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Dealing with the Sex-Drive Disparity In Your Relationship

By Dr. Pisaster | Posted Under Pajiba Dirty Talk | Comments (119)



unhappy-couple-6.jpg

In my family, history is passed down orally and like many families it’s the women who are the ones who keep track of and pass on family lore. This history, then, is not quite unbiased. Case in point: In the second decade of the last century, my great grandmother came to suspect her husband was cheating on her. (My great-grandmother was named May Maria Oastrander, née Betsing. My great-grandfather has always just been “her husband.”) One night she followed him on a train from Detroit to Chicago and then hid in the boot of his car as he drove from the station to meet his mistress. Having caught him red-handed and being a strong-willed woman who would not accept being treated in such a way, she divorced him, at a time when divorce was still enough of a scandal to make the Detroit front page news. What almost gets lost in this family history are the personal dynamics that led my great-grandfather to do what he did. My great-grandmother believed that once a month was “enough for any man.” It would seem that my great-grandfather disagreed. Whether his infidelity was the result of a weakness character or of an unbearable situation that he was powerless to change is impossible to know, since his side of the story didn’t survive through four generations, but having been in a relationship with someone who’s sex drive was dramatically lower than mine, I can feel some sympathy for his position (foreshadowing: this column is going to go from amused to ragey in about two paragraphs). As scandalous as it was for my great-grandmother to divorce my great-grandfather over infidelity, it would have been impossible for him to leave her simply because the two of them were sexually incompatible. I bring this up because while divorce is more common and our society is more sexually open, there is still a stigma attached to the idea of leaving someone because you aren’t sexually satisfied. One that leaves many people suffering.

If there is an inheritable component to sex drive (and I suspect there is), it was my great-grandfather who passed on his proclivities. My grandmother’s philosophy was the complete opposite of her mother’s. She felt that there was no reason to say no to my grandfather, since if she wasn’t in the mood to begin with she knew she’d get there pretty quick (although this may in part have been due to seeing what her mother’s philosophy lead to). My mother, aunt, and female cousins are all highly sexual (my extensive knowledge of my extended family’s sex lives thankfully stops short of my uncles). I personally have both the family tendency toward multiple orgasms and the high sex drive that accompanies that tendency. This probably sounds awesome to at least a few of you, but there were far too many years of my life when it was absolute hell. That’s because my first serious relationship was with a young man whose sex drive was abysmally low. Like my great-grandmother, he felt that once a month was plenty. Since I was unwilling to cheat and he was unwilling to compromise, this meant that most of the time I did without. After a while, in a situation like that, even masturbation begins to feel depressing, because it only emphasizes the fact that your partner has rejected you. I stayed in that relationship far too long in part because the idea that I could let a little thing like sex ruin an otherwise great relationship filled me with too much guilt. In our fights about the subject (which were frequent) my ex wasn’t shy about making this same point. Sex is such a trivial thing, such a selfish thing, to end a relationship over.

Except that it’s not. Sex is a major component of being human, and one’s sexuality is an integral part of one’s personality. To be denied expression of this aspect of oneself is excruciatingly painful and devastating to a person’s self esteem. No one should feel pressured into sexual acts, even to please a partner, but it was no less selfish of my ex to ask me to simply do without than it was for me to ask him to accommodate my needs. This does not mean that people have to be completely sexually compatible to make a relationship work, only that in cases where there’s a mismatch, both individuals must be willing to compromise. Too often it’s the more sexual person who is expected to do all the bending. Gender roles, unfortunately, play into this scenario in ways that harm both sexes. Men should know that women aren’t going to want sex as much as they are and should just learn to live with the disappointment. Women should realize that they don’t really have sexual “needs,” the way men do, only “wants,” and wants are easy to suppress. In reality both men and women find themselves with partners who have lower sex drives and who think that it’s perfectly reasonable to turn them down over and over again (I’m sure these dynamics play out in homosexual relationships as well).

If I sound bitter, well, I am. I have been out of that relationship for years and am currently partnered with someone who’s more than happy to accommodate my insatiable sex drive. But I still remember how lonely I felt in bed at night, afraid to even touch my boyfriend because he might lash out at me for trying to be sexual. I remember how unappealing I felt, how convinced I was that something must be wrong with me because he didn’t want me (to this day I have not dared ask a man I’ve slept with if I’m good in bed because I couldn’t handle it if the answer was “no”). I remember feeling both miserable and selfish because I somehow couldn’t make myself accept the lack of sex. I would never in a million years put myself through that again, and it appalls me that not only was my ex willing to put me through it, but that so many people are willing to do the same to their partners because they assume that sex isn’t really that big of a deal. Given all the variables involved in relationships, it’s inevitable that some couples won’t sync sexually. But it’s vital that both member of such couples acknowledge the power and importance of sex and take steps to arrange something that leaves both satisfied. Otherwise both could easily end up with their hearts broken. My great-grandmother went to her grave loving my great-grandfather, despite a second, more successful marriage. A bit of communication and an open-minded approach to sexuality might have saved both her and her husband a great deal of pain.

Dr. Pisaster has a doctorate in biophysics, not actually anything sexy. She does however enjoy having sex, reading about sex, and talking about sex. Especially when she’s had a little whiskey.









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Comments

I'm surprised how much of a big deal we make out of couples being mentally or politically compatible, but nothing on being sexually compatible. When you consider how big a deal sexuality is in our lives, it's surprising just how little care and concern we give to its education, training and maintaining.

It's like we're still kids and found dad's old Playboy.

Posted by: Fredo at March 8, 2011 5:20 PM

My husband has a greater sex drive than I do, but I am the one who compromises to please him. However, it still doesn't please him. The thing is, I am ALWAYS the one to initiate sex. EVERY SINGLE TIME. OK, almost every single time. He has done it once in 2011. Is that crazy or what? Yet if I don't initiate it often enough he starts getting pouty and I have to sit him down and drag the problem out of him. And it's always pretty much that he thinks we should have more sex. And I tell him I'm happy to oblige and that even if I might not be thinking of it--if he initiates I can get in the mood almost every time. No problem. I don't know why he can't initiate more. It's weird. I don't get why he has to just start pouting (how is that supposed to help) and can't just say "Hey, let's have us some sex tonight!"

I should add that we were both virgins when we got married due to silly religious convictions I no longer hold. I still hold the conviction that we should both be faithful, but if I were to go back in time I'd tell my younger self to loosen the fuck up.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 5:27 PM

I think the issue is two-fold: if you want it more than your partner, you're a nympho and he's "got problems". If your sex drive is not quite up to his, he's a perv and you're frigid.
Everyone has something wrong with them and at the end of the night, everyone is unhappy. Chances are, you just aren't compatible and barring any treatable psychological trauma, you won't ever be in that respect.
I've been in similar relationships and sex IS a big fucking deal when no one is getting what they want.

Posted by: The other Courtney at March 8, 2011 5:31 PM

Great column, Doc. I always find the studies and statistics you dig up interesting, but this piece with the blend of personal anecdotes makes it a standout and one of your best.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 8, 2011 5:41 PM

He has done it once in 2011. Is that crazy or what?

I'm betting he'd feel like he was forcing himself on you. I would.

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 5:45 PM

And another thing...
I resent, RESENT, being the default sex initiator. Girls are taught from an early age that all boys want is to get in our pants. We are told to keep our legs crossed and keep the grabby-grabby under control in school dances. In our twenties, we get to choose if we will allow things to go farther and eventually learn to take the bull by the horns as needed. To suddenly have to wear the balls all the time is annoying. I'm not saying women should just sit on the porch swing and veto or approve sexual advances, I'm just sick and bloody tired of sex being ONE MORE THING I'm solely responsible for.

Now I'm in a bad mood.

Posted by: the other Courtney at March 8, 2011 5:46 PM

Also, have you told him what you've told us?

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 5:47 PM

I’m so sick and tired of this myth that women want sex just as much as men. If that was the case sex workers around the world would be dead broke. In most relationships women tend to use sex as a weapon, and then get mad when the man goes looking for sex outside the home. Forget about reading magazines and listening to what you heard about ways to spice up your marriage. You want to spice up your marriage, try fucking your husband a little more and breaking his balls a little less.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 5:47 PM

My sex drive makes me miserable. The one thing in my life that I guess counts as a romantic relationship was also one of the most sexually frustrating experiences I've ever been through, and I'm still not quite past it. I honestly wish I had no sex drive at all so I could be content with being alone, and I've been seriously considering castration for about ten years.

Hell, if I could afford it, I'd do it.

Posted by: Lucas at March 8, 2011 5:48 PM

Thank you, the other Courtney. Exactly. And in my case I had to go from being a somewhat pure virgin to initiating all the time. I understand he was also coming from being a virgin but he's usually a very masculine assertive guy.
Jay, I guess I get that, but he's my husband for over a decade now--you'd think he'd hear me when I say "It's o.k. Just ask" and ask. If he asks, it's not forcing; it's telling me he's interested and asking if I could be. That's how I see it, anyway.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 5:50 PM

Pookie that's bullshit. Not every woman is a freak du jour, but we're not all convent marms either. Some guys like the strange, some women don't want to take it up the ass, some guys just like whores and some are Charlie Sheen.

