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Screw the Squeaky Wheel, I Spread My Grease Around

By Steven Lloyd Wilson | Posted Under Think Pieces | Comments (49)



bender_protest.jpg

The Westboro Baptist Church is a malignant and cancerous offshoot disowned by any Christian organization fit to show its face in public. It’s the sort of inverted theology that manages to twist “turn the other cheek” into a euphemism for telling people to kiss your ass. They’re quite frankly abominable human beings, who have twisted every essential message of love in their religion of choice into a commandment of judgment and hatred. One of their most enduring trademarks has been the protesting of the funerals of individuals with whom they disagree. The infamous “God Hates Fags” signs made their appearance outside the funerals of as varied a list of individuals as Mr. Rogers, Matthew Shepard and Iraq War veterans. The organization is hardly even an organization so much as a particularly malicious island of a family. Its membership is little more than the extended family of Fred Phelps, the aging patriarch and preacher of the church.

There’s a fascinating dichotomy to Phelps, one neither he nor his family seems to ponder much. He was a civil rights attorney during the sixties, famed for taking on the most difficult cases in the war for equal rights for all races. But blacks are different than gays, the family insists. Being black is not a choice, they say, being gay is. They hit Comic-Con last weekend, with the tenuous rationale that Jesus was the only true hero and that everyone was wasting time reading comic books. There were some other half-hearted stabs at idol worship and such.

One could tear to shreds these rationalities with laughable ease. Jesus the only hero? What about Moses? Abraham? Paul? Idol worship? Come now, it’s not that difficult to distinguish between enjoying something and worshiping it, else there would be a half dozen nascent religions in every household in the country. But then to the Westboro sort, that’s exactly the problem. Love ice cream? Don’t enjoy it too much. Love sports? Same thing. Love to read? There’s only one book worth reading.

Among certain ascetic fanatics there is a deep conviction that anything people enjoy must be tinged with sin. God created the world, filled it with enjoyable things, and then told you not to touch any of them. If that’s your mindset, then Lucifer’s rebellion makes more and more sense. Imagine the terrible tragedy of a universe with a tyrant for a creator, no escape, no recourse but to follow the irrational rules and hope you make it out the other side. You vilify and tear down anyone not toeing the line, because you live in terror of the insolent drawing the attention of the warden’s indiscriminate boot. It’s the world view of a four year old with an abusive father.

So Westboro shows up for a scheduled 45 minutes of protesting. There are only four of them, with four or five signs strapped to each of them to increase their mileage. Only a couple of the signs even have the remotest thing to do with Comic-Con, the rest are about God hating gays, one’s a slur about Obama. There are ten uniformed police officers surrounding Westboro’s fantastic four. I show one of the officers my press badge and ask if I can get through their line to ask a few questions, but he turns me away. About a hundred counter protesters holding up all manner of nonsensical signs from “God hates Kittens” to “Kill All Humans.” A counter protester leads a chant at one point “what do we want? Gay sex! When do we want it? Now!” It’s a bunch of disparate individuals trying to be funny, but it’s precisely the right response. Spewed rational vehemence only causes purveyors of irrational hatred to dig their hooves in harder. But laughing at them? Saints Stewart and Colbert will be giving the benediction. Westboro doesn’t make it fifteen minutes before they storm off in a huff.

Throughout the Convention there are also guys standing on the street corners with “Only Jesus Saves” signs passing out fliers. There’s an eighteen wheeler driving around, with a symbol of the Hollywood sign crossed out and the caption “Jesus Christ is Savior not a Swear Word.”

The counterarguments to their silliness are irrelevant, because their actions were never guided by their reasons any way. Whatever rationality you use to convey the wrongness of an idea, there will be another layer of rationality, until you finally peel away down to the rotten core and find it’s empty. It’s turtles all the way down, you see.

When you strip away all of the trappings of science, the labs and experiments, the technology and toys, it is a very simple idea. It is the simple acceptance of the idea that I might be wrong. That’s the method, the simple kernel of humility that is at odds with the cliché of power mad scientists brewing their tech like witches at a cauldron. It’s the rejection of the ages old notion of faith: I cannot be wrong.

