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Vote Or Die


Swing Vote / John Williams

Film Reviews | August 2, 2008 | Comments (98)


The debacle of the 2000 presidential election taught us, if anything, that it’s impossible for one vote to count. When more than 100 million votes are cast, it can be difficult to figure them out on the level of several thousand, much less one particular person’s preference. Still, one of our most stubborn national pieties is that your vote could be the deciding vote, as if we were thirteen people conducting a PTA meeting at the local elementary school.

Well, fine. Movies aren’t the place we go for stark realism, anyway. Ask Batman. So while some critics have snidely dismissed the premise of Swing Vote — that a presidential election hinges on the vote of one man in Texico, New Mexico — I’m perfectly willing to accept it as the plot for a fable. It’s most of everything else in the movie that stinks.

Kevin Costner plays Bud Johnson, a single father living in a trailer with his young daughter, Molly (Madeline Carroll). Bud works (when he works) packing eggs, but mostly he’s an alcoholic, a proudly uninformed citizen, and an incapable father. (Ever since Waterworld, Costner’s career has been the object of scorn, and it’s true that Bud is another character he could — and maybe does — play in his sleep. But his natural, goofy charm saves the character from being completely unsympathetic.) Molly is, miraculously, a devoted student who parents Bud ten times more than he returns the favor, and who lectures him on the importance of his civic duties as he fights a hangover to drive her to school. When Bud fails to meet Molly at the polls on voting day, as he promised, she attempts to vote for him. What happens next is, yes, contrived, but given the contrivance needed it could be worse.

Once officials pinpoint whose re-vote will determine the outcome, incumbent Republican president Andrew Boone (Kelsey Grammer) and Democratic nominee Donald Greenleaf (Dennis Hopper) camp out in Texico and stage campaigns tailored entirely to Bud.

Swing Vote is painfully unfunny. One Democratic operative calls an attack a “right-wing blog-o-smear.” When Bud drunkenly realizes that he left Molly waiting for him at the polls, he runs outside and bangs his head on a sign that reads, “Vote Today.” Father and daughter later exchange these lines: “I’ve been thinking.” “How refreshing.” These clunkers could be excused if Swing Vote was aimed at children, but the question of its intended audience is one of its greatest mysteries. Its thought process mostly occurs on the level of (dumb) children, but there’s enough coarse language and interest in political behavior to convince us that it’s speaking to adults. (There’s also a well executed but brutal scene in which Molly tracks down her estranged mother, played by Mare Winningham.)

On paper, Swing Vote would appear to have no hope. On screen, it’s not much different. Yet, some buried vein of subtlety keeps it from becoming a total disaster. There’s a way in which the movie uses the platitude of Every Vote Counts to shoot holes in the platitude and get at a larger, more community-minded truth. When President Boone learns that Bud’s favorite fishing spot is in danger, he cancels its destruction, which he had promised corporate donors, and gives it protected status instead. When Greenleaf hears that Bud may be pro-life (the movie later muddles the truth of Bud’s opinion, to keep him from alienating either potential half of its audience), he ditches his pro-choice stance and makes a commercial in which happy children vanish from a playground.

As the candidates kiss up to Bud, we (and they) see how ridiculous and capricious a system would be that so strictly honored voters on an individual level, and how politicians would have to be even more flexible (unprincipled) than they are now in order to succeed in that system. That large numbers of votes are better than one is the point for both candidates and their supporters, after all.

Bud learns that while he’s been considering how to vote, thousands of Americans have written to him about their worries. So as Molly and others help him prepare questions for the candidates in a final televised debate, he realizes that what’s important is not him, but the concerns of everyone else in the country, everyone he now clearly represents. That’s not a bad lesson. Costner’s final speech, a preamble to the debate, is given in silly circumstances, against a silly-looking backdrop, but I’ll be damned if he didn’t put a lump in my throat. If the rest of the movie had done the same, or elicited a hearty laugh or two, I might recommend it. As it is, Swing Vote is an effort with its heart in the right place and its brain somewhere else entirely.

John Williams lives in Brooklyn. He’s a freelance writer. He blogs at A Special Way of Being Afraid.


Mummy III | Blurb Whore Edition



Comments

I suppose I could drag myself and some friends to this if I didn't already have plans searching the internet about that bus beheading. Who needs this movie when reality is so much more entertaining and horrifying?

Posted by: popejenn at August 2, 2008 8:31 PM

Meh.

Posted by: Jaci at August 2, 2008 9:33 PM

BTW, John, I may or may not have rigged a carbomb for your ride home. Don't cut the blue wire.

Posted by: Jaci at August 2, 2008 9:37 PM

Oh look, Hollywood made another stupid movie with good intentions. oooh...shiny...

Posted by: the_wakeful at August 2, 2008 9:46 PM

I am shocked this movie tanked, I was so sure after his breakthrough performance in "Mr. Brooks" Costner would be on his way to an Oscar, easily.

Posted by: Pookie at August 2, 2008 9:47 PM

The very premise of this movie makes me physically ill just reading about it, as if the preamble must include the erroneous fact that any single one of our votes counted in 2000 or 2004.

To make a comedy about one undecided voter, during this current political climate, is a bitch-slap in the face to any American who actually thought their vote counted in the last two elections, and is just too naive and ridiculous to accept at this point in time.

