A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall
Jesus, Etc. / Daniel Carlson
In my former column, Theophilus, I brought you news of religious goings-on in and around Hollywood. My original intent was to round up disparate bits of faith-based entertainment news out of sheer curiosity, and also so that you might be better informed about the difference between the good and bad types of Christian entertainment. (Like every other film/TV genre, 90% of religious entertainment is pretty awful. Surprise.) The whole thing seemed to go over pretty well, with only a few of you deciding that playing nice isn’t nearly as fun as, well, not. But the feedback was overall on the supportive side, and what with the positive reception it got last time, as well as the fact that I want to, it’s time once again for Jesus, Etc. For those of you who are just now realizing that this column deals with religion in pop culture — and I know some of you suck at context clues, and so are just now actually figuring this out — and who don’t feel like sticking around, that’s cool. Check out the reviews and news and such. Everybody else: Let’s God it up.
From Ass-To-Ass To Arky Arky: Darren Aronofsky knows a thing or two about impossible journeys. His entire oeuvre is dedicated to paranoid freaks being beaten down and swallowed whole by a life that refuses to make things easy. Or anyway, it was until The Fountain, when Aronofsky tempered his dark vision with a tender-hearted romantic fantasy about the same souls finding each other through the power of love three times over the course of a thousand years. On one hand, drug-fueled insanity; on the other, fluffy bunnies. Aronofsky is out to combine the two again with his latest project, a spec script about Noah. Yeah, that one. With the ark. No, not that ark. The other one. The giant boat in which Noah, per Genesis, loaded up his family and two of every kind of animal to survive 40 days of torrential rains that flooded the earth and another year on the boat just looking for land. (And you better believe there’s a kids’ song about it.) Aronofsky has apparently been interested in the tale since he was 13, when he composed a poem about it for school. And, in a completely unsurprising twist, he seems more than willing to psychoanalyze the story through modern pop constructions, reducing a potentially complex story to something that seems like a bad “ER” rerun: “Noah was the first person to plant vineyards and drink wine and get drunk. … It’s there in the Bible — it was one of the first things he did when he reached land. There was some real survivor’s guilt going on there. He’s a dark, complicated character.” (Emphasis added.) I don’t know, but tacking the phrase “survivor’s guilt” seems to somehow lessen the whole thing, you know? It’s not like Noah wrecked his Mustang after prom and wound up killing his girlfriend; the entire planet was drowned by a vengeful creator. It seems that Noah’s vineyards and wine-drinking were more, I don’t know, celebratory, as he offered up a drink in thanks that he actually made it, and of course poured out a shot for his fallen homies, the unicorns. No telling when Aronofsky’s film will actually get made, but given the preproduction debacle of The Fountain, I’d say we have a while to wait.
Plant a Tree, Go to Heaven. I Think. Man, this is quite the day for Noah news. I’m not quite sure how I feel yet about the upcoming Evan Almighty, a spec script that was shoehorned into a sequel to 2003’s Bruce Almighty and will feature Steve Carell as a modern-day guy picked by God (Morgan Freeman, again) to build another ark. The premise is just a tad more disconcerting than that of the first film: While God just wanted to teach Bruce a lesson in gratitude and make him a better person, one assumes that in the sequel Evan is building an ark because another flood’s on the way, which doesn’t bode well for humanity. Anyway, what with the environment now experiencing the social and political vogue it hasn’t felt since the heyday of the ozone-layer brouhaha, Universal Pictures and the Conservation Fund are teaming up to bring the “Almighty Forest” to the interwebs. For $5, you can plant a virtual tree, which represents the real tree that the $5 is actually going to purchase. But hey, it’s not just a great way to be environmentally proactive without going outside: Donors who buy a virtual tree before June 22, the film’s opening day, will have their name placed in the DVD’s credits. So go plant a tree, kiddos. Who knows when global compassion will be this hip again?
