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Port in a Storm

By Daniel Carlson | Posted Under Lost Recaps | Comments (148)

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“Ab Aeterno” is one of the better episodes of this season of “Lost” for several reasons, chief among them that this show genuinely enjoys getting caught up in its own complicated backstory. At times, yes, the episode felt like a bit of an exposition dump, but it was the first episode in a long while to stay almost completely in one timeline, and it also filled in some interesting gaps in the history of the island and some major characters. But it was also notable for the way it played into the show’s love of moral ambiguity. If Verbal Kint’s hypothesis was that the Devil’s greatest trick was convincing the world he didn’t exist, then the “Lost” version is that the Devil’s greatest trick was convincing the world that he’s actually God. “Lost” isn’t afraid to call good and evil for what they are, but it’s also not prone to having every single character ally themselves with one of those extremes. Bad guys never think they’re bad, just self-interested; good guys never think they’re good, just oppressed. This week’s episode was a great way to drive that home.

There is no action set in the non-crash world in “Ab Aeterno” (literally “from eternity”; meaning “since the beginning of time” or “for a very long time”); everything happens in the crash timeline, whether on the island in the present or past or in a few other locations. The open actually deals with a brief flashback of Ilana’s time in that Russian hospital where she was badly injured and where Jacob visited her. The scene is a mix of old footage from last season’s “The Incident” and new stuff as Jacob tells her about the candidates. A cut reveals that she’s telling this to everybody now gathered around the fire on the beach: Jack, Hurley, Frank, Sun, Ben, and Richard. She was supposed to ask “Ricardus” what to do when she got to the island, but Richard tells her he has no idea what to do. He gets in Jack’s face and tells them they’re all dead already, and that the island is hell, before grabbing a torch and walking into the jungle. (In addition to setting up the episode, this is a cute way for the showrunners to have some fun with one of the earliest fan theories.)

Jack also notices Hurley talking to no one down by the shore, and he believes it to be Jacob, but Hurley tells Jack that it’s someone else and of a private matter. The rest is just banter between Ben and Frank about how Richard doesn’t age, which leads us to:

The Flashback
Richard is riding on horseback across the Canary Islands in 1867. He arrives at his home to find his wife, Isabella (Mirelly Taylor), still sick and coughing blood. These and several subsequent scenes are performed in Spanish with subtitles, which enhances their atmosphere and reality. Richard pledges to save her, and they have some genuinely sad and sweet moments as he tells her he doesn’t know what to do without her. He sets off again through the rainy night to find the doctor, arriving at the man’s estate in the middle of the night to beg for assistance. The guy is a bit of a douche and says he can sell Richard the medicine depending on how much he can pay. Richard hands over all his coins and then the cross necklace that Isabella gave him before he left. Unmoved by this gesture, the doctor tosses aside the necklace as “worthless,” which sends Richard into a fury. He attacks the man and angrily asks for help, but unfortunately, he winds up dropping his neck against the table edge (or that’s what it looked like), and the guy falls to the ground, dead.

Richard, in a panic, takes the medicine back to Isabella but arrives too late: She’s died in the night. He weeps for his lost love as lawmen arrive (really, really quickly, considering the length of the journey and the whole lack of modern communication) and cart him off to jail. He’s visited there by Father Suarez (Juan Carlos Cantu), who turns out to be the kind of aloof intermediary you really don’t want in a guy who’s gonna read you the Last Rites. Suarez is impressed by Richard’s English-language Bible, and Richard said he’s been learning the language out of a hope he and his wife would one day see the New World. The priest opens the Bible to see Luke chapter 4 verse 37, a chapter that deals with Jesus’ temptation by Satan in the desert and a verse that talks of Jesus’ notoriety spreading. Richard confesses his sin of accidental murder and begs for absolution, but Suarez says no can do: Murder’s too big to just forgive, and Richard doesn’t have time to do any penance because he’s going to be killed in a day. Richard’s having a bad week.

The next day, Richard’s blindfolded and led from his cell only to be stopped in the outer hall by a scruffy, likely drunk Brit named Jonas Whitfield (Steven Elder), who checks out Richard’s teeth and wants to know if he can speak English. Though his blindfold is removed, Richard’s too dumbstruck to speak for a moment, and he’s being drug back to his cell when he coughs up a few words and proves he knows the language. Whitfield offers him passage to the New World, which Richard accepts, and with that the Brit hands money to the priest and officially purchases Richard on behalf of Magnus Hanso. Next thing you know, Richard’s on the ship he obliquely revealed in “Dr. Linus” was his former home: the Black Rock, making its way through stormy seas as Richard and other Spanish-speaking workers are chained below. One of the other men looks between the boards and spots an island, then sees what he claims is the Devil but is actually the very eerily lit statue of Tawaret. The ship has swung around the Americas and been sucked into the island’s vortex of fate-testing adventure, and the storm builds to a fever pitch as the ship tips up and wrecks on the statue.

The next morning, Richard and the other slaves awake to find themselves mercifully alive (well, some anyway), though still chained to the walls of the ship. They shout for help from the figures moving about topside, which is when Whitfield comes below deck and starts getting really wacky, taking out his sword and running through one man after another. A panicked Richard asks why he’s doing this, and Whitfield says that they’re wrecked in the jungle with no water, no supplies, and just a handful of officers left; if he doesn’t kill Richard, it’d just be a matter of time before Richard came after him. He rears back for the killing blow but is stopped by the familiar whine and rattle of the approaching smoke monster. He looks up through a grate and calls for explanation as a line of blood falls from above, at which point the monster bursts down through the ceiling and makes off with him, killing him in a probably very uncomfortable way. The monster swoops below and stops in front of Richard, checking him out, but Richard shuts his eyes and fervently prays, after which the monster bails.

Thus begins Richard’s lengthy bout of solitary confinement on the ship. What happens to him there is fascinating to watch knowing what we do by know about the shape-shifting abilities of the Man in Black. At one point, Richard awakens to see Isabella before him, who tells him that they are indeed in hell together but that they need to escape before the monster returns. As the noise picks up from outside, he tells her to flee, and she does, disappearing topside only to scream in agony at her “death.” The fun of these scenes, though, is to watch the way the Man in Black appears in multiple forms before Richard to mess with his head and get him to a place where he’s ready to do the Enemy’s bidding. Later on, the original Man in Black himself appears — the one we haven’t seen since last year’s finale — and offers to free Richard if Richard promises to help him. He tells Richard that he can see his wife again and escape from hell if Richard heads into the jungle to kill the Devil. Richard agrees, and the Man in Black takes the keyring he “found” (read: took off a corpse of a man he’d slaughtered) and sets Richard free, remarking, “It’s good to see you out of those chains.” This is the way Fake Locke greeted Richard in the first episode of this season, so it’s a nice callback/fill-in, depending on how you look at the timeline.

Later, they eat as the Man in Black gives Richard a knife — the one Dogen will give Sayid in 140 years — and tells him to head due west to the statue, “where you’ll find the Devil.” Richard wants to know how he’s supposed to kill a smoke being, but the Man in Black admits to being the smoke monster, then uses some kind of weird logic to convince Richard that his wife is still okay but just taken by the Devil. Richard hikes to the statue and sees only the foot, with wreckage strewn about in the shallow water, proving that it was the wreck of the Black Rock that destroyed the Tawaret monument. He looks around but is ambushed and beaten up by a man that turns out to be Jacob, who’s a whole lot pissier and antagonistic than the one who’ll be killed in a century and a half. When a battered Richard reveals the point of his mission, Jacob asks if he met a man in the jungle dressed in black. Richard’s belief that he’s dead and in hell gets him brutally dunked four times in the water by Jacob, who gets Richard to admit that he wants to live.

Then comes Jacob’s explanation of what’s up with the Man in Black, and it’s both a new take on the situation and somehow just a rehash of everything we already had learned in bits and pieces. Jacob says that the Man in Black is pure evil, chaos, hell, all of it, and compares the Man in Black to wine in a bottle and the island to the cork that prevents its escape and spread. He holds up a bottle of wine to make his point visually. Jacob brings people to the island to fend for themselves, learn right from wrong, and fight the Man in Black by keeping him in check. Richard calls shenanigans and says that Jacob should at least intervene a bit, but Jacob balks and says, “It’s all meaningless if I have to force them to do anything.” Richard counters that the Man in Black gets involved in their lives, so Jacob should do the same. Jacob then offers him that very job, to act as a mediator between Jacob and the people he recruits for the island. He offers Richard anything he wants, but says he can’t bring Isabella back or provide absolution for Richard’s crime. Richard almost casually utters that he wants to live forever, a statement born of the fear of facing eternal damnation for his crime, but Jacob grins and places a hand on his shoulder, saying, “Now that I can do.” Poor Richard. He just wanted to do his penance, but he wound up with so much more to do.

Richard returns to the Man in Black with a gift from Jacob: a white rock. (Probably the same one they keep passing back and forth, and that Fake Locke removes from Jacob’s scale and tosses into the ocean in “The Substitute.”) The Man in Black isn’t upset so much as disappointed, and he reiterates that his offer to help Richard escape and see his wife again still stands and always will. This is such a great way to play evil: Casual, accepting, and always ready to bargain. As one last jab, the Man in Black slips Isabella’s cross necklace into Richard’s hand before vanishing. Unable to deal with it, Richard, buries the necklace next to a nearby tree and tells his love goodbye. And that takes us back to:

The Present
Richard emerges from the jungle at the same spot we just saw him standing, only 140 years later, and he heads to the tree and digs up the necklace. “I’ve changed my mind,” he says, then begins shouting to the unseen Enemy that he’s willing to take him up on his offer. Richard’s work for Jacob was predicated in part on the belief that Jacob would always be around and was in many ways unkillable, but Jacob’s true nature seems to be a kind of force that can become physical but transfer (I am wildly speculating) into/onto another candidate. Richard’s understandably feeling betrayed by Jacob and like he’s worked his whole ageless life for a lie, but he just doesn’t have all the facts. That’s a great way to play the story. Anyway: Richard turns, expecting to see Fake Locke there ready to welcome him home, but instead it’s Hurley emerging from the jungle. “Your wife sent me,” Hurley says, as the memory of the ghost he was talking to earlier clicks into place. He stuns Richard with this but proves he’s telling the truth by talking to him about the necklace. Isabella appears next to Richard, unseen by him but seen by Hurley, and in a Ghost-like mirror of the opening sequence, Richard closes his eyes as Hurley relays Isabella’s final message of love, comfort, and devotion. It’s a legitimately sweet scene, and Nestor Carbonell uses pure body language to convey the fatigue and sorrow that have haunted him for decades as he deals with the memory of his dead wife. She puts his penance to rest, telling him, “You’ve suffered enough.” She leaves him again, more alone but less defeated. He slips on the necklace and thanks Hurley (who looks away and acts stoic), but Hurley’s got one more piece of instruction from Isabella. He says that she wants Richard to stop the Man in Black. Otherwise, “we all go to hell.” From a distance, Fake Locke watches with quiet concern.

