Pajiba

Sorry, but I don't feel that the words:

"You don't like the sound of the truth coming from my mouth..."

and

"We're on the good side with y'all... We don't want this violence...Just so you know, we're ashamed that the President of the United States is from Texas."

necessarily correlate into:

"...her battle cry in a fight she never wanted."

To let some country lovin' southerner somewhere put it best:

"Thems fightin' words."

Plain and simple.

And therein lies the problem, Some Guy - those shouldn't BE fighting words. Goddamnit, you should have the right to disagree with the president and not have it turn into a nightmare of death threats, sponsorship withdrawals, tour cancellations and people showing pictures of you with Saddam Hussein. It's just insane, and sickening. Who cares if you're for the war or against it, for the last time, for all of you in the back, you can protest the war, and the president, and still be a perfectly good American.

Born and raised in Wichita Falls, Texas, counry music has always been a big part of my life. Sure, I rebelled as a kid and embraced the Beatles, Stones and all that followed but there has always been a soft spot in my heart for country artists who were true to their roots and stood by their beliefs. When Natalie Maines made the infamous remark about the 'presidunce', I applauded and felt proud of a fellow Texan who wasn't afraid to say out loud what many of us were thinking... and ashamed of the knee-jerk reactionaries and trend-whores such as Toby Keith for making country music fans seem like redneck jingo slingers.
I hope that this movie is a huge success and that even those who don't care much for country music will see it and realize that being from the south doesn't mean that you blindly support an administration with badly failed policies simply because they wrap themselves in red, white and blue.

and in my opinion the people who refuse to buy cds and boycott music and those sponsers who withdraw are doing the exact same thing that she was: excercising their freedom of expression.

death threats are of course the exception, but for someone to basically survive by catering to a market composed primarily of hot-blooded southerners who aren't afraid to speak their mind by getting all of their friends to refuse the purchase of their album, the comment was a stupid one. Completely justified in her opinion, sure, it is her right by every means, but you reap what you sow. She pissed off a lot of her fans.

Not everyone who supports the war does so because they want the mideast's oil. Believe it or not, some people do feel that the war was and is justified because the people in iraq deserve what freedoms our government provides us.

IMO, it's not so much the comment about being ashamed about bush being from texas that bothers me, but that says she's "on the good side, with ya'll," while talking to a bunch of anti-war types, and she clearly but indirectly states that those who support the war are on the "bad" side.

She basically went ahead and did what so many conservatives do to draw the ire of the liberal crowd by labeling "good" and "bad." I thought in this day and age there was no good and bad. There are no bad terrorists, there are no bad suicide bombers, they are all merely misunderstood and driven to their actions by inept policy, right?

Again, just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean that you should, and it doensn't mean that those who you offend have to sit by and take it on the chin just because those who said it are entertainers and make more money than 99 percent of people who listen to them.

It's no different than Streisand and her bush impersonator at her concerts. People pay her to sing, not to preach her ideology. You can only do it so much before someone throws a cup of ice in your face and asks for a refund.

Natalie can still have her opinions and express them all she wants, but when she stops the singing to do so, she just needs to shut up. To put it lightly.

This makes no sense. How can she express her opinions "all she wants", yet "needs to shut up"?

Five days later (3/18/03), at the Shepherd's Bush Empire, Vicki Peterson of the Bangles said "Goddamnit, war is not the answer". Where was Toby Keith then?

No one is saying that people have to buy Dixie Chick CDs or go to their shows. What seems to be getting Natalie whipped up was that corporate radio conspired, and that is the word "conspired", to destroy their careers. Not some rube sitting on his front porch with a hound dog and a shotgun, but people in the radio business conspiring to destroy their career because they thought it would play better on country radio.

Yet, in spite of this, after 15 weeks on the charts, their new CD had sold 1,576,643
units. About twice what Toby Keith's new CD did. So talent wins out, at least in this case.

This movie FINALLY opened around here and I will go see it ASAP.

who the hell are the bangles, and who the hell still listens to their music?

and she can both shut up and have her opinion. She can talk about her opinion when she isn't preforming for paying fans who aren't there to listen to politics, and she can talk all she wants in forums speciffically designed to allow people to share their opinions.

A stage at a concert is not one of them.

Not too hard. If she had said that on Larry King or real time with bill maher, I seriously doubt that people would have cared as much.

on a side note, anyone see michael richards tirade at a comedy club? Pretty heavy shit there...

So if Natalie Maines should both "shut up and have her opinions" can Toby Keith get a boot up his own proverbial ass courtesy of the red white and specifically blue states?

The first time I saw the preview for this film, I got so excited. I have always loved the Dixie Chicks, and I think their most recent album is the best yet. A couple people in the audience booed, which really surprised me because I live in a blue county in a blue state. Not only that, but it surprised me that three years later people are still angry with them. In three years people couldn't come to the realization that everyone has a right to say what they feel, whether or not they are famous, whether or not they are in what Some guy would a call the proper forum, and whether or not their core fan base agrees with it. The obvious difference between what Natalie Maines did and what Barbara Streisand is doing at her concerts is that Natalie was playing off the audience and said something off the cuff, while Barbara has it scripted and doesn't care what the audience thinks of it. Comparing the two doesn't make sense to me.
"You don't like the sound of the truth coming from my mouth" is a good battle cry because it's fairly concise. But every time I listen to her sing, "How in the world can the words that I said send somebody so over the edge that they'd write me a letter saying that I better shut up and sing or my life will be over?" I can feel her hurt and her anger and possibly her disgust. Of course, that might be my own disgust projected onto her.
Some guy, you remind me of the old man in the preview for this film who says, "Everyone has the right to freedom of speech. You just can't do it in public." Is it truly a freedom if it is only allowed in certain times and places?

I don't really care for country music, but I am actually really looking forward to seeing this movie.

Some guy ... lots of other people are answering you with enormous coherence so I'm not sure I really need to chip in. The fact is, however, that the vast majority of people in the audience thought that the stage was exactly the right place for Maines' off-the-cuff political remark. That's why she got cheered. And it's simply crazy that a spur-of-the-moment comment (though to be fair one she has had the courage to stand behind ever since) in a venue halfway around the world which holds no more than 2000 people, could spark such a violent and virulent reaction in the States. And to repeat what other commenters have said - sure, everyone should have the right to disagree with Mears' political sentiments; everyone has the right not to purchase their records. But death threats, harassment, and a co-ordinated (though ultimately unsuccessful) campaign to destroy their careers is a whole other kettle of redneck fish. I believe the nature of 'ad hominem' arguments has come up in another comments section. Please bear in mind the difference between disagreeing with someone's opinions and attacking the person who speaks.

