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I Don’t Wanna Sound Like a Queer or Nothing, but I’d Kinda Like to Make Out with You Tonight

By Dr. Pisaster | Posted Under Pajiba Dirty Talk | Comments (56)



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A couple of years ago my little brother got married. His four groomsmen were all college buddies of his. These groomsmen spent most of the rehearsal dinner making jokes about losing their chances of ever being with James (my brother) now that he was getting married (and to a woman, no less). At the reception, the DJ announced a game where guests paid a dollar to dance with either the bride or groom, and I’m pretty sure that every single person that paid to dance with my brother was male. I’ve seen similar behavior between my boyfriend and his male friends. They frequently hug each other for deliberately awkward periods of time, sit on each other’s laps, and just generally make jokes about being gay for each other. It seems that as homophobia fades, younger straight men feel more comfortable being physically affectionate with each other, though not quite comfortable enough to do it unironically. Playing up the homoeroticism in their interactions for humor allows them to display intimacy in a way that doesn’t call their sexuality into question. None of my personal acquaintances, however, have taken this idea quite as far as some British college men.

In a recent study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, sociologists at Bath University looked at the phenomenon of kissing between self-identified heterosexual men. The researchers conducted in-depth interviews with 145 men enrolled at several British colleges and Universities and shorter interviews of another 53 students. This sample size isn’t huge, but it’s still pretty big for a study that uses personal interviews. The students ranged in age from 16 to 25. All of the men surveyed identified themselves as strictly heterosexual. Participants were asked whether they had ever kissed another man on the lips, and if they had for how long and under what circumstances. They were also asked about their response to said kisses, such as the emotional or erotic meaning behind the kiss. In Britain, as in North America, physical displays of affection between men have traditionally been looked at askance, and yet it turns out that guy-on-guy kissing is really common in British institutes of higher learning. A full 89% of the students interviewed reported having kissed another man on at least one occasion. Forty-eight reported kissing another man for an extended period of time. The researchers initially suspected that athletes would have higher rates of same-sex kissing, because their participation in sports effectively gives them enough “masculinity points” to get away with behavior that might otherwise lead to them being called out as “gay,” but in fact non-athletes kissed other men at roughly the same rate as athletes. Athletes were more likely, however, to engage in kissing of extended duration (i.e. not just a peck but full on making out).

The reasons the men gave for kissing often had to do with circumstances involving heightened emotion. Nearly always the other man they were kissing was a close friend or teammate. Athletes reported frequently kissing each other on the lips after scoring a goal. Men were also likely to kiss each other during nights of revelry in a local bar or club (in these instances, alcohol often acted as a lubricant, so to speak, but the men interviewed insisted alcohol consumption wasn’t the reason they kissed their friends). The interviewees all looked at this behavior as perfectly normal male bonding, at least within the context of their schools. (Several of the men noted that while they felt fine kissing other men at school, they’d never do it at home for fear of being thought of as gay.) Of the 25 men who reported not having kissed another man, none were opposed to the idea. In fact, one joked with the researcher that when his friends found out he’d never kissed another man, they would probably take action to remedy the situation. He texted the interviewer later to say, “I’m in the majority now.”

Most of the students interviewed indicated that when they kissed another man it wasn’t in any way sexual. Rather, they saw it as a way to demonstrate affection towards their good friends. The behavior seems to have started as an amusing public display of friendship, but it had also moved into the men’s private lives. Several respondents reported kissing their friends when just hanging out together, rather than while on the field or out at a club. One man even described taking comfort from kissing and hugging a male friend (in said friend’s bed) the night after a bad breakup (but in a totally not gay way, of course). Even when the kisses were for extended duration, the men didn’t see them as sexual. Sustained kisses were mostly restricted to bars and parties and seem to be done more for humor and shock value than shorter kisses (or in a few cases to encourage women to make out with each other too). The men didn’t really care if outside observers assumed the kisses were sexual, but to them they were just bros being affectionate with each other and playing around. In fact, they cared so little about how others perceived them, that the men often posted pictures of themselves kissing on social networking sites such as Facebook.

