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On the Occupy Wall Street Movement, the Death Rattle of the Old Media, and America's Economic Disparity

By Michael Murray | Posted Under Think Pieces | Comments (84)



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Like most people I know, the Occupy Wall Street Movement came to my attention slowly. Little snippets about a protest began to appear in my news feeds. I figured it was just the normal currents flowing out from my left-leaning friends and didn’t imagine that it, whatever exactly it was, would amount to much. But the links and clips just kept coming, often with accompanying gloss that asked, “Why isn’t the mainstream media covering this?!”

LeGreca.jpgThis now famous clip was thrilling, even cathartic to watch. Watching this hyper-articulate everyman in the questionable hat, completely schooling Fox News lapdog Griff Jenkins, I had the feeling that a generation was being defined, just the way that a hippie girl sticking a flower in the rifle barrel of soldier during the 60s did for that era. Even though Fox never aired the interview, it caught fire online and the speaker, a man named Jesse LeGreca, almost immediately assumed a somewhat unfortunate iconic status.

For the most part, the movement has been free of celebrity intrusions (Radiohead was rumored to be playing last week, but this turned out to be a hoax), lending the proceedings a sincerity and authenticity that seems foreign to our political discourse. The unvarnished honesty of the LeGreca interview, and the fact that Fox refused to air what was obvious journalistic gold, just served to pull back the curtain from the mechanisms of Big Media, revealing the frail, partisan Wizards of Oz pedaling madly away in the hopes of maintaining the illusions it daily casts out.

The fact that corporate media is biased and self-serving is not news. It’s fast becoming an irrelevant dinosaur and few of us now even bother to read a newspaper and only tune into the local news to see if anybody was shot down the block. Instead, we rely on our social media feeds, watch comedic deconstructionists like Colbert and Stewart (or whomever your political equivalent might be) and scan the blogs and magazines we’ve deemed germane. This creates a customized, boutique kind of news service where our own interests and prejudices are reinforced rather than balanced. For instance, living in my self-constructed information trench, I might think that the Occupy Wall Street movement is either more or less important than it might be, depending on what’s valued in my niche community. And so regardless of how we get our information, the world will remain mysterious and we’re ever in danger of living in a tribal ghetto, be it of our own construction (better, I think), or one that’s constructed by some corporate entity (worse, I think.).

Watch Griff Jenkins cover a Tea Party rally, noting that this one did go to air:

Keeping in mind the subjective vicissitudes of any reportage, the stuff I’ve been watching from Wall Street is utterly striking, even inspiring. More than anything, it reminds me of the post 9/11 coverage, possessing a hand-held, documentarian gravitas. It’s inchoate, at times disorganized and radically personal, and there’s very much the feeling that what’s taking place is an organic manifestation born from a multitude of small, but very real and painful economic disasters, a micro national tragedy countlessly repeated, rather than one great macro tragedy for all to see on TV. The fact this movement was the Arab-Spring inspired brainchild of culture jammers Adbusters does little to diminish its integrity.

Undoubtedly, much of the information that comes spinning toward us is presented without sufficient context, is misleading or flat-out wrong. I mean, very few of us really know if the wealthiest one percent of Americans own over 70 percent of the nation’s assets, or if the typical CEO in America earns more than 425 times that of the average employee in that company, a rate that is completely incongruous with the rest of the world. But we do know, in our bones and through our experience, that there is a radical imbalance of wealth in America.

Vividly skewed, the economic disparities are unfair and wrong, and each one of us can see this regardless of how well we’ve been served by the system, or how much we’re told about the beneficent intentions of the invisible hand. When a natively observed dissonance resonates with the intuition of enough people, then you have a sincere revolutionary movement, and to me that’s what Occupy Wall Street could become.

One of the beautiful things about this movement is that it didn’t arrive as a ready-made shock and awe campaign, but as more of an evolving flash-mob, as much street theatre as partisan political rally. It’s being treated as a moral issue, treating the opportunity for economic equality as a civil right, and there’s not one single, defining demand to be negotiated, but a necessity to open up a dialogue and reach some sort of humane consensus. No doubt, this process will be bitter, painful and destructive, but that’s the very nature of the revolutionary thinking that gave birth to America.

The system is fucked-up and people are suffering terribly. The elected politicians have little ability to do anything more than fidget at the margins, and whether the market goes up or down, those in power continue to prosper, their wealth multiplying, regardless of the very real and very meaningful fact that they’re actually not creating anything.

It boggles my mind that in a nation as genuinely awesome as the United States could have people who readily accept the imposition of mandatory automobile insurance from government, but take up arms at the thought of the imposition of mandatory health insurance from government. This, to me, suggests a culture dangerously out of sync, a place where having a car repaired is seen as more intrinsically valuable than having a human repaired.

For well over a century, brute capitalism has served North America well, but the mythic age of untrammelled expansion toward limitless horizons, where each generation would drive their car into a more prosperous future, is over. We’re in a different place now, and we have unanticipated obstacles and realities in front of us that the old system, built for a different world, can no longer accommodate. What’s in place isn’t working and things have to change, whether we want that to happen or not, and the people on the front lines of the this protest are the agents attempting to initiate this.

Unaffiliated with the dominant political class and refreshingly free of partisan self-interest, Occupy Wall Street slowly gathers momentum, metastasizing across the country and in Europe. I hope it becomes a long-term encampment and that all who feel disenfranchised, inspired or merely curious, make their way to New York’s financial district and stay, until the system that we all, one way or another labor beneath is fixed.

Inevitably, one generation bows to the next, and this point in history feels like that moment when a critical mass is reached and the world as we’ve known it begins to tumble. And for those who are religiously or apocalyptically inclined, you can bet that if Jesus were around he’d be the first one shaking the barricades, and he’s the one we’re all supposed to follow, isn’t he?

So where are you?

Michael Murray is a freelance writer. He presently lives in Toronto. You can find more of his musings on his blog, or check out his Facebook page.










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Comments

I'm confused. The byline in Dustin, but the bio at the bottom is Michael. Who wrote this? Nice piece.

Posted by: KatSings at October 14, 2011 1:18 PM

I'm not going to comment on politics here because that's not why I come to this site. But I thought I would post a couple of tumblrs that might help inform this conversation.

