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Five Great Shows That Started Out Weak

A Seriously Random List LX / Dustin Rowles

Seriously Random Lists | February 27, 2009 | Comments (79)


Earlier this week, I caught a lot of flak from the Whedonites for dissing on “Dollhouse,” after watching only two episodes (it’s all I had to work with, people). Most of Whedon’s most ardent fans plan on sticking it out (as will I, for a while), because both Whedon and Eliza Dushku have promised that the show will eventually find its legs, around Episode Six (presumably, that’s when Dushku is killed off?). If it does, as they promise, find its way at the season midpoint, it won’t be the first show in recent memory to gain its steam after its initial episodes.

There was a time, in fact, when network television had considerably more patience than it does now. When a show had the right ingredients to be a great show, a network was capable of suffering a few weeks (or an entire season) of low ratings to see if the show would eventually take off creatively and find an audience. Here are five of the most notorious examples from recent television history:

5. “The X-Files”: Like “Lost,” which had a considerably better first season, “The X-Files” struggled in the beginning to create its mythology. Monster-of-the-week episodes dominated the first season, as Chris Carter aimed to expand the show’s premise beyond paranormal phenomena. The alternative government plot was poorly fleshed out, and the mystery behind the abduction of Mulder’s sister wasn’t particularly compelling. More importantly, it took several episodes before the kinks in Mulder and Scully’s chemistry would work itself out. Indeed, it wasn’t really until “The X-Files” started introducing tertiary characters that would eventually become series’ regulars before the show really took off, especially in season two. Nevertheless, FOX — which had little else to air on Friday nights at the time — stayed with the show through two seasons of basement ratings before it eventually found a growing audience in season three.

4. “The Office” (US Version): The pilot episode of the American version of “The Office” was dreadful — a half-baked remake of the British version. It was impossible, in fact, in the first few episodes to separate the characters from their British counterpoints, and the American cast stacked up poorly. Fortunately, after two or three episodes, Greg Daniels smartly decided to take the American version in its own direction. It stopped borrowing plotlines from Ricky Gervais’ version and Steve Carrell’s Michael Scott settled in to what he is today, while the Jim and Pam fledgling romance got some legs under it. “The Office,” a midseason replacement when it debuted, had fairly atrocious ratings that first year, but NBC saw enough potential to let it live another season, and now it’s their biggest remaining comedy.


3. “Seinfeld”: The cornerstone for many years of NBC’s “Must Watch” Thursday nights, “Seinfeld” actually started out terrible, like those old Bugs Bunny cartoons. In fact, it debuted as “The Seinfeld Chronicles” and was even bumped from the schedule for a while. Indeed, there’s a reason why the first season is rarely shown in syndication. Kramer’s hair was flat. Both George and Elaine overacted even more than they did in subsequent seasons, and Jerry couldn’t act at all (he had not yet turned that into a positive for the show). The first season felt horribly sit-commy, relying far too heavily on the laugh track. The timing was off, the characters had not yet fallen into their personalities, and the “show about nothing” premise had not yet been fully implemented. It wasn’t until Season Three, even, that the show fully found its legs before transitioning into seasons four through six, arguably the best three-season arc of any sitcom in television history.


2. “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”: I’m not entirely sure if I share the consensus opinion on this, as I came to “Buffy” very late. I also very nearly quit after the first season, and had I been watching it on a week-to-week basis on TV, I’d have never made it further than five or six episodes. It started with that Nerf Herder song, which was, is, and will always be atrocious. The show looked cheap; the production values were shit; and it all very much felt like a generic Lifetime show, only its central character was a vampire slayer. The acting was awful, the writing was clunky, and it was all very embarrassingly campy. Indeed, after having watched subsequent seasons of “Buffy,” if you go back, the first season will likely make you cringe. But, it did set the stage, and eventually, Whedon’s cast matured into their characters and the show mythology took off. Still, the first season exists only to be owned by completists, but never to be watched.


1. “The Wire”: For the many of you who have attempted to watch “The Wire” from the beginning, only to run afoul of accessibility problems, know this: I watched the first four episodes of “The Wire” three times before I could make it to episode five. It wasn’t that they were bad (they were amazing, in retrospect), it’s that it was difficult to tell what was going on. It took a while to adjust to the fact that “The Wire” wasn’t an episodic series, as much as it was 13-hour movies broken down into one-hour increments. In the first four episodes, David Simon laid the foundation for the story, and introduced the characters, although in the moment, it felt like a lot of nothing was going on. In fact, my experience with “The Wire” is why I’m going to stick it out with “Dollhouse.” The latter will never be as good as “The Wire,” but it is reasonable to believe that the first half of the season is merely the exposition to something that could be better. It was, in the case of “The Wire.” It was episode four, in fact, that was the turning point for me. When McNulty and Bunk did a crime scene investigation, and for an entire scene only uttered the word, “Shit,” I was hooked by the brilliant interplay, although it’d take another episode or two before I fully absorbed the narrative.









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Comments

Wasn't it that Bunk & McNutty said derivations of fuck ? not shit.....

