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Entirely Too Much Attention To Detail: The True Love Edition

By C. Robert Dimitri | Posted Under Think Pieces | Comments (34)



Princess2_L.jpg

The aim here is not to nitpick or criticize. It is simply to indulge in affectionate thought experiments and tangents related to movies that I have enjoyed over the years. What are the unspoken motivations, the unexplored avenues, and the seemingly insignificant details that lie between the frames? Oh, and if you have not seen the movies I write about in this column, you are a little behind the times, but I offer a spoiler warning regardless.

The Princess Bride

This is a perfect movie. I would not dare to suggest changing a single moment of it. Nevertheless, there is one detail in the story that has always bothered me. I hope you do not deem it sacrilegious, but I wanted Inigo Montoya to win that duel with Westley.

Westley_and_Inigo_duel.jpgPerhaps “wanting” Inigo to win is not that unsurprising and even a common viewer impulse. At that point in the story, we have much more reason to like Inigo personally. He shares fun, joking banter with Fezzik. Neither he nor Fezzik seems inclined to harm Buttercup; they are mercenaries who have fallen under the employ of the unsavory Vizzini. Inigo treats Westley with respect in helping him to peak the Cliffs Of Insanity and giving him ample time to rest for an honorably conducted duel. Most significantly, he tells Westley his life’s quest to avenge his father’s murder. If that story did not put you in Inigo’s corner, then what would?

What about Westley? At that point in the story, he is not even Westley; he is only the mysterious Man In Black. One might assume he is going to free Buttercup from these kidnappers, but initially we do not know what his motive is. In the scene with Inigo, we find that he is as polite and honorable as Inigo is, but is that appealing personality enough to trump Inigo’s story about his father? Maybe you could guess that the Man In Black actually is Westley; maybe when you first saw the movie you recognized that was Cary Elwes. Certainly on repeat viewings the “true love” element is a powerful incentive in the narrative.

Throwing out all those factors, the element that irks me is still present. Inigo has been studying swordplay for twenty years. It is a discipline that has received his complete dedication over that span. His lagging search for Count Rugen prompted him to take up other jobs (primarily as a mercenary useful for his swordsmanship) and even turn to drinking, but he had still devoted an extraordinary amount of time to the craft. We can assume he certainly went well beyond the “10,000 hours to mastery” rule originated by Herb Simon and recently popularized by Malcolm Gladwell.

In contrast, what has Westley been doing? He worked as a “farm boy,” fetching pitchers of water for Buttercup while mooning over her. Then he spent five years acquiring his heroic skills on Dread Pirate Roberts’ ship Revenge. This obviously included fencing practice, but - as Westley tells us - he spent much of that time learning other trades as well. No, Westley did not “dedicate his life” to fencing in this already shorter span of time, and the evidence we are given indicates that in five years the experience Westley acquired would be dwarfed by that of Inigo.

What happens when these two great masters battle? They are both exceptionally skilled, but Westley essentially dominates him. Certainly, Inigo holds the advantage when he fights right-handed against Westley’s left hand, but otherwise the duel is barely even close. Westley blatantly toys with Inigo and disarms him with ease.

I could justify this many ways. Westley is younger. Westley had better teachers. Westley is innately more talented. Westley is motivated by true love, which trumps the motive of revenge in the world of storytelling and could provide Westley with a superhuman adrenal surge. The flow of the duel itself, its choreography, and the accompanying repartee are supremely entertaining for viewers, and that is what matters most from a cinematic standpoint.

Nevertheless, as someone who would like to attach superseding value to practice and hard work, it still bothers me. Based on the empirical evidence, Inigo should have prevailed, or he at least should have given Westley a more competitive fight.

When Harry Met Sally…

Harry: “Like the other night. I made love to this woman, and it was so incredible, I took her to a place that wasn’t human. She actually meowed.”

Jess: “You made a woman meow?”

Harry: “Yeah. That’s the point - I can say these things to her. And the great thing is I don’t have to lie, because I’m not always thinking about how to get her into bed. I can just be myself.”