There’s one more tag, and it’s set back in the past: The Man in Black is toying with the white rock as Jacob saunters up and sits beside him. He admits to sending Richard to kill Jacob because he wants to leave. “Just let me leave, Jacob,” he says wearily. Jacob says that he won’t allow that as long as he’s alive, adding that if he’s killed, someone will just step in and replace him. The Man in Black says he’ll just kill that person, too. (He’s devoted, that’s for sure.) Jacob passes him the wine bottle and says it’s to help pass the time, and with that he leaves, saying, “See you around.” The Man in Black, never one to let a dramatic gesture go to waste, mutters, “Sooner than you think,” then smashes the bottle on the rock at his feet.

And that’s that. Overall, just a really solid episode. I liked the parallel of Jesus being tempted in the desert with Richard being tempted in the jungle, and I also like the idea of what might be the core of the show: Basically, what if the ultimate evil were trapped on an island, and forced to play little mind games to earn his escape, and it was up to humans to outsmart him? That’s not a bad little generator for a show’s mythology, though I do wonder how much it’ll be able to tie into larger or other issues. (DHARMA, Walt, etc.) The concept of the island as either a gateway to or checkpoint for hell or evil is a little reminiscent of the Hellmouth from “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” but not in a bad way. I don’t think Hurley’s message from Isabella about going to hell was a literal one, more like they’ll be in a world of unchecked evil. It was also interesting to see how the Black Rock crashed and to realize that it wasn’t the ship we saw Jacob and the Man in Black discussing in last season’s finale; Jacob himself admitted to Richard that there had been “many” people come to the island before the Black Rock, so who knows how many ships of innocent people those figures pitted against each other. I also liked the moralizing between Jacob and the Man in Black, whose exact roles in the world still seem a little unclear but who allow the characters they interact with to make interesting choices. “Lost” is big on the tension between fate and free will, and it was thrilling to have some of the previously conceived notions of fate pushed aside just a bit for Jacob’s claim to want his potential candidates to work everything out on their own. How this will affect Jack and the rest, only time will tell.

Daniel Carlson is the managing editor of Pajiba and a member of the Houston Film Critics Society, as well as a TV blogger for the Houston Press. You can visit his blog, Slowly Going Bald.







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Comments

Nestor Carbonell gave a gorgeous performance - I wish he had been given more to do over the past five seasons. It seems like almost everyone who has been given a story has had some version of a heartbreaking life. Is the island a second chance? Did Jacob effectively save people from death - was anyone who was brought to the island someone who would have died prematurely anyway?

So, the supernatural island keeps away evil from the rest of the world. And Jacob, truly the protector of the island, keeps the island safe so the island can contain MIB. The Losties haven't yet realized the far-reaching consequences of their actions in trying to un-do the crash - and somehow before the end of the show, they'll understand. I believe Desmond will be involved in waking them or making them understand, perhaps specifically making Jack understand.
Regardless, everyone must make his own choice - neither Jacob nor MIB can decide whether a person follows good or evil. And each has been portrayed ambiguously, unclearly, leaving people to choose with their hearts and souls, their true selves. So there's a little bit of destiny vs. free will going on, and I think the point is that we can have both. Even if Jacob gave these people a destiny, they still have choices to make, and their choices affect more than just themselves. An allegory of life.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 11:44 AM

Also, I had a hard time with the idea that the ship knocked down the statue. I know we're just supposed to accept it, but wood boat against stone statue? Stone wins.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 11:48 AM

When Jacob told Richard that whatever he'd done before coming to the island didn't matter, I immediately flashed back to the first season when Jack told Kate the very same thing.

Do we know for sure that Isabella told Hurley to tell Richard to stop MIB? Or could it have been something Hurley, or maybe Jacob, added at the end, to motivate Richard? Hurley seems to innocent to have made it up, so I'm probably just thinking too hard.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 11:56 AM

I buy the ship knocking down the statue - the statue was tall and probably top-heavy, and the ship was heavy wood propelled by a monstrous wave. Plus, it's LOST. Heh.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 11:58 AM

I didn't think Richard was so much angry with the dcotor, just desperate.

It was also interesting to see how the Black Rock crashed and to realize that it wasn’t the ship we saw Jacob and the Man in Black discussing in last season’s finale
I ghuess you are assumign this based on the previous episode showing a ship in broad dayligth on calm seas. I kind of assumed that meant they were seeing it far off, and that Jacob handed caused a storm yet.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 11:59 AM

Excellent episode, excellent recap.

Posted by: Alli at March 24, 2010 12:01 PM

I love the handing over of the rocks between Jacob and the MIB. The tipping of the scales idea, of them each "winning" the people who come to the island is really cool. And I love how long it's been with the series, since Jack found the black and white rocks in the cave.

I think it's less about the island containing evil itself and more that if it wasn't contained, the evil on earth would be more palpable. It's already there, but maybe people would be easier manipulated and prone to cruelty if the MIN were set free.

Nestor Carbonell had such a great performance. I'm so glad he got a chance to showcase his talent. Him and my boy Titus Welliver. I love Smoke Locke, but it made me miss Welliver's portrayal of the Man in Black. He's so quietly menacing.

Posted by: Julie at March 24, 2010 12:10 PM

Quick observation that may not be that important, but did Jacob pull an Ellis-Island on Richard? That is, it was obvious that he was of Spanish decent, name pronounced Ricardo, but Ilana and others always refer to him as Ricardus. Was Ricardo not ancient enough? The three variations of his name don't seem necessary, unless there's some unknown clarification coming down the pipeline.

Also, if that wave were really large enough to throw that ship into the top of the statue, I'm pretty sure it also would have caused some surrious damage to the island.

Posted by: tripM at March 24, 2010 12:11 PM

Nestor Carbonell is Atlas. He picked up the show and carried it's heavy weight for 45 minutes (after commercials). Quite a feat. If he doesn't receive all the necessary accolades after his performance (complete with job offers) then the black smoke is already free and the world is already suffering from horrible injustice.

Posted by: superasente at March 24, 2010 12:11 PM

The Richard Story!! Richard out-acted every other performance in the history of LOST, & you know this.

Some minor gripes: Not digging the explanation for the smashed statue; Richard's English got way better in like 2 days; Jacob's & MIB's diction is way to contemporary; And they got the timeline wrong, putting Richard on the Black Rock in 1867, whereas previously it was noted that the Black Rock set sail in 1845, & Hanso's ledger was found in 1852.

Posted by: the new transported man at March 24, 2010 12:12 PM

Also, the Richard/Ricardus/Ricardo thing, plus that island definitely should have been TRASHED after The Perfect Storm. I'd always figured that one day, in the 19th century, the island moved while the Black Rock was sailing by, & *poof* the Black Rock is in a jungle.

Posted by: the new transported man at March 24, 2010 12:18 PM

We don't know that Isabella actually said they would all go to hell if they don't kill the MIB. That came from Hurley's point of view only. I found that to be a little suspicious too.

Couldn't the Black Rock have originally set sail in 1845, but not crash on the island until one of its trips in 1867? And I also didn't interpret the events to mean that the ship in the last season finale wasn't the same one as the Black Rock. FWIW.

I'm loving the Biblical parallels. I also see Richard in the Jesus role, for a couple of reasons. The first was being chosen as an intermediary between Jacob and the people he brings to the island. The second was the notable difference in Jacob's temperament when he first encountered Richard, and the "current" island time line. Jacob was much more intense, and dare I say vengeful, in an Old Testament kind of way, and I think his new behavior can be more compared to a New Testament type temperament. I'm thinking Richard is the catalyst to have prompted this change. And Richard is definitely spending some time in the desert right now. I don't know how this will play out by the time this story is finished, I'm just a fan of theological discussions and to see it played out here is a lot of fun.

This was such an excellent episode. At the risk of sounding cliched, I was totally riveted and glued to the edge of my seat. This was a huge payoff for years of Lost loyalty.

Posted by: katy at March 24, 2010 12:23 PM

you can assume the ship we saw earlier in daylight is a ship other than the black rock. The one prisoner below saw the island on appraoch during the storm, so surely they weren't parked off the coast in calm seas for any amount of time.

I am still convinced there will be some kind of major reveal in which the true nature (read good or evil) of Jacob and MIB will change drastically. Based on what I've seen I just can't label either one certainly as good or evil. though most people here seem to be fairly sure jacob is repping the good.

Posted by: dills at March 24, 2010 12:25 PM

I find the concept of the island as a sort of Pandora's Box to be very interesting. It is as if the box contains the greater part of evil but some still manages to leak out at the seams and corners. The allegory warning against selfishness is also very powerful. Look at Sawyer, specifically. In his grief and selfishness to get off the island he literally sold his soul to the Devil. Or at the very least is big-time playing with fire and is likely going to lose that gamble. I hope I'm wrong. Claire apparently did the same thing, only her grief was the loss of Aaron.

The rest of the Losties may have really screwed up the course of fate by setting off Fat Boy. Time will only tell if Jacob's replacement will be able to set things right again.

Much as I hate to admit this, I'm also kind of interested in seeing what happens with Kate. She's not exactly on the MIB's side, but she seems to have snuck in to try to save Claire, much like Orpheus tried to save his wife. I guess we will also see if Kate brings Claire back to the light or if she checks back over her shoulder too soon. Really though, I hope Kate is expendable. Man, she annoys the shit out of me. However, I do think she will have a very important role in the end, even though she's not a candidate. Maybe she's simply a facilitator or catalyst.


Posted by: stardust at March 24, 2010 12:27 PM

this episode made me furious.
talk about crap filler.
the purgatory theory has been debunked NUMEROUS times by the writers, so why are they wasting our time?
fonzi has jumped the shark.
i'm ready for some actual answers.
i'll finish out the series, but last night nearly made me throw up my hands completely.

Posted by: gem at March 24, 2010 12:32 PM

Remember how Juliet and the Others speak Latin? Maybe "Richardus" is just their Latin code name for Ricardo. And Richard would be the name that he gave to the WWII/Widmore band of Others?

Posted by: Megan at March 24, 2010 12:33 PM

Also, count me in as a Nestor Carbonell fangirl for life. His magnificent performance made that one of the best pieces of television I have seen in a long time. The scenes between Ricardo and Isabella, especially the Ghost scene, just grabbed my chest and squeezed. Nestor really needs some recognition for that performance. Dear godtopus, does he ever.

Posted by: stardust at March 24, 2010 12:35 PM

Musing more on the biblical comparisons, and reading Cindy's thoughts on free will and predetermination, the Bible begins with the story of when man chose free will over predetermination, when Eve chose to eat the apple. I wonder if the Lost Adam and Eve will be used in this way too, whether at some point in the continued telling of the history of the island or in how future plays out for the remaining candidates. Or a combination of both considering the time/space travel and all.

Posted by: katy at March 24, 2010 12:36 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but haven't all of the other dead people that the ol' smokey appeared as come to the island in some way? Christian, Locke's dad, Echo's brother. If so, how did he appear as Richard's wife?

Posted by: Clint P. at March 24, 2010 12:40 PM

Why exactly are people suspicious of Hurley's message? Sure, we didn't hear it from Isabella's mouth to Hurley's ear, but he was speaking to someone on the beach in Spanish.

I love the Biblical parallels, and there are so many. Nice catch, katy, on comparing OT God to NT God.