It may seem strange that straight men would behave this way with each other, but few people bat an eye when straight women do the same things. Plenty of straight women platonically hold hands, cuddle, and even kiss their close friends (women kissing each other to turn male watchers on is a whole other topic). It’s less taboo for women to be physically affectionate with each other, since physical affection is seen as an inherently female trait, but there’s no reason to think that men derive any less pleasure from physical intimacy with their friends. It’s encouraging that young men in Britain are beginning to feel comfortable bucking traditional norms of masculine behavior. Hopefully, as homophobia continues to decline in the US, men on this side of the Atlantic will feel similarly secure in the future.

Dr. Pisaster has a doctorate in biophysics, not actually anything sexy. She does however enjoy having sex, reading about sex, and talking about sex. Especially when she’s had a little whiskey.









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Comments

wat

Posted by: Dangerous Dave at November 16, 2010 4:14 PM

That is just so goddamn hot. God, I hope that trend continues. Nay, escalates.

*fingers crossed*

*boudoir*

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 16, 2010 4:16 PM

Also, most excellent Orgazmo reference.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 16, 2010 4:18 PM

"Plenty of straight women platonically hold hands, cuddle, and even kiss their close friends"

I guess I'm an oddball since I don't do that. Are we talking about grown women or pre-teens? My 11-yo daughter hugs everyone that will let her, but I haven't ever really seen grown women (or men) behave that way.

Posted by: elsie at November 16, 2010 4:19 PM

I kiss my dad on the cheeks.

I hug my brothers and close male friends.

I think there's a difference between how you interact with different male counterparts. Some you can share emotional, physical interaction. Some you can't.

It all still boils down to each person's comfort level.

Posted by: Fredo at November 16, 2010 4:20 PM

There's a cultural aspect to this, too... my sister's ex-husband & in-laws, from the Philippines, kissed everybody on the mouth, always. Whereas we hug all the time, anybody who will let us near them, but as far as kissing goes, it's a cheek thing for us.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 16, 2010 4:23 PM

What AvB said. HOT!

Posted by: Scully at November 16, 2010 4:26 PM

My wife constantly marvels that my best friends and I are always telling each other, "I love you" when we get off the phone. In the exact same tone that we tell our spouses, siblings, and parents. "Talk to you later, buddy. Love ya'." Over and over every time.

You're definately right about men wanting to show affection for each other in safe ways, and ironically being physically affectionate is becoming more and more acceptable. I have grabbed my friends by the face and layed kisses on them, and they have done the same to me. Not even two nights ago I had this exchange with a friend:

Friend: When I see you again, I'm giving you a reach-around.
Me: Cool. Wait, that's not cool. That means you're fucking my ass.
Friend: Yeah. With a reach around.
Me: Can't argue with that.
Friend: Nor should you.

In fact, the only friends I have who aren't cool with it are those who are powerfully homophobic, or those who have had explicitly homosexual encounters. The two friends who are most adverse to hugging other men are the two friends who have received oral sex from other men.

I think the cultural shift is great. I don't think everything needs to be macho, homophobic bullshit. I love my friends and I'm an affectionate guy. I can't think of a single reason I should be ashamed or embarrased by any of that.

Great article.

Posted by: superasetne at November 16, 2010 4:28 PM

Yeah right.

Posted by: your roommate at November 16, 2010 4:34 PM

AvB - it happens much more than people realize, I think. I've kissed several bro-friends in different circumstances, at the bar for funssies, to get a hot woman to make out with a friend, things like that.

The addition of "Love ya" to male friends is increasing, I've noticed. Two of my friend's wives call us out every time we tell each other "Love ya, too, sir!" It's just a thing now. It's becoming socially acceptable and it's how it should be.

Has it caused awkward situations with people around us? Yes. Do we giggle like little girls? YES.

Another fantastic article.