Jess: “You made a woman meow?”

That is a great comedic beat in a film brimming with them. I thought there was more to it, though. There is something extra underlying the incredulity and admiration expressed by Bruno Kirby’s Jess in that moment at the batting cage. Harry casually bandies about his ability to transform women into anthropomorphized felines at the moment of orgasm. This inducement might be representative of the upper end of his sexual prowess, but he was not surprised by it. In contrast, Jess fixates on this detail as being exceptionally beyond the norm. Jess wants to know how to make a woman meow.

meow.jpgJess might feel awkward asking Harry for more information, so I imagine that he follows the scant clues available and scours the New York streets in an effort to track down Harry’s meowing date. What exact technique did Harry employ? Maybe it was not Harry specifically. Does she always meow to express her pleasure in bed? Does she tell her partners how to bring it out of her?

Jess’ search culminates in his finding the meowing woman’s apartment. He is surprised to find that someone else has been searching for the meowing woman, as they arrive simultaneously at her door. “Older Woman Customer” played by Estelle Reiner (she of the “I’ll have what she’s having” line) has also heard this tale of a woman that meows during sex. The story has been making the rounds through the city, and Rob Reiner’s mother’s character also seeks counsel for better orgasms.

The meowing woman politely greets them and reveals information that should come as no surprise: her caterwauling is an elaborate case of faking it. Jess is relieved to learn that his sexual abilities are not as far behind average as he had feared, and the disappointed Older Woman Customer - recently duped by Sally into a lunch order that was far lacking in the expected inspiration - must continue her search for greater sexual satisfaction.

Feeling remorseful toward the men she has deceived - even if her action was a deception borne of good intentions - and regretting the trouble of Jess’ epic city-spanning odyssey, meowing woman offers him the gauche wagon wheel coffee table that an ex-boyfriend left at her place. Jess quite likes the wagon wheel coffee table, and it seems a good souvenir to ease any doldrums when Harry next makes him feel inadequate with tales of sexual exploits.

I have watched this film many times, but what was the detail I only just noticed this time? The scene with Sally’s fake orgasm at the diner followed immediately after the scene at the batting cage. This seems a clear indicator that although meowing inhuman heights could be reachable during sex, Harry did not attain them. Perhaps I too was blinded by that holy grail of orgasmic meowing.


Say Anything

I first watched Say Anything on either a Friday or Saturday night back in late 1989 or early 1990. There were three or four male friends with me in that living room along with that rented VHS copy, and although I was interested in seeing the movie, I do recall a self-conscious twinge among us over a group of young high school guys staying in to view what vaguely resembled some sort of “chick flick.”

Say_Anything.jpgDespite that non-ideal audience, the quality of the film won us over. I would later designate Say Anything my first-string “third date movie,” although I did not have the opportunity to put that role to the test very often.

At this point in the story I should note that the timing of the video release of Say Anything coincided roughly with the popularization of television picture-in-picture technology, and my friend’s television had this feature. To lighten the mood (and perhaps as the story progressed to conceal the fact that at least a couple guys in that room wanted to be Lloyd Dobler and were falling for Diane Court), someone periodically used the remote to freeze images from the film, which could then be bounced from corner to corner of the screen and be the subject of MST3K-esque riffs. Once our amusement with a particular image was complete (e.g., Eric Stoltz in that rooster outfit), we would move on to the next one.

The game ended quite abruptly when Diane dumped Lloyd in the front seat of his blue Malibu. He gave her his heart, she gave him a pen, and we froze that image of John Cusack’s face as simulated heartbreak struck. One of us immediately coined that picture-within-picture of a crushed visage to be “Lloyd’s hurt face in the corner.” In hindsight I do not know exactly why that gave us so much entertainment, but we left that image on the screen for the remainder of the entire movie. Perhaps it was a badge of investment in the film and its emotions; we could not simply dismiss Lloyd’s devastation as we had those other prior fleeting frozen moments. Say Anything had achieved resonance, and “Lloyd’s hurt face in the corner” encapsulated that.

