Pajiba

Thank you.

EXACTLY.

Dr. Pisaster,

I have to ask . . . where the hell do you live?

~W

I purposefully stayed away from the original I Spit on Your Grave post, because, frankly, I've had my fill of cinematic rape scenes. It's a subject, as you say, that's living and breathing in the now, and so it shouldn't be ignored. But, Irreversible was enough. Can't unwatch that.

Also, I have to say, I find it odd that so many women still have stories about cat-calls and the like. In my personal experience, nobody I know does this. I've never done it. I won't deny that I check out attractive women when I see them, but that shoe fits on both feet. And, some desires, like a lot of thoughts, really shouldn't be shared in the light of day.

Just yesterday, a guy at work who I hadn't seen since the office move asked me about the "situation" on my floor. I paused because I didn't know what he meant, and then he clarified, "You know, the chicks. What's it like down there?" Now knowing what he meant, I still didn't know how to respond. So, I just shrugged and said, "It's all right, I guess." I wanted to tell him that he was a creep and the damn office lobby wasn't the place to bring that kind of crap up. But, the pressure for men to go along with this, especially in a setting with several guys, is incredibly hard to ignore. I try to stay quiet during these types of situations, mostly because I'm nearly 30 and don't need to get my ass kicked. But, yeah, silence isn't always golden.

One last thing, just out of curiosity, how does one jibe the idea that women (or, men, right?) are more than just sexual objects with things like the Pajiba 10? Not trying to start a thing, really just interested in your perspective.

Wakeful, I do agree (though frankly having weapons on you often just means you get a weapon used against you - at least, so says my self-defense teacher), but think of how much it sucks to know all the time that if you aren't armed, you are in danger.

Think about never feeling like you can relax if you are alone, never feeling comfortable, knowing you must maintain Constant Vigilance. Then think about the further implications - if you let your guard down, if you leave without your pepper spray, if you deign to wear something other than a buffalo robe, suddenly you are to blame if something happens.

That insidious little blame game our culture engages in; that constant question "What did she do to bring this on herself?" She dressed like a slut, she asked for it, she shouldn't have been on that street so late. Think about how it feels to know that as a culture, because we EXPECT men to be predatory, all responsibility falls on the woman to not make herself a target. We, as a culture, don't EXPECT men to be able to control their impulses (even though most men I've known don't exhibit any predatory impulses). So we, mostly subconsciously, expect that if a woman was raped, she did something to deserve it.

How fucked up is that? That's what it feels like for a woman in this world.

Every time I go out I look over what I'm wearing to make sure it's not too revealing. If I catch a guy staring at me I'll whip out my phone in hopes that he'll think I'm busy and won't approach me. If he does approach me I try to not be too friendly so he doesn't get the wrong idea. I've had men follow me, cat call me, approach me in public and demand to know my name, where I'm from, my phone number, etc. since I was 13. If I'm someplace unfamiliar I always know where the exits are, I always know where my friends are, and I always have one hand on my phone.

Men, understand that the guys who do these things make the lives of you who don't harder. I'm less likely to talk to a guy who starts a conversation with me in a bar because I don't know if he's a stalker. I'm less likely to let someone buy me a drink because some asshole thinks that means I owe them something. I'm less likely to take a chance on you because taking that chance got someone else hurt or killed.

This is everyone's problem.

I love this.

Rape is often treated so casually in film. I remember being at a friend's house several years ago, watching "Immortal Beloved." There's a very graphic scene with no prelude or warning, where a woman is raped by multiple people and then has her throat slashed. I had to leave the house and go sit in my car and cry.

The scene didn't even advance the plot, although it did give some background on a minor character.

I know a lot of people who think rape jokes are funny. I'm blessed with a rather salty sense of humor, but... rape isn't funny to me. Nope.

And shame on the marketing team who put this poster together, and anyone who wants to sensationalize sexual assault, or use it as a plot device. Ugh.

Tammy, I think that's true (carrying a weapon means getting it used against you) only when the person carrying it is unwilling to use it. If you have a gun on you, you have to be able to shoot an asshole for looking at you the wrong way. Having it just to look tough is a really good way to get shot, so for the love of God leave it at home.

As for the rest of your comment, I of course agree, but I don't really know what to say besides the world is fucked up and I just need to rule it.

An incredibly powerful piece, Doctor. And one I agree with in every possible way.

As I was reading I couldn't help but flash back to Honduras, and how just about every time I'd be walking alone somewhere and I'd see a group of men standing around, I'd cringe inwardly in fear. And God, how I HATED that I was afraid. And even though I told myself that these could be perfectly harmless men, I'd encountered enough men who were not so harmless that I was now afraid of walking down the street. And knowing that I lived in a country where women's rights are nothing but a joke made me even angrier.

I remember a couple of years ago when I started my first job. I had to walk about 10 minutes to get from the office to the bus station. It was in a nice area, a nice road, with several other office buildings. In front of one of them there was always this security guard looking at the door. EVERY SINGLE DAY he'd throw out a catcall at me. It was unendurable. I had to grit my teeth because I knew that if I said something I could be in even greater trouble. But it made me FURIOUS. One day I finally had enough and flipped him the bird over my shoulder as I was walking by. I just couldn't take it anymore. I didn't turn around to see, but I remember I have never been more afraid in my life that this guy was going to follow me all the way and try to harm me in some way. And that made me even ANGRIER. I couldn't walk down the street without some asshole harassing me?! the fuck kind of place was this? That he felt he was RIGHT to do this and that I wouldn't fight back? It was vile.

And then I remembered I was in Honduras, and that the entirety of Latin American culture is firmly entrenched in the belief that a man must be Macho and a woman must be his slave. And that guy had probably been told all his life that catcalling was alright, and that a woman had to take it. It's disgusting, and we'll never advance as a country until something changes. Every single day there'd be reports of rapes and women murdered, and this is the kind of place where the victim would almost always get blamed. There's absolutely no one to turn to, because women's rights are largely ignored as they have been for generations. Young men grow up thinking they're The King, young girls grow up being taught they have to be servants. It's disgusting.

And this is the Thirld fucking World I'm talking about. The fact that women still feel this way in this country? is sickening. See how advanced we really are. But at least we're talking about it here. At least we're expressing how disgusting this is. We can condemn and we'll be heard. In Honduras this poster would be blown up to the size of a building and no one would think anything of it.

Shit has to change. And it has to change NOW. This is why we HAVE to be outraged about shit like this poster.

OK I didn't mean to rant and rave, but this was an incredibly powerful post and definitely awoke some serious anger in me. Thanks, Dr.

It's not the rape that offends me, though the act of course is one of the most offensive I can imagine. It's what you mentioned-the defending of it as art because the rapists get their comeuppance. But I've railed against it before in other posts, so I won't repeat myself :)

And I completely agree with what you said about the prevalence of rape in our minds. It's always there. It may seem overdramatic, but the potential of it always lurks in the back of your head. When I take too long at night to find my keys in my purse...that's when I get afraid. I've read so many accounts of rapists waiting for a woman to enter her apartment building that I've made it a habit to have my key in my hand a block before I get to my door. Even though there's no one there, as a girl you sometimes feel that there's someone waiting to use you as a receptacle for their dick.

And S Piz, I had that happen to me a few years back. A guy followed me from a Wawa to my front steps at my parents-15 minutes from where the convenience store was. He parked his car in front of the house and waited for 5 minutes before getting out of the car-that's when I turned on all the lights and woke up my dad. The guy ran. You just never know.

A solid read.

I wish there were easy answers, but fact is that the solution for this is generational education. We have to raise better educated people who can learn to recognize how wrong certain behaviors are.

There are currently ads on our public transport network, and that have played on tv, with a woman screaming in the back of a cab, and the point of this (really rather graphic and upsetting) ad, is to tell women not to take unlicensed taxis.

You mean like those Brinks/Broadview ads where it's ALWAYS women (whether with children or alone) facing off against thieves/rapists?

You mean like those Brinks/Broadview ads where it's ALWAYS women (whether with children or alone) facing off against thieves/rapists?

I don't know those I'm afraid. I probably should have said I'm in the UK.

Brilliant write up, Dr.

We have a scary...actually, I'm just going to recall a few incidents from my friends lives, which...I don't know..which I feel compelled to share

When Nieve and I where younger, she 12, me about 10, we had a break in.
The whole family was involved barring our dad who was at work.
3 men with crowbars and knives came into our house, terrified us, threatened us, took anything they could carry.
At one point, they dragged my mother upstairs to the bedrooms.

She doesn't remember anything after they went to the stairs. She knows they didn't rape her. We know they didn't. I know people might wonder how she knows but she assures me, she knows a sexual assault did not take place in the same way even the most scatter brained woman with the most irregular cycle can KNOW for a fact, two weeks in advance, she is about to menstruate.

But they COULD HAVE.
That knowledge, that possibility scarred my mother, for life. We moved out of that house a year later and she spent that year with a hammer in her hand at almost all times, on the off chance something bad happened again(she'd been mugged in our driveway a year before the break in but since she took a hat, watch, and enough skin off the muggers that one of them must have had stitches, she technically mugged them, because my mum is a bad ass)

Years later I made a friend on the internet. We've never met in person but we're close to this day. We actually met on IMDB when she was admitting to having been raped at the age of fifteen during a home invasion scarily similar to ours. She and her now husband were at home when the burglars broke in with knives and crowbars. The pair were beaten and she was raped at knife point. To this day her husband can't go into the room in which the assault occurred without getting violently ill.

At university, a dear friend came to me one day and admitted she'd had an encounter with an on/off again boyfriend which may have been a rape. To this day she doesn't know what happened even though we spent the rest of the year analysing her memories of the night. There had been drinking involved and my friend (I actually do mean my friends here, I have not been raped) blacked out. She is NOT a black out drinker. She woke up nude and bleeding from her privates and two separate, independent nurses asked if she could have been raped.
Another friend we got closer to in our final year admitted she'd been forcefully raped by a now(naturally) former boyfriend.
A girl in our classes we knew of as a feminist campaigner turned out to have been raped in first year and was not her attackers first or last victim.

At my university, in our first week (what we call Freshers, when it's basically a free for all of boozing and partying until classes start) a girl was gang raped walking home from the city centre, not realising there were women's buses in place to protect from just such an incident(though the fact there even needs to be is horrible enough)

My uni town had a bad reputation for drink spiking and the theorised number of unreported date rapes was frighteningly high.