Posted by: Zerath at November 16, 2010 4:38 PM

I found out very recently that I was recreating a traumatic experience for a friend when engaging in this style of behavior. See, his best friend and I, who rarely interacted, used to use the same joke (not knowing the other did) about being a cheap date when going to the movies. It also turns out we both used to squeeze this mutual friend's leg, cup his chest, or slap him on the ass as a thank you if he covered the cost of tickets and popcorn. When he complained, both of us would use a variation of "with the way you're dressed, you're asking for it." I stopped doing it when he started crying after I called him Sugartits.

The fact that two heterosexual men with limited interactions were both unknowinlgy using the same physical gag to jokingly and ironically show appreciation for a trip to the movies sure seems to fall in line with this study. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it sure does suggest it's more than just a couple of crazy writer types taking a joke too far.

Posted by: Robert at November 16, 2010 4:45 PM

gay.

Posted by: gp at November 16, 2010 4:46 PM

gay.

Posted by: gp at November 16, 2010 4:46 PM

Whatever, man. You're g--

Oh wait.

Love ya, man.

Posted by: coryo at November 16, 2010 4:50 PM

You wish, gp, you wish.

Posted by: admin at November 16, 2010 4:52 PM

More of this please! To all men, YES, this is good and totally er...unsexual in anyway...so do it a lot, and in public...and in front of me. Thanks!

Posted by: Totoro at November 16, 2010 4:55 PM

That is a rather strange story. Maybe I'm to old for any of this (early 30s), but I never witnessed straight men making out. Not to speak of never even thinking about doing it myself.

It's not that I'd feel disgusted by it, but the image of kissing another man just does not hold any attraction.

I generally a reserved about touching other people (even those I like), so that could be a factor (which probably explains my problems with women). I hug friends, yes. But I always feel uncomfortable when I do.

Posted by: FabMax at November 16, 2010 5:02 PM

I, too, applaud the move away from labeling any male-male physical touch "gay", but purely because of the study sample (self-identified heterosexual collage age males), does nobody else think many of these survey respondents were messing about with their answers? This is the same demographic that made Jackass in 3D a huge hit and think the best fun to be had on a Saturday night is putting cling film over the toilet bowl.

Posted by: PaddyDog at November 16, 2010 5:03 PM

I'm with PaddyDog.

The numbers seem too good to be true. As a 23 year old man I can honestly say I've never seen two men kiss that aren't gay.

Even then it seems to either disgust or enrage my demographic.

I've told my close male friends I love them before, but I've never gone so far as to give them a big wet kiss on the lips.

Posted by: Dangerous Dave at November 16, 2010 5:17 PM

You pigs!

Posted by: Jay at November 16, 2010 5:17 PM

-_-

Posted by: Mick J at November 16, 2010 5:28 PM

I'm all for displaying affection. Boys, girls, friends, lovers, I don't care. This is a cold and ugly world and we need all the hugs and kisses we can get. (I might be feeling a little vulnerable at the moment but I'm completely serious)

Posted by: Pants at November 16, 2010 5:30 PM

Oh, Jay. You know we'd love to watch you make out with a dude.

Seriously, though, I do think it's great (if true) that men are becoming more able to physically express (non-sexual) affection for one another. People need physical human contact. Well, except for the ones who don't. I've grabbed the hands of both girl and boy friends, I've snuggled with both while watching a movie. Touching is not always sexual, and the sooner we as a society learn that, the sooner we will become less paranoid and less homophobic. Hooray! That sounds like a win for everyone!

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 16, 2010 5:37 PM

RE "Plenty of straight women platonically hold hands, cuddle, and even kiss their close friends"

Um, which ones? Hold hands, maybe. Cuddle, as in sitting on the couch watching a movie? Maybe. Kissing, on the lips? Nuh-uh. In 44 years I have never seen close female friends kissing each other on the lips as a demonstration of friendship, not even when drunk.

And I've never seen non-homosexual men do any of the above, in a serious, "We're friends, let's hold hands" manner, except for that picture of Bush holding hands with the Saudi guy. But I think that's just customary when you're the president of the United States and the Saudi guy has all your oil.