Dills, last night was the first time I ever had one inkling of *maybe* Jacob is actually the bad guy, but it left me by the end of the episode. I know these guys love their red herring, but I am completely Team Jacob FTW on this one.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 12:44 PM

Yeah, I agree that followers of Jacob, the Others, call Richard Ricardus because Latin is their shared language. He's Richard in modern times because, well, he's in modern times. And I am choosing to believe that being Ricardo may have been just too painful for him - reminding him of his past and his incredible loss.

I thought it was an amazing episode. Nestor acted his ass off, and I love any episode that delves this deeply into the mysteries and past of the island.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 12:45 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but haven't all of the other dead people that the ol' smokey appeared as come to the island in some way? Christian, Locke's dad, Echo's brother. If so, how did he appear as Richard's wife?

Yeah, that kinda throws a wrench into the Theory Gears. It seemed that Smokey needs an actual body to emulate, i.e. Yemi, Christian, & presumably Alex. But maybe he just needs to read your mind, i.e. Ben, Eko, & Richard. Some people think that Smokey was also Dave, Hurley's imaginary friend, who tried to lure Hurley off of a cliff; I contend that Dave was just a Hurley hallucination, & part of a shitty episode.

Posted by: the new transported man at March 24, 2010 12:46 PM

Clint, that is a really excellent and compelling point, but I don't know how much water it holds. Are we considering Kate's horse hallucination to be MIB? Smokey reads people (thus the clicky paparazzi experience), so maybe he just pulls out those memories. I could be convinced of your point, but not yet.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 12:47 PM

Do we know for sure that Isabella told Hurley to tell Richard to stop MIB? Or could it have been something Hurley, or maybe Jacob, added at the end, to motivate Richard? Hurley seems to innocent to have made it up, so I'm probably just thinking too hard.

Nice observation... I actually noticed Hurley's discomfort with telling Richard this, but didn't really think too much as to why.

Just a couple of thoughts I have, not terribly articulate today: I think Jacob is just as trapped as Smockey, and just as likely to do anything to change that; see also his manipulating people into "choosing" what he wants them to, IMO.

Also, I'm still not on board with Jacob=Good/MiB=Evil. I think Jacob has his own, likely selfish reason(s) for wanting to keep MiB on the Island. I found it EXTREMELY interesting that MiB said EXACTLY the same thing to Batmanuel when he sent him to kill Jacob that Dogen said to Sayid when he sent him to kill MiBLocke. ALSO, MiB said at some point that Jacob had stolen his body (IIRC) and I want to know what that means... body swap? Is the physical MiB a body being used by Smokey, someone who was dead who wound up on the Island at the same time as Jacob? What was that about? Also, maybe they need to keep each other there? Like it's not just that Jacob has to keep MiB there, but the reverse is true as well? I don't know. I think maybe it's just wishful thinking, because I don't want it to go this "Jacob is good and protecting the world and MiB is evil and will destroy the world" route that it appears to be doing. I would find that disappointing.

I've also just been sitting here thinking about yin and yang; the dark foreboding black side with the core of "good," or white, and the "opposite" side, dressed in white but with a black center. I'm thinking about the man dressed in black, with his small white stone. And I'm thinking about how after centuries, or perhaps even longer, he seems to give up that white stone, throwing it into the ocean.

Of course, I was also up until 1 a.m. "writing a paper" (by which I mean, supposed to be writing a paper but getting distracted by the interwebz). Because I am a stupidface.

Anyway, EXCELLENT episode that made me very happy. In spite of the fact that I was crying for a bunch of it. Oh, Nestor. I think Kolby's got a boatload of competition now.

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 12:47 PM

i think jacob was pissier and more antagonistic because his replacement wasn't yet on the island 140 years ago. by the time ben kills him, his replacement is already lined up, that person just doesn't know it yet.

Posted by: stopthemadness at March 24, 2010 12:48 PM

I figured Ricardo's experience with Isabella in the hold of the Black Rock was hallucination caused by dehydration and exhaustion. Everything she was saying to him he had already been thinking in his head. I think the whole Heaven & Hell thing, with Jacob being the devil, was merely MIB taking advantage of the fears of a Catholic who's committed a mortal sin.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 12:48 PM

Oh, transported, I forgot about Dave. I personally think that was Smokey, but still, Dave was never there. But hmm, how does that affect imaginary Dave off-Island? Oi, Season 3...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 12:49 PM

i think jacob was pissier and more antagonistic because his replacement wasn't yet on the island 140 years ago. by the time ben kills him, his replacement is already lined up, that person just doesn't know it yet

YES, with a side of INDEED, please.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 12:50 PM

Also, my latest guess at Adam and Eve is Richard and Isabella.

Jacob specifically referred to the island as a cork, keeping the bottle of evil from seeping out into the world. From what I've seen of MIB, he's rocking the evil. As for Jacob, I do believe he represents good, though in the same way I don't believe "God" (if there is one) is purely good - neither does Jacob have to be. But Jacob is trying to find and exploit the good in mankind, while MIB does the opposite.

As for Sawyer, I don't see him as selling his soul to the devil to get off the island. He's using MIB against himself. I think Sawyer wants MIB to think he's committed to his side, but in actuality (and as Sawyer said himself), he's manipulating (con man) MIB into position to be distracted while Sawyer attempts to get off island. Sawyer isn't just blindly following MIB, at least as far as I can tell.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 12:51 PM

I'm going to say here and now that I definitely think Jack is Jacob's replacement.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 12:51 PM

Me too, Cindy. And they went out of their way to schedule the final episode on may 23rd. Jesus. Or Jack. Whatever.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 12:57 PM

Also, maybe they need to keep each other there? Like it's not just that Jacob has to keep MiB there, but the reverse is true as well?

I like this idea a lot.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 12:57 PM

And did everyone else despise that priest Richardo met in jail? I swear, he should get a job at Gaga's "Prison for Bitches"...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 12:58 PM

It's a Lost miracle, Kolbs: we agree!

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 12:59 PM

This was such a beautiful episode. It was nice getting so caught up in the narrative again, like I used to in earlier seasons but haven't so far this season.

I was reading on another site that someone there was griping about the extensive use of Spanish and subtitles and that that, somehow, caused the show to unnecessarily run long. My comments to that piece of drivel are: A) The subtitled sequences were sublime. B) Did the show actually run long? If so, I didn't notice. C) Why on earth would anyone complain about the show running longer? I can't get enough of this show.

Posted by: elsie at March 24, 2010 12:59 PM

Also, maybe they need to keep each other there? Like it's not just that Jacob has to keep MiB there, but the reverse is true as well?

Nah, Jacob's always been able to leave the island. I think he stays there by choice.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 1:00 PM

If Jacob already knew who his replacement was why are there still candidates? Wouldn't there only have been one name remaining that wasn't crossed out? I don't buy this. There are still some issues the remaining candidates need to iron out to become the final replacement, and Jacob seems to still be actively working to guide them through this.

I wonder if Sayid's name has been crossed out yet, or if his redemption is still seen as a possibility.

I think the reason I don't entirely trust the source of Hurley's hell comment is the way he said it. We've seen him convey information in that shifty way before, but usually breaks down pretty quickly afterward and says that he was lying. Love him as I do, he's a terrible bluffer.

Posted by: katy at March 24, 2010 1:00 PM

Man, I never thought the day would come when Batmanuel would wring emotional tears from my eyes, but I cried like a baby during Richard's scenes with his wife. UGH. I love/hate that.

Posted by: livience at March 24, 2010 1:01 PM

Unless, wait for it, Jacob and MIB are the same person. DUN DUN DUN. I just thought of that and immediately I'm already disagreeing with myself. Would they really go there?

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 1:01 PM

Jacob's always been able to leave the island. I think he stays there by choice.

While you make a good point about Jacob being able to leave (while he still had his body), that doesn't mean he should be leaving. In the end, perhaps it was just as important that Jacob stay. Maybe part of what makes Jacob imperfect or not necessarily good is that he has left the island and affected peoples' lives when he really shouldn't have? Or that he's taking it upon himself to affect their lives...

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 1:05 PM

Smokey reads people (thus the clicky paparazzi experience), so maybe he just pulls out those memories. I could be convinced of your point, but not yet.
Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 12:47 PM

I don't recall Smokey "reading" Kate, & I'd forgotten about some of those older events, but yeah, I'd say that qualifies as Smokey reading somebody's dome-piece. Just one of those things that LOST never got back around to splainin'.

Posted by: the new transported man at March 24, 2010 1:06 PM

Smokey "read" Kate when she was hiding in the jungle from it, in the rainstorm, remember? She counted to five, like Jack told her he did when he botched that surgery, to control her fear. Her eyes were closed, though, so she didn't see it. Am I remembering correctly?

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 1:10 PM

We've seen him convey information in that shifty way before, but usually breaks down pretty quickly afterward and says that he was lying. Love him as I do, he's a terrible bluffer.

Yes, katy. He totally had that look, but Richard doesn't know him well enough to know that. To be fair, Richard's had a rather... emotional day, and even if he knew Hurley better, he mightn't have picked that up.

Kolby, you bring up an excellent point which makes me ask, why? Why is Jacob able to leave the Island, but MiB isn't? I feel like this is re-treading old ground, but ... there's always bodies lying around. Ben killed a whole slew of Dharma people. How is it that MiB is kept on the Island while Jacob's off gallivanting about elsewhere? And if he's supposed to be the "protector" of the Island, then why does he deem it okay to leave, and to presumably leave the Island unprotected, while he looks for a replacement for himself?

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 1:13 PM

Cindy, is it possible that Jacob affects people's lives in order to get them to the island, but once they get there they have to figure it out on their own? I mean, physically "bringing" ships and planes to the island seems like interfering in others' lives in a HUGE way, does it not? I think, when he told Richard that he doesn't interfere, that he meant that he doesn't interfere once a candidate is already on the island.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 1:13 PM

I'm not going to lie, I had been really disappointed with the season up until now. Every episode felt like mindless filler and I was finding it hard to stay interested.

But holy crap! This episode changed everything. Nestor Carbonell is such a beautiful actor and his performance was definitely the highlight of the episode.

I also loved all the mind games at work, Jacob and Man in Black are two of the best adversaries in television history I've ever seen. The tension between them is gripping but also wrought with dry humor.

Love this show!!!

Posted by: citizen_cris at March 24, 2010 1:16 PM

Smokey "read" Kate when she was hiding in the jungle from it, in the rainstorm, remember? She counted to five, like Jack told her he did when he botched that surgery, to control her fear. Her eyes were closed, though, so she didn't see it. Am I remembering correctly?

Word, if that happened before she saw her horse, then that's that. WHAT HAPPENED, HAPPENED

Posted by: the new transported man at March 24, 2010 1:18 PM

I love how I account for at least a third of the comments, I am such a nerd. And I LOVE LOVE LOEV these conversations.

AvB - I think Jacob is able to leave the island because there are many more "rules" binding MIB to the island than just Jacob's presence. Obviously, I think Jacob is/was the island's main protector, but even now that he's dead, MIB can't leave until certain other "obstacles" are cleared.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 1:19 PM

I'm sick and kind of drugged this week, so all I can manage is to offer a
new allusion -

MIB as Mephistopheles in Marlowe's Faust. "Why this is Hell, nor are
we out of it." Discuss.


