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Sit Back. Show Your Film. And Shut the Fuck Up.

SiCKO / Dustin Rowles

Film Reviews | June 28, 2007 | Comments (165)


The one thing that I wish for SiCKO is that Michael Moore has learned to keep his goddamn mouth shut and let his movie do the talking. Because, honest to God, the only people that could sincerely hate SiCKO are the people that don’t see it. In addition to being an experience that inspires Kubrickian levels of eye-opening, in this movie the smarmy has been tempered, the sanctimonious bullshit is largely absent, and the sensationalism has been dulled. In their place is a level of poignancy unseen since Roger and Me. I don’t think it’s overstating to say that SiCKO is not only Michael Moore’s best documentary; in fact, it may be the most important piece of social commentary you’ll ever see in a movie theater. And unlike Fahrenheit 9/11 or Bowling for Columbine before it, there’s hardly anything divisive about SiCKO, except for those who can’t stand Moore on principle alone, or those so greedy and selfish that they literally don’t give a shit about their fellow man. Hell, the only people on the other side of the issue anymore, it seems, are insurance and drug companies, and those who profit from them, including an assortment of politicians, Republicans and Democrats alike — the very demons, in all likelihood, who will demonize Moore and this film.

Granted, the case that Moore makes for universal health care isn’t entirely critic-proof — once again, he largely eschews statistical evidence in favor of the more cinematically powerful anecdotal evidence. Nor does he, when presenting a case for the health care systems in Great Britain, Canada, and France, adequately address the many concerns that citizens in those countries have with their own systems. But it’s only a two-hour movie, and what Moore does during those two hours is astonishing: He paints a damning picture of the American health system, explaining why it harms not only the uninsured, but also the insured who get systematically screwed by their HMOs, while presenting an equally convincing case for that evil, evil socialized medicine (and for you knee-jerk Ron Paul libertarians quick to jump on universal health care as the beginning of the slippery slope toward Communism, Moore offers this reminder: Our police and fire departments, our post offices, and our schools are all owned and operated by the federal government … so why the hell not our hospitals?)

You could argue, too, that Moore engages in the same brand of fear-mongering that his opponents rely on — bringing our attention to a problem some of us didn’t know existed, at least to the extent that it does. But the difference between Moore’s fear mongering and, say, the Bush administration’s, is that he’s raising concerns about an actual ongoing problem, instead of the threat of one. Yes — we certainly could be attacked by terrorists at any time, and yes, another 9/11-level attack could occur any second (as we are so often reminded), killing another 3,000 innocent citizens. But, the health care system is broken now, and 18,000 people die each year because of inadequate or no health insurance. And those people are just as innocent as those who fall victim to terrorist attacks.

Still, it’s probably not my place to get all polemical here. As a critic, I’m tasked with addressing the merits of Moore’s film rather than unpacking his arguments, so I’ll say this about SiCKO: It is thought-provoking, entertaining, sometimes tearjerky, and consistently chilling. He opens the movie in typical Moore fashion, with a profile of one of the 50 million folks without health coverage — a man who lost two fingers and had to choose which to reattach based upon his budget —and then warns us that, though this man’s story highlights a huge problem, this movie is not about people like him. It’s about people who are insured, those at the mercy of the for-profit industry tasked with ensuring our health and well being. Through a series of accounts, Moore documents these companies’ refusal to cover certain procedures because the illnesses were not “life threatening” (two women with breast cancer and brain cancer — both patients died); the lengths it goes to deny coverage (a woman in a head-on collision whose ambulance ride wasn’t covered because she didn’t get it “preapproved” while she was unconscious); folks who couldn’t get insurance because they were deemed too fat (5’1”, 175 lbs) or too thin (6’0”, 130 lbs); and a bone-marrow transplant deemed too “experimental” (the man died). Most damning of all, Moore talks to current and former claims adjusters who reveal the contemptible tactics of the industry, including bonuses to doctors who deny coverage and denials of coverage to patients for refusing to reveal such life-threatening preexisting conditions as a long-resolved yeast infection.

After exploring the origins of HMOs (Nixon!) and thoroughly trashing the American health system, Moore takes us on a brief tour of the systems in Canada, England, and France, deftly demonstrating why the United States is currently ranked 37th in the world in health care, “just slightly ahead of Slovenia.” Granted, Moore probably cherry-picked people to interview with uncommonly good experiences, but he does do a reasonable job of refuting some of the typical concerns that many in America have raised about universal health coverage (higher taxes, poorer care, longer lines, impoverished doctors, etc.). He explores health coverage in other countries as a tourist with no prior knowledge might, expressing surprise, disappointment, bewilderment, and occasionally some of that trademark Moore sarcasm.

But, by and large, Moore remains — thankfully — a background figure in his own film. Until the final scenes, in which he takes ill 9/11 rescue workers abandoned by the American health care system to Cuba, Moore keeps his ass out of the camera’s view. He seems to have learned from the mistakes of his past two documentaries; he’s most effective when he presents his story matter-of-factly, allowing the power of the personal anecdotes to do most of the work from him (as he did in Roger and Me), rather than leave a trail of greasy self-indulgence all over the film print. Even when he does appear, he doesn’t try to rile anyone up. He doesn’t confront any CEOs or stick a microphone in the face of unwilling interviewees. He’s laid back, folksy, and seems genuinely concerned with the problems America faces.

More importantly, he’s not trying to be the alienating figure he was four years ago in Fahrenheit 9/11 — ultimately, a whipping boy for the conservative movement, a man who riled up Republicans more than he did liberals. Here, he doesn’t want to be the poster boy for the ails of the American health care system. He seems content to show us what’s wrong with what we’re doing, and to provide some examples of successful systems in other countries, not to taunt U.S. policy makers, but to demonstrate how we can fix our own system. It’s an undeniably powerful documentary with an equally powerful point to make. Its effectiveness, however, depends on whether he allows the positive word of mouth deliver it or if he blocks it with his big gaping pie-hole of divisiveness. Given the power and urgency of his underlying message, I sincerely hope he can keep it together.

Dustin Rowles is the publisher of Pajiba. He lives with his wife in Ithaca, New York. You may email him, or leave a comment below.


Boomsday | Ratatouille





Comments

Wow. I was uneasy about seeing this, because honestly I can't stand the man. But now I will definitely go. Great review!

Posted by: Rachael at June 27, 2007 2:48 PM

Our police and fire departments, our post offices, and our schools are all owned and operated by the federal government ... so why the hell not our hospitals?

Actually, several of these are owned and operated by local governments rather than the federal government, and there are people who argue in favor of, for example, privatizing most of public education. While Moore doesn't have to work hard to convice me, there are people who see a huge distinction between local and national govermennt.

Posted by: emma at June 27, 2007 2:50 PM

Ok, so usually my problem with seeing docs like this (The Corporation, Farenheit 9-11, etc.) is that afterwards, I feel so helplessly overwhelmed about my own ability to positively impact anything.

Does he give real solutions aside from universal healthcare? And is that even a realistic goal for our country now?

I'm seeing it, but I don't want to be demoralized when I leave the theatre....

Posted by: nexus 6 at June 27, 2007 3:10 PM

Nexus, I feel the exact same way. What I loved about Roger and Me was the subtlety of the film, whereas Fahrenheit 9/11 was just too much at one time. Hopefully, I'll see the film and leave feeling inspired to do more instead of powerless.

Posted by: Brie at June 27, 2007 3:32 PM

I don't think, as a libertarian, my position on universal health care is knee-jerk. I don't think it's the beginning of the slippery-slope towards communism so much as I am wary of a decline in the level of health care available in this country. I'm greatly intrigued by Moore's new film because I love his other documentaries and I'd love to find a way to make health care accessible and affordable for everyone. I like Ron Paul because he's the only candidate to be given any attention on the national level that talks about the Libertarian issues I've been passionate about since I was 16. Maybe there are those too quick to accept Ron Paul, but I don't blame them for liking a guy willing to be honest about his beliefs.

Posted by: Jen at June 27, 2007 3:39 PM

"(and for you knee-jerk Ron Paul libertarians quick to jump on universal health care as the beginning of the slippery slope toward Communism, Moore offers this reminder: Our police and fire departments, our post offices, and our schools are all owned and operated by the federal government ... so why the hell not our hospitals?)"

Now who's being divisive?

Posted by: hmm at June 27, 2007 3:39 PM

I'm really interested in seeing this now. I'm on the fence about universal health care. On one hand, everybody gets taken care of for their ills; on the other, I can't see our government adequately running health care. Plus, you're inviting government into your personal life. I don't really believe the whole communist-UHC theory, but right now our government is telling us that we're too fat; in California (where I live) we're banning trans-fats, outlawing smoking in communities...telling people how to live their lives. What would the UFC system do? And would all hospitals follow the same rules state-by-state? I have a right to visit and make medical decisions for my partner in California, would hospitals in other states extend that right to me? As it stands now, I have to carry around a lot of paperwork when traveling (which can just be ignored in some states), would a UFC system truly be universal?

Posted by: Morgan at June 27, 2007 3:44 PM

Great review! I can't wait to see this. I have a degree in social work and we talked about universal health care all the time when I was in college. I think that it is important that people are faced with the fact that what we are doing not really doesn't work and we need to try something new.

Posted by: Erin at June 27, 2007 3:47 PM

My feelings on the subject are pretty strong, so I won't get too vocal here. But I will say this - I'm, as a general rule, opposed to privatization. That goes for schools as well. I get frustrated by the thought process wherein people say that "well, the government isn't doing it right, let's privatize!", without considering that maybe we should spend some time FIXING the government. We should be trying to get the system to function properly, instead of throwing it out the window and handing it over a profit-driven system. Goddamnit, a government is supposed to take care of it's citizens. That includes health care.

Michael Moore - I like his politics, but can't stand his grandstanding and attitude. So that means that this might be the movie for me. Color me excited.

Also, whoever mentioned that police and fire departments are managed by their local governments - Federal dollars still subsidize those departments.

Posted by: TK at June 27, 2007 4:06 PM

Our police and fire departments, our post offices, and our schools are all owned and operated by the federal government ... so why the hell not our hospitals?

Moore obviously has no idea how terrible American schools are by international standards. We're lucky if we beat places significantly poorer than us, like Turkey. Perhaps that should be what his next documentary is about.

The government also runs our DMV. I don't want a health care system that runs like that. Offer an optional national health insurance package if you want, but I don't want the government running any more industries.

Posted by: Henry VII at June 27, 2007 4:09 PM

(and for you knee-jerk Ron Paul libertarians quick to jump on universal health care as the beginning of the slippery slope toward Communism, Moore offers this reminder: Our police and fire departments, our post offices, and our schools are all owned and operated by the federal government ... so why the hell not our hospitals?)

Rather than responding to all of the foolishness of this rave review (based, it seems, more on the political message than the merits of the work as a film), I will only respond to the comment in italics above - as I believe it demonstrates the foolish thinking that permeates the review as a whole.

The argument you seem to put forth is that b/c the gov't does some things, why not let it do everything? I.e., the government runs the post office - so why not let it run health care!! Well, let me ask you - the government runs the post office, so why turn your web-site over to the government? How is that argument any different?

Is that really your argument? And, post office, schools, etc. - the way the governemnt runs these things (mostly local gov't by the way, not federal) is your argument for socializing all of health care? Really? You think that is a persuasive argument for socializing health care - that government runs schools? I don't know where you have been, but public schools are not exactly well run for the most part.

I also like how you begin your "review" by demonizing anyone who disagrees with Moore as being greedy or coldhearted. It could never be that people have a rational, intellectual disagreement about the best way to reform health care could it? No, it has to be that everyone who disagrees with you is evil (which is of course a typical and lazy liberal cliche). That way you can pretend you are more intelligent then everyone else AND that you are morally superior. It's a too-fer.

I know from reading this site regularly that you are all incredibly liberal, but I really thought you were more intelligent than this.

Posted by: Great Banana at June 27, 2007 4:23 PM

Well, then. Apparently it's on.

Posted by: Ranylt at June 27, 2007 4:25 PM

Goddamnit, a government is supposed to take care of it's citizens.

And here I though it was citizens responsibility to take care of themselves, with government to provide for things like law enforcement and the common defense. I learn something new every day.

Posted by: Great Banana at June 27, 2007 4:27 PM

You're absolutely right, Mr. Banana. And amen to that. We should go ahead and privatize the postal service, too. And treat it just like the health care system. That way, 50 million Americans wouldn't get their mail. And the fire department -- you couldn't get your house hosed down unless you were pre-approved. And the cops, too! The police departments could pocket all the profits they amassed by not appropriately dealing with crime. The citizenry would be mugged regularly, but a few Police Department CEO's would be loaded! I think that system sounds fantastic!

Posted by: Great Mango at June 27, 2007 4:36 PM

Heh. Seriously, Ranylt. Nothin' left to do but sit back and watch the fireworks.

Posted by: litelysalted at June 27, 2007 4:38 PM

And here I though it was citizens responsibility to take care of themselves

Oh, please. Don't oversimplify it. Of course people are responsible for taking care of themselves. But the fact is that there are certain things that people cannot always handle by themselves. They cannot get their mail to California. They can't protect themselves from criminals (well... Texas...), and they can't always provide themselves with adequate health care. A government (in my philosophical view of it, anyway) exists to provide certain services to it's people. We pay taxes to pay for said services. Defense, education, and, yes, healthcare, should fall into those categories of things that I believe your government should provide.

And again, the argument that we shouldn't have universal health care because "look how shitty the schools are" is, I think, the argument of those who lack the motivation to try to get the government to fix the system. Not to mention that it's easily countered with "look how shitty private health care is". Yes, in many places the educational system stinks. But that doesn't mean we throw the whole thing out. I think it means that we try to get people into office who will work towards correcting the mistakes of the past and getting us to a point where our government does things RIGHT.

Posted by: TK at June 27, 2007 4:39 PM

Great Banana:
I feel like you didn't even read his review all the way though. I don't think that his only argument for universal health care is that the government does one thing so it should do this too. He talks about how Moore showed where our system is currently failing and how other systems are working. Also of course this review has much to do with a political view. It is a documentary about a political view. But you are still wrong because he did talk about the merits of the film. Also i hate when people say that people are supposed to just take care of themselves. That is so selfish. I guess that can be your opinion, but I hope that you are never in a position of needing help from people like you. Why do you have so little compassion.

Posted by: Erin at June 27, 2007 4:42 PM

A couple coworkers and I are looking forward to this movie because even though all of us have health insurance, we have our own horror stories about dealing with the for-profit insurance industry; in my case, my family had to declare bankruptcy to survive.

Another coworker of mine is very politically conservative. He listens to Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, etc., all day long on the radio in his office. Any mention of a national health care system sends him into a tailspin of socialized medicine and communist plots. It's the height of irony because he's a retired schoolteacher and a veteran. Therefore, he has two separate health care plans provided by state and federal government respectively, and paid for, well, by me and his coworkers. Somehow, the socialized medicine that he enjoys is not good enough for us unwashed masses.

