Pajiba

Awesome. Pajiba strikes again - I need a Netflix list for books now.

As someone who feels like a female-Hornby, this sounds fantastic.

Plus, I love me some Patton Oswalt.

I would never have given this book a second glance, I had assumed from the title that it was a self-help book. The list of contributors has me salivating, I'm grabbing a copy as soon as possible...despite being a member of the heart-stomping fairer sex.

In my ever lasting attempt to understand men and their stupidity I will be running out to buy this after work.

I've been looking for something to read before bed and this sounds perfect. Thank you for the review Daniel.

Ha ha ha! Wormer, that made me laugh out loud, it just sounded so bitter. :)

This book sounds great! Now I am going to have to buy it even though I am broke. Oh well, I will just eat Ramon noodles for lunch again next week.

Twig, don't hurt me like that!

How ironic that men come out of being dumped having learned so much from us and yet all I ever learned from the men who dumped me (and yes, I was like the rat who keeps going back to the shock button) was:
Men who play guitars have no concept of the meaning of fidelity.

I actually read this book a couple of weeks ago after my brother finished with it. Well worth the dollaz. Though I wasn't a fan of that guy calling his infant daughter a little bitch...

What I've learned from women who've dumped me:

- I ain't got much money
- I don't have the looks
- My style is seriously lacking
- I sure as s**t can't cook
- I should lose more weight
- I should not be so nice
- Don't let her go into Motel 8
- With some other guy
- That there are many ways
- To break a heart in one day
- And that no matter how easier it might be
- I can't run away and pretend to be gay

Guys, we be screwed.

Brilliant. Fascinating. I want this book, right now, in my hands. This sounds like one of those books I'll devour in an afternoon. I will have it by day's end.

I wonder what we would learn about our fellow Pajibicians if we were to list the biggest lesson we each learned from our worst relationship...

[not volunteering to go first]

What I hope my ex-boyfriends learned after I've dumped them:

- telling me you hooked up with the girl whose wedding we are attending and calling her 'gorgeous' four times throughout the evening is beyond uncool

- ruthlessly pursuing me for 3 months and then telling me you're "not ready for a relationship" is lame. If you just want a sex buddy, be straightforward about it. I might cave if you know how to work it.

- ditching me at a concert because I was trying to get someone's autograph for your stepmom and ended up talking to the band's hot trumpet players instead is reaaaaaaally not cool. Especially since 1) I got the fucking autograph, and 2) the dress I had on was HOT that night, and seriously, I didn't need the entire fucking horn section to tell me that they were going to beat that guy's ass.

Ugh. All that aside--this book sounds awesome.

BFFredo, your exes are MEAN.

Oh, and to be fair, the things I've learned from the guys who have dumped me:

-they need attention and praise. Constantly.

-girls who don't 'put out' after a certain amount of time aren't worth it.

-just because you met him when you were wearing a shirt that shows off your rack does not mean you should wear that when you're going out without him. (Not that I'd follow this, but I dated someone who was all "You're wearing THAT out with your girls?" Mmhmmm.)

...uh, yeah, that's about it. (Slim pickins around there here parts, it seems...)

I've been with the same woman for 12 years, so I've forgotten most of my bad experiences... except...

When you're in high school, don't date girls who are from completely different social circles. Because one night you'll make out with her, and then she'll be embarrassed and tell all her friends you took advantage of her, thus making you insecure for years.

em...harsh...must be slim pickins...that, ummm...sucks....I feel for ya. Need a hug?

"When you're in high school, don't date girls who are from completely different social circles. Because one night you'll make out with her, and then she'll be embarrassed and tell all her friends you took advantage of her, thus making you insecure for years."

TK--same thing happened to my last boyfriend. Now that's just fucking cruel.

Seconded, Shadows.
I definitely feel the Eloquents would have some good ones.

-girls who don't 'put out' after a certain amount of time aren't worth it.

GAH. Can I give a ginormous "fuck you" to the guy I briefly dated over the summer for pulling this one? Fuck. You. Up. The. Ass.

I remember that story when you first told us, TK...I still think that's pretty damn fucking inhuman of her. That has to take the cake as the worst thing that could happen to you in a dating situation. Seconded only by the surprise ending.

(What's the surprise ending, you ask? Let's just say some guys can be really, really pretty...and leave it at that.)

what I've been told: dating a bat-shit crazy art type is interesting until they are hanging out with you in their jammies and wanting to talk.

damn thrill seeking wusses. the right kind of talk can be bat shit crazy too!

I'm in the same boat as TK. Having been with Mr. Pink for almost 14 years, I don't have too much experience from which to delve.

Except the one big lesson I've learned from a couple of ex's:

Gay men love me.

P.S. Love the Sweater Vest Swinger Zombie, PajibaGuys.

Lessons learned from girls who've dumped me:

- Speak your mind...don't keep the negative things you want to say to yourself, or she'll call you a pussy and dump your ass.

- Stand up for what you want every now and then...don't go along with everything she says, or she'll call you a pussy and dump your ass.