I sincerely hope that Richard is allowed to die and is freed from his
mortal coil. Nestor Carbonell was FANTASTIC!

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at March 24, 2010 1:19 PM

Someone mentioned before that if the show ends with Jack and "Locke" sitting on the beach next to each other going through the same scene that Jacob and MIB did last season, they're going to be pissed. If Jack is Jacob's replacement, which seems pretty plausible given the hints (May 23rd for the finale? A Sunday?!), that is exactly the scene that could transpire.

Although I also love the idea that none of the remaining candidates are worthy, and the show ends that way. j/k ; )

Who ever ends up being the replacement, I think MIB is going to be trapped in John Locke's body for a long time to come.

Posted by: katy at March 24, 2010 1:21 PM

...is it possible that Jacob affects people's lives in order to get them to the island, but once they get there they have to figure it out on their own?

Absolutely. That's what seems to be happening. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't assume Jacob is all good or pure goodness. He is sort of influencing things/people for his own ends, no matter how good he deems the ends to be.
But - then again - is he choosing people who would have otherwise died, in the normal sense of the word?

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 1:30 PM

What happened to MIB when Jacob was off Island? All those times he was visiting folks in the real world, what affect did that have on Smokey's imprisonment?

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 1:36 PM

Patty, I think for the longest time, MIB was trapped in the cabin by the ash circle. When he was able to get out, he was also able to take over Locke's body. I think?

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 1:38 PM

Here's something else I question: MiB says to Ricardo that Jacob "stole his body". Given that their styles of clothing are the same in the flashybacky bits, they are clearly from the same time period. This means that this (delicious) physical incarnation of MiB is not original. So who else was on the Island with them for Smokey to inhabit? And then, again, what-or who-exactly is Smokey?

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 1:40 PM

My first comment about this episode is that it made all of the other episodes of this last season feel like filler. I can't shake the feeling that the producers were sheepishly dragging their feet for a while before they got serious.

I may just pretend that this is the actual beginning of the season.

How magnificent a final season would it have been if this had been the first episode and eighteen hours of glory stretched out before us. Oh well, there are, what?, seven episodes left? So -- 3.5 possible hours of material on this level interspersed with 3.5 hours of bizarro world and clunky character juxtapositionings -- oh look, Charles Whitmore is happily married to Eloise Hawking, they live in the burbs, and Mikhail is their wacky mail man!

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 1:47 PM

oh look, Charles Whitmore is happily married to Eloise Hawking, they live in the burbs, and Mikhail is their wacky mail man!

OHGOD how I hope this is how the series ends.

*fingers crossed*

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 1:49 PM

Jesus, AvB, your last comment just brought me back to my joke that perhaps Jacob and MIB are, or once were, the same person. Jacob "stole" his body, Jacob is the one who gets to leave the island, one is light, the other dark, they have opposite goals and motivations. What the frick? No way.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 1:53 PM

Hm. Actually, that kind of makes sense with my yin/yang thoughts, too.

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 1:57 PM

That's an interesting thought - two halves of the same being? Not sure. Could be. I kind of think they're brothers (though not the literal interpretation of Jacob and Esau). But at some point one of them called the other "My friend" so who knows?

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 1:59 PM

I'm late to the party (I blame Twilight!) But here are some random thoughts:

1) I love how Hurley refused to tell Jack anything. Bastard's way too nosy and Hurley's finally manning up.

2) I love how this show isn't afraid to go into foreign language. Like how Jin and Sun's story was all done in Korean. I really like that.

3) I like that they answered my question about the statue the week after I'd asked it. YES THEY CATER TO ME.

I loved this episode. I'm glad that we stepped away from the alternate timeline, and got back to things we KNOW mattered. Now, about the other timeline: We were talking about this last night, and we sort of speculated that the alternate timeline was either the result of the failure or the victory of the candidates (or A candidate) in their mission to protect the Island. My personal theory is that the final candidate (my guess is Jack) goes back in time and sinks the Island for good, therefore trapping the Man in Black in it forever. I think it's a victory, and the alternate timeline is showing us that.

And I'm still confused as hell as to what side Widmore is on. See, while this is all about good/evil, that doesn't make the Good all that great. It's kind of like the God of the Old Testament: yes he represents salvation, and "good", but he is an angry, vengeful, manipulative being. And that's sort of how Jacob is, no?

Posted by: figgy at March 24, 2010 2:01 PM

I assume that the magnetic dome over the island that shields it from view of the rest of the world is what's keeping the MIB from leaving. He needs a human to carry him through it.

Posted by: elsie at March 24, 2010 2:03 PM

Oh, duh, the electromagnetic field! Like I said, I'm tired and dumb today.

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 2:07 PM

But, wait, has that been there all along? Or did that only come into existence with Jughead and then the whole hatch thing and OW MY BRAIN

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 2:09 PM

Elsie, you beat me to it. I was remembering when they showed Desmond trying to leave the island with the canoe (I think that's waht it was) and he always ended up right back on the beach. the MIB is physically limited to the island as well as whatever other way Jacob is keeping him there.

Also, damn you guys got to this early today, I feel way late to the party. I loved every minute of this episode and Nestor Carbonell's performance was beyond superb.

Posted by: Even Stevens at March 24, 2010 2:10 PM

You people are all awesome.

Fantastic, solid episode, that gave a few answers but left even MORE questions. Nestor Carbonelli was amazing....and the little shot of Smocke at the end made me both giggly/happy and nervous as shit.

Posted by: dammitjanet at March 24, 2010 2:13 PM

Perhaps MIB and Jacob are two sides of the same coin - a coin that was split down the middle by a fundamental falling out eons ago? Or, more correctly, they are two sides of the yin and yang. The yin and the yang would explain why Jacob is not exactly "good", in that he manipulates people for his own gain. A gain that just happens to be more to the side of good. It would also explain why the MIB is definitely on the side of chaos and suffering, yet in some sense he may have the right to be pissed about some of the actions Jacob had taken.

Each of them contains just a tiny spark of the other.

Posted by: stardust at March 24, 2010 2:20 PM

Perhaps MIB and Jacob are two sides of the same coin - a coin that was split down the middle by a fundamental falling out eons ago?

that is almost exactly what i was going to say. i think they are pretty much the same as far as being good or evil and they should be left on the island alone--without the ability to draw anyone else to play their little game. i just can't see that either one of them is clearly good or clearly evil, just selfish and manipulative.

i also go the feeling that they might take turns playing their parts--although MIB is so over it that he just wants to quit playing. i don't know, i'm full of theories. i also thought they could be the same person until i remembered Ben seeing them together--of course they still could be the same person but Smokey was cut out and now has to use dead bodies to appear human.

overall, this was a really good episode. whether you like the answers or not, it certainly delivered a lot of them.

Posted by: pq at March 24, 2010 2:35 PM

YES, loved this episode! YES, loved Richie Ricardo! YES, that man wears eyeliner, don't lie to me. YES, you all are geniuses. But, YES, Jacob's colloquialisms and diction on the beach scene with Richie Ricardo seemed jarringly modern to me as well. Almost Bronx-ian. I found that a queer moment in an otherwise brills episode. Oh, Hurley, make me cry why doncha? (Hurley's still my man for Jacob's job. . .I know, I know. He's a dark horse, but he's my horse).

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 24, 2010 2:49 PM

Yeah, stardust, that's kind of where I was trying to go with my earlier thought, at least to an extent (as I said, I'm having the difficulties today with my stupid tired brain). When Richard gave the white rock to MiB, it kind of clicked into place: MiB is the dark half, who contains the white (or "good", if you want to look at it that way) center, and Jacob is the half that appears light but contains the darkness inside. I tend to think that the half that looks dark and foreboding on the outside, though, actually has that good at the core of him, and vice-versa; in other words, each is not as he appears (still not explaining myself very well). That also makes a very handy explanation for why they can't kill each other.

pq, that's what I was saying about MiB "giving up"," in a sense, when he's in the cave (as Locke) and takes the white rock off the scale and tosses it into the ocean.

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 2:57 PM

Quick observation that may not be that important, but did Jacob pull an Ellis-Island on Richard? That is, it was obvious that he was of Spanish decent, name pronounced Ricardo, but Ilana and others always refer to him as Ricardus. Was Ricardo not ancient enough?" tripM

I suspect that was a deliberate red herring driveby on the part of the producers. Most likely, they wanted the audience to assume he was Roman, as they equate misdirection with mystery.

I know that sounds harsh, but I am a fan of the show -- if they ever explain the Ricardus gambit, I will be happy, but as they have already admitted that they will not explain many things, I have to call this a cheap attempt for more whoa.

For something like this, if you never explain it, then it really was nothing -- and if it was nothing, why you wastn my time?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 3:04 PM

I don't see how anything Jacob's done has been done for selfish reasons. He has a job to do, and although we have no idea how he came to hold that job, we do know that it seems to be a pretty important one (protecting the world from pure evil). And he's been doing it for a long damn time, with a constant threat to his life hanging over his head. I also don't see how there's any questions left about his "goodness." He seems pretty damn good to me. Even Jesus got mean & nasty sometimes when he was trying to prove a point or drive home a really significant lesson. So I don't take Jacob's beatdown of Richard as a sign of any inner evil within Jacob. He had to quite literally knock some sense into him.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 3:08 PM

...if they ever explain the Ricardus gambit...


The Others all spoke Latin, it was their shared language. Ricardus is just Richard in Latin. Juliet also referred to Richard as Ricardus. I don't think there needs to be much explanation beyond that.

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 3:11 PM

I'm calling it right now, Jack will kill Flocke. He hasn't spoken to Flocke yet. Boom!

I hope I was the first one to comment on this.

Posted by: Clint P. at March 24, 2010 3:12 PM

If I remember correctly (I watched this episode late last night), Jacob mentioned that Man in Black was trying to prove that all people are corrupt and Jacob (by implication) was trying to prove that all people are good. Is this good vs. evil, or just a crazy debate using real people. Or was it just a way to be all, "Hey! John Locke is now fighting for the opposite cause of tabula rasa! Hahahaha. Philosophy jokes."

Posted by: kelsy at March 24, 2010 3:13 PM

Found this theory on Lostpedia very interesting:

Hanso was Not Buying Slaves

Spain would not have allowed its white, Christian citizens, even condemned prisoners, to be sold into slavery. Magnus Hanso must have paid a hefty bribe to "buy" those men. He could have gotten African slaves much more cheaply. Therefore, he was not trading slaves. He had a "Project" somewhere - some kind of proto Darma Initiative - and he needed "recruits" with some education (able to read and write, at least) and with no lives to go back to. He hoped that these men, though taken by force, would eventually be able to understand his greater purpose and join him willingly in his work. His Project is why he faked the loss of his ship 22 years earlier. The Project may or may not have involved the Island.

Posted by: Norwego at March 24, 2010 3:18 PM

I think I'm randomly going to say, "Hahahaha. Philosophy jokes." at parties from now on.