Anyway, my coworker's case just reinforces my belief that anyone who opposes a nationalized health care system, yet receives the benefits of a government-run health care plan (and I'm looking at you, Congress and the Bush Adminstration), needs to have their membership card yanked right out of their greedy little mitts.

Posted by: Rebecca at June 27, 2007 4:43 PM

sorry great banana, I don't mean to be rude, but do u actually make any point in your endless non sense comment? You are either very lucky or really rich or maybe just really alone and never had to deal with this kind of problem.

Posted by: rio at June 27, 2007 4:48 PM

Anyone (possibly even including your good self, Dustin) who has a 401K, mutual funds, a CD, or any investment plan (yes, even those who are only into ethical funds) is without a doubt profiting from the drug industry so perhaps a little too quick to demonize there?

Posted by: PaddyDog at June 27, 2007 4:50 PM

Excellent counter point TK.

Anyways, I really hope EVERYONE sees the movie on its own merits. Who CARES if it's a Micheal Moore documentary and let the issues speak for themselves. I strongly encourage everyone to see this movie regardless of anything else. It's a must see for every American.

Btw, I can see how you guys began out as a part political commentary site. You guys really really love your politics...but can you try to leave it out of it and just judge the movie by itself? I mean, thinking back, was it really neccessary to delve into a conservative/liberal debate in HOOKED UP of all movies?! >

Posted by: daeyeth at June 27, 2007 4:54 PM

"Moore offers this reminder: Our police and fire departments, our post offices, and our schools are all owned and operated by the federal government ... so why the hell not our hospitals?"


Bwa haa haaaa!
Ahem... Well, frankly because I've set foot in LA county hospitals.

Posted by: Scott at June 27, 2007 5:16 PM

What would the UFC system do?

Probably ban biting, eye gouging, hair pulling and elbows to the top of the head. You could, however, win any dispute by tap out or knock out or, providing there's a sufficiently qualified crowd, judge's decision.

Posted by: random at June 27, 2007 5:25 PM

I actually liked "Roger and me" the least, I find Michael Moore for the most part entertaining. But I can also see how he isnt for everyone.

I think the best point of this movie and your review is that only true assholes or super rich (which usually are the same people) wont like this movie.


I cant wait to see it! Thanks for a great review.

Posted by: ebethneu at June 27, 2007 5:28 PM

I have many friends and family who are in the medical field. Not all doctors have their pockets lined with pharm money. But all of them will admit there is TREMENDOUS pressure to bow down to the system and please the insurance/pharm companies. So much so that my friend had to close her practice "for ethical reasons" (her words, not mine) and started a sub-prime lending agency.

While I (thankfully) have never suffered terribly from the HMO system, I can recall when I first became self-employed and had to choose between the cheaper HMO with its $10 co-pay/$5 prescriptions, and the costlier PPO, with it's 20%-of-everything-comes-out-of-my-pocket-now agenda. I choose the PPO because I heard it provided better care (even tho' writing a check for every drs visit hurt my wallet at first). I didn't believe there was an advantage until I contacted my GYN to schedule a routine 6 month check-up. The nurse dryly told me that the wait was 2 weeks, but when I told the nurse my insurance had changed from HMO to PPO, she exclaimed, "Oh, in THAT case, he can see you sooner... can you come by later today?"

When I questioned my doctor about this practice, he simply shrugged and said that the HMO hadn't paid him in 2 YEARS, so he was taking his time seeing his HMO patients. He said he tries his best to give them the same care, but he was basically working for free, and almost on the brink of loosing his practice. Flash forward a year later, and he still hadn't gotten paid for 300+ patients for 3 years! Eventually, he had to stop taking HMO patients all together. In fact, there are very few doctors at my local medical building who still accept new HMO patients. It makes you almost want to brand the words PPO and your policy number on your forehead, just in case you are incapacitated and can't produce evidence of insurance.

The only way I can rest comfortably is to pay for the best insurance money can buy, then start saving tons of cash just in case something comes along that's not covered. But how feasible is that? I mean, what do the super rich folks do? What insurance plan does Oprah have?

Posted by: ciji at June 27, 2007 5:53 PM

And unlike Fahrenheit 9/11 or Bowling for Columbine before it, there's hardly anything divisive about SiCKO, except for those who can't stand Moore on principal alone, or those so greedy and selfish that they literally don't give a shit about their fellow man.




PrinciPLE.

Posted by: Adalmin at June 27, 2007 5:57 PM

"And here I though it was citizens responsibility to take care of themselves"

I agree w/ the jist (gist?) of what you're saying. I think far too few people take true responsibility for themselves these days.

Our entitlement programs are both bane and boon. My dad's best words of advice to me were: "noone has to take care of you, but you". So, while I appreciate knowing that if I fell on hard times there will be services out there that will help me get back on my feet, I sure as shit don't expect them to be there.

With regards to healthcare, it'd be nice if we started w/ the doctors. I went to mine today for a yearly and to mention that my sprained finger from 6 months ago isn't doing so hot (I didn't get it xrayed after going ass over teakettle in a creek bed)... immediately I was signed up for xrays, occupational therapy, medicine....

all I wanted was a $1.57 splint. And some Advil.

But now, I'm looking at a quoted $1500 bill b/c my PPO won't cover anything above that for therapy.

I think that's fucked up. Not as fucked up as my sister flying to Eastern Europe to have her wisdom teeth removed b/c the cost of roundtrip plane tickets, surgery, and medicine were still *$2000* LESS than what she would have had to pay here in the US.

Posted by: Stella at June 27, 2007 6:27 PM

I'm not going to get all sanctimonious Canadian on you over here, because our socialized system is a little messed up too. There are long waiting lines in emergency, and yeah I pay more taxes (though considering the defense budget over there, probably not much higher then the average American's. Especially if you add on the cost of health insurance). But I mean, my Dad has cancer. If we had to pay for everything, he'd be dead. At least we all get the same semi-decent health care, you know?
It's also worth noting that complete privatization and complete socialized health care aren't the only options. In BC we pay monthly for medicare, depending on income level (people who make under 20,000 dollars a year don't pay, and neither does anyone under 18). I know that some of the more conservative provinces are discussing opening a few private clinics, too.
Anyway, great review. I'll definitely see the movie, even though I'm uneasy about Moore.

Posted by: Max at June 27, 2007 6:34 PM

By starting with the doctors, I meant for that to mean I wish doctors would help bring healthcare costs down by not overprescribing medications/procedures. My doctor is so prescription happy, her eyes glaze over whenever I mention "non-prescription" solutions to what ails me.

Posted by: Stella at June 27, 2007 7:00 PM

Stella, believe me, as someone who pays almost one-fourth of every already pathetic paycheck for health insurance, I'm all for reforming the system, but just where in the HELL was your sister trying to get her wisdom teeth removed that FLYING TO EUROPE made it a cheaper option? I had all four out at one time and it cost me (without insurance) a little over $1700 for the procedure. This story sounds a little suspect to me.

Posted by: tinmo at June 27, 2007 7:34 PM

Stella - you definitely hit the nail on the head. I read a great book recently on our health care culture and how it differs from others in the world. One of the main problems with our system is that Americans feel that if everything possible isn't being done to cure or diagnose them, then doctors may as well be doing nothing. We also have a tendency to set a very low threshold as to what is healthy and what is not. For example, what we now deem pre-hypertension to be a treatable condition, whereas in other countries (notably Europe because that's where my knowledge lies), it wouldn't be considered a problem at all. We are over-reactionary and overly cautious in our all or nothing health culture, and we're paying for it in they way it strains the system. Is this really going to make us healthier in the long run? Current trends and statistics certainly say no.

I wouldn't blame doctors for this though. It's more of a mutual doctor/patient problem that both have perpetuated.

Posted by: katy at June 27, 2007 7:43 PM

...18,000 people die each year because of inadequate or no health insurance. And those people are just as innocent as those who fall victim to terrorist attacks.

Those people are just as dead, too.

...folks who couldn't get insurance because they were deemed too fat (5'1", 175 lbs)...

Uh oh. I hope the fat police don't come after me.

What insurance plan does Oprah have?

What if Oprah reads Pajiba? How cool would that be. Hi Oprah!

Posted by: Bianca Reagan at June 27, 2007 8:22 PM

This movie will show what many of us already know- the American government does not give a shit about its citizens. My fiance has had to self-medicate numerous infections and ailments because he can't afford good health insurance, and my mother is in debt for life because her insurance would not cover her hysterectomy because it was not "life-threatening". When they told her that, she was bleeding internally. One of my good friends can never again drink alcohol (she's 21) because her doctors chose not to tell her she had numerous kidney stones...because it wasn't covered by her insurance.

So it seems only the rich deserve long, healthy lives. Survival of the fittest makes alot more sense when you're a politician making 6 figures a year by supporting a corrupt health care system.

Posted by: FutureAustralian at June 27, 2007 8:32 PM

Regardless of whether or not Sicko is any good, as a Canadian I'm not looking forward to the poor comparisons of our system to yours that will inevitably follow its release. If I hear one more of my fellow citizens crow about this film as some sort of excuse for not updating or overhauling our heathcare... or one more American flatter our socialized program based merely on what Michael Moore told him...

I wonder if frustration-induced head explosion is covered by OHIP.

Posted by: Ashley at June 27, 2007 8:55 PM

Our police and fire departments, our post offices, and our schools are all owned and operated by the federal government ... so why the hell not our hospitals?

That's actually supposed to be a justification for government-run health care? Just look at the mess our public schools are in now for the answer to that one. We spend billions on education at the state and federal levels every year, and the per capita amount per student has increased every year for the past thirty years...yet test scores - and graduation rates, in many cities - continue to fall. Our education dollars have bought little more than a sprawling education bureaucracy and a loud, powerful teachers' union that kicks back millions of dollars to the politicians that support them. What makes you think government-run health care would be any better? At best, most of us would end up with the same sorry healthcare we have now, provided by a differently-but-equally corrupt system.

And a healthcare system that operated as effectively as the post office...would probably actually be worse than what most of us currently have.

Dustin correctly notes that Moore, while lauding government-run health care in Canada, France and Britain, glossed over the shortcomings and failures of those systems (to include rationed treatment and lengthy delays in diagnostic testing such as MRIs). However, we don't have to look beyond our borders to find failure in government-run health care; just ask any military veteran who's spent time in the clutches of the Veterans' Administration...especially if they've spent any length of time in a VA-run hospital. I've known quite a few military veterans who were treated in VA hospitals...and all of them, to a man, told me they had a rather unpleasant time of it.

Posted by: Wes S. at June 27, 2007 9:12 PM

I'm sort've interested why no one's talking about the "Medical Vacations" that are starting to catch on. NPR did a segment on it a couple of weeks ago. Basically you can go to India or Thailand for a heart condition, and have it done more cheaply. My spouse and I still consider getting our teeth worked on in Turkey because it's cheaper and just as efficient
Oh yeah, we are a family of four with no health coverage save the good old government Medicaid. Did I mention we're Republicans?

Posted by: bebemiqui at June 27, 2007 9:44 PM

It's times like this I'm proud to be Australian. Well. A fairly typical Gen-Y Australian who is still covered by her parents' private health insurance, but still. Our public hospital system seems to function mostly OK, comparatively. Let's hear a cheer for Medicare!

Dentistry, on the other hand...well...let's not go there. I am after all, a fairly typical Gen-Y Australian who is still covered by her parents' private health insurance.

Posted by: rach at June 27, 2007 10:36 PM

I'm looking forward to see it. I'm glad Moore is scaling back his on-screen time.

Posted by: Kevin Longrie at June 27, 2007 10:43 PM

What no one has addressed yet is why the HMO system seems so bad today, namely that it is older than most of the medical treatment options that we now have. Insurance programs for the most part were developed before the proliferation of perscription drugs and the discovery of so many of the new effective treatments that we now enjoy today. Medicine costs more today than it did fifty or even twenty years ago, and the result is that many people are putting larger burdens on a system that simply put cannot cope with the expense of medicine. Saying that the government should step in and try to solve this seems like a poor answer, no one seriously suggests that the government should nationalize the auto industry despite all the problems it is having, why do people assume that medicine can be treated any other way? Medicine is a business, and if we put the government in control of the prices it will essentially control what products (i.e. procedures, medications, types of care) will be offered on the market. In the short-term prices will drop, but in the long run care will suffer as we see fewer and fewer reasons for both doctors and drug companies to innovate and look for more ways to save lives.

Posted by: jorvik at June 27, 2007 10:46 PM

"Goddamnit, a government is supposed to take care of it's [sic] (no pun intended) citizens."

I'm a confirmed Democrat, but still...yikes!

Posted by: Grace at June 27, 2007 10:59 PM

Nor does he, when presenting a case for the health care systems in Great Britain, Canada, and France, adequately address the many concerns that citizens in those countries have with their own systems.

This is a pretty major shortcoming to just gloss over. If he is going to make a two hour movie arguing that we should scrap our health care system and replace it with the Canadian system, the fact that Canadians hate their system and come to the US for health care whenever possible seems like a pretty important point.

DISCLAIMER: Haven't seen the movie, basing this off of interviews I have seen with MM promoting his film.

Posted by: Schadenfreude at June 27, 2007 11:07 PM

@Schadenfreude: correction - wealthy Canadians come to the US for procedures because they don't have to wait as long here due to the number of people covered in Canada.

Essentially, if you have the $$ our system is faster and more convenient. If you have $.

Posted by: hoorah at June 28, 2007 12:33 AM

Um, I'm not sure that arguing the same geniuses who run the post office should control our health care is a really effective argument.

Posted by: kdawg at June 28, 2007 12:41 AM

I'm with Nexus6 on this. I do wanna see it, and I probably will, but I'm really not looking forward to that feeling of helplessness afterward, especially since I'm one of those 50 million uninsured...THANX A LOT SYSTEM!

Posted by: ALO at June 28, 2007 12:48 AM

I have seen this movie and while he doesn't get into that much detail about the British, Canadian or French health care system, he still makes his point. In Canada, you would never have to choose which finger you want to save because of cost, it is an emergency and it gets fixed regardless of whether you are a welfare recipient or the Prime Minister. That is the point. When people whine about wait times in Canadian hospitals, it's not about actual life or death injuries, but because many go straight to the ER instead of going to their doctor thus clogging the ER. The wait is for cosmetic surgeries and it pisses off those who can afford to pay the thousands of dollars for American treatment that they have to wait in line like the rest of the plebs. It's mostly a situation of thinking the grass is greener on the other side. The good US hospitals are bright and shiny, but the average Canadian couldn't actually afford to go there.
Sure socialized medicine isn't perfect, but if you're OK with living in a country where billions can be spent on weapons and the military defence machine but where if you are not one of the lucky few you will probably die much sooner than you should, then go for it.