Nieve, my sister and fellow Jibette once had a drink spiked and while she avoided assault, she cant figure out how her drink was tainted and it sickens me to think how close she came.

One of the actresses I cast in my student film (about rape) had been spiked and assaulted by an aggressive ex.
One two individual occasions I've pulled visibly shitfaced girls aside to ask the name of the bloke pouring drinks down their necks in between calling cabs to go home and on both occasions found them unable to tell me, and found that the would be 'romantic' bolts the moment I politely inject myself.

I am proud to say I'm not a woman who lives every moment convinced every male is out to rape me and literally every man in the world would rape me given half a chance. I know men are not lust machines, driven only by an uncontrollable need to fuck everything with a pulse and a vagina.
I know men for whom the idea of rape is literally sickening, men who get just as angry as the ladies did when posters like the I Spit On Your Grave one are released.

But I can name, right now 5 women I know who have been raped or assaulted, a dozen more who had 'near misses' and yet others who were made to feel threatened or intimidated.

Like Seaster said, I've had times when I've felt intimidated or objectified(nothing so scary as the van), when I've been aware of attention going far beyond unsavoury and into threatening.
I became aware, recently, of how exposed I felt walking alone to my car at the end of the day at work.
I recently had an moment where my skirt was slightly stirred by the wind while I handed over a cheque to an employee of my fathers.
The man pointed it out and I shrugged it off since the most that had happened was he'd seen an extra half inch of my tight clad knee.
Moments later he phoned my office and said he'd give me one if I wasn't his bosses kid. Then asked what his chances would be.
I was offended on various levels, not least of all because I happen to look very young and this guy was 40 if he was a day and he made me feel incredibly threatened.

Intern Rusty, it makes me sad you check if your clothes are 'too' revealing just like it makes me sad Seaster is scared to walk alone and I'm scared to be alone in the house.

I'm depressed now.

By the by, this is only semi-related, and only to the original premise of the ISOYG posts, but I was just looking at this post featuring more promo stills of Lindsay Lohan as Linda Lovelace. The one with her lying facedown with the hand on her neck bothers me most. I DO NOT understand sexualizing brutality.

It's sad when you're dressed to-the-nines in a social setting, and a little small talk on my part while waiting for a drink has already been tainted by the gawking fuckwits - the ones who've already imagibanged you six ways from Sunday the second you walked through the door. Especially when I'm just trying to be cordial. Waiting for a bartender, I've said a simple "hello," only to be met with "I'm married," or "I'm here with my friends." What the fuck happened to just saying hello? It's difficult to just be nice sometimes nowadays, especially when that's all you're trying to do. Your column puts a nice, yet unfortunate perspective on this...

Anyhow, nicely written. Figure I'll get that outta the way early on, before the goddam thread gets all bogged down in retardables.

+1 Dresden Dolls reference

That's also so true Skitz...I've heard similar complaints from guy friends who are trying to be friendly and get some over-reactions from the ladies. It's really a shame. I get yelled at my girlfriends because I'll talk to anyone at bars, but I don't find that intimidating. I may feel afraid sometimes in the dark and in places when I'm alone, but I'll be damned if it'll stop me from being social :)

Thank you so much or this, Pisaster.

When I was in high school, I was doing a musical where several girls had to do a quick change backstage. They came to me after one dress rehearsal, distraught and frustrated because the other guys backstage (stagehands, other actors and guys who decided to be in that spot to rubber neck) had leered and made obvious comments about the whole thing. I was furious and turned to the first adult I could find, a woman I thought would sympathize (she was a notorious feminist and often very outspoken about the state of women's rights, yadda yadda). Do you know what she told me? She said, "They're boys, they're going to leer and make those comments and act that way, get used to it." I was shocked. Had my drama teacher (also a woman) not been just as furious and stated that if people could not be professional, the play would break during every change necessary so that people would be allowed to change in peace, my perception of how men and women interact would have been forever altered.

Of course, now I know that it's not okay to so disgustingly encroach upon someone's comforts. I've thankfully realized that men don't have to look at women as holes to be filled and that they can treat them professionally and with respect. Unfortunately, classes in sociology have given me enough of a lesson to realize that there is a strong undercurrent of victim blaming in our culture. Women are accused of the abuse they receive. Women are too slutty to not get rape. These beliefs are prevalent and encouraged.

And it makes me sick.

At this point I've stopped caring if I'm the uppity bitch who calls people out on their bullshit. Unfortunately, I still work with people who make statements about a woman's place and what a woman is good for and blah, blah, blah. Just because we've stopped acknowledging a real issue with gender inequality, doesn't mean it's not there.

Wonderful piece and many great comments.

On the subject of seeing the film on opening night, might I suggest you purchase a ticket for another film (preferably something independent) and sneak into ISOYG rather than contributing to any sort of commercial success it may enjoy?

You are free to think and do whatever you want, to consume whatever products you fancy, but please do not deny the very real impact these things have on women’s lives, or our right to be angry about them.

Exactly. Well said, Doctor.

Thank you so much for this.

After reading your post I left my desk and called my wife. I gave her a brief exposition on the question I was about to ask her and she understood (we discussed the previous posters, much to her chagrin).

Me: Are you afraid of being raped?
Wife: Like now?
Me: No, not now. Just in general. Is rape something that you're constantly afraid of, or even just aware of.
Wife: [short pause w/ frustrated sigh] It's something I have to be aware of, but I'm not afraid of it.
Me: Does it stop you from doing any of the activities you enjoy.
Wife: I don't do activities where I might be raped, Matthew [frustrated sigh...again].
Me: That's not what I mean. I mean, would the fear of rape stop you from going somewhere you want to go or doing something you want to do? Like would you (I presented your going-for-a-walk example)?
Wife: Maybe. I guess. What did the van look like?
Me: I don't know. Creepy.
Wife: I would probably turn my walk into a jog.
Me: Okay. What about in a bar? Do you ever feel inappropriatly leered at, or do you have to beat back aggresive men?
(Insert short discussion on how I never take her anywhere, and when I do it's only to places I want to go -- I remind her of all the times I go out with her and her friends to the particularly obnoxious dance club they have been going to for 10 years, and she drops it. We continue.)
Me: When I'm not around. Or before we were dating. How about then?
Wife: Sure.
Me: Did it stop you from having fun.
Wife: [laughs at me] All the time, baby. All the time. [She's mocking me now as if I should know that the answer is "no." I catch her meaning and make a lame joke about her slutty friends]
Me: How about your friends. Is rape on their minds.
Wife: I don't know anyone who feels differently than I feel.
Me: But how do you know?
Wife: Matthew [scolding] my friends aren't afraid of getting raped all the time. I don't know anyone who is.
Me: But does it make sense that there are people who are?
Wife: Of course. Women get raped all the time. Can we be done with this?
(Insert short discussion on how I didn't appreciate her tone throughout the conversation and that I was trying to gain honest insight into the female perspective by confering with my most familiar female companion -- kurt apologies follow)
Me: Love you, babe.
Wife: Love you too. Take the trash out when you get home.
Me: Already done.
(insert short discussion on why I shouldn't put the trash on the devil-strip until after 4pm)

I can thankfully say I only have one real story, and it's very tame compared to what others have mentioned. A couple years ago, at work (at an amusement park), I had to go climb up a roller coaster to evacuate some people, and a maintenance guy followed me ''to help.'' Turned out his idea of ''helping'' was commenting on my ass the whole way up the 50 foot lift - 'great view from back here, thanks for that,' etc etc.

Thing is, I wasn't the first; there'd been tons of other complaints on him, and everyone knew he was a creeper. But luckily, I was in a position to be the last, at least at my park. His ass was fired within the hour.

In the last week alone, walking two blocks down my fairly safe street during the day has resulted in a creep staring down my shirt (and after I called him out on it, I heard him mutter to his friend something about how I shouldn't have "pushed those fuckin' tits under [his] nose"), three separate cars full of men hollering at me, another guy aggressively trying to get me INTO his car (luckily, the super-sweet guys restoring the house I was walking past helped chase him off and walked me home), and more than a few women calling me a slut or a whore as they drove past. Because of a physical attribute over which I have ZERO control, I am no longer a person. These people don't know or care that I'm a writer, an actor and singer, a girlfriend, or an aunt to seven crazy beautiful children. I'm just a pair of large breasts walking past them and it's apparently within their rights to say anything or treat me how they want. It's so easy for them to reduce a person down to an object, because an object can't really be a threat, can it? After all, an object can be claimed by anyone.

Even worse, this pretty regular harassment is nothing compared to what so many other people have to put up with every day. And yet, we're told to just ignore them. Women, limit yourselves or you're just asking for it. What happens when we keep ignoring this, when this is now the norm for too many people? It won't get better on its on until we start holding people accountable for their actions and the repercussions. And movies like these? Just fuel on the fire. How is watching a young woman get raped within an inch of her life empowering for anyone? No matter how you justify it, movies like these are fodder for the freaks.

Very, very well written. Thank you.

I'm sure, as has been pointed out, that it seems frustrating for nice and well-intentioned men, and they just can't imagine that this really goes on. They've never catcalled anyone, or known anyone who catcalled anyone, etc. etc. But rest assured that every female you know, EVERY SINGLE ONE, has at a minimum been made to feel uncomfortable and afraid by a man or men at some point. And far more of them than you are probably aware have been assaulted in their lives.

I'm very fortunate that I've never actually been assaulted, and I don't spend a lot of time worrying or being afraid of walking around, etc. In fact, I should probably be more afraid than I am a lot of the time. Nonetheless, I have been sexually harrassed to one degree or another (up to and including grabbing, holding, groping) at *every* job I've had, and I've had quite a few. And it is nervewracking every time some unknown man on the street or in a public place speaks to me. If you try to smile and seem amiable, you run the risk of "encouraging" and suddenly he's following you down the street. If you scowl and walk faster, you get the "whassamatter you stuck up bitch" and who knows where that leads?

Just know this, boys: it's real. It's happening. To all of us. Young, old, skinny, fat, pretty, ugly, barely dressed, burka'd, living in a safe neighborhood, living in a shitty neighborhood... So cut us some fucking slack when we get "upset" about it, OK?