- Don't spend every moment you can with her...make sure you both get plenty of "me" time, and time to miss each other, or she'll call you a clingy pussy and dump your ass.

- Do not, under any circumstance, even hint that her adopted hairy child is not on the tip-topmost of your mind like it is on hers, or she'll call you an insensitive pussy and dump your ass.

- Learn to read her emotional outbreaks correctly, to see when she genuinely needs your support, or when she just needs to blow off steam, or she'll call you an emotionally insensitive pussy and dump your ass.

So to recap...I'm an emotionally insensitive clingy pussy who only goes out with neurotic, emotionally insecure girls. Yeah, I'm doing a fine job...

Having been on both sides of the fence, I'll say this. When dating women, never date redheads. Trouble and drama follow them around like paparazzi after Lindsay Lohan. Never date a blonde who's already got a boyfriend. As for men who've been dumped by me: never tell a woman what to do. You will be kicked to the curb with a quickness.

"- Do not, under any circumstance, even hint that her adopted hairy child is not on the tip-topmost of your mind like it is on hers, or she'll call you an insensitive pussy and dump your ass."

Shadows--Adopted hairy child? Does this mean a pet or was it actually a real adopted hairy child? I just busted a gut reading that phrase!

...and yes, I'll take that hug. :) Think you could use one too!

Re: Girls who don't put out after a certain amount of time.

Yeah, and it's THE GUY who decides what that "certain time" is. So you're left clueless.
Biding your time because the anticipation is yummy and exciting? Get dumped because you're "frigid". Tear off his pants on the first date because you're horny? Get dumped afterwards because you're a slut.

Her dog, actually...the "only dependable man in my life, the only one who's never left me". Admittedly...my fault...that sentence should have rung the alarm bells louder than the subsequent 3 months. Although now that you say that...I'm seeing this little Son of Wolfman image running around....

And Kris...she was a redhead. I wholeheartedly agree.

I don't have good dumping wisdom per se, as I've only had a few full-on "girlfriends", along with undefined, sometimes very long-running and sometimes fraught relationships with others. What I learned is that without rapport any sexual chemistry is meaningless. Cruelly, there can be little of the former and a whole lot of the latter. I can't fool around with someone I don't also really want to talk to or I'm going to feel guilty and probably nauseous. Some people do not mind that nothing's going to happen so I'm just overthinking and being paranoid when nothing serious is actually occurring. But, yeah, I've been casual enough to know that I can't handle it. We've got to have the makings of great friends or I'm going to worry that I've gone too far and excuse myself. I've confused and annoyed some people but I know myself well enough now that I'd rather just see if something right shows up eventually rather than pursuing wrong just because it's so intoxicating when it first starts.

And dammit, all six copies were already checked out. Gotta wait.

I'm with you on the high school thing, TK. I had a fling senior year with a guy who I adored and when he finally asked if I wanted to go out "officially" he added, "But don't tell anyone, ok? I'm on the baseball team, and you're in the drama club."

Yeah.. he might have been smokin, but I still told him to go fuck himself.

OK, Shadows, now I'm just cracking up. "The only dependable man in my life, the only one who's never left me"? (I'm a big dog person, but...seriously?) This sounds like a line from a freaky Lifetime drama! Ten bucks says that poor dog is suicidal! Sounds like you got outta that one just in time...

numchuck--"Biding your time because the anticipation is yummy and exciting? Get dumped because you're "frigid". Tear off his pants on the first date because you're horny? Get dumped afterwards because you're a slut."-- AMEN to this.

What I've Learned From the Women Who Rejected Me:

- Don't keep thinking you can wait it out -- you can't without losing your patience and your sanity

- Don't keep trying to be everything you think she'll need with the hope that she comes to her senses -- she won't and you'll start to hate yourself for losing yourself, and her for all that you did to yourself

- Be cognizant of when the look and touch change and don't be afraid to inquire as to why it did...you may not get the answer you want but you'll get on with your life

- Recognize bullshit for what it is

- Accept what you have and look elsewhere for what you want...it's out there, you just need to be less complacent

Biding your time because the anticipation is yummy and exciting? Get dumped because you're "frigid". Tear off his pants on the first date because you're horny? Get dumped afterwards because you're a slut.

Ha!

"But don't tell anyone, ok? I'm on the baseball team, and you're in the drama club."

:gasp!: I was in the drama club, and we were AWEOSME. I'm glad you told him to fuck off.

Shadows, that's just...terrifying. I love my dog, but he does not offer emotional support. He lays on my lap and makes me feel happy yes, but advice is not Rizzo's forte, therefore he's not dependable. Especially since he feels the need to pee on me when he hasn't seen me in a while.

When dating women, never date redheads. Trouble and drama follow them around like paparazzi after Lindsay Lohan.

Goddammit. This is why I keep trying to dye my hair brown!

I don't even like drama. It gives me hives.

"When dating women, never date redheads."

hey!

Dan Savage is supposed to have a bit in the book too. Which should be an interesting read...All things considered. I am guessing it involves the brief time when he was still in the closet.

