Pajiba

As soon as I read the love for Oregon pinot noir (and the correct pronunciation guide for my beloved Willamette Valley -- grew up in Lake Oswego and added the insufferable Beaver tag in Corvallis) I had to jump down and post...the rest has already become background noise.

Ted, if you haven't already savored the splendor that is the unfined and unfiltered pinot noir from Beaux Freres...well, my God, drop everything and do nothing else until you have procured a bottle of a suitably drinkable vintage (and buy every other bottle you can because you will be in full-blown orgiastic heat for that second bottle). And if you already know of what I speak, then your stature will be immeasurably burnished -- and you're already at a high sheen.

Where TDK is most critically lacking, however, is where Iron Man cranks pitch after pitch over the wall -- the humanizing element of humor, the baseline acknowledgment that if there's no laughter, then there's nothing worth saving.

I understand what you are saying here, but I think the key distinction should be the fact that Iron Man is meant to be set in the context of the world we live in. And I don't really think that's what Nolan is going for in the new Batman flicks, it's realistic, but I think Gotham is still meant to be a fictional city based solely on corruption, danger, and despair. Gotham to me is a less dark version of The Crow where humor isn't going to be as prevalent.

...RDJ better than Bale? yes. Paltrow better than Maggie? yes. Howard better than Eckhart? come onnnn, Howard could have not even been in Iron Man and I wouldn't have even noticed.

Not to say I wasn't chanting "Whoop that Trick" everytime he was on the screen...

I for one (not that it matters) think you're spot on. I enjoyed TDK. That's it. It wasn't the best thing I've ever seen and the hype is now becoming annoying. It's good, let it go. And I think had they taken Batman out of the movie I wouldn't have missed him much. I enjoyed Ledger and Eckhart's characters way more than Bale's. And his stupid 'the Batman' voice.

I've yet to see Iron Man, but will definitely do so.

That sounds...inspiring! I wonder if my friends will look at me funny if I bring a bottle of wine to Mamma Mia tonight. I suspect I'll need it.

Haven't seen either Iron Man or TDK yet, as I don't like the theatre--I prefer to sit on my comfy couch and drink all I want without fear of reprimand. I only go out to a movie when dragged by my aunt or girl friends. (Hence, SatC and Mamma Mia will most likely be the sum total of my summer movie-going experience. I know, I know....believe me, I know.....)

However, I can say with near-absolute certainty that I will prefer Iron Man to Batman, because dard drama and action sequences, on their own, don't do much for me. I'm more of a comedy gal in general.

Besides, I prefer the RDJ eye-candy to the Bale eye-candy.

I must say, this was a well done article. I indeed enjoyed TDK and Iron Man, and I have indeed "wet myself" over TDK (metaphorically of course), and made to choose I'd probably pick Dark Knight as the favorite.

However, I can appreciate that Iron Man is in the same level of stratosphere as TDK, and RDJ's performance is indeed quite epic. Iron Man kicked my ass at the beginning of the summer, and just when I was recovering and getting a little soft, The Dark Knight did it all over again. (Part of that was because of the Watchmen trailer disarming me before the total ass whipping that was TDK.)

Ultimately though, I side with the Dark Knight because it had what Iron Man didn't...a satisfying final conflict. Iron Man vs. Iron Monger was too short, and was very limited in the scope of its fight. (Which was still pretty damn good, just...confined.)

Dark Knight has a final action sequence that directly sets up the character for a third film, as opposed to Iron Man's "Well...that's done. What next? Oh yeah, I'm Iron Man, bitches." ending. Batman kicks the shit out of the cops, covers over Harvey Two Face's existence and takes the fall, and we know that when/if Batman 3 is made it'll pick up directly with that conflict, much like TDK did with the Joker thread at the end of Begins.

Again, well done, and sorry for taking too much of the page.

...RDJ better than Bale? yes. Paltrow better than Maggie? yes. Howard better than Eckhart? come onnnn, Howard could have not even been in Iron Man and I wouldn't have even noticed.

I concur. Eckhart was great in Batman, Howard was just there to get frustrated at Stark for being Stark. He was completely forgettable. It's not even close. Caine, Oldman, and Freeman were 10x's better than Howard.

I liked Iron Man well enough. Downey is a force of a nature. That said, he was the entire movie. His charm and presence made the movie what it was. He totally carried the film. I really think it would have been pretty forgettable but for Downey.

Not so for The Dark Knight. It was a better script. A more interesting story. It was a stronger group effort by the cast (for the most part).

er, "dark drama".

Interesting analysis. I think part of the issue is that not all that many people were aware of Iron Man before the media campaign blungeoned us into RDJ worshipping submission. However, Batman is insanely popular and Batman Begins is a great movie that did ok at the box office but has become near legendary on DVD. The Ledger hype helped, but TDK is 100% worthy of the acclaim it is receiving.

Iron Man is a great movie, but TDK has that something extra. Not only does it finally bring Joker to life in a way he has only existed in the comic books, it brings the ongoing battle that he and Batman wage in the comics to the screen and loses nothing in the translation. I'm a fan of the Frank Miller and post-Frank Miller Batman and watching this movie was like seeing a great comic brought to life. It is a dark movie, but the post Frank Miller era in Batman has some dark stories and Nolan has said that version of Gotham is where he is drawing his influences from.

We had the jokey version with Schumacher's travesties. If jettisoning all humor from the character is what it takes to deliver an authentic Batman to the screen, so be it.

On a side note, can we please ban the phrases "on the nose" and the even more irritating "too cute by half" from all future Pajiba reviews? I loathe those meaningless critic phrases like no other. Using them just comes across as both lazy and precious. Not that I am implying that of you, Ted. Just that the writers here have demonstrated ability far beyond having to rely on such hackneyed crutches.

Ted, this was really, really beautifully written. I loved both movies, and while I may not be totally in agreement with you, I only have one serious (and, I believe, legitimate) beef with your take. (Echoing Colin), Terrence Howard over Aaron Eckhart? For serious? Exasperated and sassy black military friend was certainly entertaining, and a good aspect of Iron Man. But Aaron Eckhart is fucking magnetic. I'll admit to a degree of man-crush after Thank You For Smoking, which I have not been able to surf past at any time, ever. Nick Naylor could probably convince me that Clay Aiken is straight. Man crush or not, however, he owned the screen for every second he was on it in The Dark Knight.

Ted, Ted, Ted....you're just asking for it, aren't you? You know someone's gonna take someone else to task for agreeing with you, and then someone else will throw a chair, and then we'll have another full-scale riot in here.

For what it's worth...I liked them both equally well...for all the reasons you listed. In their own different ways, they were fantastic movies. It just goes to show that even in a specialized genre like "comic book movies", there are significant differences and nuances that separate the Ironmen and Batmen from the Supermen

Boozehound, I'm gonna get your back on this one. While my first viewing of Iron Man really blew my socks off, my initial viewing of TDK left me slightly underwhelmed. I enjoyed TDK, but I didn't feel it necessarily lived up to the hype. (and the "Batvoice" really got on my nerves after a while.)

The early hype is probably where my perception of the two films originates. I went into Iron Man with few expectations and got a lot more than I bargained for. On the other hand, I went to see TDK after months of stellar reviews and the squeeing of breathless fanboys everywhere. The movie was solid, but I just don't get the Oscat buzz.

I love Bale and RDJ pretty equally, will watch any if their films, and would love to do dirty, nasty things to both. I hate having to choose on over the other because I'm completely loyal to each of them. But RDJ owned Iron Man and I must give props where props are due.

P.S. Christian, I still love you boo....call me!

Some of my best friends love TDK. (Also, some of them are black.)

LMFAO!

Having come down from my Oregon (or-uh-GUN) intoxication -- the lack of a distinguishable horizon here in Central Illinois being one of its high points -- I might as well weigh in on the commentary. I may have already squandered my objective credibility vis-a-vis the Boozehound, but I happen to agree. Completely. In fact, my only digression might be in the sequence of his wine consumption...although he did say that the Benton Lane was already uncorked.

At risk of being branded a one-trick pony, I should point out too that the Beaux Freres pinot has some major legs under it -- to the point where it would stand down scrapple...

Along with MO(eaux), I must sadly admit that I haven't seen either Iron Man or TDK yet (and I thank her for giving me the courage to speak up). Movie-goers who had described Blue Tooth lights, texting, JC Penney commercials and inappropriately young, loud children have confirmed my worst fears of the 'what if?'s inolved in taking a chance on big-screen blockbusters nowadays.

However, this initial ignorance on my part only makes the debate over which film is better that much more enjoyable to read; I think it's definitely safe to say that I have two excellent superhero movies to look forward to on DVD, in the comfort of my own home, with the appropriate wine to accompany each.

Who'd have thought we'd have this most-welcome dilemma a year ago?

I'll admit to being a fan of both films, although Iron Man as a comic book canon tends not to excite me like Batman does. However, TDK was a much better film. I agree with what's stated above - RDJ carried the entirety of Iron Man. I walked out of there in love with Tony Stark more than the film. TDK was a film where I was blown away by a carefully crafted story beautifully enacted by the whole cast.