I used to have a large park between where I lived and where I went to school that was a notorious spot for gay men to hook up. As a guy who was originally from the suburbs I had never had the experience of being hit on by another man. But after a few weeks of living there I was very uncomfortable going through the park at any time of day and would always avoid it as much as possible at night. It was very eye-opening. Here was just one tiny piece of land that I spent a few minutes a day traversing where I was followed by creepy dudes and was the recipient of a lot inappropriate language. To think that the whole entire world is like this for women is depressing. While most men are not like this, it only takes a few to turn an otherwise normal environment into something frightening. To experience this as a guy gives me a whole new respect and understanding for what women go through on a daily basis.

This is a fantastic piece, dr. pisaster. Excellent.

There's a lot of talk about catcalling and ogling here, and I think many men who actually perform these types of behaviors truly think that women should find it complimentary.

I agree. I can't even remember how many times guys have justified this behavior with, "Well, I think you look good. You should be flattered."

An excellent explanation of what women deal with on a daily basis.

Pat as Dr. Pisaster notes in her posts and the comments have pointed out, it happens to women all the time and anywhere. We ALL have stories like these. And if women don't pay attention we can easily end up a statistic. It's not the media playing this up, it's reporting on reality for us.

Here's a few of my own:

I was taking a university chemistry class from a Noble prize winning professor. During the FINAL the teaching assistant came up the auditorium across rows of students to deliver a note from the professor that read "you are asking to be raped dressed like that". I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt that read "Fuck Art, Let's Dance".

I gave a presentation to the entire company where I worked shortly after college. The first comment after I finished was from the CEO - "It would have been much better if you weren't wearing a shirt".

Those should be safe settings. You can imagine what walking alone at night is like.

In response to a couple of comments about fear, just from my own perspective. Do I carry around a big fear on a daily basis of getting assaulted? No. Do I modify my behaviour to cut the risks? Of course, even when I'm not totally aware I'm doing it. It's not taking that short cut after dark, it's not walking with my headphones on so I can hear who's around me, it's letting people know that I got home ok.. A lot of people might say it's just common sense, and it is, of course it is, but should I have to?

I'm aware though that I've been very lucky in regards to what has happened to me in my life, bar some scary groping when I was a kid, but I can totally understand women who do feel it much more than I do, and everyday.

I, too, would like to know where you live, but it kinda doesn't matter. I'm glad I don't have to walk to work. I often work pretty late (7 or 8 PM, sometimes a little later) and if I had to walk home from work in the Dallas area, I'd be scared shitless every single day. I live in a pretty safe area (relatively safe, this IS the DFW metroplex, there's tons of crime everywhere), but I wouldn't walk by myself after dark. Ever. There are places in Dallas I don't like to drive through, much less walk.

The sexism thing is kinda (kinda) like the racism thing. Apparently, tons of white people are convinced that most of the racism black people talk about doesn't really exist. Because they, as white people, have supposedly never witnessed it. A lot of men seem to be the same way about sexism/fear of sexual assault. THEY don't experience it themselves, therefore, it must not really exist to the extent that women claim. Because women are hysterical and unreliable, I guess.

I myself don't worry about being sexually assaulted every single minute of my life, but it doesn't have to be every single minute to scare the shit out of you. Just some guy following you (or so you think) for a minute or walking through the hallway at work after everybody else has gone home. Or saying rude shit to you as you walk past. Or loitering in a parking lot 8 feet away from your car. You don't know who the rapists are. They don't wear helpful "Hi! I'm a rapist!" nametags.

I can easily remember a couple situations (not interesting stories) where the male in question could have been a rapist. I don't know for sure, but I chose not to take the chance. In general, I don't give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't assume all men are rapists, but I don't assume any one in particular isn't, either. If that makes sense, ie, I judge the situation, not the person. If it's me and him in a near-deserted parking lot/garage (after dark, esp.), he's a threat. And I behave accordingly (watch him as I'm walking to my car, get in my car, lock the door immediately). Whether he's an actual threat is irrelevant. Same location, only it's daytime and there are plenty of people around, I'm generally relaxed and see most males as non-specific, relatively unthreatening people.

I had a very similar argument with an ex-boyfriend on this topic. I was trying to get him to see or at least understand that women, in general, are more aware of the possibility of being attacked or harassed in some way. It's certainly not the focus of our minds, but it's there. In the back of our minds. All the time.

Those of you, if any, who are still not sure how prevalent this is, try to remember a time when you were made to feel powerless. Maybe as a child you were picked on by a bully or an older cousin. Now imagine that feeling happening over and over in your adult life.

It is everywhere. Last year my best friend, who lived in a gated community with 24-hour security, was raped by a man who followed her up her stairs while she was bringing up groceries. He had a gun. I'm still amazed that she's alive. And even knowing those facts about the case, people still wrote comments on the news website that ran the story about how she was at fault. "What can she expect, living alone like that? She should at least have a dog." The fact that anyone, anywhere, could look at those facts and say she was asking for it?

That is the attitude that frightens me more than walking down a street alone in the dark. That attitude is the reason I'm afraid of walking down the street alone in the dark.

ZombieScientist, I was trying to argue that the knife-wielding maniac was a Hollywood creation. But I definitely did not consider the fact that, as you said, most rapes are committed by an acquaintance of the victim. Frankly, this scares the shit out of me. I can't imagine that happening someone that I know and care about, and that its statistically likely to happen to someone.

Smokey, those are awful experiences. I honestly never think of those things that your prof and CEO did as anywhere near likely to happen. I hope you never have to deal with that again.

Reading all this has really given me a new perspective, and thanks to you both for getting back at me.

I was sexually assaulted while leaving JOANN'S FUCKING FABRICS. I was buying some yarn to crochet a scarf for a friend with (the most innocent thing EVER), and some asshole decided that I'd enjoy seeing his dick. I felt absolutely disgusting.

@ Pat again.

The fact is, these women have been told all their lives that the onus is on them to worry about rape and to avoid situations where they might get raped. So yeah, it isn't surprising that they got pissed of at a guy friend who tells them they should stop worrying so much about getting raped.

And a word of advice: one of the best things you can do as a male feminist is to actually listen to women's experiences before you start to fight them on it. Sorry if that sounds snarky, because it is not meant to be! Your comment reminded me so much of a conversation I had with a friend when I was 18 that it was creepy.

Wading in here. As a man.
I have often wondered if the Objectification that men do is as much to distance themselves from their own emotional state as the woman from her personhood.

As a male survivor of sexual abuse, I know something of the symptoms of this.
I know the shame, dissociation, fear, paranoia it engenders. And all my life, I have felt, in "intimate" situations that I was doing to the other person what was done to me, and that they could not possibly be enjoying this. It has taken me many many years, and a lot of therapy to try and get out of this hall of mirrors.
But that is not my point.
While going through my years of therapy, and in discussions about this, I was astounded how prevalent this is for men. Most any time I bring it up, as I am wont to do, there is almost always at least one man who admits the same. In fact, I would not be surprised if more than a few men on this site have had it happen to them.
Again, not really my point.
My point is that if the symptoms of sexual abuse are pan-gender, what is the likelihood that a lot of the idiotic behaviour of a lot of the "Jeering Droolers" comes, not from a kind of psychopathic flaw in the male psyche, but from from a point of cognitive dissonance. Especially given that men who have been sexually abused in their life have very few avenues for treatment, let alone any outlets or opportunities to address it. It is bad enough for it to have happened. Worse that one is suppoed to just "man up" and take it.
There are psychopaths. I have known one nasty one in particular, who I worked with and who at one point was brought up on a dozen or so charges, but only eventually convicted on one. He was greezy. Everything that was "happening to him" was a conspiracy. He was, in my opinion, truly a psychopath. I do not associate with him at all anymore, as even the thought of him puts a white hot ball of anger in the pit of my stomach.
This man was irredemable.
Most men are not, in my opinion and experience. They are stupid, yes. Perhaps confused. Shy. And feel the only way to get past that is to, well, "overshoot".
I spend a lot of time talking about this to men and women. I find it endlessly fascinating and thank you Dr Pisaster for broaching the subject.

It's an interesting coincidence that I've been reading other articles about rape culture, usually related to the 'rape by deceit' story out of Israel.

A definition/explanation of rape culture:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

Rape Prevention tips for men (news flash! Men are entirely responsible for their own actions!)
http://uzzas.blogspot.com/2010/07/rape-prevention-tips.html

For men wondering - yes, women have to cope, on a daily basis, with seeing most men as a potential threat. We bury that fear deep, because we would not be able to function otherwise, but it is always there. ALWAYS.

Odnon, excellent point(also...well what can I say...I'm sorry you had to go through that and thank you for sharing it)
; I do occasionally wonder about the men jeering. I mean...when you do the basic maths on it, by sheer probability alone at least one or two of the men who honk their horns at me when I walk along the pavement in a short dress have been victims of abuse them selves, or in some cases, are simply closeted gay men putting on a show for their macho friends.

Yes, for a lot of those men, their actions are a way of distancing them selves, hiding their true selves, or a way of dealing with the horrible stuff they've been through.

The only thing I've ever found that actually helped me deal with cat calls/grabbers had nothing to do with the guys or their behavior, it was my reaction to it. I got trapped between this handsy guy and the wall on the subway once. Usually I would either try to move or just sit there and pretend it wasn't happening, but this time I freaked out on him and started shoving him and yelling. He was counting on my good-girl silence to get away with hurting me. He stopped and I felt much more powerful and in control of myself.
Now unless I'm afraid for my life I answer back as loudly as I can.

The thing that's had the most impact on my life though has been an ex who scares the living shit out of me. We dated more than a year ago, but I still lock all my windows and double lock the door. I keep pepper spray and a phone in my bedroom and I watch for his car. He told me that his fantasy is to break into a woman's home and rape and kill her. When we were dating he didn't like that I didn't appear to be afraid of him. This is a self-defense mechanism on my part because my abusive father would be even meaner if we cowered.

The two guys I've dated since then have both made fun of me because of the double locks, but I'm deadly serious about this. I've given his name to several friends because I have absolutely no doubt that he was telling me the truth about his fantasy or that he's crazy enough and mean enough to do it.