Posted by: Nicole at June 28, 2007 12:54 AM

@Stella... what kind of ripoff oral surgeon was your sister seeing? Here in Texas, all 4 3rd molar extractions plus IV sedation so you don't have to feel it or hear it costs around $1000. Much less than your $2000 difference between US and Europe.

Sounds alot like either a crooked dentist or a sister who wanted an excuse to fly to europe.

In Texas, our dentists are required to provide a 'treatment plan' for any services other than diagnostic xrays, teeth cleaning, and a fluoride treatment. Those fees without any insurance at all fall anywhere from 100-300 cash with an extra hundred bucks every couple of years for extra x-rays. Any additional work has to be itemized, fee'd and given to the patient. This allows the patient to price check and call around with the appropriate names of the needed procedures. The fee's also must be honored within 90 days of issuing the treatment plan. This is the law.

Posted by: James Miller at June 28, 2007 1:25 AM

"but he does do a reasonable job of refuting some of the typical concerns that many in America have raised about universal health coverage (higher taxes, poorer care, longer lines, impoverished doctors, etc."

I would like to interject as a Canadian surgeon working in our communist regime: Poor care is not a significant concern for most people in our society (the main issue has generally been & is still wait times for access to NON-URGENT services).

Our healthcare services, while not as shiny as the high priced private centres in the states, rank quite high by international standards. Part of this might be due to the fact that the docs are held accountable for their decisions, which are made primarily in the best interest of the patient, while maintaining consideration for the sustainability of the system. This means no unnecessary tests that have yet to be proven as an asset to clinical decision making. It also means stressing preventative tactics.

If you know anything about Canadians, you will be aware that as far as the healthcare system is concerned, the majority of us do NOT hate it (while many are rightfully frustrated); rather we are proud that our country considers health care a right & not a privilege of the rich.

Finally, the doctors are slightly impoverished compared to the US (I'm still in obscene debt and make the equivalent of 30 cents an hour); however, if it means selling my soul than I'll be more than happy to live without a car or a big house.

Posted by: Fig_Leaf at June 28, 2007 2:17 AM

Granted, the case that Moore makes for universal health care isn't entirely critic-proof -- once again, he largely eschews statistical evidence in favor of the more cinematically powerful anecdotal evidence. Nor does he, when presenting a case for the health care systems in Great Britain, Canada, and France, adequately address the many concerns that citizens in those countries have with their own systems.

Granted, Moore is allowed to have bias. But based on a cursory reading and not having seen the movie, isn't this kind of stacking the deck? I guess, one question that comes to my mind is this: what motivation does the government have to improve its healthcare system if it receives no competition from any other company?

Posted by: bonnie at June 28, 2007 2:20 AM

Typical Gen-Y Australians unite!

My private health cover from my parents has just run out (curses!), but I'm signing up because it's so totally worth it.

Medicare has its failings, but for emergency procedures you can't go wrong with the public-funded system. It's what's classifired as elective surgery that becomes an issue when one doesn't have private health cover.

I'll be in Japan in a week and a half, so I might have to wait, but will definitely recommending this one to my parents.

Posted by: Zoe at June 28, 2007 2:41 AM

yeah, how eye opening and ground-breaking, because who would have ever dreamed the health care system is fukced up?

except Moore uses bullshiat, half-lies, distortions and outright deceptions to make it look like other countries have it better. they don't. The US has the best health care system in the world. Its not perfect, but what is. Its where the richest people from all over the globe come for surgeries and treatment. Why? Because its the best in the fucking world. Moore is just demagoguing like usual. His "documentaries" may be good theater, you were certainly misty eyed, but so was I when I watched Bambi but I don't consider it a fucking documentary. Documentaries educate. Documentaries put for at LEAST a modicum of fact. Moore does none of this. You are a deluded if you think this piece of tripe is worth anything other than a commercial against HMOs, which, for all their flaws, are the best way middle class people in this country can afford good health care. And if you think its expensive and shiatty now, wait until its free, to paraphrase P.J.

Keep your job as a movie critic. You know nada about real life, so lay off the docu's, ok?

Posted by: kc at June 28, 2007 4:20 AM

except for those who can't stand Moore on principal alone

I can't believe this escaped all the grammar sticklers on pajiba! it's principle, not principal...unless somewhere out there a Michael Moore-lookalike high school principal has traumatized children into being terrified of anyone who looks faintly like him. Weh.

Thanks, bloodsugar. Noted. Corrected. -- DR

Posted by: bloodsugar at June 28, 2007 5:16 AM

Great review Dustin, I was worried that Sicko would annoy me in the same way that some of Moore's previous outings did but you've laid my fears to rest.

I will certainly watch this because the American healthcare system fascinates me. Growing up a Brit I'm used to being able to go to a doctor or into an accident and emergency department and getting treatment whether it's urgent or I'm just trying to skive off work for a couple more days. I find dealing with insurance companies an absolute headache at the best of times, even when its for something small like a stolen cellphone I can't imagine what it'd be like to have to deal with them when its your life at stake.

Then again, my knowledge of the subject is limited to the occasional news report, TV dramas and some seriously distopian fiction (although Jennifer Government isn't looking that far from the truth right about now...) I'm looking forwards to seeing this movie and being a little more educated on the subject - although bearing in mind that it's Moore obviously a little more than a pinch of salt will be required.

Pajiba comments section debates are not only fun but educational too!

Posted by: Alex the Odd at June 28, 2007 5:29 AM

I agree with Alex - coming from a country where you take free medical care for granted (Croatia) it is fascinating to see a system where people are left to their own resources, or, worst yet, to big pharmaceutical companies. however, not all is pink and dreamy in europe either - despite the large amounts that are taken from our paychecks every month for the national health systems, due to the aging societies people are forced to buy additional med insurance or pay participation every time they visit the doctor.
however, the system still works, and even though I would have to wait to visit a specialist, I would still get to see them, eventually. a lot of people in the us are not as fortunate.

Posted by: marija at June 28, 2007 8:17 AM

"I'm all for reforming the system, but just where in the HELL was your sister trying to get her wisdom teeth removed that FLYING TO EUROPE made it a cheaper option? I had all four out at one time and it cost me (without insurance) a little over $1700 for the procedure. This story sounds a little suspect to me."

Depending where you're flying from - you would be able to get that procedure done in most European countries including your flights and an overnight stay for less than $1700 easily.

I'm English, lived in the US for 5 yeas, and damn, your medical system is fucked. I had medical insurance through the company i worked for, and as it got into trouble, and the SEC took a look at it, I ended up in ER with gastric flu. Two weeks later - $1600 bill on my door - the company had suspended all insurance without telling us. One of the other workers had just had the first stage of a brain tumour operation done - and discovered he could now no longer get the rest done - thereby condemning him to death. It's a farce, a joke, one that the rest of the civilised world can barely believe. My wife (American) is still gobsmacked by our health service. Sure - people here bitch about it - but only cos they have it so easy and take it for granted. I will NEVER complain about the NHS again. 6 months ago I spent several days in hospital having all kinds of tests - then have just had my gallbladder removed, plus followups, and daily nurse visits to my home.

Cost to me? Zero. Prescriptions - all flat rated at £6.85. If you have a long term condition like thyroid problems - all prescriptions are free.

America - the land of the few that have and the majority that have not - the gap's getting wider people, wake up.

Posted by: Wandring_Soul at June 28, 2007 8:27 AM

As a Canadian I have a bit of experience with universal health care. The approach that many of us take over here, dating right back to inspiration by John Locke who was pretty darn liberal, is that the government should provide us with things that are necessary for each individual in society but that the private market won't provide with equal opportunity. It's not profitable for insurance companies to take care of sick people, but they're the ones who need insurance the most. Just as education is public to allow everyone to have as equal a chance as possible at succeeding in life (again, very liberal - you get the tools and it is up to you to work hard with them.)

I don't think it's the government taking away our freedom of choice. You can still choose to receive treatment in an alternate manner (i.e. homeopathic) or not at all. But a good (not perfect, but we're working on it) quality option is available so everyone can be assured of a basic need: health care. Especially when they are most in need of it!

Posted by: Tiki at June 28, 2007 8:50 AM

I think little sister's medical procedure was supposed to cost just under $2.5K, if I remember correctly (she needed dental xrays as well). She flew roundtrip for about $600, and the procedure there cost like $150, including meds.
She got to see her family and hang out in the motherland for a week, so it was a win-win. She works for Americorp, so it's not like she's making a million, nor does she have health insurance. $750 vs $2.5K... you do the math.
As for someone paying $1700 for all four, I don't know why the difference was so big. But even still, $750 vs $1700...

Did I exagerrate the math for dramatic effect? Yes. Did I exaggerate much? No.

What's suspect to me is why a procedure in Europe costs HALF of what it does here in the US (allowing for exchange rates).

Posted by: Stella at June 28, 2007 9:08 AM

Speaking as a Canadian, I'll take universal health care for all over a system that only works for those who have the money or private insurance to pay for their health care needs.

the fact that Canadians hate their system and come to the US for health care whenever possible seems like a pretty important point

That's a pretty extreme generalization. I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd, because I've never met a single person who's gone to the U.S. for treatment. They can't afford it.

Are there long waits in emergency rooms? Of course. Is anyone turned away because of cost? Absolutely not. Canadians might gripe about wait times and fewer doctors, but believe me, we appreciate what we do have.

Posted by: west at June 28, 2007 9:12 AM

I have to say that I, being an independent, really just find Micheal Moore offensive. I also find Coulter equally offensive. However, I do agree that the medical system in the US is absolutely beyond repair. I am a recently graduated college educated woman who pays $120 a month for health insurance. Not like it really helps given that my deductible is $5000.

The system needs help and repair. However, I really do not see how a country that is unable to agree on the simplest concept (the war, whether or not evolution is real) can even begin to work to resolve the horrors of a broken and horrendous health care "system". I can hope that people, including those like me can see past Moore himself and view the movie for what sounds like an excellent message about a very serious and oft ignored problem in America. I might actually have to see it now.

If anyone really wants to see great, cheap health care, look at the medical system in India. Maybe to begin the repair of our own system, we should start with the inane amount of lawsuits filed against medical practitioners for small things. A $50 million dollar settlement will most certainly shoot costs through the roof. Americans will sue for absolutely anything. I feel personally if we made it more difficult to file a lawsuit and dissolved some of the more moronic lawsuits, that would go a long way to starting in motion many changes that need to begin in our society. People should really look at the Indian medical system. They do not have universal health care either. Surgeries cost 1/16 there of what they do here. I think mortality rates are comparable as well.

Posted by: Melody at June 28, 2007 10:01 AM

"I really do not see how a country that is unable to agree on the simplest concept (the war, whether or not evolution is real"

Really? These are the simplest concepts to agree on?

Posted by: Ernesto at June 28, 2007 10:51 AM

I went to Mexico to get all four of my wisdom teeth removed and it ended up costing me only about $300 total. My dentist is one of five that operate out of a 6-bedroom house in Guadalajara using very up to date equipment. The only real problem was that he wouldn't take out all four at once so I had to wait a few weeks in between getting the right side and left side taken out. He did this so that I could still (theoretically) eat normally on one side of my mouth while the other side healed. I was there visiting my folks for about a month anyways so I didn't mind that much.

Posted by: milkshakesmelt at June 28, 2007 11:37 AM

Universal health care in other countries works for those who have the money to go to those countries and pay for what amounts to private medical care (it doesn't matter what country you are in, doctors will prioritize for patients who will actually pay them!). As a U.S. citizen who just happens to live and work in other (mostly 3rd world) countries, I am very familiar with the so-called universal health care plan. Recently, I had a serious health crisis of my own. I was given the option of going to one of two countries that have Universal health care. Great Britian was one of those countries, but I was STRONGLY advised not to go to GB. Why? I'm too frikkin' old. No matter how serious my ailment may have been I would have had to wait for those younger than me to receive care first. The implication is that I've already lived a full life and am now disposable. Considering I've yet to hit a mid-life crisis, even at the ripe old age of 45, I still don't feel disposable. I chose another country instead and though I did recieve care, there was no relation between the kind of care I recieved and the "Universal" healthcare system standard in that country. I had four doctors who visited me 3 times a day, yet watched others who were obviously part of the healthcare system wait in vain for their doctors to appear. (Ok so, I actually came out and asked "Why aren't they recieving care too?") In the end, my "money" bought me the best care available, not the Universal health care system. So what will universal healthcare do for the US? It will provide low level, half-assed medical care for everyone. Those who have money now will continue to get better medical care and the gap will just widen. Is there a need in the US for medical care for all? Yes. But following the standards set by Great Britain, Canada and other such countries will only lead to disaster. You wouldn't buy a car that doesn't run properly, so why would you buy into a healthcare system that doesn't run properly ? I can't claim to have answers but then, neither does Michael Moore. What he does have is a way to make his voice heard, whether he has something to say or not.

Posted by: Aurora at June 28, 2007 11:53 AM

"I feel personally if we made it more difficult to file a lawsuit and dissolved some of the more moronic lawsuits, that would go a long way to starting in motion many changes that need to begin in our society."

There are safeguards in our legal system that prevent meritless lawsuits from proceeding. Our system is not perfect, but in theory, if a medmal case has no basis it will be thrown out. That said, from personal experience I don't trust doctors, and think the threat of lawsuits is actually a positive in making them exercise proper care.

I spent a week in the hospital this year and I swear to God the doctors were going to kill me faster than my illness ever would have. All they seem interested in is overprescribing drugs, negligecting thier patients and ordering needless expensive humiliating, extremely painful and invasive testing. The drugs they had me on were making me so sick I was hospitalized for 4 extra days and made so ill I thought I would die. Since the doctors only checked on me for 2 minutes a day it took them a long time to realize they were effectively poisoning me (they only realized it after my non-doctor mother suggested that my inexplicable deterioration might be due to the drugs). A day after they took me off the drugs I was released from the hostipal. But the doctors didn't care how sick they made me or how much they bilked my health insurance for their mistake ($50K for my first day in the hospital alone). There are serious attitude problems with the healthcare providers in this country. Several of my family members work in the alternative health field and the horror stories we hear from people that were irreprably damaged physically by their dotors and then effectively abandoned by them is heartbreaking. I say sue the shit out of them (the ones who deserve it - and there are many). Maybe they will start to pay attention to what they are doing.

Posted by: Elle at June 28, 2007 12:32 PM

I love that fat fuck. He is a walking hipocracy.

Posted by: hahhaha at June 28, 2007 12:51 PM

Amen Elle! I had a hysterectomy 3 months ago and I'm sure the hospital was trying to kill me. The couldn't start and iv properly and I felt like a human dart board. After the surgery I was given very little pain medication and no attention from the nursing staff. I was sent home the next day in agonizing pain. It wasn't until later that evening when I discovered they had left behind a surgical glove inside me (which I had to remove....ewwww) that I felt better. And of course the hospital says they have no responsibility for it.
I can't even sue them because I wasn't maimed or killed.