Amidst the Bavarian Dutch style pretzels, the kickboxing, the school counselor who kicks back with the students at the graduation party, Corey’s 63 songs about Joe, John Mahoney’s terrific performance as Diane’s father, Lloyd’s desire not to buy, sell, or process anything, that boom box playing Peter Gabriel, that pitch-perfect seat-belt-light-ding ending, and many other details that make this one of my favorite movies, it has always been “Lloyd’s hurt face in the corner” that stands out first in my mind. I invite you to look upon that image now; gaze upon the depth of Lloyd’s pain in that moment with a scrutiny that you never have before.

C. Robert Dimitri first saw The Princess Bride in a theater with a few of his elementary school friends, after reading a retelling of it in a Scholastic Scope magazine. As for When Harry Met Sally, that viewing was with a group of male and female high school friends, who called it an evening over the course of the movie (I still do not know why they did not want to see it through to the end) leaving only him and his soon-to-be girlfriend from those bygone days to watch the conclusion. You know the Say Anything story. C. ROBERT DIMITRI WILL RETURN IN ENTIRELY TOO MUCH ATTENTION TO DETAIL - THE SCI-FI PETS EDITION.









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Comments

I agree that Inigo should have won. I don't much care for the tendency in recent fiction to have characters so wildly talented that they don't have to work very hard to achieve great things. I think it sends a bad message to young people.

Posted by: Todd at April 14, 2011 3:02 PM

C. ROBERT DIMITRI WILL RETURN IN ENTIRELY TOO MUCH ATTENTION TO DETAIL - THE SCI-FI PETS EDITION.

Yes please! Do Cat from Alien!

Posted by: Anna von Beav at April 14, 2011 3:13 PM

I have always thought John Mahoney's reaction when Diane confronts him about the stolen money was brilliant. Man, that movie is awesome, I think I'll watch with the boyf tonight.

Posted by: TheEmpress at April 14, 2011 3:13 PM

The Princess Bride

One of my classmates is a hardcore crammer and no matter how much some us study, he'd still get a higher score and better retention. Some people are just more adept. Btw, that dude topped the Lawyer's Bar Exam and was Valedictorian in Law School. I really don't find a problem with the gifted angle.

Also, in my opinion, you would probably have to be a context-less and totally genre ignorant to not have thought that the man in black was Westley. Even 9 and 8 year old kids figured it was Westley.

The fact is, Inigo knew Buttercup was going to be murdered. He was going to let that happen. He was even helping towards that end. Politeness and being hired to do it does not exactly make me more sympathetic to him.

Posted by: arrrghzi at April 14, 2011 3:21 PM

Not to mention that to be the "Dred Pirate Roberts" means that Westley spent at least 5 years murdering people and stealing their things. Hardly an honorable guy. Plus, he never bothered to tell buttercup he was alive.

Posted by: kerminy at April 14, 2011 3:23 PM

Perhaps the reason Westley fought better had less to do with training and more to do with motivation? Inigo has no real personal investment in the outcome of the duel--yes, he wants to win, and yes, he wants to be paid and not killed. Westley, however, is fighting for "true love" and is perhaps--at least in context--favored?

Posted by: Siege at April 14, 2011 3:39 PM

arrrghzi >> I'll accept that Westley is simply more talented, but I find this at odds with the portrayal of the duel itself. Their banter indicates not that these guys are where they are because of gifted natures but moreso because of their diligence.

Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capo Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro. Don’t you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.

As for your other point, I do not think that you can definitively say that Inigo knew that Buttercup was going to be murdered. Fezzik and Inigo are oblivious certainly and guilty to some extent for not further researching the grander aims of their employers (shades of Kevin Smith's Death Star contractors), but would they stand by and watch her be murdered in cold blood? I find that difficult to believe, particularly as Vizzini had only just promised that no harm would come to her in the Screaming Eels scene. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that Inigo and Fezzik thought this was a ransom and nothing more.

Anna von Beav >> We are on the same page.

Posted by: C. Robert Dimitri at April 14, 2011 3:40 PM

Huh, I do this too. Could C. Robert Dimitri possibly have a touch of Asperger's, as well?