Posted by: Alex the not so odd at February 27, 2009 12:06 PM

I completely agree with you regarding The Wire. I thought something was wrong with me because I couldn't get into this show that everybody was raving about.

Posted by: tt_marie at February 27, 2009 12:08 PM

I'd also add The Simpsons. Those initial episodes that revolved around Bart were a great deal more juvenile than the bulk of the show.

Posted by: tt_marie at February 27, 2009 12:11 PM

Do they dub your HBO? Yeah, it was fuck.

I struggled with The Wire until season 4 to be honest, which was amazing. I can see it's brilliant television, it just never did much for me. And I still seriously HATE McNulty and his shoddy shoddy accent.

Posted by: Puddy at February 27, 2009 12:12 PM

I didn't get hooked on the Wire until the shooting near the end of season 1 and then I couldn't stop watching. It was great to see all the weird little character interactions come together and build into something huge.

I don't think Buffy's start was that weak. Of course, I was 13 when I got sucked into Buffy and my TV tastes were not that refined. Although that made me Buffy's target audience when it started.

Posted by: Claire at February 27, 2009 12:12 PM

Wow, you thought the first season of Seinfeld was weak? That's a stretch. Sure, they really came into their own more as the series progressed, but it didn't start our weak at all. When's the last time you watched that first season? Season one had the episode where Jerry has to "break up" with a friend he doesn't like. Classic. First you shit on Green Lantern, now this? Boo, Dustin. Very boo.

Posted by: Mitch Clem at February 27, 2009 12:13 PM

When McNulty and Bunk did a crime scene investigation, and for an entire scene only uttered the word, "Shit," I was hooked by the brilliant interplay

That is EXACTLY the scene that sold me on that show.

Posted by: Julie at February 27, 2009 12:13 PM

I'll agree with you on most of 1st season Buffy being pretty embarassing for a BtVS fan -- to the extent that I never know where to start someone when trying to get them into the show. The exceptions, in my opinion, are the final three episodes: "Nightmares" (good development for all of the show's characters), "Out of Sight, Out of Mind" (a quality Monster-of-the-Week ep), and "Prophecy Girl" (which I think of as pretty much the archetypal Buffy episode).

Posted by: Caro at February 27, 2009 12:16 PM

Wait...so you're saying Eliza Dushku SAVED Buffy?

Also, shut up about Buffy. Buffy rocked from Ep 1, and started to suck the moment they went to college.

Posted by: Kat at February 27, 2009 12:16 PM

I don't care if you people stick it out through Dollhouse, but bare this in mind. Eliza Dushku literally has to suck Seth MacFarlen's dick to even have a career at all.

I'm not entirely sure if Whedon can honestly say she hasn't done the same for him.

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Posted by: justin at February 27, 2009 12:20 PM

I'd like to put Stargate and Star Trek: DS9 on that list. (Yes, I went there.)

Stargate in the first two seasons had the same problems as Buffy. Cheap production value, bad acting, worse storywriting. Then they went and recruited Peter DeLuise (you know, the big one from 21 Jump Street) as creative consultant and part time director. From that point on, the writing got tremendously better and funnier. The actors didn't squeak anymore when they turned around, due to their characteres getting more personality. The show still wasn't top-notch, but it was a lot of fun to watch.

DS9 had the problem that they sought to copy the concept of TNG and TOS, as in one- or two-episode-stories. That didn't work out well because they had to deal with a space station that didn't move. Also, it didn't let the characters much room to develop. When they introduced an overarching storyline (and a ship), all that changed. And thankfully so, because they hired much more capable actors than in TNG. It's still the best Trek show out there.

Posted by: FabMax at February 27, 2009 12:24 PM

i'm totally with Mitch Clem on this. the first two seasons of Seinfeld were classic, and not just in the literal sense that are old. those two seasons definitely contain some of favourite episodes, such as "Male Unbonding" (mentioned above, and interestingly the only Seinfeld episode not named 'The [something]') and "The Chinese Restaurant", not to mention "The Deal" and "The Revenge". i realize that those last three i named are from season two, and your beef is mainly with season one, but to be fair the first season is only four episodes. my point is that i think Seinfled found its legs pretty much after the pilot episode.

Posted by: mex at February 27, 2009 12:24 PM

Amen to the inclusion of Seinfeld! I actually watched it from the begining, out of boredom, and one day it became funny.

I actually liked the X-Files, BTVS and The Wire from episode one.

I can't think of any other 'great' shows at the moment, but I thought How I Met Your Mother started off slow. I really wanted to like it, but I felt that something was missing at first. Maybe it just took time for the actors to develop the right chemistry or something.

Posted by: Aslana at February 27, 2009 12:26 PM

Sorry, bubba, but Buffy came out strong (I was there) it was witty and balanced with passable special effects (for its time). THEN, after around the third season it became UNBEARABLE, Buffy started channeling SMG's inner cunt, Xander started douching-out and on and on... bleh.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at February 27, 2009 12:28 PM

I want to add: Buffy still sucked ass in the end. Sure, production quality got better, but that didn't make up for the abysmal actors (Gellar isn't much better than Dushku) and the inept writers. (Save for 'Hush'. That was fantastic.).

