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You Got Pecs, I Got Tecs: The Second Amendment Viewed through Runaway Jury

Runaway Jury / Erik Nolte

Film Reviews | January 17, 2007 | Comments (167)


GUNS!

Scared you didn’t I? Guns can be scary things, especially to those who aren’t familiar with them. I’ve fired weapons of most of the common classes and a few of the kind that most people assume civilians can’t own, and I still have trouble looking down a gun barrel even when the gun is in pieces. Primal fear like that can be a good thing; it’s done a great job of keeping me from shooting myself in the face so far. Primal fear can also be a tool of misdirection that can drive large groups of people to make irrational decisions. Personally, I think guns, like plastic surgery, are a great social equalizer: the last line of defense against those more blessed with physicality than rationality. Thus I’m a bit surprised that both tend to be targets of blue-state rhetoric, but that’s another piece for another time. This is foremost a movie website, so I’ll leave the debate over guns in the able hands of the comment section, but I have a few things to say about how movies treat them.

I have never seen a gun do anything more than its user asked it to do. If you pull the trigger and the gun is functional, it fires. Take a seat in a modern movie theater, though, and you are liable to think that guns have a life and agenda of their own. In the movie discussed later, you see and hear the gun firing, but the killer’s face is flashed only once, very briefly and out of focus. Perhaps it’s my hyperactive sensitivity to the anti-gun agenda, but it seems that the implication is that the gun causes the crime, out of the malice of its own existence, and thus we should fear the gun even more than the criminal. That being said, there are still serious movies that treat guns as a fact of life and a tool with no moral value in either direction.

Heat is a fine example. Anyone who has seen Heat knows that it is rife with gunplay and the deaths are bloody and brutal. There’s a pain to its gun violence that comes with realism. Guns in the movie sound the way real guns sound, not the stock Hollywood blam-blam foleys. The violence is realistic and specific. Chris (Val Kilmer) doesn’t just “get shot,” he gets shot in the freaking neck. Something about that makes me wince more than when somebody gets launched through the air by a booming hand-cannon in a typical action flick. It’s like the anticipation in a cold dentist’s chair: You don’t have stylized settings or clever banter mid-battle to take you away from the searing pain of the bullets, and you feel their sting the way that, before you get a tooth pulled, you feel the needle that hasn’t hit you yet.

Heat offers tons of good reasons to want nothing to do with guns, and yet there is no judgment or contrivance in its tone or plot. These are hard men who choose to live and sometimes die by the gun. When Pacino finally guns down DeNiro, he’s sobered and perhaps even saddened because he respected DeNiro’s dedication to his craft, but there’s no implication that none of this would have happened if it weren’t for the guns. I look at the movie and see a set of morally neutral implements being used by men who would have killed and been killed even in a world without guns, but you could just as easily argue that the horrors perpetrated with the guns in the movie make a case for wiping firearms from the earth. I think this constitutes a balanced jumping-off point for a discussion of firearms in our society, but it seems that more often I see a different type of movie.

Ah, Runaway Jury, where to start? Politics aside, I enjoyed it. Grisham stories are like diet cinema: not a whole lot to challenge your palate, but not a lot of dumb fat to clog your neurons and kill you either. The plotline is an interesting concept that I won’t spoil for you, and I give them props for naming a gothed-out secondary character “Lydia Deets.” Getting down to business, anyone who read the book first better hold on to his agend-o-meter for dear life because the Grisham story about a tobacco company case has been hijacked to smear the gun industry. The opening constructs a brief portrait of an ideal father: an important man in a brokerage firm who nonetheless takes time out of his day to collaborate with his assistant to reconstruct the lyrics to “Big Rock Candy Mountain” that his son sang to him the night before so that he could sing them back to him that evening. His life is tragically cut short by a disgruntled former employee who returns to the office to exact his revenge by shooting anyone he can get in his sights. It’s cheap, lazy heartstring plucking, but whatever, at least there’s a degree of honesty to it.

The movie aspires to be more than a mere emotional plea, however. Runaway Jury declares its status as a serious and substantive indictment of the gun industry by drawing several gun-company owners together to listen to a spiel from jury consultant Rankin Fitch (Gene Hackman) in which he quotes statistics about gun deaths and sales to justify adding several million dollars to his tab. There are two clear messages being broadcast here: First, while this case is fictional, the discussion of guns is real; it’s backed by statistics after all. Second, we’re talking about how gun companies in general would handle this situation, unless we’re supposed to believe that the director has set his realistic courtroom drama in a fictional universe in which all gun companies are corrupt. This makes the fear-mongering and misinformation spread throughout the rest of the movie that much more inexcusable.

The crimes against truth and fairness run the gamut. In some cases, real features with legitimate and innocuous purpose are twisted to look evil. When Wendell Rohr (Dustin Hoffman) is questioning Henry Jankle (Stanley Anderson), the head of “Vicksburg Firearms,” he asks him about a feature on the gun described as a “fingerprint-proof finish.” Rohr wants to know who would want this kind of finish, and Jankle (to my surprise) correctly answers “Anybody,” and goes on to explain that fingerprints cause rust that damages the appearance and value of the gun. Rohr proceeds to press and badger him until Jankle finally snaps and yells something about the Second Amendment, which we are clearly meant to take as an admission that he can’t defend himself on this point and he knows that criminals want the guns. By this time, perhaps the director expects his clever audience to have figured out that the feature is targeted at criminals so they can shoot people without leaving fingerprints. This is preposterous. A fingerprint-proof finish does not prevent fingerprints, but rather the kind of damage that fingerprints can cause to the “bluing” used to protect most firearms until very recently.

The movie mentions that the pistol is semi-automatic five times, including twice referring to the gun as a “semi-automatic assault(-type) weapon,” because it makes it sound like it’s practically a machine gun. In reality, it means that it functions like almost every other pistol manufactured since the turn of the century in that the gun fires a single shot per trigger pull and requires no user operation of the loading mechanism between firings. That’s all that “semi-automatic” means and all that it implies to anyone who understands guns, but it sure sounds like more gun than anyone could justify owning (and by the way, should we have to justify our need for everything we own in a free country?) if you say it as though it’s a special feature of this gun.

In other cases, terms are fabricated out of whole cloth to make things sound scarier, like “assault-type pistol.” There is no such thing, not in manufacturer’s terms, not in legal terms, not in any gun book published by a reputable source, and not in the language of the gun enthusiast. The term “assault” is used to describe the gun five times in the movie. I know a bit about guns myself, so when I hear a pistol referred to as an assault weapon, I call up my very knowledgeable friends and immediately confirm that that is an association made up by anti-gun activists and latched onto by the movie. Just why this is an “assault-style” weapon is never discussed, but it seems likely it is as a result of its high-capacity magazine (which by its nature is a completely interchangeable element of any pistol). Further, the term “assault,” when referring to anything other than the machine guns it’s supposed to, has nothing to do with the projectile size or power of a weapon. Thus even if it were technically correct, so defining a pistol would be tantamount to declaring a completely standard microwave “high-capacity” because it comes with a set of large bowls. Only rifles and machine guns are ever legally defined by the term “assault,” and rifles only under the Omnibus Crime Bill of 1994. There is a separate argument about the legitimacy of attaching “assault” to semi-automatic rifles, but that would be a large and unnecessary digression.

Someone who doesn’t know about guns may have a very different reaction. Terms like “assault” lend a manufactured intent and almost a causality to what is still an inert implement, despite the name change. It’s much tougher to argue that you need an “assault” weapon around the house than a particularly capable self-defense weapon. It’s like the great name shift in the abortion debate: pro-abortion became pro-choice because choice is good: anti-abortion became pro-life because life is good. Whether by choice or by proxy for the anti-gun movement, the director is using misleading terminology to play to your fears and imply that gun companies are peddling a killing machine intended specifically to wreak havoc.

Finally, the movie creates an exceptionally unlikely distribution conspiracy to set up Vicksburg Firearms for a loss and make it seem like it would be easy for this scenario to happen in real life. In the movie, the gun company sells the guns to the gun shop, the gun shop turns around and sells them in large quantities to a fence, and he puts them on the street from the trunk of his car. Vicksburg Firearms is accused of producing a firearm specifically for the criminal market and encouraging the sale of the weapon through this chain. It seems plausible, and if a gun company did operate this way they would certainly be prosecutable, but the realities of gun sales and distribution make that chain unattractive in the extreme.

Okay, deep breath, and here we go with how guns actually make it from the manufacturer to the public. Each gun manufacturer is licensed by the federal government as a Type 07 Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL). Each and every weapon the manufacturer produces is reported to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Type 07 FFLs most often sell their firearms to a distributor, which is once again licensed by the federal government, but as a Type 01 FFL. Distributors of firearms still do not sell to the public, but rather to weapon retailers (also Type 01 FFL) and certain other retailers under similar licenses and obligations. Occasionally small manufacturers will sell directly to retailers, but gun companies of the size implied in the movie hardly ever do so. Transactions must be recorded in logs kept for at least 20 years that are subject to both scheduled and random perusal (as are the facilities and inventories of everyone in the chain). At each FFL, weapons are logged on arrival and their location within the facility is tracked throughout their stay, and when one of those inspections comes along each gun had better be where the log says it is. Final sale to a non-FFL of a weapon must be reported, and in particular, every time a single person buys more than one gun in a five-day period, a form is filed specifically indicating multiple gun purchases to make sure it does not escape the ATF’s notice. So either the retailer in the movie is falsifying records to indicate multiple purchasers (and thus opening themselves to a different level of legal hell than just criminal negligence), or the ATF would have been well aware that the fence was ordering suspiciously large numbers of weapons. To those not reading between the lines, let me point out that all of the reporting in the chain goes to the federal government who should thus be more aware than anybody of what is going on, while nobody in the chain is any more likely to tell the manufacturer where their guns are going than Wal-Mart is to notify Frito-Lay of who is buying a suspiciously large amount of Doritos.

A conspiracy to put guns on the street in the fashion shown would require at least two and more likely three federal licensees willing to risk their livelihood (not to mention freedom) just to make a little extra green. That may sound worthwhile to the fence on the street level, but it’s hard to imagine a gun manufacturer throwing everything away for what would be chump change to them, much less that a large group of gun manufacturers would be willing to help defend one that did go that route. The movie makes a big deal of the fact that gun companies don’t lose cases, and the implication is pretty clearly that it’s because they have tons of money and questionable scruples, but really it’s because they’re possessed of neither the motivation nor the stupidity to do things like this that would make them legitimate targets. Viewers who do some research may well learn all of this for themselves, but given the aura of legitimacy established with the statistics and the courtroom setting, the first stop might understandably be the phone or instant messenger to warn friends how easy it is for really dangerous guns to hit the street in mass quantities.

If you really believe in something, then you shouldn’t fear a challenge. I don’t mind engaging in a discussion about something I feel passionately about even though I will probably lose in the moment because I have a terrible memory for statistics and when I read what where. Things change though when someone twists the truth for the sake of their argument, even if they do it for “the right reasons.” I do believe that even the most politically motivated opponents of firearm rights intend to save human lives on some level and thus perhaps feel that they are justified in using a little sleight of hand. The movie all but announces it feels this way when it shows Rohr deliberately choosing the wrong tie and later spilling mustard on another tie so that he doesn’t look too slick for the jury, all with a conspiratorial wink and nod. But can there be a more pompous or harmful attitude in politics than feeling that you know what is best for people to such a degree that you can’t risk them deciding for themselves armed with the truth? I’m guessing that more than a few of the readers of Pajiba would have something to say about this as it relates to our President. Paradoxically, if the makers of this movie are so convinced that guns and gun manufacturers are bad that they feel justified in twisting the truth about them, then why do they even need to? Why not show the audience what convinced you? I can deal with the fact that Hollywood is bound to cast guns in a negative light, but it seems all too often that I see lazy or intentional misrepresentation of the truth in this medium that plugs directly into the zeitgeist.

I realize that Runaway Jury is a bit of a straw man, but my objective is to show you the world through the eye of the conservative, and to the conservative eye this is what a lot of anti-gun movies look like. So I leave you with a challenge: I would love to see the Pajiba comment crew throw out the names of some anti-gun movies they feel are balanced so that I can have a look at them.

Erik Nolte lives in Texas and daylights as a research engineer. He is the conservative commentator for Pajiba. He has sacrificed this e-mail address to spam and death threats.


Queen, The | Pajiba Love 01/17/07



Comments

Erik,

The portrayal of "gun companies" in Runaway Jury aside -- I haven't seen the movie, so I really can't comment on it -- would you not consider it legitimate to have a distaste for gun manufacturers simply because they make machines that are of use only to kill, and you believe (to put it as simplistically as possible) that killing is wrong?

I am probably what you would consider "anti-gun" (although not particularly "activist"), but I don't think I really saw in your arguments a rebuttal to the reason(s) I would give for wanting guns controlled and handguns outlawed for the general public. Perhaps that wasn't your purpose in this article; if I am responding to you on unfair grounds, I apologize.

My argument is: shotguns and rifles are and can be used for hunting as well as to harm people; they have legitimate non-crimianal uses and should be available, if regulated like any other potentially dangerous object. Handguns, so far as I know, are only used to hurt and kill people (whether in self-defence or otherwise). People would certainly try to kill and injure each other without guns, and always have, but the guns make it easier to do so. So why should devices that make it easier for us to do terrible things to each other, and which have no other use or purpose, be generally available? I can't think of a reason -- "they're fun to shoot" is not, to me, sufficient justification -- so I think handguns should be outlawed except for law enforcement officers.

This does not seem like a violation of the Second Amendment to me, but I would be interested in hearing Erik's, or any pro-gun person's, objections to what I've said here.

Posted by: Heqit at January 15, 2007 10:49 AM

To quote Stan Smith:

"guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people, guns protect people from people with smaller guns"

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at January 15, 2007 10:53 AM

Just as a note, this is the first time I strongly disagree with something posted here.
There's a reason why america has one of the highest murder rates in the developed world.
People will always try to kill people, but its alot easier to do so with a firearm (with the added benefit of being able to shoot innocent bystanders on the way).

Posted by: roseaepines at January 15, 2007 11:22 AM

Valid points, and I agree that people have their hearts in the right place when decrying handgun availability but ultimately don't attack the correct target. As with (arguably) drugs and abortion, outlawing them will not make them go away and remove the problems associated with them. People will (and do) get high with controlled substances, women did (and soon might) willingly become subjected to back-alley abortions and pose greater risk to themselves, and perhaps most certainly (if human history is any indication), people will ALWAYS find ways to kill one another if they truly want to. Confront the problems that you really wish to solve. Guns are simply an expression of violence and a human willingness to do harm to him or herself. Concentrate your energies on the conditions that cause violence to arise and the ways in which people can be taught not to abandon empathy and kill.