As far as Ledger is concerned, I think you are full of shit. I've followed his career since he did "Two Hands" for fuck's sake...while he made a lot of fluff films, the talent was ALWAYS there...he just wasn't picking vehicle that brought it to the spotlight. I don't like comparatives - I won't say he could have been the next Brando or whatever, because he wouldn't have been. He would have simply risen to truly great things, in my opinion. His Joker was, for me and for many other people, truly terrifying. A man who causes that kind of destruction for the sake of making chaos is horrifying. At least Hannibal Lector had patterns. He was a serial killer - Ledger's Joker was just a maniac. There's a difference. And as an actress, I found the most compelling part of his performance the fact that I literally could not make myself aware of the fact that I was watching Heath play this part. I was watching the Joker. Every other character in that film, and in Iron Man while we're at it, was someone I could sit there and go "oh Christian/Aaron/Maggie/RDJ/Gwen...how lovely". During my second viewing of TDK, I actually tried to do that and couldn't. He was so buried in that character that there was no acknowledging where the actor began there. And THAT is truly great acting, regardless of what genre of film it is, or how much it grosses.

I wouldn't go and give a slew of awards nominations for TDK. As someone who hopes to get to vote as part of the Academy someday, I wouldn't rank it as a Best Picture or anything like that. But Ledger's performance is worthy at least of the nomination. It's too early in the season to say it's worth the win, but right now, I'd be disappointed to see it overlooked.

From a girly point of view--RDJ is one hot sexy motherfucker in Iron Man. Bale just didn't make my ovaries twitch like RDJ.

Not to threadjack, but Brendan Frasier has a fairly amusing/thoughtful article here today.

It makes a good case for why I like him.

(Have not seen Batman yet. It's like No Country for Old Men - I have to be in the right mood for that much nihilistic volence.)

Ted, you sure do write purty for a drunk.

You make some excellent points about the shifting breezes of public perception and what they can mean to how certain films are received.

I haven't seen either film yet, but plan to see both eventually; and I think your observations above will be with me when I do.

While both TDK and Iron Man are good movies. I do agree with you that Iron Man was better, not just because it had RDJ and Paltrow, but also because it was tighter movie. For some reason when I watch TDK, I kept thinking: 'oh this is the big ending fight' and it wasn't, I kind of thought this so many times that the movie started to drag for me. Not sure if anyone else felt the same way. But it's glad to know there are people out there willing to criticize it even after those fans went after the New York critics. Although, admittedly, their critiques were a bit less objective and more snobbish.

This piece makes me all the mor pissed I haven't seen Iron Man yet.

Also, any movie required to have Black Sabbath in the trailers always starts with a 1/2 point advantage.

I'm with Mike R. on this one- what Iron Man lacked was a really good ending. Plus, i think it's slightly unfair to compare the origin story Iron Man (always meatier in the character development) to the sequel story of Dark Knight- it'd be almost a better comparison to take Spiderman, Batman Begins and Iron Man and watch them all in one afternoon and yeah, now that I've said it, as soon as Iron Man comes out that is pretty much my weekend plans...

But ANYwho, I'd like to give you mad props for the fair Joker / Ledger analysis. Where I did find him terrifying (random acts of unrestrained violence terrify me more than purposeful ones) I didn't find Ledger to be the be all, end all, and the LAST thing the franchise should do is shy away from the character. Any suggestions for who should take up the helm? My vote is Stuart Townsend, the "can't catch a break to save his soul, too skinny to be Aragorn" actor I'd like to see take on something of substance. That's just me.

There is a hilarious (IMO) YouTube channel by ItsJustSomeRandomGuy who does these "I'm a Marvel, I'm a DC" spots and they flat out funny comparisons of some of the movies. The series of Batman and Iron Man spots are dead on (and really illustrate how similar the themes are) and I cannot get enough of a wide-eyed innocent Spiderman inadvertently ripping on a past-his-prime Superman.

I had exactly the opposite reaction to the humor in [i]Iron Man.[/i] One of the most jarring things in the film, to me, was the stupid product-placement Burger King "joke" of needing a good old 'Merican cheeseburger upon returning to the States. And this is coming from someone who knows all too well the junk food cravings of living in a land with no Big Macs. Tony Stark *was* funny, he was sarcastic, and that suited his character. I simply don't think you should be able to predict when a joke is coming.

Both movies were very good, both were engrossing, and I'd see either of them again in a heartbeat. But what gave [i]TDK[/i] the edge for me was the two scenes where the Joker is explaining how he got his scars. The first time, I expected it...after all, every villain needs a back story. The second time...wow. Totally different story, showing exactly how random and trivial the back story would be.

I agree with most of your points about what makes a good movie, but I disagree with your conclusion. It isn't because TDK is darker that it is presumed better, it's better because it's infinitely more layered, packs more story and is aesthetically superior. The tragedies that form the characters give them a beautiful sadness and depth, something I missed in the villains from Iron Man. RDJ is fantastic in it (duh), but the movie didn't grab me the way TDK did. I was physically affected by the on screen events and left the theatre exhausted, but somehow longing for more.

Speaking of longing, how's about an IronBat sandwich? Yes please! I can see it now...
The boys fighting over who has the better toy collection in my supersecret underground layer (okay, not so secret anymore since the batpod tracks lead straight up to the waterfall and Ironbuns keeps blowing holes in my roof) untill I intervene and distract them with my voluptuous lady bits. Batbody starts crying because he fears he might lose me and can't go through that again, not after what happened to Rachel (bitch ditched his ass for a blonde dude without any mechanically enhanced superpowers, but whatever, I'll take them sloppy seconds with an extra helping of sloppy, thank you very much)and Ironmeany mocks him relentlessly for it. They get into another fight, in mud, wearing nothing but bat ears and rocket boots (don't judge, friday is 'drinking cocktails nekked day' at my layer) and after I've watched them for a few hours, I'm forced to separate them again and hose them down. Dripping wet and guilt-ridden they look at up at me with those rock hard erections and I find myself unable to stay mad at them. We hop on the Wayne private jet whilst Ironrocket writes sweet nothings in the night sky for me. The "bite me batty boy" breaks the mood somewhat but I don't let it get to me. After we dance the night away on a deserted island beach I let the superboys fly me home and take me to bed...

What!?!

I'm not crazy, maybe just a little drunk. I told you friday was 'drinking coacktails nekked day'...

The only fair way is to have my crotch decide. And I have going to have to go with CB. RDJ would be way kinkier but dirtier. And by dirtier I mean reeking of stale beer and smokes. And possibly B.O. It's a lot easier to train a man to do improbably raunchy things to you in bed than to convince him to improve his hygiene, especially if your going to fuck him anyway.

Wednesday, While it is stupid to have product placement used as a joke (unless of course we're talking about Wayne's World), the whole Burger King thing is funny if you consider RDJ's off camera life and the fact he cited Burger King as his main resource for getting off his drug addiction.

Pants...you had me til you got to the homoerotic scenes. What exactly do you put in those cocktails...absinthe and forget-me-nots?

Virginblood and rocketfuel, why?

I enjoyed the hell out of Iron Man, and would definitely add it to my best flicks of the year list...but what the fuck ever. I can't even remember large chunks of the movie. It was an excellent action movie. RDJ was pretty and perfect. Terrance Howard was wasted, and Jeff Bridges was completely forgetable. While I can't argue that TDK was perfect, Bale was great, Eckhart was great, Gyllenhall was...okay, forgetable. BUT FUCK YOU with all your anti-Joker talk.
I actually walked in expecting to be underwhelmed considering all the over-exposure before I saw the movie. It took about 5 minutes of him on screen (which I spent smiling in amazement the whole time) before I completely forgot Heath existed and just completely believed in The Joker. The needy relationship between him and Batman made him the only villain worth remembering in either of these 2 movies.

That being said, Boynton, I thoroughly enjoyed this Boozehound...definitely my favorite read of yours.

Mr. Boozehound, sir, I commend you on the thoughtfulness of this essay. You have written a well-thought-out and eloquently worded argument.

I have not yet seen Iron Man, so I cannot agree with or argue any point you've made. I will say that I agree that the hype for TDK was a bit much; and after seeing it with a friend, we talked about how it was a shame that Ledger had died because it overshadowed everything else, including not only an excellent performance by Aaron Eckhart, but every other release this summer. I will argue a little about Ledger's performance; I didn't necessarily think "Oscar", however, it was phenomenal. I really felt he embodied the persona of the character rather than acted it. Again, I haven't seen Iron Man as yet, but I have loved RDJ in everything I've ever seen him in (and that includes Fur; he made Nicole Kidman watchable [not that the movie was watchable, but he was]); he really is one of the finest actors we have. I love Bale, too, don't get me wrong. He was terrific in American Psycho, which really was quite (oh, yeah, that's right, I'm gonna say it) underrated.

I really am just babbling a whole bunch here, aren't I? The point of my long-winded story is, Mr. Boozehound, you've written a beautiful piece here, and you've made me want to compare the two films for myself. I can't wait.

"Dripping wet and guilt-ridden they look at up at me with those rock hard erections and I find myself unable to stay mad at them."

It got weird, didn't it?

I just realised it's lair not layer. My English be damned!!! Wait, I'll just blame it on the cocktails... Have a good weekend everyone!