Posted by: Slash at November 16, 2010 6:28 PM

Another good part of this move towards acceptance: we can finally leave the word "gay" as for insults of really bad stuff.

Like "That new Vince Vaughn movie is gay. In fact, just about every Vince Vaughn movie is gay."

Posted by: Fredo at November 16, 2010 6:45 PM

Yay! I've been hugging everything in sight for years, my group of friends have begrudgingly accepted that. Now I see I was a trendsetter.

Posted by: Ari at November 16, 2010 6:46 PM

For those doubting the article due to not witnessing such action personally, we must keep in mind this is a) college and b) Britain.

Of course, the first thing that popped in my mind was "I wonder if this shift in behavior took place before or after John Barrowman got on the map."

It just seems like the logical extension: Captain Jack causes men to want to make out with each other.

See, science.

/total attempt at revving Anna von Beav's engines

Posted by: Vermillion at November 16, 2010 7:04 PM

Dangerous Dave,

it gets better.

Posted by: schmerpes at November 16, 2010 7:46 PM

For those doubting the article due to not witnessing such action personally, we must keep in mind this is a) college and b) Britain.

Also, it's Bath University. I have a few... personal... friends who go there and the boys there take gay chicken far further than anyone I've seen at other universities. It doesn't matter if they're in a pub and drunk or in class and sober, they will not stop until someone gives in. Occassionally I have had to persuade new friends that no, the guy I'm dating is not in a relationship with his best friend, despite the fact that his hand is now creeping up his thigh.

It's all just good fun!

Posted by: squeeziee at November 16, 2010 7:56 PM

*Buys Plane Tickets to Bath*

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at November 16, 2010 9:00 PM

....

Mmmm, Barrowman.

It's totally working, Vermillion.

Mmmmm, science.

*buys ticket to Bath with LE*

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 16, 2010 9:43 PM

I missed the part that said this was happening in Britain. So, it's men with hot accents making out with one another?

*jumps into Lwae's luggage*

Posted by: MelBivDevoe at November 16, 2010 9:53 PM

I saw this in action at my godson's wedding reception recently. Several of his completely heterosexual male friends slow-danced with each other, and there were some kisses exchanged.

I asked my godson about it, and he said assured me that they were straight, but they just enjoyed the affection, and they didn't have dates, and they wanted to dance.

It weirded me out a little at first, and then I got really jealous that I was born too damn early.

Posted by: Drake at November 16, 2010 11:27 PM

This seems fun! I'm all up for it. MAKE OUT SOME MORE, BOYS.

Posted by: figgy at November 17, 2010 12:19 AM

I remember reading an article for an anthropology class a few years ago about mutual masturbation in British boarding schools. Apparently, it's just one of those things that happens in some places-- totally unspoken social code, and no higher percentage of the boys who engage in the masturbation identify as gay than in the larger population.

I think it's because they're on that island. And the driving on the left-- that's got to have something to do with it.

Posted by: That Girl at November 17, 2010 1:29 AM

Hmmmm. If ONLY I knew someone who went to boarding school in the UK to weigh in on this....

Posted by: Lindsey with an 'e' at November 17, 2010 4:30 AM

I'm pretty sure this is a cultural thing. My American friends were always weirded out by men hugging and kissing hello in most of Europe. And when I shared a flat (sorry, apartment) with a Dutch girl in Boston people always looked at us funny if we held hands on the street.
Let's face it, the US is a hypocritical prude. Introduce topless/nude beaches, legal prostitution, nudity on TV and in advertising... then let the good times roll.

Posted by: cinekat at November 17, 2010 4:35 AM

@Squeezie ~ thanks for that, because for the life of me I couldn't make head nor tail of this. There's no way two guys can kiss eachother on the mouth, lingering, unless they're gay or playing chicken. And I have my doubts about the chicken.

Substitute 'kissing on the mouth' for 'oral sex' and try and telling me its not gay. I saw a video of 2 guys playing 'chicken' on YouPorn last month and while it looked genuine to me, it was also apparent the two guys were being played by the guy holding the video camera.