I've had exactly two long term boyfriends. Here is what I've learned from them, respectively:

- Don't date boys who only see you as a collection of qualities which make up the ideal girl friend, they will hate you when you show any glimpses of personality at all.

- Heavy duty weed habits make for shitty boyfriends. Boy is still in love with me but just can NOT man up to do the work required to keep a relationship going for more than 10 months.

I don't know what my former boyfriends may have learned from me other than "Irish German girls with an IQ that outstrips their weight by 20% are stubborn, mouthy bitches." I do have good qualities. Sometimes.

Not only will I acquire this book, but I plan to make sure I read it in a public place to attract pity. :- )

The heart is a muscle, the more times you tear it, the stronger it grows. At this rate, I can tow a truck with the motherfucker.

I've only ever learned two wise pieces of advice on relationships:
1) Never weigh your new relationship in terms of the old relationship. The both of you are two different people now.
2) Never take wise advice from other people on relationships. They aren't you.

And I'll end on this happy note. My current girlfriend, the once and future Lady Clevername, said this to me when I was complaining about my failures in love: "Of course those other girls left you. They had to make room for me."

Julie, it's actually filed IN the self help section. Horribly misplaced, it should be in humor. I read it, loved it, recommend it.

Genny (also Rusty):

"Irish German girls with an IQ that outstrips their weight by 20% are stubborn, mouthy bitches."

Fuck, those are good qualities. All of 'em. Don't let anyone tell you different.

What I've learned from dating..hmm I'm pretty good at not carrying baggage but I'd say:

-if he's a cheater don't take him back b/c it's not worth the compromises you make to yourself plus the trust is usually gone for good.

-don't live in SE Asia and expect a healthy relationship to start and/or last

-I like beer and booze and sports, seriously, that doesn't mean I'm hitting on your friends.

-I'm not going to change (prudify) my wardrobe for you. On the weekends I like my jeans and t-shirts and that's that.

*steps onto soapbox*

Thing I learned and hope my boyfriends learned from our time(s) together-

Love is only a part of the equation. That's a tough one, but it's a biggie.

Passion does usually give way to friendship (with sex) after a while, so how good a friend are you?

*steps off of soap box, dusts it off, turns and leaves.

P.S. What I learned from the worst relationship? If it doesn't feel good to be with someone, flippin' leave already! You're just prolonging the inevitable, along with your misery.

I'm actually reading this right now. I stumbled upon it randomly in the library two days ago, and I agree with everything said here. Kudos once again, Pajiba.

Girls,

Putting out is WHY men date you in the first place. That doesn't mean you have to give up the goods on the first date, but don't act shocked when they do the cost/benefit analysis and determine if they aren't getting any they might as well have fun and hang out with their buddies.

Julie Bitter?? Me? Well....I'm glad I at least made you laugh.

One of the most important things I've learnt from bad relationships is exploring someone else's body is completely different from exploring someone else's mind. You have to keep the two experiences separate for a while, unfortunately I can't follow my own goddamn advice.

p.s. T.K. I'm really sorry you had to deal with that, there's no excuse for that kind of immature and disgraceful behaviour (from a woman or otherwise). I'm glad you've found your one!

Harsh Reality,

Putting out is also a main reason WHY women date you (well...not YOU. Men) in the first place. But if someone expects me to take a shower with them after the first date then they are not deserving of my vagina.

Harsh Reality, any troglodyte who's so developmentally disabled that he won't consider me a friend or have fun hanging out with me will never so much as see the inside of my house, let alone my pants. Which is sad for him, because mouthy bitches are uninhibited.

That's my own personal cost/benefit analysis.

Which is sad for him, because mouthy bitches are uninhibited.

Yes we are Sarina, and the fools who can't wait until, oh I don't know, a third date are missing out on some good times.

One more thing I learned (retorspectively) from the men who dumped me:

Google them ten years later with a bottle of wine on hand and have a great evening laughing at what they look like now and how their lives have imploded.
You'll be amazed at how "I don't want emotional attachments while the band is making its name" turns into "middle level manager at a waste disposal firm".
Or:
"I'm never taking any of Dad's money or using his connections" becomes "Managing solicitor in the firm of Asshole, Asshole, Asshole and Son"

I'm not sure what "retorspectively" means, but I pleads the 'eadaches.

It's like "retrospectively", but sassier.

Awww, thanks TK. Maybe it will only take men my age another 5-10 years to realize that. In the meantime, I'll have given up and become a trophy wife, as per my threats to my mother when I learned how much she made as a biomedical research assistant.

Wow, Harsh Reality. I have nothing against using people for sex, I've done it with no shame, but that's not why people get into RELATIONSHIPS. Getting into a relationship for sex is like buying a car to get a radio. Just buy the damn radio, or hell, there's plenty of places that give the radio away for free if you're upfront about what you want!

I heard this somewhere a few years ago:

"If you can remain friends with someone after a breakup, you were either never truly in love or you still are."

I'm still rather skeptical of the concept, but so far it's held true for me...

