So when us Pajiba folk originally came up with the plan to put together this Group Guide of The Best 15 20 Seasons of the Past 20 Years, we also quickly agreed to leave “Freaks and Geeks” out for the simple fact that I had already done a pretty lengthy write-up of the show as The Best Short-Lived Show of All Time, one of the earliest entries in Pajiba’s Guides to What’s Good for You. However, when the autoschediastic (your word of the day!) decision was made to bump this Best Of list from 15 to 20, we could no longer keep “Freaks and Geeks” out. I don’t care who you are, or what you think about our list as a whole (more on that whole can of worms in a moment), this show demands entry on the list. So I went back to that old Guide entry and refashioned it for this here entry. Fair warning — it’s almost entirely the same article, with the main differences being that the old introduction is gone and a new conclusion paragraph has been tacked on. Sorry about that, but I’m simply not a particularly eloquent or thoughtful man, and I just didn’t have much more to add to what I said last time.
Now, one more thing before we get into the article-proper. There has been some heavy debate going on in the comment sections to the last few entries in this series and I wanted to mention it up top here for those folks who don’t normally follow the comment threads. Because I think it’s a valid discussion and, despite it getting a little heated and ugly at times, I fucking love that conversations like this take place here on our little corner of the web. In a nutshell, some folks have taken the Pajiba crew to task for daring to call this a “Best Of” list when it is currently neglecting what some consider objectively necessary entrants. A valid criticism. However, when you’re talking about art and the appreciation of art and, especially, the ranking of art’s purported value or merit, I think that objectivity necessarily goes out the window. Good criticism is all about subjectivity and, more significantly, art itself is all about the creators’ ability to affect viewers/observers, both collectively as well as individually. In fact, if you’ll excuse me sounding like a stoned college sophomore in a coffee house on a Friday night at 11:30, art is all about trying to break through the boundary of the objective in order to specifically get a subjective response. In other words, it’s practically the fucking definition of subjectivity.
For example, the vast majority of movie fandom loves classic Woody Allen (Annie Hall was even a member of our recent series on 70s flicks). Those films would seem to fit the bill of being objectively great. Yet I hate every motherfucking last one of them (don’t worry, I’ve already turned in my Jew card). Does this mean I’m wrong, because I don’t like something that’s objectively wonderful? You may say yes, but I say no. Rather, it just means that I don’t like these movies. I can appreciate that others do; shit just don’t work for me. And so, if I were making a list of the Best Movies Ever Made by a Nebbish Jew, would I include any Woody Allen flicks, even though they’re “objectively” great? No ma’am. Because it’s my list, and it’s my subjectivity that’s deciding what’s “best.” Should I refer to the list as “favorites” rather than “best?” In another context, perhaps. But here, I again say no. Because inherent in such a list is the very subjectivity of the list, and “favorite” and “best” essentially become the same thing.
So turning to our own little list of great TV seasons, do I personally believe that every entry belongs on the list? Nope. There are at least two which I haven’t seen, and a third which I dislike immensely. But I’m 100% comfortable with them all being on the list, even to the detriment of some other shows that I’d personally include in their place. And that’s because I think that the list, as a whole, does a pretty amazing job of subjectively representing the aesthetic tastes of Pajiba, both the staff and the readers. Does it capture everyone’s individual taste? Of course not — that’s impossible. Is it open to criticism and debate? You betcha — what “Best Of” list isn’t? I mean, I’ve never seen such a list which didn’t have several entries that made me utter a “bullshit” under my breath. But isn’t that the fun of these lists, that they get you riled up and lead to discussion and criticism (and even a little comment flaming)? So if you disagree with “Freaks and Geeks” being in this list well, first off, you’re wrong. (“But Seth, doesn’t calling me wrong go against what you just said, like, one paragraph ago?” You betcha. But it’s the author’s prerogative to be hypocritical when it suits him!) But more importantly, feel free to plead your case and tell us all how fucked we are for this and other entries in our list.
And with that business out of the way, let’s turn to this wonderful little nugget of a show.
Ken: I always say girl plus car equals dead animal.
So, “Freaks and Geeks.” For those who aren’t in the know, let’s do a quick recap. Set in suburban Detroit during 1980-81, the show focused on two groups of students at McKinley High. The viewpoint of the show is largely presented through older sister Lindsay Weir (Linda Cardellini) and younger bro’ Sam (John Francis Daley). Spurred by her grandmother’s death, Lindsay decides to find her “real self” by shedding her prior skin of a bookish overachiever and befriending the titular Freaks. This group appears to be chosen by Lindsay, at least in part, because of her not-so-secret crush (to the viewers, at least) on Daniel (James Franco), who’s the default leader of the group and a James Dean-wannabe who is outwardly rebellious but secretly also trying to discover his own Self. Lindsay’s desire for Daniel is curbed a bit by the caustic Kim (Busy Philipps) — not only is she Daniel’s current girlfriend, but Kim’s the one member of the Freaks group who seems unwilling to open the door to such a “square” (she does manage to come around, mostly, as the show progresses). Lindsay is much more accepted by the goofy Nick (Jason Segel), a wannabe drummer who bemoans John Bonham’s passing and worships at the altar of Neil Peart’s (of Rush) mind-bogglingly enormous drum kit. And Ken (Seth Rogen) is entirely indifferent to Lindsay, as he is to most things in life (in fact, the only real given about Ken is that if the keg is in the corner then he, too, shall be in the corner).
Meanwhile, Lindsay’s younger brother Sam, a geek and a high-school freshman who, along with his other geek friends, is afloat in that awkward stage of life that is male puberty. Mind you, they’re not nerds, and this is an important distinction — as the show’s creator, Paul Feig, and executive producer, Judd Apatow, have often pointed out, nerds were their own little social clique, smart and focused on academics. Geeks, on the other hand, weren’t necessarily all that smart or good in school, they just had other (often unconventional) interests, which meant more to them than the things that typically hold high-school students’ interests (e.g., Star Wars and “The Dukes of Hazzard” rather than history class or sports). Sam is trying to adjust to this world of high school that he’s been thrust into, said world including bullies, gym-class showers, sex education, cheerleader crushes, and the never-ending rigors of just trying to fit in; he would probably be much happier if he could return to the in-retrospect bliss of junior high. Sam’s friend Neal (Samm Levine), meanwhile, is an 80-year-old Jewish grandfather stuck in the body of a 14-year-old boy — while he’s as socially awkward as Sam, he carries a confidence and sureness about himself that helps keep things centered for the group, most of the time. Which is particularly necessary because the final member of their trio, Bill (Martin Starr), is a gangly uber-geek who is spacey and bizarre and coming at things with an entirely unique worldview (and he’s also the comedic gold of this show — who else would dress up as Jamie Summers, The Bionic Woman, for Halloween?!).