Take a Bible for a moment and look at it. It is one of the most beautiful artifacts of the human race, not because it’s truth, or God’s word, or any of the other myriad roles attributed to it by adherents. That stack of pages, translated from one language to another over the millennia is the history of a people. It’s the ultimate and nigh on impossible achievement of a pre-industrial society. For over a thousand years, as empires rose and fell, creating art and letting it scatter to the wind once the next upstart raised an army, this little group of people managed to retain and pass on the scraps of their identity. Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Romans … how little do we have of their collected works, and how many people read what there is? But there in the Bible are the poems, stories, histories, and legends of an ancient people, copied and recopied by hand for centuries. As a writer, as a thinking person, there is something almost unspeakably holy about what that stack of pages represents. I’m far from a religious man, hell, my first article on this site was about the spirituality of atheism. Every bit of that tome is a testament to a people’s dedication to creation, which is exactly what Comic-Con exists to celebrate.

On Saturday night of the convention I go to the mixer for the Christian Comic Arts Society. They go around the room, everyone introducing themselves, what comics they’re interested in. About fifty people are there, including Batman and Link. I introduce myself as press, explain why I’m there. I’m the only press in the room, even though a tenth as many people drew dozens of reporters earlier because they held up signs of hate instead of love. It’s a brief and friendly affair, they hold a raffle for an autographed cover print of the “Action Bible.”

I talk afterwards very briefly to Batman, but he’s a man of few words so I spoke to Buzz Dickson and Scott Shuford for quite a while instead.

“Just to be belligerent,” I say, “What do you think about Jack Chick tracts?”

There’s a painful wince by both men. “Well we love Jack …” Scott says and goes on to explain that while some of the tracts are helpful by rendering ideas in a compelling way, most of them are just “not good scholarship.”

“So D&D isn’t real and destroying my soul?” I ask.

Buzz laughs, “I worked at TSR on D&D.”

“What about comics that delve into extended Christian mythology?” I ask. “Lucifer, Hellblazer, that sort of thing?”

They mention Hellboy and say “I may not agree with it, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t enjoy it.”

I ask about what they would say to people who see Christian comic books as just awkwardly grafting two unrelated concepts together and we have an interesting discussion about the role of other similar phenomena like Christian rock, Christian rap, Christian video games, etc. The misunderstanding is that these are intended at all as a replacement. The impulse is not that good Christians should listen to only Christian rock, so much as that Christian rock can show Christians with biases against rock in general that the art form is not inherently bad. “In a perfect world, there wouldn’t need to be Christian subgenres because people would judge art on its own merits.”

They talk about how they have a booth this year across from the Gay and Lesbian Comics Collective, and that people assume that they must be offended or hostile. They talk about how they are good friends with Diablo Publishing after having a booth next to them a few years back, still emailing and playing pranks on each other at the conventions. “Christ didn’t picket. He hung out with the sinners.”

Steven Lloyd Wilson is a hopeless romantic and the last scion of Norse warriors and the forbidden elder gods. His novel, ramblings, and assorted fictions coalesce at www.burningviolin.com. You can email him here.









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Comments

Jesus Was Way Cool?

I'm both deeply spiritual, and deeply suspicious of people who hate fun.

Posted by: twig at July 28, 2010 3:16 PM

Another solid piece SLW.

I'm always amused by those people that picket haunted houses on Halloween. Or that stand in protest outside a mall during Christmas reminding you to "keep Christ in Christmas".

Are people really that sure that everything in their life is so perfect that they should tell me how to live mine? And what kind of God do they believe in that fun and humor are anathema to faith?

Posted by: Fredo at July 28, 2010 3:19 PM

Take a Bible for a moment and look at it.

This paragraph made me breathless and a little dizzy. Also, it made me feel sexy feelings.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverdouche at July 28, 2010 3:21 PM

Brilliantly written sir. Thoughtful, insightful, and what should be trumpeted from pulpit to lectern, over the pews and seminary pupils.

I also appreciated the promotion of Mssrs Colbert and Stewart from the ranks of comic genius to sainthood. Well done!

