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Now I'm supposed to care what Bam Margera thinks? Sorry, just not feeling it.

Ryan's death is a tragedy, no doubt. His passenger's death an even greater tragedy in my mind as she/he just happened to be with the wrong person at the wrong time. But Ryan and his whole crew were all about being public jackasses and being paid big bucks for it. Drinking and driving is the ultimate jackass thing to do and I think it's a little late for Ryan's friends to say anything different. I think Ebert showed tremendous insensitivity to post that message on the very day Ryan died. But what he said wasn't wrong. Facebook, however, is being a dumb jackass.

To point out a technicality, I don't think Ebert CAN shut his mouth on account of the reconstructive surgery, so maybe Bam (is that a real name?) should check his own insensitive self.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Ebert's right. Sure he is. But that is not the point. It's not about being right or wrong; it's about trying to be respectful. Roger Ebert has the national spotlight; he should know better than to make disrespectful remarks about the dead when he should know that the family and friends are still grieving. You want to make jokes in your living room? Go for it, Roger. You want to condemn him for his shortcomings? Do it. He killed a guy. If he were still alive, he would deserve that and worse. But is now really the time to voice those criticisms publicly? No-one is avoiding his culpability. No-one is passing the buck. We get it; his poor behavior resulted in his death and the death of another. We aren't silencing our criticism for his sake. We're doing it for the sake of the living who are sad at his passing.

As far as I'm concerned he should never have weighed in on the matter. It's not in his purview.

RIP Ryan Dunn, you will be missed. Oh wait, you were driving 110? While you were smashed? And you killed someone besides yourself? Fuck you.

And why do you have a picture of The My Little Roger Ebert Super Fun-Time Doll for the header? My morning of Zen is over.

Frankly, I've never understood the whole "don't speak ill of the dead" thing. Why not? If somebody was a universally acknowledged asshole in life (let's say my former boss) why do we suddenly have to pretend he was a great guy and say nice things about him?
I don't have a problem at all with what Ebert did. In the typical outpouring of "oh he was so young" and "he died as he lived" bullshit Ebert was willing to stand up and speak the truth. Drunk drivers endanger themselves and everyone else on the road and that's a jackass thing to do. Period.

because clearly grieving should be done in 140 character increments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqAypbgaUKM

Twitter is also the communication channel to use instead of 911.

I like the summary that ends this that everyone is wrong, cause it's true. Facebook is wrong for pulling his page (seriously? SERIOUSLY??). Ebert is wrong for taking that moment to make that statement (though the sentiment is true). Dunn was wrong for drunk driving, speeding and killing himself and another person (though putting that out there the day he died on a national stage is tactless).

There are no winners here.

I speak ill of the dead all the time.

And I have little pity for the GRIEVING if they're doing it no Twitter.

ON Twitter. Not "no Twitter."

But... that too.

And while I'm at it... Fuck drunk driving. Fuck public grieving; fuck Jackass. Fuck the culture of celebrity at any price.

ANd fuck Facebook and all these assholes who have decided they are the arbiters of morality and propriety -- and have done it with all the arbitrary nature of a teenaged mother on Oxycontin.

Hey @Minto - You remember that when Facebook pulls the page of someone you like/agree with just because they can.

To quote Voltaire, "To the living we owe respect. To the dead we owe only the truth."

The truth is that Dunn died a stupid and contemptible death, and deserved to be called out for it.

I think part of the problem is that social media like twitter blur the line between public communication and personal communication. They also increase the speed and immediacy of that communication.

If, in the days after Dunns death, someone like Ebert wrote an editorial coming out strongly against drunk driving and implying blame for the tragedy rested with Dunn it wouldn't be this big of a deal.

But twitter is more immediate, more blunt, and also more personal. There is nothing wrong with Ebert making that statement to the public, but it is incredibly insensitive to direct that sentiment to close friends of the deceased who are grieving. Twitter can give that impression.

...and Yossarian makes an excellent point, yet again.