Nick: Hey, I believe in God, man. I’ve seen him. I’ve felt his power! He plays drums for Led Zeppelin and his name is John Bonham baby!
Of course, this is high school, so nothing is quite as cut and dried as a two-paragraph synopsis, and nobody’s journey follows the easy A-to-B route. Lindsay finds herself continually pulled back to the life she’s trying to get away from as her nerdy friend Millie doesn’t understand why she’s trying to be cool and hang with the burnouts, her high school guidance counselor just wants her to rejoin the school’s Mathlete team and her parents are generally either oblivious to her changes or frowning at the direction she’s taking with her life (which leads to her father invariably relaying some unintentionally hilarious tale about how a personal friend or famous icon of the past made similar decisions and wound up desolate or in jail or dead). Sam, meanwhile, is just struggling to hold on. Resigned to the fact that he’s got no choice but to accept all these changes in his life, Sam slowly moves forward in the new world order, making the same mistakes and missteps that countless others have made before him. Others take similarly awkward coming-of-age journeys, from Kim trying to find a balance to her rough exterior (which is largely a result of her difficult home life), to Nick’s attempt to keep his rock star dreams alive when his Army dad wants him to get his shit together, to Neal trying to come to grips with his father’s affair.
Sam: What am I going to say to Cindy?
Bill: Don’t say anything — be dominant. It’s all, all about dominance. I saw this monkey show on PBS. If you talk to her first it’s a sign of weakness and she will not pick you to be her mate.
Sam: Are you drunk?
Bill: I think so, yes I am.
Sam: Aw man, go into my room, lock the door and don’t drink anymore.
Bill: That’s very dominant.
What makes this show so utterly fantastic is that it hits the mark dead-on. While high school is an oft-revisited theme in both movies and TV, I can think of few endeavors that ever really get it right. For example, while the John Hughes oeuvre is fantastic and has moments that are authentic, the overall tenor of Hughes’ world doesn’t really feel like my high school. But watching “Freaks and Geeks,” McKinley High feels like Marple Newtown Senior High (MN Tigers, what!), and I’ll bet it feels like yours too. And this is true even though the show is clearly set in the early ’80s, a decade before I was going through the process myself. Many of Sam’s experiences still ring true for me, and I suspect the same could be said for kids who were in high school in the ’70s or who are going through it right now. Because at its ugly core, the high school experience really doesn’t change that much over time, as it’s always brutal and wonderful, awkward and fun. The outside world constantly moves forward, of course, and leaks into the high-school bubble, exerting its influence in various meddlesome ways. But at the end of the day, high school is high school is high school. And even if you weren’t a geek or a freak when you went through the experience, there will undoubtedly be plenty of moments in the show that ring true for you, regardless of what caste you were in. which make you cringe or smile at the remembrance of your own growing pains.
And for me, it’s this very timelessness and realism which gives “Freaks and Geeks” its heart and soul. Of course, heart and soul isn’t enough for a show to reach the echelon of greatness. If it were, “7th Heaven” would be lauded as the end-all-be-all, and that’s a world none of us want to live in. But “Freaks and Geeks” managed to achieve the sought-after but rarely found perfect mix of all the necessary TV elements. First and foremost, it’s lone season is filled with top-notch dramatic storytelling that doesn’t try to hit you over the head with issues and messages. The writers understood that simply dealing with things in a natural and realistic way gets any “message” across (where they even had a message agenda) way better than having an episode where a creepy dude shows Sam and Neal cartoon porn and subsequently touches Neal’s goody bits. There’s also a sense of humor to the show which is rarely executed with such mastery and it has the kind of witty dialogue that has become the bread and butter of recent dramedies like “Veronica Mars” and “Gilmore Girls” coupled with equally hilarious non-dialogue bits (such as Millie and Nick’s amazing duet of “Jesus is Just Alright with Me” or Styx stymieing Sam’s slow-dance with a sudden tempo change in “Come Sail Away”).
Of course, the greatest material in the world doesn’t mean shit if the actors aren’t up to the task. And here, too, the mark is hit with a set of actors who performed the hell out of their roles. All of the main actors nailed it like champs. In fact, while the Geek actors have yet to really make any leap in Hollywood, the four Freaks are all enjoying successful post-“Freaks and Geeks” careers, from sitcoms (Segal, in “How I Met Your Mother”) to dramas (Cardellini in “ER”) to hit movies (Franco in the Spiderman franchise and Rogan in Knocked Up). But even the side actors were spectacular. Particular standouts include Thomas F. Wilson (Biff of the Back to the Future trilogy) as the overbearing gym teacher (who surprisingly does Sam a good-on by giving him an honest and earnest lecture about sex, filling in the gaps between the school health videos and Sam’s surreptitiously-obtained porn video), Joe Flaherty as Lindsay and Sam’s amazingly deadpan father, and Dave Allen as the ex-hippie guidance counselor Mr. Rosso.
Neal: Friday night — always a good time for some Sabbath.
All of which begs the question — why did such an amazing show fail to get even a full season on the air? While there’s no clear-cut answer, the brunt of the burden would seem to fall squarely on NBC’s shoulders. They decided to air the show, which seems particularly geared towards the ever-precious 18-49 demographic, on the television dead zone of Saturday nights. The show wallowed in this time slot for five episodes in the fall of 1999 before NBC yanked it. During those early episodes, I had heard rumblings that this show was amazing. And though I’m a TV Whore, even I didn’t bother to watch — after all, Saturday nights were for heavy drinking (I was in law school in those days, so, truth be told, all nights were for heavy drinking), not staying at home and watching TV (and these were the dark days before TiVo, and it was rare that I’d take the oh-so-difficult effort of actually setting my VCR to record a show). I suspect that this same Saturday night “life vs. television” conflict caused many other potential fans and viewers to miss the show. So when NBC brought it back after the holidays, they smartly put it on Monday nights. Its ratings went up slightly in this more affable timeslot but, without a real marketing push or support from the network, it didn’t do anything great and it was yanked again after five episodes (and it wasn’t helped any by being put against the then-juggernaut that was “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?”). The network aired two more eps a month later and then burnt off three more episodes on a single Saturday night during the July doldrums (and three episodes were never even aired by NBC).