Posted by: lordhelmet at July 28, 2010 3:28 PM

I agree that the book has some beautiful passages in it. However, it also has some downright terrible parts, namely descriptions of genocide and god's approval of it. I would be happy if people calling themselves Christians would read the book more often and dwell on these passages as well. They form just as important part as the nice Love-thy-neighbour bits.
The reason that this particular book has been read more than for example Greek mythology (which in my opinion is much more poetic and definitely more original) are simply historical and political circumstances. If things have panned out a bit differently, we could have been a society which worships Jupiter or Ares...

Posted by: astounded at July 28, 2010 3:33 PM

Wow. Great article. "He hung out with the sinners." Cause sinners are much more fun!

Posted by: dammitjanet at July 28, 2010 3:42 PM

The Westboro Baptist Church came to protest at the Jewish college I work at. Three adults, a teenager and two kids. I was curious as to why the kids were not at school (they attend public school, you can watch their documentary "The Most Hated Family in America" on youtube for free.) They stomped on the Israeli and American flags (the school knew what they were about so there was no fighting, just a silent vigil across the street), and they changed the words to the Beatles "Hey Jude" to "God Hates Jews." It was so random most of us were laughing.

I left the Catholic Church a long time ago and I still get hostile when people rub their religion into my face and cross boundaries. That's why I love my Jewish friends--they do their thing and are taught not to prosthelytize.

I found a brand new full length Bible laying on top of a closed Dumpster near my house a few months ago. I didn't think it would be right to throw it away (I think throwing ANY book away is a sin!) so I keep it in the magazine rack in the bathroom. I feel it's the type of book you can open anywhere, read a bit, then put it down.

Posted by: scorzi at July 28, 2010 3:43 PM

Excellent, excellent, excellent.

WBC gives Christians a bad name. Thankfully most rational people realize that they are as far from true Christianity as the Klan is. It was so good to the other side represented. The CCAS sounds like my kind of folks.

the paragraph that AVB referred to was just beautiful.

As an artist myself I felt something upon reading this: "In a perfect world, there wouldn’t need to be Christian subgenres because people would judge art on its own merits.”

Posted by: VinKong at July 28, 2010 3:44 PM

I enjoyed this post very much.

About a year ago I was talking to a wonderful little Christian friend of mine (the good kind) and she told me that for many people, faith is like a brick wall. Not only that it keeps out new ideas, but also because of the way they're both built. Like a brick wall, faith is like a series of beliefs stacked and dependent upon each other for stability (for many). For example, if you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and you believe that God is infallable, then it is very easy to come to the belief that the Bible is infallable. And that's not such a leap from the Bible being literal (the less people understand the message, the more tightly they latch on to the literal translation). Once people begin to think that the Bible is the literal truth, there is no room for ideas like Quantum Mechanics, Evolution, or other varieties of spirituality. No matter how convincing the argument, no matter how much evidence, it will be rejected no matter what.

The tragic reason for this is that if you pull out that one brick -- the brick that says the Bible is literally the truth (evolution certainly calls contradicts the tale of Adam and Eve) -- it will cause all the other beliefs that are stacked up on it to fall. Maybe Jesus isn't really the son of God. Maybe God doesn't love me. Maybe the whole mess is make-believe. When you write, "I might be wrong," you're hitting the nail on the head. That is the foundation of fear for these kinds of religious people. When a person has built their entire structure of belief upon the idea that they cannot be wrong, they are ripe for feelings like rage, disgust and intolerance for any idea that might knock that brick loose.

This broad that I know; she understands that Evolution is a theory that best supports an overwhelming amount of facts. She understands that atoms and sub-atomic particles behave in extraordinarily mysterious ways, that the Universe is apparently unending, and that electrons behave differently when they're being observed. She acknowledges that she "might not be right." She is one of the most tolerant people I've met, and she is still a person of strong faith.

Posted by: superasente at July 28, 2010 3:50 PM

SLW, that was truly awe inspiring. As a Christian, I find myself wincing whenever Pajiba as a whole delves into "the church", especially since it usually comes after an appearance by Westboro or Proposition 8. I was nervous, but very intrigued about this article, and I have been truly blessed to read it.

Thank you for treating this topic with dignity.