Show Me That Smile Again, You Nutjob. So, for those of you who didn’t hear, perhaps because you were busy with jobs and lives or else just didn’t feel like watching crazy people argue on TV, Kirk Cameron recently appeared on “Nightline” as part of a debate about the existence of God. The whole thing started when “Nightline” did a piece on the Rational Response Squad, which operates a site where people can upload video of themselves denying the existence of God so that they might receive a sticker or a pin or something. (You think they’d at least take into account how poorly this worked out for Bart Simpson, but whatever.) For a few brief seconds — for I am, dear reader, pretty stupid on occasion — I wondered if the debate would actually touch on subjects of importance or deal with knotty issues in mature, nuanced ways. After all, the moderator was Martin Bashir, the in-no-way creepy British guy who got Michael Jackson to open up on camera, so things had to be on the level, right? But of course the entire thing was stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. Cameron and his business associate, Ray Comfort, come across as shady snake-oil salesmen, trading in half-truths and eerily dulcet tones that don’t do anything but weird out their opposition. What’s more, I’m a Christian, and I found Comfort’s arguments to be patently ridiculous when it comes to “proving” God’s existence. The problem is that he isn’t attempting to prove the existence of a/the God, but rather laying out a three-point call to salvation that’s based in the shoddy theology intelligent design. He said he could do it without appealing to the Bible, only to use the Ten Commandments as the second of three weak propositions to support his case. Their rebuttalists were a pair of dour twentysomethings who weren’t as polished at public speaking but were infinitely more honest in their intentions. They said they weren’t there to disprove God’s existence, merely to refute the claim that Cameron and Co. could scientifically verify God’s existence. The whole thing was lamentably one-sided, usually in favor of the atheists. I realized after watching the clips (which can be found in part here) that ABC has no interest in hosting a peaceful or intellectual debate. There’s no money to be made by calming everyone down and promoting a grudging pluralism, which is why they didn’t recruit smart, moderate speakers from the different sides of the argument. They simply picked Kirk Cameron and his wingnut wingman and let them stand in as the voice for all believers. Needless to say, this is offensive to me and just about all my Christian friends, who think Left Behind is indicative of a horrible, short-sighted, antagonistic brand of faith, a brand we don’t want to be associated with at all. I wish ABC would have enough respect to actually engage people in legitimate discourse and have enough courage to deviate from the dialogue seemingly cribbed from moronic Chick Publications tracts that they walk through every time. Cameron and Comfort tried to argue for God with bad science, when no one ever comes to the faith because of the numbers, but because of their society, their family, their changing beliefs, their personal lives, or any one of a hundred other areas that can’t be quantified by hucksters hawking Bibles. To put it another way, I can’t prove God exists; I feel it.
Well, that’s all the awkward confessional time we have for today. I’d like to reiterate the standard warnings and encouragements for the comment thread below: Any and all opinions are welcome, but if you’re gonna be a dick about something, at least try to back it up with some half-assed proofs, OK? None of this “FIRST!!! God sux k im going to defamer” stuff. See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand. Until next month, I leave you with the fantastic stand-up comedian Mike Birbiglia, and his awesome take on Christian rock:
Daniel Carlson is the managing editor of Pajiba and a low-level employee at a Hollywood industry magazine. He’s just a bus driver, so what does he know? You can visit his blog, Slowly Going Bald.
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Comments
I so wish there was a good, fair forum for public discourse on TV at the moment - for lots of topics, not just religion. TV is often trashed by its critics as being a low-level medium, a non-stimulating, violence-inducing, junkfood-promoting medium. But I have always thought that it is such a powerful form of communication, and has such potential to serve as an educational tool and a source of varied public discourses. Plus, It is right in our living rooms, every single day. However, most main stream channels/networks etc are too full of BS and falsity for such potential to be realized. Eg, I find it hilarious that the source of news that I (and so many other people) find to be the most 'truthful' (in terms of cutting through the outer layers of falsity/publicity/crap) is not from an actual news outlet but the comedy channels 'The Daily Show'!! However, even when my beloved Jon Stewart went on Crossfire (a supposed forum of public debate) to have a political discussion, it ended badly (though with highly entertaining results, and I agreed with everything Jon said!), SO... my question is, can there ever be any forum on television that can fairly and non-stupidly deliver public discourse? Especially on something that is as emotive as religion tends to be?? I feel the answer is no, but I would love for someone to prove me wrong.
Posted by: JJ McLay at May 15, 2007 7:01 AM
Just yesterday I was wondering if I'd ever see another "God it up" column, and here you are!