For me the biggest tragedy was that the whole "Natalie Maines is ashamed of the president" debacle was that it overshadowed "Home", one of the greatest albums to come out that year. from "More Love"...

Just look out around us
People fightin' their wars
They think they'll be happy
When they've settled their scores
Let's lay down our weapons
That hold us apart
Be still for just a minute
Try to open our hearts

More love, I can hear our hearts cryin'
More love, I know that's all we need
More love, to flow in between us
To take us and hold us and lift us above
If there's ever an answer
It's more love

I don't see what the big deal is. She made public comments and people responded publicly. Isn't this what is supposed to happen? Sometimes people are jerks and can't handle actual debate, but that transcends any ideological lines. I think we'd all do well to remember that smart people with good intentions fall on both sides of any debate.

My girlfriends loves the Dixie Chicks so I'll probably see this no matter what. I'm glad it sounds like it will be pretty interesting.

This may have already been mentioned, but I remember one of the biggest issues with her statement being not so much WHAT she said as WHERE she said it. -- It gave impression that they were two-faced, talking one way in the US and another way overseas. I think that's where a lot of their fans' sense of betrayal came from.

Some Guy's comments remind me of something I read somewhere about how no entertainer should ever air a political belief... unless they're Arnold Schwartzenegger (I know it's misspelled, too sick to care), Toby Keith, Dixie Carter, etc., etc. All those folks can get up on their soap boxes, and that's just fine. It's only when liberal entertainers dare say anything that anyone gets indignant. Double standards much, conservatives? Why am I surprised?

I hadn't seen that Free Republic website before. It made me sick. How are people that stupid, seriously? I can't imagine not being able to understand truths, especially when all you have to do is spend a little time researching. There's a fucking illustrated version of the 9/11 commission report now for God's sake. I will never be able to understand why people choose to be ignorant, or how they can possibly be proud of that fact, or call it "patriotic".

I know I'm risking stirring up a Wicker Man style comment thread, but I'm honestly interested to know how much of the virulence of the response against the Chicks was because they are three women. Trent from pinkisthenewblog.com (of all places) brought to my attention (I haven't seen the film) that a lot of the criticism of the Chicks was sexist in nature, calling them "sluts" and the like. My theory is that here are three rather pretty women who dared to have a strong opinion, and, much like the venom spewed about Hillary Clinton, the idea of a woman holding strong opinions offends some people of a certain nature. Remember, this is the time when Britney Spears, when asked her opinion of the war, batted her pretty eyelashes and said we should just trust our president. And in Natalie Maines, we have another pretty blonde who is daring to hold a firm belief.

It just seems that the punishment doesn't at all fit the crime in this case.

Theresa--I can't help but think of sand and vaginas any time I see the title "Wicker Man".

I have thought the same thing as well...it's one thing to call a female "stupid" or "uninformed" regarding politics (or anything, for that matter), but, really, she's a "slut" because of her comment? Yeeeaaaaah.

I hadn't planned on mentioning this but this story and the comments in this thread demand it. From 1998 until 2005 I worked for Cumulus Broadcasting, second only to Clear Channel in number of radio stations owned across the United States, and yes, they did conspire to pull the Dixie Chicks music off of the air. A memo was sent to all of the Cumulus-owned country stations to immediately stop playing their music; to speak out against the group and in the city where I was employed (Abilene, Texas) the program director for our country station, KBCY, encouraged listeners to gather and BURN Dixie Chick cd's and merchandise. I was PD for the classic rock station and when I confronted the country PD about his actions he replied with "Hey, dude, I know a good bandwagon when I see one".

So, yeah, the Dixie Chicks have an absolute right to be pissed about how they were treated by the radio industry; idiot disc jockeys helped turn a minor incident into a major firestorm and it had nothing to do with anyone's freedom of speech as much as it had to do with grandstanding by so-called radio professionals.

Oh, and here's a secret: Most country music disc jockeys don't really care for country music and most wrap themselves in red, white and blue because their job requires it. To hear the same people who privately criticized the president and opposed the war then go on the air and defame the Dixie Chicks are not just hypocrites... they are propagandists.

"To hear the same people who privately criticized the president and opposed the war then go on the air and defame the Dixie Chicks made me see them as not just hypocrites... but as the propagandists they truly are."

Which is what I meant to write... sorry.

"I'm honestly interested to know how much of the virulence of the response against the Chicks was because they are three women."

Ding, ding, ding, ding. Theresa, I was thinking the same exact thing.

One other thing - when did country music become the voice of conformity in the United States? Am I correct in thinking that it has some pretty heavy anti-establishment roots? I don't consider "country music" a monolith by any means (I don't, for example, put Toby Keith and Allison Krauss in the same category), but the outcry from the country music establishment was pretty shocking to me.

Thanks, Spender, for confirming what a lot of us have thought all along. And, yes, I do believe a lot of the backlash was sexist in nature. People got pissed off about things Sean Penn said about the war, but is he a SLUT because of it? No, and all that flap has died down. I am involved in community theatre in my (unfortunately) very Red county in a very Red state. We were doing a "salute to veterans" musicale, and wanted to use "Travelin' Soldier." You would not believe how many people threw a fit...after all these years, these redneck morons are still wound up about it. But, when some of us didn't want to do "Have You Forgotten?" because of its pro-war lyrics, we were the bad guys. Whatever, we all have our own opinions, and isn't it one of our basic American rights to express them????

Theresa, it stuns me that I didn't draw that conclusion earlier, and I think you've hit it squarely on the head... I think that if it was a Toby Keith or some other country act that said the exact same thing, the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as severe. But a WOMAN? Someone who is supposed to be nice and sweet and sing pretty songs, well that's just wrong.

Dammit, I'm getting all pissed about this all over again. And I don't even *like* the Dixie Chicks. If it weren't for my wife, I wouldn't even know what they sound like.

This bit about saying it in England (or on "Foreign Soil" as Toby Keith and others foam at the mouth over) is a red herring. Natalie Maines has said, repeatedly, that she said it in England because "they were in England" at the outset of the war.

She has also said, repeatedly, that should would have said the exact same thing had she been in Texas on that date.

So that argument doesn't wash, except for people who cannot understand context.

The audience at the show certainly cheered the comment, so to say that the paying audience didn't want to hear political commentary is not quite true. They were quite pleased with Natalie's comment.

And I think the movie shows that they are concerned about losing audiences, but not at the expense of what they consider to be their rights at Americans, to say what they want. Since when did the Bill Of Rights stop applying to citizens at the border?

