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Fallen Heroes


"Lost: Sundown" (S6/E6) Recap / Daniel Carlson

Lost Recaps | March 3, 2010 | Comments (112)


It’s weird to think that last night’s “Lost” — “Sundown” — is the sixth hour of the season, and there are only I think 18 total. That means that we’re one-third through with the final season, and as a result, we get episodes full of twists and momentum like this week’s. Most of the alternate timeline stuff was fun, but the real meat was (as expected) the action unfolding on the island at the Temple. Let’s do this.

The Los Angeles Timeline
As with the other glimpses into the non-crash world, this one picks up right after Sayid leaves LAX. He takes a cab to a house and is greeted at the door by Nadia, though it’s clear their relationship isn’t what it is in the other world. She’s got two kids and is married to Sayid’s brother, Omer, which we learn through blocks of painful exposition that make their home on network melodramas. I mean, who actually thinks it’s okay to have siblings talk like this? I don’t (e.g.) say to my sister, “Good to see you, sister, even after all these years.” It’s just clunky. Ditto Omer’s counter to Nadia later, who complains about his using the cell phone at the dinner table: “Dinner’s over. This is business.” No one says this. I know that “Lost” is a pop genre show that’s going to, pretty much out of necessity, emphasize style over substance, which is fine most of the time; workhorse dialogue and a compelling story have brought us some great entertainment. But intimate family scenes demand a greater adherence to the real world than this.

Anyway, later that night Omer tells Sayid that to launch the latest branch of his dry cleaning business, he borrowed money from a criminal and paid it back only to have the guy claim to be owed interest for life. Sayid, wisely avoiding the lecture about honor among thieves, instead listens to his brother’s plea for intervention. Omer, in case someone watching the episode has not seen any previous portion of “Lost” since 2004, reminds Sayid that Sayid was an interrogator for Iraq’s Republican Guard, which is another awful moment of exposition. We all know that’s what Sayid did, and more importantly, Sayid knows it and doesn’t need to be reminded of it. That’s why Omer’s talking to him in the first place. Just: ugh. A dropped ball. Sayid declines the request.

The next day (or so), Sayid is sending Omer’s kids off to school (and of course the daughter says how much Nadia likes having Sayid around, because why not these kids are psychic and we need to be reminded of Sayid’s and Nadia’s hidden love) when Nadia runs up and tells him they need to go to the hospital. There they learn that Omer’s been badly mugged, and Sayid almost goes on the warpath right there until Nadia talks him out of it. That night, at home, they have a DTR about why he pushed her away, and he says that he’s been trying to atone for his sins and doesn’t deserve her.

The morning after that, Sayid’s met outside by some Middle Eastern thugs in suits, who coerce him into their car and take him to their boss’ hideout, which is the kitchen of a restaurant. The nationality of the henchmen was a viewer fakeout, though, because the boss turns out to be none other than Keamy, the same roided-out mercenary who made life hell for the castaways a couple seasons back. This is an awesome choice not only for the way it keeps the characters’ universes all tangled up, but because Kevin Durand is an eerie actor with the ability to completely isolate his eyes from any emotional state he might be trying to create with his words. He does the typical posturing and threatening of a mob chief, even refusing to answer Sayid directly about being responsible for Omer’s injuries, but Sayid is not about to play around. Like a boss, he knocks back the guard next to him and gets his gun while using him as a human shield and killing the only other guard in the room. In seconds, it’s just Sayid and Keamy alone next to a plate of eggs, with Sayid’s gun pointed straight at the man’s head. Keamy tries to talk his way out of it, saying Omer’s debt is forgiven, but to no avail: Sayid coldly shoots him and watches him drop to the ground and die.

And then, Sayid hears a tussle in the freezer and moves to investigate, finding someone inside, tied to a chair. He cautiously pulls the tape off the figure’s mouth as the captive is revealed to be: Jin! Sayid asks what he’s doing there, but all the beaten man can do is say “No English.”

The Island Timeline
Jack and Hurley are presumably still out at the Lighthouse or on their way when Sayid confronts Dogen about the whole trying-to-kill-him-with-a-poison-pill thing. Dogen responds that the machine they used on Sayid revealed that his balance of good and evil, which everyone has, had “tipped the wrong way.” Then they get into a big fight, the kind of physical knockdown I haven’t seen since “Alias,” and Dogen’s about to finish Sayid off when a baseball rolls off the table and thuds to the floor, stopping the match. Dogen shakes it off and tells Sayid to leave and never return, which he happily agrees to do.

Out in the jungle, Claire and the Enemy are having a brief talk as she gets her marching orders, and she agrees to do his bidding if she gets Aaron back. Asked if he’s really going to kill everyone inside, he replies, “Only the ones who don’t listen.” She marches off as the action shifts back inside the Temple grounds, where Sayid tells Miles he’s been branded as evil and has to go. Miles counters that Sayid was dead for two whole hours, and claims that “whatever brought you back, it wasn’t them.” This is when Claire shows up, strolling in the front door like she’s not a loony, and tells the Dogen he’s wanted for a meeting with the Enemy. Dogen, knowing this is a stupid idea, pulls a 180 and asks Sayid to stay, and more than that, to take a special knife the Dogen gives him and kill the strange man in the jungle who’s “evil incarnate.” Dogen warns Sayid to do it before the creature, who will appear as someone Sayid knows and has died, can talk. For the second time in 10 minutes, Sayid agrees to the Dogen’s orders.

Out in the jungle, Sayid passes Kate on his way out to do his duty, and she heads to the Temple to learn that Claire’s there, somewhere. Meanwhile, Sayid stops for water when he hears the rattling sound marking the approach of the smoke monster, and he draws the knife as the Enemy steps from the bushes and calmly greets him. This counts as talking, but Sayid probably writes it off as small talk and not that relevant, so he lunges forward and runs the blade into the Enemy’s chest. Puzzled and slightly miffed, the man pulls the knife out and asks, “What did you go and do that for?”

Undaunted, Sayid tells him about the mission and Dogen and the whole mess. I like this aspect of the show that lets Sayid (or anyone) have a real dialogue with this supernatural force that’s trying to recruit them. The monster posing as Locke has been more forthcoming, but it’s interesting to watch him make his case and recruit people. Real bad guys never think they’re bad, they just have different priorities and a modified way of defining need. That’s something the show understands, and in its better moments, it can brush up against some great ideas. (This is also thanks in no small part to Terry O’Quinn, who’s fantastic.) The Enemy asks Sayid to deliver a message, though he’s not keen on running errands, and when offered whatever he could imagine in the whole world, Sayid responds that the only thing he wants is dead and gone and that he can never see it again. With a grin of terrifying promise, the Enemy asks, “What if you could?”

Sayid returns to the Temple, his luscious man locks soaked by the rain, and announces to the assembled group that there’s a man in the jungle who wants to leave, and who will take anyone who wants to go. Those who remain at the Temple past sundown will be killed. Inside the Temple, Lennon bumps into Kate, who grabs him and demands to see Claire. Lennon obliges and leads her to a room with a pit in it, and in the pit is Claire, singing “Catch a Falling Star” and rocking back and forth as only someone who’s bid farewell to sanity can do. (This is the song Claire asked the unborn Aaron’s prospective parents to sing to him, and we also see Kate sing it to Aaron when she visits Cassidy off-island.) Kate calls down to Claire, who recognizes her and starts to talk about Aaron, but Kate corrects her and says that she, Kate, is the one who took Aaron and raised him when Claire went missing. This news does not go over well. Rather than react or yell about her bye-bye baby, though, Claire just laughs as Lennon’s men pull Kate away after her two-minute visit is up. “He’s coming,” she says. “He’s coming, and they can’t stop him.”

Outside, a bunch of people are getting ready to bail, and Sayid is unapologetic when Lennon complains about the panic he started. Sayid then heads inside and finds Dogen by the pool, who reveals that he was a big-shot banker in Osaka, Japan, when things went bad. He had developed a habit of drinking after work, and was plastered when one day he picked up his son from the boy’s baseball game. (Hence the presence of the ball in Dogen’s room.) He wrecked the car and survived without a scratch, but the boy was almost dead. At the hospital, he was approached by Jacob, who said that he’d be able to save the boy’s life as long as Dogen agreed to go to the island and never see his son again. Sayid says that Jacob drives a hard bargain, to which Dogen replies that the man outside must’ve offered a similar one to Sayid. This is another key point: Jacob and the Enemy seem to work in similar ways, and to even give the appearance of the other. There’s a nice aspect of free will and moral searching there. Sayid tells Dogen he wants to stay, but it’s a feint to get his defenses down: Sayid grabs the man and plunges him into the pool, and after a brief struggle, Dogen drowns and floats away, the baseball in his hand bobbing to the surface.