Posted by: trixie at June 28, 2007 12:57 PM

good lordy lord trixie. I can't imagine what it was like to pull a surgical glove from your own body.

Posted by: nexus 6 at June 28, 2007 1:12 PM

I love that fat fuck. He is a walking hipocracy.

And you are a walking spelling error.

Sorry, cheap shot, I know.

Posted by: TK at June 28, 2007 1:25 PM

Mr. Moore lost his credibility with me when he admitted to playing fast and loose with the facts in order to make his point in his movies. Somehow that invalidates his point in my opinion. No doubt there are problems with health insurance in this country and this movie my wake up some people up. The old saying is that "if I knew I would live this long I'd have taken better care of myself". Well, if I knew that my health insurance would be so bad, I'd have taken better care of myself. I chose to opt out of my company provided Blue Cross a couple of years ago because of the rising cost and join Tricare, the health insurance for retired military. Now, in spite of a couple hundred doctors in my community, I have to drive 60 miles or so to a provider that will accept my insurance. I do have a primary care nurse practitioner (You didn't think I get to see a doctor, did you?) that is in my city, but anytime I need to see a specialist for tests other then blood work I have to go elsewhere. For more example of how the Feds run health care see VA hospitals or Medicare. I would encourage people to see this movie, especially anyone under 30, but think long and hard about who you want in charge of your health care as you get older. My best advice, don't get sick.

Posted by: Dan at June 28, 2007 1:30 PM

IMO, the best way to deal with our awful health care system is to try and avoid it at all costs. Eat right, exercise, don't smoke, and floss your teeth everyday to increase your odds that you only need to see a doctor or dentist for a yearly check-up (if that). And don't fall prey to our culture of illness. God, all y'all's surgery horror stories scare the shit out of me.

Posted by: katy at June 28, 2007 1:31 PM

FutureAustralian- again with only the rich deserve long healthy lives (YAWN)

Should it be "hippo"cracy?

Posted by: motherjigger at June 28, 2007 1:51 PM

I think its a brilliant idea for the government to take over medical insurance. I mean, they have done such a great job with Medicare and I am thinking I should join the Army so I can receive the exceptional care provided by the VA. Or maybe I should just go to Los Angeles County for treatment. Oh darn, they are closing "Killer" King Hospital after that poor woman was left to die on the floor. Folks, nothings for free. If you want the government to pay for health insurance then higher taxes with more waste it is! It just means that not only do I pay a fortune for my healthcare, but I get to subsidize the care of the poor. Except the poor will then get the same care as me, the MIDDLE class, which won't actually mean that the treatment of the poor will be raised to the level that the middle class receives, but rather the middle class will look forward to the treatment now being given to poor people; the same "its good enough for goverment work" treatment that county hospitals rather than for-profit hospitals provide.

Posted by: JP at June 28, 2007 2:34 PM

if you want to see a great example of how universal healthcare does NOT work, go see a great french film titled "The Barbarian Invasions" . . . then see how you feel.

Posted by: elin at June 28, 2007 2:37 PM

However, I really do not see how a country that is unable to agree on the simplest concept (the war, whether or not evolution is real)

I don't disagree with your opinion about these two topics (from what I gather) but can't you perhaps acknowledge that debate exists because they ARE complicated concepts?

Posted by: Amanda at June 28, 2007 3:15 PM

Ya I made one spelling error in one post today. Michael Moore will be fat all his life.

Posted by: hahhaha at June 28, 2007 3:24 PM

And you, sir, will be an idiot all your life.

Posted by: Great Mango at June 28, 2007 3:27 PM

The single most effective (outcomes and cost) health care system in the U.S. is the VA system. Why? Because the VA system doesn't waste a dime trying to select for the healthiest, most profitable individuals to the exclusion of the sickest, least profitable individuals. Membership in the VA system is exogenously determined. The magnitude of screening costs incurred by private insurers is staggering, but ultimately rewarding to the bottom line. The sickest handful in our society account for a majority of the health care costs. Keep them out of your plan, you profit nicely.

The other factor in the VA's favor is that membership is permanent. This enhances continuity of care and rewards prevention. Prevention isn't a good investment in the private market where the beneficiary might be your competitor (who insures your former member upon a job change).

Sure, no system is perfect. You do, on the other hand, have to correct for sample bias in the VA system (certainly the health characteristics of the average vet don't look anything like the average health characteristics of non-vets) before you can compare outcomes. When all is said and done, the care provided for the dollar in the VA system beats the private market by a mile.

As a strong neo-libertarian and a Ph.D in economics, it takes a lot to sway me in the direction of non-market solutions. However, the market distortions in health care (i.e., adverse selection, moral hazard, and the free rider problem in pharmaceutical research) necessarily result in drastically sub-optimal outcomes if left to private markets.

By the way, nice review. It might almost get me to watch a Moore documentary, which would be a first.

Posted by: Michael at June 28, 2007 3:37 PM

I am an idiot for saying Moore is fat? I mean that is one topic that can't be controversial. He is in fact fat. I believe medical science uses the term morbidly obese. So while health care is an important topic, he is probably not the best messenger. It is a kin to Bush doing a documentary on the benefits of the diplomatic process.

Posted by: hahhaha at June 28, 2007 3:54 PM

I doubt there is much controversy surrounding your intelligence level, either. I believe the medical term is "dumbass."

Posted by: Great Mango at June 28, 2007 4:00 PM

At least we are in agreement that he is fat.

Posted by: hahhaha at June 28, 2007 4:14 PM

FYI, elin, "The Barbarian Invasions" is Canadian. But technically, yeah, it's a French-language film.

Posted by: Ashley at June 28, 2007 4:40 PM

hahaha: please stop. You tried for funny, but it failed. Then you tried for sincere, but that failed too. So the message would be more valuable if he was thin? The message is about the health care system, not dieting. That's moronic, and what's worse, I suspect you KNOW it's moronic. But you won't stop beating that sad, dead horse.

And if you are simply one of those who think that being irritating is hysterically funny, let me be emphatically clear on this:

IT'S NOT.

Posted by: TK at June 28, 2007 4:49 PM

What I meant by not agreeing with simple concepts is that while most people can have an intelligent conversation about what are, yes, complex issues, the vast majority cannot. The war and evolution were the first things that came to mind. People cannot agree that the war is headed in the wrong direction. There are many things that people here do not agree on. I have given up on the elected officials fixing anything. They will side with a ridiculous opinion just because it is party line instead of stating what they actually believe.

That being said, hope that somewhat clarifies what I meant when I said that statement. Trixie, that is an horrible story. I hope that you are well now. The health care system, much like many other things in America is a seriously fucked-up mess.

Posted by: Melody at June 28, 2007 5:09 PM

Nexus 6: It was pretty fuckin' freaky to be honest! I just couldn't believe what I was seeing!

Melody: Thanks I'm feeling much better now. No thanks to the hospital! Ah well, it could definately have been worse!

Posted by: trixie at June 28, 2007 5:21 PM

Dan: Great idea to not get sick but just wishing to be well doesn't always make it so. I pay for my insurance and have pretty good insurance but the hospitals and doctors need to take some of the blame too. After my fiasco with the hysterectomy I had to go back to the hospital to be checked. I was assured that they wouldn't bill the insurance for that visit. (in the maternity ward by the way. My first and only visit)
So, of course they billed my insurance. It's all a scam and the patients are the ones who are paying with more than money.
(ok - I'll stop now. Just a teensy bit traumatized by the whole thing!)
I'd love to see the movie but I think I'll have to wait a while.

Posted by: trixie at June 28, 2007 5:27 PM

Has anyone been in a US emergency room and been treated quickly? Seriously- hours and hours with a friend with kidney stones in Indiana, 6 hours of waiting when my husband had a bleeding ulcer in Illinois... what is this argument that somehow there is no waiting in ERs in the US??

My baby? Is 16 months old. We JUST paid for her birth in full last month. We pay over $230 a month for insurance. But the emergency C-Section? That anesthesiologist? He was "out of network" and it took mountains of paperwork to get that bill reduced because when baby is half way out and gets stuck, there's no time to call to get an "in network" doctor... or maybe I should have had the c-section with no pain meds?

The craziness goes on and on. Hubby is a teacher and immunizations aren't paid for- when I called her doctor the bill would have been over $700. I went to the county and it was $60. You can't tell me that Universal Health Care isn't worth looking into. You can't tell me that making profit off of a person's health (or lack of) is something a great industrialized nation wants to do. Our infant mortality rates are shockingly bad. We are over medicated and over billed.

If our government is lacking we have no where to look but to ourselves- to the school referendums that are shot down by citizens not willing to pay more taxes, to those of us who are so concerned about keeping our money to "ourselves" we haven't noticed that we're actually losing more than we're keeping through tax cuts. We ARE the government people, like it or not. So when you bash the idea that the "government can't do it" you're saying you can't, we can't. It's not something I'm willing to concede to yet.

Posted by: lilianna28 at June 28, 2007 5:43 PM

lilianna28, that was some post.

Posted by: Ranylt at June 28, 2007 6:20 PM

We're under the national poverty level and are under the Medicaid system in CO.

I had both of my children and my tubes tied all with no cost to me. My kids are able to go to the dentist,their pediatrician and get prescriptions for no cost. It's great for us poor people, but I'm sure it sucks for docs dealing with our paperwork and it sucks for the case workers that are overworked and underpaid in the Medicaid office.
P.S. Only complaint, case worker is so overloaded it takes them at least 3 mos. to let me know if we qualify and I can NEVER get her on the phone.

Posted by: bebemiqui at June 28, 2007 6:21 PM

With regards to the "waiting" for health care/service, doesn't anyone else here in the US with insurance experience that um.......like all the time? I live in Orange County CA (where there are a LOT of uninsurance non-citizens, meaning our ER is always busy) and it's pretty average to wait for hours in the ER to get any help. I once waited in the ER with a friend who had a broken arm for 4 hours. I have a PPO and still had to take my daughter to the clinic for shots because I couldn't afford it(deductible). Then another time my doctor was booked for the day and told me to go to the clinic for care (daughter had sore throat and I work so I can only take so many days off) and the clinic said they couldn't help me cause I had insurance. I threw a huge temper tantrum screaming "My doctor can't help me, I have insurance so you can't help me and there's no way in hell I am sitting around at the ER for 4 hours" so someone helped me I belive to get me to shut up. Yeah nice system. So one has to wait for treatment that is not an emergancy, how is that any different than what I experiance now? Most doctors (if not an emergencay) is booked at least 2 weeks in advance and then you wait around for hours (because you are not "sick") Am I the only one who experiences this? Not to mentioned it cost me thousands of $$ to have my daughter (with insurance) and it was a straight forward delivery. (nothing extra) Sorry for the rant. Insurance just pisses me off. I pay and pay and then pay some more. I guess my point is the "waiting" for care thing is a problem here already.

Posted by: Debbie at June 28, 2007 6:38 PM

what are people's thoughts about health savings accounts?

Do they work? Are they worth it? Will they help anything?

Posted by: Stella at June 28, 2007 7:06 PM

"The message is about the health care system, not dieting."

I disagree that Michael Moore's weight is unrelated to the topic of health care.
Overweight people like Michael Moore will, statistically, require more medical care than people who are a healthy weight.
That is why overweight people generally have a harder time obtaining or have to pay more for health insurance -- because they are a bigger risk to the insurance companies. If I drive my car 50 miles over the speed limit while drunk, am I still entitled to low-cost car insurance? Of course not. I'm a risk.
So if Moore is arguing in favor of universal health care, then is he saying that even people who are obviously unhealthy due to their own lifestyle choices deserve free medical care?
Why should healthy people who take care of themselves be forced to bear the burden for those who do not? Should my tax dollars go towards diabetes medication for someone who can't put down the cake? Or to someone on welfare who's having their tenth child because they don't use condoms?
I get that there are people who are gravely ill who cannot afford treatment, and that is really messed up. But paying for health care for self-destructive or irresponsible people is messed up, too. I don't really know what the solution is, honestly.

Posted by: anon at June 28, 2007 9:21 PM

TK. Good post. Actually, great post.

kc. Silly post; the US does not have a good healthcare system, nor are its best doctors the best in the world - not even close (except plastic surgery for some reason...). For the record, the English and Indian doctors tend to excel (particularly in surgery), as do several European countries, which I think we're all aware of.

I'm Australian, we have pretty good healthcare, publicly available, but you can pay for private to increase optional benefits, have your own room and not have five students feel your prostate for cancer. Or try to. For the record, Malay-Ozzie medical students have skinny fingers, and as such are my favourites.

Posted by: Peter at June 28, 2007 9:41 PM

Okay, I just want to randomly enter the fray with this:
I live in the only Asian country to ever be colonized by the United States, and part of their stellar heritage has been their template for the public health system. You don't have to spend much time in my country to realize that such a system really widens the already yawning divide between the haves and have nots.

Posted by: bloodsugar at June 28, 2007 10:05 PM

Anyone who is insured or has been uninsured for most of their lives knows that the health care system is messed up. The HMOs, the expensive medicines...at his rate it's cheaper to try holistic medicine like acupuncture or homeopathy to cure basic immune system ailments. Moore does not have to tell me it is either, it's pretty damn obvious when you live in a city with one of the highest rates of homelessness and immigrant populations in the country. Maybe it should be socialized, I got sick in Argentina with a UTI once, sure I waited almost 8 hours in pain to be treated, but it was FREE and the medicine cost $6. I think that's more fair than this country's health care system will EVER be! Too many fingers in too many "pies" is the problem we're dealing with right now, it's all about the drug companies vs. health insurance! It's not even about people anymore!

Posted by: Duh at June 28, 2007 10:47 PM

I saw Moore on the Tonight Show this week and I have to say that without the self-righteous attitude he was...tolerable. Borderline pleasant.

Now all he has to do is lose the pre-op Peter Jackson chins and he's set.

Posted by: Editor's pet at June 28, 2007 11:00 PM

"Should my tax dollars go...to someone on welfare who's having their tenth child because they don't use condoms?"


Do you know anything about the welfare system? Do you know that under federal guidelines you can only get welfare for a lifetime total of five years? And that states have the right to decrease that limit (Ohio, for instance, has a limit of two years)? Your money isn't going to anyone for their tenth kid, trust me. Read up on TANF before you spew crap like this, okay? And pray that you're never in a situation where you need cash assistance to feed, clothe, and house your babies.

Posted by: Shannon at June 28, 2007 11:45 PM

Well, has anyone here discussed the costs associated with a "Universal Health care" system? The actual amount of tax dollars from the public that are required? France is a prime example. 50% income tax, 15% payroll tax and close to a 6% sales tax...and they are still billions in the RED! It is not free health care, not by a god damn long shot. I admit those taxes are also high because of France being a horridly socialist state, but still people, it costs a lot of money. And because they run in the red, procedures are rationed and some forms of disease are not really cared about as well as certain age groups. Some forms of cancer etc (especially considering the persons age) just are not given even close to a priority. The care needs to be rationed in socialized systems. Waiting lists do happen often, sometimes months at a time, and the diagnostics are sometimes really needed but just cannot be given at that time. Our system is not perfect, I do not need veteran propagandist Mr. Moore to tell me that, but just saying we should adopt other socialized systems because they are "so rad and sweet" is bad business.