Well, I like Iron Man that tiny smidgen more for one little, practically miniscule reason...

Pepper Potts not being forced to suffer the whole "Woman in the Refridgerator Syndrome".

Yeah. That just...niggled me somewhat in TDK.

Sorry Sean, again; cocktails, nuff said...

(Hence, SatC and Mamma Mia will most likely be the sum total of my summer movie-going experience. I know, I know....believe me, I know.....)

MO(meaux)...you know, if you go to an IMAX theatre, it's not as bad as a regular theatre. The $14 ticket kinda keeps out the dregs of movie going. (I only say kinda because my first screening of Dark Knight was in front of yappy college bitches who blathered on about connecting people between movies and wanting to suck Heath Ledger off if he were still alive. Classy bunch, those ladies. They made me envy The Comedian in having a flamethrower.)

[whines] I want to spend an afternoon watching back to back movies at a theater and drinking two bottles of wine. I can't imagine a time in the next ten years, at least, where that would be possible.

Not having any ability to see movies when they first come out right now, and knowing I will have to wait for DVD to see both of these, I have no comment on your analysis other than that it was entertaining. But what I am wondering is if it's possible that the glorious pub/bar theater hasn't yet made it to the bay area. How could that be? Are you really still reduced to sneaking alcohol into a movie? Self-respecting San Franciscans shouldn't allow that to be.

Pants, I think I'd like to live in your world. Between Nekkid Cocktail Fridays and delicious sandwiches, I feel I'd be right at home.

You are, in fact, the pants.

I totally agree with you on this. After seeing TDK, I was all like, mmmm OK, whatever. And I actually like the Hulk best out of the 3.

Purse full of Corona at the midnight showing of TDK, but I'm not really a wine drinker.

This is sacrilege, bar none, but. . . I would hit RDJ before Bale. I love Bale, but I've loved RDJ since that Air America. Bale is relatively new to my top 5, but I would still happily have mind sex with him over coffee.

twig...that article just makes me love Brendan Frasier more. Even if his crap movies are crap, he has fun doing them, and it shows.

Three good movies? Seriously, even for a teen comedy "10 Things I Hate About You" is a good movie (sits lofty with "Can't Hardly Wait" as a teen movie that's actually enjoyable and watchable). Before TDK it was my favourite movie Ledger had been in.

And while A Knight's Tale wasn't exactly a great movie, and I kind of found Ledger annoying in it, it had an absolutely fantastic supporting cast.

I thought it was "Girlfriend/Wife in the Refrigerator Syndrome", but Cookie is 100% right.

Iron Man was a fun, entertaining, glorious film but TDK managed to leapfrog to my second favorite movie of all time by my third viewing, whereas IM will always be my second favorite comic book movie. I also have to disagree with the Ledger criticism- I never get scared or creeped out while watching movies, but his Joker managed to do both.
I don't think TDK is overrated, but as with all widly successful or well-loved media phenomena, there will be a certain amount of backlash from those who disagree. So I will simply have to weather the hate storm until it subsides and I can revel in TDK's glory in peace and not get riled up to defend it whenever a negative word is said about it.

I thought it was "Girlfriend/Wife in the Refrigerator Syndrome"

You can just go with 'getting fridged.' The fact that it's a woman is pretty much implied.

With it's origins here, I believe.

Also, Terrance Howard versus Aaron Eckhart? I'm going with the rapping pimp.

Boyton, are you trying to impress those black friends of yours? It's a slippery slope my friend, we're a fickle bunch.

For me, I find it hard to compare the two since I feel like the material was so different, both in tone and direction. Ironman really set out to be that big summer fun action movie and burned the britches off that bitch in that respect. But, TDK's scope seemed much bigger with them trying to ground it in reality(except for the dude in bat suit parts) and make it into a good movie instead of a good comic movie.

In terms of acting, Ironman could've been advertised as, "Come see Robert Downey Jr. be AWESOME. Now with 88% percent more gadgets and wet panties!", and that would have been as accurate a description as any. That movie was designed for him to shine and everyone else was kinda forgettable. TDK felt stronger overall, in terms of acting, because the other characters were so well performed and integral to the storyline. Simply put, Ironman blew me away because of RDJ and TDK blew me away as a whole.

I agree that the whole Heath Ledger/greatest-performance-eva wave is a little over the top. His performance was great, but more than anything it made me sad to think of all the work that we'll never see from him especially since he was just starting to get the kind of roles that really show what he can do. Should he get an Oscar? Who cares? I couldn't even pawn that shit for a week's worth of gas.

It's nice to discuss this, though. I would love to do it at home, but my boyfriend is a rabid foaming-mouth fanboy. For instance, anytime I even think about mentioning the crazy McGruff batvoice, he just gets this sad look in his eyes and he starts asking about the cheapest places to buy tarp, bleach, and lime. Then he says that we should go camping at these secluded locations that he's repeatedly circled in red marker on maps, while asking me if God really forgives all sins...happens every time.

I'm hoping 10 Things I Hate About You was #3.

It's hard for me to compare these two, for a few reasons:

1. I was crapping my pants to see TDK, and my high expectations were met, whereas I was reluctant to see Iron Man but I ended up absolutely loving it. Not really level playing fields to gauge my take on them by.

2. The style of movie is too different for me to compare. Yes, they're both comic book movies, but (as others have mentioned) they're not aiming for the same tone at all. Sure, there were some "comical" lines in TDK, but wouldn't we all agree it's meant to be more of an action-drama? On the other hand, Iron Man, like most comic-related movies, may have a message, but is going to do it with plenty of light-hearted moments along the way.

3. As has been mentioned by others, RD, Jr. carried the hell out of Iron Man. The rest of the cast was good, but goddamn if Bale, Gyllenhaal, Ledger, Eckhart, Oldman, etc. etc. didn't completely embody their roles. (Oh, and I can't agree that Ledger wasn't 100% pee your pants amazing. Frankly, I think he'd be getting the same acclaim had he not passed, although some of the other actors, like Eckhart, might not have been overshadowed.)

Hmmm... I guess I had more opinions on the matter than I thought.

For instance, anytime I even think about mentioning the crazy McGruff batvoice, he just gets this sad look in his eyes and he starts asking about the cheapest places to buy tarp, bleach, and lime. Then he says that we should go camping at these secluded locations that he's repeatedly circled in red marker on maps, while asking me if God really forgives all sins...happens every time.

There always has to be at least one time every week when I bathe my monitor in coffee, doesn't there?

jM, you took the words out of my mouth.
Iron Man kicked serious ass, but TDK was an otherwordly experience for me.

Excellent article once again, and double kudos for the "overrated" part. That was always a ridiculous assessment. I get things being underrated, but overrated? Ugh.

One thing that I feel I did have to say was that it is a bit unfair to compare the two, since they were going in completely different directions.

TDk is dark. Pretty fucking dark for a movie, let alone a summer blockbuster. So a person has to be in the right mindset to welcome such a dark movie. It is the reason I still have not seen There Will Be Blood: I just need to be ready to take it all in. Iron Man, on the other hand, has that lighter feeling to it that is more acceptable to audiences. And it isn't a lesser movie because of it, just different.

Plus, there is one key reason why Batman seems so damn dark: no sidekicks. The whole thing in the comics about Robin was that he represented the child side of Batman, the one that died with his parents. Batman has been portrayed as constantly brooding and such, and only when Robin or Batgirl was around did he lighten up some. The sidekicks are the humanizing element, and since Nolan decided to forgo that, and hasn't really found a replacement, I think that is why the movies seem so depressingly bleak.

I can't say which was the better movie to me, but I will say that Iron Man was the better summer blockbuster "rock out with some popcorn and soda" movie.

P.S. I do have to join the others in saying that Howard, while quite good in his role, had nowhere near the meat that Eckhart et al did. Now, once he becomes War Machine, that will certainly change...

Ted Boynton is permanently in my 5 Freebies.

That is all.

I have yet to see Iron Man, so I can't compare the two, but I did think that The Dark Knight was a pretty incredible movie. It certainly wasn't a religious experience, and it definitely is not the Greatest Movie Ever Made Oh My Deep Growly Voiced Superhero Yes YES Harder YES!...but it was insanely entertaining. I do slightly disagree with your assessment of Ledger's Joker...he scared the panties off of me while simultaneously moistening them (two hated words for the price of one, oh god that felt good). He was menacing and vicious without turning into a caricature, and yet he was mesmerizing and even slightly charming. I loved the performance, I thought Ledger took the role and beat the shit out of it. I do hate the idea of people drooling over the performance because his death was untimely and because otherwise would have been too disappointing to bear...but I did truly adore every second he was on screen.

I do agree with your take on Gyllenhaal's take on Rachel or whatever the hell her name was...I thought she was bland and at times her acting seemed out of place. I can't tell if it is solely the actress' fault, or if the character was simply too one-dimensional to aptly convey. But scenes with her? Meh meh meh.

Wow, three of my favorite things. I agree with most of the points in the article, but I still think The Dark Knight is superior. I've seen both films twice. Iron Man had a more compelling lead character, lead actor, and romantic interest. It was certainly more fun, but Tony Stark was the only really well developed character. Actually, I thought Iron Man had a stronger ending - unexpected, but in keeping with the character. The Dark Knight got a little preachy.