On a complete side note, Some Guy:

"You don't like the sound of the truth comin' from my mouth" is the first line of "Truth No. 2," off of "Home," which came out before the war. So I really don't see how that qualifies as "fightin' words." I'm just saying.

All right, go back to fighting. But in my opinion: "Taking the Long Way" is one of the best albums of the year. And that's really what I care about right now.

Isn't "shut up and sing" an oxymoron? Aren't songs merely opinions put to music? Are political statements okay if they're set to pretty melodies, or do contentious lyrics need to be changed to "meep moop nana sha la bing"? I wonder how Phil Ochs would fare today.

What people always fail to realize is that artists, like every other human being in existence, have opinions. Some of them are expressed while others are put on the back-burner. Some tow the line while still others rebel. I disagree with the notion that "people paid to see a concert and not to listen to politicizing". You paid for a space of time spent with an ARTIST. They might dress a little differently when they hop on stage, but I can guarantee you they are having the same thoughts as when they were backstage five minutes ago.

Think of Ms. Maines' offending statement as a manifesto. A public declaration of a personal, artistic vision. Once it was said, you are no longer allowed to be shocked, insulted, or otherwise surprised to find that the same opinion will be expressed when they drop into your town for a show, ya bloody sheep.

Baaa! Baaa!

I'm not a big country music fan myself, and I remember hearing this story but not paying much attention to it. After reading this review I'm somewhat shocked. I had no idea the situation had gotten so blown out of proportion. With that in mind, I will see this movie as soon as I can.

I agree with a lot of people here about how it's completely stupid that this kind of backlash occured because of what someone said.

And I think it's really cool that Daniel likes Ryan Adams (Cold Roses is the best album ever!).

Also, fuck Tobey Keith. I used to work at a big chain store and in the electronics part of the store we would play CMT everyday so I became familiar with his, and many other chauvinistic douchebags, form of country. I hate how modern country's all about, to quote a song I believe was sung by Tobey Keith, "getting drunk and being somebody." It's got even less substance than mainstream hip-hop.

Well, I was planning to come here and express all of the "profound, deep things going on in my head". Didn't have a chance to visit the site during work, so I missed the chance to be self-congratulatory and smug. Damn you, Theresa, Samantha T, TK (aka Edelweiss), Lizzie, em, et. al and your....intelligent articulation and circumspection! Damn you all!

I believe that it was Dr. King, after the assassination of Malcolm X, who lamented that he found it regrettable that some people could not manage to disagree without becoming violently disagreeable. (I won't pretend to have the exact quote.) Anyway, it seems to me that the hyperbolic language and literally incendiary demonstrations against The Dixie Chicks were not the best way to demonstrate to the world that our brand of freedom is really anything they should be looking forward to, in my humble opinion.

I'm not a country music fan, though I've liked some Dixie Chicks performances I've seen on awards shows. I did, however, make a point of downloading "Not Ready To Make Nice," which is a powerful song and a powerful statement from three women who were shown the worst of American discourse by people who claim to represent the best of what America is.

There are already many wonderful comments, so I'll just say that not only is Maines very pretty and extremely talented, but she gets to go home to sexy Adrian Pasdar at night.

She must have been extraordinarily good in her past life, because...damn!

Guys, this is an issue of audience.

This band sorely underestimated the convictions and beliefs of their audience.

Their statements aren't a matter of free speech or conviction but of understanding who buys your tickets.

A person that plays at Bonaroo that utters disparaging remarks about pot and Bill Clinton would get a similar backlash.

It reminds me of Stewie's flash back of how he bombed at Woodstock by singing about The Establishment.

I will being seeing this as soon as I can get my hands on it. It is inconceivable the amount of things that the Dixie Chicks had to go through because of a few "fighting words." Add on the fact that they are women and as many others have said (and quite eloquently, I might add) the backlash is only intensified. There is a reason why penis and power are often used interchangeably with the male chauvinistic crowd.

dammitjanet:
You would not believe how many people threw a fit...after all these years, these redneck morons are still wound up about it. But, when some of us didn't want to do "Have You Forgotten?" because of its pro-war lyrics, we were the bad guys.

You're practicing a double-standard here. They shouldn't say that you're bad guys for wanting to do an anti-war song (in a pro-veteran musical), but what do you call them when they want to do a pro-war song? "Redneck morons."

In other words, you're calling them bad guys for expressing their opinions.

cosmicbob:
This bit about saying it in England (or on "Foreign Soil" as Toby Keith and others foam at the mouth over) is a red herring. ... So that argument doesn't wash, except for people who cannot understand context.

But the context is the whole problem. You don't say you're embarrassed to have known someone at that person's funeral; you don't joke about the bride's chastity at her wedding, and you don't tell a foreign audience that you're embarrassed about what American troops are doing at the same time that they're amassing along a foreign nation's border and about to risk their lives in the service of their country.

It's not that she can't say those things. She certainly can, and she certainly did. It's that the military comes primarily from the South, which is where most of country music's audience is located. The context of her comments were in bad taste, and that pissed off her primary audience.

And you can't blame the corporate sponsors for getting sheepish. They're not in it to promote Natalie's political views. They're in it to make money. And her comments ran the risk of losing them money. So naturally, they tried to distance themselves from it.

Nobody is saying that the death threats were justified. They weren't. Those people should be hunted down and jailed, or worse.

But let's not act like the audience's reaction is some kind of censorship. The government didn't take any action against any of the Dixie Chicks.

Not buying her CDs was just the audience's way of expressing their own opinion, and it was no less tasteless than Natalie's own expression of opinion.

Note -- I met Natalie Mains before she joined the Chicks. I thought she was an amazing person. I loved the fact that she was outspoken and had strong views. I still love that. I love their music. I just think this whole firestorm of controversy is not an example of free speech being surpressed, but free speech working the way it's supposed to. So I think the premise of the movie seems to be flawed.

I think that The Comish's argument has some merit, but is flawed as well. I think that the audience's reaction is much less the issue than the concerted corporate effort to destroy them. In this very thread that insincere and cynical reality has been confirmed. Surely, there has to be a way to disagree with Ms. Maines without essentially deciding that her career should end because she's not proud of George W. Bush or the decisions he makes. (By the way, given the polls and the recent election her greatest "crime" may have been being ahead of the curve.)

Bush blows. The Dixie Chicks blow. Country music blows. Who are these people who gave a shit about what the Dixie Chicks had to say? Who are these pea-brained people that cared enough to have "boycotts" and to write badly-spelled death threats? These people have forced me to endure media coverage of the damned Dixie Chicks by throwing the Dixie Chicks into the public eye beyond a public consisting of cowboys and fat ladies with big hair and American flag-print shirts. God almighty, those people are pointless wastes of space. May they burn in a hell filled with Dixie Chicks tunes. Amen.