Occupy Wall Street tumblr We are the 99 Percent:
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

Response tumblr We are the 53% (supposed to represent the 53% of people who pay income tax):
http://the53.tumblr.com/

And the response tumblr to the response tumblr Actually, You're the 47% (comments on posts from We are the 53%):
http://actuallyyourethe47percent.tumblr.com/

Posted by: Three-nineteen at October 14, 2011 1:21 PM

I still have an ace up my sleeve in all this. That I can use to paper cut my throat and end it all before I'm forced to sell my body to closeted rich dudes for sandwiches. So like, five year plan is what I'm saying.

Posted by: googergieger at October 14, 2011 1:41 PM

Nice job, Mr. Murray!

Posted by: DarthCorleone at October 14, 2011 1:44 PM

Thank you for sharing this video (I hadn't seen it). "Watching this hyper-articulate everyman in the questionable hat, completely schooling Fox News lapdog Griff Jenkins..." Hear hear!

I am conversely proud and worried about the occupy wallstreet movement. I love that people are actively engaging in a participatory way to communicate their disenchantment with our financial institutions.

But there isn't a clear "we will leave when we achieve X" so I don't really see any meaningful result coming out of this movement (I would love to be wrong on this BTW). Thus when does it end exactly?

My fear is that it will end badly - the crowd will draw some wacky dude who does something ugly and then the whole thing will be remembered as "that thing where that dude killed a guy." Again, I really hope I am wrong about that too.

Really nice article.

Posted by: Alexis at October 14, 2011 1:46 PM

And for those who are religiously or apocalyptically inclined, you can bet that if Jesus were around he’d be the first one shaking the barricades, and he’s the one we’re all supposed to follow, isn’t he?

So where are you?

Amen. I'm all for this. We have quite an encampment going on in my city right now, going strong at over a week in. Tomorrow I'm joining a group of people who are contributing to, and participating in, a group effort to cook a shit load of good, hot food to take to them. I work full time and have three kids so joining the fray isn't very feasible (although I hear they've created a 'kidville' for all the youngsters whose parents are choosing to be directly involved), but I'll support them where I can.

Posted by: katy at October 14, 2011 1:47 PM

That's the dumbest thing I've read in a long while.

Posted by: Kerminy at October 14, 2011 1:51 PM

Can I be 33.3% of the 99%, 33.3% of the 47%, 33.3% of the 53% and .1% of the 1%? I ask because I agree with different aspects of all of those %'s.

Also, I'd need to get something off of my chest and you may feel free to lambaste me for it if you will. I don't care, my fucks are in my other pants. Why aren't the 99% occupying every federal government meeting place they can find? Wall Street doesn't make the rules, your elected officials do. If the people you elected into office are susceptible to Wall Street's demands, does that not point towards a flaw in your own government?

Posted by: admin at October 14, 2011 1:56 PM

If the people you elected into office are susceptible to Wall Street's demands, does that not point towards a flaw in your own government?

Yes. I think that's the point of the location.

Posted by: Malky at October 14, 2011 2:01 PM

I told my husband this morning that I was a little bit in love with the Occupy movement. I get my news almost exclusively from NPR, which has been covering this uprising quite a bit, and I know there are flaws and that it's not going to bring about world peace and all of that, but it restores my faith in humanity and America to a remarkable degree. FINALLY, people are realizing that the needs of the many are supposed to outweigh the needs of the few, and they're taking a stand and making a statement.

I'm going to get out to my local movement sometime soon and join in, I swear. Thanks for this piece. Excellent work.

Posted by: Samantha at October 14, 2011 2:02 PM

It boggles my mind that in a nation as genuinely awesome as the United States could have people who readily accept the imposition of mandatory automobile insurance from government, but take up arms at the thought of the imposition of mandatory health insurance from government.

THANK YOU. I lose my shit trying to understand how mandatory auto insurance has been a non-issue for this long, but we have supreme court cases in several states debating the validity of Obama's health care reform (or rather, in most cases, specifically the requirement to have health insurance.)

I cringe a little at the idea that people who don't pay taxes are immediately forbidden to complain about anything (I'm still not sure how the 99%-1% population wealth argument was turned into the 53%-47% taxpaying statistic.) If anything, the people exempt from paying taxes are in most cases living in poverty, or close to it, and would love to have a flourishing middle class so they could have meaningful employment that would make them part of the 53%.

Posted by: Markus at October 14, 2011 2:08 PM

The Tea Party rails against government, but gives big business a pass. These guys rail against big business, but they support Obama and think that making the government bigger is the answer. As though government and big business weren't inextricably entangled, as though Goldman Sachs weren't running our government's economic policy regardless of which party is in power.

Posted by: John at October 14, 2011 2:08 PM

**"It boggles my mind that in a nation as genuinely awesome as the United States could have people who readily accept the imposition of mandatory automobile insurance from government, but take up arms at the thought of the imposition of mandatory health insurance from government. This, to me, suggests a culture dangerously out of sync, a place where having a car repaired is seen as more intrinsically valuable than having a human repaired."**

I feel like crying right now.

Posted by: klingonfree at October 14, 2011 2:08 PM

That's the dumbest thing I've read in a long while.

Yes, of course it is. Because you say so, obviously. Care to join the discussion by actually, you know, contribute something to it? Or are you happy to play the troll?

Where I am? I am sitting here on my bed in my room (it's too small to fit an actual chair in) I rent in Ireland of my pitiful savings hoping to get another job soon. I have been looking for about 2 months now, with no luck. If I don't find anything soon, I will have to go back to Germany and move in with my parents before going back to living of off state money, which is most likely not enough to find an appartment that's not a hole in the wall. Because apparently no-one will hire a well educated, bi-lingual guy who is not afraid to take risks going to another country.

I know the security net in Germany is pretty well established, so I wont starve. That does not mean I like living that way. I did that long enough, and I hate it.

I wish the protesters all the luck. The will need it. Chances are high that they will achieve nothing and the bulk of the people will just melt away slowly. Am I cynical? Of course I am.

Posted by: FabMax at October 14, 2011 2:16 PM

Where am I?

At work.

Posted by: latvianluck at October 14, 2011 2:16 PM

I'll keep my cynicism to myself today and just congratulate you on a great, well-written piece, Michael. I always enjoy reading your work.

Posted by: Cindy at October 14, 2011 2:24 PM

I've been to the "we are the 99%" tumbler thing. I get that people are really struggling. But as a college student, I get pissed off when individuals, who have sunk insane amounts of money, to get degrees in fields that have little help of generating income, complain they are stuck.

The American dream, at no time, was never take out $60K plus for a bachelor degree of fine arts and expect to pay that back with a job.