But, the pacing in Iron Man dragged in places (basically, in any scene that didn't include RDJ). Also, none of the action sequences really blew me away. In contrast, Nolan and his editors paced The Dark Knight exceptionally well. The action sequences were impressive and well-shot. The Dark Knight also had more effective music; especially that one drawn out note they used for the Joker. As for the tension-from-an-evil-presnce aspect, I found the Joker to be terrifying and was weirded out by how many people found his scenes laugh-out-loud funny. But, I think clowns are inherently creepy anyway. Jeff Bridges, however, always reminds me of a teddy bear.

Watching The Dark Knight I had actually forgotten all about how it was Heath Ledger under the makeup up to the, "HEhhh...this is what happens when an unstoppable force...meets an immovable object. We're destined to do this forever." line and then I got a little bummed out only wishing it could be true.

As opposed to Jeff Bridges who I kept going, "Heyyy! It's The Dude! On a Segway smoking a cigar!"

Which isn't just a matter of acting quality but of immersion. I mean I could actually feel the tragedy of what happens to Harvey Dent as opposed to...uhh...that one guy who helps Tony Stark build his armor back in that cave. He was...a pretty cool guy...I guess. OOO! Flamethrowers, one-liners, and jet boots oh my!

They're two very different movies and Iron Man is most excellent in its own way but I have to say I liked The Dark Knight so much better.

Okay, TMax, that's it--you've got yourself a double-feature-on-the-couch date!

Er, you don't mind if my husband comes along, do you?

Burger King as his main resource for getting off his drug addiction.

You know that your restaurant is crap when it convinces a druggie to sober the hell up.

I have yet to see Iron Man. I have seen TDK though. Ledger's performance was good, but Eckhart's was more impressive to me. His performance stuck with after the movie. It was good, but not great. I actually enjoyed Batman Begins better, but simply because I enjoyed the way the backstory was told. It was well written and well acted.

The only other movie I need this year to be happy is my beloved, 007. MMMMMMmmmm...Daniel Craig...MMMMMMmmmmmm...shiny cars....mmmmm....shiny weapons....Mmmmmmm

I'm sorry. What were we discussing?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! CYBERFLOWERS TO YOU!!!!

I ask friends and coworkers for fun and curiosity which film entertained you most Iron Man or TDK?
While most say TDK they really are impress that Iron Man can hold its own and for a film not so overblown hyped and sensationalized tragedy like Heath Ledger looming the TDK success so many really gave major props to Iron Man esp Robert Downey Jr. Even many women now are swooning over him than Bale. On the kids population:
Spidey or Iron Man? not surprisingly kids are moving on to Iron Man.

LB, excellent observation on the held-out note in the TDK score for Joker. I think it really added to the atmosphere of dread and urgency.

Great, total comment-bait, Ted! I'm pissing in the river here!

He was so buried in that character that there was no acknowledging where the actor began there. And THAT is truly great acting, regardless of what genre of film it is, or how much it grosses.

Exactly, Kat. I had no perception of him being Heath Ledger. Granted, he's wearing makeup, but even then, he is just so gone. Alec Guinness style, man! I'm not me, I'm the part. Oscar or not, it is truly a commendable performance.

Aaaand yes, even with my predilection for darker, shorter hair, I kinda like looking at Pepper more. But again! It's that lingering short-hair-"Sliding Doors"-permanent-crush that gives Gwyneth an edge in these kinds of things. No slighting on Maggie here.

I've fallen behind on my viewing, but it's not because I avoid theaters (damn if I say it you can slap me RIGHT HERE) but my weekends have been cluttered with a bunch of junk, like moving. I'm off today but I had to go to the dentist at 9, get a haircut, then a washing machine's getting delivered then someone's coming over a little after that and then I work the rest of the weekend. Bleagh!! I'll just hope X-Files is still around next weekend (I do avoid ticket prices at night after work).

LB, excellent observation on the held-out note in the TDK score for Joker. I think it really added to the atmosphere of dread and urgency.

I second that, the music was so creepy!

LB, excellent observation on the held-out note in the TDK score for Joker. I think it really added to the atmosphere of dread and urgency.

I second that, the music was so creepy!

Hearhear, I play it in my car all the time now.

At first I thought the speakers were going static, unnerving, to an even greater effect.

I still have to see IM, the guy doesn't resonate that much here. While TDK still left quite some room for improvement (where the hell was that Batmobile exactly during the chase?) it counts as one of my best movie-going experiences ever.

Now an online discussion I have yet to see unfold: Joker or Chigurh, who scares you most?

At the risk of ignoring all those commentors who came before me (I wish I had the time to read them; but who really has the time to read them all?), I'll just say that you, sir, echo beautifully what I've felt since viewing TDK but have felt uncomfortable voicing given the rabid pronouncements of the Second Coming.

A great movie, with a great performance, but neither are exceptionally memorable save for the hype surrounding them. And ever since Ledger's death, it's bothered me that "people" have thrown the film, his performance, and his general legacy out of proportion. Not only is it ridiculous, it also smacks of exploitation.

And there's my two cents.

Jay, I completely understand. I once moved four times in one summer. It changed me...

[hums lullaby while rocking back and forth]

Ted, this is so thoughtful, and very well-written, and even though I adore TDK and Christian Bale about, oh, 50 times more than Iron Man and RDJ, I'm actually glad that there are some people who found TDK less than perfect. People with actual, well-thought-out opinions! Amazing.

I thought everyone in TDK did a wonderful job - all the leads were perfect. I actually did like Gyllenhaal, even if I can't spell her name for the life of me (and if what I spelled was correct, it was purely by accident, I assure you). Whereas Iron Man really only gave RDJ a chance to shine (which he ran with).

I do agree 100% about the lack of humour in the Batman films. That was actually the first thing I said when I left the theatre. "Amazing. It was SO better than Iron Man. The only area in which IM trumps this is humour. Thoroughly trumps it." What Ted said about it grounding the film is true, and so well put.

On the other hand, the two movies were entirely different in tone, and arrived with entirely different expectations, and I'm not entirely sure they can be compared fairly on any level except which one a particular viewer enjoyed more.

And, like many have said above, I think it's great that there can be such an intelligent discussion about it. I don't think there's been a single mud-slinging yet! Of course, the day is young.

FINALLY!!!!

TDK is not the end all be all of films. It is flawed. Iron Man is too, don't get me wrong. Boozehound, you have nailed it on the head.

I think both movies are very bad for the inner world of a human. They both depress and harm the human soul. The Ironman is a bit less offensive.

I would prefer Ironman, if I would have to watch one of the two mentioned movies.

I think both movies are very bad for the inner world of a human. They both depress and harm the human soul. The Ironman is a bit less offensive.

...

Well, then.

Anyone for a drink?

I agree 100%. I was actually sufficiently underwhelmed by Batman (saw it on IMAX, but was in a crappy seat, so that didn't help), that when I went out to the bathroom before the end, I didn't bother going back in. I just wasn't that interested.

Iron Man was my preference, for exactly the reasons you mention. It was the same reason I preferred Firefly to Serenity. I'm sick to the gills of "dark and edgy".

Frankly, I'm amazed how no one has caught on to the gay undertones on both films. Together they have surpassed Top Gun as the most homoerotic films ever made.

Iron Man? ah? The quest of a guy who's not satisfied by even a year's worth of Maxim centerfolds? Terrence Howard lovingly looking into his eyes? Iron? Black Guy? Huge?

Dark Knight: What true heterosexual male goes out in public with Maggie Gyllenwhatsherface! C'mon!

Be my "wingman" anytime, indeed.

Now an online discussion I have yet to see unfold: Joker or Chigurh, who scares you most?

Ooh! Ooooohh! Can we do a comment diversion on favorite villains based off of this? And what makes our fav choice effective and terrifying? Pretty please? With lots of alcohol on top?

I second that, but defined from what medium. Movie, comic, real-world, literary, all of the above...

On Heath Ledger:

I am not an actor and I have no real eye for acting talent but I am a movie lover and scathing critic. So I cannot say whether or not Heath Ledger always had that special spark or whether, had he not met such an untimely death, he would have become one of the acting legends of his generation. I will say this though, the majority of the movies that I saw him in were absolutely awful (I must say I've never seen Brokeback). Never offensively bad, but always laughably silly (except for Four Feathers which was both offensively bad and laughably silly). So while I'm sure he was a great guy, and a keener eye may have seen hidden talent, from a regular, mainstream movie watcher's point of view he was an actor whose movies I would always seek out in the aisles at Blockbuster because I knew I would have entertainment and giggles all at Heath's expense.

That being said I think the fact that he died before this movie was released is even more tragic because it has led to positions like the one taken by TB Boozehound. Because Heath Ledger died, TDK was thrust into a brand new light and his role as joker became his final showcase. This led to a few different stances, two of the most prominent being: A) Heath Ledger deserves an Oscar no matter what because, come on, he died B) Heath Ledger didn't really do that good of a job as The Joker and his performance is being glorified due solely to the timing of his death.