Posted by: Anna von Beavershark at March 24, 2010 3:24 PM

firstly...
jacob 'brings people' to the island...
that violates the premise of freewill specifically... right there. *headscratch*

so then, once there, they are entirely 'free' to decide - which polarity to assume - light/dark - service to self/others...good/evil..

equilibrium = the balance of the scales; the balance of the world, and the balance of mans' passions w/in and w/out.

i think ms. julien is on to something as far as mephistopheles - even in her depleted state.. well done....ms julien!

but - that brought to mind sting's 'wrapped around your finger'... that brought me to the line 'Caught between the Scylla and Charybdis" which could be the sea monsters of Ulysses travels - there are so many ancient tie ins..
the overt egyptian statue (funky toes), the hieroglyphs in the temple, and the hatch, ricardus' name is the earlier roman equivalent of the later latin ricardo... i see shades of prospero's calling of the tempest in depositing the losties on the island however they arrived - ship/plane... could be OT biblical...jacob/esau-esque or both - fallen angels like in 'dogma'?

now i'm wracking my brain to try and figure out, who in ancient history could be smocke's crazy mother?

bits and pieces of all the old myths...
entire kingdoms 'lost' - for the want of a nail.....

maybe its all just 'the play' from the beginning of time.......we humans must endure while here, until we pick a role and that decides when/where we go when we leave ..here.

i dunno... but i did enjoy nestor last night..he was great :)
but as someone else mentioned - the diction/accents of both jacob and MIB don't fit their timeframe.. they sound north american... which could be some allusion to their both being deposited there as 'replacements' for older versions of jacob/mib around 1860's... u.s. civil war era..

richard left the canary's sometime in 1876? post us civil war.. a sail from the canary's even to the new world would've taken quite a while, then on to 'lost island' if still remotely in its present location - in the pacific.. that would a year or more.....

nuff pondered.. i'm getting into aneurysm zone :)

Posted by: kikz at March 24, 2010 3:29 PM

I don't have nearly enough time to try to articulate this theory, and I only just now caught up on 5 1/2 seasons worth of LOST and this is the first Recap I've been able to read the day it's posted so maybe this has been touched on before...

I feel like the character/entities of Jacob and the Man in Black are kind of like the Endless from Neil Gaiman's Sandman series. These supernatural beings that embody powerful forces (with "beings" and "embody" used very loosely since the forces remain eternal while the personality/embodiment can be transitory) and they exist in a human like form but they aren't human, they interact with people but don't really adhere to human morality (they are unfazed at causing death & destruction to achieve their ends), they have supernatural powers but at the same time they are bound by specific rules and constraints that humans aren't beholden to.


Posted by: Yossarian at March 24, 2010 3:30 PM

YEA!! covered showed up! Missed you last week, friend!

Norwego, that is really fascinating. I'm gonna let my brain work that over for a while.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 3:33 PM

jacob 'brings people' to the island...
that violates the premise of freewill specifically... right there. *headscratch*

Being brought to the island wouldn't violate free will. That just sets the stage; it's something that happened to them. No one says Jacob or MIB can't interact with people, they just can't *make* them do anything, and there are certain things that only free-willed humans can do (ie. things Jacob or MIB can't do).


Posted by: Yossarian at March 24, 2010 3:38 PM

Yos, I'm not sure I follow that logic 100%, but I love you for trying it. The Endless are some of the most fascinating characters...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 24, 2010 3:40 PM

nonoNO Pajiba! You are where I flee to mercilessly mock the crap that everyone else falls for. I've loved LOST, but this season has been predominately purposeless and this episode is an offender in inconsistency.

Flashbacks are so first-three-seasons. And they're lazy. There wasn't a damn new thing in this episode. They've already explained all this to us. And yeah, sure Nestor Campbell's performance was great, blah, blah, whatever. No it wasn't. He speaks fine Spanish, but his Spanish accent is noticeably lacking. It was like watching the first trailers of Blood Diamond with diCaprio's shit accent. Richard's backstory didn't make him more compelling. It made him just like everyone else. Y las Islas Canarias no deben parecer como Hawai'i!

Richard has been one of my favorite characters, but LOST isn't Ghost and I promise you, producers. If you fooled everyone into watching a sci-fi drama only to fool sci-fi fans into watching a sci-fi-fantasy (which is never good) then I will build an altar of shit in your honor, and burn upon it offerings of hair.

Posted by: coryo at March 24, 2010 3:46 PM

"Someone mentioned before that if the show ends with Jack and "Locke" sitting on the beach next to each other going through the same scene that Jacob and MIB did last season, they're going to be pissed. If Jack is Jacob's replacement, which seems pretty plausible given the hints (May 23rd for the finale? A Sunday?!), that is exactly the scene that could transpire." katy

I also think this is the most likely outcome. Everything seems to be pointing in this direction, Locke and Jack have been adversaries from the beginning and this conclusion would ratchet that opposition up to the next level. Would be a logical resolution. Many people seem to be looking for another twist -- ala Jacob is really the bad guy, but this season seems to be more about resolving things in less twisty, unsubtle ways. Nothing wrong with that exactly.

I won't be too surprised if the last shot is Locke turning to Shephard (see, subtle name right?) and asking: "Do you know how much I want to kill you right now?" surprised -- not really. disappointed -- not sure yet, depends on how we get there.


Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 3:51 PM

I can't believe no one is as impressed by my theory as I am.

/desperate plea for attention

Posted by: figgy at March 24, 2010 3:55 PM


"The Others all spoke Latin, it was their shared language. Ricardus is just Richard in Latin. Juliet also referred to Richard as Ricardus. I don't think there needs to be much explanation beyond that." Kolby

That makes sense to me. Instead of a non-sequitor red herring, it was a tricksy red herring.

I like tricksy red herring.

any ideas on why the Latin?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 4:04 PM

Figs, I like your theory, but I'm not sure I buy it. I mean, as far as we can tell in the alternate timeline, the island is already sunken. So why would Jack have to go back in time in the alternate timeline? If I even think about that for more than a second, my head hurts. Juliet blowing the bomb is theoretically what caused the split timeline, which is what caused (at some point) the island to be sunken. So whatever Jack might do is already done. And if he's the final candidate, that's on the island timeline, so are you saying he has to replicate things in both timelines? Too messy!

But here's your attention and some actual thought on my part to boot.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 4:04 PM

Also, I poop on anyone who says bad things about this episode or Richard.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 4:05 PM

'I feel like the character/entities of Jacob and the Man in Black are kind of like the Endless from Neil Gaiman's Sandman series. These supernatural beings that embody powerful forces (with "beings" and "embody" used very loosely since the forces remain eternal while the personality/embodiment can be transitory) and they exist in a human like form but they aren't human, they interact with people but don't really adhere to human morality (they are unfazed at causing death & destruction to achieve their ends), they have supernatural powers but at the same time they are bound by specific rules and constraints that humans aren't beholden to.' Yossarian

Sounds 99% accurate to me.
caveat: I don't think Lost is cribbing Sandman.
caveat: It appears that at least MiB (thus probably Jacob as well) was once human.

As to what they are now, the rest seems accurate -- especially the specific rules/bound by part -- who is that dungeon master/ baby Jacob guy?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 4:13 PM

Me too Cindy. Poop on you all!

Posted by: katy at March 24, 2010 4:15 PM

I can't believe no one is as impressed by my theory as I am.
/desperate plea for attention" Figgy

which theory -- tell us again

I still remember your comments on the rules for a proper mystery -- that was good stuff.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 4:18 PM

Great episode. Last night things were laid out pretty much in black and white (sorry, I couldn't resist). Smokey is primordial evil, to be kept forever corked, like the genie in the proverbial bottle. Jacob's job is to keep him there. If Jacob, for whatever reasons (death, for example) cannot fulfill his duties, a replacement must step in (my bet, it's gonna be Hurley.) I also think that Jacob and Smokey have been together so long that this bringing people to the Island, Smokey trying to use someone to get him off the Island, has taken on the aspect of a Game. The Sideways world has, I think, been revealed to be h*ll, as the Island is under water there. Smokey is on the loose, and I fear that he is Sideways Locke. He was pretty naughty and instigatory with Dr. Linus. Namaste.

Posted by: ep at March 24, 2010 4:23 PM

Yaaay, attention!

My theory is my first post on this thread, but it's basically this: the final candidate sinks the Island, trapping MIB in it forever, and the alternate timeline is what happens then. It's...crazy, but I kind of like it!

Cindy, I meant that Jack has to go back in time once more in the Crash timeline, possibly with Desmond's help. He goes back, does...something to the Island, and BAM, he wakes up on the plane as we first saw him in the first episode this season, the Island sunk into the ocean long ago (which would mean going back say, to when Ben and his dad left the Island, which is the only thing we've heard about its existence in the alternate timeline).

I'm possibly insane and not explaining this too well. Or I could be totally right and the producers are sending someone after me this second.

Posted by: figgy at March 24, 2010 4:35 PM

I think it could work in the sense that the best way to keep anyone from coming to the Island and using it to their will, or from letting evil escape...is to get rid of the Island altogether. But the 'circle' of protection that's keeping MIB inside would still be intact.

Posted by: figgy at March 24, 2010 4:37 PM

But wouldn't getting rid of the island allow evil to escape into the world? Isn't it the island itself that is the cork, holding in evil? MIB just seems to be the representative, so to speak, of all the evil that's somehow trapped behind or beneath the island. Or is he "all" the evil? Is that was Dogen meant when he told Sayid that MIB is "evil incarnate"?

Posted by: Kolby at March 24, 2010 4:51 PM

Am I the only one who, when watching the scene where Richard (Ricardo) was riding in on his stallion, thought, "oooh. I like where this is going"?

Anyone?

Posted by: Amanda at March 24, 2010 4:57 PM

Jacob/MIB (I call him Esau, a la TWOP) are keeping the world in Balance. Black/white, good/evil. Jacob in white shirt, black pants. Esau in in black shirt, light pants. Still not completely convinced that Jacob is Good....

Hurley will be the key to the whole mystery...he has become increasingly important with each episode. that's my theory and I'm sticking to it ;-)

LOVED Nestor Carbonell carrying the whole episode. He finally got a chance to bust out after all these seasons.

Also love your recaps, Daniel, thanks!

Posted by: nancy at March 24, 2010 5:05 PM

Ok here goes...

If the electromagnetic field was keeping the MiB on the island, didn't it go away when Desmond let the hatch blow up? So now the MiB can leave cause the field and Jacob are gone.

For the cabin theory, it makes sense the MiB was caught in the cabin, cause didn't Ilana burn it down?

What I want to know now is whats the deal with the Others and the Dharma Initiative. Are the Others the candidates? Is that why Richard was with them? And why does Ben become their leader? Did the Initiative just chance on the island, or are they candidates too? Why are they so obsessed with the plane when it crashes?

And if Jacob brought Oceanic 815 to the island, why did they write it off as the field taking them down when Desmond misses it the first time?

Also, about the alternate reality (where the plane didn't crash), if the island is sunk, then isn't the "cap" gone? So the MiB could be free! That might be a way to tie them together.

This was the best Lost episode ever!

Posted by: Myrmidon16 at March 24, 2010 5:15 PM

Where's the money Ricardus? Where's the money shit head? Where's the money?!

Posted by: Brian at March 24, 2010 5:18 PM

"My theory is my first post on this thread, but it's basically this: the final candidate sinks the Island, trapping MIB in it forever, and the alternate timeline is what happens then. It's...crazy, but I kind of like it!"figgy

seems like said final candidate would also have to be stuck there too. So who of the six has not been shown?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 5:20 PM

we didn't hear isabella saying kill the man black, only hurley's word for it.