Anyone who carries a sign that spouts that "God hates" someone just doesn't get it. I feel so sorry for those troglodytes at Westboro, because their "faith" is such a dark prison.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at July 28, 2010 3:57 PM

for example Greek mythology (which in my opinion is much more poetic and definitely more original)

You mean the same Greek mythology that features rape, incest, bestiality, patricide, matricide, fratricide, infanticide, genocide and human sacrifice?

Poetic?

Posted by: Fredo at July 28, 2010 3:57 PM

Thank you for the article, SLW. It was rich and compelling. However, I think you're all missing the real point, which is:

Nerds are everywhere. You can't even hide behind your bible or God Of Choice without running into a socially awkward, dice-rattling asthmatic. But those nerds are smart enough to put all that religionness into its proper context. I don't see how you can read this any other way.

Posted by: Kballs at July 28, 2010 4:01 PM


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Posted by: yuta at July 28, 2010 4:02 PM

But those nerds are smart enough to put all that religionness into its proper context.

Live = Let Live

30 GOTO 10?

Posted by: twig at July 28, 2010 4:07 PM

Thanks, SLW. I enjoyed this read.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at July 28, 2010 4:12 PM

The Bible as Literature was one of the best classes THIS Godless Heathen ever took in college. I took it in the hour preceding Philosophy of Religion, at Western Oregon State University, as an English major. Both were graduate level classes available to undergrads, and the level of discussion was extraordinary. 15-20 people in a class, and all there because we found it interesting.

Mockery and exposure is all one can really do about people like the WBC. Like many other types of molds and fungus, they really can only thrive in the dark and damp overlooked places, feeding on rot and corruption. When brought out into the light, they wither and die. As for their appalling behavior, to paraphrase the Buddha: They will not be punished FOR their hate, they will be punished BY it.

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at July 28, 2010 4:16 PM

Another really terrific piece! As a Christian in academia, I consistently disavow any knowledge or association with Fred Phelps's pernicious group. That is not godly love: it is hatred in its most vile form.

Personally, I howl with laughter every time I see a Chick tract. It's so ludicrously melodramatic...I mean, a guy who has an affair immediately has a heart attack and dies???? That screams "Scare tactic" if ever there was one.

Posted by: bonnie at July 28, 2010 4:17 PM

@ Fredo: You mean the same Greek mythology that features rape, incest, bestiality, patricide, matricide, fratricide, infanticide, genocide and human sacrifice?

I don't have time now to put up quotes, but there's an instance of every one of those in the bible. At least the Greeks were more inventive than the Israelites who only picked up bits from every single religion in the region...

Posted by: astounded at July 28, 2010 4:18 PM

I don't have time now to put up quotes, but there's an instance of every one of those in the bible. At least the Greeks were more inventive than the Israelites who only picked up bits from every single religion in the region...

I'm not disagreeing with you on their presence in the Bible. (Lest we forget: Absalom, David's son, having an orgy with his father's harem in view of all of Jerusalem for one).

What I'm saying is that if we had instead opted to continue believing in Zeus, Poseidon and their ilk, I don't think we'd be much better off.

And remember that the reason there is a pantheon of gods in Greece is that each city-state had its own gods that were coalesced into one large mythology as time went by. Same as the Israelites.

Posted by: Fredo at July 28, 2010 4:23 PM

When you strip away all of the trappings of science, the labs and experiments, the technology and toys, it is a very simple idea. It is the simple acceptance of the idea that I might be wrong. That’s the method, the simple kernel of humility that is at odds with the cliché of power mad scientists brewing their tech like witches at a cauldron.
Absolutely. As a man of science, myself, I'm totally with you up to here. If you're not prepared to be wrong, you're not actually engaged in science.

It’s the rejection of the ages old notion of faith: I cannot be wrong.
But there you lost me. We don't out-and-out reject faith. We just don't (or at least shouldn't) have a place for it. It doesn't fit within the parameters of science or the slightly older and broader field of natural philosophy.