In fairness, us cynics and sarcastics are the main supporters of Point B and are driven to such by the pop culture sheep who have shoved Point A down our throats. But unfortunately both Point A and Point B are driven by perception and not reality and therein lies an additional tradgedy of Heath Ledger's death. His absolute triumph as TDK's Joker is marginalized by his death, and instead of being celebrated or criticized for his actual performance (which was the shit) he is celebrated and criticized based on the hype surrounding his death. The saddest thing about all this is that it had to occur when he gave the world a performance that was not just better than anything that he had ever done, but on par with any great performance that I have ever seen. He took The Joker, a role that is so familiar that Freddie Prinz Jr. could have serviced it, and created a brand new standard for what a villain should be. He was complex, ruthless, funny, intelligent, and batshit crazy and Heath Ledger (FUCKING HEATH LEDGER PEOPLE, REMEMBER THE BLUEBERRY KISS IN "THE PATRIOT"!!!!!!) brought all of those characteristics to light in such a way that it left me awe inspired. Never scared you TB Booze? I call bullshit. Ledger's joker was the perfect mix between two of the hardcore supervillains you referenced above. He harnessed the control of the insightful, troubled, but vicious Hannibal Lecter and the chaotic unpredictability of Gary Oldman's psychotic, shotgun wielding, little kid blasting asshole of a cop in The Professional.

Prior to this role I found Heath Ledger to be an actor suited for Hangover Cinema, subsequent to this role, who knows, he may have starred in 30 more Knight's Tale caliber movies. But for his unforeseen acting finale as The Joker he shocked 95% of the cinematic world, and I can't help but think that the other 5% are just lying to themselves because the "cool guy - I march to the beat of my own drum - all of you are sheep - I refuse to conform" side of them just can't accept that something can be THAT good.

TB Booze he was ALL THAT and a bag of cinnamon flavored pita chips and perhaps you won't realize that until he is replaced with a different Joker in future movies, but at some point I think you will.

*sigh* Thanks for the tip, Mike R., but sadly I am about 6 hours' drive from the nearest IMAX theatre.

I've never even been to one!

I'd love to remedy that next time I'm in the big city, though....

Batman loses when he's got that fugly Maggie Gyllenhaal and his production connection is just the Chicago Police unlike Iron Man has the back up of the U.S. Air Force. Who is the supreme power and powerful military in the world?
United States military not Chicago Police.

Damn, now I'm mad at myself for not trusting my instincts and posting on Joker v. Chigurh. I had the same thought, Adere, insofar as recent cinematic homicidal misanthropes go. You don't reveal your own predilection...what's up with that?

I don't think it's a contest myself -- Chigurh in a landslide. Chigurh can blend in, so there's that "Is it him?" factor (like that white-knuckle scene in the hotel room where Josh Brolin is watching the shadows flicker under the door) that the Joker can't match.

You don't reveal your own predilection...what's up with that?

Inconclusive with a logical tilt towards Chigurh. He looks just as outworldly as that angelfaced clown to me, I'd be taking the next bus if he was at the same stop. Yet, after all, he was a hired gun (yes?) for some mobsters or druglords, The Joker just made himself appear like one.

Now if I saw Chigurh burn the money, I'd be totally shitpants.

Eckhart was Dent right? If so I have no idea what people are going on about. I thought he was card board cutout boring. The Dent character was defined much more by what other people said about him then by anything he said or did himself. That being said he was still much better then the black air force buddy in Iron Man.

And you are completely wrong about Ledger's Joker. He ate that part and shit out gold.

And I agree with the people who said Iron Man was carried by RDJ. He was awesome, but the rest of the movie was very average, the big show down at the end was disappointing and overall Jeff Bridges was a bad choice.

Being fresh from a viewing of The Dark Knight, I will say the movie wasn't perfect, but it was darn impressive. Iron Man was a great, highly entertaining action movie. But TDK is a comic book movie; the film's structure follows very closely that of a comic book/graphic novel, as does its somewhat dense dialogue and layered storyline.

Source material has a lot to do with the tone of both movies. I was never a IM reader, so I can't say how it compares, but I do know that Batman, especially the Frank Miller take, tended to be bleak and in the gutter. Not a shitload of zingy one-liners and sight gags and smirks to be had there.

As for Ledger's performance, I was highly impressed at how he managed to be maniacal without being over-the-top looney tunes (which to a degree I saw in Oldman's Professional performance). I agree with several others who've said they lost sight of the actor and were taken in wholeheartedly by the character. Makeup aside, I wasn't aware of Ledger at all which is a keen accomplishment in acting.

The Joker wasn't Boo! scary; he was disturbing. Every moment he was on screen, I squirmed in dread at what he would do next. Ledger's many oily little bits of business only amplified the notion that the Joker isn't just some posturing peacock villain. He's a seriously rotten nut without any motivation to commit crimes except that it entertains him.

Excellent review and comparison, Ted. I completely agree with you about Iron Man. Unfortunately, I haven't seen TDK yet (tonight, after work, bottle of wine), so I can't agree or disagree. I'll probably agree. My real question is: how did the wines compare???? which was better?

Oh and I totally think Ledger will score a posthumous Oscar nom if just to possibly boost viewership of the ceremony. In the end, the Academy is all about business.

Agreed, Alabama, (most) Oscars are just a marketing tool.

Damn, my comment on the Joker vs. Chigurh debate didn't post. Shit, I wrote a huge thing and was all proud of it. I have failed you, Adere. Simply put, The Joker is scarier in my opinion. Why? Because he's twisted, deranged, and thrives on chaos. Compared to him, Chigurh is nothing more than a hitman. He has motivation. True, we do not know that motivation, but it's there.

Joker, on the other hand, is lethally intelligent, uses war paint as his "normal" face, and his actual face as a disguise, and gets into your head and uses it against you.

If this were a fight produced by Don King it's be The Man (Chigurh) vs. The Plan (Joker).

Well written Ted. You bring up a lot of very good and valid points. In my mind if TDK would have cut off a good 15-20 minutes and injected just a slight bit more humor it might have been perfect.

I think hype and perception have at least a small role in judging these movies. I've never cared for Iron Man. I knew who he was but I didn't have any previous knowledge or love for him, unlike Batman who I loved despite a childhood full of crappy onscreen depictions (aside the original Batman). The reviews for Iron Man were great. But I was still skeptical and without expectations going in. So I think it was easier to be blown away by the unknown, smaller expectation of Iron Man. And rightfully so, it was a very good film for all of the reasons you state.

TDK on the other hand was about as hyped as you can get. And given how solid its predicesor was, expectations were very high. Upon my first viewing on TDK I thought it was a very good film, not quite great. As my dad put it, I didn't walk out of the theater with the same "holy shit that was good!" feeling that I did with Iron Man. But a second viewing (even a 3rd for TDK) changed my mind.

I gave Iron Man a second viewing and I came away with the same impression, a very good movie. But that excitement was gone. I wasn't blown away like I was with the first viewing. TDK on the other hand kept the excitement up. With Iron Man I knew what was coming and kind of took away from it. I knew what was coming in TDK but I was eager for it to get there. I think the first viewing was a bit difficult because the scope is so large and there is so much intensity that its hard to fully grasp everything. With the second viewing I was better able to do that. Things were a bit clearer. I walked out of the second viewing of TDK with the sense that I had just seen a great movie. And I found it no less enjoyable than I did the first viewing, even moreso. The third viewing was just as good, so much that I'll probably see it a fourth time with my mom who hasn't seen it yet.

I did not find Heath Ledger's Joker frightening either ...

but, I didn't find Hannibal Lecter or Roy Batty (Rutger Hauer in "Blade Runner") frightening either.

why? because I'm simply not scared by psychotic clowns or renegade androids ... I am afraid of serial killers ... but I found "Silence of the Lambs" to be boring ... let's not even mention "Hannibal" or "Red Dragon" ...

the only movie character I've found actually frightening is John Huston's role in "Chinatown" ... or Bruce Willis in "North" ... but "North" was freaky in general

I wrote an article very similar to this a few weeks ago. While mine was devoid of alcohol, it seems we ended up with somewhat similar viewpoints. Perhaps, you'd like to take a look at mine...
http://recycledfilm.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/the-dark-knight-vs-iron-man/

I agree that The Dark Knight is overrated. However, Iron Man is even more overrated. The Dark Knight wins.

See here's my hing...there's good, and then there's enjoyability. I saw TDK one Saturday, and then Hellboy the next....and shoot me down, but I enjoyed Hellboy more. Is it a better movie? Oh hell no. Pun intended. And I am not saying that TDK is less than brilliant. I am talking about walking out of the theater going "Dan, that was cool" vs. walking out and going "Wow, that was grim".

I am talking about walking out of the theater going "Dan, that was cool" vs. walking out and going "Wow, that was grim".

Posted by: meh at August 1, 2008 5:28 PM

---------------------------------------

Having watched on my lap....err walking out of the theater, I really think this is more of a watch at home experience.

It's a little ...mmmm...exhausting.