Posted by: ab at January 15, 2007 11:38 AM

Being a technocrat and what I call a 'pacifistic gun nut', I can get why you are a bit dismayed by the unbalanced portrayal of guns in the media. But, and do not take this the wrong way, I really cannot see any point with this column. I just don't see what the idea was.

I don't know what anti-gun propaganda you have encountered for you to have such a "hyperactive sensitivity" to such portrayals of guns in the media, but it had to be pretty out there. Anyone who cannot make the mental connection between a gun (a tool, really) and the person with intent to use it has other issues that need to be addressed.

Maybe I am not reading it right. But I think it is something else. I realized a long time ago that everyone and anyone can be a dumbass. I know I can and have been, and people I love and respect have their moments as well. I am anti-gun not because I don't like guns, bur because I don't trust the people with them, especially when they get all hot and bothered when someone wants to regulate them. Anyone with too much zealotry scares the hell out of me, no matter what side they are on. Issues concerning stuff that can kill me on purpose or accidentally only makes it worse.

Posted by: Vermillion at January 15, 2007 11:40 AM

I'm seriously on the fence on this issue, and I'm leaning towards the citizen. It is unacceptable to me to have the average citizen unarmed while the criminal is running around loaded like a DOOM trooper.
At the same time, the pro-gun folks need to start being honest and recognize that somehow high powered weaponry (CALL IT ASSAULT OR WHATEVER they are NOT for hunting unless you're hunting Imperial Stormtroopers)is reaching folks that just should not have access. There is a leak somewhere along the line.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at January 15, 2007 12:07 PM

There's a reason why america has one of the highest murder rates in the developed world.

Yes, there probably is a reason; but no one seems to know what it is.

While access to guns would SEEM to be the no-brainer reason for our murder rate, a look at the stats for Australia and Canada seems to shoot that theory down (pardon the pun).

Canada and Australia, two nations with histories, cultures and ethnicities very similar to the U.S., and with very similar access to firearms, have much lower rates of gun death than the U.S. You can look it up for yourself.

People who blame violence in the media for our bloodlust should consider that Canadians and Australians are also exposed to the very same movies/TV/video games as us Yanks.

Frankly, it's a mystery to me.

Posted by: Jerce at January 15, 2007 12:10 PM

Very interesting, compelling and educational post, Erik. You really got me thinking on the issue and I appreciate that. I also appreciate your tone: you're inviting discussion without being all militant about your position.

I usually don't come to Pajiba for civil debates about sensitive issues (I like the snark just as much as the next guy), but I have to admit that I found this post refreshing.

Posted by: Jelinas at January 15, 2007 1:25 PM

"So why should devices that make it easier for us to do terrible things to each other, and which have no other use or purpose, be generally available?"

Anyone who is anti-gun will flip-flop faster than Barack Obama when someone breaks into their house at 2:00 in the morning.

Assume for a second that a law is passed that bans all guns. Do you think that a criminal is going to pay attention to that? His disregard for the law is what made him a criminal in the first place.

Imagine that you're at the back of a convenience store with your daughter when one of these maniacs comes in, shoots the clerk ("But wait! Aren't those ILLEGAL?!! No fair!"), and empties the register. This criminal KNOWS that nobody in the place is going to have a weapon, so there's nothing to stop him from doing whatever he wants.

In the meantime, you get to try to hide in the back of the store and hope that this crazy motherfucker doesn't decide, just on a whim, to kill you and your daughter.

I don't know about you people, but if I have the means to protect my family...you better believe I'm going to do it. I pray that I never have to use my gun...but if something happened to my family, and there was even a slight possibility that I could have prevented it...I'd never forgive myself.

Posted by: brutus at January 15, 2007 1:39 PM

I managed to stay out of the comment section on the PCU piece, but I just wanted to say a couple things here to address some concerns that may have arisen from lack of clarity.
First, to Heqit and people thinking along the same lines, let me re-emphasize that I think your point of view is valid, and my only concern is with bringing to light the occasionally irresponsible way in which it is argued in movies.
Second to Vermillion and others confused by why the piece was necessary, see the above as well, and consider that sometimes if you are predisposed agree with a viewpoint, you don't look as far into it as you might if the argument were AGAINST something that mattered to you. And by the by, as city life differs more and more from the rural, it's easy to see why people from the outside looking in would see people who feel strongly about firearm ownership as animals demanding a right to killing machines, whereas MOST of those people just enjoy going out and honing a skill or doing a little hunting. But they've learned that if they don't react as strongly as the slobbering, flag-waving guard dogs you've grown accustomed to, then what they see as a right just quietly goes away.

Posted by: Erik Nolte at January 15, 2007 2:32 PM

There was a bill going around Georgia some time ago that would have outlawed police chases, as sometimes civilians get hurt due to those. Can you imagine outlawing police chases and guns? The entire nation would turn into Grand Theft Auto III.

The only thing that would stop rampaging criminals from shooting up the place would be an increased police presence, and we all know how liberals think about that.

Posted by: I Am Never Wrong at January 15, 2007 2:37 PM

Heqit-

I would bet that most people who buy handguns do it for at least one of two reasons. One is recreational shooting at a firing range. I don't know any statistics, but I would guess that that is the primary use for most legally owned handguns. The second is to keep other people from killing the owner. The people who get handguns in order to kill people aren't buying them from a retailer, because their ID will be checked and their name logged and the whole world will know they have that gun.

Posted by: Eep at January 15, 2007 2:50 PM

You've explained exactly why I don't like "message" movies. A screenwriter doesn't have to be bothered by facts as long as they make the story work. Innaccuracies in a movie will destroy any credability the message may have. Good article. Thanks

Posted by: Dan at January 15, 2007 5:45 PM

"But can there be a more pompous or harmful attitude in politics than feeling that you know what is best for people to such a degree that you can't risk them deciding for themselves armed with the truth?"

- bravo

Posted by: Danae at January 15, 2007 6:28 PM

I'd like to argue for the public sale of all weapons, including explosives, chemical weapons, and nerve agents. After all, it's the user that makes them bad right? The weapon itself is inherently void of meaning. It's perfectly alright for an individual to practice their hobby of bomb-making and simply hone their skill. It's not like most people would ever intend to use their bombs on another person (or people). It's just a few bad eggs that give weapons of mass destruction a bad name.

Posted by: Bistro at January 15, 2007 6:34 PM

Nice little specious argument you got there Bistro. It's almost amusing, almost.

Posted by: BarbadoSlim at January 15, 2007 6:51 PM

The Runaway Jury was so much better when it was about a tobacco company. Come on, it's so much easier to hate the tobacco comapanies together! Read the book- so much better.

Posted by: TWoP Fan at January 15, 2007 7:37 PM

So, Bistro, you know any VX dealers...I, uh, need to do some deer hunting.

Based on Bistro's underlying argument, we will be banning knives, nail, pens, pencils, because they are all sharp and can be used to injure and murder people. Cars are next because we all know that they are nothing more than 2 ton killing machines. And then fire will be next because anybody using fire is bad. Remember kids, fire bad!!

Posted by: ScarletKnight at January 15, 2007 7:55 PM

A semi-conservative voice on this website?! *HEAD EXPLODES*

I agree whole-heartedly with the fact that if owning a gun was illegal, then the only people that would have guns (aside from law enforcement, obviously) would be criminals. And there are a hell of a lot more criminals than police officers.

Who was it that said "God made men and women and Colonel Colt made them equal"? If I was a woman and I lived in a big and dangerous city I would carry a gun.

Posted by: Matt 2.0 at January 15, 2007 8:59 PM

Yes, Virginia. Guns are sometimes used to kill people.

I will pause for a moment to allow you to get over the shock that this statement comes from a gun owner.

All better now? Good.

I liked some of things in this article, but especially this bit:

"But can there be a more pompous or harmful attitude in politics than feeling that you know what is best for people to such a degree that you can't risk them deciding for themselves armed with the truth?"

Therein lies the whole problem. People who own guns have made the choice to buy guns, and have had to jump through a significant number of bureaucratic hoops in order to do so. This is the free choice of the person buying the gun.

People who do not own guns have made a decision not to buy guns or are legally unable to do so. This is the free choice of the person not buying a gun- and the not-so-free choice of convicted felons, mental patients, and abusive spouses.

Gun owners are not trying to force others to own guns against their wishes. Why are non-gun owners so adamant about forcing their opinions on gun owners?

I have heard many people opposed to civilian gun ownership state that they are afraid of gun owners. This is not entirely rational. The mere fact that someone else might have in their possession a firearm fills these people with fear, apparently. Why? More to the point, why should one person's phobia have any effect on anyone else's choices?

Many people claim to believe that the world is flat. Others believe that space aliens are coming to save us from ourselves- or maybe sodomize us to death. It could go either way, apparently.

Would you permit these obviously irrational people to make your decisions?

Here is another question: Why allow anyone else to make decisions for you? Put another way, why should I allow anyone else to make decisions for me- particularly if the person insisting on making my decisions for me claimed to be doing so for my own good? I do not trust anyone to have my best interests at heart. "If I knew a man was coming to my house with the fixed intention of doing me good, I would run for my life."

From reading many anti-gun ownership editorials and listening to many people espousing the same objective, I have come to the conclusion that far too many of them don't trust me to make up my own mind. Too many of these people want to force me to submit to their will- all for my own good, of course.

Let's try something else instead. How about I mind my own damned business, and everyone else can mind theirs. Notice that I am not trying to force my opinions on anyone else. All I am trying to do is to be left alone. If you want to believe that God is a jelly donut, knock yourself out. I don't give a shrill soprano hoot in Hell.

Until you try to force me to believe the way you do.

Posted by: wenchmaster at January 15, 2007 10:09 PM

Hey, Jerce, leave us aussies out of it! Although, considering I'm going to wade in from the aussie point of view, I guess you can bring us into the argument. I can't speak for all Australians, obviously, but when the issue of gun control in America comes up in conversation over here, my usual response is "why is it such a big deal"?

This bewilderment even colours my response to movies that deal with gun control, such as Runaway Jury. But then again, I think that some Americans have taken the idea of litigation to new and exciting heights. Maybe my confusion with this movie is over the idea that people would actually sue the gun makers for gun related crimes. That's like suing the sun for giving you terminal skin cancer, isn't it? Or is that a faulty comparison?

I'm not trying to be a shit stirrer, so I'm sorry if it comes across that way, I genuinely want to know. Why is the issue of whether people should be allowed to have guns such a divisive topic in America? I've never met an Australian who cared either way, except possibly the farmers who find guns the easiest way to control the rabbit population. Maybe that's the difference between AUS and USA - the only time we get fired up about anything is when someone turns off the cricket and takes away the beer. And even then, it's too hot to get really worked up about it.

Posted by: pennifer at January 15, 2007 10:13 PM

Jerce... You mentioned in your comment that you are not sure why Canada and Australia have less gun issues than the states... I would guess one reason is that we do not have (in Canada anyways) the right to bear arms enshrined in our constitution. To my knowledge, in this country, owning a gun is priviledge to be earned and not a right. Although we are having more and more problems with illegal handguns making their way here via some country to the south of us that shall remained unnamed :D

Posted by: Zanna at January 15, 2007 10:29 PM

Sorry ScarletKnight, but your logic is flawed. Every item you listed has practical use and is not intended specifically for death. Guns are intended to kill. It is their only purpose. When they are used properly, someone or something dies. I'm not competely against arms, I'm no PETA activist who hates hunting. I'm perfectly fine with rifles and shotguns designed for hunting animals. (Yes, I know plenty of people have died from these as well.) But anyone who tries to convince you that a pistol has any other purpose than to kill another person is either in denial or delusional.

But after my ranting I'll say that I actually agree with Erik's views on manipulation in film. But just because it's easy to point out manipulation in one media, don't think it doesn't exist in another.

Posted by: Bistro at January 16, 2007 12:19 AM

Thank you Erik, for answering my query. I guess I am a bit less scrutinizing about the subject because of my stance.

It should be stated that there is a big difference between gun control and anti-ownership. As wenchmaster demonstrated in his post, gun control is necessary to keep guns away from those who will abuse them. I know I am a lot more comfortable with the idea of private gun ownership knowing that there is a whole lot of registration and paperwork involved, instead of any Joe Smith being able to waltz in and get a pistol whenever he felt like it.

It is essentially the same logic behind purchasing a car, and helps gun buyers realize how serious a commitment it is to have such a weapon, knowing that they will have to live with the consequences of its use. If a gun is legitimately bought and registered, then the authorities will know where to look if it is involved in a crime. If it isn't, then they know that the person wielding it has broken the law, and must have a unsavory reason for doing so.

Posted by: Vermillion at January 16, 2007 12:56 AM

Anybody who finds the topic of gun control interesting at all (and probably most people who don't as well) should watch the Penn & Teller "Bullshit!" episode on same. Some interesting reasons you might not have thought of to be against overly-restrictive gun control.

Posted by: Eep at January 16, 2007 1:51 AM

Hey, Jerce, you're totally wrong about those stats re Australia and Canada. We don't have similar rates of gun ownership, and we don't have anything like the per-capita deaths and injuries that the US has. I don't know where you got that idea, but it's not true.

Posted by: julie at January 16, 2007 5:52 AM

Jesus Bistro, you certainly have a bit of a closed mind.

Guns are intended to kill.

So were bows and arrows, and yet archery is considered a family sport.

But anyone who tries to convince you that a pistol has any other purpose than to kill another person is either in denial or delusional.

So that would include the International Shooting Sport Federation and the International Olympic Committee, as well as hundreds, if not thousands, of sports shooting clubs around the world?

Your thinking is on par with those 9/11 conspiracy theorists who say that they will never be convinced that it wasn't some kind of government plot. Why? Because you appear to be the type of person who refuses to budge from your viewpoint, even if someone has offered you clear, objective and persuasive evidence to the contrary.

Nobody denies or has denied that firearms are dangerous. That's why they have so many rules about handling them, whether at home or on a range. But to call sport shooters delusional and/or in denial about their chosen sport is downright insulting, and doesn't even qualify as sophism, as no person with common sense would consider that a rational train of thought.

PS. Am new to HTML coding, so please excuse size of text.

Posted by: Mr. F at January 16, 2007 8:55 AM

First of, I don't mind a sidetrack discussion, but am a little dissapointed that I learned nothing about the movie (Short of misinformation about guns).

I would like to react to one thing, what mostly wenchmaster said.

It is not the right of individuals to state what are the rights of individuals, however, it IS the right of a society to set the boudries. So when a society decides to get all the guns out of America, it is the rigth of that society to mess with your life.