I've got no beef with faith. There are things in life I accept on faith, in fact, like the love of my wife, the basic sentience of most animals, and many other things. But I don't try to apply the scientific method there, because my pre-conceived notions in those areas guarantee that I will fail to do so properly.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at July 28, 2010 4:24 PM

That "Jesus hung out with sinners" justification has always bothered me when it's used in reference to gay tolerance. I realize it's a compromise step and perhaps not intended as a precise analogy, but the idea that Jesus and those who espouse this statement might still be thinking "sinners" to themselves as they so magnanimously hang out with their gay friends screams hypocrisy and holier-than-thou to me. Maybe if they hang out with those "sinners" long enough they'll apply some rational thought and realize that the supposed "sinning" in this case is bollocks.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at July 28, 2010 4:24 PM

Agreed DarthCorleone. Glad someone brought that up.

This piece is ok and all, but it feels like another attempt to convey the 'look-at-what-an-open-minded-atheist-I-am' argument. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Much better than the evangelical atheist who's no better than his Christian counterpart.

I take issue with your simplistic description of the Bible as simply a documentation of ancient history and cultures. It does include that, but it also goes much deeper, particularly once you leave the world of the rule based Old Testament and delve into the messages of grace, tolerance, equality, and social justice of the New Testament. That's the part that people like Fred Phelps like to conveniently forget about as well.

Posted by: katy at July 28, 2010 4:38 PM

Also, I just Googled these Jack Chick tracts, and unholy guacamole it cannot be unseen.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at July 28, 2010 4:43 PM

Bravo, SLW, bra-fucking-vo.

I'll pass on plunging into the discourse, but in reference to this:

“In a perfect world, there wouldn’t need to be Christian subgenres because people would judge art on its own merits.”

I happily admit that I listen to a surprising amount of Christian metal/metalcore/hardcore music, and I'll say this... some of those bands are fucking amazing. I may not always agree with their message, but they're not (at least not the ones I listen to) hateful or judgmental. They merely have a very aggressive way of delivering their message about their beliefs. The point is, it's their music that I love, and as long as their message isn't a negative one, I couldn't care less.

Seriously, if that's your kind of music, check out bands like Maylene and the Sons of Disaster, Norma Jean and Oh, Sleeper. Some outstanding stuff.

Posted by: TK at July 28, 2010 4:45 PM

We've had people stand outside of my old alma mater spouting off at students. Calling girls that walk by whores and sluts, telling people they are going to hell, yelling at gay people that they will burn.

They are afraid of me.

True story. Several times I would walk towards them and they would ignore me to yell at someone behind me, or turn around completely.

I don't mind at all.

Posted by: DeistBrawler at July 28, 2010 4:47 PM

The founder of the Salvation Army said that it was necessary to blow Hell-fire in peoples' faces and give them a good scare before they'd accept preaching. And it was Lucretius that opined that "Fear was the first mother of all the gods." I refuse to live my life ruled by fear.

For people like the Phelpses, ridicule is the only weapon you can use on them. It disarms them, makes them irritable, and they go away.

Any mythology - Greek, Christian, Hindu, what-have-you - has a lot of human foibles attached to it, as we tend to anthropomorphize our deities (makes them more palatable, y'know).

I suggested in Sunday School to do a cunning pantomime on Lot and his daughters, and the pastor looked at me funny. I was not invited to suggest a pantomime after that, and later left the church.

Posted by: The Wanderer at July 28, 2010 4:50 PM

A black man, but alone; a white lady, but life is not that nice.

The title of my next novella. The tragic love affair of two middle class neighbors, whose attraction will break all social boundries (not because they're black and white, but because they're into abusive S&M) and leave you in tears (not because it's sad, but because I'm writting it on onion skins). Will Jessica and Tom's black/white romance be up to the challenge? Or will there be shades of gray? And does that last question actually mean anything or is it just silly, romantic ambiguity?

Find out! On page 4 of A Black Man, But Alone; A White Lady, But Life Is Not That Nice.

Posted by: superasente at July 28, 2010 4:55 PM

"It’s the rejection of the ages old notion of faith: I cannot be wrong."
But there you lost me. We don't out-and-out reject faith. We just don't (or at least shouldn't) have a place for it. It doesn't fit within the parameters of science or the slightly older and broader field of natural philosophy.

@ ZombieScientist, I believe what SLW meant here was that faith finds itself infallible, whereas science is aware it can be mistaken. The "I cannot be wrong" is the "ages old notion of faith" that science rejects. (Correct me if I'm misreading it, Steven.)

