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The Five Least "Gay" Gay Characters on Television

By Dustin Rowles | Posted Under Seriously Random Lists | Comments (96)



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I grew up in a gay household, and I had no fucking clue that my father was homosexual until the day I discovered a large stack of Playgirl magazines hidden away in a locked drawer in his desk (even then, it took a while to fully realize it). By that point, my father had convinced a lot of people, for over 40 years, that he was straight (including my mother, who had three children with him). It had never even occurred to me that he was gay because he had never exhibited any of the characteristics that television and the movies had taught me to associate with homosexuality. No, he didn’t like sports, and he was very particular about his hair, but that’s true of a lot of men. In fact, he was so atypical of gay men as depicted in the popular media that, even when dudes slept overnight on the couch, it never even occurred to me that he was banging them after I fell asleep.

Gay Newsweek columnist Ramin Setoodeh, in his much discussed column this week, has raised a lot of issues around the Interwebs about what it means to act gay or straight in movies, in television, and even on the stage, arguing that openly gay actors — by virtue of being openly gay — have a difficult time convincing their audiences of the heterosexuality of their characters. A lot of celebrities have weighed in this week; Kristen Chenowith fired the first shot. “Glee’s” Ryan Murphy declared war, and now others are joining, including most recently openly gay screenwriter, Dustin Lance Black, who has joined GLAAD in protesting Newsweek. Others, including Mike Alvear, have even come to defense of the Newsweek column, arguing (maybe even reasonably): “What’s the difference between seeing Sean Hayes in a straight role and thinking “HE’S GAY” and watching Tom Cruise in any role and thinking “HE’S AN IDIOT?”

What I don’t think has been addressed (or rather, I haven’t seen it addressed yet, though given the proliferation of think pieces out there on the subject, surely it has already) is the slight note of hypocrisy in Ryan Murphy’s assault of Ramin Setoodeh. I fully agree with all of what Murphy wrote in his open letter, but what he doesn’t himself address is something that Aaron Sorkin, over on The Huffington Post, brought up: “An actor, no matter which sex they’re attracted to, can’t “play” gay or “play” straight. Gay and straight aren’t actable things. You can act effeminate and you can act macho (though macho usually ends up reading as gay), but an actor can’t play gay or straight any more than they can play Catholic.”

That was the point I was trying to make, and that many people missed, when I posted that frivolous Seriously Random List on “The Five Gayest Straight Actors in Hollywood.” That was five presumably straight actors who, in some instances, fit the stereotypical mold of a gay character. I don’t think any of those guys are actually gay (except for maybe Tom Cruise), any more than I think Hugh Jackman is gay because he likes to sing and dance — that just makes him awesome. And the many folks who chimed in to say, “Who cares if he’s gay?” are exactly right. Nobody should care if they are, any more than those actors (or the movie blogger) should care if people think they are (although it might bother my wife occasionally, I certainly don’t care if readers think I’m gay; if you grow up in Arkansas and don’t hunt, fish, or abuse your wife, then you’re bound to be called a “fa**ot” a few times. You accept it as a compliment because it means you’re not an asshole homophobic needle-dick redneck with some serious insecurity issues).

The point I’m getting at about Ryan Murphy is this: He’s not making it easy by saddling his gay character in “Glee” with every goddamn stereotype in the book. I like “Glee,” and I like Kurt, but he’s not exactly blowing up the stereotypes: He’s essentiating them. Here’s a kid who dresses well, moisturizes a lot, loves showtunes, and hates sports. I have no idea if the actor who plays Kurt is straight or gay, but if he is gay, my guess is that he’s not gay as depicted in “Glee.” But that kid sure does a hell of a nice job of portraying a stereotype.

The larger point here is that Ramin Setoodeh might not have ever been able to even make his argument in the first place if it weren’t for the fact that, in movies and television, too many gay characters act gay — as dictated by people who apparently have never met a gay person in their lives — instead of acting like people. As Sorkin wrote, you can’t act gay any more than you can act straight. We all fulfill some of those gay stereotypes (I think Ryan Reynolds is attractive and I moisturize — that’s just good sense, people), as well as the straight ones (I watch 12 hours of NFL a week during the football season and I have sex with a woman), but it doesn’t mean we’re either/or. It just means we’re people with varying interests.