Right now you live in a place were you can own a gun. And were anyone can state what they think about that. Owning a gun is not a basic right, even if it is said so in the constitution. It is nothing more then a law that gives the right to own a gun. Changing that right is a change of societies vieuws on gunlaws.

For the rest, a well written piece, Eric. Thnx

Posted by: magiel at January 16, 2007 9:36 AM

I happen to think there are way too many guns in this country. I've never shot one, and I'm not interested, even slightly, in owning one. If someone breaks into my house, I've got a dog and a telephone.

But the time to ban handguns was a century ago. We've made so many since then that the old saw about "only criminals will have guns" is a certainty. It didn't have to be that way, IMO, but the ship has sailed.

Posted by: sansho1 at January 16, 2007 9:55 AM

Julie: Jerce got the idea from "Bowling for Columbine" - the part that Michael Moore failed to mention was that handguns make up a much smaller proportion of private gun ownership in Canada. (Maybe there's something to that...)

Erik: Is this a movie I might enjoy? I know you can't answer that, but a good movie review generally provides enough information on the movie being reviewed for the reader to make that judgement for themself. This was probably the longest Pajiba review I have ever read but it doesn't provide anything more than a couple paragraphs of plot regurgitation. Although you write that you enjoyed it, I really can't say if I might enjoy it as well - maybe I should just watch "Heat" again.

Posted by: liking Pajiba less and less at January 16, 2007 10:01 AM

I enjoyed this piece very much, and though I am generally in favor of stronger gun control, I definitely agree that the misdirection of "message" movies does real political viewpoints a real injustice. The problem is that when reasoned points of view become hardened into ideologies, they foment irrationality, unrealistic thinking, ahistorical argument and misdirection, such as is obviously found in this movie.

As a side point, though, (involving another hot-button issue) we're all guilty of doing this at some point, and in your article, Erik, you do so when you mention the abortion debate. It is certainly true that the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are both examples of strategic branding for political purposes, it is erroneous to make an equivalence between the two. The pro-life movement has, in the past, called itself anti-abortion, and this is, in fact, what it is. But the pro-choice movement is not pro-abortion and has never called itself such. It is against the banning of abortion, not in favor of abortions. Both movements may have acted strategically in choosing their names, but saying that they did so in the same way for the same reasons is itself a argument clearly biased in favor of one point of view.

Posted by: babytyrone at January 16, 2007 10:55 AM

...is itself a argument clearly biased in favor of one point of view.

Just as babytyrone's post is itself clearly biased in favor of one point of view.

It is understandable that gun-control and killing babies are such divisive topics, but if you really want some interesting debate, lets take about performing abortions with handguns...

Posted by: I post on Pajiba - that makes me better than you at January 16, 2007 11:18 AM

Why would this dishonest portrayal of guns surprise you by a filmmaker?

Take any movie with an agenda, and you will find the same dishonesty and slight-of-hand. "blood diamond", for example. it has its facts all wrong from start to finish - but now a wide section of america probably believes it is the gospel truth.

the problem is not so much with the dishonest of filmmakers (and I agree with your analysis of the dishonesty of "Runaway Jury"). The problem is that people believe stuff from movies - even if the movie is clearly fictional.

Why should anyone care what the fictional movie "Runaway Jury" says about guns? Because, unfortunately, the movie-going public, for some reason, believes that the "facts" presented in a fictional movie are true. Which is just wierd.

I could understand people believing stuff in a documentary (which also are dishonest usually, in their own way), but a fictional movie?

Posted by: Great Banana at January 16, 2007 12:23 PM

A couple of you simpletons are looking for a movie review, when this is clearly a retrospective study. Perhaps Pajiba could add icons to each of their content links on the front page to make it clearer than "The Second Amendment Viewed through Runaway Jury."

Movie and TV reviews would be easy enough icons to create. If you have a conservative column, you could use a gun icon, or maybe an SUV. Liberal commentary could have a picture of a crying baby, or perhaps a vagina.

Sansho1 - does your dog have shotgun? Are you going to take it with you wherever you go? If so, I need to work on that with my dog...the right amount of treats should do it. I might want to pick up one of those "instantaneously warp the police to wherever I am" phones, too. Is that something Cingular offers? Maybe with the new iPhone?

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 12:51 PM

brutus: You sound like a wonderful person. It seems a mystery why someone so clearly loving and peaceful as you would feel the need for the protection of a handgun.

Posted by: brutus is a douchebag at January 16, 2007 1:09 PM

Hilarious, brutus! Did you borrow that line of reasoning from the comment section of NMN's last diatribe? The difference between NMN's posts and this one is that the present post is obstensibly a movie review - complete with a picture and the title of the movie. Why is it unreasonable to expect that there may be review somewhere in Eric's 2,750 word manifesto?

People like you provide a persuasive argument for legalizing late-term handgun abortions.

Posted by: liking Pajiba less and less at January 16, 2007 1:19 PM

As an add-on to earlier posts, and to agree with one post in particular, I do think here in Canada we've had fewer issues with guns because we have not been concerned with that strange "right to bear arms" - it is indeed not a "right" which we are desperately trying to protect and take full advantage of, but instead a privilege to be earned. And I really believe that guns are not something that should be readily available to people... Yes, it takes someone to pull the trigger, but just having that gun at your disposal is going to make you infinitely more likely to kill/hurt someone than you would if you had no gun. I am very happy to live in a place where there is little threat of a drive-by, etc... Our gun death/injury rates are rising, however, so it would appear that the various media we are exposed to (those which are available to both Canada and the US) are contributing to gun use. But to respond to Erik's original question... could there really be such a thing as a "balanced" anti-gun movie? Doesn't its "anti" stance make it unbalanced?

Posted by: R at January 16, 2007 1:27 PM

So what you're saying is that if I were more loving and peaceful, I could just sell my guns.

I'll have to try that the next time someone tries to rob me.

"911, could you please state the nature of your emergency."

"Someone just stabbed me and took my wallet and watch."

"Well, sir, did you try being a wonderful person?"

"FUCK! I always forget that!"

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 1:31 PM

"Why is it unreasonable to expect that there may be review somewhere in Eric's 2,750 word manifesto?"

Perhaps because the movie was released in 2003? Or did you think that Pajiba was that far behind?

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 1:34 PM

To clear up any confusion, this is not a movie review, and I don't do movie reviews for Pajiba. I talk about politics as they relate to and appear in movies.

Posted by: Erik Nolte at January 16, 2007 2:07 PM

2003! You don't say? Wow, that one must have slipped by me. I don't recall there being any indication in the article that this movie wasn't a current release. I will have to remember to cross-reference all future pajiba posts lest I confuse another "retrospective study" for an actual movie review. brutus' suggestion to introduce pictograms to identify the various categories of pajiban posts could also be very helpful. Oh! we could also allow comment posters to use avatars; brutus could use the picture of a huge gaping asshole. (That is, of course, if he isn't first stabbed or shot by some criminal-type, which seems to be a real concern of his.)

Posted by: liking Pajiba less and less at January 16, 2007 2:14 PM

I don't mind the pedomorphic name-calling, and I might be an asshole, but the one thing you'll never call me is a victim. Yes, being shot or stabbed is a concern of mine, because I live where that kind of thing takes place. Be honest (I'm trying to have a mature discussion with you, seriously): in which general area do you live? I think that would tell us a lot about your criminal nonchalance.

Also - you won't need to cross-reference anything if you have even a trivial interest in movies in the first place. I can guarantee that virtually every regular on this site knows that Runaway Jury is not a current release. For someone eager to read about movies, you don't really stay up to date with them.

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 2:35 PM

I think the problem with guns is when people get the idea that they can use them for self defence. As a weapon, guns are only useful for assault! You cannot shield with a gun. In terms of saving your own life, you can only do it with a gun at an attempt to take the life of the other who is attacking.

In the US, the criminals know that any of their victims at any time might "defend" themselves with a gun. I think this causes the gun toting criminals to act more aggressive, and shoot rather then threaten. In Canada, a steak knife is often enough to rob a gas station with. In the US, the steak knife will be foolish.

There is nothing wrong with owning guns, I think, but we have to have the right mind behind it. Safe storage of the weapons and the ammunition is important. And we need to leave the belief that we can use a gun to kill behind, and find a better way to protect ourselves.

Posted by: Aaron at January 16, 2007 2:38 PM

Copied from dictionary.com:

self-defense (sělf'dĭ-fěns')
n.

3. Law The right to protect oneself against violence or threatened violence with whatever force or means are reasonably necessary.

- - - -

If there were another practical method of protecting myself and my family, I would be all for it. I certainly don't want to shoot anyone, but I will if it is absolutely necessary. The legal repercussions (even if I am found innocent of wrongdoing) are staggering.

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 2:52 PM

This is what really bugs me about people buying guns to feel safe in their home:
"According to the CDC, the rate of firearm deaths among children under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. American children are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die in a firearm accident than children in these other countries" from http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm

You wont be worrying about a burglar after your child shoots themself or another... a gun in the house is only safe if locked up and then if it is, not so handy for the burglar, is it?

Posted by: Zanna at January 16, 2007 3:16 PM

Who cares if Canada has a higher murder rate? They have less black people. OH YEAH. I went there.

America needs to learn from Englands problem. They outlawed guns in 1998. Their handgun crime rate has doubled. Over half of all home robberies are done with the homeowner is inside his residence. You are 6x more likely to be robbed in London than NYC. One man in 1999 shot two burglars inside his home, and he is currently spending life in prison for killing one of them. You basically have no self defense rights in England. In fact, if you are being robbe din the street, you can hit your attacker once, but anything after that is assault.

Criminals will always have access to guns, therefore everyday people should have a right to own them.

Ever hear of Kennesaw GA? They require every homeowner to have a firearm with ammunition. Their crime rate has fallen 89%.

A gun in the hands of a bad man is a very bad thing. A gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone but bad people.

Posted by: Allen at January 16, 2007 3:47 PM

*gasp*

You have given facts (apparently), and made a solid point without name-calling.

I love you Zanna.

Did you know that if I have a sharp knife in my kitchen that, statistically, my kids have a much greater chance of stabbing themselves or others?

I agree that the best way to keep your child from being shot with your gun is to not own a gun. However, you then have close to a 0% chance of defending yourself from an armed intruder, whether your children are home or not. It's like saying the best way to avoid aids is to not have sex. Sure, it's the safest choice, but it's not always the best choice.

I keep my weapons in a safe that reads my thumbprint, so that they're locked, but quickly accessible, even in the dark. There is a 0% chance that my children will be able to access my guns without my approval.

Also - don't forget situations outside the home.

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 3:56 PM

It seems to me that the scenario involving the back of the Kwik e mart is fallacious - Why would the criminal feel the need to shoot the cashier if the cashier, given the law is against ownership of guns, is unlikely to have one himself? I would think that the threat would be enough.

But, more basic to my lack of real understanding of the blastophile (yay! portmanteau!), why is the contents of any given cash register so valuable that it validates the termination of another human life, even if that life is a criminal one?

Is $50 dollars really enough to justify killing someone? $500? $5000?

At what dollar value does a criminal's life become worth less than that of a cluster of developing cells in the uterus of a promiscuous middle school student that, by and large, the same group of people strive so hard to "save?"

Posted by: Bucko at January 16, 2007 3:58 PM

brutus: Have you ever considered that a better way of protecting your family would be to just keep them out of harm's way? If criminal violence is a bonafide risk in your area, why do you subject your family to that risk? Is gun possession the only way of ensuring your family's security? If so, shouldn't all members of your family carry guns (in case you're not around to protect them)?

Living in fear of being shot or having a loved-one shot seems like an awfully high price to pay for whatever it is that compels you to live in such a dangerous area - especially considering that in most places the risk inherent in having a loaded gun in the house far outweighs the risk of encountering an armed assailant. For the record, my "criminal nonchalance" is not a result of my living in such a place. Rather I live in such a place to protect my family from people like you.

Posted by: liking Pajiba less and less at January 16, 2007 4:11 PM

"I would think that the threat would be enough."

I would think so, too, but you are assuming the criminal is rational. What if he's a crackhead?

To the point, I don't think money ever comes into it. This is a person who is threatening to take a life. Are you going to take the gamble that he's not going to kill you? That he's not going to kill someone you love? If you had a gun with the opportunity to fire, would you die because the criminal deserves to live just as much as you do?

To me, a person becomes worthless the instant they demonstrate an inability to exist in a civilized society.

This criminal has proven to be dangerous, where as the developing baby has done nothing wrong. And quit trying to change the subject ;-)

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 4:32 PM

Hi Nina ;-)

Which comment?

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 4:36 PM

Hey, I didn't bring up the abortion issue, that's right in the article (but calling a cluster of cells in a uterus a "developing baby" is like calling a petri dish of sore throat swabs a "developing pandemic").

To answer your question, no I would not fire first. I could never bring myself to preemptively end someone's life unless I know for a fact that they are looking to hurt me. And a crack addict at a cash register is not looking to hurt me, s/he's looking for money to buy more crack. I would absolutely give that person whatever they asked for. It's not like their face isn't on video anyway.

And if someone broke into my house? I'd make a quiet phone call and pretend to sleep.

I don't think any person, even if they tried, could ever be considered worthless.

(and so I don't get bitched at, my initial parenthetical statement is obviously a joke)

Posted by: Bucko at January 16, 2007 4:48 PM

liking:

You and your family most likely don't engage in criminal activity, so you've got nothing to fear from me.

Short of moving to a deserted island, the threat will always exist in some form or another. My point is that if you don't have any experience dealing with a certain group of people (criminals, hispanics, eskimos, pick one) the only thing you can offer is the same internet bromide that every outsider likes to offer.

Have you ever been robbed? Ever had a family member held at gun point?

Not attacking, just wondering.

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 4:54 PM

I am moderately pleased by the (largely) civil discussion on the subject.


I do wish to correct a misapprehension on the part of several posters here. The Constitution of the United States is not intended to grant rights to the citizens. Please read the Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments) and note carefully how each amendment is worded. These amendments spell out what the government cannot do. The wording of Amendments IX and X are particularly clear on this point:


"Amendment IX- The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X- The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
"


The citizens of the United States do not get their rights from the government. We, the people, cannot be granted rights by the courts or the government because they are the inalienable birthright of all Americans- indeed, all people of all nations.


So long as we remember this, we still have the power to make government our servant and not our master.


But power without responsibility and restraint is madness. We, the people, need to learn from history one sober fact- wealthy republics seldom last long. In fact, republics can only last until the people discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.


In my opinion, we haven't reached that point. Yet.


But the danger is always there.

Posted by: Wenchmaster at January 16, 2007 5:02 PM

"...unless I know for a fact that they are looking to hurt me."