Disclaimer: I have and can be totally wrong about anything I say.

king that's a point;

Usually when I am leered at, my knee jerk reaction is to flip them off or yell at them.
Sometimes I laugh at them, not because I like the attention but because, and this is pure fucking ego right here, but because I cant believe they think that shit works and gets them any where, I cant believe they think a young woman like me, clean, well dressed, a touch of class etc(sorry for the ego, she is out of control today) would turn around and be like 'coooor calling me a sexy bitch really got me fired up, take me mr builder man, here up against your dodgy white van!'
I laugh in their faces at their stupidity and audacity but sometimes I wonder if they get the wrong idea, if it validates them?

Your story reminds me...not to belittle your story, at all, it's just popped into my head; I read a comic once, it was a Constantine short written by Ian Rankin for this crime writer/comic book thing they did last year.
ONE of the characters was a japanese young woman who regularly travelled home on the subway. In her flashbacks, we learn that from the age of 11 or so , when on her subways, when they went under the dark tunnels, creepy Japanese business men would grope and touch her in the dark, knowing she'd be too scared and obedient to speak out.
It goes on daily for years and years until, by the time she's 16, she's totally broken and damaged and has turned to sex, bondage and self harm to cope. She's...sort of reclaimed her sexual identity by becoming a webcam Dominatrix but even she knows it's a mask to hide her disgust with herself, caused by the sexual abuse she suffered.

It was a great point on how what some people(usually the abusers) see as casual or innocent is actually an incredibly damaging thing.

But yeah, your story made me think of that.

Yossarian, given the apparent quality and quantity of thought you've put into this I believe you're well on your way to raising "a smart, confident, adventurous, and capable female while still ensuring basic levels of safety."

If you're willing to talk honestly with her about all the issues your post brings up and your thoughts on the subject you should be successful. I think the most important things are making sure she develops good critical thinking skills and learns how to judge what is / isn't acceptable behavior. Instilling a belief that she is a person, with a right to her own beliefs and opinions, and not a sex object will allow her to stand up for herself.

Unfortunately, it simply isn't possible to be 100% safe from sexual assault but she can learn to protect herself and critical thinking and judgment will help keep her from entering situations/places that are likely to lead to assaults. I agree with most comments here that it's not always on my mind but it helps to recognize those situations where it should be on your mind. Learning self-defense or a martial art can't hurt as it provides both self-confidence and techniques to help if she does find herself in a dangerous situation.

As you wrote, You will never be able to control how other people think and act but you can be aware of yourself and make good decisions. That's the key.

figgy, I really feel for central and south American women. I backpacked through central America for a few months. I quickly learned not be on my own in most places. As a blond, I was called a "puta" almost daily.

Thanks for this great article.

Even when I lived in the country as a teen, my parents always taught me good common sense (improved upon by martial arts classes). When you're walking by yourself, keep your head up, distractions to a minimum. Walk with purpose, make eye contact, stand up straight. Don't sit in your car with your doors unlocked. And if anyone ever tries to get you in a car with him/her do everything you can to get out of the situation, even if you have a gun pointed at your head because if you get in a care your survival chances significantly decline.

While I'm not fearful of being harmed each time I step out my door (as a current city dweller) I feel the need to always be aware of my surroundings. It's called street smarts - not fear.

Also, I don't know if anyone has ever seen this website, hollabacknyc.blogspot.com. It encourages women who have been harassed on the street, on public transit etc to snap a picture of the pervert and post it online. While I could see some situations where this could be dangerous if the person is too mentally unstable, but I also see how it could be empowering. Interesting to think about as an anti-harassment tactic.

Also, thanks to everyone for the constructive discussion and sharing your stories.

Pat, no worries, like I said you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and going back through the posts it's actually really refreshing to see how you've responded.
I've had similar talks with people older than you and who I thought were incredibly smart people(not that you're not etc ) and the attitude some of them have is appalling.
The most frustrating thing for me, as a woman, is trying to get people to recognise date rape. I dont mean the date rape where at the end of the night a man forces sex, I mean the type where a woman is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too drunk to give consent and the dude fucks her any way (this is harking back to the Observe and Report deabte).

I know people who will not recognise a rape unless the victim, male or female, has had the everloving shit kicked out of them.
If a girl wakes up naked, sore, with no memory of what happened but aware sex has been had, these people call it buyers remorse.

On the subject of date rape, my brother weighs 13 stone of muscle. He's a 6 feet tall army cadet who can look after himself in a fight, and often does.
He's also rather handsome, I'm told(though today a 19 year old girl told him he looks like a turtle but in a good way)

Any way, one day 18 months or so ago the bro is out in a club and casually starts chatting to a bloke. At some point the brother orders himself a drink and out of politeness, orders the fella one. The dude insists on paying and the brother realises the dude is gay and is flirting and starts to name drop his girlfriend and talking about how straight he is and the straight sex he was. The bro isn't a homophobe but wanted to let the dude down gently.

The next thing my brother remembers is being on the roof of the club with the dude trying to kiss him. The brother is feeling dizzy and woozy and sick and light headed and the dude wont stop trying to kiss him and in the end, hauls off and punches my brother in the face and pretty much makes with the attempted rape.
My brother gets his bearings long enough to all but throw the dude off the roof and is hanging the guy by his legs when the bouncers arrive.
Now, the kid cries homophobic blow up which is neither here nor there but the gist is, he blames my brother for sending the wrong messages, then attacking the dude when he realised he was gay.

a savvy bouncer notices the brother can barely fucking STAND and demands the dude turn out his pockets.
He reluctantly does and the contents are suspicious enough to call the police(something along the lines of unlabelled eye drop bottles I think) The police arrive with a portable testing kit and the stuff tests positive for the Roofie date rape drug. This dude was trying to drug and rape my brother.
The police takethe brother home and the bouncers kick the would be rapists head in and tell him not to come back.

So.....I think what I'm saying is, yes, we cant make broad assumptions on behalf of or against our gender; everyone, where and when you can, be safe. Boys and girls alike, be safe, do what you need to to feel safe.

Thanks Nadine.
Talking dispels the clouds.

Holy shit, Smokey, that's unbelievably gross. I'm just appalled that they even thought that those were appropriate comments to make in any way whatsoever. What the hell kind of culture do we live in where assholes think it's OKAY IN ANY WAY to say something like that, to anyone?!

And god, yeah, nothing would disgust me more in Honduras than to see the way some men treated the tourist girls. It's fucking disgusting, and they probably know (or think) that they can get away with it. The biggest problem in Honduras is that there's just no consequences for that sort of thing, and they know it.

It really just makes you look at everything in a different light--how this behavior is not only introduced but ENFORCED and encouraged by things like movies, tv shows, music, everything. As kids they take in all of this information, in college it gets worse because they travel in packs, and by the time they're grown up it's too late to change it. AND THEY THINK IT'S OK.

Jeebus, that's fucked up.

Yossarian: I think the way my mom and aunt raised me might be helpful: NEVER let ANYONE think that that kind of behavior is OK. Never, EVER encourage it in any way whatsoever. Give her the tools to be able to fight back, to not take that shit, to not ever be in a circumstance like that. Teach her to go with the right groups, to stay away from the assholes, to stick to her integrity and not ever, EVER let anyone get away with shit like that. Sure, you can't always fight back and sometimes it'll be foolhardy to do so, but if you can? by all means tell that fucker to fuck off. And if she has any male friends, teach her to tell them that that shit ain't right. Make it spread. But like someone said above, just the fact that you're aware of this problem and that you're thinking about it is a great step in the right direction. Girls and boys need to be educated on this very early on, and taught that this behavior is NEVER right.

And, sometimes, the best thing to do when the catcalling and the harassing takes place is to CALL THEM OUT ON IT. Of course, this can't happen if you're alone, but if it's a public place like king described above? Those fuckers are COWARDS and counting on your silence. So scream at them, call them sick fucks, humiliate them. Of course, it would depend on the situation, so be aware of it, but sometimes that works wonders.

"Look at the women you know. By the end of their freshman year of college, 1 in 4 will have been raped."

There's no need to resort to fear mongering with bs statistics. Issues such as rape prevention should dealt with in an open and honest manner. Properly educating people is the best way to help them stay safe.

I'd give anything to be able to walk or run in the evenings. Or not be terrified to walk to my car at night. Every single day.

I know a man who was raped by a woman. He told me about it as an explanation for why he said things like "I hate women" and would bash women who reported rape as being liars just trying to screw over guys because what happened to him made him feel absolutely powerless. He knew that rape was wrong but didn't believe that most women who reported rape were "really" raped, they were just angry/jealous/bitches who wanted to ruin men's lives. I had to point out that if I'd been attacked the way he had, I would never have reported it EVER based on the way female rape victims are treated because his attitude, whatever justification he had for it, was sadly common among all men AND women whether or not they had been sexually assaulted. He was shocked that I would think that way for some reason.

I've done a lot of things that put me in a position where I could be "blamed" if something happened to me. I've traveled alone to foreign countries. I've gone to clubs by myself because I knew people would be coming later. I took a night job where I had to walk across campus by myself. I've *gasp* been drunk in public while wearing short skirts and heels. I don't think my life is smaller because I'm a woman but I do think I'm more scared and anxious than I'd be if I didn't have this constant threat of not just sexual assault but being blamed for the sexual assault hanging around in the back of my head. It's a fine line.

I've read maybe a third of the comments and will have to come back tomorrow because I worked out in kung fu class for two hours and I am So Tired. But I wanted to thank Dr. Pisaster for writing something that I have often wanted to say myself, but can't properly express because my hurt and rage about it gets the best of me.

I was sexually assaulted by a guy at 3:00 in the afternoon on a weekday on a busy street while his four friends jeered and laughed. I was wearing overalls, and you know how sexy those are so it was obviously my fault cuz we can't ask the menz to control themselves. Some people aren't worth the gunpowder to blow them away with. I've been sexually assaulted verbally and physically more than a few times in my life, And every single woman I have ever gotten to know even just passably well have been similarly assaulted, if not much worse. From rape to child molestation to gropings to disgusting propositions on the street. Most of them more than once as well. So, yeah. We're sensitive about the subject, so some respect on the part of men who don't get why it is so upsetting would be appreciated. This is our lives. This shit happens Every. Fucking. Day.

I love hiking. I'd love to do a solo hike but I don't dare. I've tried it with two large dogs and even then had a half naked guy sneak up on us on a ridge top. Thank god for those dogs. I've talked to outdoorsy men who look down their noses at women who don't 'go for it' in activities like that. They just don't get it because they don't experience the threat. They don't have to worry about it at all so it isn't even a consideration for them. They seem to interpret a woman wanting companionship on a hike or a bike ride in a park as a weakness, or an inability to be alone with her thoughts. I would so dearly love to be able to do that without fear, but I can't. You really do have to consider safety in numbers, and be careful even then.