The only good tv-show Whedon ever made was Firefly.

Posted by: FabMax at February 27, 2009 12:28 PM

So, so true about The Office. I loved the British version, so when I heard about an American version, I plugged my ears and ran back to my British DVDs. After a year I caught one of the first couple episodes and felt completely justified in my prejudices. Every second line was directly lifted from the original. Awful.

Posted by: Sabrina at February 27, 2009 12:30 PM

Also, the first season of Buffy is the only one I own, and I just rewatched the whole thing. Not that bad, but there were some lines that were so cheesy I flinched.

Posted by: Sabrina at February 27, 2009 12:40 PM

DS9 was weak in its its first season, but we knew it was ON when Sisko came back with a bald head and goatee (GO HAWK!) at the start of season 2.

Fanboy love, however, is the ONLY reason TNG survived its first season. "Encounter at Farpoint" should have killed it, it was so dull.

Posted by: Meander at February 27, 2009 12:40 PM

I'm probably one of the few people who liked Seinfeld from the beginning. It took me forever to get people I knew watching. I don't think it started out weak, rather it took a while for people to get it.

...but bare this in mind.

Pun intended?

Posted by: Cindy at February 27, 2009 12:40 PM

I was hooked on "The Wire" from the first episode.

I didn't start watching Buffy until Season 2, but I think the first episode is great. The show definitely had some rough edges in the begining, but it was not a weak start. At all.

Buffy did go south a bit at the end. The last 3 seasons, other than the occassional episode here and there, weren't great. Seasons 1-4 were fantastic.

The Office didn't hit its stride until it broke free from the English version. The English version is fantastic, but almost a joke-for-joke copy wasn't the way to go. I guess I would agree with that.

I don't remember the early X-Files episodes all that well.

DS9 really didn't get awesome until Worf showed up and that whole Dominion thing.

STnG was also awful in the first season. Just... awful. It really didn't get good until Season 3 or so. That show hasn't aged well.

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at February 27, 2009 12:41 PM

...the first season exists only to be owned by completists, but never to be watched.

I'll disagree on this point (though not necessarily the rest). Each time I watch the series, I start with 1.1 and watch every single episode through 7.22. I like to think of the first season as being a lot like the teenage years... you're not quite sure what to wear, how to talk, how to fit in, so you try some stuff out before you figure out how you're comfortable. Of course, I do warn people who've never watched it before that they have to stick with it for the first season, because it does get really, really good after that.

The problem is this: look at a show that starts out really strong, like Lost. That first season had me on the edge of my seat every single week. Season 2 came around, and I expected more of the same; it was still good (at least the first half), but not as good as the previous. Season 3? Sucked moose balls. Season 3 may as well not exist at all. They took everything that was good about the show and ground it into the dirt. It became a caricature of itself. Sure, it had some good moments (Sawyer figuring out how to get a fish biscuit? Priceless), but overall, it almost ended me on the show altogether. I guess my point is, when a show starts super strong, the only place it has to go is down.

P.s. Apparently, episode 13 of the current season is titled "Some Like It Hoth". I am probably more amused by this than I should be.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverplatz at February 27, 2009 12:44 PM

I'm probably one of the few people who liked Seinfeld from the beginning. It took me forever to get people I knew watching.

I loved the show from the first episode I ever saw. It was the one where Elain made the Pony Remark. According to wikipedia that was the second episode of Season 2.

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at February 27, 2009 12:45 PM

IMO, Buffy started ridiculously strong. I remember watching the first episode and being blown away by the dialogue, then reading in the paper next morning about how 'there was some stupid show based off the movie about the ditzy blonde cheerleeding vampire slayer' and it was around that time I realized there are people who get paid to have no thoughts.

Also, Joss Whedon taught me something about extended story arcs - that is, keep track of a minor character and bring him back after a three-season hiatus and impress the shit out of me.

I started losing interest around the time Willow went evil, although I don't think he wrote any of those eps.

Angel on the other hand was a slow starter with maybe the most impressive last couple seasons ever.

Posted by: twig at February 27, 2009 12:48 PM

Season 3? Sucked moose balls. Season 3 may as well not exist at all. They took everything that was good about the show and ground it into the dirt.

I actually stopped watching the show halfway through Season 3. There are about 3-4 episodes that I've never seen. I thought it rebounded pretty nicely there at the end. The last 4-6 episodes, or so, of Season 3 were pretty solid and got things back on the right track. Wasn't the final episode of Season 3 the first "Flash Forward" ep? That was super sweet.

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at February 27, 2009 12:48 PM

I hung in there, Forbiddendonut, though I was very close to giving up. It definitely did start to get reasonably decent again towards the end of S3. S4 was much better, and the current season is making me glad I held on. S5 has had me on the edge of my seat for most of the eps so far, much as it did in S1. So, yay! I guess it was really a season's worth of episodes from the last 4-6 of S2 through that same point in S3 that sucked.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverplatz at February 27, 2009 12:52 PM

While I don't agree that the acting and writing was as bad as all that in Buffy Season 1, I do agree that it's the only season I don't ever go back and watch. Even Season 4, the god awful Riley year, has some fantastic moments in them, Hush and the finale specifically.