While its frustrated fan-base was small, it was devoted. In fact, I learned of it from one such devoted fan, a friend of mine who was an extra on the show and who repeatedly extolled its virtues, ranting endlessly about its greatness. When she managed to garner a tiny bit of real screen time, though no dialogue, I finally buckled down and set the VCR. Unfortunately, I hopped on the wagon pretty late as that episode, “Looks and Books,” was the last of the second set of five episodes that NBC aired. But that one episode was enough to hook me, and a new love affair began. I tuned in for those two episodes that ran in March, I actually stayed home on the Saturday night in July when the final three episodes (including the finale) were burnt-off, and I later managed to catch all of the episodes when Fox Family gave it a short syndicated run.
Luckily for everyone, this devoted fan-base didn’t let up even after the show’s cancellation. Several years and one online fan petition signed by 40,000+ fans later, a fantastic DVD set was put out. Amazingly, all of the show’s extensive and fantastic original music was cleared (while this isn’t a problem for newer shows, because they include DVD terms in their original music licensing, this is a big issue for many pre-DVD era shows), as the lack of any portion fo that soundtrack would have been devastating. The DVD also includes a fuck-ton of commentaries from writers, producers, directors, actors, and even some of the show’s characters. Bloopers, deleted scenes, alternate takes — pretty much everything a fan could ask for is there.
I’m sure that many of you have not seen one or more of the shows on this little Best Of list we’ve been putting together (as I said up top, even I haven’t seen two of them). And I think it’s fair to say you’d be doing yourself a service to rectify that situation as soon as possible. However, if you haven’t seen “Freaks and Geeks,” I’d get it to the head of your Netflix queue, above whatever other shows you’re planning to watch. Because, of all the shows on our list so far, I think this one actually has the broadest appeal. I know it’s hard to say that about a show that lasted a mere single season, when other shows like “The West Wing” or “The Simpsons” had/have considerably longer runs, higher viewership and wider popular appeal. But as I said earlier, this show is the high school we all went through, regardless of what era you were there or what group you hung out with. Turning back to the objective/subjective distinction I talked about many thousands of words ago, it’s like this — we might objectively get what it’s like to work in the White House or have a yellow-skinned dim witted father, but we subjectively understand what’s going on in “Freaks and Geeks.” We empathize with the characters and the situations in a way that rarely happens with any movie or TV show and it just hits home. And if that’s not great TV (and great art), then I don’t what the fuck is.
DJ: Aren’t you one of those guys who’s always running in here yelling “disco sucks?” What’s the matter, cat got your bong, man? Is that how you learned to communicate, running in here and yelling stuff? Is that what your precious rock and roll teaches you?
Ken: No, it teaches me that disco sucks!
Seth Freilich is Pajiba’s television editor. Both objectively and subjectively, he’s a geek.
DVD Releases 07/08/08 | | Pajiba Love 07/08/08
Comments
Bill Haverchuck is my boyfriend.
Posted by: Missladyperson at July 8, 2008 12:20 PM
OK, you guys barely avoided me starting the apocalypse by including this show. I don't care how many times it's been reviewed, dissected, and discussed -- this show is the best and leaving it off would have been a major travesty.
When I think of this show, two scenes always spring to mind: that god-awful outfit that Sam wears to school one day, and the guys going around the neighborhood trying to find out which house the stray garage door opener belongs to. Those two moments exemplify the hilarity and poignancy of the show.
Posted by: Three-nineteen at July 8, 2008 12:20 PM
Booya! Millie: I know what high people look like. I went to a Seals and Crofts concert last summer.
Posted by: Sean at July 8, 2008 12:33 PM
Bill Haverchuck is my hero.
Posted by: JH at July 8, 2008 12:39 PM
"i'm the genius. it was my idea."
that is a quote that my friends and i probably say between 5 - 500 times a week to each other.
Posted by: bree at July 8, 2008 12:46 PM
Awesome, awesome review (as well as new intro/outro). Now what the hell are you guys gonna do? "Least Essential 20 Seasons"?
Who barely made the list? I DEMAND TO KNOW WHERE PETE & PETE STOOD!
Posted by: Skittimus Maximus at July 8, 2008 12:53 PM
This makes me think my life doesn't suck. Moving to top of Netflix now.
Posted by: Emily at July 8, 2008 12:56 PM
I like Bill Haverchuck!!I am told I am a pretty american woman. I am single now and sometime feel lonely, and want to find a hot guy to be with me. Not long ago, I uploaded my hot and even se*y photos on hot hook-up club **M E E T R I C H. C O M**, where the hot guys and sexy girls and models hook up for Hot Love and Sexy Dating!...I've been there and had great experiences!!
Posted by: jossy at July 8, 2008 1:04 PM
If it were, "7th Heaven" would be lauded as the end-all-be-all, and that's a world none of us want to live in.
Hell to the effin' yeah. If anyone needs to write a column about the 85 reasons (at least that many, maybe more) why 7th Heaven is an insult to the universe and all that intelligent, I will volunteer to take that hit.
I hate that show with every single fiber of my being. The WB should have been disbanded before that show was ever, EVER allowed to hit the airwaves.
Thank you for your nice words about the list. Art is certainly subjective, and I say this as an art history minor who thinks that the Sistine Chapel ceiling is not Michaelangelo's greatest work.
Posted by: Melody at July 8, 2008 1:09 PM
I like Bill Haverchuck!!I am told I am a pretty american woman. I have guns and a murdertank, and want to find a zombie-fighting army to be with me. Not long ago, I uploaded my hot and even se*y photos on **M U R D E R T A N K 4 U . C O M**!... I've been there and had great experiences.
Posted by: Pea at July 8, 2008 1:14 PM
It's about time!!! Great review!