Agreed, Orlando. As unfortunate as it is, the way the media presents an issue will have a huge effect on the public's opinions on something. Had the radio stations just let the whole thing blow over, who knows if this would have been such a big issue? Hell, magazines have managed to make LEGGINGS popular again. LEGGINGS.

Just look at celebrity blogging if you don't believe me! One minute people love [insert celebrity here] and the next minute they despise him/her because a blogger or two decides to take up a hate campaign. People are sheep and most of them will adopt whatever the popular opinion is on something.

RE blahblahblah at November 20, 2006 10:07 PMn "... Who are these people who gave a shit about what the Dixie Chicks had to say?"

Word... I have considerably more good will for the Dixie Chicks than George Bush, but I was sick of the whole thing after about a day. I'm always amused when people claim they don't care what celebrities say and then proceed to have a big, public group orgasm of hate over what a celebrity said. Either you care or you don't care, but if you don't care, you don't organize boycotts or issue death threats. Dumbasses. By all means, express your opinion, god forbid we don't hear all about it every time someone's offended. I guess the world would split in two if someone just let something go because in the long run, it's really not that important. I may or may not see the movie, but I really don't give two shits how the Dixie Chicks feel about anything. Sorry, girls, but the endless publicity over it just crushed the care right outta me.

It was this precise comment that made me investigate the band further. I am glad of it - it's not normally the sort of music I listen too, but I am a convert now.

"you don't tell a foreign audience that you're embarrassed about what American troops are doing at the same time that they're amassing along a foreign nation's border and about to risk their lives in the service of their country"

But that's not what she said, and I think that's the issue here. She said they were embarrassed to be from the same state as our half-wit President. I think lots of people support the troops - not necessarily the goal of being in Iraq/Afghanistan, but respect their incredible daily sacrifice - but still disagree mightily with President Bush's decision to be there.

My whole issue was the same issue I have with all celebritys who spout off their political views. They are just stating their opinions. They (generally) have no educational/professional background to justify what they say. This isn't to say that their opinions aren't valid-they are, but I think it's irresponsible of them to do so. People need to make their own opinions and believing something because Barbara Streisand does is just stupid. Now, there are a handful of athletes/actors/singers who have gone into politics. That is different. They have made a career change. If Natalie Maines wants to go into politics, more power to her, I just wish she'd keep her politcs to more appropriate venues.

I am also quite tired of hearing about how shocked and appauled they were at the backlash. This is not the first time the south has done something of this nature (see The Beatles-John Lennon and the "We're more popular that Jesus" remark") and it won't be the last. I'm not saying that death threats were justified. I'm not saying the corporate conspiracy was justified. I'm just saying that they should know their audience and act accordingly. Sure, they were in England, but in this age, information travels fast and plentifuly. It's going to get back to your fanbase. Sure, this record has sold a great deal so far. But I'd be willing to bet it's all because of the hype. Unless they can kick up another firestorm, their next will be the same as any other ho-hum album they've released. I'm just tired of them whining about something that was brought about by their actions. Nobody put the words in Natalie Maines's mouth.

I'm just appalled that anyone actually believes that our 'presidunce' is actually from Texas! He wasn't born in Texas and is nothing less than the typical "carpetbagger" who came into our beloved state with his sneer and his "fake cowboy" swagger and, with help from Karl "Turdblossom" Rove, stole an election from the late and much loved Ann Richards.
Just wanna set the record straight on that issue.

Comish, you are right, to a point. "Travelin' Soldier" is not a song with a political content, "Have You Forgotten" is. Maybe nobody was right in our little theatrical brou-ha-ha....just like in this whole bloody mess....

My whole issue was the same issue I have with all celebritys who spout off their political views. They are just stating their opinions. They (generally) have no educational/professional background to justify what they say. This isn't to say that their opinions aren't valid-they are, but I think it's irresponsible of them to do so. People need to make their own opinions and believing something because Barbara Streisand does is just stupid. Now, there are a handful of athletes/actors/singers who have gone into politics. That is different. They have made a career change. If Natalie Maines wants to go into politics, more power to her, I just wish she'd keep her politcs to more appropriate venues.

I am also quite tired of hearing about how shocked and appauled they were at the backlash. This is not the first time the south has done something of this nature (see The Beatles-John Lennon and the "We're more popular that Jesus" remark") and it won't be the last. I'm not saying that death threats were justified. I'm not saying the corporate conspiracy was justified. I'm just saying that they should know their audience and act accordingly. Sure, they were in England, but in this age, information travels fast and plentifuly. It's going to get back to your fanbase. Sure, this record has sold a great deal so far. But I'd be willing to bet it's all because of the hype. Unless they can kick up another firestorm, their next will be the same as any other ho-hum album they've released. I'm just tired of them whining about something that was brought about by their actions. Nobody put the words in Natalie Maines's mouth.

"She said they were embarrassed to be from the same state as our half-wit President. I think lots of people support the troops - not necessarily the goal of being in Iraq/Afghanistan, but respect their incredible daily sacrifice - but still disagree mightily with President Bush's decision to be there."

Amen, Samantha T. Do I respect my friends who are fighting in Iraq, making the sacrifice of being away from their family and friends? Hell yes. Do I wish they could get the hell out of there so they could keep being 23-year-olds? Fuck yes. You can admire and support someone for what they do, but still wish they didn't have to do it (even though they did enlist and essentially are there because they signed up for it).

But the context is the whole problem. You don't say you're embarrassed to have known someone at that person's funeral; you don't joke about the bride's chastity at her wedding, and you don't tell a foreign audience that you're embarrassed about what American troops are doing at the same time that they're amassing along a foreign nation's border and about to risk their lives in the service of their country.

But, since she didn't say any of these things. I still don't understand your argument. Expressing disappointment in the president has NOTHING to do with whether or not one supports the troops. Getting the two confused is what leads to these types of firestorms and is why our government has been so successful at getting people to conform to beliefs they don't truly hold.

"She said they were embarrassed to be from the same state as our half-wit President. I think lots of people support the troops - not necessarily the goal of being in Iraq/Afghanistan, but respect their incredible daily sacrifice - but still disagree mightily with President Bush's decision to be there."

Amen, Samantha T. Do I respect my friends who are fighting in Iraq, making the sacrifice of being away from their family and friends? Hell yes. Do I wish they could get the hell out of there so they could keep being 23-year-olds? Fuck yes. You can admire and support someone for what they do, but still wish they didn't have to do it (even though they did enlist and essentially are there because they signed up for it).