Cameron and friends are so jaw-droppingly ridiculous that Cruel.com used to permalink his website. I'm sorry I missed his appearance on "Nightline" but perhaps it's just as well--those witless, staged TV "confrontations" always set my teeth on edge anyway.
Posted by: Jerce at May 15, 2007 7:15 AM
'I woke up in the morning and I had some transubstansiated toast'
awesome...
'Cameron and Comfort tried to argue for God with bad science, when no one ever comes to the faith because of the numbers, but because of their society, their family, their changing beliefs, their personal lives, or any one of a hundred other areas that can't be quantified by hucksters hawking Bibles. To put it another way, I can't prove God exists; I feel it.'
Thankyou for putting very eloquently what I've always tried miserably to express. I just wish more people with such a healthy liberal attitude to faith and religion could stand up rather than being overshadowed by zealots who think they can prove God with flawed logic and bad science. Not only would our intelligence be less insulted, religion might not get such a bad rap in the media.
Posted by: rach at May 15, 2007 8:54 AM
Hey, the link to this article from the main page is messed up. You misspelled "Pajiba" in the URL.
Posted by: meryl at May 15, 2007 9:07 AM
The problem with having a "good, fair forum for public discourse on TV" is that it won't sell in the ratings game. This is the world of the Jerry Springers, the OReilly's et al...
To have an honest dignified discourse would mean most likely, CSPAN or PBS.
Isn't there a petition we can sign or something... can I donate some money somewhere to show that I really do prefer to be talked to (not screamed at) about differing views and opinions about religion, politics, society, etc? Pretty please?
Posted by: Stella at May 15, 2007 9:10 AM
An American friend of ours scared the hell out of us the other day when she intruduced us to Veggietales - wonderfully animated vegetables singing and dancing disturbingly about Christianity. A little cucumber sang "God's way is the best way". It went a long way to explain the recent political trend.
Loved this column. Loved the "Who is God?" Google ad too.
Posted by: cinekat at May 15, 2007 9:21 AM
My prediction re: Evan Almighty? It's once again a "humbling" experience meant to teach Evan about hard work, humility, the value of family, blah blah blah. Morgan Freeman looks way too nice to flood the earth.
Although, in the first movie, God is a Yankees fan, so you never know...
Posted by: Ariel at May 15, 2007 10:10 AM
There is at least one guy who is trying to have some reasoned debate about religion. His name is Jim Henderson, and he may be the kind of guy you may like:
Posted by: Vermillion at May 15, 2007 10:26 AM
Thanks, Daniel. This is a great column subject. I hope you keep up with it.
I cringed when I saw Evan Almighty begin being advertised . . I just saw parts of Bruce Almighty again on TV a few weeks ago and was fetal over and over again over how devastatingly bad that movie was. The end was the worst - I swear it was obvious that it was rewritten and reshot.
And Veggietales are the evil most parents predicted about Barney in 90's.
Posted by: idiosynchronic at May 15, 2007 10:55 AM
Great column, once again. I vaguely remember hearing something about Cameron and his Nutjob friends appearing on a "debate" on Nightline, but didn't give any mental space to it. Ever since he bought into the crappy and intelligence-insulting Left Behind series, I've got no spare brain power to waste on him. People like him give sane and tolerant Christians like you, me, and quite a few others on here and around the world a bad name. I know that the squeaky wheel always gets the grease, but the problem is that a lot of people don't see Cameron and Co. as the people on the fringe - they see them as the norm. And that disturbs me.
I'm kind of interested on Aronofsky's Noah tale. It does have the potential for major suckitude, but, I dunno, maybe it will be good. I'll maintain my relentless optimism until it's crushed by a crappy trailer.
Love that Mike Birbiglia bit! I can't stand modern Christian music - it's so uninspired and bland! It's like they have a list of 100 words and 50 phrases that they are allowed to use, so they just rearrange them over and over to create new songs. When I used to go to youth group functions in high school no one could ever understand why I couldn't stand the music they played. But I couldn't understand how they could like it. Give me monk chants over Jars of Clay any day.
Posted by: stardust savant at May 15, 2007 11:17 AM
If you want to see all of the clips of the Cameron/Comfort wackfest including some behind the scenes stuff, BSAlert.com has some excellent coverage.
Posted by: ueberbill at May 15, 2007 11:21 AM
Here's the link to the article... HERE.