Posted by: tt_marie at July 8, 2008 1:15 PM
During the strike earlier this year I went the library and discovered their extensive DVD collection and because of this site I decided to check out Freaks and Geeks. I was not disappointed. I loved it! Jason Segal's Nick was so sweet. I love him on HIMYM. And it was interesting to see all these actors when they were basically kids. Very funny and touching show. I wish I had watched it when it was on TV to give it the ratings it needed. :-(
Posted by: lyricalcatt at July 8, 2008 1:19 PM
Empathize is right! I bought the DVD set on the recommendation of your first write-up. I watched straight through for several evenings and then had to stop and take a break because Lindsay was reminding me of my high school self in a not at all comfortable way. Cringe after cringe after cringe. I love it, but I'd still like to give Lindsay a good hard smack upside the head once in a while.
Posted by: elizabeth at July 8, 2008 1:26 PM
Spot on! I was one of the few who actually saw it start to finish (pre-college, my Saturdays were inhumanely dull; post-college, I'm relishing the dullsville). You have convinced me that I need to order the DVD immediately.
The scene that sticks with me:
The Ken and Lindsey "Baba O'Riley" bit. Perfect example of trying to be effortlessly cool about something you barely know and then being shot down. That scene is high school in a nutshell.
Posted by: frumpiefox at July 8, 2008 1:26 PM
Mrs Weir, "Your father's first time wasn't special."
Mr. Weir, "I would do anything to get that five dollars back."
A truly great show.
It's a bit of a mixed bag that the stars and creative minds behind this show are now getting so much recognition and exposure. I'm a fan of Superbad, 40 yo, Knocked Up, Sarah Marshall and the like. In fact not only do I like these movies, but I found myself rooting for them when they came out, due to my love of Freaks and Geeks. But it seems that every other trailer you see has the phrase "from the people that brought you 'Knocked Up'".
I like the Judd Apatow machine, for the most part. But it feels like we're right on the edge of a backlash from overexposure.
It reminds me a little bit of the Ben Stiller Show from the mid 90's (also produced by Apatow). Unappreciated, off beat humor that died a premature death. I still laugh my ass off at the Andy Dick floating head meditation guru. The writers and actors then go on to a successful mainstream career to the initial delight of their core audience that quickly grows to resent their repetitive, lazy film choices. I mean, how many times can you watch Ben Stiller have an awkward social moment while taking a shit?
Will I soon feel the same way about my friends Ken Miller, Nick Andopolis and Daniel Desario? I hope not. But Pineapple Express might be the proverbial straw. Of course it could totally kick ass too.
Posted by: Heybulldog at July 8, 2008 1:33 PM
Great re-review, and I think your added comments at the beginning sum up the key points of the discussion/flamewar of note. Again, another show has made the list which I haven't seen, and it sounds like I'm going to have to correct that somehow, especially if it influenced my beloved Veronica and ladyhelmet's favourite Gilmore Girls (which I could tolerate because of the very well written dialogue). I don't care about arguing the merits of art (which I barely understand) when it gives me such high-quality options and alternatives to present shit programming - so thank you all, very much. Melody, thanks for volunteering to fall on the 7th Heaven grenade, because that show and me are like matter and antimatter - I don't dare watch it for fear of bad things happening. Seriously, I couldn't be more puzzled how someone as bright as ladyhelmet could possibly love that cloying, saccharine, dual Star Trek alum-wasting radioactive mind-numbing black hole of suckage so much.
Posted by: lordhelmet at July 8, 2008 1:40 PM
What's the matter, cat got your bong, man?
Ladies and gentlemen: Joel Hodgson
The use of "No Language In Our Lungs" during the team picking is a masterpiece. The higher price for all the music clearance is indeed completely justified. See also: The Who over Garry Shandling on the Dinah Shore show. Why is that scene so good? Almost heartbreaking even.
"No, if the cops trace the call you're dead"
Posted by: Jay at July 8, 2008 1:56 PM
Love Freaks and Geeks, The Simpsons, The West Wing and, of course, Buffy, but I'm going to be a sad panda if Sports Night doesn't make the list.
Posted by: bartap at July 8, 2008 1:58 PM
Lordhelmet, 7th Heaven is what happens when people believe that tv should provide life lessons for us all. It was a condescending, annoying, saccharine, over-inflated sack of flaming poo. My hate is reinforced by the knowledge that the PTC (Parent's TV Council, i.e. those people who tell us what tv is morally proper/mind numbingly insulting to broad swathes of the public) called it the best show for families for all of the unholy 11 years that it was on.
It even got a reprieve for an abbreviated final season.
I hate that show. How that show lived on and my beloved Pinky and the Brain went away is beyond me.
Posted by: Melody at July 8, 2008 2:01 PM
dual Star Trek alum-wasting
Yeah, isn't that so weird?
Also: autoschediasm is defined as something extemporized. Beautiful.
Posted by: Jay at July 8, 2008 2:01 PM
I netflixed the whole thing after reading a love-letter to the show on this site- I had been lucky enough to cath an episode or two when it was on, and thought "This show looks cool," and then it disappeared. Now, the quickest way to get me in a good mood is to get the theme song stuck in my head again. "ANAGIBA-damm-bauwma-ejuKAYshun..."
Posted by: that bees chick at July 8, 2008 2:07 PM
Sorry- not "ejukayshun," but "rebbuTAYshun."
Always preiview your comments, kids.
Posted by: that bees chick at July 8, 2008 2:09 PM
I DEMAND TO KNOW WHERE PETE & PETE STOOD!
This reminds me, how great would it be to have reviews of all the old classic Nick shows? Salute Your Shorts, Ren & Stimpy, Are You Afraid of the Dark?, Rocko's Modern Life, etc.
Then again, I think I'm in the smaller crowd that grew up watching these (I could be wrong).
Now that I think about it, these shows were pretty god-awful. I can't even watch a full episode of Full House or Saved by the Bell anymore without my insides swarming.
Posted by: Colin at July 8, 2008 2:12 PM
Also (sorry, I'll duck out in a second), let me give proper credit and say I'd never touched this show until I visited my best friend three years ago and she'd rented it (cause Movie Madness in Portland rents you box sets as one item) and said "you're watching this". Odd way to spend a vacation? Maybe. It was grand.