Posted by: d at March 24, 2010 5:32 PM

like ep's idea. that smoky is on the loose. the series' ending is the nailbiter of, will he/locke now get off the island? because that's what locke is trying to do now. he's going to the sub to get off island. and my bet for the last episode is that he does.

Posted by: d at March 24, 2010 6:04 PM

Jacob's analogy of the wine bottle and cork made me think of two things.

First, the episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Lt. Tasha Yar gets killed be the evil oil slick. An ancient race had left its home world and shed all of its evil in the process. The remainder was a semi-sentient pool of sin.

Second, it also reminded me of a certain element of Islam. The giant black rock in the center of Mecca is a sin eater. The rock is actually supposedly white, but it appears black to our eyes.

So I wonder is Smokey is some sort of sin eater or sin residue. Perhaps Smokey is some sort of device that eats sin. In the distant past it was a good thing, going around sponging up sin. But at some point it reached its capacity, and is now at a long-term storage facility. Jacob is the caretaker of the facility. The people that he brings to the Island are merely kidnapped help.

Posted by: Ojo Verde at March 24, 2010 6:31 PM

Kolbs, I'm guessing the field around the island (electromagnetic or otherwise) will remain around it when it sinks. Of course I'm mostly making this up as I go along, and...that could work?

I think something like that would work really well (getting rid of the Island) with the big themes of Lost...making though decisions, sacrifice (which also very biblical), greed, etc.

We'll see in seven episodes!

Posted by: figgy at March 24, 2010 7:13 PM

Awwww Patty I heart you more than Dharma Cupcakes. . .or our band that we plan to name the Kharma Initiative. . . and that's a lot.

If the sideways plot is hell. . .why. . .in the words of Harold Zeidler, is eeeeeeverrryyyything gooooing sooo wellll??? (I mean, for the most part, right?)

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 24, 2010 7:23 PM

ojo, that's really interesting. and a tad mind 'sploding.

Posted by: stopthemadness at March 24, 2010 7:24 PM

Ojo your comment makes me think of all those episodes of Next Gen I watched as a kid and how my dad referred to this hologram of Tasha Yar that Data had as "Yar in a Jar" and how my dad is really funny sometimes.

Also, the sin eater gambit is really interesting. You know, when Smokey initially showed up last night, I assumed he was sent by Jacob to kill the "bad" men. Because, right, at certain points Smokey has killed at Jacob's behest. So when, if ever, was he killing on his own volition (previous to Jacob's untimely demise)?

Also, if someone would be so kind, I would luuuurrrrv a further breakdown of "Smokey trapped in the cabin" theory. I'm not disagreeing with it, but I'm not sure I'm understanding the timeline (after Richard, before Ilana gets to the cabin?). What can't he do when "trapped" in this cabin? He can still show up as dead folk. He can still smoke some asses. So what was he prevented from doing? I'm just not sure I get it.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 24, 2010 7:34 PM

Sorry Figs, I'm not buying. But I'll rent for a day or two in support of you!

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 8:22 PM

Upon a second viewing of the episode, I'm not so sure that Hurley is lying to Richard when he tells him that Isabella said he has to stop the MIB otherwise we all go to hell. It seems to me that Hurley was just a little uncomfortable with witnessing an intimate exchange between Richard, a man he doesn't know well at all, and a ghost woman he met like five minutes before.

Yes? No? Maybe I just want Hurley to be telling the truth? I dunno.

Posted by: stardust at March 24, 2010 10:03 PM

Hehe. That's OK, I'm only kind of...prospectively looking at it. Or something.

Posted by: figgy at March 24, 2010 10:06 PM

I don't think the man in black was ever trapped in the cabin. Why would he kept prisoner in a fucking shack made by Eugene Tooms in the '70s? The thing can morph into black smoke. So I don't think wood can suffice, nor the ash for that matter, as it is merely the only thing Jacob could think of for humans to use as protection against It. We saw that it has its flaws, specifically indoor. Also it appears that he's free to hang around the island, so why Jacob would try and imprison him.

I think that Jacob was using the cabin to meet with people, and that the circle of ashes was meant to prevent Smokey to barge in uninvited - not the other way around - since, except for Jacob and the Candidates, Smokey can kill pretty much everyone. When the circle broke, well he was sitting there waiting (maybe for Locke) and "dressed" as Christian, killed time with Claire.

About tonight episode, well fuck time delay but I'll say it again, Nestor did some pretty fine actressin' last night and this episode was positively one of the best so far this season. Maybe it was all Nestor but I was really compelled and moved by Ricardo's story, and fuck if I wasn't scared for the first time since its appearance, by the CGI smoke monster entering the ship like a smokey anaconda. Chills and everything. Or maybe it was the crack I was smoking I don't know. Anyway, for me the big question remaining (other than what is gonna happen, obviously), and that last night episode revivified : who the fuck are the Others and what is their purpose. I mean I can guess, and I can digress, with all the information we already have. But now, after Ricardo's inception, I don't know what to believe anymore.

Posted by: rg at March 24, 2010 10:27 PM

rg, the circle of ash has been used to either keep MIB/Smokey in or out of a circle. Since we've seen Christian in the cabin, I'd deduce Christian was actually Smokey taking Christian's form - and he was inside the cabin when Hurley saw him. You make a good point that the ash could have been to keep Smokey/MIB out - but either way, at some point he was in.

Posted by: Cindy at March 24, 2010 10:54 PM

"So I wonder is Smokey is some sort of sin eater or sin residue. Perhaps Smokey is some sort of device that eats sin. In the distant past it was a good thing, going around sponging up sin. But at some point it reached its capacity, and is now at a long-term storage facility. Ojo Verde

That's consistent with quite a bit of Smokey's behavior -- the way he seems to read people (someone here called it the paparazzi rattle). Except he's supposedly not a device but a person. He could be sorta overfull with all the bile and bad inside, and that's why he wants to go. Jacob talked about the evil being the wine in the jar and the island being the cork -- that leaves the question:

What is the bottle?

Could be Smokey himself, and he just wants to let it out.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 24, 2010 11:32 PM

Posted by: katy at March 24, 2010 1:21 PM

Katy, I don't think that we'll find that none of the candidates are worthy or that we're back to a stalemate between MIB and a Jacob substitute. Jacob and MIB spoke about how "it always ends the same" and "it only ends once, everything else is progress". I think the whole show will end up being about how "it ends". And the flash sideways will be the result of the "end".

Posted by: ed newman at March 24, 2010 11:39 PM

" I'd deduce Christian was actually Smokey taking Christian's form - and he was inside the cabin when Hurley saw him" Cindy

Pretty much everyone agrees that Christian was Smokey ( and honestly I don't know who else he would be, except for actually being Christian himself). It makes sense for Smokey to be Christian while manipulating Claire. But why did Christian appear to Locke in the donkey wheel cavern? Locke didn't know who Christian was and Smokey could have appeared as anyone -- even Titus. Why tell Locke to "say hello to my son"? Locke didn't know about that relationship, and I'm not sure, but I don't think he ever did find out how the man in the cavern was or who the man's son was. Perhaps it was just Smokey laying insurance in case Locke was visiting with Jack and happened to see a mantle photo, in which case being Christian would help push things towards the loophole, but it would be interesting if maybe it was Christian after all.

Most likely, the producers used Christian because at that point, we the audience did not know who or what was behind the apparitions (still a bit of wiggle room on some of them, see above discussion), and by using Christian, they concealed the identity of the shapeshifter or even that is was a shapeshifter, and kept alive (no pun intended) the possibility that it was somehow actually Christian.

I'm not really sure I want an answer to this if they are going to just pop things off from the hip. The Black Rock destroying Taweret seemed fairly pointless to me, just a sop to the peanut gallery. People were speculating that the destruction of the statue indicated some kind of civil war or cultural revolution, but no, it's just a random accident that means nothing and contributes nothing to the mythology of the series.

If the Hurleybird turns out to be a genetic experiment with giant parrots and the losties encountered it at a seemingly significant moment, but in actuality, it's just a random coincidence, then I don't want to know.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 25, 2010 12:06 AM

Cindy, I know that my english sucks but I said that.

In The Man Behind The Curtain, Locke and Ben go to the cabin and meet with an invisible being who I believe is Jacob, probably because I think Jacob was then testing Ben.

After that, Locke, Ben and Hurley search for the cabin, and that's when Locke encounters Christian, who is without any doubt MIB, and Claire.

So the circle must have been broken between the two encounters.

But if it was before that and the cabin was meant to keep Smokey in (a theory I'm not entirely against but fail to comprehend as why is the need for Jacob to imprison him since he walks free in the 1860s?) so maybe it's the Others who managed to keep it/him in the cabin.

But as coveredinbees pointed out, how come he can appear as the black smoke or disguised as dead people. So far, we can prove that he was indeed Christian and that he is now Locke.

As I was meditating on this, I tried to pin down every eerie apparition on the island.
So far, there are Ben's mother, Jacko's father, Kate's horse, and now Ricardo's wife.
In the special case of Hurley, Dave and Charlie appeared on the real world but Dave also reappeared on the island, and since MIB would "kill them too" it'll be funny if he was indeed the Dave who tried to get rid of Hugo.

In this case, Are Ben's mother and Kate's horse incarnations of the MIB, trying to them harm, or toying with their brain, for a greater purpose, maybe for Ben to ultimately annihilate the Dharma Initiative.

My head hurts.

Posted by: rg at March 25, 2010 12:12 AM

kosmic koyote rules.

also I forgot about Christian and Locke in the donkey weel cavern (sounds like a psychotic Clue conclusion)...

the thing about smokey being the bottle in the metaphor is that it makes the whole thing more interesting and ambiguous, less good versus evil, but more yin and yang as AvB pointed out earlier in the tread.

Posted by: rg at March 25, 2010 12:24 AM

A couple of thoughts. Good episode.

1. Jacob might not be pure good, but to suggest that Smokie might be good and Jacob evil is to ignore an assload of solid evidence that Smokie's a bad guy. He's constantly billowing around killing inhabitants, and when he's not doing that he's trying to trick various inhabitants into taking out the one person he can't kill.
2. I'm starting to lean toward the belief that Jack will be the guardian and Smokie will be stuck in Locke's body, which would make the final scene of them on the beach possible. It would neatly wrap up the series by finishing up with a juxtaposition of where the Locke (man of faith) and Jack (man of science) began. Jack finds faith and becomes protector of the idea that people will choose good, while (F)Locke only cares about the evidence at hand that conflict and death is always the result.
3. I'm not sure it even matters, but I'm really starting to like the idea that Hurley is being set up to inhabit the Richard role when Jack takes charge. In fact, I think it's interesting that he has already started to do this while Richard is still alive. Again, I love this idea.

Posted by: JT at March 25, 2010 12:39 AM

I think Jacob has always been hanging out under the statue - or maybe not always - but most of the time. I thought at some point Ben said the being Jacob's was just a ruse - that was when Ben said he'd never actually seen Jacob.

MIB/Smokey has also appeared as Alex (to Ben) and as Eko's brother (to Eko).