That’s just the beginning of the carnage, too: Lennon bursts in and shouts at Sayid that he’s killed the one man who could protect them. “You just let it in,” he says. Sayid grabs him and cuts his throat in a quick motion before kicking the corpse into the pool. “I know,” he says. And with that, the smoke monster arrives, sweeping through the Temple like a biblical plague and slaughtering those who were brave or foolish enough to stay. Kate and Miles take off running but split up so Kate can rescue Claire (which is a dumb idea, but that’s Kate). She gets to Claire, but Claire doesn’t want to leave the pit, and she also advises Kate that the pit’s the safest place to be. Kate flips down into the hole just as the smoke monster comes in and moves over it, gobbling up the other guys in the room. Kate looks up at the passing smoke arm with fear and trembling, but Claire regards it more with relief and satisfaction.

Miles winds up ducking into a side room and trying to block the door with his body as someone tries to kick it in, and he’s eventually overpowered. But the intruder is a good one: It’s Ilana, trailed by Frank, Sun, and Ben, who look like they’ve had their own little adventures getting there, too. Ben rushes off to find Sayid and discovers him at the pool, chilling on the steps and holding the bloody knife like that’s not a weird thing to do. Ben takes in the view of the floating corpses but doesn’t mention it, saying only that he knows a way out. “There’s still time,” Ben says. “Not for me,” Sayid tells him. (Between his rampage in this world and the other timeline, I’m tempted to start referring to him as Dark Sayid, or, yes, Darksayid. Wordplay!) Ben, never one to draw things out, turns and runs, meeting up with Ilana et al. as they move through the Temple to find the secret passageway that Jack and Hurley used earlier. Miles tells Sun that Jin just left the Temple a while ago, and was alive last he saw. They find the hidden door and use it, and it swings to a close just as the smoke monster rounds a corner and barrels by.

Sayid, Kate, and Claire emerge to find the courtyard filled with dead bodies scattered among small fires. They do a slow-mo walkthrough as a creeped-out version of “Catch a Falling Star” plays over the scene, and soon enough they exit and find the Enemy and a handful of people waiting outside the gate. He gives Sayid and Claire looks of quiet encouragement at a job well done, but he’s surprised to see Kate (now armed with a rifle she picked off a corpse) following behind them. The look he gives her knows she’ll be trouble, but there’s no time for that now. He cuts through the group and begins to lead them away from the Temple, into the night and onto the next step in the battle for the island.

And that’s that. This episode’s theme was Sayid Reluctantly Accepting Offers to Somehow Help Nadia, and it was a pretty good episode that pushed the ground plot forward after last week’s movement with the broader mythology of the island. The show’s never shied away from biblical parallels, not to make any religious point but because they have an air of the epic that a show about fate likes to have, and there were plenty in this episode, from the Passover imagery of the smoke monster’s vengeance to the Enemy’s promise to Sayid that he can have whatever he wants if he just does the Enemy a favor. Also, how the hell did Jin get in that freezer? Is his work for Mr. Paik tied to Keamy, or was that through something else? As for the island, now that the Temple has been destroyed, what’s next for the Enemy? Is Charles Widmore on the way, or sending people? What about Desmond? Will Kate be able to do anything helpful? I’d thought last week that her role as an island protector was in play, but at the recent Paley Television Festival in Los Angeles, executive producer Carlton Cuse said that her name is indeed crossed out, but that they hadn’t shot a good close-up or edited in the proper footage they needed to show this. Maybe she’ll need that rifle after all.

Daniel Carlson is the managing editor of Pajiba and a member of the Houston Film Critics Society, as well as a TV blogger for the Houston Press. You can visit his blog, Slowly Going Bald.


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Comments

He gives Sayid and Claire looks of quiet encouragement at a job well done, but he’s surprised to see Kate (now armed with a rifle she picked off a corpse) following behind them. The look he gives her knows she’ll be trouble,

I just recalled noticing that he didn't *speak* to her, as he did to Sayid. That's all I have right now.

Oh, and that pseudo-Mr. von noticed that Sayid *drowned* Dogen in the pool, as he was drowned previously. And so one wonders whether he'll come back also. (Not Lennon, though, as his throat was cut. He wasn't actually killed *in* the pool.) (Which pseudo-Mr. von has been referring to as the Fountain of Youth, by the way.)

Posted by: Anna von Murderpuppet at March 3, 2010 11:48 AM

The clunky dialogue was a prelude to what I found to be a profoundly disappointing episode. Dogen seems like quite the dummy (after the show made such efforts to portray him as a super-smart protector of the Temple) -- he sends Sayid out to meet with Not-Locke, knowing full well that there is no chance he's happen upon the Enemy and stab him before he speaks. And then Sayid returns to the pool and Dogen, knowing he is evil and has delivered a message from Not-Locke that guts the Temple of its residents (and secures them as Not-Locke recruits), then actually asks Sayid if he's going to stay? Huh?

Also, the whole "evil incarnate" thing is a little too pat for me. What is this, an update of Pure Concentrated Evil?

10 episodes left. Cuse/Lindelof have lots of 'splainin' to do in that time, having opened reams of new plot threads and questions 1/3 into the final season. Pray that this show doesn't end with a "who gives a shit" whimper like Abrahms' last TV project, Alias, did, burdened by confusing and ever-shifting plot lines.

Posted by: eddie walker at March 3, 2010 11:48 AM

So after last night's LOST, I had this LOST dream. I was trying to get back to the interior of the island, & by this time, much of the island was occupied by various regular peoples, including vacationers. But something was waiting for me in the island, & my journey there was repeatedly delayed by my flashbacks into my own past. In one flash, I came to in a hotel room with my girlie, & screamed at her to tell me the current year. Eventually I made it to the center of the island, where Smokey encircled me, prompting me to plead for my life, & to be allowed to stay on the island. Smokey enveloped me, presumably to kill me, but instead I was seized by this immensely powerful, physical sensation. When it stopped, I was in my parallel universe, & that's when I realized that Smokey had essentially killed me in the island universe, & I now existed in only the parallel, & the better for it. As I type this, I can recall how it felt when Smokey shocked my ass & sent me packing, it was intense. I was confused as shit when I woke up.

Posted by: the new transported man at March 3, 2010 11:50 AM

I believes that the eggs wuz fried.

And that is all I have to say because I've been up all night working.

The comment thread is going to be amazingly long before I wake up and give it a proper read.

But I will read it. Oh, you bet I'm going to read it.

Good night/morning, all.

P.S. Kate is retahded. The whole episode, I was begging Claire, "Go on, kill her!! Kill her already! She took your bye-bee!" I hope against hope that Kate'll get good and kilt every episode, and even though I know it'll never happen, I hope it anyway.

Posted by: Jelinas at March 3, 2010 12:02 PM

Some observations:

1) It's so sad to see Weak Ben now. It's a great role reversal but I miss him being a leader.

2) Terry O'Quinn is a brilliant actor, even better now that he's completely fucking evil.

3) Sayid's evil little smirk gave me chills. It's sad that he's been turned, but I think he was always leaning that way more than the others.


A few questions:

1) I thought Smokey couldn't pass the ash circles. Did Claire or Kate break them? Or are they just ineffective at this point?

2) If it wasn't the ash circles, but Dogen that kept Smokey out, who exactly WAS Dogen?

3) I really thought that the MIB's way out was through the Temple somehow, but I guess I was wrong. Why then, did he kill everyone in it? Just out of vengeance?

4) How did the speaking stop Sayid from killing MIB? I thought that was the weirdest thing in the episode.

Overall I thought it was mostly filler with some good bits thrown in, but all towards the end as Lost tends to do. The bit with the baseball was stupid, the clunky dialogue annoying and why won't Kate just DIE?

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 12:03 PM

I'm inclined to think that Dogen really did think that MIB would kill Sayid after Sayid attempted to kill him. Dogen must not have known that Jacob and MIB had a deal through which no candidate may be killed. So, his only goal was to kill the darkness growing inside Sayid, and he assumed that MIB would attack if provoked by a little thing like a knife in the chest.