All in all, I think either these researchers got played by the people they were interviewing, or it suits their agenda. If a male and female have a prolonged kiss on the mouth does anyone really believe it's not sexual? Only their dumb-ass partners watching, perhaps. "It's just a birthday kiss!"

www.thefacebookaffair.blogspot.com

Posted by: JoJo at November 17, 2010 8:31 AM

It may be cultural, or even regional, but is it also generational? I've never had the urge to kiss my male friends nor have I ever seen straight male friends kiss each other. I have told my best friends that I love them, but not as a regular habit when signing off the phone.

Interesting article. Sounds like Britain is returning to the days of Velvet Goldmine. Can the re-rise of glam be too far behind?

Posted by: TylerDFC at November 17, 2010 8:34 AM

as an expatriate in the UK I have to agree that europe is much more open to male-male affection. Though the continent seems to accept it in all forms, in the UK it is largely in a blokey, drinky-dare kind of way, some of the guys who engage in it ironically then use gay slurs. go figure.

That being said, I want this to stop. How am I supposed to know who's playing on my team if all the hets start mackin on one another. First you take our fashion, you take our gentrifying neighborhoods, and now you're taking our pda, *cracks whip* DAMNIT GO BACK TO BEING BORING MISSIONARY UTILIZING LEAVE IT TO BEAVER PEOPLE.

If this keeps up, I'm going to have to start feeling up breasts in an unironic way just to keep ahead of the trends.

Posted by: Yankee Sodomite at November 17, 2010 8:45 AM

Sounds like Britain is returning to the days of Velvet Goldmine. Can the re-rise of glam be too far behind?

TylerDFC, you just made me the happiest girl alive.

Yankee Sodomite, I offer you my breasts for your unironic feeling up pleasure. Or displeasure. Whichever.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 17, 2010 9:17 AM

Is there any info on if this is "We just won the 'football' tournament and I'm gonna grab my buddy's face and kiss him on the lips in excitement" vs "My buddy and I are gonna french kiss for an hour in the corner, just because we're buds?"

I kinda suspect that it's the former, and we're making it into the later. I've kissed my mom, but it's been an affectionate, family-style kiss. I ran into a friend on the street yesterday and we kissed hello, but again, it was on the cheek. I have good friends, who are also gay men as well as I am, and we'll kiss hello or good-bye, and it'll even be on the lips, but it's not a sexual thing. Are talking that level of affection (which I'm ok with) or have the guys in England gone "Girls Gone Wild" on us?

Posted by: Rowen at November 17, 2010 9:31 AM

Of course, the first thing that popped in my mind was "I wonder if this shift in behavior took place before or after John Barrowman got on the map."

It just seems like the logical extension: Captain Jack causes men to want to make out with each other.

As someone still working through Season 3 of Doctor Who, allow me to melt.
::moisture::

I saw my college boyfriend kiss boys in college; we played Spin the Bottle drunk at a party my freshman year. My favorite bit was when he kissed my roomie's boyfriend, then pushed him away yelling, "Dude, you bit my lip!"

A mutual friend got married this summer, and all of the groomsmen were a bit "gay for each other". It is almost sweet really, because although it is ironic in a way, I think it stems from genuine affection.

And yes, as a heterosexual woman I have kissed and cuddled many women, just as a sign of affection. Ever held a girlfriend after a bad breakup, when she just wants to cry and you just hold and rock her? Is that gay?

Posted by: Patty O'Green at November 17, 2010 9:41 AM

It's always a pleasure, they make the best pillows ever. By the very nature though, They are for me funbags of a different variety than I imagine they are for most men.

Posted by: Yankee Sodomite at November 17, 2010 9:42 AM

or have the guys in England gone "Girls Gone Wild" on us?

I'm ... okay with that.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 17, 2010 9:47 AM

I'm an English male and I kiss boys all the time, and it doesn't mean I'm... oh. Oh, wait.

Carry on, everyone.