Posted by: the other Courtney at March 8, 2011 5:53 PM

Yeah, I've told him this multiple times. That's why he managed to initiate recently--after I reiterated this yet again. But then it was back to being grumpy that I didn't initiate the very next day.

Pookie I've heard about women using sex as a weapon and read about it in books but it's not something I do. I do not withhold sex to get things or in anger or anything like that. I just may not want it every single day but I wouldn't be opposed to doing it more often if asked.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 5:54 PM

I also should point out that we do it at least twice a week, which doesn't seem so horrible for a couple married with kids.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 5:55 PM

I hear you, but that could be interpreted like you're willing to do him a favor, and aside from somebody really selfish, that would have a chilling effect. If things have gone wrong in the past he might be permanently gunshy, you know?

Anyway, you've gotta frankly discuss this with each other. Anyone having sex problems has gotta frankly discuss it. Or it'll just sit there and you'll hate each other and eventually blow up.

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 5:55 PM

" In most relationships women tend to use sex as a weapon, and then get mad when the man goes looking for sex outside the home."

Cite your sources, Mr. Pookie. I call bullshit.

Posted by: Rest In Peace at March 8, 2011 5:56 PM

My sex drive makes me miserable. The one thing in my life that I guess counts as a romantic relationship was also one of the most sexually frustrating experiences I've ever been through, and I'm still not quite past it. I honestly wish I had no sex drive at all so I could be content with being alone, and I've been seriously considering castration for about ten years.

Hell, if I could afford it, I'd do it.

Posted by: Lucas at March 8, 2011 5:48 PM


Look at this poor fucking guy, considering castration, all because he likes to fuck he’s made to feel ashamed. And I goddamn guarantee you, he wasn’t the problem in the relationship. Sex drive my ass, it’s called using sex as a weapon.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 5:56 PM

I'm working on the frank discussions, Jay, I really am.

Pookie, huh, well, I don't know what to tell you. Not all women are evil manipulators. And some men can be really fucking good at manipulating.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 5:59 PM

" In most relationships women tend to use sex as a weapon, and then get mad when the man goes looking for sex outside the home."

Cite your sources, Mr. Pookie. I call bullshit.

Posted by: Rest In Peace at March 8, 2011 5:56 PM


My sources, my sources are every fucking guy I’ve ever known.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 5:59 PM

Wow, in addition to being uninformed, and sometimes just plain stupid, Pookie is also a misogynist. What a great package.

Posted by: John G. at March 8, 2011 6:01 PM

I'm betting he'd feel like he was forcing himself on you. I would.

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 5:45 PM

Seriously? Making a move on your partner in a committed relationship makes you feel like you're forcing yourself on her? Unless we have wildly divergent ideas of what "initiating sex" amounts to... either you have a pretty unhealthy attitude toward sex or you need to expand your repertoire of opening moves.

There are many, many ways to indicate that you might be interested in providing some sexing to your partner. It can be as literal and uninspired as saying "So.... wanna fuck?" (I'm not saying that one's gold, but with the right circumstances and a woman who's not a prude it has been known to cut right to the chase). If you want something a little smoother without any over-thinking, it can be as simple as delivering a passionate kiss in the right context. It can be low pressure. It can be very physical or entirely verbal and delivered from a distance. I've initiated sex with massage, a very suggestive look, humor, and tickle fights (Alas, I lost that one from my repertoire years ago since my wife isn't ticklish and we're happily monogamous). I've probably got 2 dozen tried and true methods for initiating sex with my wife, and none of them have the slightest hint of forcing myself on her.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 8, 2011 6:06 PM

Lucas, one person does not a sexual history make. Whatever this person did to make you miserable (and are you FREAKING KIDDING) consider castration as a viable option is likely an isolated incident. Dude, people will use whatever they can to demean others: race, income, sex drive, religion. I'm sure it was not your issue.

Posted by: the other Courtney at March 8, 2011 6:06 PM

"posting this particular comment anonymous",

It sounds as though your husband may not have matured much since those early days of your virgin marriage, even though you seem to have. What he's doing is not acceptable. He's acting like a baby that wants "mommy" to anticipate his needs and "feed" him. Cut him off from access to you sexually until he grows up and learns how to initiate.

Posted by: John G. at March 8, 2011 6:06 PM

My sources, my sources are every fucking guy I’ve ever known.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 5:59 PM

Get better or more friends. I know that will likely be very, very hard for you, what with how busy you are being a mouth-breathing asshole.

But seriously, you need a bigger sample size if you're going to try to talk with the grown-ups.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 8, 2011 6:09 PM

I'm working on the frank discussions, Jay, I really am.

Pookie, huh, well, I don't know what to tell you. Not all women are evil manipulators. And some men can be really fucking good at manipulating.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 5:59 PM


Not evil manipulators, more like bait and switch artist. If we’re dating and after a while decide to get married, and if you’re letting me stick my fingers in every hole you’ve got. I only think it reasonable to be able to continue to stick my fingers where I want to after we get married. Don’t wake up one morning and arbitrarily decide that the show is over without the both of us discussing it.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 6:09 PM

I don't think Lucas is crazy to want castration. All that means is that he can't have children. He can still have sex. The world has enough children. Not creating anymore is actually the easiest and most effective way to fight global warming and environmental collapse. And as someone who has very low sex drive myself, let me offer you this other possibility, Lucas. Have you considered an open relationship or polyamory? All of my partners have been of a higher drive than me, so I let them meet that need with people who aren't me. Everybody's happy.

Posted by: John G. at March 8, 2011 6:14 PM

My sources, my sources are every fucking guy I’ve ever known.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 5:59 PM

Get better or more friends. I know that will likely be very, very hard for you, what with how busy you are being a mouth-breathing asshole.

But seriously, you need a bigger sample size if you're going to try to talk with the grown-ups.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 8, 2011 6:09 PM


I’m not at all surprised by your comments ZombieScientist. The moment you started calling me names was the moment I knew you weren’t a grown-up, because grown-ups can have conversations without resorting to name calling. I wish not to have a conversation with you because you are a mean person and you aren’t worth my time.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 6:16 PM

posting this particular comment anonymously:
Witholding to prove a point will only make both of you bitter - TRUST ME. I agree with John G that your husband is being a spoiled brat, though (no disrespect towards your husband. Ok, maybe a little). Having "THE SEX TALK" in order to get him to react, then having "THE SEX TALK" again two months later is obnoxious and frustrating. Christ, it's not like you're asking him to mow the lawn or empty the dishwasher.

I have GOT to stop commenting on this thread.

Posted by: the other Courtney at March 8, 2011 6:18 PM

While he may be quite caustic in his comments, Pookie does indeed, in my opinion, have a valid point in that women's sex drives are not as high as men's. Seeing as how testosterone is the main sex drive hormone (I'm simplifying I know, but bear with me), and men produce way more, it stands to reason that a man's sex drive would be higher. Of course you're going to have outliers, but more often than not it will be the man having the higher drive.
Honestly, I see this like any other problem. If it's important enough to you, you'll try to fix it. If your partner has no interest, after communicating, in fixing it, then you move on.

Posted by: Eddie at March 8, 2011 6:19 PM

The worst was the night I initiated and he at first seemed interested and then went fully limp--literally. He didn't even try to touch me--just did a sort of full body protest so I said, "OK, tired or something, what's up?" and he said I was too fat. This was already something I was working on--working out religiously and dieting, but it doesn't fall off overnight after you have a baby. That was extremely hurtful. So yeah, if anyone should fear rejection, it's me, but I keep on initiating.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 6:20 PM

This is a fantastic article, Doc. P. Well written, sensitively and passionately treated. Thank you.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 8, 2011 6:20 PM

This is similar to the universal construct which states that people who roll their toothpaste tube from the bottom up will always marry someone who squeezes it across the middle.

Posted by: dorquemada at March 8, 2011 6:21 PM

@Pookie - Don't expect that a person will have exactly the same appetite for sex their entire life and that the changes in their libido will exactly match yours and so there will never be any mis-match between your levels of desire.

To add to ZombieScientists's point, date better people. If this is how the women that you know act, meet new women.

Part of a respectful relationship is honoring your partner's desire or lack thereof. It doesn't mean it's shut off forever if someone wants to take a night off.

At the start of my relationship - 12 years ago - my male partner had a stronger libido that I did, but if I called it a night - even in the middle of the act - he respected it. It made me love him all the more. Now that he has a lower libido than I do (for many reasons) I respect where he is. We communicate about what we want, when and why. The respect and communication strengthen our relationship and when we do get down to business it's fantastic and very much appreciated.

Posted by: FyreHaar at March 8, 2011 6:28 PM

But I still remember how lonely I felt in bed at night, afraid to even touch my boyfriend because he might lash out at me for trying to be sexual. I remember how unappealing I felt, how convinced I was that something must be wrong with me because he didn’t want me.