Posted by: Jay at July 8, 2008 2:16 PM
My dad had to stop watching the show because the geek storylines were too painfully reminiscent of his own high school days in the 60s. As for me, pretty much any scene where Lindsey attempts to be cool and is mercilessly shot down by Kim/Daniel/Ken pretty much sums up my own high school existence in a nutshell. Seth's absolutely right in saying that anyone can subjectively get this show- we all lived it.
Posted by: Ellen at July 8, 2008 2:17 PM
I haven't read this yet, but I have been WAITING for Freaks and Geeks to appear on your list. I watched it last year, and it was truly amazing. So sadly reminiscent of high school...anyway, I'm sure I won't add anything here that isn't already in the review. Just wanted to say good call, Pajiba, good call (from a longtime lurker)...
Posted by: JMK at July 8, 2008 2:23 PM
I want to see the worst 20 seasons! WORST 20 SEASONS!!!
Posted by: Bebe at July 8, 2008 2:24 PM
I'll never understand why Sex and the City is on the list, but I can make peace with that as long as Sports Night and Gilmore Girls get their due. I'm not kidding.
Posted by: SCannakate at July 8, 2008 2:41 PM
so weird that this made the list this week, because i re-watched the whole dvd set last week. i fall in love with it over and over again. when it came out i had just started high school, and so many little things in the show were identical to what i was going through. it kicks 7th heaven's ass in the family show department: my entire family used to watch this together when it first aired and we all loved it. my parents didn't allow us to watch 7th heaven. i highly recommend the DVDs to those who haven't bought it - the commentaries and extras are almost as much fun to watch as the actual episodes.
Posted by: eat my shorts at July 8, 2008 2:51 PM
I second the love for Pete & Pete and SportsNight!
Any of you in the Pajiba universe happen to have watched HBO's Carnivale when it was on? When HBO canceled it, I promised myself that my HBO subscription was gone once The Sopranos ended. Now I have Showtime so I can watch Dexter and Weeds.
Posted by: JH at July 8, 2008 2:57 PM
Although she's the bridge between the groups, I always thought that the least compelling character was Lindsay (although in high school I would have killed to have her hair). I don't know if that's due to Cardellini or the writing, but Lindsay's actions and decisions never seemed as real as those of the other characters.
And until Apatow started explaining why geeks aren't nerds, I had never heard that distinction. I went to high school immediately after the year in which this show was set, and the words were pretty much interchangeable in my experience. (I suppose "geek" was considered to be the slightly newer word, at least in that particular usage.)
Maybe they weren't used interchangeably in Apatow's high school, but they were in my school in the Southwest and by my friends in the school I would have gone to if we'd stayed back East. As a result, his oft-asserted distinction sounds to me more like a personal conceit rather than an accurate explanation of school subcultures of the day.
In spite of these paragraphs, I love this show. When it first came on I thought it would be unwatchable, either because it was (a) not something that reflected my experiences, or (b) too accurate, and therefore painful. Imagine my surprise when it turned out to be accurate (I didn't live any of those exact lives, but I recognize them) with an entirely manageable level of pain.
Posted by: KateNonymous at July 8, 2008 3:24 PM
Dammit, if Newsradio's second or third season doesn't make the list, I'm going to be disappointed. Not surprised, mind you, because if there was ever a brilliant show that flew under everybody's radar, it was Newsradio. But disappointed!
Posted by: mightygodking at July 8, 2008 3:26 PM
I need to know where season four of The Golden Girls fell on the list. Are you friggin' kidding me?! All four actresses won a goddamed Emmy! ALL FOUR OF THEM! Jesus, you bastards and your adoration of your friggin' obscure hipster shows baffles me to no end...
Dorothy Zbornak, Sophia Petrillo, Rose Nylund and Blanche Devereaux didn't make the cut huh? SERIOUSLY?! You include a goddamed season of Sex & The City on the sumanabitching list, and you don't include these grey-haired vixens?
This site has provided a bunch of kick-ass reviews, but to exclude a show that tackled topics other shows wouldn't touch (health care, infidelity, gun control) is a slap in the face. How can you ignore Blanche's lurid stories and suitors, Rose's crazy antics, Dorothy's man hands... GRRRRAAGH - WHAT THE HELL'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!
Me and Minimus are hereby turning in our Pajibadges and guns... This place has truly hit rock bottom. Enjoy the MurderTank, all - I left the keys on the front seat. It's been an honor - I'm just sorry it had to end this way.
Posted by: Skittimus Maximus at July 8, 2008 3:59 PM
It's been mentioned, but the use of music in this show for both comedic and dramatic effect is as good as it gets. I think every episode had a musical moment that usually featured a pretty obscure song that perfectly captured the moment. Allman Brothers Whipping Post to portray the anxiety of teen sexuality. Styx Lady when Nick confesses his love in the lamest, funniest, most sincere way possible. Bob Seger You'll Accompany Me when Sam finally scores with Cindy. When Bill is eyeballing the Gym teacher the morning after to The Who. Lindsey dancing in her room to Box of Rain. And, I think the best one, is the final scene of Lindsay getting off the bus, meeting Kim and their hippie friends to The Grateful Dead's Ripple. Maybe it's because this was the music I discovered and loved when I was 17. (still do, of course) These scenes, most of which had no dialog, portray the anxiety, excitement, frustration and freedom that is unique to adolescence. As pitch perfect a depiction of my own experience as anything I have seen or read.
Posted by: Heybulldog at July 8, 2008 4:01 PM
I'm thrilled that Freaks & Geeks is getting its due, and I have agreed with most of the choices for this guide so far (I can hardly comment on what I haven't seen), but are we ever going to get a review of something that isn't American? (Farscape may have been produced in Australia but it was American - hell, it wasn't even popular here in Oz when it was on).
While I fully expect a tribute to The Office, a part of me suspects that this will be the only international show to get a mention. I understand that most of the staff is from the U.S. but you do have international readers, and if the purpose of this is to represent "the aesthetic tastes of Pajiba, both the staff and the readers" then I hope you do cater to us.
I realise that it's too much to ask for shows in languages other than English, but I will suggest the following: Life on Mars, Coupling, Slings and Arrows.
Posted by: Bennet at July 8, 2008 4:11 PM
Skits, dude, settle. I would hazard a guess that The Golden Girls was only excluded because just the later seasons aired within the last twenty years, and while still excellent, they were vastly inferior to the early seasons. Either that, or it was left out because one assumes that everybody already knows how awesome the show was. Ridiculous and crazy, but awesome nonetheless. I have the first four seasons on DVD.