Based on the link from yeeeah, I was expecting a totally different kind of Dixie Chicks fallout. What a bummer. Coming from that website "fallout" is supposed to mean massive nip slip.

Guys, this is an issue of audience.
This band sorely underestimated the convictions and beliefs of their audience.
Their statements aren't a matter of free speech or conviction but of understanding who buys your tickets.

If that were the case then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Their audience- the people who bought the tickets to the show- agreed with her sentimets.

It was a DJ someone with no "educational/professional background to justify what they say" who created the stink that started the whole The Dixie Chicks are anti-American crusade.

The outrage over Natalie's comments had pretty much died down and most country fans were ready to move on. However, prior to their new album coming out, they decided to stir it all up again for the publicity. They did interviews saying that they would rather have a small base of fans that "get it" and don't want to be in the same cd collection as Toby Keith and Reba McEntire. They said they were not longer a country act and were moving in a new "direction". Fine, that is your career choice. But you can't make comments like that and then expect country music stations to promote your tour.

Sure, this record has sold a great deal so far. But I'd be willing to bet it's all because of the hype. Unless they can kick up another firestorm, their next will be the same as any other ho-hum album they've released.

Eh... I'm not so sure about that, Girlie. The firestorm was in 2003, and the album was released in May of this year. Thanks to TV and the internet, we all basically have 8 second attention spans. I'm sure there are people who are still butt-hurt over what she said and won't buy the album for that reason, but I personally didn't even think about that situation when I decided to get this album. Also, my parents are the most conservative people I know, and my mom sneers at even the tiniest liberal comment, but she is the one who first bought this CD and brought it to my attention.

My point is, I am loathe to believe that the firestorm increased their sales. This album has been successful because it is good.

OK, I didn't see Chris' comment until after mine had been posted. Perhaps I was wrong. Then again, I had no idea they had done that...

And thus, the Conservative extremists have once again created contention among the masses. 'Patriotism' and 'supporting the president' are two completely different things, but the GOP would have us all think otherwise. Is it unpatriotic for people to express their views, regardless of race, creed, profession, sex and venue??? On the contrary. It is our right as Americans. Freedom of speech. Comment boards. Community theatre. Stages in London. Does it really matter? Opinion is a beautiful thing. Devisiveness comes from people afraid of losing their power. Think bullies in the schoolyard. If you're not with me, you're against me. Again, the "absolute' attitudes do our country no favors.

Any extremist will use the "if you're not with me you're against me" argument. Christian extremists use it. Muslim extremists use it. Scientology extremists use it. Global warming extremists use it. It is simply part of the repertoire. (And I do agree absolute attitudes do no favors.)

"Conservative extremists" (Toby Keith etc.) may have made a stink about the whole thing, but I don't think that was the reason for the drastic change of opinion. Sure there was the DJ shitstorm and burning/steamrolling of CDs, but I imagine what she said left a bad taste in many mouths because they do equate supporting the President to supporting our country, and not because anyone told them too. I have friends who do not like the President but will not say anything disparaging about him (as a person, policy is fair game) because they believe it demeans our highest Executive office. Just how they were raised.

And in regards to the movie, I don't think anyone cares about what she said anymore, everyone is too busy with Britney Spears, K-Fed, and now Kramer.

cmoody:
But, since she didn't say any of these things. I still don't understand your argument. Expressing disappointment in the president has NOTHING to do with whether or not one supports the troops.

But she didn't just express disappointment in the President. She said,"We're on the good side with y'all. ... We don't want this violence."

She implied that anyone who supported the war was on the "bad side," and then said she was embarrassed by the President. It seems logical that those two statements were linked, and not merely two non sequiturs. She was embarrassed because the President got us involved in the war.

So at least in this case, she didn't support the President because she didn't support what he'd ordered the troops to do.

dammitjane, I realize you've probably moved past this thread a long time ago, and I realize my opinion probably isn't worth the pixels it's written with, but I think your ability to see and possibly concede that you may have been wrong speaks incredibly highly of you. We should all be more like you.

"My whole issue was the same issue I have with all celebritys who spout off their political views. They are just stating their opinions. They (generally) have no educational/professional background to justify what they say. This isn't to say that their opinions aren't valid-they are, but I think it's irresponsible of them to do so."

I'm about as sick of in-my-face worthless airhead Hyde-goers as the next person, but I'm going to have to disagree with Girlie, if only on principle, and defend celebs' right to spout off--and I have something other than a Chomskyan point to make about it.

While I think calling Top 40 bands and Hollywood A-listers "artists" is a stretch, many believe they fall into the same category as songwriters and novelists and painters (I'm not so sure when it comes to today's actors...I'll have to think about that one). Songwriters, novelists and painters, generally, don't have an educational or political background, either, and yet that's exactly what artists do--that's what their job is: have an opinion about the world, about politics, about philosophy in general, and communicate it to us in either original or hackneyed ways. The Chicks may not be freaking Orwell but, IMO, it's just a difference of degree, not of kind.

I'm no Chicks fan and I grit my teeth to say it, but however "corporate" they may be, I understand from this thread that they write some of their own stuff, hence...they are artists in the universal sense of the word.

As Margaret Cho has so eloquently pointed out, no one should condemn The Chicks as artists--or indeed be surprised--for spouting an opinion in the middle of a concert (their artistic locus).

Art = opinion (even if you believe art can be apolitical)

When I go to a concert, I just don't want to hear the performer's political views - I want to hear the music and see the performer do his/her job. At my job, I don't sit around spouting off my opinions about the war, the President, or politics in general. I don't really care what the Dixie Chicks views are - I'm from Texas and I love the Chicks - I can't help it that they don't agree with my beliefs but I have different beliefs than some of my friends and that's not going to make be stop being friends with them.

But the context is the whole problem. You don't say you're embarrassed to have known someone at that person's funeral; you don't joke about the bride's chastity at her wedding, and you don't tell a foreign audience that you're embarrassed about what American troops are doing at the same time that they're amassing along a foreign nation's border and about to risk their lives in the service of their country.

That's not what she said. She never said anything about the troops. She said they were embarassed that the President of the United States was from Texas. It got twisted to mean she didn't support the troops or what have you. She was (is) angry at Bush because of his decision to go to war.

I'm uncertain how saying "We don't want this violence" is bad? Should she have said "please kill lots of people for us!" She was saying that the good side is against violence.

She was embarrassed because the President got us involved in the war.

So at least in this case, she didn't support the President because she didn't support what he'd ordered the troops to do.