Genny,

There aren't that many places to get the "radio" for free, especially if you look like me. So I have to date first and deal with hearing them complain about whatever drama is in their life this week, pretend I like to do what they want to do, and spend $$$ to take them out. In return, is it too much to ask to have some of MY needs met in a reasonable time frame? And yes, I'm sure they all think they have amazing personalities and it's a blessing to just be around them, but in reality I've come across very few females who enjoy the same things I do. So if it's just a matter of hanging out, and no bumping uglies, well that's not all that appealing. At least when I hang out with the guys we share the bill. And yes, I am leaving myself open for all sorts of attacks here, but I just think an injection of reality is called for. Some women think their hoo-hoo is made out of gold or something.

I retract what I said. I like coming here for the movie reviews, but when I read some of the comments here I just went off for some reason, uncalled for. Sorry. I'll go back to lurking.

Harsh Reality,

I'm not sure what kind of women you're dating but stop. Seriously, just stop. Your bitterness has got the best of you and you're coming off as a complete douchbag.
And it's called a Vagina. Say it with me now, VAGINA. Not hoo-hoo.

p.s. my Vagina is made of gold thank you very much

At least when I hang out with the guys we share the bill.

Wow. Just...wow.

Actually Harsh Reality makes a very good point. I was amazed when I first came to the US to find that a standard first date, even for teenagers, is usually dinner or some other costly venture such as going to the movies. Why should there be an implicit spend involved? When I was dating (granted, there weren't many movie theatres back in the neolithic era), a date was hanging out in a happening street in town or sneaking into a concert through the back fence. There was never any expectation that money needed to be spent or indeed that when it was spent, it should be the guy who did it. Maybe if that implicit spend wasn't there, the expectation of sex in return wouldn't be there either on the first date.

I know, I know, I'll just wander back to Shady Pines now. It's time for the afternoon bingo game.

I agree with Paddy, though I'm in similar circumstances - I haven't been on a date since 1994. But why do dates have to cost money? Can't people come up with something more creative to do? Harsh Reality's point, while pretty ineloquent and somewhat chauvinist, has some validity to it... at least on the money-spending end. But then again, perhaps if HR spent a little more time thinking up more interesting and creative dates, he'd have more success. And if you're dating women who only want to do things that involve you spending money, well, that's your fucking problem right there.

And if you're dating women who only want to do things that involve you spending money, well, that's your fucking problem right there.

Absolutely. I disagreed with his sentiment because it seemed like a blanket statement that all women expect that from their date. Which...not me, I'd rather hang out and watch movies to be honest. My last official date consisted of drinking smoothies in a park in Philly and talking for 3 hours before his soccer game.

Harsh Reality's got a point. He might be saying it four ways from fucking wrong but he's got a point. It's not a matter of why buy the cow if the milk's for free, it's why buy the cow if there's not going to be any milk? Steaks?

The problem is, good sir, there's always a double standard for sexuality. A girl who's sexually open is a whore, a guy who's sexually open is Fonzie. Or, my favorite way of hearing it, "A slut is someone who'll fuck everyone. A bitch is someone who'll fuck everyone but me."

I can tell it's a little bit of the ol' sour grapes, with the "guy who looks like me". I've been there. While trolling match.com in my more lonely and desperate days, I found there seemed to be a preponderance of bitter, overweight nursing students. I would constantly hear, "The most important thing to me is a sense of humor. I just want a guy who can make me laugh. Oh, and he has to be five eight." Now if life were fair and humor was all it took, I'd be motherfucking Spanish fly. But, alas, the height requirement prevented many ladies from getting the pleasure it is to know and be loved by me.

But hell, it seems like dating has been filled with so much protocol anymore. Should I call? Who should pay? Should I kiss her? Should I touch him? People forget to just have a goddamn good time.

HR- if you only date women who expect you to shell out the big bucks for a date, then I'd say you have a...um, "certain type". And because of that type, you may be getting what you've got coming to you.

Also, my fellas. Ladies don't like hearing that you expect to get inside their holiest of holies because you spent cash. See, it's degrading and disrespectful. I mean, maybe if the girl is a real live hooker you'll get some. Otherwise, if that's your mentality and you've been gettin' nothing but doors slammed in your face? Fucking good.

But hell, it seems like dating has been filled with so much protocol anymore. Should I call? Who should pay? Should I kiss her? Should I touch him? People forget to just have a goddamn good time.

Oh god, I hate that aspect of dating so much. So very very much. I have absolutely no patience for games, and sometimes that backfires, but...if I like you I'm going to let you know. If I don't, same thing. Life is too damned short to regress back to high school chicanery*.

*Yes, I said chicanery. I like that word.

I concur with both PaddyDog and TK. Financial expectations on dates are ridiculous, for two different reasons.

#1: No self-respecting person, either male or female, expects their date to pay for everything on principle. Either they have vastly overrated the innate worth of their sparkling personality, or they're a whore.

#2: A lot of "date" activities that cost money, like fancy-pants dinners or going to the movies, are a stupid waste of time because you don't even really get to know the person.