Anyway, I always make up a story in my head for what happened AFTER the ending. I've done it for Say Anything, Valley Girl, and believe it or not, Leaving Las Vegas, among others.

Posted by: Snuggiepants at April 14, 2011 3:40 PM

I was watching a recent Star Wars film with my brother and much younger cousin. My brother started to nit-pick about a small inconsistency (midichlorians or something similar) and the 4-year old turned to him and said, "It's just a movie."

Posted by: Optimus Rhyme at April 14, 2011 3:42 PM

I always liked what Carrie Fisher's character says whenever Sally tells that her boyfriend won't leave his wife for her:

"You're right, you're right. I know you're right"

in this rote, repetitive way, clearly not even listening to herself.

Posted by: mswas at April 14, 2011 4:04 PM

Carrie Fisher is an underrated actress, mswas. I also really like her turn in The Burbs. (Now, there's a movie whose depths one could plumb.)

I have to say, even with the emphasis being on their mutual training, the fact that Westley is more gifted at fencing (and more deliberate, and just smarter) than Inigo is clearly what makes his victory so easy. His natural talent wouldn't matter at all if he didn't study. A genius is only genius because of how they put into action the things they've learned. Also, Westley later tells Buttercup about his trials and tribulations as a prisoner and then mate (and then captain) on the Revenge, which sounded a lot more focused and intense than the leisurely 20 years Inigo had to practice.

Your When Harry Met Sally riff confuses me... I thought the orgasm/diner scene was earlier in the film, when they were still in college and on that roadtrip? No? It's been a while since I've seen it.

Oh, and I'm disappointed you didn't round this out as a Reiner Trifecta. Surely, there's got to be something bugging you about, This Is Spinal Tap, Stand By Me, Misery, or North. (Everyone likes North, right?)

Posted by: RobP at April 14, 2011 4:33 PM

I have no problem with Westley winning.

To me, and likely this was intentional, The Princess Bride plays with fairy tale tropes, and one such classic trope is bound up with the identity of The Hero: the hero is clever, strong, wise, and is able to defeat obstacles and challengers in matches that, on their face, he really shouldn't have a chance in. The three "duels" against Inigo, Fezzik, and Vizzini set up The Man In Black/Roberts/Westley as being 1. skilled and strong, 2. strategically clever, and 3. wise. Also, Westley's The Hero, and that means he has to win, and beat Humperdink, and live happily ever after. Just like Fred Savage said!

Another trope they play with is that of the Masked Man. It's common enough in a lot of stories, and like in the movie, as often as not it's blaringly obvious who The Masked Man is because of his actions. In the movie, it's so obvious that it's a joke that you just take it for granted and play along. But that doesn't stop you from assuming his motive is to rescue Buttercup; there's not a lot of mystery at play here.

Ultimately, if the movie is telling a story that adheres to fairy tail rules, The Hero (Westley) has to win. Also, Inigo needs to lose here so you can set up his spiral into depression, drunken stupor, and redemption by badassery that makes this film so epic. Not to mention, it makes for kind of a dull story if Westley is impaled on a rapier or otherwise incapacitated thirty minutes into the film.

I'm sure a lot of you are going "well, duh, of course it was necessary for the plot", but we have to remember that for this film, fairy tale rules supersede logical expecations, and that's what makes it great.

Posted by: StoatCat at April 14, 2011 4:41 PM

@Optimus Rhyme. Think of something you're passionate about. A particular song, a book, a sport maybe. Now stick "It's just a..." in front of it. People are gonna be obsessive about things. Especially about things that are meaningful to them.

That said, I chuckled at the image of your brother getting pwned by a four year old.

Posted by: Villain's Minion at April 14, 2011 4:44 PM

After reading this and thinking about the duel again, I think my ultimate interpretation is that Inigo doesn't really want to win. He flat out says that the job for Vizzini is just a paycheck. He's either consciously or subconsciously slacking.