Posted by: Anna von Beaverdouche at July 28, 2010 5:25 PM

None of you people get it! Do you not see the sign in the photo?

All Glory To The Hypnotoad!

He is our One True Master

Posted by: lil_a at July 28, 2010 6:32 PM

Loved this. I'm a Christian but I also often call myself an agnostic Christian--I'm the liberal open-minded kind of Christian. I just got into a heated debate earlier today with a guy on Facebook about the Islamic center going up near Ground Zero. It devolved into him acting like Islam is a violent religion but Christianity is not. He was even defending the Crusades by saying the Muslims started it. Good grief he had me pissed off and I'm not even Muslim myself. I think I digress but I guess I'm just saying it's another example of that sort of intolerance and bigotry many Christians are guilty of having. I hate that crap.

As for the statement “Christ didn’t picket. He hung out with the sinners", I like that. It doesn't have to mean the person saying it thinks other people are bigger sinners than him/herself. In traditional Christian theology we are ALL sinners so it can be said in kindness and humility, if that makes sense.

TK, thanks for that comment about Christian music. Some of it sucks monkeyballs (like secular music) but there is some good stuff. I was into alternative rock (do they still call it that these days) in college and I listened to both secular and Christian versions, but with what I thought was discerning taste. I was a good Baptist girl at the time but I had a higher tolerance for non-Christian music that used *gasp* swear words but was really good than for crappy Christian music.

Posted by: pickled tink at July 28, 2010 6:39 PM

lil_a: I caught that too and burst out laughing.

ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD

Posted by: Fredo at July 28, 2010 7:44 PM

Goddamnit, SLW, I fucking love you even more than I did before I read this. Which was already a lot. You are the dog's balls. I can't tell you how glad I am that you went to SDCC and wrote about it. You've made me hopeful about the human race. (I'm sure it'll pass soon, but still.)

Posted by: Jerce at July 28, 2010 7:51 PM

Zombiescientist I read that bit the same as Anna, that Steven saying that science is the rejection of 'I cannot be wrong'. Then again, I have a bit of a 'thing' for the writing of Mr Wilson, so I'm inclined to think the best of him.

But you're absolutely right that there are some things you just can't apply the scientific method to. The heart WILL get in the way of the head sometimes.

Posted by: ScienceGeek at July 28, 2010 7:57 PM

The god people believe in often says a lot about what's going on inside them.

So Fred Phelps with his GOD HATES philosophy tells me immediately we're dealing with an incredibly self-loathing human being. His god is one of hatred, fear, criticism, disapproval, condemnation, always always always condemnation. A god you can never escape from, never hide from, never NOT be punished by. Because he feels all of this about himself.

Not to get too psycho-whatever, but that's pretty much the truth of it.

The people I've known who believe in a loving god? Well, I don't think it's a huge coincidence they are loving, kind people.

I think it's very important to remember that, while the Phelps group is a very visible reminder of the bastardization of Jesus' teachings in the name of hatred, there are a LOT of other groups that parade around under the Christian name that are anything but in their deeds. Honestly, I think the Phelps family is on the wane. Their goals already seemed pretty scattered (what exactly is the point of protesting a FUNERAL? What's going to happen?), but now Comic-Con? Seriously? They were already crazy, but now they're just sort of falling apart. I also remember when the family was a lot bigger. They protested a gay pride parade in Dallas and my church at the time had a float in it (UU church) and I remember seeing many of them lining Oak Lawn Avenue as we went by. I wanted very badly to flip them all off, but....well, I was on a church float. So I stared. They looked so cut off from their surroundings. Nothing behind their eyes. Just standing, staring, holding that big gay rainbow "GOD HATES FAGS" sign and looking dead for all the world. Very creepy.

Anyway, I think laughing at them is the very best response, next to ignoring them.

Posted by: Snuggiepants at July 28, 2010 8:42 PM

Also, I just Googled these Jack Chick tracts, and unholy guacamole it cannot be unseen.

Ah.
Thank you for staying my hand, Patty. I was about to do a search, myself, but judging by your reaction, I think I'll remain blissfully ignorant.

Posted by: Rykker at July 28, 2010 8:45 PM

“GOD HATES…” US ALL. Westboro Baptist Church endorses Slayer

Another fine piece Mr Wilson.