If you're someone who requires an outing or some sort of ritual activity on a date, why not do something nerdy like bowling? It's cheap, it's goofy, and you can relax, have fun and get to know each other. Even if it doesn't work out romantically, at least it didn't cost you $50 and you might even end up friends.

On the other hand, if one of you is expecting some financial benefit and the other is expecting some kind of compensation, you will end up with neither a romantic partner or a friend. You will end up with rashes in bad places and an exponentially dwindling dignity.

Harsh Reality's got a point. He might be saying it four ways from fucking wrong but he's got a point. It's not a matter of why buy the cow if the milk's for free, it's why buy the cow if there's not going to be any milk? Steaks?

Hilarious!

I think we're inching our way towards what dating is.

Some guys think women are for sex, guys are for sports and drinking. You can weed them out the next time 'Flo' comes around and see how fast they split for 'guy time'.

Conversely, some women think men are neaderthals that need 'training' and have open wallets, who are to be rewarded with sex. Usually bad, grudging sex.

Eventually we grow up and/or stumble onto a friend who we can have sex, booze, sports, conversation and a little bit of culture with, without keeping tally in our heads...I hope.

Exponentially dwindling dignity. Now I finally have a name for my penis! Thanks, Sarina!

#1: No self-respecting person, either male or female, expects their date to pay for everything on principle. Either they have vastly overrated the innate worth of their sparkling personality, or they're a whore.

Or their vast knowledge of what constitutes a date stems from constant re-viewings of How to Marry a Millionaire.

My one college roommate spent the week leading up to Valentines Day bragging about the fancy schmancy dinner her boyfriend was planning, and how he was going to buy her the Tommy Hilfiger bedroom set she asked for as a gift (I...don't know, she was an asshole). She got all dolled up while my girlfriends and I rolled our eyes and prepared to order pizza, watch Slumber Party Massacre IV (awesome), and drink cheap wine.

She came back home later that night pissed off beyond belief...her boyfriend had taken her to Chick-Fil-A and to see Hannibal. Which...hysterical. But what made it pathetic was the fact that she couldn't just enjoy a night out with him and instead bitched about the fact that she had a date in the first place.

Eventually we grow up and/or stumble onto a friend who we can have sex, booze, sports, conversation and a little bit of culture with, without keeping tally in our heads...

Amanda, there's my dream guy. :)

Thanks, Sarina!

You are most welcome, sir. Gosh, I am being so friendly and helpful this week.

I never spent money on any of my first dates. Let's see...one I brought home with me. We ate a dinner I made and watched a movie she had rented but didn't want to watch on her own. Another we met at the local bookstore (BAM, for those knowledgeable), and spent the entire time wandering around the aisles, talking about ourselves (and pointing out certain books when there was a lull in the conversation). There was one money-spending date...but I don't think buying weed for the girl and us smoking up in the back seat of her car really counts as me spending money on a date...I got to take the baggie home. There was never any expectation, never any trade of goods for services, it was two people hanging out and getting to know each other and figuring out if they liked what they saw.

Harsh Reality, take to heart one saying...and it'll help you with everything - "Above all, be true to yourself, and if you cannot put your heart in it, take yourself out of it." You have to be comfortable with yourself before you can be comfortable with other people.

And look for people who at least somewhat share your tastes. TK's right...if you look for the flashy, glammed out girl and p

[scares off hellcat who with uncanny accuracy hit the Post Comment button when she grabbed the mouse]

Where was I? Ah yes..if you look for the flashy, glammed out girl and pay for meal and drinks and movie or what-have-you...then, yeah, you're gonna feel cheated when you don't get your "equivalent exchange".

Sarina...stop being so helpful. You're just teasing people now...they'll be defenseless when you pounce...

Hey Julie...I got a smoothie-maker and love booze and sex!

Shadows, you'd better! And hee, I first read your comment as if you had love booze...I was going to ask you exactly how much Rohypnol in a margarita would be needed to make such a cocktail. :)

Stupid open tags...italicize just the "had" for emphasis :p

Yeah, Harsh Reality just further strengthened my resolve to always pay my own way on dates. Always. I don't ever want to be in a situation where someone feels I "owe them" anything. Also, if I want to sleep with a guy, I'll sleep with him whether he buys me a fancy french dinner or buys taco bell, serves it to me on a paper plate and cues up a movie he borrowed from a friend on his itty bitty television while we sit on a sofa that is older than either of us. It's about the person, not the money they spend. At least for me.

But I'm bad with relationships anyway. I'm a fiercely independent person, so my normal state is to be happy by myself. It takes a very special person for me to want to be in a relationship with them, and I'm glad for that. It means I've had less drama in my dating life.

Sarina...stop being so helpful. You're just teasing people now...they'll be defenseless when you pounce...

All part of my evil scheme, my pretty.

Yep, back in college people were just...around. You were in an undulating pool of them and there was very little need for any kind of structure or ritual or protocol. You just merged some of your activities. And I kissed a lot more people back then, and that's what I really miss. This grownup dating schtick of first locating people then test driving them is shit, and too much pressure.

All part of my evil scheme, my pretty.