Why is college so expensive? Because it is subsidized. Colleges can charge insane amounts of money for English Lit, Philosophy, Women's Studies, Ancient Studies, Political Science, etc knowing that people with far more financial backing then common fucking sense are going to sign up for it.

We in America have an extremely warped understanding of the value of education. We are sold on a bogus notion that anyone with a degree will make more money than someone without it. That simple is not true. The actual statistics that colleges use to trick parents and students only compare individuals with professional, technical degrees, who are currently employed in that field versus high school diploma holders. So what they are claiming is that individuals trained as doctors, physicists, engineers, etc and currently have jobs in those fields, make more money than high school grads. Well fucking duh. They don't consider individuals with technical training such as mechanics, plumbers, etc. But if you compare the average BFA recipient, crippled with debt against those that immediately enter the work force from high school, the stats tell a very different picture.

I am in my fifth year for engineering as a 30 year old. Most of my friends in college graduated in four years. Across the board, they are living at their parent's home, trying to get into a Master program, going deeper into debt because their bachelors are worthless in this economy. I fail to see how sinking even more money, which just like the housing crisis, we are all going to have to pay back eventually, is going to solve their issues.

Just having a degree is not an automatic for a job. There needs to be clear investigations and prosecutions for the insanity that occurred in the financial markets leading to the economic implosion but I am telling you right now, even if the economy was good, we would still have a large number kids struggling to pay off massive amounts of school debt because they chose to run up insane debts to go into fields will little opportunity.

Posted by: Diablo at October 14, 2011 2:24 PM

These guys rail against big business, but they support Obama and think that making the government bigger is the answer.

Not to pick a fight, but, can you back that up with anything? I haven't see much of the protests in photos as much as I've been just reading about them, but from what I've seen, no one is asking for bigger government, or showing any kind of political affiliation.

I don't think they're asking for a bigger government, so much as a same-size government that puts the peoples' interests ahead of industry and lobbyists.

Posted by: Markus at October 14, 2011 2:27 PM

THANK YOU. I lose my shit trying to understand how mandatory auto insurance has been a non-issue for this long, but we have supreme court cases in several states debating the validity of Obama's health care reform (or rather, in most cases, specifically the requirement to have health insurance.)

Auto insurance is not federally mandated, it's regulated by the states.

The health care law is a federal law. Federal laws are derived from the US Constitution and there is no clause that says the federal government can force a person to spend money on goods or services they do not want.

Do you understand now?

Posted by: Allen at October 14, 2011 2:30 PM

Thank you Diablo.

Posted by: Nicole at October 14, 2011 2:40 PM

@ Allen

No.

I have no understanding at all why the Constitution, framed two centuries ago, is considered an immaculate document, like the Bible. Whether the directive comes from the Federal government or the State government, what difference does it make in practice? Why is one sacrosanct and the other is not?

Posted by: Michael Murray at October 14, 2011 2:42 PM

Thanks for this. This is such a great piece, well-balanced and accessible no matter what one's political leanings might be. I'll be sharing it with my more conservative family members and friends!

Posted by: The Fatling at October 14, 2011 2:46 PM

The health care law is a federal law. Federal laws are derived from the US Constitution and there is no clause that says the federal government can force a person to spend money on goods or services they do not want.

Funny, Canada has the opposite problem. I couldn't pay for most health care services if I wanted to.

Posted by: admin at October 14, 2011 2:47 PM

Something tells me if states were the ones requiring the purchase of health insurance, we'd be hearing the same outrage from those who oppose it.

Thanks for clarifying that one is federal and the other is state, but in the end it still I still don't see the difference, in terms of why people who are against a requirement to have health insurance have not been protesting up until now that same requirement with auto insurance.

Posted by: Markus at October 14, 2011 2:47 PM

Unless I'm mistaken isn't the point of mandatory auto insurance in most of the US to cover damage done to 3rd parties? In other words, a recognition of the fact that operating a car carries the risk of doing significant damage to the lives and/or property of others and that a minimum level of insurance against damage to others is necessary to offset that risk? That's not really analogous to the individual health insurance mandate (which I think is a good idea, incidentally), is it?

Posted by: cr at October 14, 2011 2:51 PM

I have no understanding at all why the Constitution, framed two centuries ago, is considered an immaculate document, like the Bible.

It isn't immaculate, which is why every so often we 'amend the constitution'. The constitution has been amended 27 times, unlike the Bible.

Whether the directive comes from the Federal government or the State government, what difference does it make in practice?

Bro, federalism.

Posted by: Allen at October 14, 2011 2:56 PM

I have no understanding at all why the Constitution, framed two centuries ago, is considered an immaculate document, like the Bible.

My guess is because they're both documents whose authors never intended them to be interpreted the way they are by those people who hold them in such high esteem. That they're both products of their times that could stand some modern revision. That their authors are considered to be so intelligent that nothing constructed by a modern mind could ever hope to match their insight.

Posted by: Bert at October 14, 2011 2:58 PM

Thanks for clarifying that one is federal and the other is state, but in the end it still I still don't see the difference, in terms of why people who are against a requirement to have health insurance have not been protesting up until now that same requirement with auto insurance.

Read cr's post.

Posted by: Allen at October 14, 2011 3:01 PM

The problem is that no one seems to recognize that the extreme right and extreme left... the top 1% and those suckling on the social program teat... are devouring the country from both ends. But there seems to be no one that recognizes that attacking one side or the other is not a solution. Common sense is the solution. That the wealthiest few can afford to pay more without causing the plague and making the country a province of China is obvious. Equally obvious is that when you pay people for nothing that is exactly what you get, or worse, a negative return. Is there no one that can see this? I am conservative and believe strongly in self reliance. But I also believe a people can't call themselves civilized if they refuse to help those that can't help themselves. Conversely, giving money to those that REFUSE to help themselves makes EVERYONE poorer. Bailing our banks and car companies was WRONG. It cost far more than the companies and all their assets were worth, and denied the much needed market correction while increasing the debt load for generations to come... FFS, what is wrong with everyone? Idolatry of ideology is not the answer!

Posted by: The Toad at October 14, 2011 3:02 PM

Auto insurance is only mandatory if you want to drive. The HCRO makes healh insurance mandatory is you want to breathe.

And for every well spoken and thoughful example of an Occupier you can show (which is questionable in the lead interview, since he just recited a bunch of well known liberal tropes w/o evidence or solutions), there's a counter example. Why...here's one now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrPGoPFRUdc

That's a pretty good example of what the Occupy group really wants.