PS - That purple-panted, mullet-sporting tramp is seriously starting to freak my shit out, and I blame you. I thought that picture was funny until you forced me to pay closer attention to it, and now I have to hold my hand over her face because her eyes are following me. She is evil and not of this earth. She wants to eat my brain, I know it.
Posted by: Sarina at July 8, 2008 4:17 PM
Whoa! Did I just get invited to post a mere week after TK told everyone not to talk to me?
I'm having a particularly busy day (selling real estate and some other things) so I'm going to do a quickie short post.
A) At least you tried.
B) No dispute as to the inclusion of Freaks and Geeks on its own merits. The show was undeniably fantastic.
C) The only reason one could argue to exclude Freaks and Geeks is because the other "compulsory" shows will inevitably be excluded by its inclusion in lieu of one of those shows. That is NOT the fault of Freaks and Geeks, it is the fault of Veronica Mars, Friday Night Lights, Buffy, etc etc.
D) In essence I think you're really arguing for a "reader response" type approach above all others. Unfortunately this is probably the most widely criticized form of criticism in part because it is so damn hard to do well and because it completely destroys any notion of actual criticism. The writer stops writing about the work and instead writes about themselves. That doesn't seem to be the focus of the articles in relation to this series and as a result I think the argumentative force you're employing is a little off the mark. Besides, if you start going down that path you have to compete with the master of the genre, Chuck Klosterman, which would be pretty maddening.
Probably more later from your valuable member of the community and non-troll,
Sirkickyass
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 8, 2008 4:24 PM
I was going to abstain from making suggestions - but now I just can't stop myself. Gilmore Girls! I loved the Gilmore Girls. I think I'm supposed to be a little embarrassed by that- but the dialog was so clever and Lauren Graham is a goddess.
As for the purple-panted woman - she's not nearly as creepy as the skinless penis (or at least that's what it looks like to me) under the "if you eat meat" tag.
Also, Freaks and Geeks was a truly wonderful television show.
Posted by: megbon at July 8, 2008 4:30 PM
I've kept out of the discussions on the list itself since the initial Veronic Mars debacle, mostly because I was kind of disgusted that posters claimed I was an alter ego of Kicky (PLEASE PEOPLE -- haven't you like EVER read a comic book or, say, Freud? The ultra-id NEVER has a REASONABLE superego alter ego. Kicky would be MY alter ego, if there was any alter-ego'ing afoot, asshats.)
However, I really think that it's problematic to declare that the only reasonable response in the face of art is to retreat to the purely subjective. I don't understand why the "it's all objective because I am bound by my own perspective" wouldn't apply to all attempts at criticism, whether it be books or movies or other art targeted to a relatively broad audience -- in fact, Seth specifically extends his statements to include all art.
To say that "all objectivity goes out the window" is to say that the only valid form of criticism is Reader Response theory, where only the immediate subjective experiences of the individual define the quality or lack of quality of the work.
In (further) literary terms, this would be like saying there can be no canon. (Certainly debates about what's in the canon are productive ie all DWMs or diversity, but all those debates proceed from the central assumption that there should be a canon for reasons of both practicality for teaching and genuine recognition of greatness).
There's no doubt that we are perspective-bound creatures, who are the products of our cultures and our life experiences. But to say that we cannot strive to be objective, at all, or to look to anything beyond our own existing notions is tremendously limiting.
Canons exist, on reasonably objective criteria, because to grow as students of a medium we need to be exposed to things which are generally regarded as great. Teaching becomes impossible in a world of radical subjectivity -- teachers selects their favorites (books, works, movies) and the students say "I liked it" or "I didn't." While the idea that there is a Form of Movie is clearly dead, it is outrageous to say that the only alternative is to reside completely in our own minds without ever reaching out to some sort of recognition that No Country for Old Men differs in an objective sense from The Hottie or the Nottie.
Posted by: Georgia at July 8, 2008 4:31 PM
I really don't understand the whole brouhaha over this list (or any list, for that matter). Why are everyone's knickers in such a twist? It's just a list. Calm thyselves, for serious. You don't have to agree with it, but nobody's forcing you to equally appreciate any of the entries on the list. Hate 'em if you want to, but what's the big hairy deal if someone else wants to love them? I am honestly baffled.
I really agree with Seth's point about Woody Allen movies. Every time Woody Allen shows up on something like a "best of" list, I throw up a little in my mouth, because I goddamn can't stand him and his stupid, boring, unfunny movies. His inclusion doesn't automatically make me think the listmaker is wrong, though. First off, it's asinine to presume that someone can be wrong about an opinion, and second, there is a vast difference between a list of "most important/influential" somethings and a list of "best/favourite" somethings.
In conclusion, why the hell is everyone so damn crabby? It's a list of television shows. It is not a decree ordering you to participate in someone's favourite historical torture scenarios. However, after arduous and serious thought, I have found a path to peace. Everyone do three shots in the next ten minutes. Five minutes after that, we'll all be best friends and probably be doing each other's hair and licking each other's hands for no discernible reason. Problem solved! Liquor fixes everything.
Posted by: Sarina at July 8, 2008 4:54 PM
I finally watched this last year after hearing so many people raving about the fabulousness. They were right and I can't believe I did not watch this when it aired (I had the same issue with Firefly).
Bennet - perhaps an international "favorites/best of" list or comment diversion next? My votes: Slings & Arrows, The Thick of It and Trailer Park Boys.
Posted by: Marianne at July 8, 2008 4:59 PM
"It is asinine to think that someone can be wrong about an opinion" -- aren't you, like, begging for an instance of Godwin's Law?
Scrupulously avoiding Godwin, I will say instead that:
1. The opinion that Uwe Boll makes good movies is wrong.
2. The opinion that Native Americans should keep warm by using these blankets which we took off the corpses of our most recent smallpox victims is wrong.
3. The opinion that women are not people is wrong.
4. The opinion that Tyler Perry in a fatsuit is celebrating black womanhood is wrong.
Just saying "I think" in front of what one says doesn't insulate one from criticism. In fact, if all opinions are critic-proof, I don't know why anyone would post here -- clash of competing opinions where everyone is right is as boring as a kindergarten footrace where everyone gets a blue ribbon for trying and no one wins.