Posted by: Squirrelgripper at July 28, 2010 9:45 PM

Great post, as usual. The best thing about it, to me, is the highlighting of that phrase: "I might be wrong." It's this, as you say, kernel of humility that I think is so important no matter which way you lean on the subject of religion (and countless other subjects with vehement crusaders both for and against).

This was just a very pleasant read, and an interesting window into the way you think, which all the best writing is. Great report on a ridiculous situation.

Posted by: dsbs at July 28, 2010 9:49 PM

Man I'm loving these peices on the stuff that doesn't get reported on at comic con like this and the twilight fanfic one. They're really interesting looks at things that I never even really considerd as much more then a joke.

Thanks for opening my eyes.

Posted by: Ben at July 28, 2010 11:08 PM

Pickled Tink >> Respectfully, the statement is still singling out the state of being gay as being "sinful," so whether or not all Christians consider themselves sinners from a philosophical standpoint is completely incidental to me. The whole concept of and obsession with original sin, confession, self-flagellation, etc., in order to make amends with a divine being under the threat of displeasing him is quite distasteful to me. Yes, we all make mistakes. The right thing to do is to own up to them for the sake of our fellow humans and this world we live in.

Additionally, taking the statement at face value, the very fact that one says they are hanging out "with" the sinners implies that there is a choice in the matter, i.e., they could be hanging out with those that are not actively sinning.

Apologies - as a closing statement it just left a bad taste in my mouth and let me know there's still a big gap to bridge here.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at July 28, 2010 11:37 PM

Darth> You know, I'd never thought of it that way. It's one of those statements that are clearly made by a decent and well-meaning person, but have a kind of hidden subconscious bite.

It's been a long time since Sunday School for me, so does anybody know if Jesus ever actually used the term 'sinner'? I mean, to personally describe a person, not just in a general sense? I always pictured him as the kind of guy who'd object to that word, just a little bit. I read his 'God loves and forgives you' spiel as being more of a 'Drop the guilt and focus on being a decent person' vibe than a 'you suck' one.

Posted by: ScienceGeek at July 29, 2010 12:05 AM

Good shit SLW. Once again a reminder of why I love this site.

Posted by: Mick J at July 29, 2010 12:06 AM

The statement about Jesus hanging with sinners was made by the Pharisees at his trial. It was basically one of their charges against him: "He hangs out with whores, tax collectors and sinners!" In the early years of what would later be termed the Jesus movement that accusation was turned on its head to emphasize the need for Christians to live an active life of faith and service rather than hiding inside the walls of a building.

Today the phrase is often used in an ironic way. None of us can hang with anyone who isn't a sinner. We have to live with ourselves, don't we?

In terms of sucky Christian art, well, 90% of everything is crap. The problem is that Christian art, be it music, writing, etc., is put in its own market. Christian metal is not judged against all metal, but first must be judged whether or not it is Christian (I dunno). That means the even if the same percentage of art is good to outstanding, the raw numbers will be very, very small.

Posted by: apocalipstick at July 29, 2010 12:38 AM

I always pictured him as the kind of guy who'd object to that word, just a little bit. I read his 'God loves and forgives you' spiel as being more of a 'Drop the guilt and focus on being a decent person' vibe than a 'you suck' one.

An old priest I love, who is also my great-uncle, once told me that the Bible is not only the history of a people, but the record of that people's relationship with God. Taken as a whole, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, one can read in the Bible the progression from belief in God as the Almighty Chastiser, the One who requires you to live by certain prescribed rules and avoid proscribed behaviors (and punishes you when you fail to do so), to belief in God as loving and benevolent Parent who exhorts you to live and love in community with your brothers and sisters, and enlarges your family so that everyone is your sibling. My great-uncle thought that folks like Fred Phelps and his ilk were people whose concept of God had simply never progressed beyond the Old Testament, and that they were to be pitied for their lack of growth.

I'm not sure what I believe these days, and God, to me, is not a being or concept I spend much time contemplating. But I can get behind the notion of accepting everyone as a family member, even if I don't often put that in practice. I guess that makes Fred Phelps my developmentally disabled, mentally deranged cousin. Hmmmm ...