Psh. Like we wouldn't see it coming, you redhead.

[knock at door]

Who the...Sarina? What the fu--

[soft, puddingy thud]

No...not in my exponentially dwindling dignity...what a world...what a world....

"Hey bartender...two drinks."
"Of course sir...your usual, Roofie Colada?"
"Nuh, uh uh..." [makes shutup motions with hands]

Julie:

Your roomate? Was not just an asshole. She was an out-and-out HOE.

I've known lots of "gals" like that. All they talk about is what their guy is buying them, how they're working on getting a cruise or a trip to Hawaii out of them, their expectations for V-Day (which are fucking outrageous), when they expect to be proposed to and how big a ring he'd better show up with on the Big Night.

Never a word, I swear to you, never a word about the guy himself, just what they are getting out of him. HOES.

This may explain the bitter remarks you sometimes hear from some men.

Men: The truth is, your expectations are a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you think women are mercenaries, you will offer women bribes to get close to them, and mercenary hoes are the only women who will look at you twice. If you think women are all skanks, you will treat them all that way and the decent women will peel off like Blue Angels and you will be left surrounded by skanks who will sleep with all your friends as soon as your back is turned. Et cetera.

All the "official" dates I've ever been on were awkward disasters.

Men: The truth is, your expectations are a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Very true...very true...so the best way to win at this Dating Tap-Dance is to not expect anything but to have fun. Don't go looking for sex...don't go looking for a relationship...and don't go looking for the future ex...just go to enjoy yourself, and what happens, happens.

"Of course sir...your usual, Roofie Colada?"

Ha! Is that from Family Guy? I had a Quagmire moment :)

Your roomate? Was not just an asshole. She was an out-and-out HOE.

She really really was. I forgot to mention how she complained that her boyfriend bought her a Bath and Body Works gift set. She was awful. Meanwhile, my Valentine that year? Was my gay best friend :)

Don't go looking for sex...don't go looking for a relationship...and don't go looking for the future ex...just go to enjoy yourself, and what happens, happens.

Exactly...have no agenda, just have an assload of fun.

Funny, I still sign my name lowercase in most non-work places, now there's also a "jay" here. We're two people, in case anyone was, you know, worried about it. I know you were.

I just realized that Douglas Adams already spelled it out. Arthur Dent's saga with Tricia McMillan in the books is what most of my romantic roundabouts are like. You take millions of years and still never really get it together, then she gets married or the world blows up again and you get some closure. Tricia in the movie, then, is what I've figured out is about all that's worth waiting for. Bump into a girl somewhere, I know in about a minute that I can talk to her (and I can tell really quickly if it's not the case too but sometimes fight that proven instinct), and she picks up some of the initiative slack from my repressed timidity and we're off. Plus in the movie it works out better.

Someone asked if they were alone in not caring for Zooey Deschanel and if guys really do instantly fall for her. When she's playing someone like Tricia, yes. Sure, she's pretty and is basically "my type", but that scene at the party is a real personality that I've met before, not knowing why this person wants to include you in their fun, and busting your balls a little bit for the obvious skittishness in your nature. That's what suits me, and they're rare. But I suppose the right people ought to be.

Oh, but one thing I did learn from the time I was dumped at 15 (and realizing later that I had been such a sullen, solipsistic little bastard around that time too) is don't get back together. Someone may have mentioned that above. The same reasons to split come back, and faster and greater. The flaw has been revealed and you should learn and leave it.

"Roofie Colada?"

When I lived in Philly, we called that the "Jersey Martini".

Sorry. Please carry on.

"Irish German girls with an IQ that outstrips their weight by 20% are stubborn, mouthy bitches." I do have good qualities. Sometimes.
=================================================

I'm in the exact same boat, and I consider my stubborn, mouthy bitchiness to be one of my good qualities.

Kris...I'm a redhead...I don't think I'm trouble and drama but the dating has been sparse lately. Hmm - maybe I should try hair dye!
Or not...love me as I am or get the hell outta my face!

Oh, Kris, I consider my stubborn, mouthy, bitchiness to be a fantastic quality. Other people in my romantic life might not quite agree. I like to call those people "quitters". My actual negative qualities include inability to communicate emotionally and a hefty dose of shallowness. Also, I dyed my formerly coppery light brown/golden blonde hair bright red. I should just come with a warning label.

Maybe you just need your own Brock Samson, Rusty.

Julie will you be my wing girl?
Or will you be busy with Shadows?

*lonely sniffle*

Men who play guitars have no concept of the meaning of fidelity.

So true, so true.

I'm another one who has been with my other half for a very long time (15 years), so I have no good dating lessons. However, I have lots of good speculations on what it takes to maintain a healthy long term relationship and marriage, but no one ever seems to be interested in hearing that sort of thing.

On the self-fulfilling prophecies about the other sex, I'm watching my brother in law go through that right now. He can't understand why all the women he dates end up cheating on him, or leaving him in a not-so-nice way, but then openly brags about the 10 week "training course" he puts them through to determine if they're worthy of dating him or not. How do you explain that disconnect?