Posted by: Gigantor at June 29, 2007 12:17 AM

Does Michael Moore even address insurance companies--that they lead healthcare by the nose and dictate to whom and how much treatment can be given? If my mom ever gets tested for the "breast cancer gene" (I can't think of the name right now), my sisters and I will not get treatment covered for breast cancer because of a "pre-existing condition." I really think some of this wrath should be directed towards the insurance companies, because they have nothing to do with client care and satisfaction and everything to do with making money.

Posted by: bonnie at June 29, 2007 1:52 AM

Actually, bonnie, from what I've read about the movie (haven't seen it yet), I think Moore's focus IS on the insurance companies. The people he profiles do not receive the quality care that the US system can and does offer because their insurance companies refuse to pay for it.


And, to give another view from Canada, I can't imagine living here without some form of private health care plan to supplement "universal" health care, because our system does not pay for many prescription drugs. You could have a hundred-thousand dollar operation fully paid for by the government, but if there was a hundred-dollar-a-month drug therapy that would do the same job, you would most likely have to pay for it yourself.

Posted by: Daphne at June 29, 2007 2:47 AM

I just want to cheerlead a bit for Canada's system, but also affect a serious tone while describing it's problems...so here goes:

Delivering my babies? Free. Also free: my cervical cancer treatment, my father-in-law's prostate cancer cure, my nana's cataracts and diabetic therapies, my brother's anaphylactic shock ER visit, my mother's MRI, all vaccinations (now including the kids chicken pox shots)...I could go on.

I'm (currently) dirt poor but my lifestyle here in BC is a complete premium joy. When I am better equipped to start clockin' ducats again, I'll be happy to spend my hard earned cash on this system. It is what a good hearted country should do for its' citizens.

On the flip side, we are not accrediting immigrant health care professionals properly (leaving them to drive taxis and work at 7-11 which is insulting), the bureaucracy is bloated and full of milquetoasts (I worked on a project that took 40 people five separate meetings to okay a $3k expenditure) and the whole thing is being systematically and cold-bloodedly financially starved by our current local government in order to promote privatization. (Glen Campbell, there shall be a reckoning!)

Overall, it's a question of whether money can be pried from the grip of the haves in order to benefit the have-nots. I truly don't understand why the cursed stuff has become so precious. I suppose that if my life depended on it (having ready cash), I wouldn't be so cavalier about it. I worry that your current system has hardened everyone against risking the change.

(I should probably disclose that I have been once-wealthy and privileged, and so do understand that it is hard to earn the loot and even harder to face it going to excessive taxes.)
There will always be waste and inadequacy in large systems, but it is worth it for all of you.

Posted by: rebeccah at June 29, 2007 3:56 AM

And, to give another view from Canada, I can't imagine living here without some form of private health care plan to supplement "universal" health care, because our system does not pay for many prescription drugs.

Very true, but that should be put in perspective. Most (non-minimum wage) jobs in Canada cover you automatically for dental and prescription drugs at about 1/10 the annual cost to the employee of a US plan (from what commentators are saying above, anyway). I've had amazing dental/drug plans while working for every conceivable type of organization: government, non-profit, private and academic institution (even as grad student); I normally pay under $300 a year (often less), and walk away from the pharmacist's counter with my wallet unopened (or pay a $10 dispensing fee, depending on the plan).

But drugs do cost you if you're unemployed...when you can least afford them. Sux.

Posted by: Ranylt at June 29, 2007 7:12 AM

Obviously I haven't seen this yet, but I understand that Micheal's view of the NHS is a little on the rosy side.

I can tell you that it's not perfect. There can be long waits for certain procedures; some regions don't have enough budget for all the drugs they need; and there seems to be way too many managers.
But the thing is, despite its faults it generally works.

There are many great things about the USA, but frankly, your approach to health care is looked upon with disbelief by the rest of the Western World.

Here in the UK, you know that if you turn up at Accident & Emergency, there will be no quibbling about your insurance and your bank balance before they stitch you back up, plug any holes or reattach any limbs!

I hope you guys get well soon.

Posted by: Simon B at June 29, 2007 8:28 AM

SHANNON!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for addressing the TANF thing before I exploded into a rage. As someone who works with poor families for a living, I get furious with these misconceptions. People fail to realize that the vast majority of needy families receiving assistance are actual needy families, not just lazy breeders who eat bon bons all day. Are there those who abuse the system? Of course. But the majority do not.

Stop getting your "knowledge" from Fox news and do some actual research, people.

Posted by: TK at June 29, 2007 9:11 AM

Wow, Thanks for the heads up there bro. I guess I will stop getting my "knowledge" from Fox News. Instead I will turn to CNN, right after I get done watching the Cafferty file and Larry King interviewing Paris Hilton...I gotta get my "hard news" first.

Posted by: Gigantor at June 29, 2007 9:17 AM

And as for our sweet Welfare System, things have definitely changed since 1994 and the Contract with America. Although before that it was admittedly a god damn mess.

Posted by: Gigantor at June 29, 2007 9:21 AM

Shannon, Thanks for your post, I totally agree with you! Anon: I was really upset when I read what you said about the poor and people with diabetes. It seems like you have no understanding of the welfare system and you think it is ok to mock people with health issues that you obviously don't understand. and maybe I am cynical and reading to much into this, but it seems like it is all because you wants to make yourself feel better about caring more about yourself then all the people who are getting inadequate care.

Posted by: Erin at June 29, 2007 9:49 AM

On Michael Moore being obese: He's addressed that as an issue on at least 2 radio interviews a few months ago- he had been doing a great job of losing weight and then kind of... stopped. He even admitted he found it a little hypocritical to be so overweight and talk about health care. Since he is a lot heavier since the last time I saw him on tv a few month ago, I would venture a guess that he's a stress eater (I am a definite stress eater!) because he does look heavier. (wish I could find a link to an interview where he talks about it... I'll search more)

Posted by: lilianna28 at June 29, 2007 10:33 AM

Being Canadian I would never ever ever move to the US. There are several reasons for that but a huge one is the medical system. I have relatives there and unless you're rich it's shit. In Canada you don't effing die because you can't afford medical attention... which I think should be a RIGHT for human beings. The US is not a poor country and it has no excuse for letting people die. The rich just do not give a shit about the poor.

Posted by: Kathryn at June 29, 2007 5:13 PM

I am really surprised by the anger directed at Moore because of his weight. I don't see the hypocrisy of calling for health care reform if you're not in perfect shape. Getting involved in an accident where you need emergency care has little to nothing to do with your weight and the examples of a complete lack of compassion in those cases (ring vs middle finger) are what shocked me the most.

I just watched the movie and while he does seem very enamored of the French system, at no point does he advocate taking any of the UHC systems he profiles wholesale. I got the impression that he was saying we should take a look at what these countries are doing right and try to emulate/improve on it while fixing their problems. A lot of commentators here seem too eager to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Posted by: Tuck at June 29, 2007 5:41 PM

The assumption is that the police, fire dept., post office & schools are effective.

If those services are so good why are there security guards, fire extinguishers, locks, FedEx, & private schools? Yes, I'm oversimplifying the position, but one of the downsides of freedom is being a loser. Removing choice and then making people pay for something that doesn't work is wrong. You would bust a kidney if Merck did it, but you're hoping that Barbara Boxer and John McCain do remove choice.

I don't want Gary Condit & Orin Hatch running hospitals just as I don't want them in charge of the environment or how your kids are educated. Providing a choice is a fine thing, and if government can do it competitively, fine, but it's always done more efficiently privately.

Laser Eye surgery has gotten safer, less expensive and more efficient. It's not covered by insurance. People aren't cavalier with their vision, so if the procedure was unsafe, literally no one would do it. And the laser surgeons don't have some upsell or loss leader to make a profit on.

Comsmetic dentistry, cosmetic surgery... same thing. Better, less expensive, safer. No insurance.

There are several charities assisting people who can't afford to correct severe dental problems with cosmetic dentistry.

Yes, I'm aware that a new pair of holy hurling heavers is different than chemotherapy, but we all know that if someone else is paying for it, the instances of abuse rise.

A safety net is a nice thought, too, but an easy way to get votes is to tell people that you'll get them something for free. "You're only getting 2 doctor's visits a year. When I'm elected, you will receive 6 MRIs a year! Those greedy insurance companies have got to stop profiting off the deaths of our children!"

Right?

Looking forward to dismissal because I don't demonize business.

Posted by: dean cameron at June 29, 2007 7:17 PM

It's not about demonizing business. It is entirely probable (if very unlikely) that insurance companies can provide efficient health care. But as the current situation is demonstrating, this is not happening. Even if some people abuse a nationalized health service, it is better than leaving nearly 15% of the country uninsured.

Posted by: Tuck at June 29, 2007 10:16 PM

Movie was pretty good. Some of the health insurance experiences in the film were pretty spot on.

Am I just paranoid or does there seem to be a high surge in the promotion of France in film this summer ie. Ratatouille, Paris je t'aime, Sicko? Maybe it's because I've seen these all these films in a span of two weeks but curiously I now have the urge to take a trip...

Posted by: Lex at June 30, 2007 12:42 AM

Hey now, only one Daphne on the site at a time! That's clearly not me as: 1) don't live in Canada, although I'm dying to visit, 2) no expletives. I gotta throw a damn, hell, or something in my posts almost every time.

Remember kiddies: regular Daphne has a dirty pirate mouth.

Anyway, given the lengthy discussion, I have nothing meaningful to contribute that hasn't already been said. So, carry on, intelligent people.

Posted by: Daphne at June 30, 2007 1:12 AM

@ rebeccah: Great post! But you wrote "(Glen Campbell, there shall be a reckoning!) Might I remind you our esteemed BC premier is named GORDON Campbell. But I for one would gladly trade him for an aging C&W singer. Thanks for the (inadvertant)giggle!

As for the rest, fascinating debate. I feel for all those who would like to see change in the US healthcare system. The Canadian system isn't perfect and I don't doubt MM protrays it through a rose coloured lens in the film. (And yes, coloured is spelled the Canadian way with a "U", spelling police.) But at 42 years old and the mother of 3 children, one of whom enjoys extreme sports, I personally have few complaints. I do my best to keep myself and my family healthy and am conscious of not abusing the system.

In this country, we have developed an ethic of care of which I am very proud. It has become intrinsic to most modern Canadians' concept of national identity. Many of the arguments against universal healthcare that I see here, just don't seem to get it. It's about compassion and community. Yeah, sure it involves some sacrifices like higher taxes and less money for the military but most of us think it's worth it. And BTW, our economy is doing pretty well right now and we've even managed to reduce our national debt in recent years.

Just as a point of interest, y'all should know that Tommy Douglas, grandad of Kiefer Sutherland of "24" fame, is considered the father of Canadian medicare and was voted Greatest Canadian Hero a couple years back. So really the solution to the US healthcare crisis is simple, non?
Just get the president to call Jack Bauer to fix it!

Posted by: amie at June 30, 2007 4:33 PM

Great review. Great movie. I'm really disappointed by the tone so many comments have.
Why am I surprised at the number of Americans who have the "if you can't afford health care, suck it" attitude?

Posted by: kimmyhula at June 30, 2007 6:03 PM

I have not had health insurance since I graduated from college in 1994. I am now 37. I've am self-employed, and can't afford the extra cost to insure myself. I work as a personal trainer. My job is to get people healthy through weight loss, corrective exercise, physical rehab, and promoting healthy eating choices. I feel that my work actively keeps my clients out of their doctor's office. I love my work, and take great pleasure and pride in owning my own business. Still, there are times when I think I should let my company go under, and look for a job with health insurance. So, I ask you, how pro-biz is this system that puts that kind of pressure on a hard-working, american capitalist like myself? Thank god MM made this movie. I saw it yesterday, and feel it is one of the most important films of my lifetime.

Posted by: Ohlee at June 30, 2007 6:24 PM

I can agree that just blindly promoting universal health care is not the solution. But I think lots of people's problems with UHC or similar systems, is the potential for abuse, and the fact that they'll have to pay for that abuse.

And I can see that as a problem, but there are solutions for everything, and throwing UHC as an argument because of possible problems without discussing how they can be fixed is pointless.

To me it's a fundamental difference of perspective. I believe that everyone deserves the right to not have to worry about paying for even basic medical care. And if that requires me to help pay for the community, it's worth it.

That being said, it's an issue that has to be resolved on many fronts: getting care for all, prevention programs and developing a national responsibility for our own health. It is true that lots of medical care, conditions and problems, can be avoided with some lifestyle changes.

There is no easy answer, but that doesn't mean we don't try to fix things.

Posted by: Eric at June 30, 2007 6:34 PM

dean cameron:
I think your point would have been fine had you not included locks and fire extinguishers, both preventative measures rather than alternatives.

anon:
I think smoking would have been the best possible argument in regards to the cost of medical care.

I severely doubt the intentions behind founding a government are based upon being taken care of, but rather upon being protected from harm. Perhaps an argument could be made for providing emergency medical services as tax-based services so that everyone could benefit from them, but I would not go further. Creating a culture of dependency does not create a culture ready to change its own government, but merely ready to whine about it.

Posted by: different anon at June 30, 2007 6:35 PM

I would not call it "hypocritical" per se for a morbidly obese man to champion the cause of health care reform, but obesity is By FAR the biggest tax on America's health care system. Obesity leads to hypertension, diabetes, heart disease, some cancers, kidney stones and death. It impacts peoples moods, can lead to depression, sleep apnea and erection problems and the need for psyche drugs. It impacts peoples joints and muscles, is a major factor in osteoarthritis, especially the knees and back, which then result in chiro treatment and surgeries. This results in a lowered earning capacity for much of the work force. Nearly two-thirds of Americans are now overweight, over a third of us are obese. There have been even higher estimates that as many as eight million Americans are morbidly obese. Having a pre-disposition to obesity is simply no excuse. Reponsibility falls on parents who allow there children to become obese. As adults, people have the capacity to make lifestyle changes that can save their own life. Properly addressing the obesity issue would lower insurance premiums and health care costs by a considerable sum.

Posted by: JP at June 30, 2007 7:36 PM

The question is, why are people entitled to health care? Why should government thugs forcibly steal money and give it to someone else who is suffering because of the poor choices they made?

Now, I agree that health care in this nation is a mess, primarily because the people receiving the care are not the ones paying for it. The free market is not allowed to work because of government regulation, AMA monopolistic practices, the pharmo-insurance-medical cabal, and the tax rules that necessitate the tying together of insurance and employment.