If we are talking about the scariness of the character, the Joker needs to be seen in a different light then, say, Hannibal Lecter. Throughout the movie, it was seen several times that many of these people that were confronted by the Joker weren't really scared at all: Nolan showed that none of the mobsters intimidated by him, the random cop who watched him in the cell was convinced he could kick his ass. Even when the fake Batman was being videotaped by the Joker, he called him scum (or something like it) while being tied up. But the second the Joker growls "Look at me" from behind that camera -- it's scary because it unexpected. When the batbody hits the Mayor's window, it shocks you. When the Joker does his magic trick, its unexpected and if not entirely scary, then unsettling at the least. But that's what makes the Joker the Joker: he's a scrawny guy with makeup on his face, so he isn't exactly intimidating at first glance. Yet because of his erratic nature, he demands to be taken seriously. He'll crack a joke while gutting you. He can't be compared to another villain because there is no one like him, and he can't be defined as inherently scary because he isn't attempting to be. It's too unique a character to generalize or compare.

And Downey Jr. made Iron Man; if he wasn't in it, everyone would have had it in the same rankings as the Spiderman or X-Men sequels. Very good, but nothing to really write home about.

Posted by: aidan at August 1, 2008 5:58 PM

Of course we all realize the problem Ledger's demise has caused here. WHO? Who in the hell is gonna recreate a character that has defined Batman?

Know what I mean?

Liked the review very much. Can't decide which was better though. Apples and oranges I say. But what struck me more than Boyton's comparison was the milieu he established for TDK's success. The success of previous comic book films like Spider-Man and the reception of "The Lord of The Rings," All of these factors offer a keen insight to the glut of fantasy films that have come out for the past decade. Well done profound even.

Great read although I must disagree. I thought the Dark Knight was a better film and one I enjoyed more than Iron Man (eventhough I very much enjoyed Iron Man). RDJ was great but it's rather unfair to compare to the cast of TDK simply because one is an origin movie and the other is much more complex story. The origin movie places more weight on its main character/protagonist and so RDJ really carries the weight in Iron Movie. It might be more fair to watch Spiderman, Iron Man, and Batman Begins back to back and then compare. If you say RDJ is still better after that, fair enough then. Even watching the X-Men movies might not offer a fair comparison since those movies have a group of characters as the main protagonists although it can be argued that Wolverine is the main character. Comparing TDK and Iron Man may be comparing apples and oranges as someone else wrote earlier in the posts. Furthermore, the comparison become even more difficult when considering that those different superhero movies also carry their own themes besides their fight for justice (power and responsibility-spiderman, genetic discrimination (x-men), vengeance (batman), redemption and war-profiteering(ir

Without rambling on, I enjoyed TDK because it was more on an epic/grandeur scale. The complexity and plot-twists were a hell of a lot of fun. The action sequences satisfied the summer blockbuster palate. The entire cast was great and of course we get villains that were absolutely memorable, moreso the Joker. The ending furthered the story of batman and his perpetual rippling effect he has had on Gotham City. Iron Man's ending was a sort of anti-climax. RDJ was the most memorable thing in Iron Man, even as good as the other elements of the movie turned out to be. It should be noted that TDK was able to accomplish its success due to its successful predecessor (Batman Begins). It had already established the premise, mood, and storyline for which TDK could expand on. Batman Begins set'em up. TDK knocked em down.

Nevertheless, both were great movies. That pleases me as a fan of both film and comic-books.

Oops, did not proofread my previous post. My apologies for any unfinished sentences/grammatical errors.

oh yeah, before I forget - Iron Man is gay!

I'm going with the rapping pimp.
Why did I read raping? And then think of Pandas? You've corrupted me Pajiba.

This was great Ted, very well written and while you made your opinion known, I didn't want to punch you in the crotch. I am going to have to agree with the Eckhart > Howard, even though it is hard out here for a pimp, when he's trying to get the money for his rent. And now that I think about it, I was rather underwhelmed upon viewing what I hoped would rock my socks. Don't get me wrong, I loved, nay, lurrrved TDK, but I left the theatre after Iron Man PUMPED. I wanted to get in some high speed car chases and clock some bitches after watching RDJ kick that much ass. However, as it's already been stated, he carried the flick. And although Gwen outdid Maggie, I think that the Rachel Dawes character just sucks in comparison to the charming and important Pepper Potts (in retrospect though, Maggie kicked KateBot's ASSSSSSSSSS). EVERYONE in TDK was phenomenal in my opinion, while RDJ and Gwen really shined as the headliners in Iron Man.

So I hear ya sir, I hear ya. I just wish I had to guts and tolerance to knock back two bottles of wine in six hours, without glasses, in a movie theatre. Bravo.

I have to pick Iron Man. Its more grounded in reality and has a sense of immediacy that TDK lacks. Robert Downey has that gravitas and a biting sense of humor that Bale is also missing. Bale is always serious in everything he does and it mirrors his real life too which starts to scare people away and women turned off by him. I even find Maguire's Peter Parker so adorkable than Bale.I came out of Iron Man proud to be an American and so inspired unlike TDK I feel real tired. Liv tyler and Katie Holmes are not just easy on the eyes but were better actresses than Maggie and Gwen. Paltrow and Gyllenhaal are butt ugly. NY Times has an interesting new article"
How many superheroes does it take to tire a genre?

I agree that Ironman was a much better movie than TDK, but I thought that it was Bale that was flat, not Ledger. I really enjoyed Ledger's performance, possibly helped by the fact that he was the only character in the movie i could identify with.
That said, RDJ could blow him right out of the water without even trying, so overall Ironman was easily one of the best movies I've ever seen (I'll routinely turn a movie off if it lacks sufficient comic relief. Enough dark shit happens in the real world, I want my movies to be fun).

My boyfriend and I had this same debate the other night. He's in the TDK camp; I preferred Iron Man.

However, we ended up deciding that comparing the two films is like comparing Macintosh apples to the Granny Smith variety: very similar in appearance (movies about superheroes struggling to figure out how to deal with their respective situations) but ultimately extremely different in taste (more comedy vs. more drama; gratuitous shots of a former drug addict in a wifebeater vs. gratuitous shots of a mom-and-sister-beater in his Batsuit).

IRON MAN SUPERIOR! TDK inferior!

Even fanboys laugh off the grunting voice by Bale
as Batman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2yv8aT0UFc

Batman has an actress that cant act and battling the Joker for the creepy trophy. This video made Maggie cry and Batman does not deserve a woman that doesn't shave her underarms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBMNChtXV_s

Just popping back in to add my two cents...(or, five cents since I'm in Australia)

Chigurh is way creepier than the Joker. Simple as that. The Joker is someone interesting, and someone who does have motivation, despite this whole "Ahh! He doesn't have any motivation! What do we do?". His motivation is entertainment and anarchy. He kills and destroys things because it's fun. If you're put in a room with him, he's not going to kill you right away because you could be entertaining. Batman is his big nemesis, but he never wanted to kill him. There's a twisted element of humanity, because being entertained is a normal desire, in the Joker, one that allows us to understand him (to a point).

But Chigurh? Excuse me, but daaaamn if that ain't the creepiest man you'll ever see. He looks normal (as in, no weird disfigurements or makeup or whatnot), but his brain is so completely devoid of humanity. He kills people because they're inconvenient to him. He kills people because they don't matter to him. There's no negotiating with someone like that, you can't use any sort of reason with him. With the Joker at least you can provide some form of entertainment, but Chigurh...there's absolutely nothing about him that resembles humanity. No greed, no humour, no pain, no regret, only the single-minded focus to getting the job done according to his system: if you inconvenience him, you die. He doesn't kill because he enjoys it, he just kills. People just don't matter to him.

And twig! What are you doing, linking stuff to people! What happended to Using The Google??

I'd also like to comment on the fact that my thinking Chigurh is way creepier has nothing to do with the face that I found the Joker strangely attractive. No, not affected at all.

...Is it disrespectful to say that I really wanted to see him with some whacky love interest?

I feel so very confused, and yet, strangely aroused.

Heath Ledger made more than three good films. What about Candy, Two Hands, I'm Not There and Ned Kelly. I suppose American audiences haven't heard much about 3 of those films, but they're certainly worth a look, and Ledger is fantastic in all of them. Not 'second coming of Brando, Best Actor EVER!!!!' fantastic, but still fucking good.

Valid points indeed...but there is just so much more I feel towards "Dark Knight".

Without a doubt, I truly was amazed by "Iron Man", because I didn't think it was going to be done justice as it did. I was a bit skeptical, and I felt so bad about myself for feeling that way after viewing it. That movie was THEE (haha) movie to start off summer's blockbusters. ("Wall-E" was kinda that middle one, but all the same, to me at least, epic. I fuckin' love Pixar...oh, sorry for digressing for that moment.)

"TDK", however, has such a deeper meaning, especially in that ending. For the most part, superhero movies have that usual trend of everything being 'oh-bee-kay-bee' in the end. Evil is punished, the Good are triumphant. "TDK" gave us that different, beautiful ending where it makes you think. It is one of the most (if not the most) realistic endings I have ever seen depicted in a comic-book film. The end to Iron Man was great, and it made you feel good...whereas Batman makes you think just how tragic it all is, just how big of a sacrifice Batman makes.