Roger Ebert is of a different generation (than me, than most of Dunn's fans) and he certainly lost the feeling of immortality the young seem so best with. He's watched friends and relatives who didn't want to die, were careful with their lives and the lives of others, die just the same. Of this, I'm sure, because I am only 38 and I've seen it.
I don't think he's wrong. I don't think he's wrong in saying it. Bam Margera has made quite a career out of being an insensitive brat. It's too late to call foul just because it's his toes being trod on now.
Cheers Roger! Fuck 'em.

I'd give more credence to Bam or Perez Hilton if, at any point after the accident, they sat down and explained how Ryan Dunn was in the wrong and was an asshole and 2 people died because of it?

What's that? They never would've done that?

Then fuck off, enablers. News stories don't last anymore. What's the point of waiting two days, three days, four days while some overpaid man-child 'grieves' on Twitter before condemning the act when absolutely NO ONE will be paying attention anymore.

Fuck anyone who has a problem with this. Ebert didn't walk up to the Dunn's parents and say 'Your kid is roasting in hell'. He, rightfully, explained that a guy who made his living on Jackass was, in fact, a jackass because he drove drunk. And any other J/jackass who let him drive drunk is also a jackass.

Fuck. This. Shit.

Is it, in fact, insulting to call someone a jackass when that person has apppeared in three movies and countless stage and television appearances using that very moniker? I mean, let's say hypothetically that "nazi" is the biggest insult on the internet - is it still insulting to call Hitler a Nazi? He was one; he proudly wore that mantle. Can we not say the same thing of Ryan Dunn? He took joy in being a jackass, and then he went a died doing a spectacularly jackassed thing.

Nonsense. Your opinions are quite frequently wrong, Case.

It would be a wonderful fantastical utopia if we all as one were able to not speak ill of the dead literally moments after someone's death but unfortunately the attitude "too soon?" is a concept we embrace. So anyone who indignantly says "Have some respect!" - it's never going to happen.

You can't tell me that stand up comedians tonight haven't adapted their acts to immediately put in a joke about Dunn, and also that calling him a jackass wasn't the most obvious pun ever and probably already written by a million Twitterers before Ebert even got there.

Someone wrote before it'd be an entirely more sympathetic story if it had been him driving clean and sober and killed by someone else who was not, and I agree with this. I feel sympathy for the family, but none for him and will continue to enjoy jokes at his expense. Idiot.

If Ryan Dunn had speeded while drunk and LIVED, but still killed his passenger, we'd be calling him a jackass and worse.

Frankly, I've never understood the whole "don't speak ill of the dead" thing. Why not? If somebody was a universally acknowledged asshole in life (let's say my former boss) why do we suddenly have to pretend he was a great guy and say nice things about him?

Because no-one is universally acknowledged as being an asshole. There is always somebody who loved the deceased and is weeping for that person. Or for themselves, for their own loss. No one is telling you to say nice things about the dead, to pretend that they were a saint. But you don't have to criticize them either. This guy probably has a mother who is still alive and who is having to deal with the loss. Maybe he's got a sister. Nieces and nephews. Hell, maybe he's got kids of his own.

I've said this here before and I'll say it again. None of you are perfect. Maybe you haven't driven drunk, but I'm betting one of your close friends has. Would you want some stranger -- some movie critic -- to get on the internet and insult them in front of the world? To make jokes about them? Would you still be shouting, "He deserved it, rot in hell" if it were one of your friends or family members? I doubt it.

@supersente When my friends drive drunk they get one hell of an earful from me and any future invites out drinking or to my home come with the caveat that if they can't avoid driving drunk they aren't invited.

As much as I might love someone, if they die in that way and take someone else with them I'll be the first to stand up and express how incredibly shitty, stupid, pointless, unnecessary and completely avoidable those deaths were.

I'm glad someone pointed out the hypocrisy of someone taking offense at being called a title they proudly (and profitably) wore in life. I guess its just a coincidence that drunk driving is ALSO considered kind of a "jackass" thing to do....

On a similar note, I had my facebook page hacked or something, because after a few months of inactivity, the account was locked. Several emails back and forth and Facebook refused to unlock it due to "spam and abuse" and "this decision is irrevocable".