Posted by: Angeleno Ewok at April 14, 2011 4:53 PM

I have this issue with a number of martial arts films. It's the Karate Kid Syndrome. I know that the film is showing the plucky underdog, but really the backbone of combat training is grueling repetition and it's just tough to watch someone being rewarded because they are the chosen one, or the child of destiny, or just full of protagonist vim and vigor. Shouldn't the poor schlub who gives up nights and weekends, gets beaten and bloodied and spends hours working on the basics get rewarded for all that sweat equity. Bruce Lee said (I'm paraphrasing) "I do not fear the man who practices 10,000 punches: I fear the man who practices one punch 10,000 times."

Posted by: Mrcreosote at April 14, 2011 5:06 PM

Mr. Dimitri, I am going to have to formally and completely disagree with you. Inigo most certainly DID know Vizzini was going to kill Buttercup. To wit:

Vizzini: Oh, the sot has spoken. What happens to her is not truly your concern. I will kill her. And remember this, never forget this: when I found you, you were so slobbering drunk, you couldn't buy Brandy!

Inigo didn't like it, nor did Fezzik, but despite their objections, they still continued to work for Vizzini. This implies tacit permission. Not well done of them - the duel went as it should have, in my opinion.

Posted by: noodlestein at April 14, 2011 5:10 PM

Inigo totally threw the fight.
Guilty conscience or what have you.
He was on the wrong path, being a mercenary and that weakened him and dulled his swordsmanship.
The fight with Westley set him on the rocky road to redemption.

Posted by: Odnon at April 14, 2011 5:21 PM

noodlestein >> You're right about that. My mistake. I had forgotten that line. That said, I would still maintain that Fezzik and Inigo are in denial about the dark side of their profession.

StoatCat >> Well said. And as I said up front, I wouldn't change a thing about this movie. I'm only saying that Inigo's loss to Westley bothers me on this specific level, and that's where the "entirely too much" part of this column comes into play (that I hope somewhat transforms into tongue-in-cheek entertainment in the reading).

RobP >> The diner scene follows immediately after the batting cage scene. Jess meets Carrie Fisher's Marie a couple scenes later (after the first New Year's Eve scene between Harry and Sally).

Additional Personal Disclosure >> I'm going to blame my first exposure to The Princess Bride for my allowing any question about the identity of the Man In Black to play into this. That Scholastic Scope textual retelling made it into a mystery. (I have forgotten how Goldman revealed it in the book.)

Posted by: C. Robert Dimitri at April 14, 2011 5:37 PM

And building on that denial, it could in fact be that Inigo's guilty conscience (as mentioned by Odnon) was finally triggered by Vizzini's outburst into action (or inaction).

That said, I don't think it's Westley's fencing superiority that bothers me. It's clean and satisfying storytelling to have him best Inigo, Fezzik, and Vizzini in their respective disciplines (as reiterated later by Inigo when they want to storm the castle). It's simply my hang-up about what I perceive as a training disparity and the lack of justice therein. Of course, I'm sure Peter Falk's grandfather would sagely tell me that we can't expect the world to be entirely just.

Posted by: C. Robert Dimitri at April 14, 2011 5:41 PM

I watched Say Anything for the first time in awhile a couple of weeks ago.

I didn't think it was possible but I fell even more in love with it.

So, so good, also I just think that Cameron Crowe is an excellent writer.

Posted by: grace b at April 14, 2011 6:08 PM

I'd just like to thank CRD and Noodlestein for the quotes in the comments. I couldn't help but read them in the character's voices and it made me smile. Or think I smiled anyway. My face is numb from the dentist so more than likely I merely lifted my lip slightly.

Posted by: Paultera at April 14, 2011 6:17 PM

Re: The Princess Bride... in the book, Inigo could have won at any moment in the beginning, and had Westley several times. He was so good he was just enjoying having fun. The fact he was hung over did not help. By the time he made the switch to his right hand and decided it was time to do Westley in it was too late, Westley had an advantage... no one would dare say Westley was stronger then Fezzik simply because Westley won. Westley was NOT better then the Wizard Inigo.