Indeed, television would be a much better place and we wouldn’t have to worry about gay actors being typecast as flaming queens if all gay characters on television were more like these five below, who are characters who just happen to be gay instead of gay characters. Particular respect should be paid to number five, a character that was on television around the same time as “Will & Grace.” I had almost completely forgotten that “Spin City’s” Carter was gay until I was putting together this post. And, as I recall, that was even a big part of the show’s humor: Stuart’s (Alan Ruck’s) discomfort around Carter. But Carter and “Spin City” were great for exposing those stereotypes for what they are: Completely dumb.

The other four, to varying degrees, have done the same to defy gay stereotypes. Ryan Murphy should take some notes.


Michael Boatman as Carter Sebastian Heywood in “Spin City”

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Jesse Tyler Fergusion as Mitchell Pritchett in “Modern Family”

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Oscar Nunez as Oscar Martinez in “The Office”

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Michael C. Hall as David Fisher in “Six Feet Under”

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John Barrowman as Captain Jack Harkness in “Doctor Who” and “Torchwood”

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Comments

And a golf clap for Dustin!

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at May 13, 2010 3:09 PM

#1 & #2 are nom nom nom-able....

Posted by: dammitjanet at May 13, 2010 3:12 PM

I LOVE this article, so very very much but I do want to weigh in with this tidbit, which is that Ryan Murphy wrote the part of Kurt for Chris Colfer after Colfer tore up his audition for, I believe, the Artie role. Murphy loved him, saw he wasn't right for Artie, and thus wrote a character that essentially IS Chris Colfer, only dialed up to 11. They named the kid Kurt because Colfer played Kurt in a stage production of Sound of Music and said something in his audition about his face having "Von Trapp" written all over it.

I don't think this negates your point, but it flavors it. No?

Posted by: coveredinbees at May 13, 2010 3:14 PM

To be fair about Cap'n Jack, he'll bang pretty much anything- male, female, non-sexually-definable extra-terrestrial. Hasn't he banged a couple of life-forms that didn't even really have shapes?

And he's TOTALLY HOT while doing it. Also, cool as a cucumber.

Posted by: Anna von Beaversmack at May 13, 2010 3:15 PM

Kima and Omar on "The Wire" should 1(a) and 1(b) on this list.

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at May 13, 2010 3:18 PM

This post...is it weird that I'm kind of proud to be a reader of this site? As in, I read a site that is so thought-provoking and intelligent that nuanced, brilliant pieces like this can be both intensely powerful and surprisingly funny, and it's not even close to the first time I've thought that about something that's been written here.

I kind of feel like I have better taste in websites than most people after reading this

Posted by: ChristianH at May 13, 2010 3:19 PM

Finally some clarity on all the hoopla caused by that stupid Newsweek article around here. As far as I'm concerned, the list could have been Tosh, Ianto, Owen, Captain Jack Harkness, and Captain John Hart from Torchwood, but that would really be commandeering the list. A team of four alien investigators that freely swing both ways while kicking ass and screwing anything that moves, plus an anti-hero that does the same.

Posted by: Robert at May 13, 2010 3:20 PM

You could probably also add Rawls from "The Wire" to that list. He was the furthest thing from a gay stereotype.

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at May 13, 2010 3:21 PM

What no Omar?

Posted by: Justin at May 13, 2010 3:21 PM

Huh. I've been watching Torchwood and it didn't occur to me that the Captain might be gay. I've just been finding his character alternately annoying and amusing.

Posted by: pxilated at May 13, 2010 3:26 PM

Can't really agree on Mitchell, even though I do like Modern Family. He has a figure skating background, for chrissakes. Plus, they found a way to put him in a dress. That one was cringe-worthy. Mitchell is less stereotypically femme-y than Cameron, but so are drag queens.