Also, I am really upset that Sayid's gone totally bad now. I always hoped he's have some sort of happy ending, and now that doesn't seem possible. But, this is LOST we're talking about, so, you know, who the hell knows.

So, Kate's name IS crossed out, but it wasn't on the lighthouse wheel? What did she do to fuck it up?

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 12:04 PM

Does anyone know what Jin said when Sayid opened the cooler? He angrily said something in Korean, but I can't find a translation of it. I know some Lost fan has translated it.

Also, remember this? Wasn't Kate in the Judas position?
http://www.thinkhero.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lost-last-supper-image.jpg

Posted by: Norwego at March 3, 2010 12:04 PM

The speaking had nothing to do with why Sayid couldn't kill MIB - we already know he can't be killed by conventional means (remember LA X? The bullets?). I think Dogen just wanted to make sure he's make the attempt, so MIB'd get pissed and kill Sayid, before MIB was able to speak to him and make him the offer that would lead to Sayid's recruitment. I don't think Dogen counted on MIB's inablity to kill Sayid, and his desire to recruit as many of the candidates as possible.

Where the shit were Richard, Sawyer and Jin last night? Wasn't Richard on his way to the Temple last time we saw him? Did he stop for Five Guys or what?

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 12:07 PM

HA! I hadn't seen that before. It's pretty terrible/hilarious and Locke looks more like Mr. Clean than ever before.

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 12:09 PM

Okay, found it.

Jin said:
"Don't Kill me. Please. Let me live."

I love you, Lostpedia.
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sundown

Posted by: Norwego at March 3, 2010 12:10 PM

I get what you're saying about the stilted dialogue on the home front, but the reveal that Sayid was an interrogator was still surprising, if only b/c other character's sideways flashes have not guaranteed the same backgrounds...I really thought that maybe he was just a businessman as he had suggested to the kids.
I feel stupid, but can someone tell me what DTR stands for?
I completely 'squeed' when Keamy turned around-that's when the episode really took off for me. I've been walking around all day saying, "I make good eggs." to co-workers who also watch LOST. Out of curiousity, does anyone remember who killed Keamy the first time around on the island? Was it Sayid then too?
I think that Sayid's scale tipped to 'good' and that's why Dogen tried to kill him-cuz the Others are evil.
I love the fact that Locke called out Sayid on him trusting Dogen-really great scene. That's precisely what I had been thinking in my head. I'm also curious what would've happened if Locke hadn't gotten out that greeting before Sayid stabbed him.
Why is Kate taking Aaron off the island such a big deal? He's safe with Grandma & Claire disappeared-what else were they to do? The bigger question is why did Locke lie to Claire and tell her that the Others had him?
Will Dogen & Lennon actually survive b/c they're in the 'magic water'? I wonder if his story about his son and the baseball is really true?
Ben is still one of my faves-his expression during the Sayid interaction was Priceless.
Do you think the Smoke Monster can occupy multiple bodies at once? Sayid and Claire seem to carry themselves with the same confidence that Locke displayed once he became Smokey. Plus, there's something in the way they stare now-something in their eyes that's different.
Kate's face at the end of the ep was pretty priceless too. Bring on next Tuesday!

Posted by: gem at March 3, 2010 12:10 PM

DTR = Define the Relationship

And let's be honest, I'll take Sayid good or evil. He's been one of the most interesting characters on Lost because he's tipped both ways so many times, but you always sympathize with him.

Other than that, I'm just waiting to see what happens next. Maybe neither Jacob or MIB are the right choice and everyone else are just pawns in their petty game. Who knows?

Posted by: kelsy at March 3, 2010 12:17 PM

I think MIB lied to Claire because then Claire would go on setting traps, seeking revenge, killing Others left and right in an attempt to get her BAAAY BEEEEEE back.

Kolby, you think? I don't know, I'd think Dogen would know what MIB wouldn't want to kill Sayid, but you're probably right.

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 12:18 PM

I may be the only one, but I think it's pretty safe to assume now that Jacob is good and MIB is evil. Sometimes, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it really is a fucking duck, yanno?

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 12:20 PM

Figs, I think both Jacob and MIB have so far only told people what they needed to hear. Dogen had a job to do, so he was given only enough information to be able to do his job well. I think the "game" between Jacob and MIB was largely just between them, and it hadn't been necessary to inform folks of the role they may have been playing in the big picture. And MIB only SEEMS to be forthcoming now - he is telling people EXACTLY what they need to hear to do his bidding (Claire needs to know that Aaron will return to her, Sayid needs to hold Nadia again, Sawyer needs to get the hell off the damn island. These are all things these people are willing to do almost anything for).

That's just what I've been taking away from it, though.

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 12:24 PM

@eddie walker: that whole "evil incarnate" thing to me just serves to highlight one of the most interesting aspects of LOST, the whole ambiguous morality thing. It's just like in any given armed/political conflict (I won't mention any specific one but there's a very obvious one I'm trying to draw a parallel to here) where one side will accuse the other of being the harbinger of the apocalypse to further their agenda, often with not entirely unfundamented arguments. What I'm trying to say is, sure, we may think of the 'Jacob' side as the good guys now, but weren't they the ones responsible for a good part of the carnage/tragedy visited upon the survivors for like 3 seasons or something? Isn't Jacob responsible for a whole bunch of mayhem, either directly or indirectly (through his positioning Ben Linus as leader of the Others)?

Ok, I think I'm ignoring or forgetting some mayor plot points here to make some sense and that the show SEEMS to be pushing towards a definite "light side vs. dark side" confrontation, but what you've gotta realize is THIS: I haven't slept in the past couple of days (*brain expires*).

Posted by: Pancho at March 3, 2010 12:31 PM

That's very true--about them keeping it all to themselves. Jacob definitely kept a LOT of things from Ben, which is why Ben KILLED HIM, and I really can't blame Ben at all. The more I think about it the more I agree with you, and the knife Dogen gave Sayid had nothing special. Dogen WANTED MIB to kill Sayid, but that plan backfired big time. It makes sense, really.

I think this whole keeping things to themselves thing really reflects on what the writers are doing, and one of the reasons why this show is so frustrating: in a good mystery the author gives you hints through the story so that if you're good enough you can piece it together and maybe figure it out before the end. If you don't you can watch back and it all makes sense and you get an "aaaah!" moment watching certain things.

But not with Lost, and that makes it kind of a shitty mystery (and this is something I've talked about with Cindy a lot). The writers never give us all the information to figure it out ourselves, possibly because THEY have no idea how it will end either (or didn't until this season). So we really can't piece the big mystery together, and we get excited about every red herring they throw at us, which makes them bastards because they're just playing with us. Then they give us some 'answer' that makes us go 'aha!' but it's a weak sort of 'aha' because it doesn't really go anywhere. And so much of the past seasons has been filler that will never go anywhere, and that's really annoying, but I can't really blame the writers if they had no end date planned at the start.

Anyway, that was a big long rant against my frustrations with this show. I still love it, but it's really flawed in that way I think. I don't know where I was going with this, other than: stupid writers.

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 12:33 PM

You know, I'm thinking that maybe Sayid isn't "good," and has never been. He tried really really hard, but killing seems to be his nature (or, perhaps, his destiny), and he goes back to it time and again. He really doesn't seem to be able to get away from that. Even when it's for the "right" reasons. Kind of the same with Kate, almost... lying, stealing, taking Aaron, killing her stepfather; all "wrong" things done for "right" reasons.

Posted by: Anna von Murderpuppet at March 3, 2010 12:35 PM

Television is a visual medium that all too often pays no attention to visuals. The shot of Naveen Andrews' as he said, "Not for me" to Ben was as scary a shot as I've seen in any movie theater or on any stage in years.

Posted by: alone in the dark at March 3, 2010 12:39 PM

I'm with you, AvB. There have been a lot of times on the show when he's tried to be a good guy but kept getting dragged into being a bad guy, and not so reluctantly, either. It's like he knows he's good at being bad, so he's resigned himself to it. It's pretty sad, but I think I've known for a long time that he wouldn't have a happy ending.

Kate is just kind of an idiot, going around her life with a 'uh oh what did I just do?' attitude at everything she does.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Jin is just not able to walk so well right now, but I can't help but think it's just the writers delaying the Jin/Sun reunion even more and dragging it out for increased dramatic effect. I'd bet they see each other when one of them is wounded or dying.

