Several years ago, suburban Boston was taken by storm by the opening of a new Krispy Kreme donut shop. For the first few weeks, buying a donut was a half-day experience, as crowds wound around the block, inching their way slowly toward diabetes, heart disease, and flabby spare tires (two more Krispy Kremes would later open, and all three subsequently went out of business within three years — Bostonians love the novelty of hastened death, but not, as it turns out, if the coffee sucks). At any rate, after the crowds dwindled to a manageable hour-or-two wait, I decided to see what the fuss was about myself. And if you’ve ever been to a Krispy Kreme, you’ll no doubt find that the best part of the entire experience (besides fried dough that slides down your gullet and straight into your thighs) is watching, through a large glass window, the donuts being made — circles of dough dipped into grease, drizzled with glaze, and sped along a conveyer belt. It’s a transfixing experience, strangely mesmerizing — the sort of thing it’s easy to waste a few hours watching.
Likewise, Our Daily Bread (which takes its title from King Vidor’s 1934 socialist-utopian melodrama) is a documentary that offers another large see-through window into the mass production of the food we eat every day. But instead of donuts and a conveyer belt, we are witness to the 21st-century food chain — haggard, listless humans mechanically moving chicks, chickens, pigs, and cows along the conveyor belt, or lethargically sticking 100 tiny chicks a minute into a processor to stamp their heads, before they are put back into a contraption and spit, en masse, back into the production cycle. Or a window into a world where a cow is tasered every 45 seconds by a guy in coveralls, lifted — still twitching — by its hind legs, and carried to a different station, where two more men in overalls chat idly while indifferently cutting the cow’s jugular, after which gallons of blood gush out of its opening and through its nose before — once again — moving along to a different machine that strips its skin Silence of the Lambs-style, and then to another man in bloody coveralls who cuts it in half with a giant chainsaw.
That’s the gist of Our Daily Bread, a documentary unusual in that there is no score, no narration, no interview, no re-creations, or statistics. It’s just a widescreen window that allows us to see how our food is produced in all its glorious detail. But in a way, Our Daily Bread is surprisingly more effective than the works of Spurlock, Schlosser, or even Ozecki, who drop statistics that allow us to intellectualize issues of the ethical treatment of animals or, even, in this case, the ethical treatment of humans, who waste away on these assembly lines eight hours a day, cutting the hooves off pigs over and over and over and over again, before taking a 15-minute break to eat a sandwich and stare off into space. Our Daily Bread is powerful for the way the stark, spare and often beautiful images of, say, a machine that rips the intestines out of a pig emotionalizes the issue by, ironically, presenting an incredibly dispassionate look at the matter-of-fact gruesome slaughter of animals.
Austrian documentarian Nikolaus Geyrhalter filmed Our Daily Bread on hi-def digital video while visiting slaughterhouses and industrial farms across Europe, and each shot is a tiny horror film in its own right, depicting the robotic nature of the food-processing industry. Indeed, each scene in Our Daily Bread moves along monotonously, itself a meta-cinematic version of an assembly line that wreaks both revulsion and boredom on the viewer, with scenes that are both tedious and strangely compelling. You may want to look away, you may even want to turn it off at times, but it’s almost impossible not to be sucked in by this nightmarish look at the killing fields that provide our daily sustenance. Even for vegetarians, it’s a guilty experience to watch, as we see — for instance — men in suits and gas masks befitting radiation fallout kicking pesticide machines into motion followed by another scene in which a shirtless man cuts through the same greenhouse aisle, meticulously picking vegetables, seemingly oblivious to the poisons only recently sprayed.
It’s a haunting film that does what so few documentaries do these days: It allows us to draw our own conclusions, though — even for the most closed-minded viewer — it’s difficult to draw any but this one: That ignorance is bliss, especially for those of us who enjoy cheap beef we can pick up at our local supermarket chain. In a way, though, I suppose it does make one feel less guilty about eating Krispy Kreme donuts.