Posted by: The Wandering Parakeet at May 13, 2010 3:27 PM

Michael C. Hall played the straightest gay guy I've ever seen. I didn't know his character was even supposed to be gay until it was explicitly mentioned, and that's how it should be.

And someone please tell John Barrowman to lay off the Botox. Laugh lines are sexy.

Posted by: BWeaves at May 13, 2010 3:31 PM

Dustin, I love you. That first paragraph sums up the first, like, 16 years of my life exactly. And I think Aaron Sorkin is spot on in his assessment of all of this. I have to say something about Glee here though. Full disclosure: I am not a fan at all but in defense of the stereotypical characters portrayed on that show I have always assumed that that's what the creators were going for. I mean, the set up is totally "musical theater" and there is nothing even remotely realistic about musical theater. Randomly bursting into song and dance numbers only happens in worlds inhabited by stereotypes and I feel like a big part of the fan base is watching and is entertained because they are stereotypes. I don't think anyone is watching Glee for the hard hitting, realistic portrayal of today's high school life.

Posted by: JenVegas at May 13, 2010 3:35 PM

I think Ryan Reynolds is attractive and I moisturize — that’s just good sense, people

::wild applause::

Posted by: stopthemadness at May 13, 2010 3:39 PM

This actor (eh... a Kinsey 2) is very, very glad you wrote this. Thank you Dustin! And bravo. :-)

Posted by: ShinyKate at May 13, 2010 3:39 PM

oddly, i think oscar "acted gayer" in the proposal than he ever has on the office, and he was straight in the proposal.

Posted by: stopthemadness at May 13, 2010 3:42 PM

pxilated, I think they play him for camp more when he shows up in early seasons of Doctor Who - in Torchwood he just becomes kind of anything-that-moves-sexual. But his sexuality is definitely in the plot. As I recall it may be more of a season 2 development.

Posted by: Anne (in Reno) at May 13, 2010 3:44 PM

This is great, Dustin. Also, yea, I second what JenVegas said about Ryan Murphy wanting to amp up the stereotypes.

Posted by: dene at May 13, 2010 3:51 PM

I wouldn't put him in a top ten but Matthew Rhys in "Brothers & Sisters" is as 'straight-acting' as a gay man in a nighttime soap can be. No less than any other male character on the show at least.

(Plus? It's Matthew Rhys. Come on.)

Now, what about the ladies? I'm sure there are a few of those, too.

Posted by: Charlie Dia at May 13, 2010 3:51 PM

This was a well though out post. This is why I love this site. People who are far more eloquent that I write wonderful piece like this when all I can do is sputter "idiot" and "fuck you." Thank you.

Posted by: Nimue at May 13, 2010 3:53 PM

I third (?) some love for Omar. That character was just amazing. He was one of the main reasons I watched The Wire.

Posted by: Carrie (aka Teabelly) at May 13, 2010 3:55 PM

@Forbiddendonut

Rawls? I think I missed that while watching the Wire.

Posted by: ERM at May 13, 2010 3:59 PM

I like Kurt, but he’s not exactly blowing up the stereotypes: He’s essentiating them.

I think you mean "accentuating."

Excellent post, though.

Posted by: mswas at May 13, 2010 4:02 PM

*Applaud*

Although I just want to put this out there:

We all know that not every gay guy in the world is an overly-pampered queen. But the thing is, we need Kurts just as badly as we need Captain Jacks. Kurt may not be the most macho guy in the world, but he's a positive role model for gay teens who are out and proud and, yes, even a little femme. And we need Captain Jack because, well, gay guys kick major ass on a daily basis, so that covers the other side of the coin. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but we need both macho and effeminate gays in the media because there will never be an all-encompassing gay male. Hell, there will never be an all-encompassing representative for any group of people. But I like the point you made Dustin, which was to show that gay isn't a personality, it's a person.