God, Kevin Costner has absolutely no scruples left when it comes to his acting choices this last, what, 15-20 years??

Fuck him and anyone else who can accept the concept that every single vote is indeed counted, when the Electoral College and its morality-depleted "Delegation" forces have alread demonstrated, time and again, that our singular votes don't add up to dick.

Sorry everyone, I'm just not ready for a "political" comedy in the dead heat of this insufferable summer, whilst I'm already pissed enough at the world at large to ingest this toxic bullshit without reprimand or just flinging a high "fuck you" gesture at this pathetic administration as a whole.

I find no humor to be mined from the currently dismal shape our country is in, regardless of how much any one ignoramus wants to accept it as "just poking fun" at our voting process, when we all know it just ain't so.

This current attempt will only be the latest failure to horribly sink into the depths of the 'movies-that-should-never-have-been-made' category.

Sorry, don't mean to be so negative on a Saturday night, but this review just brought out the rarely-seen angry alcoholic in me, and I no longer care about any point this film might be trying to make. Humor, of any kind, just doesn't cut it in this insane political world anymore - I'll start laughing when Bush, Cheney & Co. are held criminally accountable for the bullshit they've laid on us the last 7-plus years. 'Til then, keep your useless political lampoons to yourself, ya fuckin Hollyweirdos- you don't shout loud enough to speak for the rest of us.

***being dragged away sweating and exhausted but still wearing my cape***

Thanks for giving me an issue to ramble drunkenly about tonight, Philip; God knows I have no other life to speak of.

Posted by: TMax at August 2, 2008 9:54 PM

Sorry, should have said John; too busy spell-checking to actually remember a name for Christ's sake

Posted by: TMax at August 2, 2008 10:01 PM

A bus beheading, you say? I'll be heading to a six flags in a few days where someone was beheaded by Batman. The ride, not the man. And even more horrifying (for some reason) was the girl on another ride who had her feet amputated off because a wire came loose, wrapped around her legs, and ripped off her feet.

IN summation, I'd rather be dead than an amputee.

Posted by: noah at August 2, 2008 10:04 PM

TMax, unfortunately your views are somewhat typical of a liberal in distress. I think Kevin Bacon's character Willie O'Keefe in "JFK" said it perfectly when he said " you don't know nothing, because you never been fucked in the ass."

Posted by: Pookie at August 2, 2008 10:13 PM

....but noah, if you're dead, you won't be able to fuck.

Posted by: Pookie at August 2, 2008 10:16 PM

Yup, a beheading (with a spritz of cannibalism to spice things up) happened outside of my city 2 days ago.
I've not been to a Six Flags park for several years. Here`s hoping you have a good experience or die a quick and painless death by roller coaster, Noah. It`d probably be less of a painful way to go than watching Swing Vote!

Posted by: popejenn at August 2, 2008 10:16 PM

Head, behead, head, behead, I choose head.

Posted by: Pookie at August 2, 2008 10:35 PM

It's best just to let these kinds of movies go by--they're not really worth even bitching about. So useless.

Posted by: Kevin Longrie at August 2, 2008 10:40 PM

I don't mean to be insensitive, but I think that the guy who cut the other guy's head off was being a little over dramatic.

Posted by: Pookie at August 2, 2008 10:46 PM

My mom was vaguely hopeful about this because she has an unfounded fondness of Kevin Costner (See also: Aidan Quinn, Michael Madsen, and Jeff Goldblum). I'll be forced to disappoint her by telling her how insulting, and just downright bad it turned out to be.

She'll probably rent it anyway and call me to tell me how terrible it was a la 27 Dresses.

On a side note, I know people who were still in line to vote in Florida when the state was called for Bush in 2004. The polling place at my University (11,000 students) had 2 machines, people waited for untold hours. Every polling place in the city had lines out the door both the day of the election and the days before. I will never believe the numbers they gave for Florida for that election, Cubans don't love W that much.

Posted by: Genny (also Rusty) at August 2, 2008 10:59 PM

Just a smidge, Pookie. Just a smidge.

Posted by: Andre at August 2, 2008 11:00 PM

Genny, I didn't know they had a University of Phoenix in Florida.

Posted by: pookie at August 2, 2008 11:08 PM

Aw man, I can see it now in big letters:
FRANK BOOTH '08!
"He's Got an Ear for What His People Need"
And at his inauguration part, we're drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon! Forget Heineken!
And somehow, Frank Booth makes for a better President then say, Dubya. Technically speaking, I wouldn't be so sure, but you know what I mean. That alone is scarier than 100 million voters.

Posted by: Kamikaze Feminist at August 2, 2008 11:12 PM

Toss Costner on the stack with Cruise and Murphy of guys who's movies I will not pay money to see. But no matter who much of a douche he has become, I can still watch Bull Durham and completely forget it's him.

Posted by: EricD at August 3, 2008 12:11 AM

Fact: Jack Bauer's vote not only counts, he can overrule the entire electoral system. And win Connect Four in three steps.

Posted by: Kash at August 3, 2008 12:20 AM

Gosh, Pookie, is that jealousy I detect? Not only does the University of Phoenix have branches in Florida, there are 4 in the greater Miami area alone. Unfortunately for these fine institutes of higher learning, I actually chose to attend the University of Miami.

How's that GED coming?