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 12:46 PM

Ok, I want to know who Claire sees Smocke as ... I don't know that she actually visualizes him as Locke, because she told Jin "That's not John, that's my friend." WHO does he look like to HER?

Did no one else see Jack in the hospital? Sayid and Nadia were rushing in and Jack was walking down the hall, talking to another doctor. Very random...I mean, again it shows how all their lives intersect in the LA timeline, but it was kinda like, "oh, he's on set today...might was well use him."

I don't think Dogen drank ALL the time after work..he picked his boy up everyday from baseball, and was drunk because co-workers took him out to celebrate his promotion.

As for Smocke being able to cross the ash, either Claire or Sayid cleared it, or the rain affected it.

Co-worker and I were talking about last night's epi and the Gilligan's Island story, and decided that's how LOST is gonna end....its gonna be Gilligan's Island all over again. Lapis, as Skipper, will find a hat, and will spend lots of time hitting Jack (Gilligan) with it. Jack will cry. Kate (Ginger) will continue to screw her way thru the island while Sun (Mary Ann) continues to be wholesome and search for her true love. Smocke & Jacob (both as the Professor) will continue to come up with harebrained inventions, etc to get them off the island. Miles & Ilana (The Howells) will discover a cache of treasure on the island, and hide it from everyone, all the while lording their superiority over them.
Ben will be one of the chimps that always come along and screw everything up, and Sayid will be one of the mysterious bad guys who somehow gets to the island to start something, then manages to get back off. Claire's just, I believe the phrase was...wolfshit insane.

Posted by: dammitjanet at March 3, 2010 12:50 PM

Pray that this show doesn't end with a "who gives a shit" whimper like Abrahms' last TV project, Alias, did, burdened by confusing and ever-shifting plot lines.

Oh, it will.I have no doubt of that.

But I still love me some Terry O'Quinn. What a sexy manbeast. Does this show go up on ABC.com? I might need to see this episode.

Posted by: Gabs at March 3, 2010 12:52 PM

Heeheee, you cracked me up, dammitjanet. I'd also never heard "Smocke". I thought it was a typo then (because I am slow) it dawned on me and I laughed even harder. Heeheeehee

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 1:04 PM

Ben's reaction to the bloody-dagger wielding Sayid may have been the most realistic human interaction depicted on Lost. In the Lost canon, we may expect Ben to sit and talk and attempt to reason with Sayid, but seriously, who the hell would have reacted any differently than Ben did?
Angry Iraqi + Bloody Dagger + Two Dead Bodies = About face and Run.

Also, I was surprised to hear Dogen say he was a businessman, not Doctor, as the parallels between him and Jack keep piling up (alcoholism, "Among us but not one of us"[Dogen's reason for using a translator,] and I'd bet the house that Dogen has some Daddy issues.)

Posted by: tripM at March 3, 2010 1:05 PM

AvMp - that's a good point about destiny. Sayid may have tried throughout his life to change and be a good person, but, like his dad told him when he was little, he's a killer. Same with Kate, no matter what Jacob told her, or how often she gets caught, she only knows one way to be - shifty and afraid of committment.

Is there anyone on the island who really has a choice? Is that why Jack's so important? He's really the only one in his flashsideways so far who's made a conscious effort to change. Is that something we should be paying attention to?

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 1:11 PM

Thought and question: So NotLocke tells Sayid he can have the one thing he wants, which is obviously Nadia, but in that universe Nadia is dead. My thought was, can he move through the universes? Can he and Jacob move through the universes? It made the whole alternate universe thing this season more relevant to me. Just a thought.

I'm feeling a real lack of Ben this season. I miss his mad manipulations, and I hope there's something up his sleeve. And I echo the question, what the hell happened to Richard?

Posted by: Katers at March 3, 2010 1:59 PM

Katers, I think MIB is a lying liar who lies.

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 2:09 PM

So, Kate's name IS crossed out, but it wasn't on the lighthouse wheel? What did she do to fuck it up?

that a rhetorical question right? Kate does nothing but fuck up all day every day. i was beyond pissed at Claire--she basically promised to kill Kate for taking her bye-bee, then she just gave her the evil eye and let her go. i'm hoping that she is counting on Smocke (LOVE that) taking care of Kate for her, but i don't want to count on that.

i don't think Sayid is evil just because he's a killer (it could be because i'm reading The Sword of Truth series right now). sometimes killing is the only way to survive and in a situation like the one the Losties have been facing it was kill or be killed. now the killing he did for Ben isn't quite the same, as far as we know, but i don't think being a killer necessarily makes him evil.

want to know who Claire sees Smocke as

Charlie maybe? his body was probably floating around somewhere--not buried--so it could be him. she won't use his name until it is revealed to the viewers in typical Lost fashion.

Posted by: pq at March 3, 2010 2:18 PM

Well, I think now she only sees Smocke (I'm so using that name from now on) as Smocke, as he can't shape shift. But I'm guessing before she saw him first as her dad, then some other shape and he told her he changed shapes. She just knows it's not really John Locke.

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 2:21 PM

I understand that people take issue with Kate's personality flaws, but obviously Jacob thought she was worthy of something at some point. My question was not rhetorical. I would like to know what it was that Kate did that forced Jacob to cross her name off. Because however hateful her character is, Kate is not an evil person. She is dangeriously flawed, makes bad decisions, and is afraid of love, but she is not evil.

Sayid is evil now, not because he's a killer, but because of WHY he is now killing people. I cannot think of one situation in the past 5 season where Sayid has killed for no apparent reason - until tonight. Yes, Dogen admitted that he wished Sayid dead, but Sayid killed him at a point when he knew Dogen posed no threat to his life. Same thing with Lennon. Yes, Sayid is evil. I just hope he can be redemmed.

Also, less than 30 comments? Come on, people.

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 2:34 PM

A couple of points:

1. I think Claire does see Smokey as Locke, but she just knows it isn't him. When Jin called him John, she laughed it off almost playfully, like she had forgotten that someone could make that mistake and finds it sort of silly. More interesting is that she seems to differentiate between her friend and Christian; different entities after all, perhaps?

2. I really didn't like the fight between Dogen and Sayid, because it had been made very clear that Dogen can't kill him, and so the whole time I was just wondering "why? Why is this happening?" So, I wasn't really able to get into it.

Posted by: kyle at March 3, 2010 2:49 PM

In that Lost Last Supper picture, I thought Sayid was in the Judas position (apropos!). It's all a little murky, but Jack is for sure in the Doubting Thomas position (perfect) and Sawyer is in the Peter position (first Pope? Replacement for Jacob? I hope so! I love a full-on redemption). The queerest thing about that photo, though, is what is Smocke doing in the Jesus position. I agree whole-heartedly that Smocke is, if not evil incarnate, then def. not a force of good (the bodies keep piling up). Jesus (whatever your beliefs-I'm atheist so please don't think I'm proselytizing) WAS a force for good, undeniably. The Passover allusion could make Smocke more of an OT God who was not averse to mass-killings of sinners and non-believers (The Flood, etc.)

And maybe I missed something, but I didn't see Ben join up with Ilana, et al. I thought he missed the boat somehow and is elsewhere in the Temple. . .? And I think Claire is just biding her time to kill Kate. I mean, after all, she didn't have her trusty, extremely heavy and rusty axe, nor her rifle.

And I dunno, I'd say Kate f*cked up before she even got to the island, what the the murdering. But maybe it was cage sex with Sawyer that did it. If that's wrong, I don't wanna be a candidate.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:05 PM

Oh, also, in our household, it's as much a point of hilarity to us when Sun says, "Whehs mah husssband?" as when Claire screams "My BAY-BAY!" So when Miles asked Sun, "Where's your husband?" we about died.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:07 PM

Kolby, i thought Sayid "killed" Dogen so Smocke could come into the Temple. i'm not sure about Lennon, but just because i don't know the reason doesn't mean he didn't have a good one. i'm also curious as to whether they will really be dead since they died in the revival water.

i'm not sure that Jacob and Smocke break down as good and evil/back and white. of course, i have a hard time seeing most people as evil, but i'm not sure that being evil gets you crossed off the list. Kate should have been crossed off because she is a selfish fuck up--even though she has been given many, many chances to change--but i don't think she's evil.

Posted by: pq at March 3, 2010 3:16 PM

With such a small number of comments so far I can keep up on this in real time today. I was a little disappointed with this episode. Not so much because of its quality, but because of the way ABC hyped it as being full of answers. I didn't feel like that many questions were answered, but the plot was greatly moved forward. I'm trying to stay in a 'along for the ride' mindset and not kill the experience with my expectations.