So I just made a new account with a different email (basically just to enter contests anyway) and now all I receive is unrequested game invites and "find out who thinks you're gay" from my freinds. What is the definition of "spam" again?

Supersente:

There's a difference between going up to a widow in the funeral line and saying "your husband was a dick" to her face and commenting in general that the person was a dick.
It's pure hypocrisy to stay quiet about a person's failings just because he/she is dead. Especially so when that person just committed a criminal act and killed another person in the process.

I agree, everyone is stupid. It's a tragedy, Dunn was young and seemed like a nice enough guy. But he DID drive drunk and caused the death of himself and another man.

But it's not okay to call him a jackass and Ebert should be ashamed. Facebook have probably overreacted but I'd imagine it was more in reaction to a barrage of complaints than the actual content.

Ebert for the win.

What frustrates me about this is basically, a very, very dear friend of my sister and I was the passenger, and died, in a drunk driving accident. The driver survived.

A few days later, a guy from university, not knowing what had happened, basically said everyone who drink drives deserves to die any way, like it wasn't sad when someone does.

And I'm of the opinion, FUCK THAT GUY, and FUCK EBERT. We all FUCKING KNOW Dunn died drunk driving. We all know. He hit a tree and exploded at 110 miles per hour, he posted pictures of himself drinking JUST BEFORE the crash, we all fucking know.
It's known.
HOW EVER, two men are dead. No one forced his passenger into the car with him so no one death is MORE tragic than the other, guys who are saying that it is, both deaths are fucking awful because they happened for the worst reason and TWO YOUNG MEN ARE DEAD so no you don't get to get upon your high horse about how drunk drivers are all dumbshits who deserve death, they deserve their ass being kicked and thrown into fucking jail, having their keys and car removed, they deserve the indignity and frustration of a driving ban, they bring THAT on themselves. But the guy died YESTERDAY, Ebert. Just FUCK OFF.

Dunn's family and friends and the family and friends of the people in his car will all have to go on with the knowledge of how Dunn died, and why, so we don't need anyone to remind us how frustratingly stupid and pointless a death it was. Just...have some decorum, Ebert.

Maybe I'm not expressing my idea clearly enough.

This has nothing to do with Ryan Dunn. He's dead. And however he lived or died, we are incapable of offending him or teaching him a lesson. We can't chastise him for his actions. We can't insult him. He's gone. We don't have a target for our understandable rage.

This has everything to do with Ryan Dunn's family. Parents that lost a child. Maybe a spouse who lost a husband. Aunts. Uncles. Neighbors. Friends. If you have empathy, it's them you should have empathy for. They become the targets of the disgust you feel. They become the targets of your hate and intolerance, however justified those feelings might seem.

It's wrong to burden them with those things so soon after losing a loved one. Were Roger Ebert's comments accurate? Sure. Was he wrong to publicly mock the dead? Absolutely.

You either see this or you don't.

Who said drunk drivers deserve death? Someone said a drunk driver is a jackass for driving drunk. Big difference. If Dunn didn't die, he'd be facing some serious jail time for vehicular manslaughter. He committed some really stupid crimes (drunk driving, speeding) and managed to kill someone who wasn't drunk driving or speeding. He was a jackass. I'm sorry he's dead and his family, friends, and fans are grieving. But he does not get my sympathy. This is the kind of story that needs to be told in blunt details to discourage other drunk driving jackasses from driving drunk again. And yes, I feel this way about every fucking drunk driver. You're driving a potentially deadly weapon when you don't have all your senses about you. That's a jackass move right there.

Removing Ebert's page from Facebook condones the actions of a drunk driving and speeding jackass who killed someone because of his stupidity. You can say it's out of respect for the dead. Some people don't deserve respect for their deaths. People who kill other people out of stupidity don't deserve respect. Doesn't matter if it's a celebrity, politician, businessman, college student, retired person, or unemployed person: drunk drivers do not deserve respect, especially if they take someone's life. It's not an "oops, my bad" situation. You got drunk. You illegally got behind the wheel. You lost control and you killed someone. You didn't mean to do it, but you did it because of your own stupid choices. You're responsible and not a fucking victim. Applies equally for the living and the dead.