How do you know? Wouldn't you feel silly losing that gamble? What if it's in a parking lot, and he doesn't want you to identify him? Sure, I keep adding a bunch of what-ifs, but I'm not willing to take that chance. If you're comfortable being a potential victim - that's your right. Do me a favor. Google (I love how that's a verb now) "clerk shot" and look at the number of stories.

"And if someone broke into my house? I'd make a quiet phone call and pretend to sleep."

What about kids? A spouse? Going to pretend to sleep then? I agree that the odds are that the robber will just take your stuff and leave...but again, that's your gamble.

Posted by: brutus at January 16, 2007 5:07 PM

Sure, clerks get shot. They should just cooperate. And, the situation at the Kwik e Mart was hypothetical - guns were banned by law so the criminal had no reason to suspect danger from the clerk. If guns were more regulated, criminals would face less chance of being caught by someone with a gun and would put less importance on having one themselves. Guns would be something that criminals use against other criminals and the police. The only thing it changes is that the common person doesn't get shot as often because criminals wouldn't be acting out of fear.

Having a gun imparts false confidence and promotes territorialism. The risk that I, having a gun, will mistakenly shoot someone who is and was not a real danger and having that hang over my heart for the rest of my life seems much greater to me than the risk that a criminal would be so stupid as to kill someone who isn't resisting. What if it's just some kid pulling a prank, or a drug addict making a horrible mistake? Sure, they're at fault, and should be punished, and it sucks losing your plasma screen, but I don't want to avenge my electronics with a hail of death. I'd probably hit the screen anyway, and then I wouldn't have even protected anything ;)

You can never be sure, that is true. But I'd rather be a victim than the killer of someone that didn't deserve it (of course, you've defined any criminal as "worthless" previously, so I guess they all deserve it just for making you feel threatened).

Tackleberry almost killed his father in Police Academy 3(?) for making a sandwich in the dark. People shoot kids "armed" with painted squirt guns. Black people get shot because they're shadowy and menacing.

Posted by: Bucko at January 16, 2007 5:43 PM

Wenchmaster-
Well said, bravo.

bucko-
I hope that the next criminal you meet is as concerned for your welfare as you are for theirs. I'm guessing you haven't taken any concealed handgun license courses, but the ones around here teach you to use whatever means possible before using your gun. Mace them, stab them with your keys, whatever it takes. The gun is for when your life is being threatened, not your shoes or your jewels or your car.

You're right though, if only more people could learn the lessons taught by Police Academy 3 ;-)

Posted by: Eep at January 16, 2007 5:59 PM

"The gun is for when your life is being threatened, not your shoes or your jewels or your car."

I completely agree, and if everyone obeyed the rules that'd be fine. But the fact is that people feel powerful when they're carrying a gun, and powerful people don't like to lose their Camaro. What starts as threating a carjacker to get him to run away escalates - when all he wanted was your pleather-slathered Berlinetta.

I'm going to pull a random number out of my ass in a second, but if it's WAY off base please correct me - Say 95% of home intruders just want your stuff, and if you left them alone and let them take it, they'd be on their merry way. If, to prevent the 5% that are irrationally violent, you pull a gun on all of them, I'll bet that 95% turns into 0% really quickly. Once you pull the gun, someone's going to get hurt.

Posted by: Bucko at January 16, 2007 6:17 PM

Admirable sentiments, but consider a few things.

So let's say that the people are breaking into your house to rob you and they're armed with a gun. Is it more likely that you are going to be nervous and end up hurting someone with your gun, or the criminal will be. I'm not sure there's any evidence either way, but that's the point. No robber has EVER been shot in a house they didn't break into and attempt to rob. Yet you apparently consider asking people not to defend themselves the most pragmatic and safest way of dealing with this. Well if it's as easy as asking people not to do things, how about we ask the criminal not to break into my effing house? If the criminal isn't going to listen to my request not to break into my house, then why should I listen to anybody's request not to do something about it?

And if we say that 95% of robbers mean you no harm and 5% are irrationally violent, where does that leave people breaking into your house to murder you? And how do you tell the difference? Do you ask them? Do murderers and robbers wear color-coded glow-in-the-dark t-shirts and/or ring bells or blow airhorns to let you know which kind of intruder is breaking into your house? "Go back to sleep, honey, they're thieves, not murderers." The fact that I statistically should not have been killed by my intruder will be of little consolation to me when I'm cooling in my grave.
When did this change from a government by the people for the people to a government by the special interests for the statistical greater good?

Posted by: Eep at January 16, 2007 6:31 PM

Will the fact that you're still alive comfort you when you flick on the light switch and realize you've gunned down a guy with a supersoaker? Or a 19 year-old on a fraternity prank?

It's a horrible situation either way. I understand where you're coming from though, I really do. But until we can take the FEAR out of people that causes them to overract, I don't trust those people to have guns.

Really, I think FEAR is the problem. The media isn't desesitizing us to violence, it's making us paranoid. We think everyone is a terrorist, everyone is a murderer, everyone is a rapist, when most of the time people pulling this kind of stuff are tragic people with tragic reasons and tragic circumstances.

I understand why people feel more comfortable with guns, and I wouldn't supposrt a law to ban them. Really. I do know, however, that I'd never be comfortable owning one, and even if I did, I'd never be able to fire it at someone.

Can we at least agree that no one needs an Uzi?

Posted by: Bucko at January 16, 2007 6:45 PM

Yes, some American kids accidentally shoot themselves, but way more accidentally drown in backyard swimming pools. This is not the fault of the gun nor the pool, just stupid parents who don't take the proper precautions.

Posted by: Haley at January 16, 2007 6:46 PM

Am I the only person who doesn't live my life according to the absolute worst case scenario? I've lived in NYC for ten years. I wouldn't dream of purchasing a handgun. Perhaps foolhardy, but I just don't live in fear that somebody's going to break into my apartment and threaten to kill me. Sure, it crosses my mind - I always lock my door, windows, look behind me when I walk into my building, take cabs when it's late, etc. I just can't see having a deadly weapon in my home on the off-chance that somebody armed will break into it while I'm home.

I'd like to add, also, that whether citizens have a Second Amendment "right" to bear arms has been debated for ages. Pro-gun people hold up the text of the Constitution as if it's sacrosanct, but it's not nearly as widely-recognized a right as the right to free speech, right to remain silent, etc.

Posted by: Samantha T at January 16, 2007 6:58 PM

Of course, even if you wanted to carry a gun in NYC, it would be exceptionally hard due to their laws. Interestingly enough, one of the worst cities in the US for handgun violence, Washington D.C., only became so AFTER they banned handgun ownership.

And if the massive compliation of police and crime statistics that John R. Lott presents in his book "more guns=less crime," are true, then you don't even need to USE the gun for it to be effective. According to his research, guns are used to deter crimes over 2 million times a year. Far more than the number of people killed by them. So, one might assume that even though you have a gun, you don't need to fire and kill someone for the gun to do its purpose. The threat is enough.

Also, I think there would be far fewer deaths from children by guns if parents would take the time to EDUCATE their kids as to how to use, respect, and avoid a gun. I've been shooting since I was 8, and if I ever found my dads pistol hidden in his room, which i did once, I know/knew enough not to play with it. If you remove the curiosity factor and teach that playing with guns is bad, then the number of kids playing with guns and shooting themselves in the house falls, too.

Just as if you own a pool you teach your kids to swim and put a fence around it. If you don't, well, it's your own damn fault for being a negligent parent.

(Finally, did anyone ever see the anti-drug commercial from a few years back where two kids are smoking pot in their dads office, one finds his fathers gun and his friend asks "cool, is it loaded?" before it goes off and shoots him in the head? Yeah, that commerical was horribly misleading and not only served to scare people away from pot, but guns as well. Don't know why I brought this up. It was just a shitty commerical.)

Posted by: some guy at January 16, 2007 8:09 PM

Some Guy, that commercial (or at least a facsimile) found its way into Harold and Kumar. I laughed. I laughed hard.

This is going to be piling on here, but Bucko, do you really want to gamble with your life, your family's life? As Eep has stated, unless the more violent criminal start identifying themselves as such, I would rather go with the odds that the person robbing my house falls within the 5% minority. Granted my Cuisinart is no where near as valuable as a wayward, oft-misunderstood 19 year old, but I will let it be known often that my life, and most importantly, the lives of my wife and children are worth far more than someone else's. No one has given me the right to judge as such, it is simply something that is true, in my perspective. However it should be noted that I will not fire my weapon at someone immediately, unless the situation calls for it. There are always less deadly ways to incapicitate a would-be robber. Frying pans make excellent melee weapons.

Posted by: ScarletKnight at January 16, 2007 8:43 PM

Sansho1 - does your dog have shotgun? Are you going to take it with you wherever you go? If so, I need to work on that with my dog...the right amount of treats should do it. I might want to pick up one of those "instantaneously warp the police to wherever I am" phones, too. Is that something Cingular offers? Maybe with the new iPhone?

Any insurance company will tell you that effective locks on your doors and windows, an alarm system, a Beware of Dog sign, and the presence of a dog will greatly reduce the chance that a burglar will even attempt to break in. This makes these measures much more effective than a gun, which is only useful once the burglar has identified your house as an easy target (that's right, they're not actually hoping to be confronted) and successfully gotten in. You've got these other things working for you while you're asleep. As for outside the home, I never really feel unsafe, despite my daily urban mass transit commute.

Posted by: sansho1 at January 16, 2007 9:02 PM

This piece can only be described as unintentional satire; (poorly) framing a rant against propoganda as a vehicle to decry gun control.

Wow.

As an Australian, I don't wish to enter into a debate with Americans about gun control because you will respond with mind-numbingly pointless examples like those found above, and I'll have to get nasty. Finding a situation in which everyone wishes they had a handgun is like masturbating on the bus; not difficult, but distasteful nonetheless.

Handguns are stupid.

Stop excusing this sh*t. The only way you'll reduce gun deaths is by banning handguns. Or Fox News. Be easier getting rid of the guns.

Posted by: Peter at January 17, 2007 12:38 AM

Sorry, 'twas my own agenda to balance the rights of the 'o' against the insidious and pervasive 'a's. Some of you may know this ill-mannered word as propaganda. Spare me.

Posted by: Peter at January 17, 2007 12:41 AM

Again, peter, did you not get the point where people mention that cities who have banned all hand guns experience a rapid onset of handgun related crimes? Washington DC, New York, London...

Posted by: some guy at January 17, 2007 3:41 AM

sansho1, to back up your point, there was a house in my neighborhood that was robbed three times before they got an alarm system. THREE times. The third time one of their neighbors was home and stayed on the phone with 911 the entire time. She watched the guys back into the driveway, break in, put stuff in their van, and finally drive off.
They haven't been robbed since they put the alarm system in.

Posted by: The Stew at January 17, 2007 9:28 AM

Peter, to quote Jurrassic Park, "Life finds a way." The reason that people don't make guns for themselves is that they can buy them. Ban them and you have two stages. First, you have the stage where only the criminals have them and they know that nobody else does. Then as the guns of the criminals are ever so slowly removed from circulation as criminals are caught or die, it will make sense for people to start making their own. It's not so difficult. Remember Prohibition? Notice the drug war? How about illegalizing prostitution? All of those completely eradicated the problem, right? If people want something they will get it. Personally I like the current situation where you can buy guns under a regulated system. Perhaps we need to tweak the system, but I don't think we'll improve things by trying to eliminate guns.

Posted by: Eep at January 17, 2007 9:40 AM

Confiscating guns in the US doesn't even take in account the fact that there are millions upon millions of guns being produced outside of the united states, or have been produced and exist outside of the united states.

Banning and confiscating all handguns in the US and expecting all handguns and handgun related violence in the US to dissapear is akin to saying that making cocaine or pot illegal to grow and produce in the US will make all the cocaine and pot in the US dissapear in a puff (or snort) of smoke.

Oh wait. Pot and cocaine are illegal to grow and produce in the US, yet last time i checked the war on drugs was failing miserably. In fact, pot is illegal yet it is the number one cashcrop in america.

fancy that.

guns are here to stay, until something comes along and makes them obsolete with new technology. Then we will have something new to worry about.

That is a reality.

Posted by: Some guy at January 17, 2007 9:49 AM

So I have a question. If the seriously anti- people are so convinced that criminals aren't going to hurt them as long as they're not armed, then why are you so concerned about disarming everybody else? Ask your friends if they have guns and if they do, then either cease associating with them or don't sneak into their house at night and act like you're stealing things as a prank. That way we gun owners get to have our guns and you don't have a thing to worry about. Because again, people who don't have guns don't get hurt unless they're accidentally shot by their friends, right?

Posted by: Eep at January 17, 2007 9:59 AM

Guns are a problem.

Maybe not for you in the land where people take the time to raise their children and learn gun safety but out her in the ghetto's of philadelphia where anybody who's a little insecure with no prospects for a real life who feels they are in constant danger from others of their kind it is a different story. There is nothing like a jumpy guy who can't commuincate well with a gun. Fun for the whole fucking neighborhood.

Posted by: fuck you hard at January 17, 2007 10:51 AM

"This is what really bugs me about people buying guns to feel safe in their home:
"According to the CDC, the rate of firearm deaths among children under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. American children are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die in a firearm accident than children in these other countries" from http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm

You wont be worrying about a burglar after your child shoots themself or another... a gun in the house is only safe if locked up and then if it is, not so handy for the burglar, is it?"

This is actually what I've always wondered. I will admit that it is, of course, the parents' responsibility to keep guns locked up and out of the way of children (even if the children in question are educated about the danger of guns--shit can happen no matter what). That should, in theory, help with (at least?) the accidental deaths. But, seriously, I'm just asking this out of curiosity...if you keep the gun locked up, and a murderer comes into your house at night with the intent to kill you (or a thief comes into your house with the intent to rob you at gunpoint--I don't think it matters in this situation since I'm just asking a question)--what are the odds that:

a) you'll be able to hear someone coming in, especially if you're sleeping and are in the deeper stages of sleep;
b) you'll be able to gauge where the person is in your house at any given moment if you've just been awaken from a deep sleep;
c) you'll be able to quickly and efficiently grab the gun (which would be hidden somewhere, maybe with a lock, away from your reach) without making any noise and tipping off the intruder to your whereabouts and the fact that you are awake;
d) you'll be able to load the gun quickly and efficiently once you have it in your hands;
e) no one else will wake up or run into your room during the intrusion, thus causing even more danger (e.g., having your child get scared and then run into your room, standing between you and the armed intruder)?