Smocke in the Jesus position is the only thing that keeps me from lumping him completely in the evil bucket. I agree that the body count does keep rising but we still don't know the full story. I'm going to reserve judgment for a little longer. Right now I'm about 80/20 (evil/good). As for the Lost Supper picture, if you compare it to the Last Supper it's a little hard to tell who is in the Judas position. Take a look at both. I think it could be either Sayid or Kate, although it might be more intuitive to put Kate in the Mary Magdaline position. But now I feel like I'm nitpicking.

I was wondering about the connection to Smocke saying he's going to destroy the island, and the island's fate in the flash sideways timeline. I don't know how things are going to play out for the people, but I'm thinking the fate of the island is for it to be destroyed once and for all.

The Jin/Sun reunification delay is driving me crazy, especially since this has already happened once before (season 2 or 3?). And I'm anxiously awaiting the return of Richard.

Posted by: katy at March 3, 2010 3:24 PM

Yeah, upon rewatch of that scene, Ben definitely didn't make it out with Ilana and co. And I got excited cause the jacuzzi jets in the pool were a-bubbling and a-roiling as Dogen and Lennon were floating in it, but then, upon rewatch, I saw the jacuzzi jets are always on in the Temple Pool Room.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:25 PM

Another thought...if it is difficult to tell who is in the Judas position, it's interesting that both Kate and Sayid are now together with the Smocke followers.

Posted by: katy at March 3, 2010 3:28 PM

And I'm anxiously awaiting the return of Richard.

Yes, LOL (and I never LOL) to whomever above said Richard must have stopped for burgers. Where are you, Richard? But, more importantly, WHERE IS DESMOND?

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:28 PM

coveredinbees, I donʻt think the Lost Supper photo has Smocke in the Jesus position to imply that he is good as much as to say that he is the focus of it all.

One thing I noticed on the recap episode from last week was that in the lighthouse, the mirror showed the places where Jacob touched the candidates (the temple where Jin and Sun were married, and the church steps where he gave Sawyer the pen) but at the "Shephard" setting, it showed the house Jack grew up in, not the hospital where Jacob passed him the candy bar. Weird?

Posted by: tob at March 3, 2010 3:31 PM

But if Locke is the focus of it all, a bizarro-Jesus if you will, then we have to cast all the other characters in a different light as well. In that sense a bizarro-Judas would be a good thing, because killing Smocke would be a good thing. . .etc?

Or, possibly, the producers are chuckling merrily in their beds made of money because I'm scratching my head over this. "It's a stupid photo, you weird, rabid fan!"

Yeah, in regards to the Lighthouse, weird. I have my cynical explanations (if he had shown the hospital then Jack couldn't have his, "HE'S BEEN WATCHING AND MANIPULATING US OUR ENTIRE LIVES! *Smash*" freak out).

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:36 PM

I'm sure some Art Historians would love to bitch slap me for this, but Mary Magdaline is not technically in the Last Supper painting. That's just conjecture. But the figure sitting at the right hand of Jesus is awfully feminine. Ok, I swear I'm done on this!

Posted by: katy at March 3, 2010 3:36 PM

(there, Kolby I'm trying to single-handedly fix that comment count for ya. here's another.)

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:36 PM

Yeah I wasn't touching that Mary Magdalene thing because Dan Brown has had his grubby hands all over it. Bleaugh, smells of shitty syntax and trite tropes.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:38 PM

I don't think the Temple jacuzzi has healing powers anymore. It wasn't able to revive Sayid, remember? I think when Jacob died, everything started to fall apart. I supposed he really was protecting the island. Not from anything or anyone outside, but from someone who was there all along.

And I've only heard it been said that Sayid occupies the Judas position in the Last Supper picture.

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 3:38 PM

Ah, the Temple Room Jacuzzi club may have lost it's healing properties, but the water is still fizzy and warm, and drinks are on the house!!

Posted by: dammitjanet at March 3, 2010 3:43 PM

Try the Chow Mein in the Temple Food Court! Don't mind the dead bodies.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 3:46 PM

I think ALL Art Historians would bitchslap anyone who suggested Mary Magdalene was in the Last Supper. Fuck you Dan Brown for promoting that ridiculous stupid story.

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 3:46 PM

If Sayid does end up betraying Smocke then I suppose that could end up being his final redemption, or the final nail in the evil coffin.

Posted by: katy at March 3, 2010 3:49 PM

For all of Jack's pissing and moaning and bitching and whining, no one has gotten more played on that whole island than Sayid. He's been played by the major players, by the bit players getting played by the major players, by himself. He needs a break.

And after their little Sarah Jane Adventures entrance I want to know what's been going on with Ilana and her motley crew of of under-scripted adventurers.

And was Kate literally just junglin' out for all this time? She left and got rejected by Sawyer just to...spend all of that time...walking back to the Temple...really...slowly...

Posted by: coryo at March 3, 2010 4:00 PM

This is LOST, right? The show that takes thirteen episodes to tell a half day's worth of story? Yes, yes it is. So, the last three episodes were probably all happening somewhat simultaneously. Ilana, Frank, Sun & Ben were all trekking to the Temple, while Kate was out & about, running into Jack & Hurley who were hiking to the Lighthouse. It probably all happened on the same day. Seriously, I bet it's only been one or two days since they all got to the Temple.

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 4:09 PM

Coryo, I've been wondering what's up with Kate a bit because of that one time (um, in last week's ep when they left the temple for the lighthouse) where Jack and Hurley walked past her in the jungle and when was sitting by the river and they went stomping and crashing and talking loudly past her, and then Jack noticed her and said hi, and she jumped up all freaked out and pulled a gun on him. What was up with *that*? So, maybe that and the really... slow... walking... are related.

Posted by: Anna von Murderpuppet at March 3, 2010 4:15 PM

That doesn't explain Richard who intersected Sawyer and Smocke in the jungle and then went running like holy hell towards the Temple. Meanwhile Smocke stopped by the cave in the cliff, and stopped by to get Claire. Even if Smocke traveled in between those two places as the Smoke Monster, I still think Richard, at least should have beat him.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 4:17 PM

We all know that’s what Sayid did, and more importantly, Sayid knows it and doesn’t need to be reminded of it. That’s why Omer’s talking to him in the first place. Just: ugh.

I agree that a couple of LAX-Sayid's scenes were a little belabored, but I do think it was necessary to tell us this fact. As far as I can tell, anything that happens after 1977 is fair game for a change in the LAX universe. He didn't have to still be a torturer.

kolby >> No, you're not the only one. I said the same thing last week after the confirmation that Smokey is crazy Claire's "friend." The guy is indeed evil incarnate as far as I can tell. Dogen and some of his followers might have been misguided at some points, but I take anything he actually revealed at face value.

coryo >> I don't think Kate's intention was to return to the Temple until she had that conversation with Jack in last week's episode. Her mission is to find Claire, and Jack told her that the Temple folks had information about Claire.

General comment: I was very much digging the transformation into crazy-evil Sayid. Someone else mentioned above that Kate's death seemed imminent at the end; I did get the vibe it was about to happen. I guess not.

General complaint: I can't believe I missed Paley Fest LOST! That's very upsetting. I thought I was on their mailing list. (And now I know why a friend of a friend sawy Terry, Josh, and Evangeline in LA last week.)

Only open question about last night's episode: What was Sawyer doing this whole time? Last time we saw him he supposedly struck a deal with Smokey. Is he hanging out at Smokey's Island base?

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 3, 2010 4:17 PM

coveredinbees >> Agreed about Richard. Maybe he got sidetracked and we'll find out in the Richard episode?

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 3, 2010 4:31 PM

Richard was with me last night. Sorry folks, he just can't seem to get enough.

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 4:34 PM

So, Kolby, how DOES one wash guyliner smudges out of pillowcases? Inquiring minds want to know.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 4:44 PM

@tob: no, you're not the only one who wondered about jack seeing his dad's house in the mirror.
my thought is that jacob was watching christian, not jack. when christian didn't come thru as a candidate, then jack was focused on. also, perhaps in that sideways flash, jack has a son b/c since in that option he never went to the island, maybe the focus will be on his son-and on it goes until the shepards eventually come thru & do whatever it is they are meant to do? in that vein, do you think that christian began drinking himself to death b/c of some experience HE had on the island, much like jack wound up doing when the oceanic six first got back?