Some dude from some dumb show drove drunk & got him & a friend killed. Who cares? There's like 6.5MM other people in the world.

Posted by: the new transported man at June 21, 2011 11:32

Here in America we say six billion, now if you were in the UK it would be million million and that would be understandable. But since this website was the brain-child of a yankee, it would serve you best to follow our lead.

why are "class" and "being respectful" being used to reference someone none of you would have EVER heard of except for his being part of an "entertainment" (i use that term loosely) outfit defined by a lack of class and lack of respect? that was the whole point of using the label "Jackass" correct?

untalented people became famous by doing dumb stunts and reveling in making "jackasses" of themselves. now one of those untalented people has died as a result of dumb actions. it's sad that someone was dumb enough to be a passenger in car with a drunk driver. it's hardly worthy of "class" or "respect" when talking about the dumb person who gained 15 minutes of fame by acting the fool and died by being even more foolish. the Darwin Awards has another nominee.

I think Superasente, as always, has said it best.

@Pookie: Million Million all day every day. Actually I meant "bn" but I've been doing finance this morning & had MMs on the brain. Whoopsie-daisies.

DC, I don't think any one has said not to think of him badly. I'm if anything more disappointed because of all the Jackass crew, he had the reputation, IMO, of being the sensible one, the one who'd know better. But he didn't and now he's dead and it's such a let down and so frustrating because it IS stupid.

I think the issue everyone has here is that Ebert could maybe have given it some time? The message about drunk driving is out there by its self what with it being a fact of the case. Ebert didn't need to be disrespectful.

*power rings a rimshot for Dustin's comment about Geep's FaceSpace page*

Hey now!

I'm wondering, is Knoxville and his idiot crew even bothering to show some sympathy for the family of the guy he basically murdered? This isn't about Dunn OR his family.

It should be about the passenger.

Wow. What I'm thinking is that neither Ebert, nor Dunn, nor Margera nor any of the rest of them, except maybe the passenger and the families are worthy of the fight going on in this thread.

The fact of the matter is that Ebert, tactless and insensitive or not, can say any damn thing he chooses about it. Facebook is just as within its rights to censor those statements if it sees fit. Both of the entities in question are, for the purposes of this discussion, completely free to react to this situation in any way that they like.

The fact that everyone is completely freaking out about this (on one side or the other) is an argument over whether it was appropriate. In my personal view, Ebert's comments were pretty tactless. But IT DOES NOT MATTER. Because appropriate is subjective. To Ebert, his comments were appropriate. To Facebook they weren't. The brutally ridiculous part is that we're arguing about it at all, as if free speech should take a backseat to political correctness.

I've noticed that, though. Free speech is great until someone says something you don't agree with. Not how it works, people.

Lack of mutual exclusivity does not preclude either from existing independently of the other, Superasente.

So a guy that specialized in having his sack stapled to his thigh or being pushed down a mountain in a shopping cart or have m80 firecrackers detonated in his ass, or have a water balloon launched 100 mph at his nuts has killed himself and his passenger after crashing into a tree after driving drunk and somehow everyone is made at Roger fucking Ebert for calling the guy a true jackass?

It seems to me that this is a question of Ebert's timing and wording. Too soon? Maybe. Too soon to do it with a pithy pun? Perhaps. Wait a day or two and not resort to wordplay, just state what it is you are thinking - which seems to be the common sentiment that drunk driving is stupid criminal etc.- and there is no controversy.

"Because no-one is universally acknowledged as being an asshole. There is always somebody who loved the deceased and is weeping for that person. Or for themselves, for their own loss."

Hey Superascente, some people are. See Hitler, Adolf. He's pretty much universally acknowledged as an asshole.