It could be that at some point the Others trapped MIB/Smokey in the cabin.

Posted by: Cindy at March 25, 2010 12:57 AM

I commented early in the thread about Jacob not being "good" and MIB not being "evil." I love all the yin and yang discussion. The idea of Jacob and MIB having muddy intentions seems perfectly reasonable. I also like all the discussion of what rules must be obeyed when "dressing" as another person.

Some questions: With Jacob and MIB having to follow the same rules, who is to say that at least some of these apparitions are powered by Jacob and not MIB. Up until the Smockey/Jacob/MIB relationaship was shown under brighter lights this season, I assumed that the appariotions were Jacob's doing.

What is the explanation for the appearance of Walt to Locke? Walt was not on the island or dead.

I also feel like even though Locke is now in the possession of MIB, from the beginning he was being motivated and guided by Jacob. If I remember correctly Locke died when he was pushed out of that window. It was only when Jacob touched him that he woke up.

Posted by: dills at March 25, 2010 1:19 AM

Also MIB said to Ricardo that he could see her (isabella) being killed but he couldn't stop it. Is it possible that MIB has no control over himself as Smockey? When Ben summoned smockey after Keamy killed Alex, maybe he was forcing MIB, being trapped, to do his bidding. Is it possible that Jacob controls Smockey in some way. Someone already mentioned they thought Smockey was sent to the black rock by Jacob to kill the bad guys.

Posted by: dills at March 25, 2010 1:23 AM

I am now thinking that isabella was an apparition to begin with and couldn't be killed by smokey. The theory has more holes in that, under the statue FLocke clearly became smokey at will and did whatever he wanted, including killing people.

Posted by: dills at March 25, 2010 1:30 AM

Clint, I know this is mad late but on the issue of Smokey taking the form of Isabella's body:

At first, I too believed the theory of Smokey only being able to take the form of a dead body that was ON the island was shot dead. However, notice that MIB gave Richard Isabella's necklace back. The necklace is a representation of Isabella and therefore allowed Smokey to take on her form.

Also notice that Richard buried the necklace, supporting the theory that Smokey can't take the form of people who have been buried. I believe MIB could've done the same with Jack's Father, who's body was never found but who's coffin represented him anyway.

I too picked up on the fact that in alternate universe, the island is gone meaning MIB is either on the lose or has been destroyed forever. I do believe that the alternate universe seems more likely to be the effect of what will NOW go down on the island instead of an alternate effect to the "incident".

GREAT FREAKIN EPISODE!

Posted by: Littlejon2001 at March 25, 2010 1:52 AM

Could the bottle represent time(space-time)? MiB smashing the bottle like having the bomb go off, destroying the EM field that Desmond was containing. With no bottle, the cork is bypassed. Is the loophole that they were talking about?

I can see Jack being Jacobs replacement and having to deal with "Locke". They have been at odds with each other as a theme through out the entire series.

Posted by: Lazy at March 25, 2010 2:05 AM

I'm sure lots of you have noticed this but it seems that the 'MiB' (doesn't he have a name?) wears a dark shirt and light pants while Jacob wears a light shirt and dark pants. This supports the yin/yang theory, I guess.

We can also speculate that when you meet a person your vision naturally falls more on their upper half. In that sense, MiB may appear to have a dark appearance (dark shirt) but benevolent roots (light pants). The opposite could be true about Jacob which might explain his lure.

Posted by: Musouka at March 25, 2010 7:36 AM

What is the explanation for the appearance of Walt to Locke? Walt was not on the island or dead.

I always thought that was Walt using his superspecial abilities.

Posted by: Cindy at March 25, 2010 9:12 AM

Could the bottle represent time(space-time)? MiB smashing the bottle like having the bomb go off, destroying the EM field that Desmond was containing. With no bottle, the cork is bypassed. Is the loophole that they were talking about?

HOT. I LIKE IT.

Posted by: Anna von Beaverpuppet at March 25, 2010 9:20 AM

Ojo, that was such a fascinating post! I really like the idea of MIB being accumluated sin.

And that episode of ST:TNG haunted my childhood. I used to refer to her as Tasha Tar...
(ps: covered, your dad sounds like he would have been friends with my dad - I LOLed)

Kosmic, I hadn't given any thought to the bottle in that equation. I think that idea works, explaining that the cork is keeping the evil in MIB. So when he says he wants freedom, do you imagine he means death (aka release), as opposed to the freedom to tamper with the outside world as we have assumed?

Also, I have often wondered about the significance of "say hello to my son", because maybe he meant MIB's son? He says he had a life and a body, and a mother, so why couldn't he have a son? What if the bloody kid in the jungle was his son?

rg, I had forgotten about Ben's mother! But "she" kept Ben from walking in to the sonar fence, where Smokey had previous tried to trick others (trying to get Hurley to jump off a cliff, trying to get Jack to run off a cliff, etc), so I actually have no answer to your question...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 25, 2010 9:46 AM

Also (as some have pointed out) how do we put Walt's various appearances in the equation of visions = Somkey? He appeared to Shannon, all wet and garbling. He appeared to John with a divine message. And heck, what about Horace? WHAT ABOUT HORACE? He was building the cabin with his creepy nose bleed... And what happened to his first wife?

Oi, I need a nap...

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 25, 2010 9:50 AM

Agree with the Yin/Yang-ness. Not just with the same killing instructions, but I thought MIB brought Richard back to life with a touch.

Posted by: Stew at March 25, 2010 9:52 AM

Has anyone suggested that Hurley will be the new Richard? I think Richard
will be shuffling off this mortal coil before we are done.

Posted by: Mrs. Julien at March 25, 2010 10:37 AM

yoss...
Gaiman's Sandman series does seem to fit, and thanks for the reference, as i was unfamiliar w/it.

sorry though, i can't agree that being 'brought' to the island - isn't a violation of their freewill. also, jacob expressed direct 'causality' for their confluence there. his intervention either earlier/later in all their lives also exerted some indirect influence (w/his touch)(that we have been privy to) on the choices they made following that.

a single example.. flt 815.. even though we know 2 of the main characters were under direct external duress to be on that specific flight (kate/law, sun/duress from jin) - everyone 'freely' boarded and fully expected the flt to land at its scheduled port - LAX ...and go on about their lives.

it wasn't as if, they'd been invited by jacob to a free vac on 'faaan-taaa-seeee eye-lund' - 'freely' accepted the invitation and while there stupidly agreed to play 'karma olympics' and everything went to hell/handbasket.

they were shanghaied. :)

btw, i never opined that they both couldn't interact w/humanity - both seem quite ready to utilize human self-interest as a motivator to further their agendas (whatever those might actually be) ...although i will note; to date, esau/smocke does seem to dive to deeper end of the 'ethically questionable' pool to do it.

jacob; seemingly appeals to the more rational; but ultimately (we can only assume) more veiled agenda (replacements) to continue the game.

esau/smocke; appeals to the more irrational; but 'seemingly' more transparent agenda (leave) end the game - promising any 'critical path' human component the VERY thing their heart desires.

Posted by: kikz at March 25, 2010 12:16 PM

OK, I don't know if this has been discussed before (honestly, when you come late to these things there's no way to read everything) but what has happened in the alternate time line vis a vis the island not being around to keep MIB trapped?

I mean, was MIB destroyed in the explosion? Can he be killed by a nuclear explosion (the dude is black supernatural smoke after all. Seems kinda mundane if a nuke can take him out...weird dagger on the other hand...)

With the island no longer there was MIB released in '77? Is the world a much worse place because of it? This is the part I'm wondering about. IF MIB was released when the island was destroyed, it doesn't seem like the alternate timeline has suffered because of this. In fact, it seems like it's better than the island timeline. Jack manages to get his life back on track, Sawyer is a respectable member of society, Locke finds peace, Ben can still be Ben as long as he grades those essays in a timely manner.

Maybe this lends credence to the people that are saying MIB isn't evil, since the Losties lives seem better without the island. Or maybe Jacob and MIB are neither good or evil, just a couple manipulative jerks.

Ooooohhhhh, now I know how I want the series to end. I want Jacob and MIB to be sitting on the beach, watching the Losties sail away, and as the sun sets I want Jacob to turn to MIB and say, "Well Mortimer, I guess you won." And hand him a crumpled dollar bill.

Posted by: ASterisk at March 25, 2010 12:28 PM

"What is the explanation for the appearance of Walt to Locke? Walt was not on the island or dead.
I always thought that was Walt using his superspecial abilities." Cindy

There are a few possible "classes" of island apparition.
I imagined making a chart, but that would be embarrassing even for me.

There are a few that are obviously Smokey -- Flocke being the prototype proof.

There are some that probably were not Smokey -- Hurley's various encounters being perhaps the best example.

There are a couple more that are up in the air.

Christian was probably Smokey, but there is some strange stuff going on there -- especially because Christian's body was never found (Smokey probably just hid it, but still).

Walt is the most special of special cases. He visited more than one of the other losties in apparition form -- and appeared to be doing so under a different mechanism than any of the other apparitions.

I think Walt has been more or less retconned out of the narrative stream because of the practical problem of the actor playing Walt having changed so much -- the producers have said as much.

It doesn't make logical sense that we are just supposed to "forget about him," it would be unacceptable in a novel for example, but we are probably just going to have to take a Mulligan on this one.


Before this happened, Walt was obviously going to be a big deal: all kinds of rule breaking special abilities. He also seemed to be the lostie most intimately associated with the whispers. I hope losing Walt doesn't mean we also lose the whispers. The whispers is the little bit about which I am most curious. An inch to the left or to the right on that one could redefine pretty much everything else that we've seen.


Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 25, 2010 4:25 PM

"Kosmic, I hadn't given any thought to the bottle in that equation. I think that idea works, explaining that the cork is keeping the evil in MIB. So when he says he wants freedom, do you imagine he means death (aka release), as opposed to the freedom to tamper with the outside world as we have assumed?" Patty O'Green

That's a meaty question right there.

What does it mean that MiB wants to go home?
It depends on who you believe.

Dogen said that Locke/MiB is "Evil Incarnate." We'll leave the unfortunate parallels to Time Bandits alone.

MiB has claimed that he "was a man once."

There is a way for both to be true, and the writers may go that way -- but the two statements point at two diverging sets of answers to the questions surrounding Jacob and Mib's identity (I believe the revelation of these identities will be the dénouement of the entire series, with a possible Locke/Shephard coda).

If Dogen is correct and MiB is "Evil Incarnate," then MiB and Jacob are supernatural/eternal/cosmic forces from outside the normal boundaries of space and time -- i.e. angels, demons, avatars, etc. Outside of space and time would account for all that energy pocket, time travel, island moving its location stuff (the energy pocket seems to be the "wine in the bottle"). Neither can be "killed," merely banished as when Gandalf had to go back to the Undying Lands (destroy the mortal vessel, blah, blah). "Evil Incarnate" is kinda boring -- why do you do bad things? Cause I'm evil baby, and that's how I roll.

If MiB is telling the truth (we know he is bound by rules and may possibly be obligated to only tell the truth -- an idea that I like, lying by telling the truth is a deliciously well established literary convention), then the crazy Smoke Monster was once a man. To me, this is the most interesting version, because it would mean that Smokey has been slowly telling us his backstory in bits and pieces all along: he was a man, he had loved ones, he had a crazy mother, he just wants to go home.