And TMax, I appreciate your attempt at political commentary and intelligent discourse. Unfortunately, anytime I begin to contemplate our country's voting system and how politics works these days, I have to drink the whole bottle of gin and I'd really rather not tonight.

Posted by: Genny (also Rusty) at August 3, 2008 1:43 AM

I tend to agree with George Carlin - if honesty, actual and total, were ever injected into our political process the entire edifice of our society would come crashing down on our heads.

Okay, rant over. That was quick, wasn't it?

Back to the movie. Ouch, ouch, ouch. To steal a line from MST3K, the best analogy to this movie would be biting down on a double-edged razor blade. I will refrain from torturing myself in this manner and instead eat a few ounces of dark chocolate M&Ms and sample the vanilla vodka / Amaretto drink I read about in an earlier Boozehound post.

Posted by: The Wanderer at August 3, 2008 8:15 AM

Jeez, have the spambots all slipped into illiteracy? Usually they are just annoying, but now they don't make sense at all.

Posted by: rrl260 at August 3, 2008 10:45 AM

I was just joking Genny, I used to live in Coral Gables. I'm well aware of UM, great school.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 11:41 AM

I know you most likely aren't being purposely offensive but I have to comment anyway. It feels a little like a bad dream coming on here right now because I know Tim Mclean, the boy who was beheaded in Manitoba that you're all joking about. For days I've been crying and avoiding the newspapers and television so I didn't have to hear about it anymore. Finally I convinced myself to go to a movie and I read this site all the time (my favorite actually)so I thought I'd come on here and see what came out this week and what all of you thought was worth seeing. I just never thought in a million years that Tim's beheading would be a subject for comedy on this website. Maybe I'm being uptight but I'm honestly incredibly sad after reading all of that. Anyway, I don't even know why I felt the need to comment, I'm just sort of in shock I guess.

Posted by: AnneFromCanada at August 3, 2008 12:07 PM

"...Molly tracks down her estranged mother, played by Mare Winningham...."

There's a blast from the past, I thought she was dead.

And what can be said about this thing? It's Costner doing his Joe Schlubb shtick, give him a bat and a glove and he's the stock Costner baseball guy charater.

This one goes in the: will watch when on TBS pile.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at August 3, 2008 12:11 PM

AnneFromCanada -- I don't think you're being uptight. I really don't understand how anyone can think it's a remotely funny situation. An innocent man being murdered by someone who was deeply mentally ill but did not get treatment is just sad and horrific all around. People and the media have always had short-lived fascinations with these kind of events, but it seems that now people go beyond that to find them funny. I'm very sorry for your loss.

Posted by: Crinn at August 3, 2008 1:06 PM

I actually purposely posted the above comments about the beheading, and if you took them as offensive I can't help that, nor will I apologize/recant. I still would like to re-itterate that reality is MUCH more "entertaining and horrifying" than movies ever could be...especially Swing Vote.

I feel bad for the victim of the bus-killer, and also the victims that unknowingly will watch another Kevin Costner vaginal fart.

Posted by: popejenn at August 3, 2008 1:14 PM

Yes, it's Six Flags Over Georgia that experienced said hijinks. Come on down! (It wasn't Batman's fault though. Do not stand near rollercoasters, people.)

As for Coral Gables I still kinda miss Venetian Pool, except for the part where you lift yourself out and scrape your torso over coral.

Use the steps, really.

You can have Vizcaya though. What was I doing there as a seven year old? It wouldn't even impress me now. Guess that's the price for going to science museum/planetarium.

Oh and I really only have time for Eliot Ness. I think that's the latest Costner movie I've seen all the way through, and more than once (though Joe Pesci's "JFK" wig makes everything and everyone better so that one's okay too).

Posted by: Jay at August 3, 2008 2:06 PM

The fact that you felt the need to come out swinging against a woman who was not attacking you and who has just experienced such a tragedy shows a level of self absorption that you rarely see out there. Oh, and including the phrase 'vaginal fart' in a post you intend to be read by someone who's friend's head was just cut off, very class move. I believe you are the most hideous person I've encountered on the internet today popejenn! Yay for you!

Posted by: whycareaboutothers? at August 3, 2008 2:09 PM

AnneFromCanada, I'm very sorry for your loss also. That must be extremely upsetting and hard to cope with.

"I actually purposely posted the above comments about the beheading, and if you took them as offensive I can't help that, nor will I apologize/recant."

That's so sensitive and understanding. Wow. I feel so warm inside. Jesus some people are cold. And so proud of it.

Posted by: Loob at August 3, 2008 2:14 PM

"....including the phrase 'vaginal fart' in a post you intend to be read by someone who's friend's head was just cut off, very class move..."

----------------------------------------------

I think we can pretty much put this thread in the "lost" pile.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at August 3, 2008 2:17 PM

bus-killer? I don't think that would be hyphenated. I'm reasonably sure the guy didn't kill a bus.

Posted by: viciousnessOfCommentAside at August 3, 2008 2:37 PM

AnneFromCanada, I too am sorry for your loss - he sounds like a real class act and very few of us can likely understand what you're going through. Best wishes here, and my sincere condolences.

popejenn, your mother must be so proud of you right now. If you can't understand how far over the line you are, and inexplicably proud of it, I'm going to have to ask that you return your Human Race Membership card. It's one thing to be irreverantly funny (or not, as was actually the case), it's another to be a deliberately insensitive, complete twat in someone else's tragedy. Kindly learn your lesson and go volunteer in a hospital or something.