Posted by: gem at March 3, 2010 4:46 PM

Couldn't tell you. We don't sleep. Zing!

Posted by: Kolby at March 3, 2010 4:46 PM

After Kate fell into the pit with Claire, we didn't see her again until after smokey was gone. She joins Bad Locke/Smokey/Flocke/MIB, Sayid, and Claire. Something happened to her in the pit. That look from Bad Locke wasn't confusion or hesitation, it was acknowledgement that she is now part of the DARK SIDE.

Posted by: Corey at March 3, 2010 4:58 PM

I don't think Kate is DARK-SIDED!! Well, at least not yet.

As usual, and to the frustration of hairy-armpitted feminists everywhere, she is once again in thrall to the most powerful man of the moment.

She's such an awesome female role model.

Posted by: Poultice at March 3, 2010 5:17 PM

Hey man Kate is just following Claire, because she hasn't realized what a sh*t position that puts her in. . .yet. She also doesn't know Locke is evil and possessed yet, right? I'm not sure on that one. She just knows Locke is dead? Plus, SHE'S GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO (yes I watched An Officer and A Gentleman this weekend, what of it?)

And as much as I think Kate is a stupid manipulative ho-bag, I do appreciate that home-girl picked up a rifle on her way out of dodge.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 5:26 PM

Just a quick thought about the Last Supper picture: what if that isn't supposed to be Smocke in the Jesus position, but Real Locke? There have been rumblings from the producers and Matthew Fox about the timelines converging, and I suppose that could lead to a rad-ass showdown between the Lockes, setting up Real Locke to be the Jesus.

If any of that happens.

Posted by: kyle at March 3, 2010 5:39 PM

Wow, I'm late to the party today, but the comment sap is flowing slow. MORE!

We all know how much LOST thrives on red herrings, so I'm only about 90% convinced Sayid's deal with Smocke is about Nadia.

I laughed out loud after the Dogen/Sayid fight, saying "You are lucky my baseball told me to spare your life!"

How did Kate not feel the WAVES OF CRAZY coming off of Claire in her true-pit-confessions?

Anyone else feel that, for the flash-sideways, the writers are rolling character-named dice to see who pops up where?

And where was the odd moment of recognition we have had in all of the other sideways flashes?

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 3, 2010 5:39 PM

YAY! Patty's here!

I don't think Locke had a moment of recognition either, if I recall.

And are you, COULD YOU, be implying that Sayid's deal with the devil is about Shannon? Horrors.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 5:44 PM

Maybe not even Shannon, covered, as I have hated few people (or names) as much as Shannon. I just try not to be certain of much of anything on LOST.

Hm, I thought Locke had a moment with Jack... I will have to rewatch it.

I was sorely disappointed that they broke the pattern of repeating centic-order, because I REALLY want to know what was up with Mr Kwon and Ms Paik (!) in "LA X"!

(By the way, covered, that reception absolutely made my life)

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 3, 2010 6:17 PM

Someone just raised a good question in another forum:

Who ordered the Dharma massacre? If it was Jacob through Richard (to Ben), then it goes as further proof that Jacob isn't all good and merciful. We already know he 'drives a hard bargain', and I think that he would do ANYTHING to keep the Island "safe". Including genocide.

Posted by: figgy at March 3, 2010 6:25 PM

But not with Lost, and that makes it kind of a shitty mystery (and this is something I've talked about with Cindy a lot). The writers never give us all the information to figure it out ourselves, possibly because THEY have no idea how it will end either (or didn't until this season). So we really can't piece the big mystery together, and we get excited about every red herring they throw at us, which makes them bastards because they're just playing with us.
Figgy

I'll second that idea.
One third of the season is gone, and all I see is an addiction to the WTF. I don't think they know how to answer the questions without letting go of their momentum, so they aren't going to. Cuse said they aren't going to show the "connection" between the two universes until the finalé, which I pretty much didn't expect them to, but I don't think they will answer anything really until then -- and even then, they seem to be trying to warn us that they intend to just let a whole lotta stuff dangle. Especially if they are still bringing in new characters, just to kill them off. Think this is important? Ha -- Sucka!

I'll reserve judgement until the Richard episode, but if he doesn't explain a buncho stuff, I'm going to start expecting to never know most of the main stuff.

How does the island move? Why?
Why does turning the donkey wheel throw you to Tunisia?
And how did a polar bear turn the wheel?
What is the smoke monster? not who -- what?
Technology? Supernatural? Spiritual/Mythological?
What are the Whispers?
The Magic Box?
The Sickness?
The baby plague?
The Fountain O Youth?
The Christ Child?
The Cabin?
The Statue? (that's a relatively small one, and I think they'll dump it too.)
Want to know why four toes? Go ahead and guess.
We just thought it would be cool.


Those are all big questions, many of which I half expect them to ignore, especially if they want to hold all of their cards until the final hour. They just won't have time. With one third of their time already gone, I think we can feel the pace they will use for doling out "answers." I would like an explanation for the cave and the lighthouse, but I bet right now, I won't get one. It's just gonna remain a mystery. Almost an emperor's new clothes, clap for Tinkerbell kind of thing -- it's awesome if you believe it's awesome and for as long as you believe.

As for the even smaller things, does anyone really expect satisfaction at this point?

Hurley Bird, anyone?

never.
gonna.
happen.


Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 3, 2010 6:52 PM

figgy:

I think the issue of who exactly Ben was receiving orders from during his tenure is one that's still up in the air. We've been led to assume that the figure that he thought of as Jacob, in the cabin, was not Jacob at all; it's possible that he's been inadvertently a pawn of Smokey's for a lot longer than we think. Besides, we know the Smoke Monster didn't much care for the Dharma Initiative (hence the fence), and wholesale slaughter seems to be a hobby of his (see: last night's episode). I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was Smokey who ultimately engineered the Purge.

Posted by: kyle at March 3, 2010 6:52 PM

figgy:

I think the issue of who exactly Ben was receiving orders from during his tenure is one that's still up in the air. We've been led to assume that the figure that he thought of as Jacob, in the cabin, was not Jacob at all; it's possible that he's been inadvertently a pawn of Smokey's for a lot longer than we think. Besides, we know the Smoke Monster didn't much care for the Dharma Initiative (hence the fence), and wholesale slaughter seems to be a hobby of his (see: last night's episode). I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was Smokey who ultimately engineered the Purge.

Posted by: kyle at March 3, 2010 7:06 PM

That means Richard was mislead for a long time as well. Which saddens me. Poor mislead Richard.

In terms of Kosmic Koyote's frustration, I was down at the beach where they shoot lost the other day (trying, JUST TRYING to stalk Desmond) and I saw something that I don't think is a spoiler, but I'm going to protect just in case.

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
SPOILER???????
They were shooting a scene on the beach from a looooooooong time ago, very much pre 1977 if you get my drift, between kid versions of MIB and Jacob. This is not for the Richard episode, I think, hope, it's for a chock-a-block full of answers episode.
END SPOILER???????
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Anyway, in non-potentially spoilery news, I really think there are some questions we would all do better by letting go. MOSTLY stuff from Season 1 because it's sort of my impression that JJ ran the show in Season 1 and then the current guys, whose names I always mangle so I'm not going to try, took over, and, I think, made the show UBER better. I consider Season 1 sort of an anomaly. So do I worry about Polar Bears? Nope I sure don't. I think the little gesture to Adam and Eve that we got in last week's episode was all we're gonna get. Or maybe I'm wrong. But I'm still enjoying the what-the-fuckery/biblical and mythological allusion of it all. What other show generates THIS MUCH DISCUSSION? If I knew what was coming, or could even guess, I would be bored.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 7:08 PM

damn computer, double-postin' and shit.

Rather than waste this post, I'll say the following to Kosmic Koyote:

The Magic Box isn't actually anything, Ben said it was a metaphor for the island.

I'd be willing to bet that the Sickness is whatever infection / compulsion that Smokey puts in people like Claire, Sayid, and most of the French team.

The Statue is of Tawaret; we know that at least. Why it's there, haven't a clue.

Anyway, that's all I got. I also hope that Richard's episode explains a lot, but I think I have a bit more faith that things will end satisfactorily than most people.