Posted by: ueberbill at May 15, 2007 11:23 AM
So 'Left Behind' is not only a movie Homer saw on the Simpsons that lead him to believe the end was nigh, but also an awesome book series? How did I not know that?
"If Tim LaHaye had his way, the title of his newest book, the final installment in the hugely successful Left Behind series, would be Jesus Wins. But he grudgingly settled on Kingdom Come, amid strong urging from his publisher."
Maybe his publisher didn't want him giving away the wildly surprising twist ending in the book's title. I like being a christian, but I don't like that guy. But I still love him, of course...
Posted by: melissa at May 15, 2007 11:59 AM
Theophilus. Hee. Thank you, Luke.
Love this feature, by the by. Kirk Cameron's "Nightline" appearance caused a hearty round of cringing among me and my fellow theology students.
Love, love, love the Berbiglia bit. Transubstantiated toast!
Posted by: bethness at May 15, 2007 12:23 PM
We're all just bus drivers, and it's time to go home.
It's true, much of Christian music is cringe-worthy, but for every 10 Lifehouses and Creeds there's someone who knows how to write lyrics, like Caedmon's Call or Jennifer Knapp.
Posted by: maebe at May 15, 2007 12:28 PM
Come on, love him or hate him, you gotta admit that Ray Comfort gave the clear and definitive proof for God's existence once and for all with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiZYyN6Yp68
I mean, haven't atheists worldwide been waking up in cold sweats thinking about bananas since the release of this amazing video?
Dan, great column (especially enjoyed the Acts opening and Galatians ending).
Posted by: david at May 15, 2007 12:32 PM
What, ABC couldn't get Daniel Dennett to appear on this "debate?" I'm currently reading through his (so far) very thoughtful, insightful and relatively even tempered (unlike, say, those books by Dawkins and Hitchens of relatively recent vintage) book, "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon." If they could get believers who are as open-minded and insightful as Dennett is in this book (so far, I'm only to the end of part one), it would make for a great debate. Maybe not great, revenue-raising TV, but a great debate.
Posted by: Armando at May 15, 2007 12:48 PM
I should read comments before I post...but nah!
I don't know about Veggietales. They're not ALWAYs so bad. For the most part their messages tend to be more general, be nice to each other kinds of things. But then, the most recent version of that show I've seen is rather old AND I was somewhat disconcerted to see that they have a regular show now airing on ABC on Saturday mornings. When did religious programming become allowed in the networks?
I'm so confused!
Posted by: Armando at May 15, 2007 1:00 PM
I've been Pagan for ten years now and I really enjoy this column. Of course, I work for an episcopal church, so I'm used to the God thing. It's nice to see these things talked about without the typical the other side is wrong comments.
Posted by: TWoP Fan at May 15, 2007 1:01 PM
Very nice work, Carlson. Very nice work!
Posted by: M at May 15, 2007 1:17 PM
I would love to see a Tarantino take on Noah, lots of fuck yous and interspecies same sex anal rapes with a touch of blaxploitation referencing.
Bruce Willis attached as a burned-out alcoholic Noah.
Posted by: BarbadoSlim at May 15, 2007 1:18 PM
I am a black girlie who was once blacklisted for successfully winning a debate in class, in which I was supporting segregation. No one would speak to me after that, unless it was to ask me how I could live with myself. And I told them that anyone who passed Philosophy 101 could argue the existence of a chair, but that doesn't mean the chair won't support you when you need to sit down and shut the fuck up, it was just a freakin' debate, you moron!!!
Or something like that.
Amen.
Posted by: that bees chick at May 15, 2007 1:18 PM
Melissa:
Technically he saw Left Below, but yes, that's one of the best sequence in the history of the Simpsons.
Anyone who hasn't seen it should.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7goqLxPbEQ
Btw, great column Dan, keep it up.
Posted by: Kevin Longrie at May 15, 2007 1:30 PM
Danielson and Sufjan Stevens make lovely Christian faith influenced yet not preachy music.
Posted by: missmle at May 15, 2007 1:38 PM
LOVE the Caedmon's Call reference in your bio line!!
Posted by: bebemiqui at May 15, 2007 1:42 PM
VeggieTales rock! My favorite is Josh and the Big Wall where they are headed to the promised land (The land of milk and honey... Sounds sticky!) and have to march around Jericho for a week while being taunted by French peas! Monty Python and the Holy Grail anyone? Try looking a little closer, many Christians have brains... and a sense of humor! And we'll try to do the same for you liberals.