For the curious, here’s a scene from the film, the entirety of which you can see playing in select areas over the next few months. (I caution those with delicate sensibilities — some may find it disturbing.)
And might I also offer the obligatory liberal shout-out to Community Supported Agriculture, which provides food from family farms in your area.
Dustin Rowles is the publisher of Pajiba. He lives with his wife in Ithaca, New York. You may email him, or leave a comment below.
I didn't watch the clip, but I doubt I needed to. I just phoned my husband and told him to put the chicken back into the freezer.
Posted by: Kolby at February 27, 2007 2:01 PM
Yeah, I'm sure it's stark and somewhat moving and interesting. And I doubt I'll see it, because blood makes me feel woozy. And frankly, fuck it. If sticking a pair of jumper cables up a pigs ass is what it takes for me to get decent bacon, well then so be it jump start the fucker.
Honestly? I'd rather spend my time worrying about feeding the hungry, or housing the homeless, than worry about that. Once we get the human stuff sorted out, then talk to me about animals.
Hamburgers aren't pretty. But they sure taste good. Who gives a shit? Meat is Yum yum.
Posted by: mothy at February 27, 2007 2:10 PM
Ha!
I love it when people who regularly ingest meat cave for one second- put the chicken back in the freezer, dear, I just found out that it's produced in a disgusting manner!
Prepare veggies tonight, tomorrow we shall forget and eat steak.
It's the American way- care for a second, make a grand, yet minute, gesture- and regress to normal tendencies the next day.
Posted by: Elisa at February 27, 2007 2:11 PM
Meat is one of those issues I've never been able to come down on one side or the other of. Of course I'm disgusted by the manner in which meat makes it to the table (nor am I that fond of the taste, but regardless), but that's the price paid for efficiency, I guess.
Perhaps if Europeans hadn't slashed and burned and murdered their way across North America a few years back, we wouldn't kill our meat in this fashion; we'd still spear it and use all its parts. Of course, we might not have the internet, either.
My guess is the vast majority of this country prefers the internet.
Posted by: juliagulia at February 27, 2007 2:24 PM
Kolby, you're silly. You're gonna eat that chicken, and you know it. And so am I. I love chicken.
Posted by: MDA at February 27, 2007 2:27 PM
TK, read Fast Food Nation. The most compelling chapter (to me), is about how the meat industry affects people (especially the poor, who work these life-destroying jobs). The animals- the meat industry- is connected to the 'human stuff.'
Posted by: david at February 27, 2007 2:32 PM
This looks, at least partially, like a remake of a feature shown on Public Television during the 80's titled "Meat".
While I will still eat meat, especially beef, I think it is important to realize how it becomes what we see in the market.
Posted by: Pedro at February 27, 2007 2:37 PM
Oh yeah, I'm 100% postiive my fiance will throw that one in our Netflix qeue once it's available. "Come on kids, it's family movie night!"......right before we leave for Morton's.
Posted by: Manny at February 27, 2007 2:39 PM
I can't see this movie, because it threatens to disturb the carefully constructed delusional dichotomy that allows me to eat food that I like without wanting to kill myself out of sheer guilt. I love animals and I can't bear the thought of them being needlessly tortured or killed. If I had to kill my own food, a la Survivor, I'd be a vegetarian. Really, I don't think I could kill a chicken (which I understand are generally unfriendly animals), let alone a pig or a cow. At the same time, I really like meat (heredity may play a part - my maternal grandfather was a butcher). So, I reconcile these two things by 1) telling myself that meat comes from the supermarket and there are no animals in the supermarket, and 2) that I won't eat cute animals (deer, rabbit, duck). I struggle with veal, which is both cute and tasty. This is a tangled web I've woven, and its logical precepts, if any, are fragile to say the least. Injections of truth like this film could bring the whole wobbly mess down on my head, leaving me in a culinary wasteland mindlessly murmuring to anyone who will listen - "But I don't even like bean sprouts." Not a pretty picture.