Posted by: Jeremy Feist at May 13, 2010 4:07 PM

I like Kurt, but he’s not exactly blowing up the stereotypes: He’s essentiating them.

I think you mean "accentuating."

Excellent post, though.

Posted by: mswas at May 13, 2010 4:02 PM

Essentiate:
Es*sen"ti*ate\, v. i. To become assimilated; to be changed into the essence.

Posted by: The Other Agent Johnson at May 13, 2010 4:18 PM

"I moisturize — that’s just good sense, people)"


On this we are in total agreement, seriously, I can't stress this enough people.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at May 13, 2010 4:18 PM

I stand corrected. I did look but was searching for "essentiating" and missed the link to "essentiate."

Still an excellent post.

Posted by: mswas at May 13, 2010 4:24 PM

For real, y'all. BSlim's hands are SO SOFT. It's like holding a baby.

Posted by: Anna von Beaversmack at May 13, 2010 4:27 PM

Thanks for a well-thought and well-said post, Dustin. I'm glad to hear you don't really care when people call you "GAAAAAYYYYY" up in here, as they are wont to do. I guess anyone who runs a website better have a thick skin.

On point, most of what's on TV is drek. Because it's drek, every character has a "shorthand" that's supposed to tell you all you need to know to "understand" them. Everything is exaggerated. So the gay characters are usually super-HELLA-mega Gay with a capital "G". On really *good* shows, all of the characters are complex, and who they are is revealed slowly, through their actions, not a quick flick of the wrist and a falsetto squeal. So let's lobby for more good television.

Posted by: MM at May 13, 2010 4:39 PM

Add these to the least 'gay' gay people in movies:
-Kristen Scott Thomas in Tell No One
-Ben Daniels in The State Within
-John Hannah in Four Weddings and a Funeral

Posted by: Stella at May 13, 2010 4:47 PM

This post makes me think of Gay Perry. And how somehow Robert Downey Jr. can make a line like "don't quit your GAY job" actually work.

Posted by: poorpetebest at May 13, 2010 5:34 PM

Yeah, I never understood the "acting gay" or "acting straight" bullshit. I mean, I know what most people mean when they say it, but like most shit most people say, that doesn't mean it makes any sense. I don't know what the numbers are on "stereotypically" gay people vs. gay people who don't act stereotypically (ie, what percentage of gay people really do act stereotypically gay), but I'm guessing it's not as lopsided as most people think. I'm straight (whatever the hell that means any more), but I'm not girly. Never married. I'm positive that most people who know me think I'm a lesbian. Whatever, I don't really give a shit. Most "behavior" is just the crap whatever society we grew up in brainwashed us into doing according to our gender/age/income/religion, it's not inherent.

Posted by: Slash at May 13, 2010 5:44 PM

Mmm. Nice Barrowman photo up top there.

I'd forgotten about Carter, too - thanks for reminding me! I love that show.

I'd add a fairly new one to the list: Michael Cudlitz as Officer John Cooper in Southland.

Posted by: Tarn at May 13, 2010 5:52 PM

"I'm straight (whatever the hell that means any more), but I'm not girly. Never married. I'm positive that most people who know me think I'm a lesbian..."


Sooooo have you ever tried it? You know out with your girlfriends everyone returns to the apartment, a little tipsy...mmmmm, everyone in their panties get in a pillow fight...ah?

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at May 13, 2010 6:09 PM

address is something that Aaron Sorkin, over on The Huffington Post, brought up: “An actor, no matter which sex they’re attracted to, can’t “play” gay or “play” straight. Gay and straight aren’t actable things.

I don't think I buy that. What about Jim Carrey and Ewan McGregor in I Love You Phillip Morris? Since the two man characters are in fact gay, either that movie is a documentary about two homosexual men or they are "acting" gay. To say that they are not acting gay is to say that you can actually act anything.

Posted by: EricD at May 13, 2010 6:15 PM

That should have been 'two main characters", but I guess "man" works too. And I'd like to add that I'm saying that acting "gay" is different than acting "effeminate".