Posted by: Jen at May 15, 2007 1:49 PM
Speaking of religious zealots, Jerry Falwell just died a few minutes ago.
Posted by: Brianne at May 15, 2007 1:50 PM
Dan, are you familiar with Slacktivist? Whip-smart and a great writer, and for the past few years he's been doing a (page by page!) deconstruction of the Left Behind series.
Great column as usual!
Posted by: Alanna at May 15, 2007 1:58 PM
Errr, an interesting mentioning of the Christian right today...and a day to bring back Jesus, etc.
Jerry Fallwel is dead at 73 - NY Times
Posted by: BLA at May 15, 2007 2:07 PM
Brianne: I wish I could ask him if hell is as hot as they say it is?
Posted by: BarbadoSlim at May 15, 2007 2:09 PM
Brianne - sorry, didn't notice you posted it first. At least I know someone else is on top of the news...slow day at work.
Posted by: BLA at May 15, 2007 2:13 PM
No problem, BLA. :) I'm engaging in schadenfreude about this at the moment. I'm terrible. I'm sure I'll be seeing Jerry Falwell in hell. Oh, good thing I don't believe in the place.
Posted by: Brianne at May 15, 2007 2:41 PM
Dan-- Christastic column! Keep 'em coming.
And hey, lay off the Veggie Tales hate! All the videos are just vegetables acting out humerous versions of classic bible stories. And for the person who said they were shocked by a cucumber declaring, "God's way is the best way." Umm, what are they supposed to say? "God's way sucks?" Or, "God's way is sort of, maybe, probably a good idea?" Come on.
And who didn't love the musical genius of "We Are the Pirates Who Don't Do Anything" Definite Monty Python inspiration.
Posted by: Jenn at May 15, 2007 2:52 PM
I don't get the Veggie Tales hate, either. I think that if you can look at it tongue-in-cheek and realize these are aimed at little kids , then you can maybe take some of the saccharine "God's way is the best way. But seriously, those songs are absolutely hilarious. I think some of their movie spoofs like "Lord of the Beans" are killer.
"Left Behind" is a scary franchise. I for one don't believe in the rapture and don't think that scaring people into becoming believers is Christian behavior.
Posted by: bonnie at May 15, 2007 3:10 PM
Wonderful post. I'm going to have to farm out your youtube clip.
Posted by: Rozie at May 15, 2007 3:12 PM
Try looking a little closer, many Christians have brains... and a sense of humor! And we'll try to do the same for you liberals. >>
Wait, wait, wait...so now the opposite of "christian" is "liberal?" What's up with that?
Posted by: Armando at May 15, 2007 3:54 PM
Just a little right-wing humor. Don't take it to heart.
Posted by: jen at May 15, 2007 3:59 PM
Oh come on, Jen. We all know that right wingers have no sense of humor. :-P
Just teasing you, of course. I do find it striking, however, whether your words were meant humorously (is that a word?) or not, that what you typed reflects a mindset of some people in more conservative Christian circles. "Liberal" and "liberalism" have become bad words in our language, usually meant in a derogatory manner, completely the opposite of their dictionary definitions. Consider, however, that many of the views Jesus purportedly espoused (I'm not entirely convinced of the historical accuracy of the gospels anymore. Sorry) are so liberal as to be almost communistic, had such a thing existed in the first century (in fact, Soviet officials long denied the existence of Jesus by claiming that he was a character invented to hide a very early proletariat movement in the Middle East).
I know, I know: I am coming across as such a stuffed shirt!
Posted by: Armando at May 15, 2007 6:10 PM
I was really hoping the link would lead to the unicorn song, but you did manage to get the shout out in there for them. Love it!
Posted by: Alarmjaguar at May 15, 2007 6:41 PM
I'm a pretty militant atheist (don't stone me to death, please,) but I used to watch Veggietales with kids I used to babysit and I think they're hysterical. The Hairbrush Song, Pirates who Don't Do Anything, The Water Buffalo Song...so great. I would just ignore all the God stuff.
Posted by: Brianne at May 15, 2007 6:59 PM
My niece and nephew grew up loving Veggie Tales, and display zero horrible aftereffects from them now.