That's exactly it! She didn't support the President because of what he ordered the troops to do. That's not remotely the same as not supporting the troops that simply carry out the orders of the President. The President. The President's orders. Not the troops. They didn't go invade Iraq of their own volition. They were ordered to and ultimately the order came from the President.

I have never understood why some people see some inextricable link between the politically elected Commander In Chief and the grunt sweating in the desert. One should be able to express disappointment with the commander in chief without having it reflected on the troops. If I say "Bush is doing a shitty job in Iraq", it's not the same as saying "The troops of the 101st Airborne division are doing a shitty job in Iraq". The troops are just doing what they're told, and if Natalie Maines thinks that they're being told to do something wrong, that doesn't mean she thinks they're bad people. It might mean she thinks the person who thought up the order is a bad person. Which is what I think she meant.

Sure, people can not buy their CDs. But some people made a concerted effort to destroy their career. Which is different than simply a bunch of people not buying their CDs or going to their shows.

The new album was written after the blow-up. It was written by them (with some help from a few others). They wrote about their lives. And since much of their recent lives have revolved around the incident (as they term it), that's what they wrote about. They also wrote about their kids, issues in Natalie's hometown, infertility and other stuff. So, yeah, they wrote about the fallout from the incident. And of course they were asked about it in interviews. And they picked Not Ready To Make Nice as the first release from the album. But it happens to be the best song on the album (I think it's the best single song out this year). And some country stations were playing it, I guess. Maybe they picked it to be combative. Natilie especially, seems pretty feisty.

There is nothing political about any of the songs on the new CD. Not even close to something like, say, P!nk's Dear Mr. President. So I don't think they purposely stirred up a shit storm to sell CDs. I do know, however, a person who bought their CDs specifically because they supported what they said in London in 2003. And this person was suprised at how good they were. So they bought some others and really liked them. And then there are folks who refuse to buy them because of the incident. Either one is fine, and I don't think that the Dixie Chicks are too concerned about those people. I was buying their CDs prior to the incident (and I generally don't like modern country music).

The whole point of the movie, I think, is to show what happened when they did express their opinions and how it was affected by who their audience was. Now, I happen to think that it shows how ignorant the average country music fan is. But that's my opinion. And their audience has changed.

When I go to a concert, I just don't want to hear the performer's political views - I want to hear the music and see the performer do his/her job. At my job, I don't sit around spouting off my opinions about the war, the President, or politics in general.

She said one thing at a concert. A comment on a very current world event - imminent war. At your job you've never, ever, ever mentioned current events to anyone else there? Never discussed the war or elections or politics? They don't sing political songs, they don't make political statements (well, they did during the Rock For Change Tour in 2004, but that was specifically a political fund raising tour). It's not like they stand there and regale you with endless anti-Bush diatribes. They pretty much do just shut up and sing. So, you'd be pretty safe from politics going to a Dixie Chicks show on this tour (Austin 12/4, Dallas 12/5). It's a kick ass show, though not as good as the previous "Top Of The World Tour" in 2003.

"At your job you've never, ever, ever mentioned current events to anyone else there? Never discussed the war or elections or politics? They don't sing political songs, they don't make political statements (well, they did during the Rock For Change Tour in 2004, but that was specifically a political fund raising tour). It's not like they stand there and regale you with endless anti-Bush diatribes. They pretty much do just shut up and sing."

I love this comment...so often people forget that, at least for performers, getting up on stage every night is a "job", and sometimes, yeah, your opinion is gonna come out on things. Granted, it is a different kind of job, a job that lets you express that opinion to hundreds of people at a time, but still...

To paraphrase Steve Earle, I thought it was their fucking job to talk about politics. I don't agree with Maines' statement, her timing, or venue, but she was stating her opinion as is her right. I'd hate to stop listening to good music (the Dixie Chicks or anyone else's) simply because of what they say in between songs. And I'd really hate to be able to listen only to music produced by people with like-minded political convictions (have you checked out Lee Atwater's new box set? didn't think so). There is something a little magical about music produced by dreamers with their heads in the clouds. Would Bob Marley or Bob Dylan or the Beatles or Public Enemy or Rage Against the Machine or System of a Down or (insert your favorite here) be any good if they were Republicans? Umm, probably not. The passion and idealism of liberalism is a fertile ground for artistic expression.

The Dixie Chicks paid a price for Maines voicing her opinion, but don't feel too sorry for them. They've sold bajillions of albums, and while they may not ever reach their previous sales levels, they won't be going hungry anytime soon either.

CosmicBob,
Don't you realize that by not supporting the President and blindly following him and accepting every half truth and lie that utters forth from his mouth makes you both unpatriotic and a truly Horrible, no good, very bad American /end sarcasm.

Toby Keith is still a huge bitch. Every time I hear/see him I just start hoping he gets a papercut and has to go cut lemons. Or stubs his toe. I really hope he stubs his toe!

you might laugh at this but this months playboy has a really good write up with the dixie chicks. they dont hold back and my radio station around here and i will call you out t-102 in lima ohio has taken them off the air. for the most part its there call but its mine to go out and get there albumn. i like both dixie chicks and toby keith but it really sucks when the best cant get along. they both have there points but what toby did was cross the line. nice work by the playboy writer and we no the chicks wont hold back and it was nice to read there side of the story. long live the chicks and damn they are hot. sorry no nude pixs. lol

There is no "appropriate venue" clause in the First Amendment.

Also, to me, saying "we're on the good side with y'all, we don't want this violence" implies that you DO support the troops because you don't want them to get senselessly killed in an ill-conceived shitshow of a war.

Thank GOD someone finally said it: they didn't even need to be embarrassed, since Bush isn't from Texas, anyway! I've always been comforted by that fact myself.

The people protesting and burning their CDs and shit back in 2003 actually made me go out and buy my first Dixie Chicks CD. They got a lot of new fans from that. And now I support them always. I'm going to see this film and get their newest CD. They are fantastic, they're music is fantastic, what's not to like?

By the way, there's a cartoon strip in my local paper, not in the editorial section, but in the funnies, and he's ALWAYS political, he's ALWAYS nasty about it and he's ALWAYS spouting republican talking points. You know what I do? I skip his cartoon strip. I don't tear it out and burn it or email him death threats. I simply skip it. It's what ADULTS do.

"By the way, there's a cartoon strip in my local paper, not in the editorial section, but in the funnies, and he's ALWAYS political, he's ALWAYS nasty about it and he's ALWAYS spouting republican talking points. You know what I do? I skip his cartoon strip. I don't tear it out and burn it or email him death threats. I simply skip it. It's what ADULTS do."