I know I said I'd go to bed, but I had to say this:

Library Chick wrote:
"Please don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-sex. I'm not anti-conversation or flirting. I'm not against BDSM among consenting adults. I love Secretary) because the main character is very aware of what she wants. (It's not degrading IF the person is exploiting him/herself by choice AND the person feel empowered by the act.) My friends and I make plenty of off-color jokes amongst ourselves, but we also know where the boundaries are and feel comfortable telling off anyone who doesn't."

I see this alot in discussions about any kind of feminism, especially those where women express a desire not to be raped or harmed. You owe no one this explanation. No woman should have to defend their anti-rape, anti-objectification, anti-dehumanizing stance by adding that they aren't a prude. Real sex between happy consenting adults is not even in the same ballpark as the assaults were are discussing here. And heaven forbid some man thinks you don't like sex? So the hell what? How is your sexuality or level of sexual enjoyment any of anyone's business? You need offer no explanation. Not wanting to be assaulted is not the same as not enjoying healthy normal sex. Being a feminist is not akin to hating men or sex of any kind. You have your own agency and right to exist even if you don't like sex. You aren't useless or less human if you don't like sex, your opinion doesn't carry less weight if you don't like sex.

Otherwise, I dig your explanation of why the lack of a face in the poster is disturbing, and your answer to RobP was spot on in my opinion.

who really treats women like magical unicorns.

Haha, thanks for making me laugh. Reading these comments has made me very sad.

Yes, thank you.

Maybe it's because it's now the summer, and I tend to wear shorts or skirts or a dress, but lately, I've started to notice that whenever I walk by a group of men, I can consciously feel myself tense up. I wonder if they will catcall me or ogle at me, and when they don't, I breathe a sigh of relief after I've passed. The thing is I do this all the time (the "this" being me getting really nervous or tense) because even though I know it's just someone talking noise at me, it never fails to make me incredibly uncomfortable.

Someone in the comments wonder if perhaps women are overreacting about it. See, the thing is, I don't think someone who catcalls me is necessarily going to rape me or sexually assault me. But that doesn't change the fact that I still feel uncomfortable as hell when it happens, and that I don't appreciate that feeling of discomfort. Add to the fact that this happens every single day. every single fucking day.

If a person on the street actually talks to me and not leers at me, I talk back! I appreciate the, "good mornings" and the "have a good day" as long as they say it to my face and not my tits/ass.

I've been lucky though - if I am harassed on the streets, I'm bold enough to tell people to get the fuck away from me or I actually explain to them why they are fucking creeps (not every time of course - only if it really warrants a conversation, like if I am being followed). Most men's reactions to my "over reactions" are to walk away. They are cowards and they don't like being called out.

Yossarian, I think you should do what my mom did: She enrolled me in chinese kung fu classes when I was five, and forced me to go every week, until I was 12. I was not very good at it, but it did teach me that I should know how to protect myself, and also made me value my strength (by which I mean both physical strength and inner strength). She also used to tell me that it was no use being pretty; I had to be smart. I know that sounds like a "duh" statement, but growing up, having her drill that into my head really made me the person I am now. So now, I can dress sexy, flirt at parties, and (god forbid) hope the boy I like thinks I'm pretty - but i am also smart enough to verbally slice a guy to pieces if he does something creepy/date-rapey/disrespectful. That, or just not make excuses for him or not encourage that kinda behavior.

Thank you again for this piece.

There's no need to resort to fear mongering with bs statistics. Issues such as rape prevention should dealt with in an open and honest manner. Properly educating people is the best way to help them stay safe.

Posted by: JS at August 3, 2010 9:25 PM
A google search or two would show that my stats aren't B.S. I take stats somewhat seriously. The "Scientist" part of my handle isn't ornamental.

I worked with some people who did some of the research. Organizations like One in Four ( http://www.oneinfourusa.org/ ) are somewhat limited in that they have to go by official stats, which don't include (among other things) the vast number of unreported rapes. And they're still coming up with 1 in 4 college women are raped.

When you stop using loaded terms like "rape" and "sexual assault" and simply ask undergrad women about their experiences, it's staggering. Lots of things happen they don't call rape but sure as hell fit the definition.

More men need to stand up and say why this behavior should not be tolerated and be prepared to defend such stances adamantly. And for Heaven's Sake guys, should you see women being threatened, mistreated or otherwise endangered- do something! Get involved. The real shame is to stand by and do nothing. And while courage is not exclusive to men over women, I believe it takes a man of quality to display it.

Thanks Dad.

Posted by: bleujayone at August 3, 2010 7:23 PM

Amen! I have two sisters and many brothers, and we were all raised from our earliest days to respect all people. It was simply unacceptable to participate in or encourage the type of conduct described here, because that was disrespectful of people. Being a decent human meant that all people deserved our respect (unless they proved that they weren't worthy of it). And I'm not speaking solely of women: society in general deserved our respect and politeness. It was common courtesy and expected of us. Now, I can't state with certainty that none of my brothers ever engaged in inappropriate behaviour, but I saw examples of them literally fighting the "good old boys" who might do such things at school and dances, and their friends were guys who'd been raised as we had. And I know they've all become parents themselves and passed the lesson forward. Finally, I know for a damn certainty that I never did any of that shit, nor did I allow it in my presence without opposition, all because of my parents' living example. I'm no saint, and I enjoy a ribald joke or flirting as much as anyone (man or woman), but it must be mutual. My mom and dad were living examples of how decent women and men behave both in society and in the family. We need (much) more of that.

Nadine and Vermillion

Nadine, you talked about date rape and alcohol, and Vermillion, you mentioned Jersey Shore. Very odd that you say this because I hail from the Dirty Jersey, and I got back yesterday from a weekend in Seaside Heights. For anyone who doesn't know, Seaside (affectionately known in NJ as Sleazeside) is where Jersey Shore season 3 is currently being filmed.

Anyway, the other night a guy in the house I was at tried hooking up with this drunk girl, and I nearly decked him. Even if you're drunk too, IT DOESN"T FUCKING MATTER. You're still taking advantage of the person you're trying to get with. He didn't do it in the end by the way.

It was this incident that got me all riled up and thinking about this stuff, and then this article comes and allows me to vent, so thanks again Dr. P.

Also, our house was literally next door to Bamboo and down the street from Karma, which are the two big clubs in Seaside. I'm not sure if this is the way it is at Bamboo as well, but I'm pretty sure at Karma the age minimum is 21 for guys and 18 for girls. I heard something about Bamboo just recently becoming 21/21. Fucked up or what?

And yes, I did see the situation, jwoww, pauly d, and ronnie (all left intentionally uncapitalized).

I think women are more on the defensive because of an increase in the attitude that a rape victim must have 'been asking for it' in some way. You know, she was wearing a skirt (or, apparently, jeans, which according to some Italian judge, meant she couldn't possibly have been raped because he figured they're really hard to get off without assistance). Or they were out late at night. Or they'd had a drink. Or, in a *wonderful* case in Australia, they happen to fall asleep with their front door unlocked within sight of a meandering drunk stranger. Turns out, as far as the judge is concerned, if said drunk walks in and starts raping her, he's just 'reacting to an extraordinary situation', and should be wished the best of luck with the rest of his life and sent on his way.

It's hard not to get paranoid when your newspapers are filled with stories like that.

But that's the version if it's a woman. If it's a man, well, there's no way he could have been raped. Men fight back, right? He's either lying, or he must have something REALLY wrong with him (Repeat for domestic violence or any other crime society associates with female victims).

That's where it gets really fucked for men. Because not only are the genuine guys up against 20-odd years of 'safety' conditioning every time they say hello to a woman, if they are attacked, nobody believes them. And their worst enemies are generally other guys, the very same people who'd have the best chance of fixing this mess (including, as others have mentioned, by teaching/learning not to behave in a predatory manner in the first place).

This isn't an attack on men - the feminine version of this is the 'being judged on your looks' mess. I'm really not sure how this could be fixed, aside from one hell of an education program that I just don't think any countries politicians have the nerve to implement.

Either way, I am incredibly impressed by the standard of responses to this article (and the article itself - well done, Dr P.). This is a topic that has, in my previous experience, never failed to turn into a troll-fest and/or raging flame war. I've always suspected Pajibans are a better class of people, and this just proves it.

I am soooo late here probably no one will read this. I work nights and rarely get to a discussion before it has fizzled out. However, I must comment here because this is just too important of an issue.

Here is a little background on my viewpoint. I am a 25 year old male. I would never even think of doing anything like catcalling or groping a woman. Physical contact must be invited in an obvious way before I will initiate it. I have a sister that was in a bad relationship. The worst he ever did was hold her down and push her. When I found out about this (years later) I got mad at my sister for not calling me. I would have fucked him up. I understand now that her fear kept her from acting in the rational way any person not under duress would act. I know fear is powerful, and rest assured I would never blame any woman for being attacked, even if she ran naked through the streets screaming "fuck me! fuck me!" When the "time" comes if she says no it doesn't matter how badly she was begging for it ten seconds ago. No is No is No.

But I can't help but wonder why some women in some situations don't fight harder. I am a guy and I know my view is different. Maybe the idea of getting raped is much better than getting the shit beat out of you and then being raped, but I would scream and kick and writhe and bite and fight tooth and nail to avoid being raped. In particular, there was a scene from "MAD MEN" when Joan and her new husband (or maybe fiance at the time) went into Don's office late one night. I don't know if anyone else was in the office. They argued, he made advances, she said no and put up a mild struggle, but then let it happen. joan is a strong person who I would have thought would fight back. Did she not because this was her husband? She clearly didn't want to have sex at that moment so why didn't she resist more. Now I know that sounds bad. I am not blaming Joan. It is 100% his fault for not listening to her and she deserved nothing like that for her actions, but I still can't help but question why she didn't resist more? She should have poked his fucking eyes out. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Also I guess the fact that they were in 1963 is a major factor, but transport the same situation to present day for argument's sake.