It's a big damn deal that MiB still doesn't have a name -- perhaps this is significant. MiB claimed that Jacob stole his body. Possibility number one is that he was lying, and Jacob did no such thing. If this is true (that he lied), then he can lie about anything and nothing he says can be trusted, and everything we've seen so far is red herring (Cuse and Lindelof's favorite dish). Possibility number two is that Jacob did steal MiB's body. What if Jacob stole not only his body, but also his name? Maybe that's how Jacob is keeping MiB trapped on Craphole Island. We know for sure that Jacob has some way to hold MiB on the island, and that mechanism seems to still be in place, even after Jacob's death -- so what is that exactly? This would explain why MiB is a shapeshifting smoke creature -- his mortal body is unavailable to him. If Jacob also stole MiB's name, that would give Jacob dominion over MiB -- depending on which kind of magic Cuse and Lindelof have decided is valid in their narrative universe. The smoke monster being made of smoke (and not nanobots, according to L&C), not to mention Jacob having the ability to confer immortality with a slap on the shoulder, definitely seem to point towards magic, not super technology. MiB telling the truth is both the simplest explanation and the more interesting.

We already know that Jacob drives a hard bargain. Dogen told us so. And now, so has Richard. Even Ben would agree with this idea. Wouldn't it be interesting if the man who became Smokey made a similar deal? "Evil Incarnate" is a pretty boring concept. I think, whatever it turns out to be, Smokey's function will turn out to be more complex than just pure seething evil -- pure seething evil doesn't even fit with the character as it's been drawn for us. Some folks have suggested that Smokey is a kind of judge and executioner. He has been referred to as the island's security system (cerberus even). He might be a sin eater. That would be way cool (maybe too cool for this show). I think Dogen was over-simplifying, he obviously didn't know the whole story. I think MiB works for Jacob somehow or works with Jacob for some higher authority (mini-Jacob/dungeon master/bloody christ child perhaps). I think MiB is not "Evil Incarnate," but instead works with or around that evil as judge, executioner, sin-eater, watch-dog, advocate for the corruptibility of man, or something.

Where is MiB's home? If he is an angel, fallen or otherwise, than home is the celestial kingdom (I doubt that will really be what happens in a television show designed for an American audience, but I could be wrong). If he was once a man, then his people are long gone, and home is a more metaphorical idea, and he just wants what Richard wants.

As for Smokey always telling the truth, or at least telling part of the truth -- I know what you're thinking -- MiB told Richard that Jacob was the devil. Obviously that was a lie, and therefore MiB does lie and we are back at square one (another favorite for our producers). Or it is possible that MiB was speaking metaphorically, and only meant that Jacob is "my" devil, Satan means adversary after all. But did you notice what happened when Richard told Jacob that MiB had claimed that Jacob was the devil? Jacob smiled and nodded, nor did he deny it. That's odd.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 25, 2010 5:39 PM

The thing is, I would love to make some kind of a chart, in flash animation, and try to pin down every and any thing that happened on the show having some significance, but I wouldn't know how to begin. Also I'm not a nerd but a geek.

When the show ends, we'll be left with no questions to answer, and that (and this kind of comment tread) is what make this show so compelling.

Posted by: rg at March 25, 2010 5:52 PM

another..ineffable.... 'he who must not be named'...

i've been pondering that too..
jacob just will not utter it.

and smocke will not give it, other than as 'i'm that smoke thing' to sawyer.

stones riff.....
pleased ta meetchooo, won't you guess my name...


possibly its just to piss MIB/smocke off.. the ultimate diss...

or betelgeuse! betelgeuse! betelgeuse!... some power is conferred or unleashed w/the utterance of his name...

shrugz?

Posted by: kikz at March 25, 2010 8:28 PM

So I was just reading through last week's post (I missed it because I was-well whatever) and, towards the end, after the part where a bunch of Pajiba chicks started fighting over this swinging French person, people were asking questions about Flocke's crazy mother. On the one hand, I agree that Flocke (like Joe) lies to suit his own purpose. But, and forgive me if someone brought this up, but John Locke's mother was insane, so I was thinking Flocke was just accessing Locke's memories of that for his own purposes.

The EW columnist who brought up Faraday is bananas, but I sort of liked the idea that Smokey is Aaron-I know people have brought up the idea of Aaron as Jacob. . .and maybe he's no one. But if Smokey is Aaron, that might be muy interesante.

Aaaaaand, what else, there's something else, oh yes. SHOW US DESMOND, YOU MOTHERFUCKERS. IF HE IS IN THAT SUBMARINE, LET HIM OUT.

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 25, 2010 8:47 PM

p.s. smokey's noises..

seems more of a mashup to me... the main pieces i hear, part rattlesnake/part locust-cicada type noise.. there could even be a much slowed sound effect borrowed from 'predator'.

Posted by: kikz at March 25, 2010 8:59 PM

I was thinking that, besides the rattle and the t-rex' roar, there's this chain-sound thingy, which could be the thing that prevent Smokey from escaping. I don't know, right know I'm wandering when in last week's post, pajibettes started fighting over me.

Posted by: rg at March 25, 2010 10:43 PM

Oh it's all there, mon frere. (That's my French Desmond impersonation).

Posted by: coveredinbees at March 25, 2010 10:54 PM

Perhaps MIB is being literal when he says Jacob stole his body, and that is why MIB has not been given a name.

Posted by: Stew at March 26, 2010 11:24 AM

Kosmic you've blown my mind once again.

Bear with me on this, because it gets veeeery twisted and confusing.

I dated a writer once who wanted to write a story about choices, concerning Christ dying for our sins, and Satan taking up the battle. If one of those two had said, "You know what? No." (which they were able to do) Imagine the consequences.

I only say that because of Kosmic's point about the varying things MIB could be - "judge, executioner, sin-eater, watch-dog, advocate for the corruptibility of man, or something."

When Christ died "for our sins", he took on the burden of them. Imagine every single human, then and now, handing over weighty armloads of baggage. Christ carried those sins for us, in our names. He never sinned himself, but he carried ours, in order to free us.

Something about the term "sin-eater" (which I think originated in the Tasha Yar post), along with the idea of MIB being the bottle holding the Evil, got me thinking. What if he started out clean? What if he is bitter because, after centuries of carrying the sins of others, he is exhausted and tainted and fed up? I guess my point is, what if he didn't choose Evil?

It fits into the Yin-Yang idea, too. If Jacob is The Good Guy who protects the Island, but he trapped MIB with the burden, he can't be wholly good. If MIB is the bearer of Evil, but offered to do so with good intentions, he has some glimmering remainder of good.

I think I have officially over thought this, but my brain ran away and I had to chase after it.

Also, nerd or not, anyone who makes an accuarte chart following Lostie facts is alright with me.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 26, 2010 11:34 AM

Hey Patty

I do what I can. Did your writer ever write the book? sounds interesting. I started reading Brust's To Reign in Hell the other day, which seems to explore ideas in this department. Lucifer and Michael and the other angels are characters in a family drama kind of thing. But I just started reading it, so I don't know where it will go. Brust is kind of funky, so I don't know if it's a "re-telling" from a different perspective or an actual alternate version with new outcomes. A friend recommended it to me, whom I trust, so I've not looked at any reviews so as to avoid the spoiler effect.

Ojo Verde came up with the sin-eater idea, based on the Black Stone at Mecca. The Black Stone was originally white, but has become black as it absorbs man's sins.

I think Ojo's idea is brilliant, I love it, but I'm not sure it will turn out to be exactly what Cuse and Lindelof have in mind. On the other hand, I do think that Ojo's idea hits more than it misses. It may just be sloppy writing that left the bottle out of Jacob's analogy about the wine and the cork, or it may be a significant omission. I doubt we will find out until the actual finalé.

I think you are right that MiB might be a little like Christ (boy is that statement going to upset some people), in that he has made some kind of sacrifice and taken up a burden by choice. If the writers are not completely incompetent, this would be the point of introducing the Dogen character and also of explaining Richard's back story. These were both everyday mortal men driven to extremes by circumstance, who sacrificed personal freedom and accepted terrible burdens because they thought it was the right thing to do.

We have already seen Richard have a crisis of faith and step from the path. He was lucky enough to have a medium on the island at the right time, so that his dead wife could give him a push in the right direction. Assuming of course that it was luck, and not Jacob's talent for precognition that put Hurley exactly where he was needed.

Unfortunately for the MiB, there is no dead wife to turn him back to the path (just a crazy mother for whom he's trying to make up for by taking care of Claire?). I think you're right -- he's just tired. Maybe a mortal asked to perform an immortal task, and possibly angry because he didn't originally understand the full impact of what he had agreed to, just like Richard, just like Ben even.

As for Yin and Yang, I think Lindelof has said that the was the idea behind their black and white themes and symbols. I'll have to go look that up.

I'm glad you were entertained by what I wrote, I'm glad anybody took the time to read it at all -- I seem to have a hard time saying anything quickly. The nature of this comment thread keeps me from editing it down.

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 26, 2010 5:12 PM


Hey Patty

I was just re-reading your post. What does it mean "Christ carried those sins for us, in our names"? I didn't know about the connection between sins and names. Can you explain a little or point out a link for me? That's a really interesting idea. exciting idea.

also ties in with the namelessness of MiB -- was that part of what you were talking about?

Posted by: Kosmic Koyote at March 26, 2010 5:18 PM

MIB: Why the heck are we still here it's all pointless.
Jacob: We are keeping things in balance.
MIB: Who cares! I got to be marooned here just to let these worthless beings "pollute & corrupt". They're no good, not worth the trouble.
Jacob: There you go, only thinking of yourself again.
MIB: They are not gonna change, What's the diff., sooner or later?
Jacob: You have no faith. Maybe I can convince you.
MIB: Don't bother, I'll just put 'em on ice.
Jacob: They have to try, if they get it right once - we won't have to be here.
MIB: Excuse me. Not gonna happen. I'm not sacrificing myself to save them. I'll find a way. I just have to kill you first.
JACOB: Someone else can take my place.
MIB: Don't worry, I will figure out how to kill them too - the rules be damned.
Jacob: If you break the rules, you know what will happen.
MIB: Don't worry my friend, I will find a loop hole. I ain't going down with you just to save them.
Jacob: Like I said, it just has to happen once, maybe you will learn something or change you mind in the process.
MIB: Not a chance. I'm off this shit hole, if it blows - good riddance!! Not like it will affect me.
Jacob: Yes, it is all about YOU.
MIB: Fuck off!!!

Posted by: Swarm at March 27, 2010 3:39 PM

(golfclap) swarm. :D

Posted by: kikz at March 28, 2010 1:29 PM

Ojo Verde, I cannot believe that I am JUST NOW making the connection between your theory about the stone in Mecca and the Black Rock. It burst in my brain, and the juices are a'flowin'.

I'm glad you found the name idea so exciting, Kosmic, but allow me to do a bit of Biblical research before I spout off and attempt an explaination. I will come back to it, even if it ends up on next week's thread.

Posted by: Patty O'Green at March 29, 2010 1:54 PM

Well...what if Jacob could also change form?

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