Posted by: Olorin at October 14, 2011 3:07 PM

Again, I thought the issue at hand was the requirement of purchase of goods or service. Is it really outrageous if the federal government does it, but completely acceptable when done at a state level (regardless of the goods/services being required, or their intent.)

Posted by: Markus at October 14, 2011 3:09 PM

Why aren't they back on campus, protesting to the presidents that their universities pay ZERO taxes to ANY entity, while they sit on billion-dollar endowments and yet are free to jack up tuition as much as they want? Diablo is right: Don't blame Wall Street if you come out of college owing $80,000 and can't find a job with your English lit degree. I just read the other day that railroads are getting desperate for people to be engineers and conductors, but those jobs involve, you know, actual physical labor and tough living conditions. So you might have to sweat and be away from home for days at a time. EWWWWW.

Posted by: , at October 14, 2011 3:10 PM

That's a pretty good example of what the Occupy group really wants.
And you feel confident making statements about the entire group's wants and values because why, exactly?

Posted by: Markus at October 14, 2011 3:16 PM

Bailing our banks and car companies was WRONG. It cost far more than the companies and all their assets were worth.
---
I only know what I read, but ... didn't the banks pay back their TARP money, with interest?

Reuters says they did:

www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/30/us-usa-treasury-banks-idUSTRE72S7Q120110330

And didn't GM repay its bailout with interest?

AP says it did:

www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9F7JJ3O0.htm

Posted by: , at October 14, 2011 3:19 PM

A lovely, thoughtful piece.

Posted by: miss kate at October 14, 2011 3:21 PM

I don't think that the OWS movement knows what it really wants, it just wants/needs something, and that in and of itself should be sufficient. It's a massive, complex hydra-headed beast we're all living within, and few of us really have any understanding of the complex mechanisms by which it runs, but all of us can see that it works for the few rather than the many at this point in time, and I think that's what OWS is expressing.

Posted by: Michael Murray at October 14, 2011 3:25 PM

I think one of the reasons people are furious is that while the TARP money was repaid (and in fact, the US government made a profit off the interest,) the American taxpayer isn't getting any kind of return on what was initially their money.

A lot of these "too big to fail" banks aren't lending money, so small businesses are still suffering. They're not rehiring the jobs they slashed,and in fact Bank of America is cutting another 30,000 (although I'm not sure how many of the exactly will be in the US.)

Many of the banks are roughly where they were before, the US government made a slight return on their investment, however unemployment hasn't dropped back to where it was before 2008, and a lot of taxpayers' 401k's, if tied to company stocks, took a massive hit.

In other words, we paid the financial cost of the mistakes made by people who are still employed at bigger-than-ever CEO salaries. Hence, outrage.

Posted by: Markus at October 14, 2011 3:28 PM

Michael Murray,

Same thing with 4-year-olds, exactly, but in their case we call it a tantrum and put them in timeout.

Posted by: , at October 14, 2011 3:30 PM

Did GM repay it's bailout? Sort of... but not really... http://everydayecon.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/more-on-gm/

And as for the banks: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daniel-gross/banks-pay-back-tarp-funds-borrowing-treasury-205658852.html

So the loans are supposed to be paid, yet somehow the nation is still left with the massive debt hangover, along with a devalued currency. Neat trick don't you think? Too bad consumers didn't have those kind of cards up their sleeves.

Posted by: The TOAD at October 14, 2011 3:30 PM

That federal versus states argument doesn't hold up. The Constitution's Commerce Clause empowers Congress to regulate interstate commerce or matters that otherwise "substantially affect" interstate commerce. The health care purchase mandate law has been found constitutional by an Appeals Court judge who is considered one of the leading proponents of States Rights.

Also, people who choose not to have health insurance (as well as those who cannot afford it) do affect third parties, i.e., everyone else pays for their highly expensive acute care when they need it.

Posted by: PaddyDog at October 14, 2011 3:31 PM

Re; the flower child slut pushing the rose down the gun barrel.

Oh my yes, what an ICONIC image. Why, after that image was flashed around the world the United States IMMEDIATELY not only withdrew every single trrop from Vietnam, but also from Korea and Europe as well and the President and Vice President, in fact every elected member of the United States federal government resigned or stepped down. Everyone remember all that happening?

No, you don't because none of you selfish/self centered/self absorbed/spoiled/ snot nosed Gen X/GenY/Gen Me brats was even born yet.

And also because NONE of that happened.

In fact all of the Vietnam era anti-war protests were an absolute failure, because none of them ended up getting a single US troop out any earlier then they were supposed to.

Posted by: The Gong Of Doom at October 14, 2011 3:33 PM

No company is too big too fail. If they are poorly run, they will fail. Period. Then the assets are sold off to the highest bidder. So valuations are corrected, speculators are punished, and well run companies profit by gobbling up the assets at bargain prices. That is how capitalism is supposed to work! Not punish the honest companies and taxpayers to reward the crooks that bankrupted themselves... That gives a competitive advantage to crooks and incompetents.

Posted by: The TOAD at October 14, 2011 3:35 PM

Gong of Doom,

Make your point, that's your right. But don't be a FUCKING ASSHOLE about it. There is absolutely no call for that level of diatribe.

Nor do you know the ages of EVERY SINGLE WRITER AND POSTER who writes/posts here. I'm a regular reader, so I know that some of these people are your contemporaries.

Posted by: anon33 at October 14, 2011 3:48 PM

Nice piece. I'm all for the movement. It's about fucking time. I've been fighting this cause for awhile, was on the front page of the LA Times Xtra section protesting the Koch Bros in Palm Springs earlier this year. The first OWS action has been put out there: take your $ out of Chase Bank and close your account on 11/5 and put it in a smaller local bank or credit union. I've been meaning to do this anyway, so now I have a date in mind.

Posted by: kidtiger at October 14, 2011 3:54 PM

My husband (a third-world country immigrant) is an engineer and he does pretty well. I have an advanced degree in English Lit and I do pretty well too. I got a job right out of college at a newspaper and then I sold out and worked (very lucratively) in PR.

I wonder, Diablo, do you REALLY want to live in a country where everyone has an engineering degree (or the like) or more specifically, where NO ONE has a fine art degree or a Lit degree or a L.A. degree or the like? Please take this line of narrow thought to its logical conclusion (as any good engineer can) and see that your hyperbole does not work in the long run.

And you made a few grammatical errors in your diatribe. But that's OK. We can't all be writers. Some of us have to solve quadratic equations, after all.