Moreover, the supporting cast of "TDK" was beyond everything. The Joker is so much more terrifying than any villain expressed within the last couple of years (speaking for myself on that one...), and I really believe that, come the next villain of villains...he will have to be compared to the Joker so that he may be found out just how much of a villain he really is.

Again, I truly enjoyed this...but "TDK", to me, was more than hype it expressed. That movie is the holy grail of comic book movies. From the character depictions to the story therefore told...simply mind-blowing.

Ah, holy hell, yes! Cookie is very right about Chigurh...I forgot about that whole comment diversion.

I know this isn't related, but what exactly is Daniel Plainview from "There Will Be Blood"? Is he a hero, anti-hero, villain...I kinda get lost when I think about it too much. Nevertheless, Plainview was also very disturbing to me. The ending to that movie especially rings that true. And the 'milkshake' speech. At first, it sounded ridiculous when he began that speech, but damn if it wasn't fuckin' well done.

Oh, dammit. Digressed again. Yes, Chigurh is fuckin' scary beyond Hannibal, the Joker...pretty much every villain I can think of off the top of my head.

Grover: Willamette Valley represent!! I'm from McMinnville and lived in Tualatin for a while before leaving the state for good in 1999. I swear, every time I go home there are ten new wineries that have sprung up in the area. My parents go on tasting tours every other week, swear to god.

Boozehound, I loved reading this piece, but in my heart of hearts I must admit that I disagree with you. The Dark Knight was a whole package of awesome (performances, cinematography, writing, pacing, costumes, music...all perfect), while Iron Man wasn't much more than a few good jokes, a great performance by RDJ and some very cool effects. I enjoyed Iron Man a lot, but I just don't think it's on par with The Dark Knight.

Which isn't just a matter of acting quality but of immersion.

Agreed, CaptainOrchid. I was stoked about RDJ's performance as Tony Stark, but I was repeatedly taken out of the film by distracting little bits here and there (some of the supporting cast were really bad at times - I'm looking at you, Paltrow). I sat through all nineteen hours of The Dark Knight with a dazed smile on my face, completely forgetting about the woman with several young, screaming children seated in my row. And yes, Ledger was uterrly magnetic in TDK. The guy changed the game for comic villains, and I for one am excited to see the effect his work will have on future comic adaptations.

I fuckin' love Pixar...oh, sorry for digressing for that moment.

No apologies necessary, Riley! I too am a Pixar whore. There should be a support group.

At the risk of damning Pajiba with feint praise (see what I did there?), this is periodical-calibre writing.

Iron Man is popcorn fluff with RDJ playing himself - charismatic though he be. TDK is a rich, textured crime film featuring a vigilante in black armour.

Pinot noir is the fucking shit, but I do not, as yet, appreciate chardonnay.

Bravo! Tremendous article whether or not one agrees with your assessment. The more important point: comedy undervalued & tragedy overvalued critically. That notion I could not agree with more, and is one of the reasons I can't stand the majority of film critics. Thank you for being one of the exceptions Mr. Boynton.

...Is it disrespectful to say that I really wanted to see him with some whacky love interest?

Not at all, Cookie. You might want to check out a character named Harley Quinn. I believe she will slake your thirst.

I know I'm late to the party, but Ledgers's performance, and this has fuck all to do with the fact he died, is one of the best screen villians ever. Are Hopkins & Oldman's performances scarier? Yes, but you overlook the fact that both Silence of the Lambs and the Professional are R rated, which gives the actor a lot more room to push the envelope. I guarantee that if TDK was R, the Joker would scare the shit out of you. He is the perfect bad guy for these times. I agree with you on almost all your other points. Hell,I'll even add one, the editing, which was much more fluid in Iron Man. But I can't agree about the Joker. TDK has many great elements, the cinematography, the action scenes, but the only time the movie is truly riveting is when Ledger is onscreen.

You are absolutuely correct Mateo...TDK really only shines when Ledger is on the screen. In my second viewing of TDK I actually napped a bit when he wasn't on the screen (admittedly it was a normal screen and not the IMAX of my first viewing...but still).

When it comes down to it Iron Man is the better movie; walking out, I was excitied to see it again. Soon. But with TDK, not so much, I wanted to see Ledger again but not the rest of it. Dent was cardboard and Batman had both the annoying voice and the oddest skinny lips that just look wrong in the mask. RDJ never annoys... he just pleases!

Well considered, Ted. I definitely agree with you on several points, especially concerning Ledger. I'll never argue about him being a great actor, but I've seen many performances that creeped me out more. He did a great job, but I wasn't totally blown away.

However, I think when push comes to shove, I have to side with TDK's claims to greatness over Iron Man's when I put them to the "thinking test," as I'll call it for sound bite's sake. Iron Man was a pleasure to watch from start to finish, left me hyped and happy and ready to drive my car way too fast on the ride home. However, it didn't really make me think a lot. TDK did. For hours after the film (and I saw it in IMAX too--definitely worth the extra dollars for the Watchmen trailer, I agree), I sat around digesting the content, reliving key scenes, ruminating on the themes and the craftsmanship and how the characters fit together. That's the one thing I see lacking in Iron Man, which in my mind lets TDK overtake it for overall quality. I definitely think I'd more willingly re-watch Iron Man than TDK, but not because it's a better film; I'd watch it for a mood-lifter, not to make me think.

Both movies were enjoyable, but neither would make it onto my list of top favorite movies of all time, or even close. Iron Man was fun but very predictable and forgettable, and I don't have any desire to watch it again. TDK was too long, and there wasn't enough Bale, but I would re-watch it.

Oh trust me, Vermillion, I know about Harley Quinn. But that's in the comic books. I wanted to see someone (*cough*Maggie Gyllenhaal*cough*) on screen with him...

Righto. Time to take my medicine.

I've seen both movies, only once each (for now), and I have to say that I can't, like some here, pick one film as reigning supreme over the other as I see them as such different types of films as to be non-comparable (like yet some others here also feel to be true.) I do agree that Ledger was phenomenal as the Joker, RDJ was phenomenal as IM, the Batvoice was overdone to the point of humor (see, there is some humor in TDK!), Pepper (the actress being not one of my usual favorites) took the girlfriend role award, and both had great action, effects, and story movement, among other things. However, I have a few problems with TDK that perhaps somebody here can address, even if it's just to tell me that I'm full of it, uninformed, and need another viewing to set myself straight. Here goes a few: In the scene where CB is stitching his own arm in the "batcave", he's speaking, the camera angle changes, and while his voice finishes the sentence his mouth isn't moving anymore. Bad camera work in a movie showing itself to be in so many other ways a great one bothers me, and that's just one example of this type of thing that I noticed. Also, while a certain suspension of reality needs to take place to accept some things, some sort of "logical" progression of events needs to be going on, and one scene in TDK where it wasn't there, for me, was the whole "man with the cellphone in body/Joker calls in/boom/now Joker has escaped" situation. When did the cellphone/bomb get in there? And then when and for what reason did the cell-bomb-man get in the cell? (Or were those events reversed, and then really, how'd it get in there?) And then where did the policeman held hostage during said cell call and his buddies, the standers-by police, go when said cellphone/bomb exploded? Joker was shown with making the call, boom, and then there are papers blowing about Joker....are we to believe that said police scattered like bunnies in the path of a mower when the bomb exploded, forgetting about the Joker in the midst in their haste to take cover? Also, I felt that something was missing with the whole "bad boat/good boat/shall we all go down together?" scenario. I was waiting for either a "good boat presses button, whoops, it's the good boat bomb" Joker joke, or when not that, at least a Joker "yeah, that wasn't the remote, here's the real one up my sleeve while I dangle here taunting you Mr. I Still Wear My Retainer and Also Have a Bad Cold Why Do You Ask? Batman. Those are just a few examples, whereas I really can't come up with many comparable examples from IM.

Wow. That was WAY too long. And I do know about paragraphs, really.

Iron Man feels like a real superhero movie while Batman feels like a typical Nolan psychological thriller he usually does like Memento,Prestige,you name it.

What about the Imax vs conventional comment?

Anton Chigurh was a force of nature. A man who aspired to be as random as a coin toss. Bad things had to happen, it was a part of him he must express...so why shouldn't they happen to you?

Daniel Plainview was a man gone wrong. Driven, determined, unstoppable at achieving his goals, even when he had long since lost the reason of those goals.

The Joker was a man with a point, that he was the new normal, the standard of behavior to which all humankind was devolving. Violence and destruction was to be wrought for the sake of violence and destruction. He knew it wasn't his time yet, but when there was nothing left but rats and cockroaches, you would know that it was because of people like The Joker, and that his kind would be all that was left to rule over chaos.

Which is more frightening? Although I did love the The Joker, he only works in context. The other two...I'm sure people like that walk among us.

You must have amazing bladder control! I'd be in the ladies' room every 10 minutes.

Im going for Iron Man because its a family outing and it was a fun movie going experience. I go to the movie to forget my problems unlike the depressing Dark Knight. Robert Downey is a more lively colorful actor than Bale the scrooge.

Let's face it, DK wasn't a Batman movie. It was a Joker movie. Nothing wrong with that, but it's why the film failed to blow me away the way it has so many. If Batman and the Joker are to face off, they need to be equally matched.