Posted by: EricD at May 13, 2010 6:26 PM

I know it's not TV, but I think one of the best performances as a gay character was Martin Donovan as Bill Truitt in The Opposite of Sex.

After seeing this movie, I decided every gay character in my scripts was going to be like Bill Truitt - confident and secure enough in their sexuality to just be, well, secure and confident. Not playing it "gay", not playing it straight, just being who he was.

On a related note, when John August wrote Go, one of the parts that really made him cringe, was the studio demanded that when the gay couple (Scott Wolf and Jay Mohr) spin out in their car, they were to "scream like schoolgirls".

I'm not sure if this offended John more because he's gay, or because he's a writer. The rest of Wolf and Mohr's characters in Go, were pretty damn good. It's a pity that the exec's didn't feel safe enough in their own gender roles to not poke this sort of fun at those characters' expense.

Posted by: DarthBrooks at May 13, 2010 6:28 PM

i think Hugh Jackman is gay because :
-he loves dancing and singing
-above all,he loves dancing and singing on Kylie Minogue music(he was at NY's Minogue concert)


Posted by: caro at May 13, 2010 7:03 PM

"i think Hugh Jackman is gay because :
-he loves dancing and singing
-above all,he loves dancing and singing on Kylie Minogue music(he was at NY's Minogue concert)"

Yes, because only HUGE HOMOS dance to Kylie Minogue.

That wasn't sarcasm. Girl has a point. heh

Jeremy Feist has an excellent comment up there about how there is room for both masculine and feminine gay characters, because it's all true to life. Just as there are David Fishers out there, butching it up in the funeral homes of America, there are plenty of Kurts out there, singing their little hearts out. TV today has something that we mostly didn't have when I was growing up: positive gay role models on primetime shows, and that can cover a lot of ground.

As for Kurt, I've read that Kurt's character was based on Ryan Murphy's own high school experiences, and a lot of Kurt's storylines ring really true and hit home for me. Gay kid growing up in a small town? Check. Unrequited crush on the class jock? Check. Having to LIE to a girl who wanted to go out with me? Check. Fearing that I wasn't "masculine" enough to make my father proud? Check. God, teenagers are fucked up enough WITHOUT the gay baggage. I really do respect Murphy for telling some of the stories he does, as ugly as they may be.

Posted by: Craig at May 13, 2010 7:59 PM

Just a by the by john barrowman actually is gay in real life not a biggie but just thought i mention it.

Posted by: Bryan at May 13, 2010 8:13 PM

"I'd add a fairly new one to the list: Michael Cudlitz as Officer John Cooper in Southland."

-YES. I was hoping he was mentioned. Great character and I am very pleased we are getting a third season.

Posted by: RepoGenetic at May 13, 2010 8:18 PM

I hope in about a hundred years this piece is going to seem extremely quaint. At the moment, though, it's spot on.

Agree on Omar and Kima!

Posted by: DarthCorleone at May 13, 2010 8:30 PM

Great call on Carter Heywood! Last week on the Community thread I was going to say that Abed and Troy are my favorite BFF characters since Carter and Stuart (and JD and Turk, but really just Turk), but I didn't because, well...because I didn't.

I 54th the nomination for Omar. And Kima. And Rawls. And Snoop, IIRC. Wow - until this thread, it never occurred to me that there were "so many" gay characters on The Wire (none of them even dated each other!). And that's the way it should be.

Posted by: Three-nineteen at May 13, 2010 8:39 PM

My family situation was very similar to Dustin's, and my father was also one of those gay men who don't seem to exhibit any of the characteristics that would seem to indicate that he was gay (although interestingly enough that seems to become less the case as he lives longer and longer as an openly gay man).

However... I don't agree. ON AVERAGE, there do seem to be certain shared characteristics among gay men that I believe can be portrayed on-screen. It's not an over-the-top flamboyance, and I don't even know if I can put a finger on it... but it's there. I think a talented actor could somehow isolate what those are and portray them in a subtle way.