Also I am slightly miffed a the lack of statistics involved in this discussion. I read not too long ago in TIME magizine that one third of women are raped by 2% of men. Maybe someone can validate or invalidate those numbers but if true, it would seem that women can relax a little. Rape is horrible and indefensible and any man who would even consider it is loathesome, but that is not most men. Granted that 2% does not include all the assholes who honk and catcall and such without taking it to the level of rape. They are just assholes who harass women, but no woman should be subjected to that either.

As many have said before, I love this site and i love the frank and candid discussion I can find here. On movies and life. And thanks to the good Dr. for this eloquent and revealing piece.

I admit to be 1 of the guys who at times have problems getting it. Not that I was ever one of the stupid jerks who think a women is asking for it if not in a burka or that date-rape aint rape. But the worry, the fear walking around alone or not doing things you like, as a lot of people talk about here...

I know the stats, I believe these things are happening. I just can't relate to the fear. Going home from a party at 3AM taking a short cut using a dark alley, it does not even cross my mind that something could happen to me.

Lots of comments here about cat-call's and ogling. Men yelling at a women on the street, yeah they are jerks. But complaining about men looking? Really? Only men I know who don't do that are gay. Some are just better at not being noticed at it than others.

Thank God someone has the termerity to stand up and call out the bullshit when they see it. Dr. Pisaster is another strong female role model for me. I just want to add my two cents here. Maybe if certain men realized what women have to deal with on a daily basis, they'd understand why we get so rageful over this.

At the age of 13, I was nearly gangraped by three of my classmates. Why? Yes, I know the reason. The reason was I had the gall to win an art contest one of the boys had also entered. Because girls aren't supposed to be as good as boys at things like art. I'm supposed to be in the kitchen making babies, and he was going to show me where I belonged. Yes, he actually told me this. And when I reported this to the school, they gave me the old "boys will be boys" excuse and told me I shouldn't have been so mouthy, because I did have the reputation for being the schools loudest 'feminest advocate'. I was thirteen at the time! Thirteen!

This happened before the Columbine shootings, which is I guess why no one was taking things seriously. But those boys tormented me for months, to the point where I had to ask to be excused from class after it started so I could go to my locker and get my books and go to the bathroom. Any time they caught me out, they'd shove me against the wall, grab me, threaten me, and they did this in front of God and everyone, and no one stood up to them. After three months of this, I finally got to the point where I literally thought it was them or me. And I was going to make damn sure it wasn't me. Thank God my mother, another strong woman, finally figured out what was going on. She mopped up asphalt with everyone at that school who'd let those boys harrass and assault me. Needless to say, after she threatened to go to the newspapers, news TV, and drag lawyers into the mix, they took care of things. But it comes down to the fact that the school didn't think it was a problem that someone was openly molesting a student until my mother threatened to sue them. It took money being brought up before the school saw this as a legitimate problem.

And there have been other incidents as well. I no longer go to bars because inevitably some lech decides to throw his hand down my shirt or up my leg. It took a decade after the school incident before I would even think of wearing a dress or a skirt. To this day, I still have difficulty being alone in a room with a man, whether I know him or not.

I've had so many men grab at my breasts that its impulse to throw a punch if a man's hand even gets remotely close to that part of me. And no, I don't walk alone at night. I carry a gun and yes I know how to use it and will use it if I have to. I will never allow myself to be put in that position ever again. And when I'm home alone, I'm a basketcase until my roomies get back. Thank God I have the dog with me now. That was the hardest part of living alone. Getting up in the middle of the night to make sure all the doors and windows are locked, even though you know you've checked them a dozen times already.

In college, I know of three friends who were raped, and all my female friends had at least one story of some guy who'd decided he liked the way they looked and gee, wouldn't they be so lucky if he decided to park his dick in them for a while? And his inevitable degradation when they turned him down.

Shit like that sticks with you. It makes you angry. It makes you sick and it makes you hurt.

I had to stop reading, because your gender generalisation pissed me off.

I do NOT feel that rape is more "present" to me because I happen to be a woman. Both men and women can have experienced sexual traumas, and being able to empathise with such victims is not tied to gender, in my opinion. I think your division into men and women in terms of reactions, of "getting it" and in opinions regarding the depiction of rape in film is completely useless and extremely provoking.

Ok, on to reading the article and the comments...

Nothing has the potential to bring this home faster than becoming the father of a daughter. Suddenly, you remember every male pig you've ever known. Even worse, you remember every time you, yourself, have objectified a woman and gotten an erection in the process.

We all look at other people with admiration for their physical attributes. We're built that way. But there's a difference between appreciating how attractive a woman is and leering at her tits. It comes down to the difference between admiring the whole person and admiring just her body.

Agree with Dr. Pisaster or not, you must accept that her experiences are representative of the experiences of lots and lots of women.

There is an excellent book called The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.
I highly recommend it.

1. As a 16 year old on an overcrowded subway car, I was humped from
behind by a 40ish year old man. I look back and he looked blank. He did
it again. The subway was so crowded I could not move. I kicked him in
the shin as hard as a could. He stopped.

2. As a teenager on a fairly empty subway car, a man came over and pressed
his erection against me. I got off at the next stop.

3. A man once told me on the phone, "You have a nice voice. You
should be a phone sex operator."

4. As a 40 year old, a man once decided to sit at a table with me in a
municipal building cafeteria with lots of other places to sit. I tried
to read my book, he tried to keep talking to me and it was one of
those times when every alarm bell in my head went off and I got out of
there as fast as I could.

5. While 6 months pregnant, I walked out of the building I work in within a
large and very safe corporate park. We have excellent security. A man
with a badge proving himself to be an employee and a suitcase asked me
if I could drive him over to one of our company's other buildings in the same
business park. I said I couldn't and suggested that if he go inside
Security could help him out. He was very upset. I did not think there was a
good chance he was a rapist or would harm me. What I thought was,
"Dude. You know the rules. You do not ask a female stranger if you
can get in her car."

What really disgusts me is how it starts when we are children. How many of us faced some kind of sexual molestation before we even hit puberty? And of course the numbers are too high for boys, too (I'm well-aware of that as I have 3 sons I worry about). I know I had some bad experiences as a child but my sister had worse and has faced more harassment as an adult as well. She is now very fat--this is a common issue in our family but she is especially big. My mother theorizes that it's partly an unconscious attempt to make herself less of a target for skeezy men, but she still gets more unwanted attention than the average fat woman.

@ Silchas Ruin

There is a difference between someone looking at you, and someone staring you down. People are talking about staring and leering when they are talking about what you interpreted as 'looking'.

Thank you KBalls.

So I wasn't able to read all the comments, because frankly, I don't have THAT kind of time. And while this will probably get buried, as this is an older thread, I do have a question to pose:

How can we automatically assume that a poster like this promotes rape? I mean, its certainly in poor taste, I will agree wholeheartedly. But the argument that this promotes rape seems like the same argument that kids who play violent video games will grow up to be violent people. I think that regardless of whether this poster or this movie exist there will be sexist assholes in the world who attempt to take advantage of women. Sure, there's probably a correlation, but I think this poster might be more accurately viewed as the symptom of the larger problem, instead of the cause.

But the argument that this promotes rape seems like the same argument that kids who play violent video games will grow up to be violent people.

You do realize, Pandemic, that studies have shown that to be true in several cases? It is called desensitization. It isn't exactly 1 + 1 = 2, but it is a matter of cause and effect.

I think just reading through the comments it should be fairly obvious to anyone that this is a very real, very horrible, very PRESENT thing to almost all women. Those who haven't experienced this in some way are either blessed, or just haven't had a girlfriend confess something like that to them. And that's so often the case--we keep these things inside because they're humiliating and shaming, but we SHOULD talk about it. All the time. Specially to men.

And yes, OF COURSE this happens to men as well. There are violent, assholish people everywhere. Men AND women. But the entire point of this article and the comments on it is that, more likely than not, a man is probably NOT gonna have this present in their minds as much as woman will. I'm not saying this will ALWAYS be the case, but come on, the odds are stacked up against women. "but it happens to men, too!" is not an argument. You're not gonna "win" this. There's no winning in this problem.

Patty: Unfortunately these studies are far from complete. There is certainly evidence pointing to a causation of short term desensitization amongst players of violent video games (or exposure to violent media in general). Problematically however, is the fact that a long term study which attempts to determine causation between violent media and violent behavior is largely infeasible to conduct. The problem is that you would have to conduct a longitudinal study over a period of time where you wanted to determine the influence (if you wanted to see if the effects lasted five years, the study would have to last five years). During this time you would have to rigorously control the amount of violent media a participant in the study partakes in.

Unfortunately this type of study is just not feasible to conduct. So while we are easily able to conduct correlational studies between consumption of violent media and sensitivity to violence, we are unable to draw any concrete conclusions on causation. That is to say, we are unable to say whether people who like violent video games become violent, or they like violent video games because they already tend towards violence.

I could, however, have missed something in my research. If that is the case: Please, feel free to point this out.

Oh, absolutely.

Also, Kballs, that was a great post.

I certainly will claim no expertise, Pandemic. I am looking at cause and effect as a general principle more than the specifics of what research has (or even could have) proven.

As far as desentization, let's look at it from a "social experiment" point of view: A large group of Pajibans enjoy horror films. They watch movies that thrill, scare and terrorize. From film in general, they visually encounter a lot of violence.

(Disclaimer: I love you bitches, so I mean no disrespect)

Now look at the commenting style in our Jiban culture. When Katheirne Heigl shows up in a film opposite someone we respect, we resort to explaining the excruciating fashion in which she should be punished; say, shut in a box with a thousand hungry fire ants. We do it to be funny (and unfortunately, it often succeeds).

I do not imagine that, as a collective group, we are more likely to inflict physical violence than someone who doesn't watch those (any, really) movies. But we are desensitized to the gore and violence. We use it for humor, or as general vitriol against those we merely dislike.

In that same fashion, (to come back to the point) boys grow up watching how men in their lives treat women. And the men "in their lives" often include characters on TV and in movies. Also those in music (ever listened to half of the lyrics on the radio?). By repeated exposure, we learn to accept something as "just the way it is".

Frankly, the reference to the Linda Lovelace biopic is painfully appropriate. I fear that the material will not be handled with dignity and respect, but in a way, even that proves its own point.

I'm rambling now. And shaking. These are the kinds of things that make me want to never reproduce, because I fear the world in which my children will be born.

That was beautifully said Patty O'Green.

Thank you to figgy too. You've been so eloquent.