This spoke volumes to me. My last relationship (which ended almost a year ago) had so many problems because I wanted to have sex with the boyfriend more than who wanted to with me. I still can't believe I put up with feeling shitty, insecure and upset for so long. Anyway, thank you for writing this.

Posted by: That Girl at March 8, 2011 6:30 PM

Posted by: ZombieScientist

*snort*

I'm supposed to clap now, right?

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 6:34 PM

"At the start of my relationship - 12 years ago - my male partner had a stronger libido that I did, but if I called it a night - even in the middle of the act - he respected it. It made me love him all the more"

What the heck? I hope you're using an outlandish example to illustrate your point, because if not you might be the type of manipulator Pookie seems to be going off about.

Posted by: Eddie at March 8, 2011 6:37 PM

I agree that Pookie has been dating the wrong women and that has probably tempered his opinion about "most" women using sex as a weapon. But maybe it's not them but him?

My boo and I are sex-fiends though (4 times a night about 2-3 nights a week), so it's hard to be objective

Posted by: kidtiger at March 8, 2011 6:37 PM

Guys, it's POOKIE! You're feeding him internet cookies right now.

My boyfriend and I have an incredibly compatible sex drive, but our worst time together was due to lack of sex. When he was unemployed he went through a two/three month period of depression and feeling generally worthless, and it affected his sex drive. By completely zapping it. I was understanding, but it started to affect my self esteem and my desirability. We didn't talk about it at first, but I finally had a minor breakdown and sobbed that I would not be in a sexless relationship. And I won't. And crying it out and discussing it helped-he got back his mojo and all has been right with the world.

But it scared the SHIT out of me. I went 29 years as a virgin and he's my first and only, so I don't have experience with sex and relationships outside of him. Yet I've always had a high sex drive; to this day I have never denied him sex when he's initiated it (and he initiates a LOT). I know it's not the basis for a relationship, but it's IMPORTANT. And I think that for both parties to be happy and not resentful, you need to be compatible. And if you're not you need to make little concessions-whether it be not expecting sex every night or making the effort to be there sexually for your partner.

Posted by: Julie at March 8, 2011 6:37 PM

Sorry for feeding the troll.

I should have learned the Pookie pattern by now:

Misogynistic trolling leads to someone responding harshly leads to Pookie acting like he had the moral high ground.

It's the Circle of Life, only repeated in 2 out 3 comment threads I actually read here. And since I only read about 3 a week, it's amazing how often I see it.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 8, 2011 6:37 PM

I'm supposed to clap now, right?

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 6:34 PM

You're the one who equated initiating sex with rape.

I thought that was sad. I doubt anything I said would actually be helpful, but I was moved to say it by an honest feeling that what you said was sort of soul-crushing.

Posted by: ZombieScientist at March 8, 2011 6:42 PM

My husband has a very low sex drive. I have a very high sex drive our compromise he buys my porn and vibrators.

Posted by: blacksred06 at March 8, 2011 6:45 PM

Not evil manipulators, more like bait and switch artist. If we’re dating and after a while decide to get married, and if you’re letting me stick my fingers in every hole you’ve got. I only think it reasonable to be able to continue to stick my fingers where I want to after we get married. Don’t wake up one morning and arbitrarily decide that the show is over without the both of us discussing it.

Posted by: Pookie at March 8, 2011 6:09 PM

Yeah, I know what you are saying, Pookie. While my wife and I were dating, the whole gourmet menu was available during the courtship phase. We got married and within five years the only thing allowed was sandwiches. Don't get me wrong, sandwiches are fine. But that's all I get? What happened to all that great stuff we used to do?

Posted by: Too Chicken at March 8, 2011 6:51 PM

My wife doesn't use sex as a weapon, but I've been with girls who have. I have been with girls who if I didn't act perfectly they would say it took them out of the mood or some bullshit excuse.

My issue with my wife was that she was an absolute freak when we were dating. She was fully aware that I have a VERY HIGH sex drive. She had a VERY HIGH sex drive. Before we got married we did a pre-nup and the only thing that breaches the pre-nup is my infidelity. No big deal to me since my wife loved sex. But, oh, wait. We got married and I had to beg for it.

Then I was told maybe I would get it more if i wasn't always hounding her. Fine with me. Getting tired of the rejection from my own wife anyway (here that "posting this..."). Well, not asking for it got me no where.

Finally, I decided I'm not spending the next 30 years getting more action from my hand so its divorce or more sex. But I didn't say it that way to her. Instead, I made an impassioned argument that she is so sexy I want to fuck her brains out whenever I see her and its torturing me to be with her every day and not be intimate.

A compromise has been reached.

Posted by: L.O.V.E. at March 8, 2011 6:53 PM

You're the one who equated initiating sex with rape.

Who said "rape"? I was just talking about how someone might feel guiltily selfish if there's been a lot of rebuffing and not a lot of communication. There's clearly a lot of bad feeling going on in this relationship.

Anyway, I wasn't asking for advice.

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 6:53 PM

When I started going out with my current boyfriend sex was great. We got intimate almost every day. After a year or so things started to change. He barely touched me and was always complaining that he was to tired. Every time I tried to get close to him he would just say that he was either tired or to stressed to think about sex (understandable because of what his profession is, but this was not an issue before this time). This lasted around six months. We had many discussions about the matter and he would always say that I had to understand that I had a greater sex drive than he did and had to accept the fact that we weren't going to have sex that frequent. You can imagine what that did to my self esteem. Now things a more "normal" in that department but I still don't feel comfortable being the one to initiate sex. So it pretty much happens only when he is in the mood.


**And yes. I know this is not healthy.

Posted by: DifferentNameForPost at March 8, 2011 6:57 PM

The thing is L.O.V.E. and Jay, I am not rejecting or rebuffing him. I am literally dolling up in sexy nighties and high heels 5 nights a week. SERIOUSLY. And 3 of those 5 nights I'm actively initiating sex. How is that rejecting or rebuffing someone? Then on the 6th night I just figure hey I don't feel like doing the whole dressup thing and I want to chill out, he might start getting pouty that I'm not putting out.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 7:02 PM

DifferentNameforPost: I'll take your "aren't going to have sex that frequently" and raise you a "you're my wife now, it just doesn't seem right". (Ex-husband, y'all).
Mind you, my ex was a F.R.E.A.K. He'd done stuff I'd never even heard of. Then the rings came on, and he stopped getting off. The whole fiasco lasted less than 3 yrs. Some dudes are just messed up. That's one of the reasons I get so pissed off when I hear arguments about wives who don't give it up anymore. It happens both ways, people.

Posted by: still posting under the other Courtney at March 8, 2011 7:03 PM

When Jay said "I'm betting he'd feel like he was forcing himself on you. I would." my mind did not go to a rapey place at all. I interpreted it to mean forcing his expectations upon her, as in:

Partner 1: Let's have sex!
Partner 2: Oh, fine, I guess so. There's nothing on TV. But let's not draw it out or anything.
Partner 1: Well that's not very sexy at all. I must be unattractive/a bad lover or something.

Maybe that's just me, because every once in a while I'm Partner 2. It takes a long time to get me going and my bf goes from zero to sixty in a snap. So we've had to work on it. When it's good, it's good. But sometimes I do hear myself grumbling "oh I guess so" (say, ten minutes after consuming a large meal, which bf inexplicably enjoys doing)and say thanks but no thanks. And then bf says, "well I don't want to twist your arm" and he pouts and I feel bad.

Posted by: malechai at March 8, 2011 7:06 PM

Posting.... your husband is manipulating you. The whole "you're fat" thing sounds like an excuse. He's trying to control you, toots. It's wrong.

Posted by: the other Courtney at March 8, 2011 7:06 PM

This is why being poly has saved my sex life. I can go get it when I want it, where I want it, how I want it-- even if The Fella's not around or not in the mood.

Plus, this guy is the best damn lay I've ever had, which makes coming home to him that much sweeter.

Posted by: That Girl at March 8, 2011 7:08 PM

That Girl

Out of curiosity, is there a distinction between being "poly" or classifying it as having an "open relationship?"

Posted by: kidtiger at March 8, 2011 7:14 PM

That Girl - reading through the article, that bit spoke volumes to me too.

A while ago I was with a guy who started going through his own issues a few months after we started dating. Without ever fully telling me why (despite multiple attempts by both of us to talk things out), he stopped initiating all advances, and soon discouraged me from doing the same. I know that sex isn't the end-all-be-all for relationships, but a healthy, reciprocal relationship in bed is a pretty big component for me. After months of not touching each other, we broke up, but not before my self esteem took a serious beating. It's hard to recover from that kind of rejection.

Posted by: this isn't me at March 8, 2011 7:27 PM

@Eddie - I would never stop it just to mess with him. It was a literal example. That only actually happened once but I recognized it as the time as extraordinary. I thought I was good to go but during sex it became immensely painful (I used to chafe horribly, even with copious lube, I grew out of ti, thank Godtopus). I also learned to more accurately judge my endurance before I let things go that far so I would never have to do it again.

...and yes, he's a saint. Just one of the reasons I proposed to and married him.