I'm nothing if not a Whedon apologist, but yeah, Buffy Season 1 is really only worth seeing the once.

Especially when compared to Season 2. Ye gads!

Posted by: Red Beard at February 27, 2009 12:53 PM

If any of you watched it from the beginning, Sex and the City started out SUPERweak from episode 1. But then it found its focus, found its characters, and found its legs, capped off in beautiful Manolo Blahniks.

Posted by: The Pink Hulk at February 27, 2009 12:53 PM

I really love Buffy season 4. I hated Adam as the villain subplot, and Riley had the appeal of a piece of unbuttered toast, but I thought there were some great episodes in there. I loved:

"Hush"-classic
"Something Blue"-makes me laugh my ass off. "So the plan is to cure my debilitating blindness TOMORROW, is it?"
"Living Conditions"-Buffy with her roommate was glorious.
"Fear Itself"-was funny and really built on the characters' weaknesses. Plus, Oz as God is a win.
"Pangs"-the Thanksgiving episode, with the funny syphillis.
"A New Man"-I love anything that showcases Anthony Head, and the moment when he chases Professor Walsh when he's the demon still makes me cackle.
The Buffy/Faith body switching arc was fun, and I even liked the episode that had Jonathan as the hero.

Posted by: Julie at February 27, 2009 1:06 PM

I was gonna fight you about the Office, but then I remembered that I only got into it about halfway through the second season (I think the first episode I watched was 'The Injury', which is hands down the best episode of that show) and by that time it had hit its stride. I very rarely start watching a show from the beginning and stick all the way through. The only show I've ever done that with is Lost, which hooks you right from the start.

The thing with Dollhouse is that it NEEDED to grab people from the start. It has a lousy premise, a bad schedule and a desperate need to get viewers, and a bad start was a very big mistake. At this rate, it won't last long, so why give it more than two episodes? I don't care if it makes me flakey, I thought it was a horrible start and I don't care enough to give it another chance.

And besides, for all his experience with "good" shows, shouldn't Whedon know better than to not start it off with a bang?

Posted by: figgy at February 27, 2009 1:21 PM

"Living Conditions"-Buffy with her roommate was glorious.

That's the Cher-listening demon roommate, yes? I loved waiting for Buffy to finally lose her shit in that ep. So much fun.

Posted by: twig at February 27, 2009 1:22 PM

"Even Season 4, the god awful Riley year, ..."

Posted by: Red Beard at February 27, 2009 12:53 PM


OH my GOD! I had totally blocked that out, that was a Quintessential "jump the shark" moment, RIGHT THERE!

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at February 27, 2009 1:26 PM

tt_marie beat me to it, but yes, The Simpsons is a shining example for me.

And I see some are disagreeing with Dustin, but I absolutely agree about Seinfeld. The first season has not aged well.

Posted by: Eep at February 27, 2009 1:29 PM

I think I'm in the same situation with "The Wire" that you were with "Buffy," Dustin. I'm on season 2 now, but I was blown away from the first episode in. Maybe it was all the things I'd heard going into it, but for me, it's been outstanding for every minute.

Posted by: Sean at February 27, 2009 1:29 PM

I don't agree with the statement that X-Files started weak. Season 1 was hit or miss like the rest of them (and make no mistake - every season of that show had some serious clunkers). Granted, it's not stronger than several of the subsequent seasons on a percentage basis, but if by starting "weak" you simply mean the show improved, then I'll concede the point with the observation that almost all shows improve to some degree given an opportunity to hit their strides.

Right out of the gate the first four episodes (Pilot, Deep Throat, Squeeze, and Conduit) were very solid, draw you right into the conceit, and do a great job of establishing Scully's and Mulder's dynamic. Plus, you say monster-of-the-week like it's a bad thing. I found the mythology compelling, but the stand-alones were almost as reliable, particularly in the first several seasons. Add "Ice," "Eve," "Beyond The Sea," and "E.B.E." to the mix, and season one comes off as being very respectable.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 27, 2009 1:30 PM

[F]or all his experience with "good" shows, shouldn't Whedon know better than to not start it off with a bang?

What Whedon should know is not to put his shows on Fox - but I don't think he's ever figured out how to start a series with a bang. I recently rewatched S1 of Buffy, and yeah, if that's where I had started watching, I probably wouldn't have given it much of a chance. I can't believe no one has commented on how ATROCIOUS David Boreanaz was in the early days of Buffy! Sooooo bad, I always giggle through his every line delivery.

I remember being REALLY disappointed with the first two or three episodes of "Firefly" (first to air, that is) - I thought Book was completely useless, Mal's heart of gold - to say nothing of Inara's - annoyed the hell out of me, and the whole literal "Western" aspect of it (there were horses EVERYWHERE!) drove me to distraction. But a few episodes in, it all clicked and I loved it and I will hate Fox forever for canceling it.