Yes, the creators are Christians and the stories contain "moral" messages, but they're nonsectarian and very gentle--not to mention witty and sometimes just funny as hell, as many here have already pointed out.
If you've ever had to keep company with small children in front of a TV, lemme tell you, there are far worse viewing choices than Veggie Tales, not least of all in terms of entertainment value.
Posted by: Jerce at May 15, 2007 9:21 PM
As a devout Jehovah's Witness . . . . I have absolutely nothing to add to this conversation besides me fervent hope that Wolverine plays Noah. Thank you.
Posted by: Fernando at May 15, 2007 9:30 PM
I mean, "my fervent hope". SIGH . . . . goddamnit.
Posted by: Fernando at May 15, 2007 9:31 PM
Loved the Caedman's Call shout outs, but lay off Jars! I grew up in the evangelical/non-denominational Christian church during the 80's and 90's. I got sick of being told that my secular music was evil when there was nothing even remotely close to decent options available amongst "Christian" artists. It was all cheesy, lukewarm pop crap: Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith, DC Talk (who I once saw in concert!), etc. etc.
When Jars of Clay first came out with "Flood" I thought it was the freakin best thing I'd ever heard from so-called Christian musicians. Subsequent albums from Jars haven't really clicked with me like their debut, but they were practically revolutionary at the time. Christian artists who made good music that wasn't just gussied-up praise choruses. Which is pretty much what is being peddled now as Christian rock.
Anyone read the book "Body Piercing Saved My Life"? It's an examination of the Christian rock culture and seems intriguing.
Posted by: Alabamapink at May 15, 2007 9:42 PM
Did you catch "God or the Girl" on TV last summer? Just wondering what you thought of it.
Posted by: dede at May 16, 2007 6:58 AM
Did anyone ever see the Southpark where Cartman starts a Christian Rock band? It was AWESOME. His band's name is Faith + 1 and they take all songs and insert the word Jesus for Love. It's a great episode. The songs are freakin hilarious.
Description:
Cartman, Butters and Token rocket to the top of the Christian rock charts with their own messages of faith in an all-new episode, entitled "Christian Rock Hard." When the other boys kick Cartman out of their band, Cartman pulls his own group together to make music for Jesus. Meanwhile, Stan, Kyle and Kenny are arrested for downloading music from the Internet.
Posted by: Amber at May 16, 2007 6:35 PM
I so wish there was a good, fair forum for public discourse on TV at the moment - for lots of topics, not just religion.
I completely agree!
Can someone enlighten me? I've always been curious (an frankly uncomprehending, since I'm not American and don't live in America) about all this militant-[insert religious affiliation or lack of here] that seems so prevalent in the US.
Then again, I also don't understand why being Christian excludes being a Liberal when (and here you may ignore me, this is the effect of gradaute school)the development of liberal principles such as human rights and human dignity owe a lot to Christianity. Thanks.
(PS. Really enjoying this column, Daniel!)
Posted by: bloodsugar at May 17, 2007 1:43 AM
When did religious programming become allowed in the networks?
Well, when I used to live in Texas every Sunday morning that's all you could get on the networks.
I just ordered a book from Amazon that a friend recommended called Righteous: Dispatches from the Evangelical Youth Movement by Lauren Sandler. I'm a former evangelical youth myself (now an Episcopalian adult) so it will be interesting to read another perspective on the current batch of youth.
Just thought I'd share that with the "Jesus, Etc." audience. I've been meaning to look into that Body Piercing Saved My Life book someone mentioned. Anyone else have book recommendations on this subject?
Posted by: Lainie at May 17, 2007 8:20 AM
I've been Pagan for ten years now and I really enjoy this column. Of course, I work for an episcopal church, so I'm used to the God thing.
made this episcopalian girl smile.
Posted by: kb at May 17, 2007 3:02 PM
Yes Armando I agree with what you and Bloodsugar are saying, and you are completely right. I think most of the beliefs of the Liberal's platform is, as you say, could be traced to the Jesus movement in the first century. But the differences that have to do with the other "planks" of the platforms, both sides have encompassed. Right to life/Right to die in pregnancy and in capital punishment areans.
Posted by: G40 at May 24, 2007 8:28 PM