Oh and free speech is a FUNDAMENTAL right as an American citizen. Smokin is completely correct that whether or not you agree with someone, it's their right to say what they want. It's free speech. Hell, Westboro recently won a decision with the Supreme Court to be horrifically offensive at a FUNERAL. Ebert is within his right to say what he wants and Facebook is within their right to shut his page down if they feel he is using their medium in a manner that they do not approve of. As for Bam, your friend effed up, killed theirself and another person. While you are grieving, take a hard look at your own choices and use your friend's death as a teaching moment. Drinking, speeeding, doing dumb things WHILE driving is dangerous and people die EVERY day.

I agree with superasente. Ebert's comments hurt Dunn's family and friends, most of whom have been dragged unwittingly into the spotlight by his antics. While I tend to think it's fun and funny to make mean but witty cracks about, well, about everyone, timing, as they say, is everything.

Surely, we have all known and loved someone who died in a jackass way or did something jackassed that resulted in someone else's death or was just a plain old jackass that died. Regardless of whether the jackass "had it coming," the simple truth is that the ordinary folk who loved and lost him feel like the worst kinda crap. It just strikes me as inhuman to say anything publicly(truthful or not)that would compound their grief.

If our goal, as some of you have hinted at, is to have fewer jackasses in the world, then maybe it starts by refraining from, albeit honest, jackassed discourse.

That being said, Facebook is a total jackass for removing Ebert's page. Since when did they become the arbiters of taste?

Forum, that is.

"When Sarah Palin put up the targets that some suggested led to the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords, did Facebook pull her page?

The reason that didn't merit a profile pull is because FB understood that Palin was merely borrowing from the democratic playbook. You know, getting angry and getting in their faces, what have you.

I've done facebook before, I even tweeted a few times, I do internet opinion surfing pretty regular. I do not, however, do them while I am grieving. So maybe Bam Margarita should get on with his all day cry athon and quit reading twitter and facebook until he can handle the truth about his friend. If you are so broken up about his death that you can't bear hearing someone say he was a jackass for what he did than stay the hell off the internet, dumbass.

Folks, and let's not fail to notice how Margera and Knoxville et al have twisted the stuation to make it. All about them, and how it affects their supposed grieving. I seem to recall that just last week Margera was twattering about getting drunk off his ass before boarding a flight. About time they all grew the fuck up already.

Melody, before you insult my reading comprehension, please take a moment to reveiw the context in which all of these comments are made. My initial statement does not exist in a vacuum. Neither Ryan Dunn, nor anyone else (yes, even Hitler) is "universally disliked." He has family and friends. You challanged my comment by saying something like, "B-but, Hitler is universally disliked."

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for me to have assumed that you made this comment within the context of the entire conversation, as a means to refute my original point. Which was, again, that Ryan Dunn wasn't exactly reviled.

If you'd like however, I'd be happy to address that comment exclusively, outside the context of this entire thread, that way you'll know that my reading comprehension is in tact:

Yeah. People hate Hitler, dude. Good point.

Oh, and free speech does matter here. The internet is not "within earshot of the family." It's a huge leap to assume that someone's family really cares what random strangers on the internet think about what they've said.

First, I'm concerned that you don't understand the fundamental principle of the 1st Amendment. The amendment prohibits the creation of any law by the government that infringes upon the freedom of speech. Telling someone to "shut up because you're a dick" is not a government action. It's not a violation of the freedom of speech. In order for his 1st amendment right to be violated, some government body would have to legally censure him from speaking out against Ryan Dunn. That hasn't happened. It won't happen. It's a moot point.

Second, Melody (you dolt), even though Dunn's friends and family aren't literally within ear-shot, they've still been exposed to Ebert's thoughtless comments. They've still been hurt by them. And in fact, it is not a "huge leap" at all to imagine that they would become upset since that is exactly what has already happened. I imagine Bam Margera is frothing at the mouth over this, just waiting until he can get Ebert alone so he can break the rest of his jaw off with a skateboard. Absolutely they care.

Now, by all means. Take your time. Re-read what I've written. Go read Wikipedia's page on your 1st Amendment rights. Go take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror and evaluate whether you want to be on the side of Fred Phelps, or on the side of common human decency. Once you've done that, please come back and try to argue with me again. I enjoy verbally knocking you down.