That experience right there is why I'm giving Dollhouse a chance (and why I fear Fox will fuck me over yet again). I haven't hated it yet (Kellerman! Helo!), actually, and I can see the seeds of something great, and Whedon may not have learned how to start his stories, but he sure as hell knows how to tell them over time.

Posted by: Edith at February 27, 2009 1:34 PM

Also, you folks who think that season 3 of Lost sucked utterly perplex me.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 27, 2009 1:35 PM

I am one of those people who had never seen the UK version of "The Office" prior to giving the US version a shot. I didn't know that the first episode lifted most of its lines from the British version, and the episode holds up just fine for me. In fact the entire season, while it was definitely a different flavor than what we would get in subsequent seasons (that flavor being an ever-increasing dose of saccharine), was more true to the concept's premise and in that respect I hold it in higher regard than the last 2 seasons. Unlike Seinfeld, where you watch those first 2 season reruns kind of like an anthropologist, I watch Season 1 of The Office to remember what the show once stood for.

Posted by: Matches at February 27, 2009 1:39 PM

OH my GOD! I had totally blocked that out, that was a Quintessential "jump the shark" moment, RIGHT THERE!

You are incorrect, Mr. Slim. That wasn't even Buffy's "jump the shark" moment.

If anything, Buffy's "jump the shark" moment was when Dawn was introduced (beginning of Season 5).

Buffy was still soundly on the right side of the shark throughout Season 4.

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at February 27, 2009 2:03 PM

I have always felt it takes til season 3 of any good show to really find it's stride. The first season is almost always weighed down by "drama" and "excitement" and all that boring shit that execs think we want to watch. It's only when writer's/actors/directors have shaken off all the impositions and expectations and really start gelling that things start to take off. One can only hope that the first two seasons are at least bearable.

Anna von Beaverplatz nailed it, I think with the first season as being a lot like the teenage years.. We only really get cool when we become seniors.

Posted by: Odnon at February 27, 2009 2:04 PM

Sorry, Anna I got the italics for your quote mixed up with what I was saying. My first lame attempts at html. Yes, I'm a rookie at this...

Posted by: Odnon at February 27, 2009 2:06 PM

I think I need to rewatch the third season of "lost". I remember it being a huge mess with lots of filler and no coherence, and I hated it so much that I almost gave up on the show entirely, missing a few episodes but watching the end of the season with some hope. I think though, that the main thing that made me so angry with it was the ridiculous scheduling ABC played around with, with the long hiatuses that only made bad episodes seem useless. And that was the peak of that 'they don't know what the hell they're doing' streak where a lot of people were about to give up on it.

Maybe it'd be better to watch it all in one go, as some friends of mine have done. They haven't hated the 3rd season at all.

Posted by: figgy at February 27, 2009 2:18 PM

Also, you folks who think that season 3 of Lost sucked utterly perplex me.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at February 27, 2009 1:35 PM

Season 3 definitely did not suck, though the episodes before Christmas certainly did (the part where Sawyer and Kate are caged by the Others). After that weak start the stories got better and better until by the last 6 or so episodes it was at the top of its game. Ignoring season boundaries, I believe the last 6 episodes of 3 and the first 14 or so of season 4 may have been the greatest stretch of the show.

Posted by: ed newman at February 27, 2009 2:22 PM

Whedon makes TV shows like he makes pancakes. You have to throw out the first few because they're half baked.

I just about gave up on Firefly (on DVD so at least I saw the episodes in the right order). A friend told me to stick with it until Jayne's Town, and he was right. I loved it after that.

Posted by: BWeaves (from a different IP address) at February 27, 2009 2:24 PM

I'd have to agree that for the first season of Buffy, a disclaimer for cheesiness should be used for new viewers. It's not that it was that horrible, but the show got so much better as soon as season 2 hit.

That being said, it seems that Joss decided that he would kill the show's sense of fun and replace it with Dawn starting in season 5. I blame her for the consequent downward spiral of the last 3 seasons. I still can't get through season 7 without yelling at Buffy for her many, many pointless speeches and self-righteousness.

Posted by: Marabbas at February 27, 2009 2:27 PM

I've gotta echo (hey, see what I did there? Dollhouse...Echo...um...nevermind) the opinion on Seinfeld's first season (sorry, Mitch). I am an ardent, die hard fan of that show, but season one (which is thankfully only five episodes) is slow, the actors seem to have no chemistry and jokes fall flat most of the time (even in the "Male Unbonding" episode. God does that one ever suck!). The show didn't really find its groove until midway through season two, when they did the show at the Chinese restaurant. After that they started finding the show's voice then hitting it out of the park for pretty much the remainder of the series' history (sorry, Dustin, I like seasons 8 and 9, even without Larry David).

As to Buffy, well, I've yet to make it past the two part pilot. Hot damn it's an awful show at that point! I keep hearing that it's going to get better, but I may just skip season one entirely. ugh!

Now, I need to go rent me The Wire. I am ashamed to say that I was never able to catch that show when it was on the air.