I'm really not asking this to be snarky--I don't have a real position on gun control, and if anything, I'm more of a subscriber to the Chris Rock theory of not outlawing guns, but making bullets cost $500 ("that way, no innocent bystanders will ever get shot, and if they do, the shooter will remove the bullet for you!")--I really am just curious, especially if someone here has had the unforunate experience of coming face-to-face with an intruder (armed or not). It just seems to me that the only way a gun would really work out well in that situation above would be if you kept it under your pillow, all "Desperado" style. And even then, like Steve Buscemi says in the movie, "ya know, one of these days your gonna lie down too hard on that bed and blow your brains out."

Posted by: em at January 17, 2007 11:27 AM

I'm not going to shoot someone in the act of stealing my possessions. So, for example, if I see someone stealing my car, I'm not going to shoot at him. In fact, I'm not even going to chase him. That car is insured, and the legal fees I would have to pay far outweigh the cost of the car.

Depending on the situation, if someone breaks into my house, I'm going to get my family and hide in the nearest room, call the police, and wait with my gun pointed at the door.

Anyone with a license to carry knows these things, because they hammer you with them when you take the CHL class.

Also...I started reading what Peter had to say, but then I read "As an Australian" and realized that he can't add anything meaningful to this dialogue, because he doesn't have the requisite experience.

Posted by: brutus at January 17, 2007 11:35 AM

OK, but what if someone breaks into your house with an intent to kill you, with a gun at your head, for whatever reason?

Posted by: em at January 17, 2007 11:40 AM

Hey em ;-)

These aren't necessarily the best answers, but they're what applies to me:

"a) you'll be able to hear someone coming in, especially if you're sleeping and are in the deeper stages of sleep;"

I've got an alarm, and a yappy-ass hypersensitive dog. If the intruder is especially savvy, though, and gets to my room without waking anyone up, and has the intention of harming me, I'm already fucked. You have the gun for the times when you hear someone breaking into your house and have the time to get your gun before they get to you.

"b) you'll be able to gauge where the person is in your house at any given moment if you've just been awaken from a deep sleep;"

You can't gauge where they are, which is why you don't go hunting for him unless absolutely necessary. Get your family, stick together, call the police, and train your weapon on the door of the room you're in.

"c) you'll be able to quickly and efficiently grab the gun (which would be hidden somewhere, maybe with a lock, away from your reach) without making any noise and tipping off the intruder to your whereabouts and the fact that you are awake;"

I want the intruder to know I'm awake. There are much easier targets where they can deal with someone who is not awake, or hell, not home at all.

"d) you'll be able to load the gun quickly and efficiently once you have it in your hands;"

My shotgun is already be loaded, sitting in a thumbprint safe. When I get my hands on it, I'm going to make as much noise as possible, including the "rack-rack" sound. Sure, it's not always going to work, but you play the odds and then watch for the times when things turn out differently.

"e) no one else will wake up or run into your room during the intrusion, thus causing even more danger (e.g., having your child get scared and then run into your room, standing between you and the armed intruder)?"

Apparently you've never seen "Soldier" with Kurt Russell ;-)

Seriously - my kids will know to run to wherever I am, as fast as they can. I'm not shooting anything at all until I have them with me.

You can't influence every situation, but my goal is to have a solution for the situations I can influence.

That said - if I were single, I would totally pull a "Sledge Hammer" and have my gun on a pillow next to me ;-)

Posted by: brutus at January 17, 2007 12:09 PM

Yes, there are more murders in areas of the US (as shown in a recent study) where DOCUMENTED gun ownership is higher. Sounds like an easy corrolation made by the group who did the study. However, these results could be seen in another light couldn't they? Perhaps people who live in crime infested areas are more LIKELY TO BUY A GUN FOR PROTECTION! These studies are all skewed toward whatever group is funding them. So the results obviously will reflect the anti crowd or the NRA crowd.

If you want to ban guns than you have to ban every single item that can also be used to kill. Knives can be used to kill, bow and arrows, axes, machetes, rope can be used to hang someone, cars, baseball bats, chainsaws, etc. It is a joke that people actually think that if you ban guns and made them illegal that crime would go down is kidding themselves. Criminals are criminals because they BREAK THE LAW. It's not like they buy guns using their ID's, jesus.

Posted by: Mike at January 17, 2007 1:34 PM

Being a Brit I'm not going to wade into an argument on gun control (other than to agree that the "if we ban guns then next we'll be banning knives and cars and largish stones" argument is perhaps the worst pro-gun argument in existance and does nothing to further the cause whatsoever) because I simply don't know enough about it.

I would like to say that the initial review and comments following have gone some way to educating me on the topic. However I still find it weird that thousands of people truely believe that a person coming into their house is intent on maiming, molesting and/or murdering them rather than just stealing their TV set. Wouldn't a decent home security system be a better answer than gunning someone down? And do people think that shooting someone who is, essentially, just taking their stuff be remotely justifiable?

Like I said, I'm neither anti- nor pro- gun, just curious...

Posted by: Alex the odd at January 17, 2007 1:36 PM

Why is severyone so goddamned paranoid?

Posted by: Bucko at January 17, 2007 1:37 PM

Yes Alex, there is no way to know whether the person robbing your house will harm you or not. In fact, let's just say that 99% of the time they WON'T harm you. Do you really want to be that 1% of the time when some drug addict (carla faye tucker comes to mind) that kills because they are high and have no rational thought? Do you really want to come up against a parolee who doesn't want to be sent back to prison, or a felon with 2 strikes already? Or how about someone just afraid that you will turn them in? There is no way to know whether someone who IS ALREADY BREAKING THE LAW, and therefore has no respect for society and its laws to go one step further is there?

Posted by: Mike at January 17, 2007 1:46 PM

EVERYONE IS OUT TO KILL YOU!

Seriously, though, don't you think the transition from getting high or even breaking and entering is a little more than "one step further?"

Did you recently watch Reefer Madness or something?

Posted by: Bucko at January 17, 2007 1:59 PM

I admit some paranoia on my part, but I don't see anything wrong with taking extra precautions.

Posted by: brutus at January 17, 2007 2:06 PM

Bucko:

Once some shit happens to someone you care about, it's too late. What's wrong with being ready in case of (admittedly remote) possibilities?

Posted by: brutus at January 17, 2007 2:10 PM

I see your point Mike, but the chances of a drug addict - so strung out that they have no rational thought, no less - successfully getting through any half decent security system are slim to say the least.

To me it sounds like paranoia, maybe it's due to a general culture of fear but it's completely alien to me so I don't really get it. I sleep soundly at night knowing that my deadlocked doors and secured double glazed windows are pretty much going to do the trick.

Also: If someone did break into my house my main thought would be getting out rather than "defending my home".

Posted by: Alex the odd at January 17, 2007 2:15 PM

It seems like paranoia to you, Bucko, because you don't like guns. To me it's just another purchase made to be prepared for a contingency that I don't expect to happen but I would like to be prepared for if it does. I mean, I have a plunger too even though my toilet doesn't back up and I don't expect it to, but I bet you wouldn't call me paranoid for that. Let's not even get into the difference in consequences between not having a gun when the situation arises and not having a plunger when the toitey backs up. The difference is that you don't feel either way about toilet plungers.
I don't have a gun because I'm a foaming-at-the-mouth gun lunatic who prays every night that somebody breaks into their house so they can legally kill someone, I have a gun because it's another option for the worst case. I live in a great neighborhood just outside of an even better one, but a kid was stabbed to death in broad daylight in a wide-open park with little league ballfield less than two blocks away within the past year, and a few weeks ago I had cops crawling down the street hiding behind trees (no idea what that was about). The stuff does happen.

Posted by: Eep at January 17, 2007 2:16 PM

What's wrong is that it definitely increases the risk of accidental or unnecessary violence.

Posted by: Bucko at January 17, 2007 2:16 PM

I don't think some people get it, though Brutus has done a decent job of explaining it. You don't buy a weapon to protect your house, you buy it to protect you and your family. If you can get out of the house or wait for the cops to come, or the criminal to leave, or just scare the criminal out by moving around and making noise, you do it. The gun is for when you are cornered and the criminal obviously means you harm. So what if that's a rare occurrence? The consequence for being unprepared is the ultimate suck. I think people are thinking in terms of gun owners being the opposite of addicted lottery players, but the thing is we aren't constantly pumping money into a system designed to rip us off. We make a one-time purchase and if we hit the inverse jackpot, we're ready. How does that translate to paranoia? Paranoia would be thinking it's likely to happen. Being prepared for it is just good sense.

Posted by: Eep at January 17, 2007 2:28 PM

Let's not even get into the difference in consequences between not having a gun when the situation arises and not having a plunger when the toitey backs up. The difference is that you don't feel either way about toilet plungers.

No, the difference is that one can be used to kill some one in seconds.

Posted by: TWoP Fan at January 17, 2007 3:23 PM

Bucko, you said "What's wrong is that it definitely increases the risk of accidental or unnecessary violence." This is only true if the gun is stupidly left where a person can accidentally shoot themselves or others. There are many devices which allow for secure storage as well as rapid entry. As for "unnecessary violence" I don't see your point. What's unnecessary? If I shoot someone that is in my house because he is threatening me with a knife or claims to have a gun, I feel that is VERY necessary. If you want to be the one who calls the police and wait for them to show up while cowering in fear, fine, that is your right. However, I got my gun after I called the police when there was a break in next door and not only did they take 30 minutes to get there, but the owner was attacked and nearly killed because he woke up when the man was ransacking his house and the man was afraid of getting his third strike and going to prison so he beat him with the intent to kill him. I'd rather be a killer than a victim anyday.

Posted by: Mike at January 17, 2007 3:25 PM

TWoP...you use basic anti gun logic in your argument. Here's the argument:

He said
Let's not even get into the difference in consequences between not having a gun when the situation arises and not having a plunger when the toitey backs up. The difference is that you don't feel either way about toilet plungers.

You said:
No, the difference is that one can be used to kill some one in seconds.

The correct statement is this:
No, the difference is one is used to kill someone in seconds who is trying to harm you or someone around you. A plunger is used to try to kill an innocent someone by NYPD in a bathroom by shoving it up his rectum...

See? As with a gun, both, when used not as intended (guns are for protection in the hands of civilians, but are used as offenseive in the hands of CRIMINALS) can have bad consequences.

Posted by: Mike at January 17, 2007 3:31 PM

It's a good thing that guns are only legally sold to responsible, rational people who take all necessary precautions and use it only as a last resort. The system works!!

Posted by: I done seen the light at January 17, 2007 3:38 PM

"guns are [...] legally sold to responsible, rational people who take all necessary precautions and use it only as a last resort."

QFT

Posted by: brutus at January 17, 2007 3:48 PM

Meh, I'm not personally paranoid (well, no, I take that back--no more paranoid that a young woman who's grown up in a big city her whole life with overbearing parents who made her believe that everyone out there was out to get her--but that's another subject for another time), but about 10 years ago, my mom's best friend's husband, who was a doctor, got killed when he was asleep because he "let" this guy's wife die when she was in the hospital. That didn't exactly scar me for life, but when the really nice guy who helped you when you got a bloody nose constantly as a kid is here one day, gone the next, thanks to someone who went overboard...then sometimes you have second thoughts about stuff like that.

Thanks for the breakdown, brutus! Honestly, I've just always been curious about stuff like that. (And no, I have not seen "Soldier", although I do likes me some Kurt Russell).

Posted by: em at January 17, 2007 4:01 PM

Probably for the best that you haven't seen that movie. It's mindless action film crap, which is to say I enjoyed the shit out of it ;-)

If you ever feel like slumming, though...there's a scene where an enemy combatant takes a hostage, leaving Super Kurt (kiddie Super Kurt, too) pointing his weapon and having to make a decision. That's the scene ;-)

Posted by: brutus at January 17, 2007 4:16 PM

rule of thumb: if it takes you 2,750 words to defend a point on which no one questioned you, you just might be on the wrong side of the argument.

just sayin'.

Posted by: xoxia at January 17, 2007 5:17 PM

roseaepines -

In addition to the good points on Australia and Canada's murder rates, it would be wise to acknowledge the soaring murder rates in Britain after they banned civilian gun ownership in the 90's. A good article on this is available at another blog I read, Reason:

"Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people."

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

Posted by: Jahed at January 17, 2007 5:24 PM

bucko, no one's paranoid. people just like their guns, and therefore will glom onto the most convenient excuse to keep them.

it's kind of like how those opposed to homosexuality pretend to care what god thinks, quoting the same tired fucking phrases in the bible ad nauseum in support of their view, when really, they're just grossed out by the idea of homosexual sex.

it's kind of the exact same thing. yawn.

Posted by: xoxia at January 17, 2007 5:26 PM

"I'd rather be a killer than a victim anyday."

Well, I guess that says it all and makes your point.

But it alo makes my point.

Posted by: Bucko at January 17, 2007 5:30 PM

Just wanted to express my gratitude to brutus for hanging in there past the initial urge to ridicule and actually making some points I can understand. I still don't want a gun, but our present situations are different, and our upbringing may have also been. It just goes to show you that people can spout statistics and claim philosophical objectivity all day long, but it's our environment that's more determinative than anything else. Peace.

Posted by: sansho1 at January 17, 2007 8:07 PM

It would be instructive to read "The Murderer Next Door" by David M. Buss. Guns don't cause murder, they tend to prevent them according to valid statistical evidence. People have a genetic predisposition to murder. Admittedly guns make it easier but they also allow the less physically powerfull or the outnumbered person to defend themselves and their loved ones. But if there is one word that would justify free people from owning guns it is RAPE.

Posted by: Thaddeus at January 17, 2007 10:12 PM

Apparently being Australian rules me out from holding a relevant opinion. That being said - from the outside looking in - you're all fu*king nuts. 'Smoke and mirrors' is the technique you're using to diffuse informed debate.

For example, civilian handgun ownership restrictions in England do not result in increased violence. There is no causal link or evidence to suggest this at all, nor does the paragraph Jahed submitted address even his own point. All the more ironic considering this review began as a rant against propaganda.

England's problems stem from a diverse range of issues, a large proportion of which derive from a shifting European and African population, and cultural unrest because of it. I'm not an expert, but I'm not blind to complicated situations. Handguns are not England's problem, so don't cop out easy. Handguns are America's problem.

I've said it. America has a big fu*king problem.

Listen to the common theme of handgun advocates: protection. From whom? Wildlife? Ze Germans? No. Each other.

I know it's been done to death, but I look at your country and I see a collection of normal and lovely people strangled by ignorance and fear. Smart people squeezed into corners to defend ridiculous concepts like handgun ownership, and doing a pisspoor job of it.

Don't sit there and tell me that your handgun helps protect your family. Tell me how much you hate having to need one to feel safe. Tell me you wish you could leave your doors unlocked like your could have 50 years ago.