Posted by: bartap at February 27, 2007 2:44 PM
Honestly? I'd rather spend my time worrying about feeding the hungry, or housing the homeless, than worry about that. Once we get the human stuff sorted out, then talk to me about animals.
I understand this mindset, although I would argue that the fact that we treat the innocent, harmless animals in such a way means we can't even begin to show proper compassion for humans. I'm a vegetarian (trying to be vegan, but having a tough go at it), and while I try to be non-judgemental, sometimes I wonder how people can be so ignorant about the suffering that they contribute to in such a direct way.
Yes, there are many things we do that indirectly may harm others, and no one is perfect, but stopping eating mass-produced meat? That's a very quick way to start to help others and yourself. And David (2:32 PM) is correct - it's not just the animals being hurt. The human cost is staggering.
Posted by: Lollygagger at February 27, 2007 2:45 PM
TK, did we read the same review? The _human_ toll seemed to be mainly what Dustin and the film are concerned with. Ruskin's glass bead factory and Foucault's docile bodies were screaming at me from the back of my head as I read it...old tropes that are more actual than ever, unfortunately.
Glad this movie was made--the way it was made.
Posted by: ranylt at February 27, 2007 2:54 PM
Go Vegetarian!!!Even if you are cruel enough not to care about animals,that are being abused think about your health.These animals you eat are being pumped with drugs and all types of hormones that are cancer causing. It is a fact that vegetarians will live longer than meat eaters.
Posted by: toni at February 27, 2007 3:05 PM
I read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. That was enough for me.
I am all about healthy food, so people, if you can, buy organic from local farmers. The extra cost is worth it.
Also, watch The Corporation if you really want to know what happens to your food, and not just how they kill it. All I have to say is cow hormones.
Posted by: nexus 6 at February 27, 2007 3:07 PM
Oh, God. I knew this would happen.
Look. My point, however poorly stated, is this: Dammit people, I can't do everything, OK? I work for an organization that provides housing to low-income and homeless families. I give to charity. I recycle. I volunteer. I kiss my dogs when I get home.
And I've only got so much fucking time in my day. And not only that, but nothing pisses me off more than people telling me that their cause is more "important" or necessary than the ones I work for.
So please, feel free to be a vegan. More power to you. But unless you're a vegan and you house the homeless and feed the poor and save the whales and fight against genocide in Darfur and work at a drug rehab clinic and take in foster kids and educate people about teen pregnancy and fight crime at night - unless you somehow work to help EVERY cause - ease off on the judging. You've got your cause, I've got mine. Hopefully, if enough people give a shit about important stuff, we'll cover all of it.
Yes, the meat industry is bad. I wholeheartedly agree. But frankly, it's just not on my list. My day is full, and I'm sorry that I can't find time to save the whales and chickens and pigs and the motherfucking spotted owl. But. I. Just. Can't.
oh yeah, this is why 1 in 3 people now get cancer in their lifetime. scary fucking statistics.
Posted by: nexus 6 at February 27, 2007 3:10 PM
Am I the only one thought "that's awesome!" when the dude with the chainsaw started being lowered on the elevator?
Seriously though, this movie looks like an extended version of the "gross you out" scenes in Fast Food Nation. Once the animal is no longer conscious (which I hope happens quickly and painlessly with the whole tasering thing), who really cares what gets done to it as long as it happens in a manner that is safe (both for the food that I will someday eat, and for the people who are actually doing the work).
Posted by: eliot at February 27, 2007 3:10 PM
oh eliot, i hope our surgeons don't say the same thing. everything, regardless of whether you are conscious or not, takes a toll on a body, animal or human, and creates a physical reaction. violent animal death puts stress hormones into their systems, and i'm sure it neither tastes good or is healthy.