I get that the perpetrator's quite likely very mentally ill. Yet somehow I'm rather disappointed he's still alive - is this abnormal?

Posted by: lordhelmet at August 3, 2008 3:04 PM

sat·ire
[sat-ahyuhr]
-noun
1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.
[Origin: 1500-10; L satira, var. of satura medley, perh. fem. deriv. of satur sated (see saturate)]

Posted by: HCE at August 3, 2008 3:04 PM

AnneFromCanada, I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm from the East, and it's such a shock to imagine such a thing can happen in our generally peaceful little country, in particular to someone who was, by so many accounts, such a nice guy. My condolences.

It's such a sensational, bizarre crime that it must almost be expected that many will treat it as matter for dark humour. However, hearing comments like yours really drives it home that this is a real and horrific thing that happened to a real person, rather than just a sick punchline--so, thank you for sharing, and my thoughts are with you.

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 3, 2008 3:15 PM

This is a movie review site for Bitchy People, so please excuse the hell out of all of use for making a joke about some schmuck that got his dome split. We are not the sympathetic type, let me rephrase that, "I'm not the sympathetic type" not unless the shit happened to someone I know. When this story first broke, the first thing I did was run to pajiba, because I know that some motherfucker was going to crack wise about this ghastly event.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 3:35 PM

Holy SHIT! B-Slim is back! I've missed you, man. Seriously.

I'm not going to comment on beheadings. I don't think anyone should, really. Or amputations. Some things are just, well, not funny.

But my father does only have one leg, and the stump (because the operation was fucked the first time around) looks like the end of hotdog. None of us kids can really stand to eat hotdogs or sausages. Not sure if that's funny. Just strange I guess.

Welcome back, B-Slim.

Posted by: Estelle at August 3, 2008 3:43 PM

I was hoping this was going to be based on a short story by Issac Asimov (the name escapes me right now). oh well.

Posted by: Deirdre at August 3, 2008 3:54 PM

I dated this girl who was a double amputee, she lost both her arms. It was hard for her to keep me in her mouth, god bless her.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 4:09 PM

We are not the sympathetic type, let me rephrase that, "I'm not the sympathetic type" not unless the shit happened to someone I know.

Pooks, aren't you just the kindest soul. Guess what - it happened to someone Anne knows, so have a heart. Or take your meds. Or go cut yourself and write some emo poetry about suffering and how misunderstood you are. Or just go take a header off a bridge so we can all laugh. Do you want us callously cracking wise about your impending demise? Hell, while you're at it, why not start making fun of Bama and her illness and treatment? If you're going to be such a prick, why go halfway? Spill all your vileness, holding nothing back, or be decent, hold it in, and STFU when real life inflicts suffering.

I dated this girl who was a double amputee, she lost both her arms. It was hard for her to keep me in her mouth, god bless her.

It was probably harder for her not to just bite if off and get it over with. You know, after having been in your company long enough for you to get partly hard. I'm amazed she was still awake.

Posted by: lordhelmet at August 3, 2008 4:17 PM

To answer those few above who did not read my other post with a calm heart nor clear head:

1-Yes, my mother IS proud of me.
2-I wrote "I feel bad for the victim". So I do still carry a card as a member of the human race.
3-Has anyone ever dealt with personal tragedy and come out dealing with all situations differently? I feel like I identify more with Pookie than most people.
4-Maybe I do have a cold heart, but whatever helps get people through the day.

Again, I will not recant or apologize. I feel bad, but I will not compromise who I am and what I've said.

Posted by: popejenn at August 3, 2008 4:35 PM

lord helmet, I apologize for my feeble attempt at trying to be funny. I guess I'm the first person in the history of the world that made a joke about a horrible death. I do have empathy for the young lady that lost her dear friend. I'm sure my friends would sit around and mourn me if my head got cut off on a Greyhound bus after they stopped shitting on themselves with laughter about pookie and his fucked up demise. Now as far as the amputee comment goes, you can't tell me that shit wasn't funny.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 4:38 PM

Ye godtopi, since when is apologizing "compromising who one is"? Isn't it, more to the point, expressing regret for (inadvertently, in this case) making another person feel bad?

None of my business, I know. Sorry. I'm just a little exasperated.

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 3, 2008 4:41 PM

Well said, meaux.

Posted by: lordhelmet at August 3, 2008 4:49 PM

I can't figure out how detached from reality you would have to be to find a tragic decapitation of a stranger funny.

I don't understand why Pookie and popejenn cannot simply abstain from commenting on it further if they are truly sorry for it happening.

Even if they apparently find it so inexplicably hilarious, do we need to know that?

Posted by: What the hell man? at August 3, 2008 4:52 PM

Isn't it interest that L'helmet asked that I show sympathy for the friends of the victim but he has no problem talking about my sexual problems and my lack of having hard man meat.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 5:07 PM

Thanks, my helmeted friend--right back at you (although, gosh, you were awfully hard on poor Pookster and his erectile dysfunction problems). *snicker*
So, is everyone else enjoying a long weekend? Or is this just in my fair province?