Posted by: klingonfree at October 14, 2011 3:59 PM

PaddyDog - agreed. I just don't like the auto insurance analogy as a case for the individual mandate because it's messy and *ahem* is sometimes reduced into a "some Americans value cars more than human life" argument. There are reasonable people on both sides of the individual mandate issue and the ones against it aren't on that side because they think cars are more important than people. (Please note I said "reasonable people" - there are also plenty of unreasonable people who do things like cheer for execution tallies and boo soldiers for wanting to live their lives as themselves. I make no claim to understand or defend their reasons for disliking the individual mandate). It's easy to make a case for the universal healthcare without resorting to distorting the other side's positions. Your point about the cost of acute emergency care driving healthcare costs for everyone up is an excellent start.

Posted by: cr at October 14, 2011 4:04 PM

You'd think that if the field of work is less lucrative, the degree would cost less as a result of supply and demand. But that's part of the problem - college, in general, has become about profit, not education, and not for helping anyone get meaningful work.

College loans are guaranteed and cannot be written off in bankruptcy. They are for life. So, colleges have zero risk in encouraging students to apply for federal aid. On top of rising tuition prices, the longer they keep students enrolled, the more money they make.

If a student defaults on a loan, it is backed by the government and repaid with taxpayer money. Hence, there is no risk to the lender (such as Fannie and Freddie) to approve loans that are unlikely to be paid back in full by the borrower.

The student is then sent to collections, so they are still paying the amount of the defaulted loan, AFTER the lender has been paid in full, and almoset certainly after they have graduated (since loans usually have a post-graduation grace period before you start making payments.)

When the lenders own the collection agencies, they essentially can receive twice the value of the student loan, plus interest.

Since it's getting harder and harder to find meaningful employment without a college degree, the colleges have no need to adjust their tuition rates. Since there is no risk, lenders are more than happy to keep approving loans for those tuitions.

The result is a population that will either continue to take on up-front debt in exchange for a shot ad doing what they love for a living, or one that will eventually not be able to afford 9or not be willing to pay) tuition and will take whatever work is available without a degree in order to remain debt-free - which judging by the number of middle-class jobs being replaces by retail positions, is kind of where we're heading anyway.

Pic: http://consumerist.com/studentloanschemescheme.jpg

Posted by: Markus at October 14, 2011 4:15 PM

But if you compare the average BFA recipient, crippled with debt against those that immediately enter the work force from high school, the stats tell a very different picture.

Do you have a citation for these stats? I'm not necessarily doubting the point, just curious to see this actually stated in a non-anecdotal "my college graduate friends are all living at home" way. I agree that a degree doesn't equal a job, but how many actually come out of college with something akin to the $80k in debt and an English Lit degree (like , said)?


From the National Center for Education Statistics (part of the U.S. Department of Education and the Institute of Education Sciences):

Last year about 74 percent of young adults (ages 25-34) with a bachelor's degree or higher were employed full-time (and that's not necessarily in their chosen degree field) as compared with 55 percent of those who had a high school diploma or equivalent without attending any further school. They reported income based on the median ($45k versus $21k, not the average) and didn't specify that a job needed to be within the same field as their degree. The figures put it at about two-thirds of first-time bachelor’s degree recipients needing to borrow to finance their degrees with the average cumulative amount to be just under $25,000.

Posted by: branded at October 14, 2011 4:23 PM

I feel bad for Mrs. Julien having to read through all this contemptuous bile.

Posted by: ARGH! I HATE PEOPLE WHO FEEL SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM HOW I FEEL ON POLITICAL MATTERS! BLARARGHARGH! at October 14, 2011 4:42 PM

I was almost reeled into making a comment, but I thought of Mrs Julien and decided to spare her and everyone else my contemptuous bile.

Posted by: Zombie Mrs Smith at October 14, 2011 4:57 PM

I wish winter would fucking hurry up already.

Posted by: Greedy at October 14, 2011 5:04 PM

I would go with your survey data Branded because for the life of me, I cannot find the study I was talking about. I know it was a Georgetown University study from about two or three years ago but I would definetly agree that government surveys should be used in this conversation.

Klingonfree, I never implied that I would want the world to be filled with engineers. That would be a hell hole. I come from a family that includes a sister with a PhD in music, an older brother who as a masters in business, and a younger brother who is a meth addict. I like to think we represent America. Obviously all four of our generation on at different levels of economic opportunity.

I get into this argument with my sister all the time. She feels its horrific that despite her classical training on multiple instruments, she makes less than I do at my job while still a student. My job currently is in construction. While she has a LOT more training (along with a lot more educational debt) I have skill sets that are in much, much higher demand. But she gets to do something she loves, I do something that pays me well. Its personal choice. At least she doesn't get arrested for perusing her passion like our younger sibling...though all kidding aside, I have tried to get him help numerous times.

I just think it is insane that people can go to colleges and get degrees in certain fields that are akin to becoming a cobbler, and then they complain that the American Dream is dead. I am not saying all college kids are doing this. But if you go to the "we are the 99 percent" tumbler page, you'll see it...ALOT.

Posted by: Diablo at October 14, 2011 5:11 PM

And obviously I am an engineering student as English hard is write logically...

Posted by: Diablo at October 14, 2011 5:12 PM

Aw, c'mon, y'all! Thoughtful discourse on a piece like this should take place in the comments section! (Sorry, Mrs Julien.)

I was going to say something about the whole health care/auto insurance distinction, but Paddydog and cr covered it.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at October 14, 2011 5:17 PM

I'm not actually much of a fan of the "We Are The 99 Percent" site, as Diablo said, it does seem to be dominated by the same type of voices, with the same sort of voices. Further, it's borrowed very, very heavily from the aesthetic of Post Secret and comes off a little self-indulgent and almost precious in my view point.

As far as college/university goes, I'm one of the many who got a degree in the liberal arts, and I'm not sure that I ever thought it would lead to a job. My belief, in not then, certainly now, is that the the undergrad, liberal arts experience is one that teaches critical thinking, a skill that can be applied to whatever you do or wherever you are in life.

Posted by: Michael Murray at October 14, 2011 5:23 PM

Wasn't going to, but you've won me over:
I'll take myself and my studies to the Occupy in Vancouver this Saturday.

Posted by: howmanyfishes at October 14, 2011 5:36 PM

Nice article, Michael.

I grateful that the income (and power) disparity in this country is getting some much-needed attention. I want corporations to make money; I dig capitalism. However, I want opportunities for individuals to get more of a share in the wealth they help generate. I want jobs to stay here, for skilled trade to be elevated and honored, for a whole lot of economic and political change that neither political party seems to give a rat's ass about.