Posted by: nexus 6 at February 27, 2007 3:13 PM
I'm not a vegetarian, nor would this movie make me one. But I believe that the meat-eaters of today are very different than our hunter/gatherer ancestors, who not only had to track, kill, and butcher the animals-- they had to craft the relatively clumsy weapons with which to do it.
It's easy to be wasteful when all you have to do is stop by the grocery store and buy a nicely packaged lb of ground beef. A lot harder to be wasteful if you're on the farm and have to go out and shoot Ole' Bessie, cut her up, and cook her.
Also, you don't have to be a vegetarian to believe that the animals we raise for food should be treated humanely.
So, as a meat-eater, I say this sounds like a wonderful movie. We should never be so out of touch with things that are part of our existence, and if it strikes us as horrible, maybe we should think about what we can do to change it.
Posted by: Ari at February 27, 2007 3:15 PM
I am worried about the human toll myself (although the folks in the clip don't seem to be laboring through anything too difficult) and the cow seemed to die pretty darn quickly and mostly painlessly. And the clean up scene actually made me feel pretty good about how much they clean the mess against ecoli and such.
If you are concerned about the human toll, check it - http://www.smithfieldjustice.com/. The e-savvy folks at the Tar Heel, NC pork plant are going web grass roots. Debilitating repetitive motion injuries and shitty pay. I don't buy Smithfield products anymore, that's for damn sure.
Posted by: Cara at February 27, 2007 3:17 PM
And I don't work at/for/near Smithfield, nor do I know anyone who does - I'm not shamelessly plugging for something (although you'll have to take my word for it). Just passing on knowledge. I live in IL and work in academia.
Posted by: Cara at February 27, 2007 3:20 PM
Though I grew up in a thoroughly urban environment, my parents -- and many of my friends' parents -- were raised on farms, raising and slaughtering their own animals. However, when I talk to them about organic/locally raised meat, they dismiss it as Whole Foods brainwashing. I contend that they don't really think about their ground beef coming from the industrialized meat industry, and instead remember the way they did things and "it must be similar now." No way. Although it may not reach a wide audience, movies like this are important to try to educate people about the current reality of the food chain. It may not change our parents' minds, because they're also products of the Depression and like their meat and produce cheap . . . but at a minimum it puts the information out there.
Posted by: Danger Kitten at February 27, 2007 3:29 PM
Any quick trip on the Internet will reveal many resources for meat and poultry suppliers that have the "certified humane" label, i.e., their processes of raising and slaughtering the animals have been audited and they treat the animals with respect and compassion (I know the vegans will say it's not respectful to eat animals, but let's accept that most people do eat meat and that's not going to change). Yes, the food is usually a little more expensive, but it's not prohibitive. Most of it is available by mail order.
Posted by: PaddyDog at February 27, 2007 3:31 PM
TK. No one is trying to diminish other causes in favor of animal rights, you made that up and then responded to attacks that don't exist. If you perceived an initial negative response to your comments it is probably because in your first post you said the following:
"And frankly, fuck it. If sticking a pair of jumper cables up a pigs ass is what it takes for me to get decent bacon, well then so be it jump start the fucker."
It was a dismissive, cruel and totally obnoxious comment and you deserve to be derided for it (although you were not). I suspect you realize as much yourself and this is why you are subsequently being defensive.
It is wonderful to hear all the great issues you work on, the good news is making compassionate eating decisions takes very little time investment and therefore you could make the world a better place for animals and continue all your wonderful work with the homeless without interruption if you wanted to.
Posted by: Elle at February 27, 2007 3:35 PM
TK has a point about "picking your battles", and too bad more people aren't directly involved with the kinds of socially benevolent and activist causes as he is (I won't, however, assume commenters on this list aren't doing their share.)
I'm also very glad there is a wide enough diversity of people, each choosing their battle, each doing what they can. Therefore, I can't see how anyone could get upset about this film's existence--filmmakers being just as free as anyone else to pick their own battles, too.