As far as "rape culture" and blaming the victim goes, I can never get this one thing out of my head. When I was 22, I was on a jury for a sexual assault case. The victim was the next door neighbor of the attempted rapist/molester (they kept calling the charge assault, but she was digitally penetrated and in my mind, she was raped whether or not a penis was involved) and they were friends. They got dinner together occasionally, he fixed her car for her, they were friends, but not romantically involved. He came to her door at 2:00 in the morning, drunk, saying he needed to talk to someone and she let him in. After he made several passes at her, she told him to leave, he got handsy and ended up forcing her against the wall and ripping her panties off and etc. ANYWAY the point of this story is, the jury was made up of 7 women and 5 men. Other than me, EVERY SINGLE WOMAN said, "Well, she shouldn't have let him in. She was stupid for inviting him in at 2:00 in the morning - who does that? What did she expect was going to happen?" I was appalled! She invited HER FRIEND into her house, where he'd been many times before, but now it was HER FAULT? WTF?

It's always stayed with me because if it had happened at 2:00 in the afternoon, would it have still been "her fault" according to them? Did it make these other women feel safer because in their minds, rape or assault could never happen to THEM because they would never do something so stupid?

By the way, the men on that jury all voted for a guilty verdict. It was the women who were the holdouts, because of the blame they were putting on her.

Though clearly there are large numbers of male victims, who we probably are not aware of, as it is reported by them even less often than by females.
Posted by: Slash at August 4, 2010 1:16 PM
I think that is the point. It is not a matter of "who has had what happen more to whom", but that for men in these situations, it is extremely difficult to speak about it, whether from aforementined "what a guy" attitudes, or the minimization one feels in thinking "It's not as important" as for women.
I firmly believe that looking at this issue pan gender, addresses things in men that might otherwise lead them to more sublimated ways of thinking that could very well promulgate said "creepy" behaviour.
Yes, it is reported more that women are subject to this, and the key phrase is "reported by them [men] even less often than by females"
Once men learn how to break the "code of silence" we somehow feel sworn to, the better the chance of reducing harm across the board. This is not at all about "minimizing" the situation of and for women. It is atrocious and I firmly believe it must be addressed. I know a lot of men who are in a lot of pain and feel they have no way to deal with it. And that leads to frustration, herd behaviour, lashing out and misrepresentation.
I posted earlier about this at August 3, 2010 7:44 PM And please forgive me, but I of course can only come at this from a male point of view, and that to me means understanding myself, my experience, my place in society, my place in history and that of my brothers. I will give them the same benefit of the doubt as I would in any legal proceeding, and if I deem them culpable, I will act, and have acted and will continue to do so. But I cannot act upon blanket statements of fear anymore than I can deal with my own blanket feelings of fear that I assure you I carry around with me every day.
Susan Faludi wrote a great book about this called Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man.
Another good book, if anyone is interested is "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell.
There is no arbitrary judge in any of this. There are men and there are women.
It just seems to that address one half of this is to to pull the body off the tick and leave the head burrowing.
We used to dance with each other.
Now, we just dance at each other.
Sorry for the length of this post, and the big words and any perceived attempts to hijack the topic at hand.

Paty:

The Harvard Medical School Center for Mental Health, The Journal of Adolescent Health, The British Medical Journal as well as Surgeon General David Satcher all beg to differ with you on the topic of video game violence.

If a human being is pre-disposed to violence, they will inevitably act out. Pointing fingers at outside stimuli is non-too-subtle way to spread the blame.

Video Game violence is to school shootings as short skirts are to....?

There's a chicken and egg problem.

Are posters like this causes of rape? No not really. It's probably more accurate to say that the prevalence of rape, pop culture elements like this poster, and even asshole catcallers are all symptoms of a deeper cultural problem.

But what is that root problem, or set of problems? And once we clearly label or identicy them, how do we treat those problems? I honestly don't know. I think we're still in a "treat the symptoms" phase because we don't understand ourselves well enough to track the source.

DESENSITIZATION - seriously, strtwise, look it up. That was my point. Let's stay on topic.

Individuals are responsible for their actions. End of story. When someone pulls a trigger, it is their own finger and their own choice. The same is true of rapists.

Which, by the way, is not to say that we should stop treating the symptoms.

I think Rusty made a great point: this culture of rape and blame is a huge problem for men as well, and I hope I didn't lead anyone to think that I thought it wasn't.

@Patty - in strtwise's defense, there's a case to be made that desensitization of the type you're describing doesn't apply to the video game case. And it probably doesn't exist as such at all.

Such "evidence" as there is usually attributable to structural problems with the study, IME. Just as many studies show no effect or the opposite effect. They just get less airtime.

To bring it back to the main point... do posters like the above desensitize people to violence against women? Evidence is sketchy. Hell, evidence for that kind of cultural desensitization of any kind is sketchy. The concept originally referred to adjustment to a far more basic stimulus, like pain, or a frequency of sound. The broadening and broadening of it over time reflects fairly antiquated thinking, IMO. More likely the poster simply reinforces existing status. The guy who has a lust-on for that kind of power over and abuse of a woman has it reinforced and the guy who finds it repulsive is repulsed.

If we really want to affect change, we need to raise more kids who fall into the second category. If I knew how to do so, maybe I'd think about having kids.

Tammy
You are absolutely right, and I apologize for the poor analogy. Instead of violent porn, lets say its video games that simulate violent porn, or as it has been presented by some in this comment thread, lets say that its some medium that has contributed to 'rape culture'.

Paty
The point of those studies specifically concludes that there is no concrete evidence linking DESENSITIZATION and propensity to violence. Sorry for straying off topic.

Re: The poster desensitizing people.

As I mentioned before, I was TREMENDOUSLY affected as a kid by a graphic movie rape scene, so it isn't difficult to imagine some people being influenced by such a "shocking" poster. The thing we can't do is completely discount the possible affect it might have, especially on kids. I assume that this thing is plastered all over movie theaters and big cities, and the subtle psychological impact on young minds is impossible to judge but almost certainly exists. I'm not trying to sound like a "Save The Children" extremist, and I know (as others have mentioned) that it's basically impossible to measure that impact, especially in degrees of severity. Just call it a gut feeling . . . my instinct, if you will.

Nadine,

Sending feces through the mail is a federal offense. Besides, I hear that personally delivering a pile of poo into an unguarded shoe is much more satisfying.

Not that I'd know anything about that.

Kballs, we dont have no feds here. Godtopus save Queenie!

The number of personal stories shared here does not surprise me, but it makes me a little sad. The overall tone of the conversation, on the other hand, gives me great hope and makes me proud to be a member of this community.

Thanks to everyone for sharing. I did my mouthing off in the posts regarding the hideous movie poster, so I'll just say that I'm glad we can at least talk about rape culture and the problems it poses for everyone in our society without the flame wars so often found in these types of discussions.

And re: the chicken or the egg question.

I think that completely misses the point. The poster doesn't come before, and thus cause rape culture. But it perpetuates it, and that is still a problem.

The fact this these things are still so damned common in this day and age is horrifying to me.

I know this is still common. My mother, my ex-wife, several of my female friends... rape or attempted rape is a reality that they've had to deal with. This very real risk does shape their behavior - of course it does. My sister is worried when she goes running in the early morning. I'm aware of their difficulty even if I don't share it myself, and I find it appalling and disgusting.

I'm very lucky. I'm 6', male, and in pretty good shape. I'm not a target and I don't live in fear. I can freely walk almost anywhere without a second thought - the way everyone ought to be able to. And it burns me up that others cannot.

Posters like ISOYG's are unforgivable. Like the torture porn genre in general, posters like this are desensitizing people to the horror and trauma that victims experience. I want to see the movie fail on principle, regardless of how well skilled a production it might be. I refuse to give my money to support the brain-dead cretins who thought that sexualizing the victim would help sell tickets to their movie. They're doubtless right about selling the tickets, but brain-dead nonetheless since they so obviously miss the point.

Now the trickier part to express... I share some of Kballs' experiences. I think it's VERY difficult for men today to know how to act towards women. On the one hand, we have media showing us copious examples of how the nice guy never gets the girl; women want "bad boys", we're told. On the extreme end of this spectrum, we have (expletive too long to print) posters like this that objectify and sexualize rape victims. On the less extreme and far more acceptable end, we're taught as men that women like confidence above all - if you're not sure of yourself, you don't stand a chance.

I have no intention of in any way defending rape culture. It's wrong and it's deeply harmful. But what I think might not be apparent to the women who suffer as a result of this culture is that a lot of men suffer in a different way. I don't mean to compare how this affects us, because obviously it's not the same thing at all and I don't mean to imply that it is. Men have it easier in this regard. That's simply true, and regrettable. Still, this rape culture makes it damned hard for nice guys to know how to act, which is a shame. A lot of nice guys get confused by the mixed messages our media teach us, and end up being shy and withdrawn around women, at least until we unlearn what we were taught.

I came back to read all the rest of the posts, because I really think this discussion is interesting, and mostly civil. I would like to say, regarding all the "how come yer not payin' attention to male rape" cards thrown in the air:

I don't think anyone here is saying men can't or aren't raped, or that it's not that big a deal when they are. I'm sure it's quite devastating, in no small part due to the fact that most men don't expect to be raped, so the idea that they were made powerless in that moment is possibly even more earth-shattering. In fact, maybe Dr. P. could devote a post entirely to male sexual assault, what statistics we have and what statistics we could stand to collect better, and how we feel male rape is marginalized, underreported, etc.

But THIS post, by Dr. P., is about the culture surrounding female sexual assault, as emphasized by, and perpetuated by, but NOT caused by, the recently released poster for ISOYG.

So let me ask you this: when was the last time you saw a poster of an attractive man who'd clearly just been raped as a way of enticing you to see a movie?

Exactly.

That's exactly it: the poster doesn't CAUSE rape, but it perpetuates this horrible culture of how assault and rape are represented in film.

And it's just not this poster. That's the whole point. We're BOMBARDED every single day with visuals that basically tell people that it's okay to harass and get all up on a woman. We get beer commercials of men whistling and cat calling on scantily clad women. We get those disgusting American Apparel ads where women are making 'fuck me' faces. Countless ads where women are shown to be submissive, where men are dominating and we're telling them that it's OK. Perpetuating this macho bullshit culture that tells men that you HAVE to be manly and ogle a pretty girl. That tell girls that it's OK to let this behavior get by because men don't know any better. The basic message is this: it's OK to treat women as objects. In fact, you're not a real man unless you do.