Posted by: FyreHaar at March 8, 2011 7:27 PM

I am not rejecting or rebuffing him. I am literally dolling up in sexy nighties and high heels 5 nights a week. SERIOUSLY.

What sounded like two people with simmering resentments not in touch with what was really in each other's heads is getting a little scarier with each post, especially if you're having sex that frequently. This is leaving "you're just not talking to each other enough and the bed's gone cold".

The "fat" thing...obviously it's cruel, but also just...weird.

Posted by: Jay at March 8, 2011 7:34 PM

(I’m sure these dynamics play out in homosexual relationships as well).

You better believe it. My partner has a much higher sex drive than me, and it is an endless source of frustration for both of us.

His coming from a misogynistic culture doesn't help things either.

We've reached compromises for a while, but it always seems to break down, and breaking up is still on the table.

Posted by: Drake at March 8, 2011 7:43 PM

Posting... how long have you been married? (not scrolling back up again...) I strongly urge you to talk with your husband about this. So much is being unsaid and read into by both of you. Any good relationship is based on communication and if you're in this for the long haul you have to be able to talk about anything big or small. This sounds like a MAJOR thing.

Any chance of talking with a counsellor or minister or someone?

Posted by: mswas at March 8, 2011 7:47 PM

Been married 13 years. I do plan to talk to him again. He is weirdly reticent about talking about sex except for mentioning he wants more of it. I don't know if I could get him to a counselor but I could try.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 7:52 PM

we have sex around 4x's a week. sometimes its a quickie, sometimes it's a two way street. we're in sync with how this works for us

Is he going to cheat? Not likely.

Posted by: yeahnotmyrealnameeither at March 8, 2011 7:57 PM

Posting maybe you could go online and look up some ways to broach difficult subjects?

Posted by: mswas at March 8, 2011 7:59 PM

i can't help but begin to think, in Posting's story, i am hearing a contrived, distorted and maybe heavily edited victim/martyr kinda thing going. because yeah, it reads really strange

Posted by: idleprimate at March 8, 2011 7:59 PM

still posting, don't put up with that shit. He is just being lazy now and taking it for granted. let him know you are glad to oblige but he needs to meet you half way.

Posted by: L.O.V.E. at March 8, 2011 8:01 PM

Eddie, Is testosterone the main hormone responsible for sex drive? Because women have a lot less testosterone than men, so they should be hardly ever wanting sex if that were the case. Are you sure you got your facts right there? Or are you just trying to paint some science over your gender bias?

Posted by: John G. at March 8, 2011 8:07 PM

umm, 'scuse me, bmswas, I'm sure PTPCA appreciates your advice re seeking out some counselling, and I agree, it may be helpful..

but if you don't mind her sharing some more with us, her always-reliable Pajibamates, while she's got my full attention on a lonely Tuesday evening over here, awright?

Please, do continue, dear..

Posted by: JimBoi at March 8, 2011 8:10 PM

By all means, I wouldn't want to stand between a JimBoi and his boi.

Posted by: mswas at March 8, 2011 8:15 PM

Pookie's comment seemed to have drawn the same reaction like nails on a blackboard but I've been lurking on the site long enough to know that he's been remarkably restrained today.

No need for the drawn daggers people.
That being said, we know there are effed up people of both sexes who would use their sexuality to emotionally blackmail their significant others, either knowingly or out of ignorance.

Some people are fortunate to have mature, understanding partners. Others aren't so lucky,hence the disparity in some of the comments here. All based on your experiences folks.

Posted by: Just sayin' at March 8, 2011 8:17 PM

a-HEMM, SO sorry about that 3rd -degree from idleprimate, sweetheart, he's just in a mood tonight- and he's helping to kill mine...

please continue, PTPCA, never mind the skeptics, I can sense your need to let go of your worries - I'm here to help, m'kay?

Posted by: JimBoi at March 8, 2011 8:18 PM

Posting... From this outsiders perspective, it looks like your husband is using sex to control your relationship. He's got you feeling guilty, prancing around in nice outfits, bascially he's in the position of power. He may not be doing this deliberately, it sounds like you've both fallen into these roles like they're bad habits.
Unfortunately, I don't know how you could break these habits (which makes this just a useless contribution from me - sorry.)

Posted by: ScienceGeek at March 8, 2011 8:23 PM

An interesting and timely post... I've been on both sides of the aisle for this one. I was always more interested in sex than my husband, although I could certainly bring him around. Now that I've had a total hysterectomy I just have no drive whatsoever. It's really weird. Sex just doesn't even occur to me. I don't mind having sex, but the interest is gone. It makes me sad when I think about it.

Posted by: ArchaeoKelly at March 8, 2011 8:40 PM

On topic - I'm curious about how people cope with the loss of their lover's libido, because that strikes me as a whole new level of awful, especially when the sudden decrease in sex drive is due to illness or something else they can't control.

When you consider how many things can decrease a person's libido - depression, illness, medication, stress, weight gain, problems within the relationship.. you know what? Libidos are fickle fucking wenches. When everything's going well, they're bouncing around like a Whoo girl in a feather boa, but the second things get a bit hard, bitch is pissing off to bali to work on her tan.

...Uh, what I meant to say is, when you consider how many things affect the libido, this must be a pretty common problem.

Posted by: ScienceGeek at March 8, 2011 8:52 PM

My husband and I deal with this exact problem. I've always had a low sex-drive due to some genetic hormonal issues, but after some thyroid issues, it's almost zip. We talk about everything, so we talked (and talked) about it. He's free to, uh, indulge himself solo and we instituted blow job Sundays, to make sure he was getting some attention at least once a week. It works for us, but he's really understanding and his libido isn't that big, either, so that helps too.

Posted by: TWoP_Fan at March 8, 2011 9:06 PM

No one person made me want to get castrated. I haven't had sex in over five years and I'm sick of wanting something I can't have. I really, really want to die, and the only reason I'm still alive is because it would crush my mom if I killed myself. I figure that if I can at least kill my sex drive and get rid of the testosterone-fueled mood swings, I should be able to tolerate my day-to-day existence enough that I can wait out my mom. She's probably got another thirty or forty years left.

Posted by: Lucas at March 8, 2011 9:35 PM

This is such a problem for me and my boyfriend, even if he refuses to admit it. Due to a number of reasons (genetics, hormonal birth control that wrecked my libido so badly that it hasn't recovered at all in the years since I stopped taking it, having been raped by a previous boyfriend), my libido is fairly low. His is quite high. Problem.

Compounding that problem is the fact that he's gained about 70 pounds in the 3 years that we've been together. I don't want to sound shallow, but the physical attraction that I once felt for him has long since disappeared. His weight gain has also lead to sexual problems on his end, which just makes the sex we do have a huge ordeal that usually ends with him pouting and depressed (I'm genuinely supportive and encouraging...but he still takes it hard.)

It's frustrating for both of us. I feel insanely guilty and he feels rejected. But he refuses to talk about it ever. He also refuses to enter into an open relationship, and claims that it isn't enough of a problem to break up over (though it obviously really bothers him). I just have no clue what to do.

Posted by: Joliet at March 8, 2011 9:36 PM

idle primate, ok, I get that it reads strange. It doesn't help that I posted the first comment and kind of thought I was done there but then felt like going on a little more after various responses. It doesn't make for coherent story-telling. And yes, it's very one-sided but there's not much I can do about that as it is just my viewpoint. The thing is, day-to-day I don't go around worrying too much about it. I roll my eyes, go ahead and initiate again and get over it. The post just made me bring it out and then I felt I had to explain a bit more.

Also to clarify to (I think) Jay, I think it came across as having more sex than we do. Somewhere up there I mentioned that we do it about twice a week, sometimes more. It's just that I do the dress-up thing (which JimBoi seems to like to hear about) 5 times a week. Some of those nights I also actively initiate or attempt to initiate sex and sometimes I'm rebuffed, usually in a better way than the night I got the "fat" comment. Some nights I just dress up and go on with life in a normal manner but it's sort of meant to be a sign that I'm available--just doesn't really work for me so I don't know why I keep doing it.

Again, for idle primate, I'll try to tell you his side. He would see it as me not wanting it enough. He would also say I've "let myself go" and he's right in so far as I'm not the same as I was as a young wife. That's to be expected after a couple kids and a number of years. In my view I'm doing the best I can and I've recently cranked it up a notch so maybe that will help in time. Also, he would dispute that he doesn't initiate at all. He has told me before that when he slapped me on the butt in the middle of the afternoon it was a sign. I've gotten better about going ahead and initiating after those rather subtle hints, so it's not all bad.

As for the enjoyment of sex, he is satisfied 9 times out of 10, orgasm-wise. I don't have an orgasm as often but as I've tried to explain, I get more out of it than just an orgasm as I enjoy being physically close and feeling loved. (And no, I don't always tell him if I orgasmed or not--it's not as obvious when I do and I like to vocalize even before I get to that point so it's hard to tell).