Honestly, I'm waiting for Godtopus to organize the Octopi Wall Street rallies. I'm so there.

Posted by: MonkeyHateClean at October 14, 2011 5:37 PM

Honestly, I'm waiting for Godtopus to organize the Octopi Wall Street rallies. I'm so there.

If Mrs. Julien doesn't wade through the comments, she'll miss this gem.

Posted by: MM at October 14, 2011 6:18 PM

Well done, sir.

Posted by: Laura at October 14, 2011 6:33 PM

You conflate cable news and print as if they are the same thing, and they're not. People haven't stopped reading newspapers and magazines because newspapers and magazines suck (although many of them do suck). People have stopped reading newspapers and magazines because you have to, you know, read them, and a lot of people (younger people, mostly) apparently prefer to watch news (if they watch news at all). But newspapers and magazines are doing a lot of actual journalism. As opposed to the infotainment that rules television now.

Most of the people who warned of the financial clusterfuck well before it happened worked in print, not on TV.

So maybe if more people would actually read their news instead of watching it, they'd know what the fuck is going on. And they also need to tear themselves away from shit like The Real Housewives, Dancing with the Stars, sports, porn, YouTube, etc. occasionally. Did you know there are publications out there that actually discuss finance? Like almost exclusively? And they're all available online (although not all are free; I believe the WSJ online subscription is $30 a year).

The Occupy Wall Street thing is very nice to see, but many of the people there really don't have much of a clue as to what they're actually protesting. That guy up at the top is an exception.

I'm all for challenging the status quo because the status quo sucks for a lot of people for reasons that don't often get examined on TV. But I think if you're going to gripe that the "corporate media" doesn't tell you anything, your responsibility doesn't stop there. You might actually have to go out of your way a little bit to find and read stuff that the corporations aren't telling you. Like this:
http://www.ajr.org/article.asp?id=4668

Here's another freebie: http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/

The "corporate media" is not usually gonna hand useful information to you on a fucking silver platter. Why would NBC (owned by one of the largest corporations on earth) tell you about how much corporations suck?

Posted by: Slash at October 14, 2011 6:55 PM

Slash:

I was a weekly columnist at a large Canadian daily for years, and I can tell you that from my experience, we were in the business of selling advertising. An editor told me as much, saying the copy we write was merely the stuff that goes between the ads. And of course, the paper I wrote for was owned by a massive conglomeration, and I was sometimes asked to review a program that was on one of their television networks and if I had negative things to say, I was told to look harder for the positive. An obvious self-censorship presided.

I'm of a mind that it's rarely the audience that fails the medium, but the medium that fails the audience. If people are no longer reading the important web sites/magazines/books/newspapers it's because something has happened in the culture that the important web sites/magazines/books/newspapers haven't tuned in to. It's not just a matter of look harder, Joe Average, it's more, "Hey, what are we doing wrong that prevents Joe Average from wanting to listen?"

At any rate, there's plenty of blame to go around for our collective ignorance, but I simply that think that as a culture we are now transmitting information, and obviously receiving it, in ways that old, corporate media have yet to catch-up with.

Posted by: Michael Murray at October 14, 2011 7:17 PM

I get all my news from porn.

Posted by: Odnon at October 14, 2011 7:32 PM

MM: Yes, I know that publications exist to sell ads. Just like TV does and like many websites do, too.

I'm just saying that when people say, "Why didn't anybody tell us this awful thing was happening?" my response is, "Somebody is telling us, you just didn't have time to read/watch it because you were too busy watching The Kardashians or tweeting your every thought in 140 characters or less."

It's a two-way street, communication. We can bitch about the quality of media all day long, but as someone else in the media business supposedly once said (referring to TV, but could easily apply to the other media, too):

"Television makes so much money doing its worst that it can't afford to do its best."

I understand the pressures of commerce vs. truth-telling. But I'm always annoyed when we let the audience off the hook and imply that their choices of which media to consume are not choices. There is tons of shit out there in the sparkling, futury, new media dealio called the Internet. People really don't have an excuse for not knowing things, at least if they own and use a computer regularly. Can't say (yet) that the corporations only tell you certain things when the thing you're holding in your hand (your phone, I hope) or the thing you're typing into has Google.

You probably give Joe Average more credit than I do. Most people seem like idiots to me. But I could be wrong. I'd like to be wrong on that one.

Posted by: Slash at October 14, 2011 8:06 PM

One of my greatest joys in life was staying up all night and welcoming in the George Walker Bush Presidency. When a person tell you repeatedly that they are going to do something, sometimes it is best that you listen. George Bush repeatedly said during the run up to his Presidency that he was going to let Wall Street ass fuck the public until Wall Street got tired. Fast forward to about two months ago, Wall Street stopped. And why did they stop? They stopped because they had to put on a new rubber, the one they were using got worn out. And now you have these Tazo Chai Crème Frappuccino drinking, roasted tomato and mozzarella Panini sandwich eating, old navy jeans and hoodie wearing, iphone 4s texting, Vassar college graduating, depleted trust fund assholes blocking traffic down on Wall Street. In a two day old poll over fifty percent of these motherfuckers didn’t even bother to vote in the midterm elections. And now these fuckers are sitting around some park eating pizza as homeless and starving vets walk by the park that they sleep in to find it overrun with fuckers that refused to exercise their right to vote that some poor son of a bitch gave his or her life for.


When a man like John Lewis gets his ass handed to him on a daily basis in the sixties for trying to get the plight of black people noticed, and is denied the chance to speak to a bunch of these motherfuckers in some park in downtown Atlanta. I say fuck the #Occupiers of Wall Street.


Trust me, these Masters of the Universe that run Wall Street are digging in for the long haul because they know that they have a more than a fifty percent chance of things staying the same after the 2012 elections. Every last one of these Republican candidates has said on the record that they are going to take an axe to health care, Roe v Wade, education, EPA, and infrastructure spending, and everything else under the sun that they can get their hands on simply because some of you fuckers don’t vote or some other bullshit like Obama being a secret Muslim loving socialist.