I just didn't feel that Batmn as written in DK was as, pardon the phrase, bat-shit crazy as the Joker. There's a lot of talk of how nuts Batman is, but not a lot of showing how crazy he is.

I did think Ledger was chilling and brilliant in his portrayal -- and given the hype, I didn't think it would be possible for him to be that great. But he was so astonishingly wonderful. It almost felt as if he was in a different film.

TED- YOU ARE MY HERO.

may i also add that i thought Cillian Murphy's Scarecrow was MUCH scarier than the beloved Joker.

They're both fundamentally conservative movies, but if one HAS to be deemed "more" left -wing or "liberal", it would be Iron Man. Surprise!!!! Thats the one (most of) you like more.

Shocka.

Really. I'm shocked. Dumbfounded, even.

Scarecrow was scary, brutal, sociopathic and worthy, but he just didnt occupy the same plane of existence as the Joker. He just didnt. No slight against the actor, or the character, but its like putting trying to put (sports metaphor alert) Jim Braddock on the same plane as Cassius.

He's pretty, but he aint THAT pretty...

I feel a little bit as if we're that sociology experiment where they get two people as similar as possible and try to make them fight.

The movies are both grand examples not only of fun movies but of how far the comic book movie can come. Not for all, naturally: there's still lots of bad comic movies, just like there'll always be good and bad romantic comedies. But the danger is to think that all comic movies should be judged by the same criteria. There are genres of comics, as there are genres in literature.

That being said: I disagree with what you've written. I think Iron Man was great and very fun, but the absolute heart and center of it was Robert Downey Jr., who is a fantastic actor. The Dark Knight, by contrast, was a wonderful ensemble piece where every actor did a great job, and thus elevated the whole.

Put another way, if you pull out Gyllenhall, or Freeman, or Caine, or even Bale, Ledger, Oldman or Eckhart, you have a lesser movie, but still a great one. Pull Downey out of Iron Man and you have no movie at all.

And, I appreciate the villains of the past as much as anyone, but I think that list of Lecter, Batty, etc., wouldn't be compromised by adding to it; and Ledger's Joker is definitely worhty of a spot on that roster.

Thanks, Boozehound, for that bit of reality.

The Joker was not that scary. The lip smacking was schticky. He talked too much. And Oldman's performance was waaaay better (except for that whole "I have to save Harvey!" line, which just made me laugh.)

TDK's effects were better, but neither movie was life altering.

My favorite part from either movie? The technical drawings overlaying the credits of Iron Man. That shit was truly beautiful.

C'mon dude, just admit to yourself that you can't bear to like something when it's become popular. You have to be contrarian because it bugs you to have to agree with the rest of the masses.

Ironman is a slightly-better-than-mediocre comic book movie with a great lead, an ok script, some neat special effects, and some fun scenes. It almost even starts to say something meaningful about war and the American military industrial complex before backing off and immediately retreating into the safe and predictable comic book ending with a good guy beating up a bad guy which makes everything OK and saves the day (for Marvel to continue to crank out additional sequals and spin-offs.)

TDK is a superior film in every way in terms of script, dialogue, cinematography, pacing, cast, action, excitement, scope, stunts, chemistry, performance, depth, etc., etc. On top of it all, Nolan has the balls to play it risky by making his superhero a morally ambiguous anti-hero and not feeding us another Hollywood smiley, happy, feel-good, bullshit ending.

TDK more than exceeded my high expectations. The director, cast, crew, etc. deserve every single bit of praise they're getting, and I'm thrilled to see a worthy film receive the kind of overwhelming success it deserves.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and other than your facile, shallow first paragraph, not a bad comment. Before going off on the writer for some kind of hipster anti-popularity agenda, however, you might consider that Iron Man was the top-reviewed and most popular film of the year until TDK came along. Are you really accusing me of backing the second-most-popular film of the year in order to avoid "agreeing with the masses"? 'Cause, dude, that's a good way to look fucking stupid. Not to mention the favorable coverage in prior columns of such obscure, unpopular titles as There Will Be Blood, Juno, Aliens, and 3:10 to Yuma. I guess I just despise popular movies.

Christ, I hope you were drunk when you wrote that. tb

"Are you really accusing me of backing the second-most-popular film of the year in order to avoid 'agreeing with the masses'? 'Cause, dude, that's a good way to look plain stupid. tb"

Lol! Well, Mr. Boozehound Cinephile, I honestly was not aware that Iron Man held the position of top reviewed and most popular film of the year until TDK came along. (Iron Man was considered the best we've had all year? Really? Iron Man?) But, that said, yes I was indeed accusing you of having a hipster, anti-popularity reaction. And if that were really the case, it's not like I wouldn't sympathize.

The general public is split between those with bad taste and those with no taste whatsoever. These are people who are just as happy with a film like A Beautiful Mind as they are with a film like The Departed. People you meet everywhere who will tell you the The Shawshank Redemption represents the pinnacle of filmmaking and mean it. Given all that, it's difficult for anyone who actually cares about good cinema not to become instinctively suspicious of any movie with the kind of universal acclaim and hype that TDK is getting.

You're entitled to your opinion as well, but regardless of whether you think that TDK isn't all that, I think it's a damn fine movie by a dedicated writer/director team and cast that actually care about their craft. I could live with the product of that kind of approach and attitude getting overpraised and earning zillions of box office dollar. It's probably the only way quality might come back into style in Hollywood.

Thanks, DW; your last paragraph re-states with precision my position on TDK, which I saw at the theater twice -- something I almost never do. As stated in the column above:

Without doubt, TDK is an excellent film. Well-acted and well-shot, it features some of the finest actors of several generations doing serious honor to a true icon of Western lore. The special effects are creative and realistic -- except for the chopper/tripwire stunt, which looked terrible -- and the dialogue is well-written and smooth, if a bit on-the-nose desperate. TDK is a greatly entertaining action flick and a significant film in continuing to elevate graphic novels to their rightful place as literature and a legitimate source of cultural commentary. My overall opinion of the film did not change, however; it's very good, not great.

I'll have a steady stream of very good, TDK-level films, please. tb

Thank god!! I went to see the dark knight and after all the buzz I was expecting to see one of the greatest movies of all time. But, me and my gf both left the theater silently, and after I bit she said "It was just kinda so-so wasn't it?" and it was, granted heath ledger did do amazing, but I remember thinking that iron man was a way better movie, I am glad others feel the same...

I have to completely disagree with KatSings... I was totally aware that Heath Ledger was acting. Maybe it was all of the discussion on his performance that I had heard before seeing the movie, but honestly, I kept thinking "Oh there is Heath Ledger, acting like the Joker, but it's obviously Heath Ledger." Same way that I thought that about Morgan Freeman... "There's Morgan Freeman helping out Batman! Morgan Freeman is such a nice guy." At least RDJ was REALLY Tony Stark, and Christian Bale really was Bruce Wayne.

I like the way you went about assessing the movies (with stronger exception to the Howard vs Eckhart part) but I feel your allowing biases, (we share) about how audiences view movies is clouding your judgement.

As others have said Batman is far more layered than Ironman. Ironman was a character study while TDK was a movie that reached far loftier and varied goals that resonated with a lot of people.

Before TDK I never could pick a movie as the greatest of all time and essentially always look as movies of different genres as incomparable so I had multiple number 1 movies of all time based on genre.

After TDK my belief on the seperation on genres still remains but I can emphatically say that TDK was the best movie ever for me regardless of genre.

It achieved this status because it was engaging through almost its entirety. The level at which this movie gripped me emotionally and intellectually has been far better than any other movie prior and it deserves tat spot even if TDK has some serious flaws when you really examine how its plot unfolds.

This ability to hold your attention is why I think lighthearted movies like Ironman have such a harder time of gaining praise as Oscar contenders. Bleak movies like TDK don't let up in their intesity and maintain their momentum throughout.

Any movie that mixes in joy and wonder with pain and suffering is going to have to work much harder in making both of these countering systems resonate with the audience.

So don't feel too bad that dark movies gain more credit at awards because they are dark. They are taking the easier route by being more consistent in the way they engage us emotionally and intellectually. But I also think you need to take a step back and see the joy and wonder in movies you claim to be dark but are actually a wonderful mix of the dualisms.

LOTR you accused of being light on levity but it was also breathtaking in inspiring awe and joy when you could see the beauty of Middle earth and good triumphing over evil, or atleast being very brave in the face of evil.

I'm still scratching my head over the praise for Iron Man...it was good, and had fine actors (though you can't be serious that Terrence Howard--whose character didn't appear to have any real purpose--was anywhere near a match for Aaron Eckhart), but the plot was disappointingly flat, totally lacking in tension or climax.

And Blade Runner? Overrated.

How hilarious is it that Ted Boynton gets all bent out of shape when he gets called a hipster contrarian? Sorry to tell you Teddy but DW hit it square on the head, and you simply reinforced it with your blatant overreaction. You didn't like Batman (and lets just call it Batman people, what the fuck is up with TDK?) because too many of your friends liked it and you have always been too cool for mainstream flicks like this one. So you rebel against it and try to pretend that you didn't just get your mind blown, because something as accessible to the masses couldn't possibly have caused you to feel such unbridled happiness. But the truth is you loved it, every se