Or... tell me that it makes you feel powerful and that I'd better not fu*k with you. I don't care, just tell me the truth.

Posted by: Peter at January 17, 2007 11:14 PM

lol. You are one pompous S.O.B., Peter, especially for someone not bringing any facts but just saying "those arguments and statistics are crap because I say so."

I don't hate having a gun. I'm not obsessed with having a gun either. I don't think about my gun at all on almost every day of the year. Jesus H. Christ, it's just a gun. It isn't an attack dog that I can't control but irresponsibly keep loosely tied in the backyard, it's not a T-Rex that I've resurrected from DNA in amber-bound-mosquito bellies without thought of what might happen if I introduce it into the modern world, it's not a nuclear weapon that wipes out my block if I get a power surge, it's JUST A GUN. What in the hell kind of movies are you watching?

Posted by: Eep at January 18, 2007 12:13 AM

Bucko: I'm going to pull a random number out of my ass in a second, but if it's WAY off base please correct me - Say 95% of home intruders just want your stuff, and if you left them alone and let them take it, they'd be on their merry way. If, to prevent the 5% that are irrationally violent, you pull a gun on all of them, I'll bet that 95% turns into 0% really quickly. Once you pull the gun, someone's going to get hurt.

According to US DOJ statistics, if you are the victim of an attempted violent crime you are twice as likely to be killed or injured if you do everything your nice assailant tells you to do than if you attempt to resist the crime with a firearm.

Many many people are shot or stabbed by criminals when they were helpless to resist, not because the criminals thought they might have a weapon, but because they didn't want to leave witnesses that could identify them or otherwise interfere in their carrying out the crime.

Posted by: jesse at January 18, 2007 12:34 AM

you carry a handgun here for rattlers; a long gun slows you down

Posted by: johnqpublic at January 18, 2007 3:42 AM

Posted by: Albania at January 18, 2007 6:12 AM

Sorry, gun-control folks. Brutus has thoroughly owned all of you.

Posted by: Matt 2.0 at January 18, 2007 8:46 AM

"if you are the victim of an attempted violent crime"

My point is that burglary is not a violent crime and doesn't include on 95% of the time.

Posted by: Bucko at January 18, 2007 10:12 AM

Thank you Matt 2.0 and sansho1 ;-)

The one thing I love about Pajiba is that even when the debate steers into immaturity it normally corrects itself. I also love chatting with you kooky libs...gotta know your enemy ;-)

To Peter:

"Listen to the common theme of handgun advocates: protection. From whom? [...] Ze Germans?"

That's stolen from Snatch. I love that movie. Notice that Turkish made fun of Tommy for having it early in the film, but wasn't so sardonic later when Tommy saved his ass. I know, I know...it's a movie...but nobody thinks they'll need protection until they do.

"Don't sit there and tell me that your handgun helps protect your family. Tell me how much you hate having to need one to feel safe. Tell me you wish you could leave your doors unlocked like your could have 50 years ago."

I don't totally disagree with this. I absolutely hate needing a handgun (shotgun too, when I'm at home) to feel safe. I wish I could leave my doors unlocked like I could have 50 years ago. The very fact, however, that I can't leave my doors unlocked tells me that my family needs protection...so I'm going to protect them. My guns aren't going to protect my family in every situation, but they might, so I'm going to have them.

Now - be honest. Let's say you're a criminal, and you get to choose between brutus' house, and Peter's house. You know that brutus' house has a small sticker (I really do) on one of the back windows that has a picture of a gun and reads:

"Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

http://www.stickergiant.com/page/sg/PROD/bgun/xrg529

Now, you get to choose. Which house are you going to rob?

Posted by: brutus at January 18, 2007 10:47 AM

Being australian isn't your problem, peter, it's not knowing what the hell you are talking about. You cleverly pass off england's sharp rise in crime by stating that it "stem[s] from a diverse range of issues, a large proportion of which derive from a shifting European and African population, and cultural unrest because of it. I'm not an expert, but I'm not blind to complicated situations. Handguns are not England's problem, so don't cop out easy. Handguns are America's problem."

Yet what you fail to realize is that those same issues that affect London affect the US as well. Hand guns are not the issue. Eliminating guns in the US will not reduce our prison populations, or reduce or crime rates, or reduce black on black, white on white, black on white, mexican on black, and any other combination of crime which all contribute to the US's inflated crime statistics.

The position the US is in is different than that of London or Australia or Canada, and to compare them as such is foolish.

You rush to call us liars by not telling the truth, yet you write with an misinformed opinion and wouldn't know the truth about crime in america if it bit you in the ass. WHy? You don't live here, you don't experience it first hand. You make the casual observation that we americans have a big fucking problem, but you assuming that handguns are the cause of said problems is just plain ignorant.

Posted by: some guy at January 18, 2007 10:54 AM

It's funny that you should feel that way, xoxia, because the better analogy is to liken those who are OPPOSED to gun ownership to those opposed to homosexuality. Both want to stomp out something that they fear and misunderstand.

Posted by: Eep at January 18, 2007 11:15 AM

A dumb movie duly panned. You know it's bad when the reviewer has to outsource to a decent movie (Heat) just to generate substance.
I'd request a review of Death Wish but it might be too much fun.

Posted by: Joe at January 18, 2007 11:20 AM

i disagree emphatically, eep. the reason my analogy is apt is because what gun proponents and anti-homosexual crusaders have in common is that they support their belief with one thing, when the basis for it is really something quite different.

a quick show of hands: how many gun owners here have had to use their guns to defend themselves against a burglar? how about a rapist? how about a would-be murderer?

and how many of same spend hours a week or month on the shooting range or hunting?

it's about wanting guns. that one day you may or may not be able to defend yourself against a criminal is just a convenient excuse.

just like how the 'god hates fags' crowd use the bible (the bible they conveniently ignore during the rest of their waking hours) as a means of support, when what they really mean is, 'gay sex is yucky.'

it's interesting that both groups of people fall under the same larger umbrella. that's my favorite part.

cheers!

Posted by: xoxia at January 18, 2007 11:37 AM

"I don't totally disagree with this. I absolutely hate needing a handgun (shotgun too, when I'm at home) to feel safe. I wish I could leave my doors unlocked like I could have 50 years ago. The very fact, however, that I can't leave my doors unlocked tells me that my family needs protection...so I'm going to protect them. My guns aren't going to protect my family in every situation, but they might, so I'm going to have them."

I'm mostly liberal with a lot of issues...but still conservative on others, as most people are (in my opinion)...and I don't have a solid position on gun control, but this makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. Maybe some people own guns for the whole "don't f*** with me" attitude that it may impart, but if that were the case most of the time, wouldn't everyone who owns a gun carry it on them and wave it around to let everyone know that they shouldn't be f***ed with?

Posted by: em at January 18, 2007 11:40 AM

eep, i just noticed that at 2:15 on the 15th, you admitted my point.

so awesome. xoxo.

at least you're honest. it's just a shame that you went on over the subsequent two days to pull out the same tired rhetoric that the rest of your gang never fails to pull out.

see, the thing is, guns ARE pretty cool. they feel nice in a person's hand and they're fun to shoot. chicks look hot when they're firing weapons. it's all very aesthetically pleasing. and were i to ever own one a gun, i'd own it because guns are fun. i'd be hard-pressed to defend myself by whipping out the 'oh, i need it in case an intruder ever breaks in!' line.

oh, i COULD. but it would be a lie. and it's not just me, eep, let's be honest. get a bunch of gun owners in a room together (and i have; i'm from the midwest, from a long line of gun enthusiasts, in a family where the standard gift for nine-year-old boys is a rifle), and amongst themselves, gun owners never fail to admit that the appeal lies primarily in the entertainment value. 'oh yeah, and i could shoot anyone who broke into my house! har har!' every time. without fail.

what's missing from this debate (as well as the abortion debate - on *both* sides - and the homosexual debate) is honesty. a little more honesty, a little less rhetoric. dare to dream.

Posted by: xoxia at January 18, 2007 11:47 AM

"wouldn't everyone who owns a gun carry it on them and wave it around to let everyone know that they shouldn't be f***ed with?"

well, yeah, they would, if it were legal to do so.

Posted by: xoxia at January 18, 2007 11:49 AM

Peter, don't try arguing with right-wing Americans. They'll pull out the YOU'RE JUST A STUPID FOREIGNER defense every time.

What you said about the United States is spot on, and anyone not trying to push a bastardized interpretation of the 2nd Amendment down everyone's throats can see that.

Posted by: ohplease at January 18, 2007 11:54 AM

The notion that persons in favor of greater gun control do not realize that criminals will still have guns is off base. I believe the point is not that if certain guns are outlawed, nobody will have them, but rather is that if certain guns are outlawed there will be fewer guns.
I understand a person's desire to protect one's family. But the chances of a gun protecting are are no greater the chances of that same gun being misused. My guess is that misuse outweighs protection, but statistics on that are not easily found.
The idea that those who own guns legally would not them illegally is also flawed. If the law is designed to prevent not just the illegal ownership of guns, but the illegal use of them, too, and many people agree that that law, on both counts, is too often broken, then exactly why do people believe that the law would be a bar to those who own guns legally, for protection purposes, from using them illegally? Many of those that break the law with the help of their guns, own those guns legally. Not all people are criminals before they come into possession of a gun, but become criminals when they use their guns for ill, regardless of motive.
Personally, I question whether it is the wisest course to try to prevent gun violence by arming more people. Interestingly, in many cases, the same people who argue for more guns in more hands, believe that teaching children abstinence will prevent pre-marital sex. Why not then preach abstinence when it comes to gun violence and hope that people will simply put down their guns?

Posted by: Chris at January 18, 2007 12:17 PM

When did I ever say I don't enjoy having a gun, xoxia? I don't think people have to use defense to justify having a weapon, but to people who would never understand or believe that someone could own a gun, shoot it for sport and entertainment, and not (as you and Peter seem to think all gun owners are boiling over to do) wave it around in the air and let everyone know they won't be F'd with, sometimes that's the only thing that makes sense. Why is it so devious to not waste your time on an argument that isn't going to work? Does "I primarily enjoy my weapon for sport," make "I have a gun so that I can protect myself" untrue? No, and I would bet that most gun owners have one kind of gun for one purpose and another for the other. My gun is almost useless for sport shooting because it has a short barrel and an uncomfortable grip, so the truth is that I have it almost exclusively for protection, but I do enjoy shooting other people's guns. I think it's a shame that you've dealt only with that stereotype, and an even bigger shame that you've used it to stereotype the rest of "our gang," as you put it. I can't remember the last time I went to a gun range but I know it was more than a year ago, I've never been hunting ever, I don't think about my gun except when it's time to use it, and I don't think my case is that unusual. My dad was the same way with his gun, which I've literally seen twice in my life, once being when he took it down to teach me about it so that I would respect it and not find it when he wasn't there to tell me about it, and once when he and a friend of his did some can plinking out in the country. It may be hard hard for someone who doesn't own a gun to fathom such nonchalance, but that's because a gun is a foreign and scary object to someone who doesn't deal with them on a regular basis. I'm sure someone who had never had indoor plumbing would think about it constantly the first time they got it, but I don't think about my gun any more than I think about any other implement I don't use regularly.

You'll forgive me if your rhetoric looks as tired and old to me as mine apparently does to you, if age and use are indeed valid indictments of an argument. I certainly agree with your call for honesty on both sides, and I do appreciate your civility, but I think it's a shame that you're unwilling or unable to separate a discussion of firearms from the picture you've formed in your mind of a typical owner.

Posted by: Eep at January 18, 2007 12:39 PM

XOXIA, you said:

a quick show of hands: how many gun owners here have had to use their guns to defend themselves against a burglar? how about a rapist? how about a would-be murderer?

and how many of same spend hours a week or month on the shooting range or hunting?

it's about wanting guns. that one day you may or may not be able to defend yourself against a criminal is just a convenient excuse.


Ok, quick show of hands, how many of you have had a house burn down? None? Than why do you own insurance? How many of you have life insurance? Do you plan on dying soon? Than why bother? It's not about whether you HAVE BEEN, it's about planning for it IN CASE YOU ARE. Isn't the Boy Scout motto always prepared?

Ok, here's a great analogy....You have 10 mushrooms in front of you. 9 of the ten are harmless. One is deadly. You have a device next to you that can tell you whether or not one of them will kill you. Would you use it, or figure the odds are in your favor and eat away? It's not about anything else but being prepared for the worst case scenario. Like the US and Russia with the nuclear weapons. We both knew each other had them so we didn't dare attack the other because it might result in ourselves being destroyed as well.

Posted by: Mike at January 18, 2007 1:18 PM

eep doesn't use indoor plumbing on a regular basis

Posted by: eep is a redneck at January 18, 2007 1:42 PM

mike, are your arms sore from reaching that far? mine would be.

Posted by: lolz. at January 18, 2007 1:45 PM

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr53/nvsr53_05acc.pdf

According to the CDC, for the year 2002 there were 762 accidental firearm deaths in the U.S. Given the U.S. population of 281,421,906 that year, this means that you had about a 0.0003% chance of being accidentally killed by a firearm. If we assume that all of those occured to people living in gun owning households (around 40%), that percentage jumps to 0.0007%. You were 23 times more likely to be killed in a homicide than by accidental firearm death in 2002. So basically if you believe that your firearm would prevent someone from killing you in 11% of all attempts or greater (and by the way, the statistics obviously only include successful homicides, not all attempts), then you are safer having a gun than not.

Posted by: Eep at January 18, 2007 1:51 PM

My point was simply this....anyone who has ever said they were going to do something or bring an extra something or buy something "just in case" is using the same logic as anyone who purchases a firearm for protecting themselves and/or their families. Have you ever gone on vacation and your wife says "well we better bring an extra (fill in the blank) with us JUST IN CASE we lose one" or "I should buy life insurance JUST IN CASE something happens to me"? If you try to plan for all contingencies in life that, while unlikely COULD happen, what is the difference with owning a firearm?

How about self defense training? Should women who get self defense training and have never been attacked or raped NOT take the course because it "hasn't happened" to them? No, it's all about being prepared!!!! Your arguments fall short because of one thing....you refuse to believe that bad things can happen to you. You believe that as long as you let a criminal plunder your house he 100% won't hurt you and be on his merry way. Or that the police show up in 30 seconds, or that violence won't happen "to you". And that is simply ridiculous. To assume that a person who is ALREADY BREAKING THE LAW won't take it one step further to ensure he won't get caught is such a pipe dream I don't even know where to begin.

Posted by: Mike at January 18, 2007 2:15 PM

OK, here's a great analogy... Mike is an idiot.