Fucking Tea-Party out their with senior citizens holding up signs reading “get your government hands off my Medicare.” fuckers out their living in trailer parks saying they are Republicans, while the real Republicans with money wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire. Herman Cain leading in the polls, riiiiiiiiiiiiight, that motherfucker couldn’t put two sentences together to save his life, but the Republicans love him because he has no problem going around the country saying that black democrats are brainwashed and racism don’t exist anymore. Yes, that’s the type of motherfucker the Republicans love. Here is a sign that Herman Cain is being used by the Republicans, he has yet to raise any funds whatsoever on his comical run to the White House. Even that crazy broad with the show tunes signing husband raised more money than Cain. I think Romney raised the most with N****rhead in a close second followed by Ron “fuck the government, but so much when I need government funding for my district” Paul.

I got so much more shit to say, but why waste my time on you brain dead motherfuckers.

Posted by: Pookie at October 14, 2011 8:24 PM


To paraphrase Bill Shakespeare,

The occupy movement is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Until they start protesting, and refusing to vote for, a president that proudly accepts campaign donations from the wall street corporations, who hires the head of companies like GE to serve in his cabinet, and gives and promptly loses 535 million to a green company that isn't financially sound and a toxic asset, nothing will change. Or the congress, full of representatives on both sides that accept donations from the wall street corps?

They should could be protest the corrupt unions that pay ridiculous, half million dollar pensions to their heads? (Wha...wha...what?) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44872639/
But they aren't. Wonder why.


Or they could protest their universities who charge ridiculous tuition fees that rise far faster than the incomes of those who attend for all-but-worthless degrees in the arts and humanities. (Yes, the world needs english majors and historians and journalists, but it doesn't hundreds of thousands of them, nor do the jobs for them that don't exist.) Maybe they can protest a neighboring university, since protesting your own university might get you suspended or kicked out. But they're not. For some odd reason.

Or even better, they could protest themselves, who have no one else but themselves to blame when they take out loans for a *insert studies here* degree, get into debt before they're 25, spend beyond their means, buy houses and cars larger than they can afford. Again, no protest there.

Why don't they try protesting without the help of their iphones or smart phones made by wallstreet corporations? Why don't they start a grass roots movement without their twitter and facebook which are owned and operated by corporations? Or sleep on the ground in newspaper and cardboard, instead of a factory made sleeping bag, tent, or clothing made by corporations and sweat shop workers?

Why don't they protest the people who allow the corporations and the guys who run them to have it so easy when it comes to paying taxes? You know, they folks who write the tax code?

Then the accountants who pour over the rules, find the perfectly legal loop holes, and tell their customers about it?

What the hell are they going to change? The system? Is the government going to seriously forgive all debt, or forget about the fact that they signed contracts for mortgages, or enrollment, or car loans? How is that even remotely possible?

Raising taxes on the 1% is going to take care of trillions in government spending and trillions upon trillions in government and personal debt? Really? That's going to fix the shit we're in?

Really?

These occupy people need to wake the hell up and realize that they're not going to change shit. "I'll take my money out of the big bank, and put it in a small one! That'll show em"!"

No, it won't. The big bank will downsize, fire people, and raise their rates. Meanwhile, the small bank, suddenly awash in cash and customers, will no longer be a small bank but a large one, and the cycle will continue.

You. Guys. Aren't. Going. To. Change. Jack. Shit.

You can change your life though. Change your priorities, change your habits, change your lives. Find jobs you don't want, get degrees in things you don't like, and work. The OWS people make it sound like there is not hope in this country.

I say fuck that. Grow a pair, take chances, man up to your mistakes, change your own life.

Be your future, see your future, ma-make your future.


Sorry for the pessimism, but that's reality.

Fundamental change starts from within, and there is no better place to start than the materialistic, greedy and selfish people we ALL are.

They shouldn't be holding picket signs, they should be holding mirrors.

Posted by: Some Guy at October 14, 2011 8:35 PM

The only people that haven’t sold out are the ones that haven’t been offered anything.


Posted by: Pookie at October 14, 2011 8:53 PM

Bravo, Some Guy! Bravo!

Everybody wants a "job."

Not everybody wants to work.

Posted by: , at October 15, 2011 7:48 AM

it's sorta amusing to hear the same exact comments about Occupy wall street as I've heard all summer long during the Tent Protest in Israel (sources tell me it was smiler in Europe as well).
granted here a lot of the press was pro the demonstrations, mainly cause they wanted to piss the government (mainly the personal vendetta of the rich men who owns the news paper and the rich men in the government, well except one rich men who is friend of the Prime minster, he was against the protest)

Posted by: YS at October 15, 2011 9:45 AM

My problem with conservatives ( as if anyone asked) and their anti-big government is that they rail against laws that supposedly threaten their individuality; gun laws, separation of church and state, taxes, free speech, yet in the same breath demand regulations on issues that offend them; abortion, same sex marriage, homosexuality in the military (or anywhere) religions other than christianity, immigration.

They hate the government yet call people un-american when they question the government.

They think anyone who protests against big business doesn't want to work

They think taxes are evil but want the police patrolling their neighborhoods to protect their property

They think the rich shouldn't have to pay their fair share of taxes but are angry when the poor don't

They abhor Obamacare because they feel the only people who should have healthcare are those that can afford it.

No, I'm not a liberal, I'm a moderate Democrat/Republican, which means I can look at both sides of an issue and compromise, but if it came down to who scares me the most, far-left liberals or far-right conservatives, I have to pick the hate-mongering Sarah Palins of the world.

Posted by: kirbyjay at October 15, 2011 10:17 AM

anon33, Go fuck yourself in your butthole, then go get raped in your butthole, then go get fucked in your butthole by some dogs. You have NO FUCKING CLUE or IDEA as to my age, yet because you are obviously one of the GenX/Gen Y/Helicopter Parent progeny filth you presume that you know EVERYTHING and that ONLY YOU and your fellow SCUM know anything worth knowing, and only if said info is on the interwebs.

I will give you a minescule teeny weeny itsy bitsy amount of credit for not even attempting to dispute my absolute truths about the complete and utter 100% failure of the Vietnam era anti-war movement.

But as for my not having to be an asshole vis-a-vie my comments, again, go fuck yourself in your stinking greasy butthole, this time with a frozen aluminum softball bat and shove it in until your colon is pierced. Pajiba's web site proudly proclaims that it is for bitchy people making bitchy comments, so go fuck yourself in said butthole some more with that one and shut the fuck up.

Posted by: The Gong Of Doom at October 15, 2011 11:42 AM

My problem with conservatives (as if anyone asked) and their anti-big government is that they rail against laws that supposedly threaten their individuality; gun laws, separation of church and state, taxes, free speech, yet in the same breath demand regulations on issues that offend them; abortion, same sex marriage, homosexuality in the military (or anywhere) religions other than christianity, immigration.