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 3, 2008 5:16 PM

See that's what I'm talking about, a guy has a problem in the pants department and everybody wants to break balls. But do you see me crying cause my Johnson don't fully stand at attention? No, you don't, cause I can roll with the punches.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 5:31 PM

So, is everyone else enjoying a long weekend?

No, I'm writing this at work, goddammit!!

Still, Labor Day timed itself well so I'll have a four day weekend then.

Maybe it'll even be a little less hot then.


Maybe.

Posted by: Jay at August 3, 2008 5:36 PM

Costner put over 20 million dollars of his own money behind this film. That's the funniest thing about this movie.

Posted by: RoboPanda at August 3, 2008 5:44 PM

As one of a group of liberal bloggers who reecived an invitation to a dinner & movie screening of this, I declined. My friend skippy the bush kangaroo put it best:

the idea that a movie is making a comedy out of a contested election and expects progressives to come watch it is rather like saying "hey, remember that terrible car crash that killed your mom and dad? we've made the feel good film of the year about it!"

Posted by: Maryscott O'Connor at August 3, 2008 5:45 PM

...you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

Posted by: NeverWrestleWithAPig... at August 3, 2008 5:48 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Godtopus looks like Kodos and Kang?

Posted by: Observation...Discuss.... at August 3, 2008 5:48 PM

Damn, lotta posting going on all of a sudden in the last five minutes. It would have been more obvious where this was directed (popojennookie) had it landed four or five posts up...

Posted by: NeverWrestleWithAPig... at August 3, 2008 5:53 PM

O'Connor trust me they only edit certain comments. Some of my best work gets edited out all the time.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 5:53 PM

Sorry to hear it, Jay--if it makes you feel better, I'll be lazy enough for both of us tomorrow!

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 3, 2008 5:56 PM

"...you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it."

NeverWrestleWithAPig


How original, Sir you are on par with some of histories greatest thinkers.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 6:06 PM

Referring back to my 9:54pm epistle last night, I must first chastise myself for the term "erroneous fact" - that's a contradiction in terms, ain't it? Looks so stupid to my sober self now. I never pretended to be an expert at the human language, although I've been on a constant quest to learn it since I first found out about it, and will continue to be only learning this beautiful language for the rest of my life. That's why I'm a commenter, not a reviewer, and also why I don't know when to end a paragraph...

So, ahemm-mmhh, I was going to go into explaining shit and all, so here's my best effort, since I was finally saturated enough to check back on this thread without fearing a panic attack.

Pookie, first, let me say you were on fire the night of B-Slim's return, you had me laughing my ass off! You were in fine form; however, responding to your 4:41 post: I don't protest at all to being "typical," in your assessment, of my overall disgust with the administration we've had these past blah blah- and I really loved your quoting Kevin Bacon from JFK: he was about my favorite actor in a movie I've watched multiple times. As long as you don't challenge my hair-trigger opinion, I'll extend you the same courtesy;

I've been working real hard on my 'PAUL' philosophy (Patience, Acceptance, Understanding, Less anal) that I just adapted about 2 weeks ago to help me deal with this insidious summer heat, and feel the need to apologize to Rusty(Genny) for attempting to harsh her weekend buzz.

Coming up on this particular review of a film starring an actor I particularly hate on a particular subject that I'm particularly raw to through my very last fucking nerve and having to be reminded of 4-5,000 potential fine, young, necessary human beings (many of whom could have been potential Pajibans) whose opinion will never be heard on this or any other movie since they're dead from a stupid war that's got me all fucked-up angry about it in the first place-- eeeexxxxxhhhaaalllle
just by reading this, which is my own fault and definitely not a call for censorship of any kind just because of thin skins like mine; hell, I was just out of line and will try to be more coherent in the future.

Totally off topic for MO: I gratefully accept your invite to catch a double-feature of 'IM' and 'TDK' on DVD, on your couch, or better yet my own recliner, when the magic time arrives, and the presence of your husband will assure me that I won't have to fend off your pawing of my tight, masculine body that night while I'm trying to concentrate on the movies if you don't mind. I'll have plenty of the vino & I'll even highjack some real artery-clogging theater popcorn we can all enjoy on my way there, only to all regret our choice later.

Posted by: TMax at August 3, 2008 6:12 PM

Well said TMax, I was a political Science major in college so I know all about this administrations gang rape of the constitution and it's current DP of Obama. But damn you TMax for making me feel like an even bigger ass than I already am. I shall now sit back and embrace your musing on the current political landscape.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 6:27 PM

I find it interesting to ponder whether people would have reacted badly to popejenn's initial comment (I'm not even getting into the later ones) if Anne hadn't posted here to say that she knew the man in question personally. Certainly, no one seemed to blink before it, and in fact it spun into a mildly diverting tangent about other cases of beheading and limb loss. As a whole, it's a distasteful topic and I personally didn't find it particularly amusing, but I sincerely doubt that it's the most appalling series of jokes that have ever been made in a Pajiba comment thread. So is it acceptable to make the jokes until someone personally connected reads them? Or should they just not be made at all? And where do we draw the line on something like that - most good jokes will be offensive to someone on some level, so how neutered should we be? I dunno - I'm not trying to be argumentative or aggressive, but I do think it's worth looking past the initial reaction of "Oh shit, we just offended someone who's right there, ergo the jokes should never have been made" to wonder if we'd have cared otherwise.