I'm also still interested in the fact that there seems to be as much of an emphasis on the human cost of mechanized labour/chemical exposure as there is on animal processing, in this particular industry (we could look at several, I'm sure). Looks like that's one of the battles--it's like two battles for the price of one! I love it when film can connect the socio-political dots like that. Rich stuff.
Maybe too rich for some; I still doubt I'll be able to sit through this one...got about a third the way into the clip and had to stop.
Posted by: ranylt at February 27, 2007 3:47 PM
Wow. I guess I'll think twice before making the 'chicken in the freezer' joke again.
Posted by: Kolby at February 27, 2007 4:03 PM
Actually, Elle, that was NOT why I was being defensive. Because honestly, that was simply a sarcastic comment played for humor. Which obviously didn't work on you, but I'm ok with that.
I was being defensive (which I will freely admit), because of the comments which pointed out that since I was so concerned about "human" issues, I should be concerned with meat and the treatment and prep of it, since it relates to humans as well, both in those that work in the industry, and those who eat it. And I stand by my statement.
Yes, it sucks. Yes, it's sad the way cows and pigs are treated and killed. And yes, it takes a very real toll on humans. But so does buying sneakers. And so does driving a car. So does drinking beer. But it's not a cause I'm getting behind right now. And all the righteous indignation over how I don't care, all the moral outrage, and concerns for my health, both physical and mental, are not going to change that. Because, as I said, I've got my own battles to fight.
I tend to annoy people a bit in these little post-wars because I can sometimes be ineloquent and I swear too much. So I hope my point was made clearly.
Finally, I deserve to be derided because I made a joke about bacon? You're kidding, right?
I know very well that I would never be able to sit through this movie in the theater because I have the aforementioned "delicate sensibilities" and need the ability to pause, rewind, and take a break for something like this.
After watching the 20 seconds of that clip I could get through, I googled "humane slaughter farm animals USA". What I found seems to indicate that rendering the animal "insensible"--aka, with an electric shock--before slaughter is what makes said slaughter humane. There were other provisions, such as banning the use of cattle prods, etc during herding, but in terms of the actual killing itself, this particular cow seems to get the humane treatment. Which of course for a tender-hearted wuss like me raises questions--can I deal with the thought of the happy, grass-fed cows I like to pay extra for meeting their end? I wish I could say no, but realistically, I'm going to keep eating burgers. Especially because I don't like vegetables.
Posted by: Caralyn at February 27, 2007 4:16 PM
I blame the cows for being so tasty.
Posted by: Me at February 27, 2007 4:18 PM
TK, I hope I wasn't one of the judgmental ones you mentioned. My point is simply that if the human issues are the ones that most concern you (and if that is true for you, I am with you), I think it would be difficult to not be pissed about the meat industry and its practices. I agree that you need to choose what you devote your time to, but as Elle pointed out, there is a difference between dismissing a slew of significant issues becuase they might inconvenience you (not having 'decent bacon') and devoting the brunt of your time (or worrying) to another issue (which doesn't exclude the possibility of trying to understand, caring about, and doing the little you can for what might not be your number one priority).
Again, I would just encourage you to read Fast Food Nation. My hunch is that it would make you think...
Posted by: david at February 27, 2007 4:19 PM
I watched the clip and you sure can tell it was shot in Europe. Did you see how clean everything was? Man, you could eat off the floor. I enjoy that the clip ends with clean-up. Very sanitary!
I don't, however, see what's so effecient about the whole cow-in-a-drum thing. What a waste of time. They could really up production by skipping that part and herding the delicious walking steaks into a narrow chute. Little tap on the head (.22 caliber is best), let the blood, then off to the skinner. In America we process cattle 5 times faster than that. USA! USA!