Posted by: Can't agree at May 13, 2010 8:50 PM

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Posted by: lily at May 13, 2010 9:58 PM

Beautifully said. Oh and YUM.

Posted by: Cindy at May 13, 2010 10:05 PM

I would add Connor Paolo as Eric Van der Woodsen on Gossip Girl.

Posted by: Marcela at May 13, 2010 10:44 PM

Sorkin is wrong.

Of course you can play gay. If you're paying a character that's got a smidge of same-sex identification, you're playing queer.

Where we fall down is with the identification of certain traits/tropes with sexuality. We lazily and heteronormatively expect particular markers to universally signify and subsequently those markers become reductive and offensive.

This is such a twisty topic because we need to begin the process of normalisation, de-othering and acceptance people mean when they say stuff like "not a GAY character, a character who is gay" while simultaneously acknowledging the real, very important need for people (especially subjugated people) to see themselves represented onscreen in all their difference and variety; and for many of these audience members that subjugated identity is a crucially important aspect of themselves; so a GAY character is in fact important.

In conclusion: more queers, please.

Posted by: nigeltde at May 13, 2010 11:24 PM

What a great, thoughtful piece! This is one of the many reasons I still read Pajiba. Thanks for sharing, Dustin.

Posted by: bonnie at May 14, 2010 12:35 AM

"tropes", "heteronormatively", "universally signify and subsequently those markers become reductive", "process of normalisation", "de-othering", ...

come on nigeltde, you can tell us. you have a little sister who beats you up and takes your milk money right?

Posted by: EricD at May 14, 2010 1:31 AM

She used to try, EricD, but when she kicked I'd catch her foot and we'd stagger around like a drunk triffid until we both got tired.

So I think that's one for the win column. *kisses guns*

Posted by: nigeltde at May 14, 2010 1:48 AM

"even when dudes slept overnight on the couch, it never even occurred to me that he was banging them after I fell asleep."

Now that's a childhood I can get behind.

Posted by: The Only New Zealander at May 14, 2010 2:30 AM

1. Captain Jack is not gay. He is played by a gay man, but the character is omni-sexual. In John Barrowman's own words, "the character will stick it in anything with a hole."

2. Two, you can totally play Catholic. I will break it down for you.

-Decide what kind of Catholic you want to play: Irish, Italian, Latin, or Polok. This will be important for the next step.

-Add some ethnic stereotypes to your character depending on the ethnicity you choose but in all cases make such to include heavy drinking and a blue collar/criminal working environment.

-Include at some point in the story an important Catholic ritual such as a child's first communion.

-Finally include back story that involves being tortured by nuns in Catholic school and if you really want to go all in, being molested by the local priest.

And a small dose of guilt and presto, you have just played Catholic. Now how hard was that?

Posted by: Morgan LaFai at May 14, 2010 2:30 AM

Also, I am a tattoo covered, atheist, lesbian so if my aforesaid depiction of Catholicism has inadvertently offended any Catholics out there, rest assured I am already going to hell.

Posted by: Morgan LaFai at May 14, 2010 2:33 AM

Captain Jack? You're serious?

Any scene where John Barrowman attempts to share sexual chemistry with Gwen = comedy gold.

Posted by: Grafty at May 14, 2010 5:49 AM

Um Captain Jack isn't gay--he's omnisexual. Man, woman, alien, robot with an appealing orifice, he'll do it all.

Posted by: Mr. Tusks at May 14, 2010 7:16 AM

Morgan: The dose of guilt is, I assure you, NOT small. Also last night's 30 Rock had some good Catholic playing.

And how has no one mentioned NPH yet? I know Barney Stinson and his Harold and Kumar appearance are basically cartoons, but they guy's gonna be on Ryan Murphy's show next week.

Posted by: Mr. Tusks at May 14, 2010 7:24 AM

OMAR!!!!!!

Good lord, Dustin! When I started reading, I thought, "Well, Omar is number 1. I wonder who else he included?" I am going to assume that Mitchell from Modern Family took his spot. The showtune-loving, sports-hating, figure skating gay man. Meanwhile, Omar was the hardest motherfucker on Earth and possibly the most masculine character in the history of television who just so happened to be gay.