That said, AnnefromCanada, I'm sorry for your loss, and I hope that you weren't too hurt by any of the comments above, or anything in this one.

Posted by: Shay at August 3, 2008 6:40 PM

I think I can lighten the mood a little bit. I once had a Chinese girl for a girl friend her name was young ho.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 6:50 PM

Costner put over 20 million dollars of his own money behind this film. That's the funniest thing about this movie.

HA! That's a great insight, RoboPanda. Then again, you always say really awesome things and you smell good, too. Do you like Italian food?

Posted by: jM at August 3, 2008 6:55 PM

Sounds like a plan, TMax--I promise that my husband will keep me on my best behaviour, despite your masculine wiles. You may want to keep some pepper spray on hand in case he has to take a bathroom break or something.

*wink, wink*

To Observation...Discuss...., not bad. But have you seen The Beast With a Billion Backs, the new Futurama movie? Well, if that ain't animation's answer to Godtopus, I don't know what is!

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 3, 2008 7:07 PM

"...I sincerely doubt that it's the most appalling series of jokes that have ever been made in a Pajiba comment thread...."
Posted by: Shay at August 3, 2008 6:40 PM


Mmmmm I believe that would be the Skank Cancer thread, if I'm not mistaken it spilled over onto another thread that was meant to make up for the first one and let's just say...uh it went, worse.

Aaaah Pajibans .... weird, mysterious creatures...

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at August 3, 2008 7:13 PM

When the hell did BSlim get back? Holy crap. I thought you got died.

Anne, I'm sorry for your loss, and we should should be more sensitive about it. I think that some of us are just so shocked at that kind of brutality happening in real life that we revert back to our defense mechanisms of being witty cock-wrinkles that sit back and make fun of things that aren't actually funny to make it seem less real. I know I've done that shit in the past. And popejohn, people are just asking you to apologize for being insensitive, not recant all your beliefs and change who you are. If someone you knew died of lung cancer, would you whip out a smoke at their funeral and ask her mother for a light? No. You'd be sensitive about it. That's all we're asking. Sensitivity.

Posted by: Jaci at August 3, 2008 7:16 PM

Nope BSlim, not even close when TP does a movie the board heats up and goes crazy.

Posted by: Pookie at August 3, 2008 7:17 PM

"So as Molly and others help him prepare questions for the candidates in a final televised debate, he realizes that what's important is not him, but the concerns of everyone else in the country, everyone he now clearly represents. That's not a bad lesson."

That right there COULD have saved the movie, but it sounds like it's too little, too late.

Yes, everyone's vote should count. But what pisses me off about the attitude behind what seems to be 98% of the running time of this flick is that *I'M* the only damn person who counts. That attitude has been sinking us for quite a while now.

It never fails to stun me to my very core when I hear someone blithely state that they aren't concerned about ___________ (enter big issue in the blank) because THEY'RE fine. eg: Just got done having a depressing conversation with a woman who fits that description exactly. Yeah, times are tough, but SHE'S fine, so what the hell does she care? Yeah, people are dying for a lack of decent medical care that doesn't require a money tree in the backyard, but her coverage is ok (for now) and she has no health problems (again, for now) so what the fuck does SHE care? And hell, as of right now, she can still afford to fill up her Suburban once a week, everyone else's problems paying for gas aren't hers.

It's that kinda let everyone else's cheese flap in the wind attitude that just slays me. Every time. And this movie seemed to reinforce that, as if it needed any reinforcing. I know you couldn't do an entire movie around "hey let's think about everyone for once" without it being sort of preachy and sucky, but it sounds like it wouldn't be much worse than what was actually produced and committed to film, eh?

Posted by: Anastasia at August 3, 2008 7:39 PM

As penance for my insensitivity (or was it just karma being a bitch?) my father insisted we go to Swing Vote for his birthday.

I hope you all feel I got my come-uppance. If not, please feel free to smoke at my funeral and make inappropriate comments to my husband and children. Since I've lived with them and raised them, they will have no doubt turned out to be just like me and will understand.

Posted by: popejenn at August 3, 2008 10:17 PM

pookie, she handled my junk just fine!nothing to lose our heads over , right?

Posted by: pasadenamike at August 3, 2008 10:28 PM

popejenn, I still think you're a git, but damn that's a harsh penance! You have my full permission to pull a boozehound and get pleasantly drunk in the theatre. The karma, 'tis a bitch indeed.

Posted by: lordhelmet at August 3, 2008 10:30 PM

lordhelmet, I am indeed a git and have actually been called much worse.
I won't be pulling a boozehound, though. Tomorrow is much too important. I'm going to the zoo to try and slip some fun toys into the monkey cage. I will need all my wits about me!

Posted by: popejenn at August 3, 2008 10:40 PM

Bet it's a closed casket funeral.

I suppose it's a bit late for that one.

Posted by: noah at August 3, 2008 10:51 PM

Shay, I was actually appalled by how casually Popejenn commented on a horrific act of violence that truly could've happened to anybody. Then again, I always imagine myself or a loved one in just about any horrific situation and just can't laugh at it - not even the Darwin Awards. I just think of that person's pain and fear and their family's grief and nothing else.

Anastasia, I'm with you. I want to slap the shit out of people who don't care one iota about anything that doesn't affect them personally. Hey, I don't know anybody serving in Iraq, so what the hell do I care?