So I'm sorry if I came across as a martyr/freak. Day-to-day I'm a pretty normal chick and it sounds weirder when I spill on here than when I go through life just dealing with this over the long term.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 9:56 PM

Lucas I felt really bad when I read your story. I hope you can find some joy in your life and someone to satisfy your needs.

Posted by: posting this particular comment anonymously at March 8, 2011 9:59 PM

So much of sex is in our heads. Look at all the comments about rejection and manipulation and punishment. Really, is it all about the actual sex, or the crap that tags along with it?

I have a friend who completely equates having sex with validating her self-esteem. If he loves me, he'll fuck me. If he doesn't fuck me, he doesn't love me. It's all very black and white for her, and while she's not consciously trying to manipulate her boyfriend, she doesn't handle rejection well...if she doesn't get sex at least every three days, there is hell to pay. Not because a physical need hasn't been met, but because the emotional equation isn't adding up and her insecurities drive her nuts.

Posted by: Wednesday at March 8, 2011 10:06 PM

John G.: Yes, yes it is. As I mentioned, that is greatly simplifying things, but again, saying that all things being equal on the average women have a higher sex drive than men is absurd. There are many studies that reflect this, heck, even anecdotal evidence would suggest the same, e.g. any athlete on steroids has an increased sex drive, diminishing sex drive on men once testosterone levels dip. That's not to say women don't enjoy sex, or may want it a lot. And yes, there are many other factors at play, both societal and biological. But I guess at the end of the day it, on a purely physical level, it can be generalized thus: Many times a woman will be up for sex and will want to have sex a lot, with her partner. Given the opportunity, a man will have sex with any woman he finds attractive (or not, depending on the amount of liquor at hand).

Posted by: Eddie at March 8, 2011 10:16 PM

I've fought with this issue for years, and it's always been pretty frustrating. My wife and I knew my drive was higher, and for a while we tried to manage it with occasional "this is just for you" type activities. After a few years, these went away, and we were down to twice a month, maybe. We wound up in therapy, which wasn't especially useful. Eventually I got fed up in a session, told them both I was tired of talking about feelings, and said the only reason I was there was to help me get laid more, which wasn't happening. I then got a shocker: my wife asked me why twice a week wasn't enough for me. Um, what? No, twice a month. She had no idea how little sex we'd been having, and she promised to be more aware of it. For six months, I was like a kid in a candy store.

After that, back to the usual. She got pregnant again (planned), which of course makes the whole situation more difficult. About seven months in, after feeling frustrated for the umpteenth time, I decided I'd try to not initiate sex at all for a while. I wouldn't think about it. I'd approach every day with the goal of not worrying about having sex with my wife. Bingo, much, much less stress. We had it when she wanted to (once more), and since the baby was born three months ago, one beej. She even made a point of looking all coy and telling me the OB said she'd healed, and then she went out and bought condoms. So I figured I'd give it one more shot. Last Monday, nope, we'll have time tomorrow. Tuesday, nope, she's busy. Weds, out of town together, she's tired, and I'm seething. Thursday, I get up and decide the hell with it, I'm not worrying about it anymore. Since then, I'm way more relaxed. And she's confused. And I don't care.

Sure, I miss the closeness, and for the last six months I've had a roommate rather than a spouse. But, and this is the kicker, the bullshit I had to go through is NOT WORTH the emotional toll. No idea what this will turn into long-term, but for now, I sure don't miss the anger.

Posted by: Bob at March 8, 2011 10:18 PM

so. I had a husband who became such a huge asshole, I don't even know where to begin. Look out for the mid-life crisis too - his made my life a low-self esteem nightmare.

I had two kids, left him utterly off the hook for nighttime help (he drove during the day, wuss when overtired) and provided sexual attention of the most energetic kind 4 nights per week, guaranteed - reasoning that the gaurantee would stop him complaining that I wouldn't initiate and stop him saying I didn't want it. I wanted it! I just wanted some focus back in my direction too!

I had to leave him - he made it all about sex, treated me like shit but insisted I perform to his increasingly complicated set of needs...it got to the point where there was no solving any issues (day-to-day, not just sex related) between us and I stopped having sex with him until he agreed to talk the imbalances out and also allow me some say/control over our sex lives again.

He recommended ecstasy therapy for me (hah!) instead of say, agreeing to go down on occasion and to talk to me at least once per day. I'm well rid of that shit.

I guess I posted this to say that sometimes, giving your partner everything he/she wants without that communication/agreement axis being balanced is a dumb move. Turned him into an entitled prick (literally!)

Posted by: altered namu at March 8, 2011 10:27 PM

oh thank crap i'm not the only one who's dealt with that. when my boyfriend and i first met the sex was ridiculous- frequent and amazing and honestly the best i've ever had. we officially became a couple and it was alright for a time, but after a few months he just stopped. there were months at a time where he wouldn't touch me, let alone have sex with me. i'd lost 100 pounds too, not to mention did everything with him that he wanted to do, and was bending over backwards to make sure he was happy. nothing doing. it wrecked my self-esteem and i fully knew he was using sex to control the relationship because i was the one working, with a car, buying everything we needed, and all that- sex was the only thing he had over me. we broke up after being together for about a year, and lo and behold- he started fucking me again. a lot. in spectacular ways. i mean, really? the idea of being in a relationship was just that awful that it dried up your junk but the second i'm a free agent you're all up in my business like a 24-hour drive-through? gah.


...and yet it's the best sex i've ever had, still, and so i let him do it. not sure who fails more. but sometimes i really, really hate being a plus-size woman with a really, freakishly ridiculously high sex drive. it is problematic when you want it but you're not so sure your partner wants you, or just the idea of easy-access sex. bah.

Posted by: betsy at March 8, 2011 10:28 PM

You know, it's actually really comforting to know that other people have these kinds of problems. I feel really guilty about my lack of sex drive and I often worry that it will eventually cause my husband to leave me, even though he reassures me he'll never find someone as strange as I am to love him.

Posted by: TWoP_Fan at March 8, 2011 10:55 PM

Eddie,

Here's some info I just pulled off WebMD:

"Testosterone has been linked to sex drive in both men and women. But testosterone works much faster in men with low libidos than women, says Glenn Braunstein, MD an endocrinologist and chair of the department of medicine at Cedars Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles and a leading researcher on testosterone treatments in women. And while the treatments are effective, they are not as effective in women as in men. "There is a hormonal factor in [sex drive], but it is much more important in men than women," Braunstein says."

Posted by: John G. at March 8, 2011 10:58 PM

Wow, I guess this is more common than I thought. Whenever I talk about this with my 4 other girl friends I feel as if I'm abnormal.

I've only had sex with two people, my first, it took us a long time to get there and we had our issues but it was actually really good because we could talk openly and try new things.

I am on the second now and it SUCKS. He's so vanilla, so prudish about certain things (doesn't like going down) and now that he works all the time he is too tired to have sex. He also doesn't work out/eats badly and it lasts for so little time now it's ridiculous.

Posted by: stump at March 9, 2011 12:28 AM

I knew this was coming (no pun intended) and it hits too close to home. I'm still crazy in love with Mrs. ,, after almost 29 years of marriage, and I love the feel of her skin and the curve of her ass, but she can go months without sex, especially since the menopause hit. And I jerk off maybe three times a week, and fantasize about having an affair, which I would never do, because I couldn't do that to her (I don't think). Yet I'm frustrated, and I feel helpless.

We've never really been compatible, and I just don't know what to do about it. We've sort of reversed the equation: I like a lot of foreplay, I'm very oral, while she always seemed to get hot fast, come quick and want to go to sleep, like a man. But that seems like a long time ago ...

Now online porn is filling in some for me. But that's not how it should be.

Now I set my expectations really really low. On the rare occasions she asks, "Are you interested?" I say, "That's not up to me, is it?" I never get my hopes too high, and that fucking HURTS, and I don't know what to do about it.

I would fuck her seven ways to Sunday if she wanted me to, but sometimes it actually physically hurts her now, no matter how much lubrication we use, and I want it, but I don't want it if it's going to hurt her, so what the fuck do I do? I never initiate because rejection is so frustrating.

There are several other issues at play here that factor into it, but at the risk of sounding like a letter to Dear Abby, she's perfect except ...

Posted by: , at March 9, 2011 1:10 AM

I think one of the important things to remember is that libido (for the most part) isn't set in stone. Just because you're all over each other in the beginning of the relationship doesn't mean that you'll be that way forever, and just because your libido took a holiday it doesn't mean that it's never coming back. I understand that a lot of people have an overall pattern/set of needs, but it's gonna change over time and you'll be a lot happier if you let your partner and yourself have some room to change.

I think it's pretty common for people to lose their libido a little bit after marriage or after a relationship hits a certain stability threshold. After all those years of taboo debauchery, it can be hard to maintain that enthusiasm for when you suddenly have your grandparents and parents' approval.

Also, this is kind of off topic, but the best piece of advice I ever got from a magazine was that different people sort of peak at different times of day. For some couples, what can be perceived as a difference in libido is actually a difference in timing.