Longtime lurker, here...You commentaters (? sounds potato-ish)/commenters are AWESOME in this thread. It's nice to know I'm not alone and that there may be hope for me to find a man...even if I am approaching 40 ... *sigh* ... though independence is nice. And agreed, men, stay away from those crazy toxic women who want only status/consumer goods/a free ride BUT ALSO, enough with this putting out crap. Jerk off or something, but otherwise, let's just have fun, get to know each other and see where it goes. And if you just want sex, say so. It may not be with me, but at least you're not wasting my time and making yourself look like a jackass pretending to want something (relationship) when you really don't. Have the balls to be up front about what you're looking for. Harsh reality guy...I think I know where you're coming from, but maybe you should consider the type of women you are dating/attempting to date, how you're presenting yourself, what you want, etc. Sounds to me like you expect sex when you pay for something. That's more or less prostitution-ery. What kind of woman do you really want? We're not all the same, you know. And frankly, I would have thought that a decent man would appreciate a woman who waits and takes her time (AMEN on the earlier comment about anticipation etc.), rather than the quickie, yeah? A woman who waits, and considers, doesn't mean she's not a freak in bed. Maybe she wants to know she's got a man she can really enjoy getting freaky with, instead of a one minute wonder, you know?

Shadows, you actually spent a date wandering around a bookstore? Call me!

Oh, and by the way, to all the lovely redheads here: it's nothing personal. All the redheaded women I've ever dated have been wonderful, intelligent, warm people who just seemed to attract trouble. Just one of those strange trainwreck phenomena.

Only thing I've learned:

Be nicer.

(and call ahead when you're running late).

People don't date around these parts, they just bump into each other at parties and see if it sticks.

Jenn: YES! Dan (Savage) does have a great essay in here. Its title: "I Am A Gay Man"

High-five to all who've commented on the slut/prude dichotomy. It pisses me off on a regular basis - I've had many "almost starts" that haven't gone anywhere simply becuase of my "sluttishness" (or, what I prefer to call my "being a consenting adult over the legal age who knows what she wants and thus should be able to do whatever she damned well pleases-ness") I'm not too bothered about it though - after all it acts as a nice filtering system to weed out the absolute morons who buy into archaic expectations of "purity" and "restraint"... so there's always that.

(I'm having issues with this at the moment, can you tell?)

The main thing I've learnt from the most recent boy who dumped me: Don't start off by being meek and completely OK with taking a back seat to his wants. Either he'll claim you've "become someone esle" when you start acting like yourself or he'll get bored. Nobody actually wants a doormat. Never fear though I have reclaimed my stubborn, mouthy bitchiness (I'm stealing that for personal use - thanks Genny) and am now actively scaring people away. Hurrah!

Dating is the same around here Adere, very few of my friends actally do on actual dates with food and movies etc (I was horrified when I learnt that was how even teenagers did it in the states too, PaddyDog - yet another "Ow, you broke my mind" moment for me). I do tend to go out to dinner or for drinks with someone but then that's what I do when I hang out with my friends also (we live spread around the city and have busy lives - it's easier to meet somewhere central for dinner than for one person to trek to another's house) - plus I find it excruciatingly embarassing to be on a date with someone you barely know and to have to deal with their flatmates at the same time.

Oooh and also something I've learnt from the men I've rejected: While persistence and general rubbishness are cute and funny on TV and in the movies those characteristics are actually incredibly creepy in real life. *shudder*

Phew, that was long and not really coherent - oh well makes up for my week of not posting.

Jay, if I could find a Brock of my own, trust me, I'd already be married.

It's always the fictional ones. *sigh*

And Alex you and all the other stubborn, mouthy bitches are welcome to it. I'm just glad there's more out there.

Alex The Endearingly Odd:

Welcome back. The comments have been the lesser for your absence. Meanwhile, TK has gone on another war path, there are zombie wars all over the place, AlabamaPink is trying to keep us all sane, Vermillion has disappeared (whom should we blame?), BSlim is not popping in first anymore (I'm sending medics to his house to check) and Socalled is so quiet he must be planning something monumental. Oh yeah, Julie and Shadows continue their torrid online affair.

Biggest Lesson Learned:
If I guy says (out loud, to you) that "a guy will pretty much date any girl".

Run.

I like stubborn, mouthy bitchiness. After all, like Alex said, where's the fun in doormats?

Shadows: Welcome to the club. I made hats.

I made hats.

Tinfoil hats? Ooooh, shiny!

YAY!!! I like hats.

...wait a minute...this hat isn't really a zombie head converted to look like a hat that'll start munching on my brain and turn me into a zombie as soon as I put it on, is it? Sneaky monkey!

Yikes. I have a date to go on and now I am worried. Don't be a doormat, do have lots of fun I think I have it. Also I asked him out so I suppose that means I pay. Right?

Also I asked him out so I suppose that means I pay. Right?

Either try to avoid a date that involves spending money...like finding a local park hosting a fair or something like that...or do a date that is cheap but fun...like bowling.

That way, there's no feeling of compensation, and you get to talk...which is the point to a date.