NOT BETTER, but the win still makes sense. It also was a major reason why Inigo decides to find the man in black and make him the new leader after Vizzinis death. Westley has the same gift Vizzini did... he is intelligent and has nerve/motivation.

Posted by: Theresa at April 14, 2011 7:06 PM

@RobP: I am sure you were kidding, but North remains a childhood favorite of mine. I am terrified of re watching it, in case it really is as horrible as they say, but I have nothing but fond memories of what I can remember.

Posted by: Theresa at April 14, 2011 7:14 PM

Theresa >> Thank you for that. It has been many years since I read the book, and I only read it once. I was wondering about the differences in the duel between Inigo and Westley. Also, that's a good point about Fezzik; the result was not indicative of Westley's superior brute strength.

Posted by: C. Robert Dimitri at April 14, 2011 7:29 PM

Or rather, the result did not imply that Westley had superior brute strength.

Posted by: C. Robert Dimitri at April 14, 2011 7:30 PM

We are on the same page.

Yaaaaaaaay!

Posted by: Anna von Beav at April 14, 2011 9:14 PM

This doen't really come through in the movie, but in the book its pretty clear that a) Inigo's drinking took a really big toll on him and b) he was still more skilled, particularly on the uneven terrain, but Westley was simply faster and stronger. I think its curious that you don't feel the same way about the fight with Fezzik. Is it because his backstory never really gets told? I always found him way more sympathetic, mostly because its Andre the Giant, who is way too awesome to loose a fight to a little pipsqueak like Westley.

Posted by: blocksmash at April 14, 2011 9:26 PM

Think of something you're passionate about. A particular song, a book, a sport maybe. Now stick "It's just a..." in front of it. People are gonna be obsessive about things. Especially about things that are meaningful to them.

Posted by: Villain's Minion at April 14, 2011 4:44 PM

This is an excellent way of phrasing that particular viewpoint. I'm one of those people who can't "turn my brain off" even when others say "it's only a movie". Now I'm going to use this comeback. Thanks.

Posted by: Uriah Creep at April 14, 2011 9:55 PM

It's fun reading all the different commenters' interpretations/explanations of scene and story minutae in films like 'Princess Bride', which obviously has some really hardcore fans around here; but 'Bride' is just as obviously known amongst the majority of film viewers as a very well-made movie, with fine writing, smart acting, etc, whether it suits one's own subjective sense of humor or not. So that alone validates the thoughtful dissecting of a single scene from this movie.

But right now, I personally would deeply appreciate reading Snuggiepants' made-up "story... for what happened AFTER the ending-- for... believe it or not, Leaving Las Vegas."

Now THAT'S such a genuinely shitty movie, even Snuggiepants' "after the ending" story could only be an improvement on the original and depressingly wretched screenplay, and I'd gladly remember THAT one instead, just for my bruised memory's sake.

Posted by: Tony at April 15, 2011 1:32 AM

Inigo was probably drunk. He has the crazy drunk hair thing going on.

Posted by: Jo at April 15, 2011 1:49 AM

"Leaving Las Vegas. Now THAT'S such a genuinely shitty movie"

Whut!

Don't be crazy.

But I would like to hear Snuggiepants' after-the-end ending.

Posted by: Ender at April 15, 2011 4:49 AM

Oh, I got the tongue-in-cheek part. I just have an obsessive need to get my point across. I think I'm in a good place for that :-)

Posted by: StoatCat at April 15, 2011 8:22 AM

I always got the feeling that Inigo threw the fight, because he deepdown felt that killing Buttercup was wrong. For whatever reason, I don't mind that Inigo lost the fight with The Dread Pirate Roberts, as long as he won the fight with the six fingered man. MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY FATHER. PREPARE TO DIE.

Posted by: BWeaves at April 15, 2011 10:48 AM

I always thought that Westley's mask was some sort of precious DnD artifact, giving him +20 to all skills and +4 to all attributes. The second he takes off his mask is when he starts to lose it, and screws himself in the fire swamp.

Posted by: Trey at April 16, 2011 11:42 AM