Posted by: Georgia at July 8, 2008 5:07 PM
I want to dispute that white people ever gave Native Americans small-pox ridden blankets.
There is no evidence for that claim.
That is all,
Thank You
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 8, 2008 5:10 PM
Wait a second, that is not fucking all.
second, there is a vast difference between a list of "most important/influential" somethings and a list of "best/favourite" somethings.
What's funny is that you're half right; which is to say you're all wrong.
As was discussed ad nauseum and other threads "most important" and "most influential" are probably factors that could be used in determining "best."
The real conflation you make that is the entire subject of the debate is that "best" is not the same as "favorite." One goes for objective, one goes for subjective.
If I were to make a list of "Best" shows it would surely include The Sopranos, Frasier, Seinfeld, and yes Freaks and Geeks.
If I were to make a list of "Favorite" shows it would include Cash Cab, 30 Rock (which may well end up being a "best" show eventually, but it's impossible to say from our current standpoint), and Red Dwarf.
Your attempt at a distinction in fact pushes forward the very conflation at issue.
In sum, I award you one "Epic Fail"
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 8, 2008 5:15 PM
That's just your opinion.
Damn, I guess Sarina Rules means I don't have anything else to say.
My opinion is that your opinion is a dum-dum!! so there!
Posted by: Georgia at July 8, 2008 5:17 PM
Oh, and our updated statistics on the extent to which the list is chronologically imbalanced (not addressed by Seth above):
2003-2007: 5
1998-2002: 6 (3 of which are in 2002, this demonstrates the loading on one end further because it means half of the 16 selected are in the last 6 years).
1993-1997: 3
1988-1992: 2
So the argument for the time skew can be put like this:
1. 50% of the picks occur in the most recent 30% of the time period involved.
2. 69% of the picks occur in the most recent 50% of the time period involved.
3. The last five years has as many selections as the first ten years in the period combined.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 8, 2008 5:20 PM
megbon- I completely agree. The early seasons of Gilmore Girls are fanastic and clever.
I would also add that Northern Exposure should get some props around here. It's like a warm fuzzy version of Twin Peaks. Seasons 3 and 4 are brilliant and funny and the reason why I love John Corbett in everything.
Also, no Seinfeld?
Posted by: kelsy at July 8, 2008 5:33 PM
I fall into the category of, "Missed it the first time around but now engaged to a woman who thinks Freaks & Geeks is the single greatest TV show ever." We've spent several languorous weekends having F&G marathons since the DVD set came out, and quotes from the show routinely fill the air at our house ("Yes Bill, a turd."). So now I'd be miffed if it wasn't on your list!
I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment of F&G as being spot-on in capturing the specific atmosphere of American high school. Having been a geek in a Pacific Northwest high school at roughly the same time in which the show is set, I'm continually amazed at how spookily accurate the references are (getting stoned at laser light shows, for crying out loud).
So whatever happened to Busy Philipps? She was spectacular on that show. Guess I gotta hit the Google now...
Posted by: Grover at July 8, 2008 5:41 PM
Busy Phillips (like most of the Freaks and Geeks) showed up on a couple episodes of undeclared. Although she was into Seth Rogen at the time which is a truly weird sight if you've seen Freaks and Geeks.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 8, 2008 5:51 PM
Sarina,
Your advice is well-founded and being adhered to even as I type this.
Being such, it's allowed me to post what I think everyone has been breathlessly anticipating from me for, well, quite longer than you'd hoped, I'm sure. Please put on your sunscreen & shades for my next totally enlightening statement, sure to spark controversy and hostility amongst all of my fellow Pajibanites:
I only saw bits of two episodes of Freaks And Geekswhen it first aired, had no idea it had become such a classic, and is now on my Netflix queueueuaux list, (presumably) behind the bitch who ordered it before I had a chance to log on, thankuverymuch. As so many other reviews on this site has done, it's encouraged me to check out the series I would have overlooked otherwise, only to find just how much I've been missing out.
(And please tell me, anyone, is 'Carnivale' worth renting?)
That being said, and having said so being said as of stated saidness, and thus so stated, I bid you all a good, er, late afternoon. 'Twould seem that following Sarina's example will ceeertainly not leave me awake for the rest of tonight, and an early evening may quash any side-effects I might otherwise suffer come the new day.
As of now, I'm simply glad that Tuesday's over with, and I'm grateful going to bed knowing that I have a wonderful new & undiscovered series to see.
There's so very little else to look forward to these days, other than always excellent Pajiba recommendations/revelations/great debates and comments to be found on this site, am I right?!!?? [Holla!! the white boy said pathetically]
Off to bed in a bit folks, right after the latest Andy Griffith show, or sooner if its a later season with Howard and Emmett the Fix-It Guy, all in high-falutin' color that Mayberry didn't need in the first place-- oh, let go of me, son, I'm comin'!
Posted by: TMax at July 8, 2008 6:02 PM
I've loved the series here (the 20 best seasons, not Freaks and Geeks, a show I haven't yet viewed). But I gotta get my one bitch moment: can't believe you guys missed Season Two of Alias, the best season of what I think is one of the greatest shows ever.
But that's that. No Best Of list can be complete and satisfy everyone. Still, great choices for this series, Pajiba. Well done.
And I guess there's more than one Ben who posts here? The other one hates Harry Potter, I gather? Well, I guess I'll switch my name here, just to avoid confusion. And for the record, I think Harry Potter is a pretty damn good children's book series, but not great literature. Still, I was clamoring for my copy of Book 7 to arrive from Amazon a year ago.
Posted by: whatBENwatches at July 8, 2008 6:42 PM
Please don't attack me, but does this show start off kind of, okay really, slow? I gave the first two or three episodes a try and it, well, wasn't spectacular. Maybe I just have the preconcieved notion that no show is better than Arrested Development. I'm willing to give it another try!!
Posted by: Tara at July 8, 2008 6:44 PM
Tara: Although I liked it enough to keep watching from the beginning, I will say that, in retrospect, the beginning episodes are not as good as the later ones (true of almost every show though). The geeks get more fully developed slightly later in the show, and I found their storylines more touching/funny than Lindsay's identity crisis.
