctant heroes and hero quests.

Posted by: idleprimate at March 2, 2011 6:48 PM

on wikipedia, the list of authors who cite Dusnany(who i had never heard of) as an influence is an impressive list of the smartest and most creative talents in speculative fiction. impressive.

Posted by: idleprimate at March 2, 2011 6:55 PM

Well, I guess I will always love LOTR for its straightforwardness. Every hero is ultimately very good, even when they're not so good, and every villain is bad except for the part of Gollum that struggles to remember his roots. The morality is completely black and white, and there's a place for that in literature.

Martin's series is pretty much anti-Tolkein. They may be shelved in the same part of the library, and they may share a habit of using a lot of words, but that's the end of their similarities. There's no quest for goodness and peace. His characters are a mixed-bag: loyalty, pettiness, good intentions, greed, naked lust for power, naked lust period, fear, humor, wisdom and kindness. The characters you used to loathe will have you rooting for them several hundred pages later. There's no point hoping that the good guys ultimately prevail because you have NO clue who will even be the good guys by the time any prevailing is to be had.

Trying to compare them is apples and oranges.

Posted by: Wednesday at March 2, 2011 7:17 PM

This is going to sound extremely weird and in retrospect I am really not sure why it affected me so much but I enjoyed LOTR immensely when I first read it as youngster.

Enjoyed it until I got to the very end of the book (I am talking the notes at that back, written by the "discoverer" of the Hobbit chronicles) and learned that every name in the book was a pseudonym. That's right- it explicitly states that Gandalf, Pippin, Frido..all of them are fake names used in place of the "real" names.

I don't know why but that just bugged the hell out of me then and it still bugs the hell out of me now.

Posted by: shake at March 2, 2011 9:45 PM

I love you even more now for your love of fantasy, Steven. :D

My introduction to fantasy was Robert Jordan's Eye of the World. I love how imaginative it is. It remains one of my most favorite book. The series is tedious but it has garnered a fresh perspective with Brandon Sanderson finishing the series; I'm grateful he has culled characters that were so unnecessary from the beginning. Currently, I'm in the process of reading Patrick Rothfuss' Wise Man's Fear. If you haven't heard of the author, I suggest you pick up his first book Name of the Wind. I love the genre because of how lush and distinct worlds are painted. Worlds crumble and arise, much like our own, but they take on a different perspective, a different imagining. The familiar tropes are there but it is in the re-telling which makes it either grand or awful.

Posted by: tallulahc at March 2, 2011 10:59 PM

I'm upset that no one here appears to be a Moorcock fan!

Posted by: asforteri at March 2, 2011 11:14 PM

After watching the new trailer and reading this discussion, I was forced to get off my ass and finally pick up A Game of Thrones today.

Posted by: Uda at March 2, 2011 11:19 PM

It's easy for every one to point out Tolkien's literary flaws in hindsight. But we have to take in to account that there was him, then everyone else. He was the father of High Fantasy. He totally invented the genre.

A lot of the author's people are comparing him to don't even write high fantasy. Like Martin for example. His fantasy is entirely different. It's actually much closer to that of Robert E. Howard, the creator of Conan. But even then I wouldnt define Martin as an author of the Sword and Sorcery subgenre.

In any case, Tolkien in my eyes is and always will be a literary God.

Posted by: Muteki at March 3, 2011 6:14 AM

@Steven, if you didn't read Steven Erickson's Malazan series yet, I recommend that you do so. They are as dark as Martin's books (who still remains my favourite author), but deal with different levels of power (the gods of his world play a major role) altogether. There are only shades of grey in his world, and every book has a different approach to the whole story.

Posted by: FabMax at March 3, 2011 8:21 AM

I know no one will check this thread, since it's a day old but...

Martin just announced that "Dance With Dragon" will be released on July 12, 2011!

The Long Winter is over!

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at March 3, 2011 10:14 AM

Tolkien wasn't a creative writer-- the man was a language professor. Of dead languages. The most beautiful things he created were the tables and lists and rules for his fictitious languages.

The Lord of the Rings wasn't intended to be a story like The Hobbit. It was intended to be an epic mythology, where the world is the important part. His main resources were things like the Kalevala, not novels.

Think of them as mythological history books.

Posted by: That Girl at March 3, 2011 10:46 AM

I know no one will check this thread, since it's a day old but...

Martin just announced that "Dance With Dragon" will be released on July 12, 2011!

The Long Winter is over!

Not the first time that has happened, apparently. Believe it when it's out there.

Posted by: Fredo at March 3, 2011 11:12 AM

Thank you, That Girl.

It's nice to see someone use a source other than their own ass for commentary on Tolkien.