How about don't eat the mushrooms? You're "great" analogy assumes that the value of eating a mushroom is worth the cost of the deadly mushroom detector.

Let's give Pajiba readers a little credit here - I think it's safe to say that most of us are of greater-than-average intelligence, regardless of our political and ideological leanings. Analogies are useful only to illustrate in simple terms something that would otherwise be difficult to understand. Mike's gross oversimplification is insulting.

With guns, the value would seem to be the protection offered in case of the threat of violence (plus some of the other ancillary benefits mentioned above). However, the likelihood of the threat of violence must also be considered - this is not simply the probability that a burglar, for example, poses a threat to your life, but the probability that a burglar poses a threat to your life, multiplied by the probability that the burglar will enter your house to begin with. (Hint: When any number is multiplied by another number less than one (probabilities are always less than one), the product is lower than either factor. Yeah Barbie, math is hard.) In most places, this probability is pretty near zilch when other common security measures are in place. Ah, but most of us value our life and those of our family above all else, so the gun may still hold significant value - just in case. Well, now let's do the cost...

Fuck the criminals - they don't get factored into the cost (for me, anyway) because I would kill them too to save my family or myself. But what if my kid got a hold of my gun? I know, I know - it couldn't happen; safe... thumbprint... education.... But it does happen. Maybe not in your house - again, you're all very intelligent Pajiba readers who mitigate all risks - but what about your neighbor? Or your child's classmate? Maybe the chances are still pretty low, but we're still talking about the value of your family's lives.

Those are the numbers that I compare and that is why I prefer to live in a place where most people don't have guns. And, just in case, "Frying pans [do] make excellent melee weapons." Personally, I prefer a baseball bat.

Posted by: duh, my name is Mike at January 18, 2007 2:28 PM

I thought Runaway Jury was a preachy and dumb movie. It seemed like a Hollywood version of a school project by some high school nerds.

Posted by: Hoss at January 18, 2007 2:35 PM

Ah, the last bastion of a liberal when shown he is wrong is to insult the person who has proved them wrong. It doesn't matter what other people do with their guns, I cannot speak for the stupidity of othe rgun owners. I myself take precautions about my firearms, and the first one is to teach my children that a firearm is not a toy and they should not treat it as such. When they became old enough to understand, I taught them proper safety and usage so that there wouldn't BE an accidents, nor a mystique around it. I would agree with you that education should be a requirement for firearm ownership, and a safe should be required for storage. The swiss are issued a firearm to defend their country when they reach a certain age (I believe in their teens) and are taught safety and proper use. They have one of the lowest accidental shooting deaths in the world today.

As for your math, I dont care if it's 90%, 50%, or .00000001% of a chance of my family being attacked in the home, if there is a chance greater than 0% I will protect my family with something I know I don't have to be 5 ft from someone to use (ie. your baseball bat). And just for your knowledge, I also have a baseball bat next to my bed in case I can't get to my pistol in time. The pistol is not my first choice, but it will be the criminals last decision if he so chooses.

Posted by: Mike at January 18, 2007 2:38 PM

"a quick show of hands: how many gun owners here have had to use their guns to defend themselves against a burglar? how about a rapist? how about a would-be murderer?

and how many of same spend hours a week or month on the shooting range or hunting?"

I haven't personally been a victim, but I know plenty of people who were. People robbed with a shotgun for 50 dollars. People killed for their jewelry. People robbed at gunpoint at a gas station. People raped, killed, and closed in the trunk of a car that was subsequently lit on fire.

I thank God that something hasn't happened to me, but the fact is...it happens. Perhaps I'll be ready if it does.

Also - I don't really enjoy shooting all that much, and I'm fairly decent at it. I have to go to this indoor shooting range next to where I live. It's loud, it's jarring, and it smells funny. I go about twice a year, tops.

Ammunition and targets aren't exactly cheap, either. I could go play a round of golf for about the same price as shooting at the range.

You're probably right about some gun owners, but you shouldn't paint us all with the same myopic brush.

Posted by: brutus at January 18, 2007 2:40 PM

You're on the right track, eep - but let's not forget that a good many homocide "victims" put themselves in that situation. The more useful figure to compare would be the number of homocide victims that were "minding their own business". (I'm not saying there weren't any - just that that figure is probably much closer to the accidental death figure than the total homocides figure.) Also, consider that homocides are not evenly distributed across the country. Rather, the bulk are concertrated in a handful of urban centers.

Posted by: eep is smarter than Mike at January 18, 2007 2:40 PM

eep is smarter....you said (and I can't believe you actually said this)

"You're on the right track, eep - but let's not forget that a good many homocide "victims" put themselves in that situation"

Are you kidding me? Would you also ask how many rape victims were "asking for it"? Or how many battered women "deserved it"? You are now going to try and split victiims into categories? I don't believe anyone involved here is advocating we all walk around like the wild wild west, but rather protecting ourselves inside the home. And I will do that as long as my chance of being involved in an act of violence inside the house is greater than 0%.

Posted by: mike at January 18, 2007 2:47 PM

That's an excellent point: as detailed as it was, my analysis was simplified from reality. I think it boils down to whether you feel confident in your ability to use the weapon to protect yourself at the moment of truth. If you don't think you can, don't buy a gun for defense. The odds of killing yourself with your own gun, however, are miniscule (and by the way, the odds of injuring yourself, while much larger, are still tiny). The gist is that the chance of you or any member of your household harming themselves with a firearm (particularly if you take precautions) is so tiny, even compared to the likelihood that you will be victimized by violent crime, that it doesn't take much increased safety in a moment of truth to trump it.

That's an interesting point about urban centers. You could say that that's evidence of the paranoia of rural people owning guns at a higher percentage rate, or you could say it's evidence of their effectiveness. Without a detailed study I think you could easily argue either way, and really it's so complex you might never untangle it.

Posted by: Eep at January 18, 2007 3:02 PM

It is an interesting point concerning urban centers. There are more gun related incidents in DC and NY I believe than anywhere else. What a coincidence that these two states have some of the strictest gun control laws on the books huh.

Posted by: Mike at January 18, 2007 3:11 PM

duh, my name is -

know - it couldn't happen; safe... thumbprint... education.... But it does happen. Maybe not in your house - again, you're all very intelligent Pajiba readers who mitigate all risks - but what about your neighbor? Or your child's classmate? Maybe the chances are still pretty low, but we're still talking about the value of your family's lives.

it happened to a classmate of mine in 1986. despite safety measures in place - separate weapons and ammunition, children properly trained to use firearms, weapons kept locked up - my ten-year-old classmate's twelve-year-old brother accidentally shot her, and she died.

kids are kids. you can train your kids all you want, lock up your guns as tight as you can, you can put your bullets on one side of the house and your weapons on the other, but kids are going to be kids, and when a kid wants to show off his gun to his friends, he is going to show off his gun to his friends.

Posted by: xoxia at January 18, 2007 3:20 PM

xoxia,

It's a shame that that happened yo a classmate of yours. It's a shame whenever this happens. However, since 1986, most gun owners are more educated and the technology for protecting ones loved ones from accidents like this have seriously increased. My fingerprint safe cannot be opened by anyone but my wife and myself. Period. We've tried it. For those who can't afford such a thing, you can buy a trigger lock for under $50. And they cannot be easily taken off, if at all.

BTW, a friend of mine fell down the stairs while showing his friend his knife that he bought and stabbed himself in the leg and almost died. Accidents happen. All we can do is make sure we protect our children as much as humanly possible.

Posted by: mike at January 18, 2007 3:25 PM

Mike - The only woman here that deserves to be battered is you. I think most people understood that my point is that many homocide "victims" were engaged in illicit activity.

Another thought... Murder is often a crime of passion. If a gun were not readily available, how many murders might be averted while the would-be murderer searches for another suitable implement of death and has a few moments to consider the consequences of their actions?

I'm just saying not all "victims" are innocent and not all murderers are "criminals". (And here's a preemptive "fuck off" for Mike - I know that "murder" is a crime, so all murderers are criminals, but I'm sure most everyone but you will understand my point.)

Posted by: eep is smarter than Mike at January 18, 2007 3:33 PM

eep is smarter ...:
Mike - The only woman here that deserves to be battered is you.

Ahh, yes. You've got to love an argument based on non-violence and the sanctity of human life, ... unless you disagree, in which case violence against you is perfectly justified.

If a gun were not readily available, how many murders might be averted while the would-be murderer searches for another suitable implement of death and has a few moments to consider the consequences of their actions?

Like a bat? Or a knife? Or bare hands?

I doubt it would be any more difficult to find "another suitable implement of death" to commit a crime of passion. So to answer your question, I'm going to go with "zero."

I'm just saying not all "victims" are innocent and not all murderers are "criminals".

I'm with Mike on this one. This is a terrible, terrible argument. By definition, the "victims" have been the subject of unjustified criminal actions. If the criminal actions were justified, then they wouldn't be criminal. Whether that girl was wearing a short skirt, or that guy forgot to lock his front door, those actions don't justify or mitigate a rape or robbery. The mere failure to take every precaution doesn't mean that people should be allowed to violate your rights or person.

Posted by: The Comish (sic) at January 18, 2007 9:09 PM

Eep.....so what you are saying is that there is no degree of criminals. If someone is doing something illegal, and they are killed than they deserve it I guess, right? That's what you're saying? So someone speeding should be shot by the police? What if someone is shoplifting, can the owner justifiably shoot them?

Again though, throughout this thread most of us are talking about HOME PROTECTION. Yet every argument that gets made here seems to swing back around into incidents happening outside of the home.

I will reiterate...and again, I speak only for myself and my situation. I took the time to learn the best way to secure a weapon in the home, and took the time to teach my family about things the right way. If someone chooses to be stupid and thei child shoots someone than I feel that parent should be brought up on charges. Education and security is the best way to combat accidental shootings.

Ok...I keep a firearm in my home to protect my family. I live in a nice neighborhood, but no neighborhood has 0% crime. If a law is passed making guns illegal, do you think criminals will not be able to get their hands on a gun? How about the gazillion drug dealers that are in this country? Is it because drugs are legal? No! So don't you logically think that if you ban guns the only ones that will have them are people who circumvent the law to get one, or "criminals". You have to use logic here and think rationally without getting caught up in rhetoric of either side. I am a liberal believe it or not, but on this issue it shouldn't be about politics but about my right ot protect my family in any way I can. Since I was a Marine (ooh-rah) I am trained in weapons use and safety. Having many police officer friends, I can tell you that they know for a fact that many homicides are commited in this country "without reason", where do you think "crimes of passion" come from? Or drug users that are strung out who will do anything for a fix....It happens. And because humans and society will always have violent crime, I will always do whatever I can to protect them. So you go ahead and use your frying pans and your baseball bats. I'm going to make sure that whoever is in my house going after my family doesn't have the option to harm us in any way.

Posted by: Mike at January 19, 2007 9:04 AM

Who said anything about non-violence or the sanctity of life? I would drop you in a heartbeat if you threatened the life of my wife or kids.

Clearly, you're a little slow, Comish, so I'm going to use a real life example (from my city) to illustrate my point...

In the not to distant past, a couple of drug-dealing thugs had a "business" relationship. One day, Thug A realized that Thug B ripped him off. In response, Thug B paid Thug A a visit - he beat him and then put is testicles in a pair of vicegrip pliers, exerting more and more pressure until Thug A finally told Thug B where he kept his money and drugs hidden. Thug B took the money and drugs and left.

The next day, Thug A and three of his friends decided to repay the favor. They went to Thug B's house, attacked him with tazers, beat him half to death, shot him the rest of the way, rolled him up in a carpet and dumped the body.

Now pay attention - I'm not saying that Thug B deserved to die; I'm suggesting that he kind of brought it on himself. Yeah?

Now, if you think that this is somehow the same thing as saying a woman in a short skirt is inviting rape, then you are demonstrating exactly the kind of black-and-white attitude that has mired many of the arguments advanced by the pro-gun folks above.

And for the record, Thug B had a gun for protection.

Posted by: Mike is smarter than The Comish (sic) at January 19, 2007 9:45 AM

This is getting confusing... Mike, are you talking to me, or whoever is saying I'm smarter than you? It looks like you're talking to the other one...

And is whoever did the last post Mike, or the person saying I'm smarter than Mike, or a copycat? What the hell is going on here?

Posted by: Eep at January 19, 2007 10:34 AM

I only post as "mike". I do not change my name to try and be cute or funny.

As for whoever posted as "mike is smarter than The Comish (sic)....

Beating someone up doesn't make someone deserving of losing their life. Are you saying that the kids who bullied the Columbine kids got what they deserved? They picked on mentally and physically the weaker kids, so I guess you think it was ok?

Your line of thinking is why you have to be in "mortal fear" to use "deadly force". I have to fear for my life AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING. If someone robs my house and beats me up and I shoot them in the courtroom, that's ok? They "deserved it"? Or does your logic simply apply to criminals on criminals?

Posted by: Mike at January 19, 2007 11:20 AM

Oh and "mike is smarter than The Comish (sic)...."

You said:

"I'm not saying that Thug B deserved to die; I'm suggesting that he kind of brought it on himself. Yeah?"

So if a woman goes on a date, wears skimpy clothes, and says she might want to have sex, but then says "no" after some fairly serious fooling around, and he rapes her, did she "bring it on herself"?

Of course not, it's an escalating behavior. One does not justify the other. In order to use deadly force, you must fear for your life AT THAT MOMENT.

Posted by: Mike at January 19, 2007 11:26 AM

Now pay attention - I'm not saying that Thug B deserved to die; I'm suggesting that he kind of brought it on himself. Yeah?

Apparently, some of you have trouble reading. It's OK - it was hard for me my first time too.

My comments have nothing to do with the sanctity of life, or when taking a human life is justifiable. My comments are about the relative risks associated with gun ownership and the reasons for gun ownership. The point is that the numbers that some use to rationalize the need for a gun does not accurately reflect the real risk that the average law-abiding citizen (who takes other reasonable precautions) faces of being confronted by a potential killer.

Posted by: eep is smarter than Mike and The Comish (sic), but I'm not sure who is smarter between Mike and The at January 19, 2007 11:41 AM

I think most people understood that my point is that many homocide "victims" were engaged in illicit activity.

Actually, not really, since the entire frame of the debate has been around innocent suburbanites protecting themselves from the foaming masses eager to break into their homes and kill them. So when you pop up saying most homicide victims (by the way, tone quotes look like this: ' ', not like this: " ") deserve it, it looks like you're saying that those innocent SUV-driving gun-toting suburbanites deserve to be slaughtered in their beds.

Posted by: wtf at January 19, 2007 11:53 AM

What the H are "tone quotes?" Am I missing something?