Depends. "Conservative" isn't a useful word, usually, other than to identify yourself as coopted into being an operative against something or other. "Liberal" isn't a useful word either in the same way, nor is "progressive." Each of these words has stood, and could stand for any of several particular, specific world views & preferences. In practice they don't.

It's worse than that. You can't stop some idiot from calling themselves by your label. You especially can't stop folks who don't like your preferences from yoking you to something distasteful, or even putting on your colors to get you blamed for something they do.

There's a long, lovely history of agent provocateurs and a shorter history of strange bedfellows inspired by their mutual goal of political access.

The consistent folks make poor fodder for the 24-hour conflictinator, and fine distinctions take work, so you're unlikely to hear these on any of the commercial "news" channels.

Really, when I (very) occasionally watch broadcast "news" I find myself flashing back to the wonderful disturbing "family" scenes in Farenheight 451. I get the sense that the folks watching aren't so much taking in information as having a pseudo-conversation with an exquisitely crafted, exquisitely shallow pseudo-family. If the medium is the message I wonder how much the mechanics of modern broadcast news has turned it into a drug.

Posted by: BierceAmbrose at October 15, 2011 3:57 PM

BTW, lovely discussion folks. Bitchy only comes from disappointment in potential unrealized, and scathing takes both work and intelligence.

If we're linking to original sources, someone might have linked to the Santelli rant for the Tea Party.

There's FOX constructing by omission a narrative about dirty, smelly, hippies with free drugs, random sex and no particular agenda - catering to their perceived base, one might say. No need to engage in the same tactic.

Posted by: BierceAmbrose at October 15, 2011 4:11 PM

Yes, some of the protesters are lazy, self-styled hippies. You can't have a protest without them showing up, just like you can't have a Tea Party rally without some racists tagging along. So what? That doesn't speak at all to the validity of the problem being protested.

The thing is, the concerned Occupiers and the Tea Partiers should be able to find common ground on the issue of extreme wealth disparity and the endemic lack of up-by-your-bootstraps societal potential it creates.

Posted by: sansho1 at October 15, 2011 5:27 PM

It would be interesting to see the 1 Percent decide to cancel all endowments and donations and demand refunds for those already made to institutions of higher learning. Like this Dietrich fellow, a steel industry executive who just died, giving $265 million to Carnegie-Mellon University, $125 million to the University of Pittsburgh, $12.5 million to Duquesne University and $5 million to Chatham College. He's probably just the kind of greedy corporate lackey the protesters despise.

This is from The New York Times, a notably right-wing mouthpiece:

"Thirty percent of charitable giving comes from the richest 1 percent of the population, which includes many Wall Street professionals, according to FSG Social Impact Advisers in Boston."

That was in 2008, anyway, before the shit hit the fan.

Just sayin'.

Posted by: , at October 16, 2011 11:07 AM

You do realize why the top 1% give money do you not? (I'm talking in generalizations of course, since you are yourself). It's because of a) Tax deductions and b) influence. Don't you find it odd that Carneige Mellon can get that much in donations and still charge students $42,000+ a year on tuition?? And they can afford to give that much because they HAVE that much. Is $265 million really a lot when you are worth billions? How about the person who gives all they have even though they have nothing?

It's foolish to stick up for greed. It makes no sense.

Anyways, Amen Mr. Murray.

Posted by: Littlejon2001 at October 16, 2011 4:16 PM

@sansho1

What you said. Exactly so.

The Tea Party folks are at least as appalled at GE's tax rate as the OWS people. One could even say they got there first. I wonder if perhaps the biggest hoodwinking that goes on is the making of polarized opposites where there is in reality lots of common ground.

/Side note
In a piece of serendipity, here's Aldus Huxley in the news talking about hoodwinking the sheeple in an old interview on Brave New World:
http://www.tnr.com/video/fiction/96230/aldous-huxley-brave-new-world-and-1984

Posted by: BierceAmbrose at October 16, 2011 7:14 PM

Littlejon,

Yeah, so? You'd rather they just keep it all to themselves, or keep it in their families, and never have an incentive to give any of it away?

I don't know what CMU is going to do with the money; I doubt it will go to give anyone a tuition break (unless it goes for scholarships). What I DO know is that universities (especially urban ones like CMU, Pitt and Duquesne) often have extensive, valuable land holdings on which they pay ZERO taxes while they gouge students for $42,000-a-year tuition. Hence my question above: Why aren't the OWS people camped on campus?

There's a pretty obvious answer, which I'm sure you know, but the same thing can apply to corporations: If they get taxed more, they'll simply pass the cost along and fuck the consumer even more, just like colleges would jack up tuition even further if they had to pay real estate taxes. But if you're a student and not a stockbroker, it's easier to bite the hand that doesn't feed (except, in many ways, it probably does).

Posted by: , at October 16, 2011 11:11 PM

No, the Gong of Doom, it's eloquent rage you're looking for. Interesting and amusing insults that show some sort of functioning intellect behind the fury - don't just froth like a rabid dog being repeatedly tazered.

Posted by: Ender at October 17, 2011 5:25 AM

Not that anyone here gives a crap about females or feminism, but:
http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/anarchist-politics-inform-occupy-wall-street/

Posted by: StickIt at October 17, 2011 4:22 PM

Yep, we're just a bunch of macho men doing manly things here StickIt. You have this place bang to rights. You're not dribblingly stupid and off base.

Posted by: Ender at October 19, 2011 5:23 AM

Lolroffle. Just been over to your link and it is dribblingly stupid. Wow. Did you know that men are evil and never let women be anything except mastubatory aids? And that women are so incapable and powerless that they cannot be anything but mastubatory aids unless they organise seperately from men?

That woman really hates women. And men.

Posted by: Ender at October 19, 2011 5:28 AM

It's like comedy gold. Try reading the comments!

'men have dirty hands and should not be involved. the fact of their dirty hands alone should be enough'

Posted by: Ender at October 19, 2011 5:33 AM

I really enjoy Herman Cain. It is unfortunate that these women can come out of the woodwork and lob these accusations against him. No matter what party you are affilaited with no one deserves to be falsly accused. I don't know if he did it or not but it seems very strange.

Posted by: Houston Tax Lawyers at November 10, 2011 11:12 AM

Rauchen unter der Dusche? Ja, mit der Supersmoker!

Posted by: Alvaro Vitale at November 24, 2011 6:55 AM