Posted by: Josh at June 30, 2007 9:00 PM

I'm just back from watching the movie. What a show, love him, or hate him, the movie will cause thinking. Being from Canada and recently moved to southern California I think maybe I should go home before some one busts me in the chops and I need stitches. Hate the feeling that I can't accidentally trip in this country cause I can't afford a finger splint.

Posted by: kevin at June 30, 2007 9:44 PM

Wow! I just saw this movie and if most Americans would simply go see it no matter what their political affiliation; they'd see the verified facts (CNN 6/30). Ask yourself after seeing the film - given a choice, which would you prefer? A) Your for-profit health insurance company to continue deciding your medical options as they do today by denying you what is covered, what is not covered and of what they will cover, what percentage they'll pay or B) Universal health care where you and your doctor are in total control of what can be treated and how without regard to your ability to pay?

Face it, your physician can't override the slimeball insurance company and you can't even sue them for hurting you! When your physician determines you need a particular treatment and the insurance company disagrees because they don't want to pay - guess who wins? Not you! At least all of the government run healthcare programs in countries such in Canada, the UK and France are motivated to keep you healthy all the time while in the US, insurance companies want you only as long as your are healthy while you can pay - when you can't, they'd rather see you in a box!

Health care for profit is no better an idea than a fire department for profit - they'd bypass the burning homes of those that couldn't pay.

You'd think our constitution read "Of the Corporation, By the Corporation and For the Corporation". Democrat or Republican, we have the best government that corporations can buy.

Posted by: Mike at June 30, 2007 9:44 PM

Josh, By that logic, why should you be entitled to be serviced by the fire department?

Posted by: Mike at June 30, 2007 9:48 PM

Mike,

I think that the issue of fire departments should be handled by insurance companies. If someone then were to be uninsured, and their house burned down, tough luck.

Posted by: Josh at July 1, 2007 3:06 AM

I think the best and easist way for the government to ease the health care burden is through subsidization. If the government can do one thing well its taxes. This is coming from a full fledged Republican, but blasphemy be damned. Subsidize health care through heavy taxation of tabacco products, junk food, firearms and alcohol (and this comes from someone who loves himself some whiskey). For the cost of treating vehicle accidents there are already laws in place requiring insurance, and those premiums can be taxed. Same with workplace injuries which have there own set of laws for insurance and treatment. Bringing in taxes from these sources is a counter measure to the 5 largest causes of illness/injuries in America. The taxes should 100% be set aside for medical care. The government can put caps on health care profits, with anything above the cap going back into the system. The government then should require that carriers cover a laundry list of certain treatments and procedures, and put carriers on a universal approval system like CMS (if CMS approves it so must the carrier). The profits would come from limiting billing by doctors to 120% of what Medicare pays and from the free market place via contracting with medical providers, i.e. , you can get the treatment, but through the approved medical provider network. The provider network charges the carrier a lower rate then it would to you or me. In exchange, the carriers get laws that benefit them, such as tax incentives and lawsuit shields. Also, with the subsidies the government can guarantee the carriers a minumum level of profits. After the carriers policy limits are reached the money received by the government from taxing tobacco, alcohol, etc. would be used as a form of reinsurance. Laws are being enacted to cut out the worst fats from our diets and smoking is being banned all over the place. This is a much better approach then universal medical. In this sense, the government is not the first source of medical care, but remains a guarantee that treatment is available.

Posted by: JP at July 1, 2007 3:42 AM

listen up, my American friends:

YOU CAN AFFORD UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!

just do it--it's great!! (not perfect, but nothing is perfect)

sincerely,

a Canadian friend

Posted by: ! at July 1, 2007 10:31 AM

I'm a American in Spain and I pay $37 a month for rockstar private healthcare (I'm not eligible for the public system here). Lots of preventative medicine, subsidised pharmaceuticals, doctors who actually sit down and talk to you, and no waits. And no bills. Ever. No deductibles, no copays, nothing. I don't even know how much the stuff costs, they just scan my card and send me home.
The question is, if Spain can do that, why can't the US??? Needless to say, I'm never coming back.

Posted by: LisaS at July 1, 2007 11:52 AM

"I am really surprised by the anger directed at Moore because of his weight. I don't see the hypocrisy of calling for health care reform if you're not in perfect shape. Getting involved in an accident where you need emergency care has little to nothing to do with your weight and the examples of a complete lack of compassion in those cases (ring vs middle finger) are what shocked me the most."

First, there is a difference between perfect shape and morbid obesity. Secondly, physical shape has a great deal to do with health care reform. The better physical shape you are in you tend to cost the system less money over your lifetime. People who are overweight (by choice not medical condition), addicted to drugs, etc. Cost everyone who pays into the system money. They are a greater insurance liability and the increase in care for those individuals is then distributed across the masses. The same would be true of "universal" health care. Basically, some one who keeps themself physically fit via exercise, diet, and moderation in lifestyle gets cheated by the system as they have to pay for additional costs that they never benefit from. Michael Moore being a fatty is part of why the current system does not work and why universal health care won't work either. It is not his fatness per se, but his physical condition. It would be the same argument if it was found out he had a cocaine habit or alcohol problem, etc.

p.s. TK putting things in bold and capitalizing them doesn't make you right, it just makes you louder.

Posted by: hahhaha at July 1, 2007 12:37 PM

For those of you that think obesity has nothing to do with health care.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/433/overview_impact.pdf

Posted by: hahhaha at July 1, 2007 4:40 PM

If you've had any experience with health care outside the US, it definitely forces you to reevaluate our system. I live in Germany, which has a mix of public/private insurance. Most people have public insurance, and money is taken out of their paycheck each month similar to the way that insurance through your job in the US works. Two differences: you pay only 10 euros per quarter for all medical care that you might receive. Nothing more at the doctor, hospital, or medication. Also, if you lose your job, you automatically have the state cover your health insurance costs, so you can't lose your job AND lose your health care.

If you want, you can also get private insurance, which entitles you to a private room in hospital or other perks. But the quality of the care between public and private is NOT substantially different. There are no wait times for things like MRIs. Things like prenatal yoga, postnatal fitness classes, and rest cures in the Canary Islands are covered by both public and private insurance. And both systems are profitable. My family had a situation recently where we did have to pay some medical bills for a 2-week hospitalization. The total cost was $2,500. In the US it would have been astronomically more -- we would have likely gone bankrupt.

In the US, we had a typical Blue Cross plan. We paid over $400 per month for our family of 4, plus 20% of medical bills. We're paying thousands of dollars ... and then also have to deal with the insurance company trying to get out of everything. I'm not a Michael Moore fan. I've never voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. But seriously, the American health care system is a disaster and we've got to do better.

Posted by: Lilywise at July 1, 2007 5:19 PM

In France, after having a baby, a woman is given help with chores like laundry. In the US would people really want a worker from the Government coming into their home? Seems kind of humorous after government wiretapping, eavesdropping, and arrests of protesters-who are common in France.

Posted by: jefo at July 1, 2007 5:44 PM

Oh man. I wish I would've gotten here sooner, because my hatred of the healthcare system has been pretty fucking overwhelming for about eight years now, and my opposition to the mere notion of universal healthcare run by our incompetent government is just as fierce.

Alas, 129 comments later, my opinion is irrelevant, even to me.

Oh, yeah, the film. I hate Moore, but I'll see it. I enjoy getting whipped up into a froth of over this subject.

I am always sort of scared of people, however, who need Michael Moore to open their eyes to something. This shit isn't news, and it affects every single person I know, whether it's through exorbitant healthcare costs, dangerous drugs prescribed for no reason other than because that particular drug company came through with the best bribe, or no healthcare at all. I can't see anyone NOT being aware of the crisis in this country.

Posted by: juliagulia at July 2, 2007 12:15 AM

What a terrible review of a terrible movie. Here's a better one.

Posted by: Uncle Mikey at July 2, 2007 1:03 AM

dear canadian friend,

would you want YOUR health in the hands of the united states government?

:(

i wish i knew what the fix was. the system is broken as it is, but if the us government can't provide decent healthcare to the vets we've sent off to get maimed in iraq, i don't see how they could possibly fucking take care of me.

Posted by: juliagulia at July 2, 2007 1:13 AM

The current U.S. system is flawed due to this very real threat---even when you pay for insurance, your insurance company can refuse your benefits! VERY SIMPLE--pay monthly insurance dues---expect to be covered----receive letter in mail stating the services you received aren't covered by your plan. Doesn't that scare the shit out of you? If it doesn't, may you never become ill in this country.

As a Canadian living in the U.S., I have heard of long waits in Canada for non-emergency procedures. But know this...EVERY member of my family as well as my husband's family has received emergency surgery and excellent follow-up care when they required it. No wait time, and nobody lost their home because of it! May the Canadian medical system *never* become privatized! ~~shudder~~

Posted by: WILDROSE at July 2, 2007 5:28 AM

The problem I have with any Moore project is that he has an agenda - not unlike a used car salesman. Therefore, anything he says is suspect and should be received with utmost cynicism, if not outright rejected. As such, whatever he has to say is not worth my time or the ticket price.

Posted by: codefool at July 2, 2007 8:22 AM

I just want to say that THIS Movie is very well done.
We as the people of the United States of America need to do SOMETHING about this issue together. I do not care who you are Democrat, Republican Liberal, White, Purple, Black , Pink, Asian, Green, ETC........ I know that we care about each other and our Future I just think we need to speak up and DO something major about it.

Posted by: Kattie at July 2, 2007 9:31 AM

Josh, you are either a really mean spirited- selfish person or you are just dumb. You arguments make no sense. You really have no understanding of how our health care works, or doesn't, if you think that the problem is caused by people who receive the government subsidised health care. Also your statement about fire departments is deplorable. I think that your lack of compassion makes you pretty worthless. I know that is a horrible thing to say about any person, but I am sick and tired of that kind of attitude. I think you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such things.

Posted by: Erin at July 2, 2007 10:44 AM

To those who would not have our government run our healthcare: it's too bad they already do.

They're the ones who essentially chose this system for the United States... if you had so much faith in private companies, why won't you let public healthcare compete? Maybe it would force private companies to reform for the better, because if they didn't they'd go bankrupt. Isn't that why capitalism thrives? It's because of competition and choice. The way I see it, there is no competition, nor choice. You think choice is being able to decide from Aetna, Kaiser, and BlueCross? That's like having to choose from getting your right or left arm cut off. It's the same, bad situation.

I'm 19 and healthy, and I just recently had an incident where I needed care. I pay for my own health insurance... my physician didn't give a shit about me and told me that the cure to my throat swelling (most likeley from some allergy) is to keep eating cough drops. I told him I was averaging a bag of 25 each day and he said that it was okay!

I begged to differ, and saw a private doctor which costed me out of pocket. Low and behold, I got treated, but I had to pay for all the tests and drugs myself. You think the healthcare system is good for those who are wealthy? I would consider myself affluent, and I still had to go through all this bullshit to get some damn treatment. In the midst of my incident, I realized how someone that didn't have any money, wouldn't have had the options that I did.

And quite frankly, that's fucked up.

Posted by: Natasha at July 2, 2007 12:18 PM

Silly me. With all my talk of the obese and the smokers I have neglected to discuss the absolutely number 1 reason why we can't have universal healthcare and why all you youngsters on this site are asking for a world of hurt. Its called getting old, and this country is getting more old folks then we have young people to pay for them. And these people are living longer than ever before. So besides already being on the hook for Social Security (you may have heard about that little problem of more people retiring then entering the workforce) its not exactly in our best interests to also be on the hook for more healthcare costs. Now, I know what you are saying. We already pay for these old folks via Medicare. Not quite. Only those 65+. But there are going to be a whole lot more people 50 to 64 then there are people 25 to 40. The thing is, these 50+ people need much more care than us youngsters, and they are much more likely to be able to afford it. They are also more capable of bearing the brunt of higher taxes for universal health care, and they will be the ones who upgrade to the proverbial "nicer model" of healthcare via supplementing with private insurance. These are the people with the fully stocked 401k's. You are the people who are putting in less than 3% towards your 401ks, if anything. They are the people who have paid of there mortgages on their houses which have increased over 250% in the last 10 years. You are the people with adjustable mortgages that are going up, up, up.

Posted by: JP at July 2, 2007 2:18 PM

A blog focused on conservative southeast Idaho has started a discussion on the merits of Michael Moore's Sicko.

See if you agree with the points, and if health care or Michael Moore's tactics are discussed more:
http://idahofallz.com/2007/07/02/michael-moores-sicko-is-americas-health-care-system-sick/

Posted by: Idaho Falls at July 2, 2007 2:19 PM

this guy will tell you one side of the story leaving the rest blank, hes just really good at persuading people into his ideas, hitler was sorta like that..hes a goddamn hippy and should shut the fuck up about our government which has gotten so much better since we put a republican back in office fixing up whhat that fuckin retarted liberal fucked up, go president bush.

Posted by: dominic at July 2, 2007 2:45 PM

"The question is, why are people entitled to health care? Why should government thugs forcibly steal money and give it to someone else who is suffering because of the poor choices they made?"




Idiot. It's not about poor choices, it's about Insurance companies legally raping people of their money and not even covering them when shit hits the fan.

Posted by: Deez at July 2, 2007 5:09 PM

JP, you fail to recognize the fact that in addition to there being more older people, people are working much longer than they once did. It's not unheard of for people to work until 65-70 nowadays.

Also, this discussion about Moore's weight is idiotic. Are people seriously saying that because he is overweight, he forfeits the right to talk about the health care system in America? For that reason alone? That's dumb. I sincerely hope that all of those protesting the film's integrity on those grounds don't smoke, don't have high blood pressure or high cholestoral or any of the other ailments that are essentially caused by your own choices.

Finally, hahaha - if you had chosen to start your discussion in the intelligent, moderated tone you're using now, I would never have had to write that. But you didn't - instead, you went with the immature, irritating "look at the fatso" tactic. That's why I wrote what I wrote. I'm fine with discourse, but that's not what you set out to do. And you know it.

Posted by: TK at July 3, 2007 9:28 AM

Yeah, the federal government has done such a brilliant job lately. They've successfully falsely created a war, driven that war into chaos and sucked at running it, ruined Social Security, botched Medicare and Medicaid, overpsent themselves at every step of the process for 20 years, they aren't corrupt in the slightest and they never lie.

It's a GREAT idea to give them control over health care. Yeah, keep dreaming you liberal pansies.

Posted by: Jeremiah at July 3, 2007 11:56 AM

poor choices?

you think cancer or cerebral palsy or MS or cystic fibrosis or someone hitting you in a car accident is a result of our own poor choices?

keep drinking that health insurance industry kool-aid.

if anything we blow billions of dollars on bad health care now.

what's the harm of spending the same billions of dollars and at least getting decent health care?

Posted by: dude at July 3, 2007 1:41 PM

Jeremiah, it's the Republicans who have been against universal healthcare that have overspent themselves, so you can think that the government isn't capable of running universal healthcare.

You are thinking exactly the way they want you to.