Posted by: kyle at March 3, 2010 7:10 PM

kyle >> Agreed on the possible origins of the purge. Given that we found out that: 1) Ben never met or spoke to Jacob, 2) Richard doesn't even know what a "Candidate" is, and 3) Dogen puts aside many of his impulses in the name of unquestioning Island duty, I think we can assume that The Others have taken a lot of liberties in their stewardship and information has been as much on a need-to-know basis for them as it has been for us. Basically it seems that they weren't doing much more than reading tea leaves.

Kosmic Koyote >> I guess it's personal taste, but to echo Mr. Carlson's opinion in the opening of his "LA X" review, I don't really need specific answers to all those things you listed, and some of them have already even been answered sufficiently for me and just require a little bit of inference. (E.g., I think "The Sickness" is now covered.) I'd just assume some of it be left to the imagination. That said, I expect at least half of the items in your list will be addressed again in some way.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 3, 2010 7:11 PM

P.S. Patty, you're my constant, didn't you know that?

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 7:32 PM

The conventional wisdom of late is that the Man in Black / Fake Locke and the Smoke Monster are the same entity. I'm not 100% convinced that this is entirely correct.

Consider this: Back in Season 4, Keamy and his mercenary pals had surrounded Ben's cabin in Dharmaville. Keamy had just killed Ben's daughter Alex. Ben disappears down a secret passage for a few moments. Minutes later the Smoke Monster appears and kills the mercenaries.

Now, if Ben and the Others work for Jacob, and Jacob and MiB are enemies, why would MiB manifest himself as Smokey and do Ben a favor? This leads to a number of possibilities.

1. There could be more than one Smoke Monster. Perhaps Jacob can also manifest himself as a Smokey.

2. The Smoke Monster is some third entity. Maybe Jacob had control of Smokey in the past. Maybe after Jacob was killed, MiB has control of Smokey. Maybe Smokey is a free agent.

3. I suppose that the mercenaries might have been a threat to both Jacob and MiB, and hence Smokey merely took care of a problem once Ben brought it to his attention.

Posted by: Ojo Verde at March 3, 2010 8:04 PM

Back to that "Last Supper" photo for a moment -- according to Da Vinci's notes, each Lostie would be in the position of the following apostle, etc. HOWEVER, the last 3 or 4 are unclear, since there are only 13 figures in the painting, and 14 cast members. Also, only Kate and Locke are in poses that duplicate the original, so all that might mean nothing at all. (from left to right):

Ilana (Bartholomew), Richard (James the Less), Claire (Andrew), Sayid (Peter), Kate (Judas), Sawyer (John), Locke or MIB (Jesus), Jack (Thomas), Jin (James), Ben (Philip), Hurley (Matthew), Sun (Thaddeus?), Miles (Simon Zealotes?), Frank Lapidus (?)

Posted by: Sweeney Todd at March 3, 2010 8:23 PM

^-^

Oh noes, that only reminds me of the recent lack of Desmond... I suppose we should discuss theories for that...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 3, 2010 8:53 PM

Ojo Verde >> It's not just "conventional wisdom." Watch the "pop-up" LOST recaps, and they have explicitly confirmed it: Fake Locke = Man In Black = Smoke Monster. I don't have the full justification for how Ben summoned him, and I'm not saying there couldn't be a second Smoke Monster (narratively dissatisfying though it might be to me), but that equation is true, unless they are lying in the recaps. I recommend the recaps; I know it's an extra hour per week to watch something you already saw, but there are all sorts of little Easter eggs they throw in.

I think the "red herring" factor of LOST is a little overrated. For the most part if they show or tell you something in season 4 or later, you can take it as it appears. Certainly they never show or tell you everything, but it doesn't take much if any inference for a lot of these more minor answers. Even Ben has almost entirely stopped lying.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 3, 2010 8:55 PM

Ojo Verde:

I think your third option is the closest to being correct. The producers have said that we had never seen Jacob, in any form, before "The Incident, Parts 1&2", which rules out the idea that he's another smoke monster, and in "LA X," Not-Locke told Ben, "I'm sorry you had to see me that way" after smoke-monstering the fuck out of Bram and the other guys. Also, in "The Substitute," we saw things from Smokey's point of view, honed in on a machete, and then suddenly Locke was picking up said machete. I think it's very, very safe to assume that Not-Locke and Smokey are one and the same, and not a third entity.

Posted by: kyle at March 3, 2010 9:04 PM

I'm way late, but I guess I may as well jump in.

First, let's remember that Claire told Dogen to send someone out of the temple who can't be killed - that's why Dogen sent out Sayid. Sayid already died and is claimed, so it didn't matter what happened, he was a safe "person" to go out and get MIB's message.

Next, how about Kate going on and on about taking care of Aaron (and I like the way she specifically used the word "raised" - as in raised by another) while Claire's face was twisting into monstrous anger. How could Kate not notice how angry Claire was becoming? Then after - when Kate flung herself over the side of the pit to be safe from Smokey, why didn't Claire go after Kate? She told Jin she'd kill Kate if his story was true.

I've posted some of my thoughts all over the place, but I'll drop a bit here as well. I feel like we have to get back to basics here. Lost started out as an idea for a show about people who crash on an island. When they brought in JJ, he had his own twist on the idea, but I'm trying so hard to think about the original pitch. There was a beginning, a middle and an end, as there are to all stories. A basic storyline. And everyone has said from outset that the whole basic story was known/mapped out - they knew were they were going. I do believe that. What I also believe is that much of the middle is just embellishment. As we know, things went meandering before an end date was set. That's because the writers and producers didn't know how long they'd be stretching out everything. My point is, we know there is a lot of filler surrounding the story. Ben is pretty much all filler, interesting though he may be. I think everyone knows that Michael Emerson was originally only supposed to be on for a few episodes, and when he became so interesting, all the Ben stuff kicked into gear. But let's remember, he was not central to the main story, as much of the mythology and side stories must also not be.
So what is the main story? I feel like we've been watching a master magician, whose slight of hand has us so dazzled that we can't see the forest for the trees. How can so many people be watching a show and unable to find the main story? It has to be right in front of us.

But as I've also said in other conversations, by this time in the game Battlestar Galactica was giving the audience real information and pieces that we could begin to put together. I'm feeling a bit jerked around and played with after this episode. As fun as Sayid kicking ass was, I want a little better, and I'm getting nervous about how things will wind down. I do have a feeling that in some ways the show will end as it began - we'll see that eye opening again. Maybe Jack's maybe not, but I think something is going to start all over again.

Finally, can I be the one to beg that spoilers not be discussed here? I think a great many of us avoid them at all costs.

Posted by: Cindy at March 3, 2010 9:11 PM

I just watched this episode and all I can muster up for it is: “twas OK”. I’ve gotten used to the way LOST seasons air. The first episode of the season is great, then there is some filler stuff where the audience is presented with more questions, and finally the last 3 or 4 episodes are fantastic and filled with answers. I want some goddamn answers already!

Posted by: Scully at March 3, 2010 9:37 PM

I'd be disappointed if the writers try to give too many (easy) answers.

Lingering mystery is more satisfying.

What I'm getting from Season 6 so far is not so much a "battle between Good & Evil" but more between Optimism/Free Will vs. Pessimism/Fate.

Despite some cheesy dialogue/exposition I'm really liking this season.

Posted by: oskar at March 3, 2010 10:03 PM

I remembered that when Hugo ran into Jacob by the pool last episode he was kneeling down seemingly examining the water...I know he is kinda dead and all, but...I mean I just cant understand why they'd introduce a character like Dogen only to kill him so very quickly. Also...Kate needs to die. Kill her to motivate Jack. Kill her to motivate anyone. Kill her to erase her from the show. She just needs to die.

Posted by: Gamal at March 3, 2010 10:28 PM

Jacob just fixed the Jacuzzi Jets! Resurrection ON. (I like it).

Patty we could talk about why Desmond is not on the island and not in that Last Supper picture, but then I might cry.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 3, 2010 11:44 PM

There were two groups of people at war for the island and two gods at war for control of the island. And these gods like to manipulate humans to help them advance their plans. I am really not convinced that Smocke is evil or that Jacob is good. Smocke is clearly motivated by personal desires but does that make it evil? And Jacob doesn't seem to mind casualties to advance his agenda either. My big question is not good or bad but what and why. What are these two entities and why are they at war for the island? Did the island give them their special powers or did their special powers infuse the island? Why are they there and why can't they (or why don't they) leave? I don't need all the questions answered, but these are basic tenants of the show and if they get answered I will be happy.