Posted by: Georgia at July 8, 2008 6:55 PM
Tara- Its funny that you say that because I rented and watched seasons 1-3 of Arrested before I started on F&G too and it took me a while to get into it. AD is just so good and every episode is laugh out loud funny. Stick with F&G though. You'll start to appreciate it.
Posted by: Handel at July 8, 2008 6:58 PM
Oddly enough, I tried to watch Arrested Development but it was too awkward and depressing to be outweighed by the funny (which it also is) and I gave it up. Go figure.
Posted by: Jay at July 8, 2008 7:25 PM
So how many is this one? Are you guys going to rank them afterwards so people can scream even more?
Also - when's the "Always Sunny" ? Or are we just going to say "There are no words. There is 'Always Sunny' and then everything else" and not even bother? Chickens
Posted by: Brian at July 8, 2008 9:36 PM
Just counted on the Guides page. This is 16 assuming Arrested was the 1st
Posted by: Brian at July 8, 2008 9:47 PM
TMax - I liked Carnivale. I thought it was cool and creepy and kinda dirty. But, it's not great TV. The narrative drags like a motherfucker. But it's cool to look at and will keep you wondering what happens next. And Clancy Brown is awesome. I vote "yea" on the "is it worth it."
Posted by: megbon at July 8, 2008 9:59 PM
Yes, yes...1000 times yes. This is a great show in every aspect. The best way to watch it (like most great shows) is to marathon it. It's a journey at the end of which the watcher is truly sad...in a good way.
Posted by: RS at July 8, 2008 10:21 PM
Can we do a list of the best movies made by a Nebbish Jew? It probably wouldn't have a wide appeal but I would greatly appreciate it?
Posted by: Rex at July 8, 2008 10:41 PM
Marple Newtown Senior High, holla! I graduated Upper Darby - without getting stabbed or pregnant.
I think one of the reasons Lindsay is less compelling than the others is that her story arc is a really common one on TV and in movies. It's not any less realistic or poignant necessarily (especially in the hands of the immensely talented F&G crew) but it feels like it's been done. However, it's one that's a little more dramatic and plays better as entertainment. Sam's is slower, more subtle - the sort of day-to-day transition that goes unnoticed until years later. His story feels fresher and touches the people who just seemed to constantly flounder, rather than those who, like Lindsay, managed to struggle ashore every once in awhile.
Posted by: Geetch at July 8, 2008 11:46 PM
hey it's seth rogen, not seth rogan. and neal's dad had the affair not bill's. just pointing it out for you, man...
Posted by: ph at July 9, 2008 1:31 AM
I only checked this out after reading your previous review, so a big thank you to Pajiba for gifting me with one of my favourite TV shows, ever.
Everything in this is note perfect including, surprisingly, James Franco who I'd always thought sucked balls. I even had to go back and reappraise the Spidey films after watching this.
I happened to develop quite a big Nick crush whilst watching and one of my favourite scenes, and yet also incredibly painful to watch, is his serenading of Lindsay. Just perfect.
Oh, and Bill Haverchuck is MY boyfriend.
Posted by: Lisa S at July 9, 2008 3:19 AM
Haven't we done this before.
Posted by: dandy at July 9, 2008 4:50 AM
Is that the only expression Seth Rogen has?
Posted by: samantha t at July 9, 2008 7:22 AM
First, I will cut a bitch over Bill Haverchuck. He is MINE. Anybody here ever fight a bald girl? No hair clearly gives me the advantage since I am lacking the goods to enable the standard first method of attack in any girl fight-hair pulling.
Second: Shit on a brick people. I come here to post a few less-than-serious thoughts on the review or subject matter, enjoy some banter, read hilarious other posts, blah, blah.
What's with the Critical Theory stuff? I see a lot of opinions here, witty banter, utter goofiness, peppered with a few old-fashioned opinion brawls. But what I'm reading looks all the world like a treatment for someone's honor thesis. While I don't debate someone's right to expound on their erudite opinions, I want to know what people do for a living (or even do all day) that allows them the time to ruminate and write these posts. Geez, I'm in the bleedin' hospital and I don't want to devote that much of my free time (and I got it in spades here) to hanging here-no offense.
Back to the list: We got into Freaks and Geeks a few episodes before NBC pulled the plug. We were pretty sure we had afflicted it with The Pink Family Television Curse, like so many other great shows that we have the misfortunate of enjoying before it's cut down by network stiffs before its time. Glad to see this show, as well as Twin Peaks, included since they weren't commercial successes but were damn good shows.
Another tribute to the skill of the supporting actors on the show, we recently caught a L&O episode where the actor who played Mrs. Weir appeared as a prosecuting attorney. Not only was she unrecognizable in here appearance, but her performance was miles away from what she did on F&G. Props to Mr. Pink who spotted her.
If I had my druthers, I'd also include the aforementioned Farscape which was one of the most innovative sci-fi shows in recent years. Also, Dead Like Me, another really great sci-fi-ish show that got cancelled just as it was really starting to hit its stride. Plus, it had Mandy Patankin! How about mini-series? Because I would totally throw in my vote for Band of Brothers. I'd also give my vote to the early seasons of the Cosby Show but you guys are starting the list a few years after some of the best stuff on the show.
Okay, now I'm a hypocrite. This post has become as long as the far more intelligent discourse that's been popping up. Breakfast is over; time to wander the halls.
Posted by: Alabamapink at July 9, 2008 9:09 AM
whatBENwatches, I was trying to debate which season of Alias would make my personal best seasons list. The pilot is one of the best pilots I think ever, but I am still mad at the way season 2 ended and of course, led us to the COW, Rambaldi stupidity, and the whole stupid storyline with COW and his hotness, Sarky.
Pink, I still miss Dead Like Me. I was very unhappy when it went away. If we start talking mini-series, Band of Brothers is an obvious entry. You do know that there is a follow-up of sorts that will focus on the Pacific theater of WWII. The same people are behind it as Band of Brothers, but of course, all new, mostly unheard of cast.
Posted by: Melody at July 9, 2008 10:04 AM
I second the "watch Carnivale" opinion. The first season is really slow and each episode produces a "What the FUCK?" response, but you keep watching because you want to know what the hell is going on. It all starts coming together in the second season. I think if there had been a third season, it would have been in the running for this list. And Clancy Brown is just fun to watch.
Posted by: Three-nineteen at July 9, 2008 11:06 AM