Posted by: PDamian at July 29, 2010 3:11 AM

DarthCorleone, fair enough, see where you are coming from. I was just trying to be all happypants and make it sound more palatable. I personally don't call gays (or anyone else, really) sinners and I go to an Episcopal Church where they are welcome to join or become bishops, etc.

Posted by: pickled tink at July 29, 2010 7:57 AM

They are afraid of me.

Maybe they can see your horns, Deist...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at July 29, 2010 9:58 AM

Darth, that statement is in reference to Jesus (who we are taught never sinned) and made by Pharisees (who were hypocritical and pompous and believed themselves 'above others').

I recognize that I am a sinner; daily, and often on this website [smirk]. And I've been taught that all sins are equal in God's sight. So if I tell a small lie, and my neighbor kills a guy, we are evenly judged. This instills a lot of humility in those who actually listen to it.

That humility comes from the same place as the statement "I might be wrong." And it is a difficult place for people to live; we don't like to relinguish control or strength.

It sounds like your issue with the statement, at its most base, is the belief that homosexuality is a sin. Frankly, that is an entirely different conversation, and one that would get pretty messy. Anyone who believes that pre-marital sex is a sin has an issue with ALL sex outside of marriage, and since many of those people don't support gay marriage, there you go. It is a huge tangled web of shit that will never be untangled to everyone's satisfaction.

The point of all of it is love. We are called to love and not to judge. We tend to fail miserably. Thank God for grace.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at July 29, 2010 10:09 AM

@ ZombieScientist, I believe what SLW meant here was that faith finds itself infallible, whereas science is aware it can be mistaken. The "I cannot be wrong" is the "ages old notion of faith" that science rejects. (Correct me if I'm misreading it, Steven.)

Posted by: Anna von Beaverdouche at July 28, 2010 5:25 PM

Ah, but that's not quite right either. Or, at least, it leads us to throw assorted babies out with the bathwater.

It's possible that I'm splitting hairs here. SLW's heart is clearly in the right place, but I'm not a fan of absolutes.

Faith, in and of itself, can't be self-righteous, blind, or stupid. It's fundamental to human nature, and it is not necessarily a bad thing. We evolved to detect patterns and if we didn't treat them with some degree of certainty, we'd get eaten by a tiger a lot more often. (Yes, I'm skimming over the top of a lot of stuff here).

Faith isn't even incompatible with science. Newton, for example, was a very faithful person. He studied science because he felt that learning about Creation would help him understand God. But he also put boundaries on his faith. He believed in God. He understood that didn't mean he also had to believe in a flat, 6000 year-old Earth, among other things.

He also understood something else. If the scientific method cannot be applied to something, scientists ought to shut their yaps about it. As I know I've mentioned here before, we can't test whether God exists, therefore science cannot be atheistic. It can only be agnostic. False negative results aren't as bad as false positives, but they are still something the scientific method is designed to avoid.

Science, by default, is agnostic about everything until it has evidence. Human beings are actually incapable of doing that with everything. Everyone has things they "cannot be wrong" about. Ironically, from the perspective of this piece, science tells us so. :) We all have bedrock beliefs that we refuse to alter even in the face of evidence. In fact, when evidence is presented that contradicts one of these beliefs, we react by holding that belief more strongly. Scientists are not immune to this. We don't even do much better than the general population at accepting new evidence.

Faith that "science says X" even in the face of evidence to the contrary is just as common in my experience as faith that "God says Y."

Within the boundaries of scientific inquiry, it is essential that we can say "I don't know" and "I could be wrong." But, the more I study human beings, history, the brain, and so on, the more I realize there are places outside those boundaries where you need some certainty.

Some sort of "scientific" absolutism would be no gentler a tyranny than a religious absolutism. But in my experience in life and of reading history, people usually throw off the latter and promptly try to replace it with the former. Not a good move, IMO.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at July 29, 2010 10:49 AM

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Posted by: kaly at July 29, 2010 11:33 AM

I am way too late in saying thanks for a fair-minded interview with the religious folks at Comic-con and actually engaging their point of view instead of just lumping them in with the Neanderphelps bunch. Hope you check the comments and find this.

Posted by: Brett at August 4, 2010 7:12 PM