Thanks for the thought-provoking and sensitive piece! It was a great conversation starter for a bit of a check-in with the husband. Probably two things we should all talk about more in our relationships are sex and money.

Posted by: Tits McGee at March 9, 2011 1:13 AM

I hit the jackpot, guys in the audience. My fiance has a much higher sex drive then I do. This works in my favor because whenever I want it, she's always ready to go. However, I've talked at length about how I'm afraid I can't satisfy her. We worked it out that she masturbates if she wants whether I'm in the room or not, and it's actually very arousing so it works for both of us.

Sorry, but I couldn't help but brag about my girl. :-)

Posted by: Kris at March 9, 2011 2:36 AM

My husband definitely has the higher sex drive, but I have chronic depression so I don't know if he just has a high sex drive or if the depression has just muffled mine. When I'm not depressed (in a sunny place, off meds) we're pretty much compatible. He occasionally complains I don't initiate so I try to do that.

A couple of years ago when the depression was really bad, my libido definitely just disappeared. We did talk about it, and the odd result of that is that we developed what we now call "Irish-style" sex (brace yourself, Brigid). Luckily it doesn't take me much to get going, depressed or not, so we just get right down to business. Which oddly, worked. I didn't have to fake being in the mood, having previously gained permission to lie there if that was all I could do, and he didn't have to feel guilty about my non-enjoyment. I was depressed as heck, and sex was usually the last thing on my mind, but he was still getting it as much as he needed so it worked out.

That's one weird compromise, now that I think about it. But, I guess, the point is, in our house, sex isn't always just about sex.

When I'm not depressed, or when I'm stable and maintaining, I have to remember to initiate and I make the effort to throw in one or two BJs a month. I'm not particular about what I get, as long as I get something regularly; but a week without a thing is a problem, and for us it's not just about the sex but about my mood. If we're not having sex, it might be a flag that I'm depressed. Plus sex is a mood booster too, so having regular sex is good for mood.

And although this all sounds clinical, it was both clinical and emotional when we talked about it, and we did talk about it, and my husband did tell me what he had a problem with, straight out. But the actual sex never feels clinical.

Lucas, it sounds bad. And it doesn't sound like it's just about sex. Have you looked for someone to talk to?

Posted by: leuce7 at March 9, 2011 3:23 AM

Hey Kris, wasn't she able to masturbate without your permission too? And isn't, "she gets to masturbate" not really working it out at all, and just sort of you getting what you want with no compromise?

Posted by: John G. at March 9, 2011 3:50 AM

I'm a longtime reader of Pajiba and lurker of the comments and was compelled to put my hat in the ring with the subject matter.

First off, a very robust dialogue stemming from a very evocative and well-written article.

@ Pookie - I don't believe you're a misogynist but it sounds like you've been burned badly and have some trust issues with women now. I have a friend in the same boat and his newly formed attitude gets in the way now of him ever having a meaningful relationship. It's a tough step but trust needs to be given and vulnerability shared even though it might lead to heartache again. Also, a few instances of this occurring to you multiple times may speak to what type of girl you are attracted to/are attracting. Look to it being a relationship pattern rather than a condemnation of all women as deceivers.

@ Lucas - I can sympathize with what you're going through. I hadn't had sex in over 7 years with the wife which led to me supressing my libido for the sake of staying together. In retrospect a mistake but I'm proof that you can come out on the other side and get better. I had some therapy and dealt with the self-esteem issues that arise from neglecting your needs/wants and sacrifices. Talking through your problems with a trained person will be extremely beneficial. It's never as bad as your mind makes you believe.

I think the moral of the stories expressed above is that there isn't one overaching solution. Each situation, each individual requires a unique resolution/arrangement. It's despairing and enlightening at the same time.

Posted by: AnonAnonAnon... at March 9, 2011 7:04 AM

"there is still a stigma attached to the idea of leaving someone because you aren’t sexually satisfied. One that leaves many people suffering."

This seems to be the key, in my eyes. I am in my mid-40's and am astonished by the number of male and female close friends who have confided in me that their spouses have decided they "just don't feel" like having sex any more. One man gets sex four times a year; another man hasn't had sex in years. One woman hasn't gotten anything past cuddling for a year. And no, it's not because health or family issues are in the way. This just boggles my mind.

Of the people who confided this in me, about half of them have strayed, and they are excruciatingly uncomfortable with that. One of my friends said that he felt miserable about breaking his marriage vows. I pointed out that, by cutting off the sex entirely, his wife broke her vows first. After all, "to love" is in there, and marriage implies a romantic, physical love.

Until society accepts that it's just as wrong to stop physically loving your spouse as it is to cheat on your spouse, people with higher sex drives are going to be miserable.

Posted by: Kimberly at March 9, 2011 7:47 AM

I'm glad to see that people are reaching out to Lucas, and AnonAnonAnon's comment:

Talking through your problems with a trained person will be extremely beneficial

is so so true.

Posted by: mswas at March 9, 2011 9:56 AM

we all simply want to be loved.

'bumping uglies' to pacify the aching void of physical closeness and adoration left by childhoods' end is sadly the way most spend their lives, never understanding the difference.

for sex to fulfill its divine reason/mission, there must first be love.

Posted by: kikz at March 9, 2011 10:25 AM

Just totting up some interesting data in the comments (I'm a psychologist... it's what I do)

Of the people commenting so far that a.) identified their gender, and b.) referred specifically to a discrepancy in sex drive in their relationship (i.e. "I have a higher/lower drive" or "my partner has a higher/lower drive," we have the following breakdowns:

11 women mention having a higher sex drive than their current partner.

5 women mention having a lower sex drive than their current partner.

2 women mention that their drives have changed from higher than their partner to lower than their partner for various reasons.

3 men mention having a higher sex drive than their current partner.

3 men mention having a lower sex drive than their current partner.

I know this isn't a random sample by any stretch, I mean, Pajibans are special peeps, we all know that. And it's a distinct possibility that anyone (male OR female) that has a lower sex drive might be less likely to know it's a problem, see it as a point of frustration, or spontaneously mention it when compared to those that aren't getting any but want it. Furthermore, men may not be spontaneously mentioning their higher sex drive in their current relationship as often in the comments because it's assumed/implied in a less obvious way.

But twice the number of women indicated they had a higher sex drive (compared to their partners) than had a lower sex drive, whereas men were split 50/50.

This would seem to be a teeny bit of immediate evidence that would suggest that female sexuality and sexual drive is perhaps a little more complicated than simple testosterone levels alone *gasp! I know, crazy, huh?*, and that the default assumption that females have a lower sex drive *cough*Pookie*cough* might just be an oversimplification/cultural/societal assumption rather than the reality that many women face.

Posted by: linny at March 9, 2011 11:01 AM

RE Pookie: though he certainly could have stated it less assholishly, Pookie voices a common frustration. Women who put out like porn stars (because we're all supposed to do it like porn stars now, right?) during the dating part, then shut it down to a large extent after marriage, or whatever the interval of time is when women calculate that the man is invested enough in the relationship to put up with the greatly diminished sexual performance.

The answer to this seems to me to be: don't put out like a porn star. Don't lead your significant other to feel like he's gonna get whatever he wants whenever he wants, because when you get sick of doing that shit (some of which you might not have wanted to do in the first place, but did because you think the way to get a man is to act like a porn star), the contrast will be striking. Seeing his girlfriend/wife go from freaky deaky to Sunday school teacher in a matter of months is not going to be a pleasant transition for the male (or female, if the situation is reversed).

In advertising (maybe in other industries too) we have a dealio called "managing expectations." It means basically to not promise a client things we can't deliver. I think women make the same mistake (men probably do too, in other areas) in relationships. She doesn't want to turn him off, or drive him away or whatever, so she gives in to whatever he suggests, so he'll stick around. But eventually, she gets tired of always giving in.

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't experiment sexually. But if you do stuff with your SO that you don't really want to do, necessarily, (ie, anal or some odd fetish thing or whatever) just to keep that person around, either contemplate doing that for the duration of your relationship at near the same frequency or call it quits. I think promising (essentially) that your partner is getting a sex fiend early on and then rescinding that unilaterally later because you're tired of doing it is unfair. Just be upfront about the fact that the person you are is what they're getting and if they don't think they can live with that, they should move on.

Posted by: Slash at March 9, 2011 11:12 AM

Linny, that's pretty interesting.

Thinking in terms of some of my extremely close friends, in 2 out of the 5 heterosexual couples the male has a higher sex drive while the woman makes up the other 3. And though my guy and I are very sexually compatible, my sex drive is slightly higher. I'll be able to gauge this better when we move in together though, right now we have sex pretty much every day we're together. And if we don't it's because he's too tired.

Posted by: Julie at March 9, 2011 11:21 AM

RE Lucas: your problem is not sex. Your problem is something else. I'm not a doctor, so not even going to attempt to diagnose, but your problem is not that you're not getting it. You got some other issue going on.

As for anonymous wife, her husband sounds like a dick. I'm not a therapist either, so I have no advice except maybe go to a marriage counselor. If your husband is willing to do so, which sounds kind of unlikely.