For shame, Dustin. Amend this post now or no one can take you seriously. Seriously.

Posted by: Kballs at May 14, 2010 8:48 AM

"Now that's a childhood I can get behind."

NEVER say that again. Well, unless you like NBC camera crews in your kitchen.

Posted by: Kballs at May 14, 2010 8:55 AM

For reference, I invite everyone to check out Frasier, season 7, episode 15, "Out With Dad", in which Martin is set up with Brian Bedford, a gay man, because he told a woman at the opera he was gay to get out of going out with her.

Martin "gays it up a little", his words, not mine, and hilarity ensues.

Interestingly, the actor playing Niles, David Hyde Pierce, recently came out of the closet. And the actor who plays Bulldog, Dan Butler, has been openly gay for years.

As for stereotypes, I have spent the last 40 years as a community theatre actor and opera singer, and have met many, many, MANY gay men. Their personalities run the gamut of dead butch, to flaming queen.

They are just like "us", it takes all kinds to make an interesting world.

-Ralphie

Posted by: Ralphie at May 14, 2010 10:57 AM

Also, I am a tattoo covered, atheist, lesbian so if my aforesaid depiction of Catholicism has inadvertently offended any Catholics out there, rest assured I am already going to hell.

Morgan LaFai, there was nothing you said to get upset about. That is exactly the way Catholics have been played for at least the last twenty years. Now being pissed at Hollywood, that’s a whole nother thing.

And is it wrong that I got a little turned on reading your description of yourself?

Posted by: EricD at May 14, 2010 11:48 AM

I think people are misinterpreting Sorkin's comment. He's simply saying that "gay" isn't a personality trait, it's not a simple switch that an actor can flip. Sorkin is saying that an actor could play "effeminate" (for example), but not "gay" - that the actor can pick and choose personality traits to create an overall character and persona, one element of which will be that they are attracted to their own sex. Sorkin is just saying that it's a mistake to over-simplify.

On topic, I only gave Modern Family a couple of episodes. I didn't notice Mitchell's defiance of stereotypes, mainly because his partner embraces every single one of them. But they're funny because their so different! Get it?! Ohhhh Modern Family, what a gift you are to sitcoms. Everyone says so. Now where's that sassy latina? I bet she has an amusing one liner to aptly describe the situation. Oh no, here comes the out of touch father who thinks he's cool. Brace yourselves kids, this one's going to be awkward!! Those writers, what cards they are.

Oh, and OMAR, KIMA, RAWLS!

Posted by: Steve at May 14, 2010 12:21 PM

So the pajibans agree that David Fisher was butch? He seemed pretty femme to me. Keith was a seriously macho gay character.

Posted by: Handle at May 14, 2010 2:57 PM

But that's exactly the point, Steve. Of course you can play gay, because what does "gay" look like? Gay looks like same-sex attraction. However an actor plays that they're playing gay, for better or worse. There's a million different ways that could go and still we're stuck with the macho/queen and butch/femme dichotomy, which this list amply demonstrates.

Posted by: nigeltde at May 14, 2010 7:16 PM

The thing is, for years Hollywood had to depict gays as effeminate because it was the only way to get a gay character into a movie. With the motion picture production code in affect an openly gay character could not appear on screen. This meant that Hollywood had to sneak them in by playing into stereotypes.

Now, of course, gays can be openly in film which gives the option for a lot more nuance, but when exactly is modern Hollywood known for its nuanced characters? The stereotypes were created and exploited to get the characters into the films and Hollywood hasn't bothered to reexamine that depiction.

Posted by: Morgan LaFai at May 14, 2010 11:38 PM

Morgan LaFai, that is a great point.

Posted by: EricD at May 15, 2010 12:51 AM

Well Morgan I know what you mean and I know we agree on the fundamentals, although of course those Hays-days coded queers ranged from fabulous showtunes queens to Lorre's Cairo to Montgomery Clift's work to Garbo's Christina and Dietrich's masculinity.