Posted by: Natasha at July 4, 2007 3:44 AM

saw the film. called my mom afterwards to thank her and dad for moving the family to Canada 20yrs ago and for letting me move to France to study. i think i'll stay here.

Posted by: causaubon at July 5, 2007 10:16 AM

Ashley et al:

Our public schools are funded primarily by the individual states, not the federal govt. Bitch to state & local govt re: school funding/performance & the fed govt for bs legislation like NCLB.

Posted by: Seth at July 5, 2007 4:18 PM

"In France, after having a baby, a woman is given help with chores like laundry. In the US would people really want a worker from the Government coming into their home?"

I'd permit Cheney himself to come over if he had a bottle of Tide in hand.

Posted by: samantha t at July 5, 2007 6:56 PM

Only in America will people want the goverment to take a better grip on health care while Congress is sitting at a 14% approval rate.

Don't people understand that when government gets involved, things cost more and move a hell of a lot slower? This was like the firs tthing I learned in Economics 101.

Posted by: Allen at July 6, 2007 2:31 PM

Just a little blurb for the people out there saying the Post Office is run and owned by the federal government. Since 1971, the only thing the Post Office gets from the government is a monopoly on first class mail. That is why postage goes up so often. It is no longer subsidized by the federal government. Having worked before and after the change, I think it works much better on its own. Also, if anyone has made a concious decision to not work, when they are able, they should live under a bridge. Conversely, anyone who is elderly or sick should be taken care of.

Posted by: richard m at July 9, 2007 11:01 AM

I lived in Germany for ten years - during that time I was insured both under the national insurance and also under the private insurance.

Under both I had 100% freedom of choice for hospitals and doctors. I had a chip card that I presented to any medical care facility and they were then able to bring up my records and treat me without filling out paperwork at each place.

My average monthly expenditure was about $125 for this insurance. It was a percentage of my salary and everyone was on the same scale. In Germany everyone is insured by law, by the insurance companies if you are employed and by the government if you are not.

When I got back to the US I bought and paid for the plan nearest to what I had in Germany. My insurance bill was then $500 a month for my wife and I. And the coverage was good. I didn't use it but my wife did. However some of the drugs she was prescribed were not covered and so that added another $3-400 a month to our bills while she was on them. But then the insurance company decided that the group plan was too expensive to maintain in Colorado and we were left with having to obtain insurance at a much higher rate with far less coverage.

The problem is that we are trying to insure ourselves against that which is inevitable. Getting sick is something that happens to us all.

Of course insurance companies are going to do all they can to minimize their payouts - that is what they are supposed to do. Only we are talking about life here and not possessions.

A collective such as we are ought to be able to provide care for those who need it, ought to be able to promote prevention and ahcieve a state where people take responsibility for their health.

We are however so commercialized and so fearful of going bankrupt and losing all of our toys that we spend our time desperately living an existence rather than enjoying a life.

The Germans are highly taxed - up to a 65% bracket. Yet they take more vacations than any other people on Earth. How is that possible in a socialist economy? Because instead of spending tax dollars on war machines they spend it on their people. And because the people don't have to contend with huge medical bills in the form of outrageous "co-pays" for costs they can't control or negotiate they have more money for things like vacations.

I had an MRI two years ago to see about the chronic back pain. Since my wife's father is a doctor I got to see the bills. The cost to me were I not insured for the MRI - $5500. The cost to the HMO for the same MRI $600 - my copay $180 or 30%.

Why should the same procedure cost almost ten times as much for a private individual? Perhaps this is because the HMO can demand a low price, or because they do so much business with the hospital , or they own the hospital, I don't know. I do know that this disparity is out of line and should not exist.

People talk about the costs - what about all the administrative costs? The price of all that paperwork that flows between the patient, doctor, hospital and HMO/PPO could easily pay for a social system. What about the human cost in damage to our pysche from the stress induced by being in a system that requires endless paperwork and communication and requests for permission and wait and anxiety? What about the doctors who have only five minutes per patient because the HMO requires a quota on patients seen each day?

Now add in the pressure from Big Pharma to get us all hooked on drugs. And not cheap drugs either, but expensive ones. I live in China now. The same drugs - from the SAME companies - cost pennies here compared to hundreds of dollars in the USA for the same doses.

So the doctors get pressure from the HMO to prescribe less and pressure from the Pharma companies to prescribe more. Who loses? The patient does. Most of the time spent seeking care is spent on the bureacracy of it and the least amount on the actual getting of it.

The bureacracy I had to deal with in Germany was filling out the initial forms about my state of health, getting an exam to have a starting point for their system and getting my chip card. After that I never filled out another form again. I never had to speak with the insurance company. I saw the doctors where and when I needed to.

"If we can find money to kill people, then we can find money to heal them" - British guy in Sicko.

Posted by: jb at July 9, 2007 11:04 PM

My boyfriend recently broke his hand. We went to the emergency room and waited 24 hours! Noone would check up on him until I complained, and they still treated him horribly when they did. They said they were going to give him a splint. Then they said they weren't. Then they told him to go to a different doctor. That doctor then told us he needed surgery. We then waited at the next hospital for about 18 hours for the surgery. Needless to say he didnt have insurance so the bill was astronomical (9,000). He only made about 12,000 a year (during a good year) but when we applied for an hcap for assistance they said no because he was slightly above the poverty level. Finally after alot of paperwork on of the hospitals agreed to pay for some so he "only" owes 2,200 now. The incident has left me feeling horrible. I cannot believe that a human being would be treated this way. Don't tell me that our system is fucking broken!

Posted by: tara at July 10, 2007 9:16 PM

Statistics are over-rated. We are living in our own anecdotes, and even accurate statistics (only 14% of statistics honestly represent what they claim to) can't represent the individual experience. Most of the great medical advances were based on case studies, self-experimentation, and inductive reasoning. Penicillin, perhaps the greatest of all medical discoveries, was tested on ONE person before it was OK'ed for mass production and distribution.

Posted by: George at July 14, 2007 7:28 PM

Don't assume that state-run healthcare is perfect, because it's still basically managed for and by the drug companies. I had hepatitis C, everyone I knew who took the drugs got worse. Maybe the test results were better in some cases, but as far as quality of life, forget it - it just made things harder. Then I discovered that taking a mixture of antioxidants - selenium, NAC, vitamins E & C - and eating a whole food, low iron diet made everything better. Now why didn't any of those doctors tell me that? If I'd trusted the health system I'd still be sick, in fact I could well be worse or dead. They wanted to stick a needle in my liver at the beginning, hurts for a week afterwards. I thought, that's wrong. I don't want to enter a sado-masochistic relationship, I want to feel better not worse. There's got to be a better way. And there was.
Now my LFTs are normal and my energy levels are ridiculously good. I pity the people with HCV who still trust their doctors will fix them, their faith is not helping things, my scepticism may have saved my life.
The drug-company-trained doctors are obsessed with waging war on the virus, in true war-on-terror style; they destroy the patients in order to save them; but it turns out that the virus and I can co-exist very happily. This method is all over the web, and I'll testify, anecdotally if need be, it really does work. Furthermore, it's based on better science and a more intelligent understanding of physiology and biochemistry than the current use of antiviral drugs, liver transplants for Hep C which is a multibillion dollar industry - but 99% of the time it's a scam. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure here, but the prevention is being kept secret in the hope you'll buy the cure.
But my story takes place in a country with free healthcare. Accessibilty and cost is only a part of the problem. Our faith in drugs and surgery as the magic bullet solutions for what are in fact complex lifestyle and aging related conditions is the real killer.

Posted by: George at July 14, 2007 7:55 PM

Don't assume that state-run healthcare is perfect, because it's still basically managed for and by the drug companies. I had hepatitis C, everyone I knew who took the drugs got worse. Maybe the test results were better in some cases, but as far as quality of life, forget it - it just made things harder. Then I discovered that taking a mixture of antioxidants - selenium, NAC, vitamins E & C - and eating a whole food, low iron diet made everything better. Now why didn't any of those doctors tell me that? If I'd trusted the health system I'd still be sick, in fact I could well be worse or dead. They wanted to stick a needle in my liver at the beginning, hurts for a week afterwards. I thought, that's wrong. I don't want to enter a sado-masochistic relationship, I want to feel better not worse. There's got to be a better way. And there was.
Now my LFTs are normal and my energy levels are ridiculously good. I pity the people with HCV who still trust their doctors will fix them, their faith is not helping things, my scepticism may have saved my life.
The drug-company-trained doctors are obsessed with waging war on the virus, in true war-on-terror style; they destroy the patients in order to save them; but it turns out that the virus and I can co-exist very happily. This method is all over the web, and I'll testify, anecdotally if need be, it really does work. Furthermore, it's based on better science and a more intelligent understanding of physiology and biochemistry than the current use of antiviral drugs, liver transplants for Hep C which is a multibillion dollar industry - but 99% of the time it's a scam. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure here, but the prevention is being kept secret in the hope you'll buy the cure.
But my story takes place in a country with free healthcare. Accessibilty and cost is only a part of the problem. Our faith in drugs and surgery as the magic bullet solutions for what are in fact complex lifestyle and aging related conditions is the real killer.

Posted by: George at July 14, 2007 7:55 PM

The movie is good. If nothing else it makes us aware of how wasteful arrogance is - there is a difference between being a 'great society' and being a 'rich society'. We are not great - if we were we would be taking better care of people.

I have dozens of stories I can tell about the heartbreakingly broken healthcare system in the U.S., but I'll tell the one that has just happened to me and my family.


My father, 97 yrs old, has been an HMO member for over 40 years (when Kaiser Permanente first opened for business). He has had the same internal medicine doctor for 20 years. For the past two years we have asked the Dr. to put him on hospice because it has been obvious that he is slowly failing from congestive heart failure and, well, he is OLD! The Dr. instead put him on more med's - $450 a month worth. He came down with pneumonia two months ago (my son waited in the emergency with my dad for 16 hours) and they pumped him full of antibiotics - but he couldn't really recover. Then they wanted to release him to a crappy skilled nursing facility - the only one that was 'in their network' or we could pay $5000 a month to go out of network.

We found out that my dad, being a vet, could go to the VA hospital. So we asked the HMO doc to please put him on hospice, give him a referral and give us his medical records (I have power of attorney for medical decisions). She wouldn't put him on hospice, wouldn't write a referral, and told us that medical records would take 2 months.

Then she said, just take him to the VA emergency ward - they can't refuse him.


This is 'managed care'. Or perhaps we should call it 'managed neglect'. This doc has been in a relationship with my dad for 20 years, damn it, and she was serious about 'dumping' him as soon as it was obvious he was dying. When you're dead you can't take anymore pharmacueticals.


My son and I went to the medical records office and literally told them my dad's death was on their hands if they didn't give us the records.


They did. So we went to the VA emergency with my sick 97 year old father propped up in a wheelchair and his medical records. He is now in a wonderful hospice ward with caring nurses and a great doctor.

It doesn't matter that the systems in Canada or France or Great Britian have 'flaws' -- any flaws they have don't compare to the catastrophic mess of healthcare in the U.S. We have created a healthcare system that not only doesn't provide 'health' it doesn't 'care'.


I have PPO - they love to see me walk into a Dr. office or hospital. But I know the kids down the street don't have regular check ups or go to the doctor, even though one has asthma, because their parents work at jobs that don't provide health care. Does that make me feel good? To know when I get sick I can get care, but my neighbors can't.

We should be outraged at the healthcare business in this country, we should be marching in the street for all the folks who go without basic healthcare, and for those who do and get dumped- we shouldn't be spending time finding flaws in the systems of other countries.

We should be learning and borrowing the best and inventing the rest ourselves. WAKE UP, we are being screwed by the politicans and Corporate America - and then saying 'thank you - here's my co-pay, can you screw us again?'.

Posted by: Sheri at July 16, 2007 2:58 PM

Enjoyed the movie. It cleared up a few misconceptions that people have about both sides of the argument. Mainly, paying more for healthcare doesn't mean you're getting better healthcare. But more surprisingly, you can have a gov't run HC system that provides top notch service. The English doctor (with the Audi) proved this. Instead of rewarding doctors who save the insurance company money, they reward the doctors who actual "heal" the patients (ie. get them to quit smoking, lower their BP, lower the cholesterol, etc.) This creates a win-win-win situation. Most importantly, the patient wins by actually getting the disease/symptom cured instead of temporarily treated. The doctor wins by getting rewarded for his good service. And the gov't wins once the patient is cured and doesn't have to cost he gov't any additional money. So simple it seems impossible.

Posted by: Roy at July 18, 2007 3:07 AM

If Mike wants to do a REAL EYE opener, do one on ex-cons in America. I have valuable info he could use.

Posted by: Carl Rispettoso at July 20, 2007 11:53 AM

OK, I read 2/3 of these comments, then couldn't last any longer; it's after 3AM. I think you are missing the salient issues here.

1) The healthcare system of the US is the best in the world not because everyone who can come here does, it is the best because if you have the money you get the best treatment in the world, period. It is the best because it innovates more than any other country. It is the best because it pays for the development of the drugs and the devices that the US and the rest of the world then enjoy.

2) If the money is taken out of the system, the development of new drugs and devices will cease. Full stop.

3) People who are so in favor of a national single payor system are the same people who believe in progressive taxation; they feel that someone else (the uber rich, they think) will be paying for their medical bills.

4) People must be in control of their medical choices and bear part of the costs in order for any system to work, to put the market forces into play.

5) We absolutely MUST take the cost of healthcare OUT of US products. A GM car has a $1,500 healthcare tax in it. The solution is.... Well, I could give you a link, but you probably wouldn't appreciate it anyway. The solution is going to be a long difficult transition; The medical economy is a huge fraction of our GDP so it will take a "decade or Moore" to implement it. (Ha! I kill me!) Are you youngun's up to the task?

6) People who are sick in the US get healthcare now. They go to the ER and are taken care of regardless of their ability to pay. they get transported by ambulances without regard to ability to pay, they receive emergency treatment without regard to their ability to pay. What they don't get is the most expensive life extending treatment for chronic illness.

7) A substantial percentage of the people who are "uninsured" are only temporarily so, and some are young and in great health and choose not to purchase insurance, because they dun wanna. But as long as some mythological rich guy is willing to foot the bill? Heck, sign me up!

8) The US government will not be able to say "no" to any procedure for anyone ever. As soon as a national health system is in place, the first time a patient is denied coverage for say, experimental stem cell treatment Katie Couric (or Michael Moore) will have a microphone in their face and a Senator will be calling the health service.

9) Finally and in contradiction to #8 above, my wife has been trying to get some teeth pulled, literally, for a 93 year old woman who is now in a nursing home for months now. She has rotting teeth that hurt, but no dentist wants to take medicare. Finally our dentist took her on as a personal favor for us, but took 3 weeks to fit her in (this was also a favor, the original date was 2 months out). The pre-approval for the extraction takes 3 weeks. It has now been 5.
This is who some people want to manage it all?