Posted by: Slash at March 9, 2011 11:24 AM

Great Grampa got it once a month! Lucky bastard!

Posted by: logan at March 9, 2011 11:27 AM

linny, perhaps those tallied numbers suggest women are 3 times as likely to talk about their relationship/sex issues than men. or perhaps paj has more female readers.

no sarcasm, one of my pass the time hobbies is attempting to apply analysis to non-scientific data.

Posted by: idleprimate at March 9, 2011 1:09 PM

It's nice to know I'm not alone. I stayed in a relationship with a guy with no sex drive for 6 years. 6 miserable years. At first he would reluctantly put out about once a month but when I got tired of trying (I couldn't bring it up directly because he would shut down completely) our sex life disappeared altogether. I went through phases of trying to get him into counselling (I don't think the problem was really low sex drive so much as shame/trauma/depression or something) to trying to change myself. And it was so hard to find other women dealing with the same problem as me.

And get this: he wanted kids and we were "trying". Imagine the frustration in trying to explain to him that one can't get pregnant when one doesn't have sex!!! He honestly seemed to think once every few months would be sufficient. Agh, I'm getting so angry just thinking about it!!!

In any case when I couldn't take it anymore I invested in a ton of sex toys and eventually starting cheating on him. Soon after I gave him 3 options: we stay together and I sleep with other people, we stay together and you seek help for your issues or we break up. He chose to break up.

I'm now in a relationship with a man whose sex drive is equal to my own, which is FANTASTIC! The only reason we don't have sex everyday is because he travels for work. We're now discussing having an open relationship. Having a threesome is high on my To Do list.

Posted by: Hannah at March 9, 2011 1:17 PM

I am also posting anonymously right now. I have a greater sex drive than my husband. He is several years younger, and has had (I'm pretty sure) at least as much experience as me, if not more. He is FANTASTIC.....but just not motivated. We made love on New Year's Day....that's the only time this year. We average once about every 3-4 months. And, then, about 75% of the time I initiate it. He has had some injuries that affect positions, so I almost always end up on top (not my favorite). I am more than happy to service the "hose-monster" but he has not returned the favor in nearly 2 years. He doesn't like to "French" kiss on a daily basis, because it gets me "too wound up."

I am feeling very self-conscious because of all this. I know I'm older, and I feel ancient, fat and unattractive because I want him to touch me SO MUCH but I am too backward to really do/say anything about it. I have tried to talk to him about how I feel, but then I end up feeling like I'm whiny or scolding him. It sounds so corny, but I love him and I just want him to touch me, to hold me.

God, who'd have thought I'd be baring my soul like this on Pajiba?

Posted by: somebody else at March 9, 2011 2:12 PM

Slash wrote, "The answer to this seems to me to be: don't put out like a porn star. Don't lead your significant other to feel like he's gonna get whatever he wants whenever he wants, because when you get sick of doing that shit (some of which you might not have wanted to do in the first place, but did because you think the way to get a man is to act like a porn star), the contrast will be striking."

I don't quite agree. I think the issue is really this: don't do something that makes you unhappy, and be VERY clear and open about what makes you happy and unhappy.

I've had the same problem that many of you have, and in my case it contributed meaningfully to my failed marriage. My ex wife just didn't have the same sex drive I did. Oh, she talked a great game - and by and large acted as she spoke - when we started dating, and definitely led me to believe that her levels of sexual interest matched mine. But very soon after we were married, the frequency with which we had sex dropped off precipitously.

As , wrote, "I never initiate because rejection is so frustrating." I could really relate to that. It's a Catch-22 really. On the one hand, if you initiate sex and are rejected, it's really hurtful. It's (on one level and from one point of view) a way for your lover to show that he/she doesn't love you the way you want to be loved, or doesn't care about your needs even when you openly express them. On the other hand, not asking can mean you don't get any sex anyhow.

There isn't a single simple solution here. But I still maintain that there is a rule of thumb, and that if everyone followed it, things would be a lot more pleasant:

Don't do something that makes you unhappy, and be VERY clear and open about what makes you happy and unhappy.

If you really, truly don't much care for sex, don't mislead your partner into thinking you're a sexual dynamo. It's ok not to have a high libido. It's ok to be who you are. It's NOT ok to pretend to be someone else, in order to form a relationship, and then decide you're done pretending now that you have what you want.

Sadly, sometimes that happens.

Posted by: foolsage at March 9, 2011 2:19 PM

As always, Dr. P, awesome column.

Thus far in my experience, with the noted exception of a couple of one-night stands, I am ALWAYS the person with the higher sex drive in any sort of relationship/FWB situation. I do without when there's no one, but as a rule, the more I'm getting the more I want. This has actually started to become a problem recently.

I've been not-so-seriously seeing a guy for a few months now. I avoid relationships like the plague, but we hang out together, the sex is good to great and getting better all the time, and all in all it's been good. Generally speaking, it's safe to assume that unless I'm on my period, any time we see each other, we'll be having sex. Except last week, he was over one night, and ended up surprising both of us by coming while I gave him head (a rare occurrence.) He tries to avoid that, since he tends to collapse afterwards, but there it was. I was kind of tired, so I generously just let him crash without asking for anything else. Two days later, he came over to watch a game. I'm serious about my sports, so no hanky-panky went on during the game. At the end of it, my roommate gone, I naturally expected some fantastic sexin'. Instead, he said it was late, and he had to go. I griped and grumbled and tried to get him to stay, but he left.

I CRIED MYSELF TO SLEEP after he left. I haven't done that in years. Twice. That's all it took. Two times getting blue-balled and feeling rejected, and I was a quivering mass of sobbiness. UGH.

It turned out all right - he felt bad, we had some of the best sex yet the next time I saw him, and he's coming over tonight for (presumably) more awesome sex. But it really shocked me how hard it was to deal with, especially after getting used to him at least coming close to matching my sex drive.

Posted by: GwenBear at March 9, 2011 2:39 PM

idleprimate, no doubt there are gender differences in who mentioned relationship problems. No doubt more women than men contributed to the relationship conversation. But the key is that of the women that did talk, the majority had higher sex drives, which flies in the face of a lot of assumptions people have about the role women play in a relationship.

Posted by: linny at March 9, 2011 2:51 PM

...you can tell I haven't had my afternoon tea, no doubt no doubt.

Posted by: linny at March 9, 2011 2:53 PM

When my husband and were first together we were going at it like rabbits. Now? Every couple of months at best. A couple of years into the marriage he decided he "wasn't in love with me anymore and wasn't attracted to me." Mind you, absolutely nothing had changed on my end physically or otherwise, he was just bored I guess. That was the initial plummet of my sex drive and it's never really recovered. Neither has my self esteem.

He has since said he loves me again but just recently has dropped the bomb that he really wants children. Although he did add the caveat that not neccessarily with me. For the past seven years we have been a staunchly child-free couple. Neither of us ever wanted kids and it was one of the foundations of our marriage. I feel like the rug has been pulled out from under me. He even suggested that he wants to stay married but maybe we could get a third. He literally wants to move in another woman to bear his children while remaining married to me. I have no words. The most fucked up part is he is seriously confused as to why I don't want to be intimate.

My sex drive took a holiday a few years ago and it really looks like it might never be coming back. It makes me terribly sad but at the same time I think to myself, 'damn, it's not like you want to be screwing this jerk anyhow.'

Posted by: none at March 9, 2011 3:08 PM

i don't think anyone's ever going to convince me that, on average, women have higher sex drives than men.

I do think that either gender might feel more comfortable to complain about problems they experience due to high libido, than low libido.

especially any woman who wants her personal anecdotal evidence to be a mythbuster.

Posted by: idleprimate at March 9, 2011 3:22 PM

I would certainly hope that women wouldn't exaggerate sexual problems just to dispel a "myth." And from my experience they don't. The women I know who complain about their husbands'/boyfriends' low libidos are doing so to vent to their girlfriends, just like the women who posted in this thread. And as one of many many women who have a high sex drive, it gets really tiring seeing the cliche used again and again that women are the ones who don't desire sex. Especially when I've had to console a number of partnered friends who are despairing over their lack of sex life.

Posted by: Julie at March 9, 2011 3:42 PM

RE foolsage:

I've never been married, so you certainly know more about that than me, and it's possible I'm full of crap, but nothing you said really negates what I said.

A sex act doesn't have to make you "unhappy" to not want to do it or do it all the time. I was just saying that maybe to avoid this "my girlfriend/wife used to put out like a fiend and was up for anything, but then after a couple months/after we got married, she shut it off like her hooch was a well that's run dry" situation, women (and some men, apparently) should be honest about what their sexual desires/needs/tolerances are, instead of doing things they obviously don't find particularly pleasurable, if they'll cut those things out with no discussion once they've decided enough time has gone by that the other person will just have to do without. I was suggesting that many women do all kinds of porno-type shit for a new boyfriend because that's what he wants, but she doesn't necessarily want it, she's just doing it to reel him in, so to speak. And that this strategy is unfair, to expect the other person to go from sex on demand to almost no sex at all and just be OK with that.