And that, my friends, is the crux of it. Well said, Kathy.

"By the way, there's a cartoon strip in my local paper, not in the editorial section, but in the funnies, and he's ALWAYS political, he's ALWAYS nasty about it and he's ALWAYS spouting republican talking points. You know what I do? I skip his cartoon strip. I don't tear it out and burn it or email him death threats. I simply skip it. It's what ADULTS do."

And that, my friends, is the crux of it. Well said, Kathy.

sorry 'bout the double post, y'all.

*blush* why, Comish, thank you. you just made my day!!!

*blush* why, Comish, thank you. you just made my day!!!

*blush* why, Comish, thank you. you just made my day!!!

Whoops!!! Sorry 'bout all that. The tryptophan is already starting to kick in.....

Would Bob Marley or Bob Dylan or the Beatles or Public Enemy or Rage Against the Machine or System of a Down or (insert your favorite here) be any good if they were Republicans? Umm, probably not. The passion and idealism of liberalism is a fertile ground for artistic expression.

I wasn't planning on saying anything, as I thought the issue had been well debated from both sides in an adult manner up until this point, however Mike's comment got my hackles up. Good music is good because it comes from a place of passion and emotional honesty, whether the source of that passion is heartache or political activism. To imply that conservative musicians are not passionate or idealistic, or that liberal musicians are somehow moreso, is honestly offensive to me. It is a very small-minded thing to say. I've heard just as much grandstanding tripe from liberal musicians who can't get off the soapbox (ahem, NOFX) as I have from conservatives (come on down Toby Kieth). It's not so much that I have a problem with the way they've expressed their views as the fact that they slip into sort of a mindelss rabid frenzy when they do it: their arguments become illogical, statements and lyrics vapid, and such meaningless sound can never be good music to me.

I think all of the bands you mentioned could be just as good if they were Republicans, because the passion and idealism they put forth so well in their music would still be there, just directed at supporting a different agenda.

But would you still listen?

Astraea: Idealism is a characteristic traditionally associated with liberalism, don't get all offended. Jeez.

Astraea:

I am a conservative. But to make a sweeping generalization, most good popular music is made by people of a liberal persuasion, and the popular music produced by die-hard conservatives is usually dreck. Can someone who voted for Bush be capable of making good music? Certainly, but an exhaustive scientific study of my gut proved that while the vote in the 2004 presidential election was close to 50-50 Republican/Democrat, the overwhelming majority of quality music is made by pie-in-the-sky liberals. And according to this (http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b140fd711ae.htm), there are very few non-country musicians of a conservative bent. And very few of those are what I would call "good" music, unless you are a huge Jon Secada or Ted Nugent fan(ZZ Top probably the only one I really like, but to each his own).

I love bluegrass music, and many many inspired and talented musicians in that genre are conservative Republicans. But even there, what I'd consider the great creative voices are liberal - Tim O'Brien, David Grisman, Peter Rowan, to name a few. There is something about the creative mind that lends itself towards liberal thinking. Vacuous liberal political statements such as "the answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind," make much better songs than conservative philosophy. "The answer, my friend, is in strong national defense and fiscal responsibility" just doesn't have the same ring.

"The answer, my friend, is in strong national defense and fiscal responsibility" just doesn't have the same ring.

Good Lord. Can you imagine if he'd have sung that at the Free Trade Hall. Shouts of "Judas!" would have been the least of his worries.

Idealism is a characteristic traditionally associated with liberalism? Seriously? Have you ever met a hard-core conservative? Trust me, they're idealistic. Their ideals are just different than yours.

Kitty, that's food for thought. One of the most striking "right-wing" ideals that immediately comes to mind is the "family values" ideal--that impossible ideal of the happy, blemish-free nuclear family (which has been destroyed by, you know, the feminists and the gays.)

Others: "The right to bear arms" and abstinence programs.

And then there's your "America Land of the Free" ideal--woo, that's a hefty one!

Anyone for apple pie?

Okay first of all they said "we're ashamed the president is from Texas" not "we do not support our troops at all, whatsoever, nuh-uh". You can, as others have already said, support the troops from your country while still hating the poster boy for idiots everywhere, George W Bush.

I'd never heard of the Dixie Chicks before I saw the trailer for this movie and I now have most of their songs.

For God's sake, George Bush is a moron. He writes notes like a schoolboy in the middle of important conferences, he screws up his speeches, and most of the time he looks as if he's trying to join up his two brain cells in order to form a coherent thought. Whoever still thinks he's wonderful and brave needs a free one way ticket to reality.

Maines was right to stick to her guns.

Ranylt, your post brought up another point that deserves being made. Why is it that the Dixie Chicks are applauded for sticking to their guns when speaking up about a war that they find morally reprehensible, and Christians are denigrated for sticking to their guns when speaking up about homosexuality, which they find morally reprehensible?

Both sides of each issue come from philosophically pure places - liberals believe that Bush lives in a moral vacuum, led only by his misguided prejudices and self-centered desires, and some (and it is a limited group, despite what GLAAD would have you believe) Christians believe that homosexuals do the same. Yet somehow, Christians are derided for speaking out against something they believe is morally wrong, while the Dixie Chicks are applauded for their free thought and courage. It's a double standard, and one more reprehensible than any concerted effort by Clear Channel Communications to drum up an audience by steam rolling Dixie Chicks CDs.

"Yet somehow, Christians are derided for speaking out against something they believe is morally wrong, while the Dixie Chicks are applauded for their free thought and courage. It's a double standard, and one more reprehensible than any concerted effort by Clear Channel Communications to drum up an audience by steam rolling Dixie Chicks CDs."

The difference is that the Christian Right's are heavily represented, contrary to popular belief, in this country. As much as they complain about being beaten down by the northeasterncommieliberalelite, they're not. The party shift in the White House (Alleluia) is pretty recent and followed over a decade's worth of Republican ascendance. I'm not lumping Republicans and the Christian Right together, but the former were mighty protective of the latter's interests (gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, etc.).

Also, you're trying to link as like things that are unlike. I can't conceive of what's courageous or free-thinking about being homophobic.

"Yet somehow, Christians are derided for speaking out against something they believe is morally wrong, while the Dixie Chicks are applauded for their free thought and courage. It's a double standard, and one more reprehensible than any concerted effort by Clear Channel Communications to drum up an audience by steam rolling Dixie Chicks CDs."