Genny (also Rusty):
"Irish German girls with an IQ that outstrips their weight by 20% are stubborn, mouthy bitches."

There is someone else that is both Irish and German? Genny, you rule. I have both Irish and German, with a smidge of English somewhere. We are everything that you said above.

Things I have learned in years prior to the last 5:
-Male friends are awesome and can turn into something more.
-If you are going to date a friend, make sure you count the losses that can occur.
-Dumping me for a woman 4 states away who is an ex and you constantly fight is probably not going to end well for you as she will likely wind up screwing you over again.

Dating sucks as far as I can remember.

I have both Irish and German, with a smidge of English somewhere. We are everything that you said above.

You just described me, Miss Melody. I am mostly Irish, some German, but my last name is English.

Dating sexpectations make me really nervous, because I'm apparently the token Pajiba virgin (Please do not sacrifice me!), so it's different. It's like, "I DO NOT KNOW when I will have sex with you because I DO NOT KNOW anything about sex as pertains to my actual self." And then the nervous.

Actually, you know what: advise me, wise elders!

Melody, German and Irish are most dominant in my lineage. There's some fuzzy spots where English or Swiss genes may have snuck in, but we can't verify them. I like that we have our own little meme here at Pajiba.

Smithy, just don't sweat it too much. Sex is honestly only a super big deal if you or the other party (or parties, if that's how you roll)make it that way. Here are the two important things:

1. You should only have sex when it's right for you. Pushing yourself, or allowing someone else to push you into something you're not ready for or not comfortable with, can only result in awkward and horribly unsatisfying sex anyway, not to mention how it can mess with your head.

2. Anyone who considers you more than a meatbag plaything will respect your sense of self enough to wait until you're comfortable.

All the rest is just semantics, really.

"Dating sexpectations make me really nervous"
Smithy

Smithy!!! I went to Smith too, and for a very long time I also felt that way. Don't worry it will all work out in the end.

All Spanish here. Except for a smidgen of Italian, and just a wee bit of native.

Smithy, just keep everything said in this thread in mind, and don't fret about it. Take Sarina's words to heart...only do it when you feel ready for it, not if he's (or they are ...I don't know) pressuring you into it. It should never be a matter of "him getting off, you getting off", it should be something you are comfortable with, and with someone you are comfortable with (and wouldn't mind seeing with their clothes off....that is important, trust me).

It'll be okay...as was said in a very heartbreakingly intuitive movie..."It's just sex."

Smithy (I always spelled it "Smithie", but we're sisters, so it doesn't matter) and Ziva - I went to Smith, too. My pieces of advice to all (applicable at different stages of one's life):

1. Beware the man who idealizes you or any earlier girlfriend, for you can only disappoint him.
2. Beware the man who excessively trashes his ex, as this means he is still in love with her.
3. Beware the man who claims Ayn Rand as his favorite author, for he is a frat-boy-in-disguise (who has likely never finished even a single Ayn Rand book).
4. Beware the man who thinks his parents' marriage is perfect, for you will never, ever measure up.

The horror, the horror. Thank God I've been off the market for 25 years and am married to my best friend. I can only say that the most important thing I've learned is, If you think you might not like the answer, don't ask the question.

Sarina, Here's the cheapest of cheap-date stories:

For awhile in college I went out with ("dated" is probably a little strong) an extremely attractive Christian girl who was also in terrific shape (my roommate's mouth literally fell open when he saw her the first time). I asked her to a church service on or around Easter (I think it was), and she told me she wouldn't have gone out with me that day otherwise, so I must have some points there.

(Oh, maybe I put a dollar in the collection, I don't remember, so it might not have been the CHEAPEST date.)

Needless to say, there was no sexual tension there to mess things up, but it certainly didn't hurt my image (and self-image) to be seen around with someone so astonishingly pretty. And really, I think we enjoyed the times we went out (usually to a movie, which WAS a cheap date when I was a lad, in the 17th century; movies were a nickel, and gas? Hah! We rode the horse).

(I don't mean to come off as Mr. Nice, you understand; I'd have nailed her in a heartbeat.)

Anyway, I guess I was the one who broke it off, because a) she didn't return a phone call one night, which kind of bothered me, and b) it didn't feel like the relationship was going anywhere anyway (there seemed to be a supposed ex lurking in her background). But I liked her then, I have pleasant memories now, and things eventually worked out very well, for me at least. I hope they did for her.

But yeah, be creative. You don't have to spend a lot of money, or even any money, to enjoy someone's company.

I agree with what Sarina and Shadows said. If you get to the point that you're taking your clothes off in front of someone else, you'd better be super comfortable with them and able to trust them. Once you've gotten to that point, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and have fun.

Dear all stubborn, mouthy bitches (who may or may not be red heads) whose IQ outstrips their weight by 20%,

Call me.

Thanks.

"Awesome. Pajiba strikes again - I need a Netflix list for books now.

Posted by: twig at March 12, 2008 1:28 PM"

They have that, it's called a library, you can put books on your list online, and they call you when you can come pick them up. Quite convenient.