What the FUCK are people who are supposedly DEEPLY IN MOURNING doing, trolling around o Facebook looking for things to get outraged about?

What utter bullshit.

So, when IS the appropriate time to call him a jackass? How long are you, personally, going to take to let his family grieve before you take off your mourning blacks and decide that someone who drinks and drives is an asshole?

Well said Mrcreosote.

Superascente, you quite frankly don't get it. Insult me all you want if it makes you feel like that big of a man. You said no one is universally acknowledged as an asshole and I offered up a suggestion for someone who, in general is. You completely disregarded that context, twisted my words around to say that I offered up Hitler as "a template" for how to treat the recently deceased. If you were to clearly read my comments without your apparent distaste for me personally coloring your reading of those statements, I would think you had fiured that out. Clearly you didn't and that's your problem. You need to reread the statements you yourself have made and make sure you've clearly made the point you wish to make before you condemn others and change your words to reflect a completely different line of thought than you initially wrote.

If Bam Margera were THAT upset about his friend, who as someone else has said, murdered another person via a single, dangerous CHOICE he made, he shouldn't have been on Twitter. Most people I know who are genuinely grieving for someone do it on or in places other than Twitter, a highly impersonal forum for such a personal feeling. I'm willing to bet that there were far, FAR more insensitive things said about Dunn on Twitter. In my opinion, he's a careless idiot who made a bad decision and not only died for that decision, but killed someone else as a result of carelessness and stupidity. That's how I see Ryan Dunn.

In regards to the free speech statements, many people, not just here, have complained that Ebert shouldn't have been allowed to say that. People say things EVERY day that offend, hurt, and insult someone. Why this single man's statement is such a big damned deal is beyond me.

As for Perez Hilton, he's the pond scum of humanity: a soulless opportunist who only wants his next unwarranted 15 minutes of fame.

Greedy, why do his friends and family have to bear the brunt of his actions? And the "after effects of his crime"? They had nothing to do with his choice to drink and drive, yet THEY get the brunt of poorly timed and tactless internet comments? To what end?

Not only that, but if Ebert's point was to raise awareness re: being a jackass for drinking and driving to the young kids who admired and may want to emulate Ryan Dunn...wellllll, how many young kids even know who Ebert is???

Look, Ryan Dunn drank, drove, killed himself and his friend. Nobody is denying this. But saying that his friends and family should be put through more pain is asinine.

My own personal example is a friend who was killed by a drunk driver while he was on his way home from work 2 weeks after graduation. Did I rage at the drunk driver? Yes. She walked away alive. Did I want to verbally punish the driver's friends and family? No. WHAT THE FUCK FOR? THEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

I feel awful for his family and friends. The end.

Giffords shooting was neither directly nor indirectly caused by that right-wing propaganda. This sort of knee jerk hate-ladden stupidity makes liberals sound no different than crazy Glenn Beck right-wing conspirators. I expect better of you

A couple thoughts on this.

1) Drunk driving is one of the dickiest of dick moves.

2) Ebert is certainly right, but I think the question at hand here is more about tact than strictly being right or wrong. If he felt this was an appropriate time to make a statement about drunk driving, that makes sense and is probably even appropriate, but if you're going to say something serious, then be serious about it. Sarcasm and puns are not appropriate. This isn't a fucking movie review Roger.

3) Magera's response is completely reasonable. It can't be easy to deal with the loss of a friend and it's compounded by having to grapple with why he would do something so profoundly stupid.

4) I don't feel particularly bad for his passenger either. No one forced him to get into a car with his inebriated friend as far as I know. He should have vehemently refused to go and demanded that Dunn not drive. It doesn't guarantee that this wouldn't have happened, but it may have at least given Dunn pause before getting behind the wheel. If you want to talk about about enablers, let's start right there.

I expect the next Jackass movie (because there probably will be one) will have at least one segment devoted to preventing shit like this from happening in the future. At the very least, I think we'll see Johnny Knoxville and Margera showing up in "Don't Drink and Drive" ads.

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