Posted by: Armando at February 27, 2009 2:31 PM

I've gotta echo (hey, see what I did there? Dollhouse...Echo...um...nevermind) the opinion on Seinfeld's first season (sorry, Mitch). I am an ardent, die hard fan of that show, but season one (which is thankfully only five episodes) is slow, the actors seem to have no chemistry and jokes fall flat most of the time (even in the "Male Unbonding" episode. God does that one ever suck!). The show didn't really find its groove until midway through season two, when they did the show at the Chinese restaurant. After that they started finding the show's voice then hitting it out of the park for pretty much the remainder of the series' history (sorry, Dustin, I like seasons 8 and 9, even without Larry David).

As to Buffy, well, I've yet to make it past the two part pilot. Hot damn it's an awful show at that point! I keep hearing that it's going to get better, but I may just skip season one entirely. ugh!

Now, I need to go rent me The Wire. I am ashamed to say that I was never able to catch that show when it was on the air.

Posted by: Armando at February 27, 2009 2:31 PM

And when I said We only really get cool when we become seniors, I meant High School Seniors, not Senior Citizens. Although, I see in Pajiba Love that Elizabeth Taylor just turned 77.......

Posted by: Odnon at February 27, 2009 2:51 PM

Armando, you should probably skip ahead to season 2 if Buffy's pilot bothers you - but even if you decide to tough out S1, do yourself a favor and skip "Teacher's Pet." you'll abandon all hope if you watch that one before deciding you really love Buffy...

Posted by: Edith at February 27, 2009 2:52 PM

Armando, you should probably skip ahead to season 2 if Buffy's pilot bothers you - but even if you decide to tough out S1, do yourself a favor and skip "Teacher's Pet." you'll abandon all hope if you watch that one before deciding you really love Buffy...

Posted by: Edith at February 27, 2009 2:54 PM

Gotta agree with Forbiddendonut (purple is a fruit, right?) on S4 of Buffy. As I believe I've mentioned previously, I originally found it boring (Riley = zzzzz). However, upon repeat viewings, I have come to believe that in actuality, it is probably the best season (toss-up with S3), not only for some of the best stand-alone episodes to come out of television, but the over-arcing story is really good and in keeping with the rest of the series.

Edith, I think a few people have mentioned in various threads how very very silly Boreanaz was in the earliest episodes. I love watching the series from beginning to end and watching Angel as well, because you can actually see him improve over the course of it all, and now to see him on Bones at the best he's ever been. But, he was so so pretty those early ones.... mmmmm Angel.

Armando, there are some good and fun eps in Season 1.. "Witch" is a good one, "Never Kill a Boy...", "The Pack", "The Puppet Show". At the very least you have to watch "Prophecy Girl" (the season finale). And I'll agree with Edith... you should probably skip "Teacher's Pet". I kind of tune it out a bit. Though there are some pretty good lines it there.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverplatz at February 27, 2009 3:47 PM

30 Rock actually took me about five episodes to get used to. I thought it was corny and kinda dumb when I first watched it, and then a light went on in my brain and I stopped trying to watch it like a regular sitcom, and it became the funniest show on TV.

Posted by: Lucas at February 27, 2009 4:16 PM

I'm sure this is a minority opinion but "Kath & Kim" has gotten a hell of a lot better then the atrocious early episodes which I used to skip entirely. I have no idea what the Australian show was like but I would put the US version as a latter day "Seinfeld". Clueless somewhat unlikable characters doing bizarre self-involved things. Molly Shannon and Selma Blair have their characters down now, and John Micheal Higgins and the guy that plays Chad can always be counted on for some solid lines. I'm laughing more at it than I have "The Office" and the foundering "My Name is Earl" this season.

Also, I can't believe with all the 30 Rock love on Pajiba that no one has mentioned the confession scene last week when Alec Baldwin said "I once said 'I am God.' during a deposition." That's some brilliant in-joke humor there.

Posted by: TylerDFC at February 27, 2009 4:44 PM

I would add "Cheers." That was a show that debuted last, or nearly last, in the ratings, and NBC actually gave the show a chance to get its balance and rhythm, and for its audience to find it.

Posted by: rlr260 at February 27, 2009 5:01 PM

What about According to Jim? Naah, that was a festering boil on Satan's ass from the beginning. I was at a seance and the ghost of an old business partner I was trying to contact to get the last piece of a treasure map he hid from me before his death told me that the TV's in hell only show According to Jim, Tyra and House of Payne. He also said the movie theaters only play Tyler Perry movies, in accordance with his deal with the Devil, who also owns 15% of TBS.

So, you better be good out there people....

Posted by: Rubble44 at February 27, 2009 5:40 PM

rlr260
Cheers may have been low-rated, but it was never weak in the acting, the writing, or the funny. It became a huge hit when NBC stuck The Cosby Show in front of it.

And I'm in the "Buffy didn't start weak, it just got better" camp. A show on a new netlet with no budget has chintzy special effects? Let me get to the fainting couch. The pieces were already in place. I still watch seasons 1-3 (all of them) regularly and I still enjoy most of S1. Later seasons, yeah, they were crap (seasons 6 & 7, I'm looking at you), but the "Buffy started out clunky" revisionism (which I suspect is used by Whedonite brownshirts try and convince themselves that Dollhouse will get good) is balderdash.