Posted by: samantha t at August 3, 2008 11:03 PM

Do you people realize that my original "comment" was that I was going to research more about the incident instead of going to the movie? And called reality more entertaining and horrifying than movies.

Where is the insulting part of that? Seriously.
I realize that I am inviting more people to be super pissed off at me. So be it.

My original post only observed that the real world is much more perplexing than any twisted plot Hollywood could come up with.

Also, it's amusing that people just assume that I don't have a direct association with the tragedy. Presumptions! It seems sadly ironic that news of this incident was more readily available to us through the internet and news channels than from the police who informed his family.

But I say it again: whatever helps you get through the day.

Posted by: popejenn at August 3, 2008 11:23 PM

I suppose I could drag myself and some friends to this if I didn't already have plans searching the internet about that bus beheading. Who needs this movie when reality is so much more entertaining and horrifying?

popejenn, had you merely left it at the first line there'd be no complaints here. The wording of your second line suggested you were getting your entertainment jollies from the gross misfortune of a real person instead of from a movie. In light of your most recent comment it's clearer that you meant reality is more messed-up than movies are, and that reality is often more entertaining than a movie, Linking the two truisms so directly left open the ensuing misinterpretations and reactions. Taken separately, I'm sure your statements would receive general agreement. Linked as they were, without further clarification or context from you, the insulting implications were much easier drawn. As for me, there's now no quarrel with you anymore, you're welcome aboard MurderMaid at any time, although if you remain worse than a git you may be relegated to one of the gunner's jobs.

samantha t, hun, this is why we have the Murder franchise of tanks, canoes, dinghys, and maids at our disposal, for the righteous and vigorous slapping of excessively insulated people such as you describe (among others). Of course, you could always point out how everything effects them, if less directly (eg their taxes financing Iraq at the cost of concern x, y, or z). Take your pick!

Posted by: lordhelmet at August 3, 2008 11:53 PM

Huh. I just realized that I said popejohn.

Therefore, I shall name myself a dumbshit and fade into the background.

But before I go- you referred to the incident as entertaining. That is what's insulting.

Noah, stop being a douche. It's unnecessary.

Posted by: Jaci at August 4, 2008 9:58 AM

No, I did not call that particular incident entertaining. I merely said "reality" was more entertaining (and horrifying).

But I do realize that I should have clarified, or seperated the two comments as LordH suggests.

Although that doesn't make me any less of a git.

Posted by: popejenn at August 4, 2008 12:29 PM

Oh you have got to be kidding me. I cannot handle a sensitivity course on a pajiba thread about a shitty movie.

popejenn: you're fine, IMO. You made a comment about a current event. Big f-ing deal. It reminds me of the Dennis Leary rant about "Poodle Man". Death is horrible and sad and sometimes morbidly funny. Methinks if you're devastated by a death that is both public and horrifyingly unnatural, the interwebs isn't the place to hang out to avoid it. Maybe?

And it's nice and easy to get sanctimonious post-comment, but let's be reals ladies of gents of Pajibaland. If Anne hadn't shown up we'd be waxing hysterically over strange deaths. We live in a world where Faces of Death exists on video and can be rented by 15 year olds. So let's straighten the panties?

Posted by: lilianna28 at August 4, 2008 2:21 PM

We live in a world where Faces of Death exists on video and can be rented by 15 year olds.

...and THAT is my problem, not popejenn's original comment. PJ, it is unfair that you got vilified for that remark; you're certainly not the first to make a wisecrack about the incident, and it really was a pretty inocuous statement (especially upon your clarification), Further, as many have pointed out, we likely all would have been more sensitive if we knew a friend of the victim was in "earshot" (and as lilianna28 points out, would continue with the dark commentary if Anne didn't delurk).

I do still cringe at the idea that apologizing is considered "compromising who you are," though. Not that I think you owe anybody one, but I just find that an odd and kind of sad statement.

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 4, 2008 5:11 PM

llilianna & popejenn, Mo (& everyone else)

Your writings, like mine, are all dictated in the timing, on a constantly-changing internet site, which benefits us all, and one must remember that. I've been called out for hastily-written flames before, & most likely will be again. That's the danger of the immediacy of e-mail and the internet.

We wouldn't be so hasty to add our comments to a forum where we could care less about the other's point of view (HuffingtonPost being one of them - now those commenters are certified losers, no matter what position they're taking);

when you post on here, neophyte, be prepared to have your thought-out, prepared opinion drawn, quartered and handed back to your own exposed pounding heart by forces I dare not speak of here - 'tis surely the way to madness to do such-

and then please re-think your commentary & how it might be perceived by other Pajibanites who, as far as I've seen, have a unique, collective perspective and will not deny your right to voicing your own opinion- only reserving the right to question/ respond to any inconsistencies you might display in your communications.

If you're that comfortable in your unshakeabale predicitions , then you'll get the courtesy of a discussion.

Don't post irrational hate and expect to be answered by rationality- they'll merely carve your ass into indistinguishable portions and feast on the petulance you displayed when you were still among the breathing.

We ain't got a MurderTank merely for "display purposes," you unnerstand??!

Posted by: TMax half-way at August 4, 2008 7:46 PM

Cheers, TMax, my friend (half-way or otherwise)--I'm just buzzed enough to know that you've got a very good point in there somewhere, but need a few more minutes (read: beers) to catch up to your frame of reference.