Posted by: AM at January 19, 2007 12:06 PM

Tone quotes are what Mike was attempting to use around the word 'victims' to imply that homicide victims aren't usually victims at all.

Posted by: wtf at January 19, 2007 12:10 PM

wtf: Reread the thread 'dipshit'.

Posted by: wtf is a douchebag at January 19, 2007 12:11 PM

WTF, you must be from another country, because we don't use single quotation marks in the US unless the quoted word or phrase is contained within another quote.

Posted by: AM at January 19, 2007 12:30 PM

wtf: it wasn't my quote. In fact, if you had actually paid attention you would've seen that I was the one who was refuting that point. Try and keep up with the grown ups ok?

Posted by: mike at January 19, 2007 1:05 PM

With all the inane "xy is blanker than yx" foolishness going on here, it can be a little difficult to keep up.

Still, my mistake.

AM, my apologies for being outside the US. Sometimes I forget that it's your universe and the rest of us are just living in it. Allow me to go back to rotating around you now.

Posted by: wtf at January 19, 2007 1:53 PM

Well, if you're going to post on an American website and respond to American English speakers on a post discussing American legal and societal issues, you should take into consideration American English conventions before you attempt to correct someone's punctuation.

Posted by: AM at January 19, 2007 2:09 PM

And Americans wonder why the rest of the world considers them arrogant.

Actually, I suppose they don't wonder at all, do they?

Posted by: BN at January 19, 2007 3:16 PM

Arrogant? Arrogant is posting to an American website and correcting grammar that may or may not be used here. It would be the equivalent of an American going to a British website and correcting the spelling of "favourite".

This issue being discussed is based on American law and therefore the issue is moot outside the US.

Posted by: Mike at January 19, 2007 3:50 PM

"And Americans wonder why the rest of the world considers them arrogant."

I'm willing to admit a little arrogance if you're willing to admit a little jealousy.

Posted by: brutus at January 19, 2007 5:49 PM

Glad you got my back, boys.

Posted by: AM at January 19, 2007 9:45 PM

Posted by: Algeria at January 20, 2007 1:39 PM

I own guns. By the standards of the left, I own way too many. Carry one, too. I went through the NRA course before I got my license to carry. I also spent 10 years as a "grunt" in the Army. I know how to use a gun, and also how to carry them safely. I don't do drugs, don't carry when I (rarely) drink, etc. I enjoy target shooting at the range near my town.

Am I a threat? Should I be forbidden to carry or own a gun? On what basis? I've never been arrested, never committed a felony, and haven't knowingly broken the law (except for speeding)since I decided 30 years ago that shoplifting candy was wrong.

I live in a town where the police can't really be trusted to come when called. My boss was once told by them, when he called about a drug dealer on one of his properties, not to call unless there was blood spilled. Should I depend on the police to protect me?

As for my home, I keep my gun handy (I live alone). If someone broke in, all I would have to do is pull back the slide and chamber a round. Then I would announce loudly "I have a gun, and will use it. I'm also calling the police", or something similar. That leaves it up to the criminal whether he gets shot or not.

And if a drunken frat-boy breaks into my house, well there's something wrong with him. When I was in College, they kinda frowned on felonies. But then, I didn't join a frat.

Americans carry guns. The average crook on the street wants an easy target. If he believes a potential victim is armed, my guess is he won't attack. If he does, and gets shot, I suspect he won't do it again. And perhaps his friends will think twice about their line of work.

Some people have talked about the scum that robs a 7-11, and how he won't kill the clerk if the clerk gives up the money. Are you for real? yes they will-not always, but too often. Sometimes for kicks, sometimes to make sure they don't identify him, sometimes for another reason. It's the way the world works. Remember Willie Horton? As I recall, he was originally in prison for butchering a clerk AFTER the young man gave up all the money.

Someone, perhaps John Lott, made a great suggestion once: If you are so anti-gun, and don't believe that my guns keep you safe as well, then put up a sign in your yard that says "We don't believe in gun ownership, and will not resist any criminals", and see what happens. Or better yet, carry a sign like that around your neck when you go out at night. See what happens then.

Posted by: Rob at January 20, 2007 10:08 PM

Some guy: Just briefly, I wasn't comparing the US to England but was refuting the example previously given to illustrate how posters were ignoring the point of the thread to score points, rather than communicate.

My "'external'" opinion is that gun-related crime is a big fuc*ing issue in the states, whereas not so much elsewhere in the world. I realise that there is a strong cause and effect argument here, but when a situation seems as bad as it was when I was last in the US (amusingly, around the time Cheney tried to take out his lawyer), you can't just leave well alone - your obligation is to tackle both.

So, stop comparing crimes (i.e. drugs to murder) and throwing around figures (i.e. 5% of home invaders are going to hurt "'civilians'") and ask yourself if something needs to change. Is there a problem in the US? Alternatively, is the current level of gun-related murders (or murders generally) acceptable to you, living as you do in a 1st world country? There are a large number of people posting here afraid for their personal safety (an ex-army man with a pistol and a baseball bat within reach of his bed? Wow) and I'm not sure why that isn't the centre of debate. It should be, will gun control help (clearly I come down on this side of the fence) and not, why can't I keep my motherfu*king guns?

No sh*t "'Ze Germans'" came from Snatch; I'm posting on a movie review website, you goose.

Posted by: Peter at January 21, 2007 7:26 PM

I have guns. Lots of 'em. I don't have kids, and so am not worried about little curious fingers getting ahold of them. Aside from the "quick response" guns (3) in my home, everything lives in a secure safe. If you credibly threaten my life or that of my loved ones, I will not hesitate to blow your teeth out the back of your head or shoot you in the spinal cord. I am a NRA member. I know this will identify me as an anti-progress republican troglodyte, with barely two brain cells to rub together, who slavers over the misfortune of others, but I really dont care about your opinion of me. But I will faithfully send my money to the only boys in Washington who can still shoot straight. This is something that most of you hoplophobes dont seem to understand: the NRA is primarily supported not by "powerful special intrests," but by ordinary citizens who wish to preserve their rights, 30 bucks at a time.

My personal politics are essentially libertarian: keep the gubmint out of my biddness, and do as you wilt, harming none. Guns are like abortion, if you don't like 'em, don't have 'em. Against drugs? Don't get high. If you feel safer without a gun in your home, fine by me, just stop trying to push your paranoia on me, and let me keep a gun in mine. I have several guns, including some considered the misnamed and much maligned "assault rifle," and have owned them for over a decade. They are fun to shoot, they give me the testosterone buzz that pro football stimulates in others, and they let me sleep better at night. Furthermore, thanks to boneheaded legislation they have substantially appreciated in value, and have become an excellent investment. Thanks Clinton! Yeah, I have a small arsenal, and who have I harmed? The guns in my safe are less a threat to you (provided you are not committing a crime against me) than your 16 year old cell phone weilding daughter behind the wheel of an automobile is to me.

Particularly vexing to me are all the gun control proponents who moan "but what about the children?" If you really want to save the lives of teenagers and other Americans, why don't you introduce legislation raising the driving age (especially in urban areas) to 21? THAT will save lives. However, we all know that life saving is just an appeal to emotion. What gun control is really about is the attempt to force me to conform to someone else's worldview, and to accede to their control over MY life and property. Same with the pro life zealots, or anti drug crusaders.

Because this is a movie website, I have to remark on cinemas influence on peoples perception of gun owners, and more specifically the perception of rural americans. Thanks to Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Deliverance and a host of other films, Americans seem to believe that the country is full of homicidal weirdos whom are out to do them harm. This is closely related to the often unspoken belief that if you have a southern accent you are somehow stupider than if you are from one of the oh-so erudite coasts. This is so bigoted that it defies discussion. If you had lived through Hurricane Katrina (I'm a native New Orleanian) who would you want to see more coming down the road in a truck? Boudreaux, Thibodeaux and all their cajun cousins? Or refugees from the Superdome? Which would you trust handling a shotgun? Country folk, at least in my experience, are more polite, quicker to help someone in need and share what they have, and more concerned about the welfare of others than most of the city folk I know. you might think that Jacques is an idiot because he has a cajun accent, grew up in a town of 15000 people, and likes to kill and eat small furry animals that are kind of cute. But Jacques might also have a degree in petroleum engineering, a masters in inorganic chemistry, and also have the skill set to fix your car, build you a shed, plant you a garden, and cook you the best dammned dinner you ever had. Of course, when you compare him to your friend Alistair who can argue the benefits of post-modern feminism in postwar Theatre and its impact on deconstructionist cinema and Deriddean philosophy, and who will elucidate it in an oxford accent, he must seem to be a simpleton. But who would you rather go camping with?

Posted by: born on the bayou at January 21, 2007 7:58 PM

"There are a large number of people posting here afraid for their personal safety and I'm not sure why that isn't the centre of debate."

Sure, we could start a dialogue about violence in America, but none of that matters. Even if the US had the lowest crime rate in the world, I would still have a gun just in case. Call me paranoid. I don't mind.

I absolutely agree with you that something needs to change, but it isn't controlling guns.

I think the problem in America is our legal system, and our inexplicable need to coddle and excuse criminal behavior...but that's a debate for another time.

Posted by: brutus at January 22, 2007 9:37 AM

That's big of you, Brutus, and I would happily admit to jealousy if I felt any. Mostly what I feel for the US is pity, I'm sad to say. Your president is a buffoon, your population is grossly obese yet [quite ironically] fantastically obsessed with appearance, your memories are about five minutes long and your attention spans are less, your knowledge of world affairs and history would fit in a thimble, AND worst of all, you drink watery beer.

I don't mean to be insulting (although that is likely difficult to believe), but there's not a lot to envy.

Which is not to say the UK is better, mind you. It is simply to say, if I were going to envy a nation, it wouldn't be the United States.

Posted by: BN at January 22, 2007 5:39 PM

Hey BN ;-)

Bush was the best choice at the time, but I admit that "buffoon" is appropriate.

Can't argue obesity with you, either, other than to say that only in a country as fortunate as the United States could so many people be so fat.

Beer - We have fantastic beer here, we're just not stupid enough to pay for fantastic beer just to get drunk.

Knowledge of world affairs? Do you mean the insignificant stuff that happens outside of the United States? ;-) Give me an example.

Attention spans? I completely disagree with...wait...huh?

What about sports? The UK is obsessed with soccer, a sport that might as well outfit the players in dresses with matching handbags. I've never witnessed such timidity as one of those pansies clutching his knee in agony after another player had the gall to bump into him a little bit. Pure vaginitis, that sport is.

Posted by: brutus at January 22, 2007 6:44 PM

Hmm. Before I get into the real reason for postiing, I will say two things: I do not like guns, and gun control in the United States will not work. I don't like guns because they make killing too easy. That is, supposedly, their point, in that someone who is physically inferior can fight back. However, there is no skill involved in the task. I have fired guns, I have handled swords, and I have shot arrows, but I haven't had much formal training or practical experience with any of them, and there is no question in my mind that while I stand a reasonable chance of killing someone without hurting myself or bystanders with a gun, with the other two...

There's reason martial arts and swordy-slashy films are more appealing to me, and that's because the level of skill to pull off both convincing choreography and to win a real swordfight without doing yourself an injury is greater than when you're fighting with guns. There is also, possibly, the romanticized angle, but it's not like gun violence is shown very realistically on screen, either.

More than the simple ease, though, it detaches ther person with the gun from the killing. It will still be a bloody, noisy death, but unless you count GSR the gunman won't have a mess on his hands.

The other point I understand: gun control does not work in a nation of three hundred million people and at least that many guns.

But enough of this. Erik Nolte, I think, asked for films that portray guns fairly.

In fact, once you get past the first thirty minutes, Bowling For Columbine, of all films, does so. No, hear me out. Moore points out that among countries such as Canada, which doesn't have quite as high a ratio of guns--about 1:3 instead of 1:1, IIRC--there is a much, much lower gun death rate, even though there's a comparable crime rate. However, a lot of the so-called cultural causes of gun death are present. Death metal, violent movies, porn, even bad parenting.

However, what there isn't in these other countries is widespread paranoia.

Guns are not the cause. They are a symptom of a greater disease--a culture of fear in the United States. My favorite true statistic in the past ten years is that murder has actually gone down in the United States, while reports of it have skyrocketed. And it's not entirely the sensationalistic "news"-mongers, though let's be fair--the American mainstream news industry sucks. Everyone in a position of power and influence seems to be in the business of fear.

Gun culture is but a part of the paranoia culture. If it weren't for guns, in a country with the attitudes of the United States, people would be debating crossbow control. The only effect is that there would be fewer crippling injuries and deaths. Guns are much more effective in that regard.

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Posted by: oikjucly at February 17, 2007 5:44 PM

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Posted by: Pol at February 19, 2007 8:29 PM

To the man from Australia...since the new gun control laws went into effect there:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent;

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent;

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent!).

In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent.

Figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms (but increased drastically in the past 12 months).

There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly.

Posted by: Mike at February 20, 2007 1:17 PM

Posted by: xxx babes at March 18, 2007 10:51 AM

it's a terrible shame that the reviewer spent the better portion of his "review" ranting about guns. if he had decided to get past his trigger finger he may have wanted to discuss the INCREDIBLE scene between dustin hoffman and gene hackman in the bathroom, he may have wanted to talk about john cusacks triumphant return to legitimate everyman, he may have wanted to mention the terrifying idea of "pre-selected jury", he MAY have wanted to mention SOMETHING about the movie except his HORRIBLY biased opinion on gun control laws, the public's perception of guns, gun manufacturers etc. it's great to build your review around an idea and a POINT but this is complete red neck bullshit. i may get crucified for that statement, but i'm kinda pissed.

"Whether by choice or by proxy for the anti-gun movement, the director is using misleading terminology to play to your fears and imply that gun companies are peddling a killing machine intended specifically to wreak havoc."

i'm sorry, i forgot that guns aren't meant to kill people. i forgot that the idea of a gun shouldn't be that it's wreaking havoc on people. wow, the director must have shit for brains if he was thinking any of that because last time i checked guns shoot flowers and the "bang, bang" whip-like sound is meant to relax you and lull you into a state of tranquility. how shameful to send out a message that guns are unsafe and that the use of them can, and may result, in death.

the reviewer makes it sound as if the whole movie revolves around making the gun the main enemy. it does no such thing. at no point during the film did we see wendell rhor (dustin hoffman) put a gun on the stand and question it. the argument in the movie is that it's too easy for people (unstable, young, whatever) to get their hands on guns, and guess what? that's a valid argument.

yes, the movie was biased...i think anyone with a brain can see that, but so was this entire "review."

Posted by: citizen_cris at June 14, 2007 11:12 PM