Faith in humanity partially restored.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 3, 2011 11:20 AM

Your article is a good one, thought provoking, yet ultimately I don't think you refute anything. Perhaps your title needs work? The article is fine though, there is nothing wrong with different viewpoints and different takes on the fantasy genre.

Personally I dont worship the Martins books. They are too dark for me. Abusing children is not my thing. That aspect makes me hate the characters too much. Also the 'heroes" are such gloomy sad sacks that I can barely stand them either. Just not my cup of fantasy.

Posted by: logan at March 3, 2011 11:25 AM

I love Moorcock's work, but "Epic Pooh" is tremendously flawed as an essay. It shouldn't be considered an adequate appraisal and criticism of Tolkien, but serve as an interesting discussion-starter to get debate going. Brian Murphy discusses the essay here:

http://www.thecimmerian.com/knocking-some-stuffing-out-of-moorcock%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cepic-pooh%E2%80%9D/

The idea of the Victorians being prim and proper is a recent invention: Tolkien was strictly a member of the War Generation, where this reserved, stiff-upper-lip approach to life seemed to originate. But that's just nitpicking.

That Girl has a point in regards to LotR not being a traditional novel: if I could elaborate further, LotR shouldn't be read in the same way that even The Hobbit is. It comes across as "stodgy, boring, dense, difficult" or whatnot not due to lack of skill or effort on Tolkien's part, but because Tolkien wasn't trying to do that in the first place. LotR is Tolkien's attempt to create a new mythology, written in the style of the old English and Norse sagas: as such, it doesn't read the same way as a modern story. As soon as one understands that, LotR becomes far more enjoyable.

That said, The Scouring of the Shire is, in my opinion, the most important part of the entire book, and for people to treat it as "anti-climactic" and even "unnecessary" have me shaking my head in disbelief. I can't help but think of it as the ultimate climax for Frodo, Sam and the Hobbit's journey, more than dropping the ring in Mount Doom or the battle at the Black Gate. Certainly I don't recall any Tolkien letter which categorizes the tale as unnecessary: the only one I can find which specifically discusses the Scouring says quite the opposite.

Posted by: Al Harron at March 3, 2011 12:27 PM

"The Lord of the Rings wasn't intended to be a story like The Hobbit. It was intended to be an epic mythology, where the world is the important part. His main resources were things like the Kalevala, not novels."

To me, that is more descriptive of the SILMARILLION than THE LORD OF THE RINGS. LOTR takes things down to a very close, intimate, level with the main characters, whereas the SILMARILLION rarely does that.

Posted by: Pat C. at March 3, 2011 7:27 PM

his people came into my work and bought a bunch of super8 film that they were going to use to film behind the scenes the whole night. franco was looking forward to creating something of his OWN, and thought a really cool way to do it would be to have a very real, unpolished account of what it was like to host the oscars and what the madness looked like backstage. very on par with franco's latests artisitc endeavors, no? unfortunately, before the telecast, the academy changed their minds and refused to let him and his people do any filming behind the scenes. hence, the complete lack of investment in his hosting duties.

i do have this to say though, while he may have 'stuck it' to the academy by giving such a terrible go of it (and the ratings reflected this), it doesn't say much for his acting capabilities. he should have at least bucked up for anne, she was looking damn near crazy on stage trying to make up for his lack of enthusiasm.

Posted by: Bleach cosplay costumes at March 3, 2011 9:59 PM

Thanks SLW, I've always felt that Carey's Sundering and Banewrecker were unfairly maligned. Good to know there are others out there that appreciated that alternate view, although I can see how her fanbase might be turned off if they aren't huge LoTR nerdatrons.

As for LoTR, I took a college level class on it and got to have all these rich conversations ten fold. Don't even get me started on how poorly Faramir and Boromir were handled in the movie. I have a ridiculously long paper addressing how Jackson et al just tore out the relevant pages and wiped their collectives ass with 'em. Terrible, terrible disservice to the source material.

Posted by: UMG at March 4, 2011 3:26 PM

There is a vid on youtube called "how it should have ended". In LOTR case, it has the characters flying over the Mountain of Doom on the Eagles and dropping the ring in. I know there are objections such as the flying Nazgul, but, hell, they couldn't have taken the Eagles to at least get them all closer?

Posted by: Wonko at March 4, 2011 11:07 PM

I read Kiryl Yeskov's "The Last Ringbearer" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiril_Yeskov), and liked it more than LOTR. It tells the same story from Mordor's point of view, with Saruman choosing to pursue technology rather than weakening magic. The biggest flaw in it was IMO putting to much emphasis on secret agents. Otherwise it was great :)

Posted by: Maklak at March 5, 2011 9:06 AM