Posted by: alone in the dark at February 27, 2009 5:54 PM

I struggled through season one of "The Office" due to my overwhelming hatred for Michael Scott v1.0.
I don't know if the season 2 overhaul of the character was to get away from the British version, or whether they thought he needed to be more likeable, but I stopped wanting to smash his face. I don't think I would have continued watching if he'd stayed the way he was.

Seasons 2-onward have been pure fucking joy.

Posted by: Lauren at February 27, 2009 5:58 PM

Isn't asking audiences to wait six weeks for a show to come good a little presumptuous when your last show got canned after that many eps? I know Whedonites are a patient and loyal bunch, but how many shows get granted that much slack?

Posted by: Dave Shepherd at February 27, 2009 6:16 PM

I know that it might be a stretch, how about Conan O'Brien's late night show?

Posted by: richmac at February 27, 2009 7:18 PM

hearing you say that about 'The Office' makes sense, actually. Because after 2 episodes it was cancelled here (Australia), but then I heard that perfectly intelligent people, like pajibans and a few of my friends (sadly, not all of my friends are intelligent) actually like it. Which never made sense, because U.S remakes of U.K shows wlmost never work. So I guess taking the show and changing it saved it, but not before most Aussies decided not to watch it....

Posted by: rach at February 27, 2009 7:45 PM

Agreed with all of the shows you mentioned.

I originally watched the pilot for the Office, it was so bad that I didn't watch again until half-way through the second season, and then only b/c my bf begged me.

Buffy first season does suck. Season 2 is good, but I think that the absolute best of the series was season 4 and 5. The sixth season is outstanding until the epi Smashed. The show was literally wrecked in the next episode, ironically titled "Wrecked."

Excuse me for a second, Spike and Buffy 4eva!

Posted by: Mebe at February 27, 2009 8:23 PM

The first season of Buffy was slow, yet I think they almost killed the whole series with the Adam and Riley crap later on. Same with Angel, got much better when Wesley came in, and the Wolfram and Hart shit hit the fan. The first season of Angel was wishy washy with the Irish demon/future seer.

Other slow starters:
Stargate:SG1
Cheers
A-team

Posted by: o.k. corral at February 27, 2009 9:24 PM

I think Battlestar Galactica is the exact opposite. It started impossibly strong and never stopped being at least great. It's got a much, much different hurdle than The Wire to get a larger audience, but you learn to stop minding.

It's a show consider one of the best ever on television, who's biggest mistake was using its 'remake' status as a way to bring the geeks in and make all the money they chucked for it worth it, but it also chained it to one of the most unattractive show names since Seinfeld.

How do you sell goddamn 'Battlestar Galactica' to the normal crowd?


It's a show for anyone who's down with social politics, damn near Shakespearean drama and really great characters. Sincerely there isn't a character on the show the show that doesn't stay with you, and even the ones that start weak always redeem.


------If you've been a fan this last half a season has been the greatest secret on television. There's 3 episodes left in the series and when they don't win Emmy's for acting, direction, writing, ensemble cast and best drama (But do get on AFI's Top 10 again as well as TIME's best drama), I won't even care. I'll just be satisfied.

Posted by: Paterick at February 28, 2009 5:02 AM

I think Battlestar Galactica is the exact opposite. It started impossibly strong and never stopped being at least great. It's got a much, much different hurdle than The Wire to get a larger audience, but you learn to stop minding.

It's a show consider one of the best ever on television, who's biggest mistake was using its 'remake' status as a way to bring the geeks in and make all the money they chucked for it worth it, but it also chained it to one of the most unattractive show names since Seinfeld.

How do you sell goddamn 'Battlestar Galactica' to the normal crowd?


It's a show for anyone who's down with social politics, damn near Shakespearean drama and really great characters. Sincerely there isn't a character on the show the show that doesn't stay with you, and even the ones that start weak always redeem.


------If you've been a fan this last half a season has been the greatest secret on television. There's 3 episodes left in the series and when they don't win Emmy's for acting, direction, writing, ensemble cast and best drama (But do get on AFI's Top 10 again as well as TIME's best drama), I won't even care. I'll just be satisfied.

I'm a 20 year old black guy who loves the Boondocks and Lost. This show is my shit.

Posted by: Paterick at February 28, 2009 5:03 AM

The first season of The X-Files contains Squeeze, which is one of the best episodes ever. Along with Beyond The Sea and Fallen Angel, both great. So, I don't have that big a problem with the season as a whole. (Although, granted, Gender Bender is one of the worst pieces of television ever.)

As for Buffy, yes, cheap-looking. But badly-acted? What about the funny? For me, it peaked with Season Two. The rest is middling, Me So Grown Up! angsting, with any fun drowned in arc plots either stupid (Gloria) or ridiculous (The First. Oh no, the invisible intangible monster is going to talk to you! Run!). So, points for the first season, for not being as horribly bad as the last one.

Posted by: Grafty at February 28, 2009 6:19 AM

I liked Buffy Season 1...a few clunky monster-of-the-week eps, sure, but the mythology was strong and the writing sharpened as the season wore on. Nothing great but not terrible by any means.