It's incredibly insulting not just to women, but to men as well. And posters like that one just perpetuate this cycle. It eats into young people's brains and stays there, and we grow up to be afraid of everything or blaming the victim.

RE foolsage: "I think it's VERY difficult for men today to know how to act towards women. On the one hand, we have media showing us copious examples of how the nice guy never gets the girl; women want 'bad boys,' we're told. ... On the less extreme and far more acceptable end, we're taught as men that women like confidence above all - if you're not sure of yourself, you don't stand a chance... Still, this rape culture makes it damned hard for nice guys to know how to act, which is a shame. A lot of nice guys get confused by the mixed messages our media teach us, and end up being shy and withdrawn around women, at least until we unlearn what we were taught."

I sympathize with your confusion, but I'll make it easy: Think about your mom or your wife or your daughter (or the daughter you might have one day). How you want any of them to be treated in general is how you should treat women. It isn't even about sex, it's about respect and courtesy. You can treat other males with respect and courtesy, right? Same thing with women. You wouldn't stare at another guy's crotch while you're talking to him. Therefore, don't stare at her tits while you're talking to a woman. You wouldn't grab another guy's ass. Well, surprise, most women don't like being grabbed, either. Basically, you can't really go wrong erring on the side of courtesy and being (to use an old-fashioned word) gentlemanly.

You can safely ignore 98% of the shit you hear/see/read in the media. These are the same people who would have you believe that Donald Trump is a financial genius and Kim Kardashian is a "star." I can assure you they are equally knowledgeable about what women want and how they want to be treated. And (this is my opinion, but I'm sure there are others that share it) women who use the term "bad boys" are goddam idiots. These are the same brain donors who fuck married guys, hook up with ex-convicts or drug dealers or just colossal assholes in general, then whine about how they can't find a good man and why do they always attract losers. I don't know what their problem is (daddy issues or security issues or some fucked-up form of martyr complex), but not all women are like that. I'd like to think most aren't, but sometimes I wonder.

That "confidence" thing - also bullshit. I'm convinced most people don't even know what they mean when they say it. Very often, for too many people, "confident" is just another word for "asshole," ie, people think they're demonstrating the former when they're really a textbook case of the latter.

Slash is right. I think a lot of these women who claim they like the 'bad boys' or the assholes...well they've just been so jaded by this entire culture that they think that's what they should go after. That it's acceptable to be catcalled, that it's OK for men to be all over them, because boys will be boys. And they grow up hearing that this is acceptable behavior. It's all part of the same damned thing.

Figgy, Seconded.

I love you guys, for real. This could have become an ugly pissing contest and it didn't and for that I love all of you and love being a Pajiban.

Foolsage, I understand you, and yeah, my brother is the same, he can go (sometimes literally. Sometimes) Unmolested on his day to day routines, even just running across the road to the store.
Me? I'm not that big and sometimes crossing the busy dual carriageway to that same store freaks me out SO MUCH because I worry I could so easily be dragged into a car.

It sucks.
And is why I'm getting a fucking HUGE dog

Whew!

Okay folks, I think most of us got in at least a few volleys on this thread.

But just for a moment we should all calm down a little bit. It's wonderful to be so driven and passionate behind issues, but we cannot go full bore 24/7 or we risk self-overload. Not to mention that this subject is far too heavy.

Before we go back into battle, what say we all partake in a little group hug- at least in this format? Later on we can make s'mores around a bonfire of these god damned movie posters and sing raunchy rock anthems together.

Who's with me?

You know, bleujayone, if you're tired of this thread, you're welcome to go read another one. If other people want to continue in it, that's their right as well.

Fling away Nadine. Fling away.

Also, this is the first thing I've commented on after reading this site pretty regularly for over a year. I might try doing it more often now.

Ya'll are very nice people. Keep it up.

Godotopus, I love every fucking one of you right now. I saw the comments had jumped up, and I got a sick feeling in my gut, but instead, it's just a wonderfully smart and respectful continuation of the topic. No bait from trolls, just brain-food from different persepectives.

I read an incredibly depressing article on the way home last night. Apparently (the article was in the dodgy free newspaper handed out to commuters, so, grains of salt must be liberally applied), a recent survey found that 98% of people believe that a rape victim brought it on themselves in some way, either because of how they dressed, or their behaviour.
98%.
Even knowing the media's habit of 're-translating' scientific results, and with no idea of how that study was conducted, that's a terrifying statistic. That's what we're up against.
Thing is, I'm a feminist, and my mother was brutally raped. I've been subject to sexual harrassment. I KNOW that attitude is bullshit. Offensive, utterly disgusting bullshit.
But it's so damn prevalent that I sometimes have to consciously stop myself from agreeing with it. And there's been times in my life, when I was younger, when the tide of opinion around me has been so strong, that I have joined in.
I'm incredibly ashamed of myself for doing that, and I'm so sorry that I have. I guess I'm up against my own weakness as well.

Hug Bunny!

I consider the biggest offense accompanying harassment/assault/rape its centrality to female's lives to be the fucking time and energy it consumes. I want my daughter to devote her time and energy to self-cultivation, not self-preservation. I want her to be able to walk around without having her mind cluttered with a bunch of bullshit calculus about where to walk, when to walk there, whether or not to wear her walkman, what to wear, who to avoid making eye contact with, who to speak to and who to ignore, etc. You know, just as my son would. This shit is a waste of precious fucking time.

I've never been raped, but I have been called a cunt, had my behind and boobs grabbed, been asked to help somebody masturbate on a prank phone call (I was 12 and babysitting), been groped by a guy pretty aggressively after passing out drunk in his room, been catcalled more times than I can count in every city I've lived in, had dudes yelling out of cars since I was 12 years old (and I seriously had a boy's body), had an uncle make comments on my figure since I was 11 years old, had my appearance commented on (in a creepy way) by a boss, been threatened with rape, been propositioned sexually by a stranger, and been subjected to countless creepy exchanges with guys I liked and disliked.

I'm an attorney, have always had short hair, went to a Seven Sisters college, and am considered a serious person. I can't even imagine the shit legitimate bombshells are subjected to.

Thank you, Dr. Pisaster, for writing a truly eloquent column. The prolific and intelligent response shows how deeply it resonated with Pajibans of all stripes.

And because I can't leave well enough alone, I'd say that jM should consider some of the comments here for EE even if they're not of the usual humurous tone, but she might think I was pandaring to her. (See what I did there by changing the "e" to an "a"? Because, you know, jM likes pan... What? Really? OK, I'll show myself out.)

/hides in closet

Group hug indeed, thank you all for being so mature and thoughtful about this subject.

First, I'm sorry I missed the this discussion today. I just finished the rest of the comments and I hope I'm not too late for the group hug and a leftover s'mores because you people are truly fantastic and I'm so happy to have found this place.

Second, Nadine, re: I've stepped between a friend of mine and a dude about to smack her in the face. I'm 5'10 and have filled the protector role a number of times for my friends, even while I've been very scared myself. I've been punched in the face on three different occasions by different men while defending my friends and once while defending myself. The result? I really advocate self-defense courses or martial arts for women.

I wish more men would step up in those situations. As others have pointed out, men like our awesome male Pajibans, are the ones who can really make a difference in society by calling out other men and reacting to their actions like we do to any socially unacceptable behavior.

Smokey, WORD, for no reason other than my timetable will be more convenient, once I make the move (in two weeks! EXCITED) to live 125 miles away, with my boyfriend, I'm already planning to take a martial arts class and start going with the BF to the gym. Not just for health but because living with your parents, even when you've had horrible break ins like ours, you develop a certain expectation of safety.

This is unwise if only because no matter how safe your BF/GF/ Hubbie/wifey/partner etc might make you feel, there is, for me any way, something comforting about knowing that if a Big Bad Scary thing happens, you can call mum and dad and have them never be more than a few minutes away(especially when they can and will drive like COMPLETE LUNATICS in the event they think you're in trouble [my dad once RAMMED A CAB OFF THE ROAD when the taxi driver thought my dad wanted to race when my dad was racing home after hearing our 6 year old brother had been missing for 2 hours-we later found him and a cop on the scene 'discovered' he'd had a squad car nearby the car accident who 'saw' the cab driver try to ram my dad off the road and just lose to the bigger ca])

So yeah- self defence classes are what I'm going to be ALL ABOUT.
Also in the UK it's legal to carry knives up to a certain length.

So, there's that.

But for now GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!!

If you want to learn about the I-VAWA (International Violence Against Women Act) floating around Congress, and hopefully sign the petition, check this out:

http://www.vday.org/node/1798

It seemed somehow appropriate to include.

Thanks Aconite, I too shall pass this on.

this article made me cry. Specifically the parts about getting harassed on the street, in bars, even by friends in high school or on my college campuses. (thankfully never in the workplace). My boyfriends and girlfriends have all loved my body and it's generous proportions (i am a 32H bra size, very small bone structure, 5'3"). My current boyfriend has real trouble understanding why i insist on being so modest all the time; i won't wear short skirts w/o opaque tights or leggings, no shorts ever, and no shirt w/o a tank top under it whether or not it shows cleavage. He doesn't know what it was like to be a)raised protestant church-going christian and b)to have been harassed in all the ways you've described. it's not just scary, it's life-changing. wearing a tank top and a skirt on the street get me creepers in cars pulling up next to me asking my name three times. even in jeans, i get car-fulls of mexican workers yelling, whistling, cat-calling... It's disturbing. I don't blame my SO for loving my body, and i don't blame him for not understanding. he has no sisters and no cousins old enough to have encountered anything like this. I'm not sure he'd understand if he witnessed it.

When did Pajiba turn into Jezebel?

So this is where the Jezebel splitters now meet!

Honestly?
You get harassed everywhere you walk?

Where in the hell do you live?
I walk alone, made up, red lipstick, whatever length skirt I so choose, downtown in the busiest areas, with what I have been told are above-average looks.

I have had a comment made to me about my looks ONCE in the past year.
I have never had someone approach me for any reason whatsoever (aside from the occasional "Can you spare some change", but nothing about me being female, them being male, and the idea of that meaning something is going to happen)

Nor do I know of any woman, girl, or teenager who has complained about such a thing happening.

The only times people have been overtly sexual in ways that have made me uncomfortable were all online.