I was kind of agreeing with Pookie that based on complaints I've read/heard from men, this is very, very common. Porn star when the relationship starts out, then the sexual activity drops off a cliff with no warning to the man (or woman, as the case may be). If it's such a common complaint among men, I gotta think that there's at least a little truth behind it, and not just men bitching that they never get laid.

Obviously, at the beginning of a sexual relationship, there's probably gonna be more sex (on average) than there is, say, several months or years later, but to go from 5 times a week to once a month is going to make someone unhappy. I was suggesting that one way to avoid that would be to manage expectations before he/she gets used to the constant freak sex and ends up embittered and demoralized by the lack thereof.

We don't like it when a business pulls a bait and switch, promises a great deal but then rescinds it by placing conditions on it that no one would agree to if they knew about it beforehand. Likewise, most people would probably not agree to this deal: "Hey, while we're dating I'm gonna fuck your brains out whenever you want and do all sorts of shit that most people have to pay money to get regularly, but as soon as we're married, that shit's gonna stop and I'm gonna parcel out the ass like it's the last canteen of water in the middle of the desert. OK?"

Posted by: Slash at March 9, 2011 3:48 PM

A couple of things; Lucas, I agree with the others who suggetested counseling. It sounds like you could really use someone to talk to.
To those arguing about women actively misleading men about their sex drives early on in relationships, men do it too. My ex actually admitted after we started having sex problems that he saw sex as something to use to get women to like him in the beginning of relationships.
Also, there have been times and places in history when it was assumed women had higher sex drives just as we assume men do now. This sort of thinking is very heavily influenced by society.

Posted by: Dr. Pisaster at March 9, 2011 3:51 PM

I have no advice for "none," other than the obvious: Dump the motherfucker already.

Posted by: Slash at March 9, 2011 3:54 PM

Libido comes and goes in waves, I think. The libido I have now compared to various other points in my life is utterly extreme and far outmatches my late teens/first boyfriend years, which were pretty damn rad. I've had lots of not caring phases too.

It's so complicated that I doubt anyone can definitively say women do not have comparative sex drives. There's social mores, social freedoms, power dynamics, etc informing many relationships in the past, plus the onus of birth control (and before that, few birth control options) is also upon us within the last two generations. There's potentially far more going on than 'want' alone.

Anyhow - just putting that out there.

Also - anybody who makes you feel shitty via sex control needs a good honest talking to, and then a set of specific options and results if they refuse to acknowledge your fair needs. That's fucked up, and you owe it to yourself(ves) to advocate for your own psychological/sensualogical/self esteem.

Posted by: replica at March 9, 2011 5:40 PM

I've stayed out of this discussion thus far because it's been far more educational simply reading.

That said, @ none - RUN. That man has no regard for you, your emotions, and your well-being. Like Slash said, DTMFA, and don't look back.

Posted by: Amanda6 at March 9, 2011 7:45 PM

I'm late to the game as always I see. My most recent ex had the lowest libido of any guy I've ever met. He'd gone years without sex, and it didn't bother him. Sex was a once a month kind of thing for us, and it was because he wasn't interested. Meanwhile I would have gladly put out everyday, I was that attracted to him. What really hurt my feelings though was knowing that he was still masturbating regularly. That made me feel like he had a sexual desire, just not for me. He also had some anxiety issues with regards to sex, and sometimes that nervousness would kill his erection while we were getting it on, sometimes even before we'd started. I'm not sure what his issues with sex were about, but he wouldn't even buy a box of condoms because he was embarrassed. And he wouldn't even go with me to the pharmacy when I'd be getting my birth control refilled because then the pharmacists would know that we were, in his words, "doing it". So yeah. Not exactly the most mature man out there. I eventually broke up with him because he generally wasn't paying any attention to me, and the lack of physical intimacy was a big part of that.

Posted by: A. Nonymous at March 9, 2011 9:53 PM

I have the same kind of woes and stresses in past relationships, yet, instead of feeling sympathetic, it is the language of the women that sticks out to me.

putting out
doing favours
giving in
making up

I am actually familiar, from dancing the delicate balance of a sex life with a woman. when a woman is hungry a modern man should feel nervous about meeting her expectations, is he agressive enough, sensitive enough, is he the best combination of every childhood fantasy and every lustful adolescent fantasy.

and when a modern woman feels sexually hungry, nothing should stand in her way, she has a right to whatever she wants on her terms every moment.

She is the powerful woman that allows or denies sex, depending on her mood. and when her men doesn't fit the mood of a night, then it is time for ridicule.

Contarwise, his desires, are easily summed up in mean rape/domination gambits. or else laughable juvenile horniness.

good luck getting some relationship saving mantras.


Posted by: idleprimate at March 10, 2011 12:31 AM

A lot of the "just tellin it like it is" men in this thread seem to think that women are plotting to trick them into marriage with their sex games. It doesn't seem to have occurred to them that their sexual behaviors and desires may have legitimately changed.

And the assumption that women have lower sex drive than men is just an assumption. The assumptions about the roles of men and women sexually is just too easy to fall victim to cultural stereotypes, even by scientists. Now, I don't have any at-hand evidence any more than you do, but as a very low-libido male, I'm always tired of the cliche that I'll do anything for sex, and that it's all that I think about. I also have several male friends who are not constantly thinking about sex, and go through lots of different levels of libido in their lives. I also know women who vary quite a bit on this.

People need to learn to question things that they're told are hard and fast rules by society.

Posted by: John G. at March 10, 2011 3:25 AM

@john G, look up the meme of the White Knight. I've watched all your responses. As a feminist, the perfectly vital women folk of humanity do not need you to save them.

we have all felt what you do, whe we were boys. it culminates in 1985's Ladyhawke. It's all kind of Oedipal.

now you need to grow up and be a man. your little penis does not win women by being a savior they don't want or need.

Posted by: idleprimate at March 10, 2011 3:32 PM

John G wrote, "A lot of the "just tellin it like it is" men in this thread seem to think that women are plotting to trick them into marriage with their sex games. It doesn't seem to have occurred to them that their sexual behaviors and desires may have legitimately changed."

Well, speaking for myself, I at no point said or suggested that this is sex- or gender-specific behaviour. I'm quite sure that men do this as well as women. I cited an example from my own life of my ex-wife, but if your takeaway was that I meant to say that all women are like this, or that no men are, you're reading things into my writing that I did not put there.

Surely people's desires and preferences change over time. For my own part, I just think that people need to be clear about who they are and what they truly want. If you have a high sex drive, then cool! Go at it like a pornstar. If you don't have a high sex drive, then cool! Be clear about that with your partner and hopefully you'll find someone with a similar drive.

Problems arise when people try to act in ways that they don't truly wish to, in order to make someone else like them more. Often this behaviour will only be sustained for a limited time, after which the other partner will (very reasonably) be confused and upset.

Be true to yourself, and be open about it, and many of these problems become resolvable.

That advice is in no way sex- or gender-specific.

Posted by: foolsage at March 11, 2011 1:00 PM

foolsage - I get where you're coming from. I agree that people should represent themselves as they are. You'll be much happier in the long run that way. However marriage or commitment doesn't seal you in time. Sexual desires and needs will change over time, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

I think that a part of what John G (and correct me if I'm wrong here John) is getting at is that it's possible that a person's sex drive has legitimately changed over time and it had nothing to do with misrepresenting oneself. Sure, in some cases it does. It's sad and it does happen, but for many people (men and women alike) after that first burst of lust passes and you settle into the relationship your libido naturally settles a little. Besides, you get sick of walking around like you've been riding a horse all day.

I get that this is frustrating and painful, and clearly there are a lot of people here who have experienced that firsthand (I have been on both sides of this myself) and I really don't mean to disrespect that. I just wanted to say that for a lot of us, it's about an ebb and flow not a bait and switch.

Posted by: Tits McGee at March 11, 2011 11:48 PM

I was so relieved and encouraged to read this post as well as the comments so many people have made. I was in a 3 year relationship that ultimately ended solely because of sex. I had a high sex drive and my partner didn't. We averaged once a month and it broke my heart. We tried everything including couples therapy. I noticed something was wrong on our 3 month anniversary. We were driving home from a really romantic dinner, going hot and heavy in the car. By the time we came inside I was so turned on I was ready for anything but a minute later she was asleep. I was crushed, nothing like that had ever happened to me before. I was so humiliated I got up and went home and she was mad at ME the next day for leaving - and this was 3 months in. She admitted to me early on that she'd always had a low drive and I realized it was never going to change and that I deserved more than constant rejection. It still hurts because she really was perfect for me in every other way.

Posted by: anonymous at March 12, 2011 8:53 PM

I'm glad I found this article. I'm late coming in but... yeah. I am REALLY glad I found this one. And also, thank you to everyone who commented so honestly.

Posted by: Cletus at March 18, 2011 9:57 AM

The background picture on his laptop. One of the chicks in the pic has a tattoo across her fingers that would read "hopeless romantic" if she put her hands together

Posted by: bukkake at May 1, 2011 5:22 PM