There was definitely variety and I don't want to let Hollywood off. I know that Hollywood can do nuanced characters because I've seen a shitton of wonderful nuanced versions of straight white guy.

I just take strong issue with Sorkin's comment that queerness is this mysterious ephemeral unplayable thing and by agreeing with him and creating this list of good, "anti-sterotype" gays, Rowles -- and god knows I generally love your work Rowles -- is buying into the same trap of pretending that there are legitimate and illegitimate ways of playing -- and by extension being -- gay.

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Posted by: Maryscott O'Connor at May 15, 2010 2:24 AM

nigeltde I completely agree with you. I was just trying to shed the light on the fact that there was a long back story to the current depiction. And for the record, I have seen and loved Garbo's Christina and Dietrich's Mademoiselle Amy Jolly. My point, and it encompasses my earlier comment about playing Catholic, is that Hollywood in general creates caricatures not characters.

The other point that this disucussion has not addressed is what the audience brings to the film, and it had nothing to do with acting ability. I am sure that Angelina Jolie had the acting chops to play a meek, subservient character, but my image of her is a kick-ass, take no shit from no one persona, and that means that I have a hard time accepting her in a meek role. Not all actors can lose themselves in roles and remove themselves from external images that way, say, Daniel Day-Lewis can. That does not mean that gay actors can't play strait, but that the audience needs to mature and accept them as such.

Posted by: Morgan LaFai at May 15, 2010 6:12 AM

I do agree with you, Morgan. Hollywood does find it easier and safer to draw from the "been there" well. I too wish for character instead of caricature.

You know I will say that as I see it there is no star that can divorce their star persona from their roles, no matter how good an actor they are. But that is quibbling on the distinctions between star and celebrity. Especially as these days we all get to see the sausage made in such graphic detail.

We know (and this debate has demonstrated) how subjective believability is. I'm just sick of seeing through SWG's eyes. We need more, more, more queerness and queeriosity, more colours and classes, more manifold humanity.

I mean, it's not unrealistic to ask Hollywood for variety, right?

Posted by: nigeltde at May 15, 2010 7:46 AM

you don't have Cam Clark aka Liquid Snake from metal gear he's Mormon and gay one of the few gays i respect for giving a credible impersonation of Lucifer.

Posted by: Utah Dynamo at May 15, 2010 11:49 AM

Funny anecdote about John Barrowman: he himself is gay, but when he auditioned for the part of Will on Will & Grace, he lost the part because for coming off "too straight". Pretty ironic, considering that the actor who ended up getting the part is straight.

Posted by: CCGirl at May 16, 2010 8:36 PM

Okay, I gotta come to defense of Modern Family. Mitchell just doesn't work as a defiance of stereotypes without Cameron.

The point of their characters is that while Mitchell had the "gay" interests (figure skating, sparkly things), he was fairly conservative in his mannerisms. He often downplays his homosexuality because (thanks to his dad, mostly) he doesn't think people can handle it, while simultaneously being super-sensitive about any reference to his gayness. He is written as a man closeted for a long time, and still not comfortable expressing his sexuality publicly.

Cameron, on the other hand, acts quite flamboyant (as his mother said, he came out of her womb saying "Hellooo!"), he had more "manly", or at least less "gay", interests (football, his country upbringing). He had the support he needed to be comfortable with himself, so he sees no reason to hide who he is. Besides, if anybody says shit about him or his man, Fizbo will beat their ass.

So really, they only work in the "defying stereotypes" sense when they are used together.

And I still think Carter's CMOA on Spin City was when he was going to marry Connie Britton's character in protest of New York's marriage laws (on the show at least), but decided not to when he realized that he was hurting her feelings. Yeah he wanted to make a (needed and eerily prophetic) political point, but not at the expense of his friend.

Posted by: Vermillion at May 19, 2010 9:18 AM

David Fisher wasn't queeny??

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