The difference is that the Christian Right's are heavily represented, contrary to popular belief, in this country. As much as they complain about being beaten down by the northeasterncommieliberalelite, they're not. The party shift in the White House (Alleluia) is pretty recent and followed over a decade's worth of Republican ascendance. I'm not lumping Republicans and the Christian Right together, but the former were mighty protective of the latter's interests (gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, etc.). Also, the Christian Right doesn't simply "speak out" - they expect state and federal laws to follow their way of thinking (despite our separation of church/state).

Also, you're trying to link as like things that are unlike. I can't conceive of what's courageous or free-thinking about being homophobic.

Also, the Christian Right doesn't simply "speak out" - they expect state and federal laws to follow their way of thinking (despite our separation of church/state).

Exactly. The DC expressed their shame of George Bush - they didn't lobby for him to be impeached or thrown out of office. They didn't campaign to ensure that any member of the Bush family can't run for political office because they are ashamed of him. They didn't push for any rights to be withheld from him because they don't agree with his lifestyle.

I realize that this nation is majority Christian, and it's natural for people to want their beliefs and values reflected. However, that's not all this nation is - a religious nation. It's supposed to be about freedom, pursuit of happiness, and all that as well. And given how critical many Americans are of how middle Eastern/majority Muslim countries are run, I would think the hyprocrisy of trying to do the same thing here would be clear to those who are in office.

Boy howdy, this was one hell of a satisfying read! After a round-trip 1000-mile interstate ride to the relatives & my 1st morning back home, I read a review and accompanying comments that simply stagger me and even make me feel somewhat important. I never thought a site could do that to me.
To read so many different points of view from what seems to me to be a pretty diverse group, and be absolutely engrossed in reading EVERY SINGLE ONE - the odds are amazing that even the opinions I absolutely disagree with are so eloquently and thoughtfully expressed, just one after the other -- I have to stop here because I haven't even gotten to the NMN Kramer article yet and, as is becoming more and more often, I'm WAY more anticipatory of reading the comments section than the article itself, and I saw there were many!
I'll just have to close by saying that when I read all of the posters on this site I feel like I'm hanging with the coolest crowd there is. Daniel, Dustin, et al, you're doing a great job, but you better keep on your toes with this crowd. Simply the best...

Sorry for the double double post post.

I think everything I've wanted to say has already been covered.

Spender,

Just wanted to say AMEN to everything you said. He is definitely not from this great state and its about time people realize that. He also completely stole the office from Ann Richards and I'm sad till this day. And props to being from Wee-chi-ta Falls! Grew up in Burk.

S

Here's a famous quote that makes me think the Dixie Chicks have definitely seen their situation clearly:

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

And, apparently, at any time.

That's Hermann Goering's statement. I think it applies extremely well here, as the girls have bravely demonstrated.

I just saw themovie and throughly enjoyed it, even inspired. Thank you Pajiba for their consistantly right-on review, for if it wasn't for them I might have kept watching "For Your Consideration" instead of walking out for this movie. And thanks everyone on the comment board for inspiring and provoking read.

I hate to pour oil in the fire, there seems to be only one person here so far who've drawen pararell between Dixie Chicks situation and John Lennon "Beatles is more populer than Jesus" Comment situation (and that person seems to have thought Texasa was completely justified in that one. "Don't mess with Texas", I guess?). Does no one else sees that?

IMO, yes, John was stupid for saying that and he knew that. No, the situation or circumstances or the nature of his opinion is not same as DC's. But, John's words also were taken out of context and the back lash they got from American audience was way overboard and unnecessarily violent. And, I DO beleive the incident made Beatles and John Lennon better artistically. In both situation, spouting their political (or religious) view point and getting back lash made them stronger and more mature artists.

Anyways, just want to give my two pennies. I apologise for all the typos and bad grammer (I'm not even sure if I spelled that one right.) I have been up since 6:30 am engrossed in reading this site.

An End to Good Wars
So, three years ago the Texan trio's lead vocalist spoke to the feeling in the air, something performers often cite; she spoke up about the obvious symptoms of the Presidency in trouble, when there was a real demand to identify as a citizen and not a pawn. Why do so few seem to recall that they were in the UK, an ally of the U.S. more likely than not to be dragged into the fray?
What if they had said it in New York City?

Mark Twain once wrote:
Loyalty to the country, always.
Loyalty to the government, when it deserves it.

Can anyone honestly say that this was a necessary, sensible war? Are the same people just as "right" now because no-one wants to admit they were wrong three years ago? Rumsfeld ist raus, already. Stay the course, but lose the dead weight, neh?

As a descendant of two German families, I pray that the people of such a beautiful land endure their responsibility to learn from other national histories. I pray, indeed, that we do not become the thing we seek to fight with. I pray, but not to a vengeful God under whom a flag of convenience is to be waved.
The great lands of North America owe the rest of the planet a debt, of history, of priviledge and resources.
We should serve to lessen that debt, not to inflame it, but now that the last "good war" was fought so long ago, are we learning to be citizens, or to be spectators?
Three Texan women in Europe, speaking to other Westerners about their own government - if that was ever a crime, it was before that last good war.
Peace, Raus.

I'm from West Texas too, and just wanted to point out the below information from Wikipedia. I think "carpet-bagger" is a strong word to describe someone who moved at the age of 2. Do you really think he begged his parents to go so he could later become governor?

"Born in New Haven, Connecticut, Bush was the first child of George H. W. Bush and his wife Barbara Bush. His paternal ancestors emigrated from Somerset in the West Country of England in the seventeenth century. Bush's parents moved from Connecticut to Texas when he was two years old. He was raised in Midland and Houston, Texas, with his four siblings, Jeb, Neil, Marvin, and Dorothy."

I do agree with a lot of what is being said here, and while I identify myself as a Republican, I do not agree with the way our current president has twisted traditionally conservative ideology. Still, pick on the man based on his actions and words, not petty geographic inaccuracies.

I think they're great, but their careers havin't sunk into the West because of the Bush comment. I went to one of their concerts about a year and a half ago and I was startled to say the least. It was a dyke fest; over 2/3 of the audienced was women groping each other, kissing each other and otherwise acting out. Their audience used to be composed of families---like in small children---there is no way I'd want to take my children to a concert like that. My ex-wife did take a ten year old and they simply walkked oput.

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I do not care for their music but this whole thing pisses me off to no end when I see mindless sheep criticizing someone with a sheepless opinion. I mean death threats?
This whole "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." shit, is just a prime example of the idiocy that's ruining freedom of speech and freedom in itself.

By the way. The stage can be used for opinions. That's the part of being an artist is to express what they feel. Too bad, your puppet has to have someone write all of his opinions for him.

America just needs another good old fashioned civil war to weed out these ignorant and scared amoeba's.

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