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 4, 2008 8:44 PM

TMax, are you lecturing me on what to expect here?

Who the hell is exactly posting irrational hate (well besides Pookie but come on, he's Pookie!)? Noting that save the presence of Ms. Anne we'd be snarkishly talking about real-life horror stories isn't hate filled OR irrational. Nor is it unfair to come to the defense of someone who said NOTHING REALLY WRONG HERE except that he didn't want to apologize for a very benign comment.

Now you can throw a shit fit about the impoliteness of such a declaration, you can post your usual rants and raves but don't be preaching, my friend, about the presence of the MurderTank™ (ESPECIALLY when you forget the ™). I have a damn locker on the MurderTank™ to protect my pretty Coach purses. Skitt lets me take it out for parties and cocktails and evenings of bloodshed. Seriously, unless you're senior Skittimus or TK or Vermillion or Julie (cause I'm still kind of in love with her) do me a favor and keep your little lessons on Pajiba to your own self? Cause this faux lesbian knows not to talk to Sabrina about pie, has the drinkin' game good and memorized and remembers when BSlim ruled these here parts. So lighten up son, and don't go telling the likes of Mo and the rest of us what goes on or I'm libel to go all Deadwood on someone up in here.

Or, you know, something like that.

Posted by: lilianna28 at August 4, 2008 8:54 PM

Hey, lilianna28, how do you do that superscript thingy with the "TM," anyway? It gives the MurderTank a little added panache (well, that and the Coach purse locker, of course!) Bold and italics are currently the extent of my html abilities....

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 4, 2008 9:01 PM

I probably shouldn't get all whippersnappy since I can't ever remember the bold and italics, but I just use the option 2 on the keyboard. I have a Mac, which I am referring to JUST TO EXPLAIN and not in any way because I'm trying to brag about my fricking awesome computer... you know.

Psst, Mo, Did I totally misread the TMax thing? Don't tell him I'm askin' or anything... it seemed lecture-y

Posted by: lilianna28 at August 4, 2008 9:06 PM

Sure we were lectured, but with TMax it tends to be a benign and well-meaning lecture. We have a date to watch movies on the couch together with my husband, so we'll have a touching heart-to-heart then and clear it all up.

Thanks for the explanation--alas, I don't have a Mac (not opposed to them, I just let my husband do the computer-picking). Ah well, my MurderTank will have to do without that extra touch o' class....

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 4, 2008 9:19 PM

Oh, you mean ™? Alt+0153, dearest.

Oh, wait, I'm supposed to be disstapeered. Cause I'm an ijit.

Posted by: Jaci at August 4, 2008 9:40 PM

Obviously not an ijit, my dear--don't ever disamapear on us.

Now, I just have to go figure out how alt plus a bunch of numbers becomes superscript, and dammit, I shan't return until I do...

Is this that ascii nonsense? Gah! Computerese is not my forte...but thanks to you, I shall make Superscript my bitch! Oh, yes! G'night, all...

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 4, 2008 10:21 PM

Hey...I'm the one who started TMing the MurderTank, dagnabbit.

Posted by: Shadows of Dakaron at August 4, 2008 11:19 PM

Actually there was a tiny piece of truth, that "swing vote" hangs its plot, on. In 2000
there was a tie in the popular vote, and it was so close, it was decided by a coin toss.

Posted by: narciso at August 4, 2008 11:45 PM

And by coin toss you mean supreme court justice toss?

Mo, I appreciate where you're coming from when you said you were sad about my not apologizing. I suppose I figured I should stand by my comment, I meant what I wrote, I didn't want to back down.

There is a formal memorial service soon for Tim. If Anne is there, perhaps I can explain in person rather than over the internet.

Posted by: popejenn at August 5, 2008 1:00 AM

And by coin toss you mean supreme court justice toss?

I hear Ruth Bader Ginsburg will fly upwards of 50 metres with a good wind.


...what? I can't be the only person who read that and thought of midget-tossing.

Posted by: Shay at August 5, 2008 5:07 AM

You weren't the only one...

I also thought of that Scottish sport of tossing giant logs of timber. What was that sport called...?

Posted by: popejenn at August 5, 2008 8:35 AM

Popejenn, an online handshake/hug to you, my dear--I kind of sounded like a moralizing tool up there. Okay, scratch "kind of".

Besides, I think I may love you forever for the image of The Supreme Court Caber Toss! Ha, that's great...robes flying and kilts a-flailing in the breeze...

Posted by: MO(meaux) at August 5, 2008 9:21 AM

Shadows, of course you get mad props. If I listed everyone who deserves to bitch about the Pajiba rules before TMax does, I could have gone on forever. But props where props are due. My bad.

Posted by: lilianna28 at August 5, 2008 9:48 AM

Without moral people, the likes of me and my cold heart would run amok. We need each other!

I think rather than chess becomming an Olympic Sport, it should be the Supreme Court Judge Caber Toss... Who would I bring that up to?

Posted by: popejenn at August 5, 2008 5:39 PM

Kevin Costner's film career is worse than Robin Williams. Maybe Costner should play a pedo and try and save it at least...

Posted by: ph at August 6, 2008 4:56 AM

John Williams, your music is really great.

Did anyone really expect this movie to be watchable?

Posted by: MRod at August 6, 2008 1:59 PM