Posted by: Morgan LaFai at March 4, 2010 6:32 AM

And Jacob doesn't seem to mind casualties to advance his agenda either.

I dunno. I have the impression that Jacob does care about the people who die for his agenda. At least, he projects remorse when discussing it. He might be full of shit and simply doing it for sympathy. But, I guess I'm a sucker like that, and I believe that Jacob cares. If not...*whimper* hold me?

Posted by: Scully at March 4, 2010 8:11 AM

Lingering mystery is more satisfying.
Agreed, oskar, agreed.

Oh my stars and garters, covered, I hadn't even noticed he wasn't in the Lost Supper!

It might be one thing if he hadn't appeared AT ALL this season, but to pop in on the plane, and then hide away... too cruel, LOST, too cruel. I NEED to know that Penny and Charlie are OK. I suppose we can hope they are the folks coming to the Island, even though I liked Grags' idea of it being Walt...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 4, 2010 9:37 AM

Lindelhof & Cuse have discussed which questions are more likely than others to be answered. It's all out there on the internet for those willing to search a bit.

And I am totally picking up what DarthCorleone and Kyle are slamming down.

Posted by: Kolby at March 4, 2010 9:41 AM

Desmond is definitely coming back. I think they're just trying to keep us in the dark as to just who it is who's coming to the island. Jacob very clearly said it was a "he" when speaking to Hurley in the jacuzzi room, but then he switched it to "they" after Jackass smashed the mirrors.

I really love Jacob. I love his facial expressions and yes, I think he really does care about these people. I don't know if it's because he needs them to protect the island, or if it's just because he's good.

Posted by: Kolby at March 4, 2010 9:44 AM

@ Gem: I thought the same thing!! Jacob was watching Christian, not Jack. I also think Christian had a previous experience on the island. Maybe instead of Jack's son, what about Claire or Aaron? What if Aaron somehow comes back to the island? At the beginning of her pregnancy, she saw a psychic who wouldn't do her reading, but she later convinced him. He told her that she had to raise the baby herself because danger surrounded the baby!!!

Posted by: Tenis at March 4, 2010 12:41 PM

Also, I don't think Aaron ever left the island.

Posted by: Tenis at March 4, 2010 1:05 PM

Kate didn't actually "choose" to go with the Locke and his followers. She hid from the monster's wrath in the pit with Claire, then emerged with the others. I think when Locke sees Kate he is debating whether or not he should just kill her and for whatever reason he decided not to. But she is the only person in that group that never chose which side to follow. That has to mean something.

Posted by: TylerDFC at March 4, 2010 1:07 PM

It means Kate is as indecisive, fickle and obnoxious as ever.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 4, 2010 1:27 PM

True, but I'm thinking there may be MORE beyond the obvious.

Posted by: TylerDFC at March 4, 2010 1:34 PM

Also, I don't think Aaron ever left the island.
Posted by: Tenis at March 4, 2010 1:05 PM

...........srsly? Do you mind, then, telling me where Kate got the random jungle baby from? I'm genuinely curious to hear your thoughts.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 4, 2010 1:52 PM

Jungle Patch Baby! Collect them all!

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 4, 2010 2:12 PM

...........srsly? Do you mind, then, telling me where Kate got the random jungle baby from? I'm genuinely curious to hear your thoughts.

When Sawyer went looking for Claire after she vanished, he found Aaron (or was it Aaron?) in the jungle. What if the baby was swapped with another blue eyed baby? I know it's far fetched. Crazier things have happend on the island. I keep going back to the psychic that told Claire that she is to raise the baby b/c he's surrounded by darkness. I'm probably way off....but that was one of my thoughts.

Posted by: Tenis at March 4, 2010 2:24 PM

Smocke is clearly motivated by personal desires but does that make it evil?

That alone - no.

The fact that he kills, deceives, and watches idly as those he has manipulated into loyalty go into an insane, homicidal, self-destructive rage? I'd say that easily qualifies as evil.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 4, 2010 2:50 PM

I know y'all love your Kate-bashing, but Kate hasn't even had the opportunity to choose a side yet. She has no idea what's going on, aside from the fact that Smoke Monster just killed a bunch of people at the Temple. She doesn't know what Sayid just did, and she doesn't know that this guy who looks like Locke is the Smoke Monster. At the moment, it's about survival and trying to fulfill her Claire mission. Give it an episode.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 4, 2010 2:59 PM

You're right, Tenis: crazier things have happened, and it IS far-fetched. I admit to having some crazy theories in my day. In fact, up until recently, I was convinced Aaron was the bloody kid Smocke saw in the jungle. Now I am unsure. It seems you can't ever be SURE with Lost.

Still pretty far-fetched, though. ^-^

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 4, 2010 3:07 PM

And wow, Kosmic, I haven't thought that damn Hurley bird in ages! I'm betting that goes on the "Unanswered" List. I definitely agree with oscar and others who say it is better to leave some mystery.

I used to have the whole Jungle Patch collection, covered, but now they seem to all be in different places. And the damn pull cord is stuck on one, so it keeps screaming "BAY BEE" in the middle of a conversation. Until you kick it.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 4, 2010 3:14 PM

Re: Hurley's Bird

"At the Paley Festival on 2/27/10, the producers hinted that an answer to the Hurley bird might be forthcoming before the series finale."

(http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hurley_Bird)

Posted by: Scully at March 4, 2010 3:40 PM

Per the Lostpedia: At the Paley Festival on 2/27/10, the producers hinted that an answer to the Hurley bird might be forthcoming before the series finale.

I didn't even know what y'all were talking about. It's been a while since I've seen those episodes.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 4, 2010 3:41 PM

Scully >> O.k. That was damn weird.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at March 4, 2010 3:42 PM

Patty, I thought bloody kid was Aaron as well!! That's where I got the far fetched idea of him still being on the island! ;0)

Posted by: Tenis at March 4, 2010 3:51 PM

I think the kid was a young Jacob....but somebody prolly already said that

Posted by: dammitjanet at March 4, 2010 3:53 PM

Oh snap, another parallel universe bleed on the Lost thread. This sh*t just gets weirder and weirder.

And Patty, I had a similar malfunction but mine wails, "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!"

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 4, 2010 3:57 PM

Well I'll be damned. They WOULD pick something 'minor' like that and make it hugely significant. Oh, LOST, you little scant.

covered, do you have the set that talk to each other in gibberish? I think they are supposed to be Korean, but the damn dolls are made in Guam or something...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 4, 2010 5:27 PM

I think that kid is Aaron too. I think Aaron will be taking over Jacob's job.

DarthCorleone great minds, my friend. Great. Minds.

Posted by: Scully at March 4, 2010 5:47 PM

Pfft, last week when I said the kid was Aaron, everyone stomped the idea. I was cool before it was cool to be cool.

(puts on skinny jeans and t-shirt for band no one has heard of, pouts to hipster music)

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 4, 2010 7:07 PM

I've been preaching to everyone I know that the kid is Aaron. I believe I introduced my Aaron and Ji Yeon are going to take over for Jacob and Esau theory after that episode.

Don't worry Patty, I'm with you!

Posted by: Scully at March 4, 2010 7:34 PM

I thought for sure that the "only thing I ever wanted died in my arms" that Sayid was referring to was Shannon. Shannon who was killed when chasing Walt (who was actually Jacob OR smoke monster. I think it was Jacob.)
Also, a hand cranked electricution good and evil meter-LAME.
Really, the way Sayid acted in both timelimes seems pretty justified to me. He killed the people who would kill him. Both bad John and Jacob have killed people. Jacob seems to be the one who started this whole EVERYTHING in motion, perhaps we don't yet know his motivation but, FOR SURE, he has all this blood on his hands.
For example Claire, she went crazy because she has been trapped on an island for the last three years. She believes the "others" stole her baby, largely, because THEY TRIED TO. They abducted her and performed experiments on her. Whatever was wrong with the French lady's husband aside (we don't know that wasn't Jacob anyway)Claire's been through enough shit to drive anyone over the edge. It just happens to work to bad Locke's advantage.

Posted by: Anon at March 4, 2010 8:12 PM

I think what happened to Claire is EvilLocke's fault. Since she was sitting in the cabin with EvilChristian I assume that EvilChristian talked her into breaking the ash line around the cabin, thus allowing EvilDude to enter. Therefore, I assume that EvilDude made her crazy by brainwashing her (telling her that the people at the Temple had her BAY BEE).

Posted by: Scully at March 5, 2010 8:12 AM





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