Posted by: Caspar at November 17, 2010 10:42 AM

Anna,

As a gay man, I'm ok and not ok with that. I like the idea of guys being able to be more affectionate with each other, but at the same time this feels like when the touchy feeley straight guys come to the gay bars, rub up against you, and then start yammering on about their girlfriends and how much in love they are.

There is also apart of me that has an image of REALLY HOT 23 year old British boys tonguing each other, which is PROBABLY not how it looks in real life.

Posted by: Rowen at November 17, 2010 10:44 AM

@Rowen (with advance apologies to anyone who is british)

I have found a curious thing about people in england during my 3 years living in london thus far, While in the states we have the whole spectrum of attractiveness, from OMFG must... touch.. now.. to meh, I guess they'll do especially after a few drinks, to well.. Harry Knowles post chainsaw shave, the UK seems to kind of skip the middleground, there are unfathomably attractive folk here, the sort that make you unable to stop staring in the street, but for everyone one of these chiseled gods that walk around, there is another who looks like.. well frankly a bulldog. Sometimes they're kind of oddly cuddly looking, but mostly you're afraid they'll bite off your finger.

Posted by: Yankee Sodmite at November 17, 2010 11:03 AM

Oh, sure, Rowen. It's probably akin, as Dr. P. said, to straight girls in bars who rub up against each other for attention (usually from boys, and usually ending up the same way).

That's just my lascivious side talkin'. She just WILL NOT STOP, sometimes. (Also, maybe a little my feminist side who thinks that maybe if boys started being exploited like that, perhaps someone would put a stop to it, which... well, let's face it, there are so many reasons that will never happen. My feminist side, she's a bit of an idealist at times.)

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 17, 2010 12:07 PM

I really hope I'm wrong, but I don't expect the American culture to change quickly on this, since it's based mostly on fear.

Most Americans are absolutely terrified of their own impulses for affection. Our culture preaches to us that a feeling of closeness to someone must be sexual, but also that sexual feelings between people of the same sex are the worst thing since terrorism and Nazis... it's sort of a recipe for neurotic behavior.

Too many can only process those feelings of affection as sexual attraction. But they still have these impulses, occasionally directed at someone of the same sex. In the absence of an ability to self-analyze, they bottle them up or find incredibly unhealthy ways to act on them.

Fraternities are a HUGE case in point.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at November 17, 2010 12:17 PM

Most women of my age that I know have kissed women. And not to get men's attention either. Just...kissing. It seems to be quite normal in Europe. As for men...well, it depends, but yeah I think it's becoming more common. And I say "hell yeah!" I'm a big fan of throwing the labels away and just do as you please.

Posted by: Joker at November 17, 2010 1:33 PM

Man, the next Pajibacon is going to be a ton of women surrounding like five guys, demanding they commence to jigglin'. Those scientists should witness THAT.

Then the taco dip and little wooden letter tiles come out...

Posted by: Vermillion at November 17, 2010 4:57 PM

Vermillion, thank you for reminding me of my favorite ATHF episode.

As for me, I'm in theater, so I don't think my opinion counts for shit.

Carry on.

AvB, CALL ME

Posted by: Ian at November 17, 2010 5:17 PM

breasts are like poke'mon. I don't want to, but I just gotta catch em all.

Posted by: Yankee Sodomite at November 17, 2010 9:29 PM

I lived in Europe as a teenager and got used to holding hands with friends and walking arm in arm everywhere. Hugs and kisses were exchanged with everyone each time we met. Boys, girls, everyone. When I came back to the US it was total culture shock to realize that NO ONE touched each other unless they were dating. I hated it!
I'm affection and touchy feeley by nature so it took me a while to get used to these strange people who were so afraid of a touch. Fortunately for me, I have an awesome group of friends who are pretty international or just a lot more relaxed so it's no big deal. I'm all for people showing their feelings for people they care about. Whenever and wherever they want to!

Posted by: trixie at November 18, 2010 1:01 AM

Oh, I'LL CALL YOU, Ian.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 18, 2010 8:18 AM

Especially if you're going to make out with a boy.

Posted by: Anna von Beav at November 18, 2010 8:20 AM