How can #9 and #8 live side by side? The superannuated have no voice and people would prefer to forget. It's the 40 year old guy and the 12 year old kid that will get the public media involved.

But my wife and I are older now at 45-50 (I wont's say that she's the older one); Please-go ahead and put this into place in time for our dotages, feel free to pick up that tab for us.

Summary? I am in favor of taking the cost of healthcare out of the cost of doing business and into the cost of government, but I am not in favor of a single payor system. I am in favor of a system that has everyone but the poorest of the poor contribute something to it.

Finally are links allowed in here? If so I can post a link to the solution. If not, you'll have to come up with one yourselves. ;)

OK I figured out that my name will be hyperlinked to the solution. Sorry for the ramble. Enjoy.

Posted by: Ron at July 24, 2007 3:57 AM

Sorry for the long post. I hope you take the time to read it and think.

"Josh, you are either a really mean spirited- selfish person or you are just dumb. You arguments make no sense. You really have no understanding of how our health care works, or doesn't, if you think that the problem is caused by people who receive the government subsidised health care. Also your statement about fire departments is deplorable. I think that your lack of compassion makes you pretty worthless. I know that is a horrible thing to say about any person, but I am sick and tired of that kind of attitude. I think you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such things."

Josh is one of the dozen or so commenters who have actually made good sense. Unfortunately, most people will never be able to relate to people like Josh until they realize a few things.

Passing laws does not automatically correct problems. Setting up a system that is intended to keep everyone healthy is a noble ideal--but it is doomed to failure. The reasons for this are a bit too subtle for a blog, but I'll try. The market allocates resources based upon demand. When there is high demand in an area of the market, in other words, lots of money being spent there, there exist incentives for producers to emerge and supply the thing. What government tries to do is substitute the aggregate demand of all the people who need medical care with its own demand (by funding health care on their behalf), and then to regulate supply to try to meet that demand (through state-owned health facilities and state-funded doctors). The market is supplanted by central planning.

There are many, many problems with this. Foremost of these is that it becomes impossible to determine what the real demand is. Those who are in desperate need of treatment are the same as those who have a mild cold, as far as the government can tell. This means that the government has no idea how much money it is going to take to try to see to the needs of all of these people, how many hospitals to build, how much to pay doctors to entice them into the profession, and so on.

The next problem is the old observation that whatever the government subsidizes, we get more of. If ethanol is subsidized, farmers grow corn and turn it into fuel. If single mothers are subsidized (i.e. welfare), we get mothers who eschew marriage while having ever more children. If we subsidize sick people, we get more sick people--that is, more people show up in hospitals and doctor's offices. This is one of the key effects of our current insurance system, which our government has encouraged to grow significantly in the last forty-odd years. Because the costs of using insurance is kept artificially low, the costs of maintaining it keep rising.

People who don't know any better shrug their shoulders and say, "That may be so, but we need to make it work anyway, to save lives." People who do know better realize that the problems are insurmountable. It is no more possible for the government to provide all of the healthcare that everyone could want, as it is that the government could feed everyone. It would be wonderful if each of us never had to worry about things like eating, housing, and staying healthy, but the belief that government could provide any of these is one of the sad myths that both Moore and the author of this article believe implicitly.

One word to add about the fire department issue, since some people have felt the need to get their dander up at the suggestion that people might actually get the choice whether or not they want to pay for such a service. As Josh rightly suggests, in the absence of government, firefighters would exist, and would likely be funded through insurance. Since the cost of a fire is high, but the average risk of it happening to any one person is low and predictable, the actual cost to each person is low.

Currently, everyone funds government fire departments, whether they want to or not. Even people who are too poor to pay income tax end up feeling the cost indirectly, since taxes rachet up the cost of doing business. Would it be so bad to give people a choice of whether or not they wanted to be protected? People who presume that fire departments would go around fleecing people for everything they are worth do not understand how supply and demand sets prices and the roles of competition and entrepreneurship in the market.

And that's just the problem that we see now with health care in this country. The reason it is fubar-ed is not due to "privatization", bastardized word that it has become, but to regulation and subsidy. High prices always signal scarcity, if it is long term (i.e. diamonds), or a shortage, if short term (i.e. fresh water after Katrina). If we were simply in a healthcare shortage, you would have millions of doctors entering the field, each one trying to tap into that sweet, lucrative market. In time, prices would go down--would be forced down--by the increased competition, and the consumers of health care would win.

What do we have instead? A regulated mess that ensures that only an inadequate trickle of doctors gets through. To compensate (in typical government bumbling fashion), we have Medicaid, which subsidizes those who are on it by shifting their costs onto those who are not. That boogeyman we were hearing about a few years back, malpractice suits, is symptomatic of the gross distortion of profits to be had in the medical field, combined with the doctors' inability to freely make contracts with their patients and set limits on liability.

I'd better end there, though I could go on. Again, apologies for the length.

Posted by: Scott D at July 26, 2007 6:43 PM

Ron,

Some good, thoughtful commentary on your part. Specifically:

"1) The healthcare system of the US is the best in the world not because everyone who can come here does, it is the best because if you have the money you get the best treatment in the world, period."

That's a very good point, and often overlooked. Studies that show that the U.S. lags behind in quality of care aren't what you think. They include factors that basically measure how socialized the system is, which of course we lag behind in. When we look at quality of care alone, we are #1.

"2) If the money is taken out of the system, the development of new drugs and devices will cease. Full stop."

Seriously impaired, at the very least. R&D in medicine is its own inefficiency nightmare, but at least there is forward progress.

"3) People who are so in favor of a national single payor system are the same people who believe in progressive taxation; they feel that someone else (the uber rich, they think) will be paying for their medical bills."

The uber rich use and abuse the system. The more we try to hurt them, the more we hurt the poor and middle class. And even in those few cases where redristribution works as intended, the end result is to channel more money into cash holdings, and less into savings and investment, to the detriment of everyone.

I would caution you to consider your solution more carefully, since it only addresses funding and not the fundamentals that are pushing the system into ruin. Adding a new tax and refunding it to business would add a new layer of government intervention to business, since anytime the government hands out money, regulation is sure to follow.

Here are the problems I have indentified and the hard solutions.

1) The AMA must be stripped of its monopoly priveleges and shorn of the backing of regulatory force of the U.S. government. The AMA acts basically as a labor union for doctors, restricting entry into the field and pushing salaries upward. Much of those increased salaries is eaten up by medical school debt and malpractice insurance. I have tried comparing salaries of physicians with dentists, chiropractors, veterinarians and so on, and though their pay is lower in all cases, each of these also have their own strict education and licensing requirements. However, there definitely appears to be some correlation between how restrictive the entry the field is and its annual salary--as economics would predict. You may argue that this will reduce the quality of medicine, or make doctors less ethical. But, as Milton Friedman once observed, since when has higher pay made people more ethical?

2) Health insurance must be deregulated and Medicaid/Medicare abolished. Medicaid increases demand for medicine, while at the same time underpaying providers, who must make up the shortfall elsewhere. Medical insurance in its current form also acts as a subsidy for illness, collectivizing the costs and increasing demand. Think about what would happen if all medical insurance disappeared tomorrow. Would a lot of people die who could not afford treatment? Probably. Would this make a lot of money for hospitals? No. The long-term result would be a restructuring of the whole industry from one that cannot survive without subsidy to one that could. Costs would have to go down and it would be those who currently "slip through the cracks" who would benefit the most. In reality, the restructuring would be gradual once the regulation was removed.

Posted by: Scott D at July 27, 2007 1:27 PM

Anyone who sees this movie and still doesn't believe that the U.S. should adopt universal health coverage is either stupid or wasn't paying attention. I have yet to hear another option for solving the problems Moore highlights in the film. Face it folks! We have been misled about universal health care in Canada and Great Britain by the people who are profiting from the current U.S. system -- the insurance companies and Pharma. Any viable solution must keep those players out of the equation. We, frankly, should be embarrassed by the reaction of the British and Canadian patients and medical workers by Moore's questions about their bills. They were dumbfounded and some even said, "This ISN'T America!) Come on folks, how long are we going to let our government control us instead of the people taking control of our government? I and the people I saw this film with were moved to tears.

Posted by: Carer at July 27, 2007 5:25 PM

Can I assume that the person who said that people were supposed to take care of themselves have never had a serious illness or injury? If they have who paid the bill? I don't know too many people who have thousands of dollars (for example, $60,000 to attach a finger tip) laying around in case of an accident or illness. Do you? ...and THAT would be a relatively small bill!

Posted by: Wonderer at July 27, 2007 5:36 PM

Briefly, I am an MD with an MPH , both from Harvard.I have written healthcare policy all over the world,,
plus, in 1992, I ran for the US Senate seat from NH, where I practice family medicine, proposing a very simple Single Payer Healthcare Plan , like Medicare, where we all had baseline insurance ( I can fax a copy)

I am appalled that for 50 years or longer ( FDR was trying to get us Universal Health Care when I was a child) there has been a big business sponsored,
completely phoney debate, about "Socialized Medicine".
Countless fictitious " Big Government Bogeymen" have been danced out in front of us , and that cynical scare tactic has worked for 50 years.
The Republican Presidential Wannabees are sticking to this tried and true diversionary tactic, as I write.
Rudy Runs His Mouth has just raised the same (phoney)argument, once again.
"BIG GOVERNMENT, BAD!! BAD!! SCAREY!!BAD!!! No wonder his daughter wants to vote for Obama
(Even though Obama leaves the Insurance Companies in charge of his proposed healthcare plan)
The phoney Socialized Medicine debate has obscured the dismal reality,
namely that we have had foisted upon us the most expensive, least responsive healthcare system in the whole wide world.
We in America enjoy "Corporatized Medicine", a progressing nightmare, ( which is truly bad, bad, bad!) and evil and heartless as well
"Corporatized Medicine", ought to be the bogeyman we all fear..
"Corporatized Medicine" has frozen about 40 percent of us out entirely,while diverting finite healthcare funds away from healthcare, into the pockets of "the few, the proud, the greedy."
If huge profits are allowed, somebody else pays for them, in lost /denied services and treatments

It suffices to say that no other Industrialized contry has allowed big business to take over the rendering of healthcare, only the USA has done this .
All other countries, even poor countries like Cuba, have maintained control of healthcare costs by keeping "profitability" out of the healthcare services equation.
In the USA, enormous wealth has changed hands, while shoddy care has reigned
(See "Sicko" )
While creating Healthcare Billionires, we have become a third world country so far as quality of care goes.
The clear truth?
Give a dollar to Medicare and 97 cents comes out the far end in services rendered.
Give a dollar to the HMO of your choice and about 60 cents comes out the far end, in services truncated and squeezed so as to retain "profitablility".

This 40% "loss ratio" absorbs (steals) precisely the amount of funds, from the finite amount of funds available, that would insure the bottomdwelling 40% of us who are the "Leftouts"

Leave Insurance Companies in charge of Healthcare, as all but Kucinich ( and maybe Richardson??)propose to do, and the 40% are doomed to be left out forever.
Greed is the most relentless,the most pervasive, the most difficult to curtail, of all the Cardinal Sins.
And, contrary to what the character Gordon Gecko said,in the the movie" Wall Street", "GREED IS (NOT) GOOD"
Certainly greed is not good in the healthcare arena
Clearly,
It is not possible to pay HMO and drug company CEO salaries in 8 figures,
pay 5 to 20 times more for Medications,
finance huge and heartless Bureaucracies,
and then also include the poor, the halt, the lame,
(or even the majority of us) at full benefits, without restrictions, prior authorizations and other obstacles.

so "Fornicate" the poor, the halt ,the lame,(they are used to it)
and, while at it, fornicate everybody, via overpriced drugs and overpriced services.
Pocket the profits, and buy another yacht.

There is no gentler way to describe the process.

This should open the debate, no??
Terry Bennett MD MPH

Posted by: terry bennett md mph at August 7, 2007 3:23 PM

Just came from the film Sicko. Someone long ago
said that the revolution is in the mind and when
the revolution is over,all that is left is the
purge of the people into the streets. As JFK
once said "The hotest places in Hell are reserved
for those who in time of National Crisis remain
nutural" Well is there anyone left in The Land
of The Free that has the guts ??????? We are
frozen by the ongoing FEAR OF OUR OWN GOVERNMENT.
Are you ready to give up your new car? Your Mastercard? Are you ready to close your bank account? Are you willing to go into the street
where you live, talk to your neighbors and stand
the embarassment of defending your real freedom?
Are you ready to say no to banks charging you
interest to use your own money? Can you tell the
drug companies and mortgage companies you refuse
to pay tribute for their billions in profits on
the backs and lives of working Americans. Untill
you are ready to say yes to these things, please
do not pretend to honor those who have given their
lives so you may be an honorable citizen and enjoy
the false phoney freedom you tell your children
they have. The US Constitution is the greatest
document ever written and while it is being torn
up before our eyes, we are embarrased to speak out. We deserve every piece of crap that is thrown into our faces. We are no longer worthy
of what those brave souls who laid down their life for us gave. We Americans are now frightened
little lap dogs for the Organized Crime that
pretends to call itself our elected officials.
Bought and Paid, I get mine and get the hell out
before it hits the fan, is the mindset of these
people and we have made them that way by not being a watchdog and making them accountable to the Constitution and right reason. Oh we complain
but do we stick our neck out? No that might mean
we have to give up the boat trip next weekend or
cancel the Vegas reservations. The majority of
citizens in the United States and around the world believe damm well there was a conspiracy
to murder the Kennedy Brothers, but has anyone
been held accountable? Thats old news and besides they would be dead of old age by now anyway. You want to start to clean up America?
Lets go back to Dallas, Take J Edgar Hoover's
name off the front of the FBI Building in Washington and let the elected people in Washington know we will back them in their efforts to clean up the Congress. Throw the damm
Lobyest out of Washington, Make it illegal to work
for a corporation after public service in DC.
And demand campaign funding be overhauled.
Require public officials take drug test.
Require elected officials take lie detector test
prior to taking office. These are required test
for anyone going to work for Walmart! Why should
people who are making life decisions for the Nation not have to abide by the same standard?
Is there anyone out there who thinks things will
change while they have their asses parked on the
couch watching the game on the weekend?
Nothing changes if nothing changes............
You have been told - Its up to you and me.
I am no longer afraid of the man in Washington
with the pistol. I am no longer afraid of my
Credit Rating ! I will stand up as one person
against the bastardazation of what this fine
Nation and its people once stood for before
the mass brainwashing of greed.
Final Thought, "LAW IS LAW ONLY IN IT'S ACCORDANCE WITH RIGHT REASON. AND THUS IT FLOWS FROM THE ETERNAL LAW. IN AS MUCH AS IT DEVIATES
FROM RIGHT REASON, IT IS NOT LAW AT ALL, BUT
RATHER A SPECIES OF VIOLENCE. St.Thomas Aq.

Posted by: WR at September 4, 2007 12:38 AM





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