I didn't start actively disliking the show until Season 6, and Season 7 was dreadful: Slayerettes, Nathan Fillion shoehorned in toward the end as a lame villian, that annoying Kennedy chick, a superweapon that looks like it should be one of CC DeVille's guitars, and so on. What a shitstorm that was.

Posted by: stryker1121 at February 28, 2009 1:49 PM

Prophesy Girl is my fave Buffy episode. I just really felt how left out Buffy felt and he overhear Angel and Giles? Good stuff. But why do you speak of seven seasons? The show ended after five. No, it did end after five. I SAID FIVE!

And hey, who woulda thunk that David Boreanas (sp) could be a decent actor, huh? He's way better on Bones then he was on Buffy or what little I saw of Angel.

Posted by: TWoP Fan at February 28, 2009 2:04 PM

god, i love whedonistes. capable of making anybody pay for insulting one of their beloved series'. I love buffy, but yeah, season one was mediocre until ep 7, Angel. saying the show gets good on episode 6 is actually an improvement, technically.

Posted by: chayes at February 28, 2009 2:55 PM

"Babylon 5" was a great show that started out weak. It might not be called "great" because it didn't get the ratings it deserved, but it will always be great in my book. How many other shows have decided that the main character was terrible and shoved him off with almost nary a backwards glance after a season? And the vision ... to map out five years of a show and what it would be, and then to actually get to run it the full five years ... It was epic like only two other shows that I can think of--"V" and "Avatar: The Last Airbender." Can anybody think of any other "epic" shows?

Posted by: Betty at February 28, 2009 11:39 PM

I got the complete Buffy boxset for Christmas so I've been doing a lot of re-watching lately, and I really don't think season 1 was a hugely weak start to a show. I'm not a rabid Whedonite - Angel took over a season to find itself, and Firefly was shaky for the first few episodes (Bushwhacked is awesome, but after that the run of good, solid episodes doesn't start until Jaynestown). But Buffy started strong, got brilliant, then got absolutely terrible by the end. The only episode I've rewatched from the last 3 seasons is "Selfless", because I adore Anya, but I've rewatched most of season 1 and I find it holds up pretty well.

Posted by: Shay at March 1, 2009 11:42 AM

OOOOH a buffy-heavy thread- I love it.

My two cents: Season one was cheesy as hell and yes, the acting was kinda bad. But some of the plotlines were amazing and I always found myself rooting for the characters. I hated Riley (that man is a black of wood), hated the Matrixy effects of Season 4 finale (though it came before the matrix yea I know). Generally I hated it when she went to college, and I think Dawn is the single most annoying character I have ever encountered. But the crazy thing is, I don't know if any of it was wrong to do because... well, i still love the show.

dislike Spike and Buffy though. The only man she will ever love is Angel and that's it.

Posted by: dene at March 1, 2009 2:04 PM

I wonder if you could do some sort of a personality assessment on People Who Like Season 6 versus People Who Don't.

I liked it: didn't LOVE it but definitely liked it. I think Spike is a fascinating multi-threaded character, and he was incredibly well acted.

Maybe you have to have been in a "purely sexual" relationship to appreciate Season 6? Or maybe you have to sort of like the naughty boys? (I always thought Evil Angel was way more sexy and appealing than Soulful Angel).

As for Dawn: she was indeed gawd-awful: the actress was (is?) terrible. You can see how immature and frankly unintelligent the the actress was in the Bonus material on the DVDs: downright embarrassing.

Posted by: Neon at March 1, 2009 3:06 PM

Seriously though, it was fuck. Did you even watch that program at all?

Posted by: Will at March 1, 2009 3:36 PM

Babylon 5.

Godawful first season, but the story arc picked up after it. Even with network fuckery still managed a blinding final season.

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Posted by: unname at March 2, 2009 2:44 AM

Add me to the chorus that is championing Buffy's first season, it was great from the start. Then season 2 was its best, and then every season long arc from then on started to suck a little more (though every season had some great stand alone episodes).

Posted by: Chris at March 2, 2009 7:51 AM

Buffy 1-3 and 5 are my choice for the best.
However, Season 4 Buffy did have my favourite line in it though (delivered by Riley no less!)

"I never thought I would have to know the plural of apocalypse.", probably the only time that wooden delivery could sell a line.

Posted by: Adam C at March 2, 2009 8:21 AM

What IS the plural of apocalypse?

Apocalypsi?
Apocalypses?
Apocalypsees?

Posted by: Stella at March 3, 2009 10:21 AM

I'm gonna be honest, I've never found Seinfeld that funny. Friends have tried to force it on me, and I generally find it a fairly bland comedy. In my opinion, the three seasons of Arrested Development were funnier than the entire run of Seinfeld.

And I agree with you totally about Buffy. While I did like the end of the first season, as it provided some interesting plot twists, the second season was where the show really picked up, and then it ran with it from there. I think it was the implementation of some really great villains that did it. The Master was not a particularly well-written villain character. Every other villain on the show was vastly more interesting.

Posted by: ChristianH at April 14, 2009 11:47 AM