Posted by: Murray Goldfarb at February 27, 2007 4:22 PM
I wonder if this movie (or other movies--haven't seen "Fast Food Nation and I've only read bits and pieces of the book) focuses on the more "scientific" side of the meat industry--e.g., people injecting chickens with different hormones to make their breasts so large that they can't stand up; different chemicals that are added to pork meat to change the fat-mrabling patters in it; etc. That's pretty interesting to see, just because we have no idea of how those hormones and additives will affect us down the line. Our bodies aren't equipped to process these additives, and I think it's good to know about these things so people would know why they should buy more organic things, if possible.
Also, I accept the fact that most people are going to be meat eaters--I tried to be a vegetarian a while back, and it just didn't work in the long run for me--but I don't think there's anything wrong with at least trying to see how we can do things a little more safely and humanely for everyone involved. Just an opinion...
Posted by: em at February 27, 2007 4:23 PM
I've read Fast Food Nation. I found it fascinating. I definitely put some thought into it. And of course I'm not happy with the meat industry. But my POINT, which I have continually been unsuccessful in making, is that if I acted upon everything in this world that pissed me off, I'd never sleep. And neither would you.
And finally, people, please. The bacon thing was a fucking joke. A JOKE. A. FUCKING. JOKE. I apologize for forgetting how goddamn humorless some of this crowd can be when it comes to political correctness. So it slipped out. But I (like Kolby perhaps) get a little tired of nervously editing every post just because it might offend someone's sensibilities.
I also apologize for getting so freaking worked up about this. But I actually mean that apology.
I understand your comment was meant to be funny (although I fail to see the use of sarcasm). I'm a vegetarian myself so I hear similar comments constantly from people who are also trying to be funny. Those comments are generally not funny though because they are ubiqutious for starters but also because they are implicitly dismissive of both the issue itself and the people who care about it and live their lives accordingly. It hits harder in the animal rights context because so many people really and truly don't care about the suffering of animals and don't think it is an issue worthy of attention. I usually have a very unPC sense of humor myself but those types of jokes really piss me off because the people who say them generally mean it. They are trying to be funny but at the same time they are not joking. I can't stomach people who take pride in thier lack of empathy towards the suffering of defenseless animals. I guess I don't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to factory farming. Then again I am one of those people who can watch people being murdered in movies without much reaction but if an animal is killed I'll start crying and get really upset. Shrug.
Posted by: Elle at February 27, 2007 4:51 PM
TK - it was a pretty funny joke.
Posted by: nice at February 27, 2007 4:56 PM
Any quick trip on the Internet will reveal many resources for meat and poultry suppliers that have the "certified humane" label
PaddyDog: Links are accepted here. Please provide at least one.
I do not have a moral problem with animals giving their lives to grace my table. I do have a problem with unnecessary suffering during the process--and with the myriad health issues that factory farming entails (stressed animals, sick animals, hygiene, etc.)--and I'd be delighted with an alternative.
Posted by: Jerce at February 27, 2007 4:58 PM
By the way TK, I find the hypersensitive PC ridiculousness common in the comments sections of this site to be generally insufferable as well. You just happened to hit my only exposed nerve - cute, defenseless animals. My heart is otherwise black.
Author's Note: Hey now! Are you suggesting that we here at Pajiba invite insufferable PC ridiculousness? There's no need to associate a few (well-meaning) humorless commenters in with the philosophy of the site. We all love a "jump-start the pig" joke as much as the next guy and take it with its intended, irreverent meaning.
Sorry to interrupt. Carry on.
Posted by: Elle at February 27, 2007 5:01 PM
TK, I get the joke, but maybe to save you from future internet frustration- when all you have to go from is the post- the written word, people are going to respond to that... not to what you meant.
Posted by: david at February 27, 2007 5:07 PM
I can wholeheartedly say that the largest impact factory farming has is on people. The people that work in the factories/greenhouses/etc and the people that consume the foods. Yes, the treatment of the animals is very important as well, but it is directly caused by people. The mindset of greed, excess and efficiency that has always been present has now fully realized itself through the machinations of the food processing industry. Once enough people realize that the sacrifices and risks involved outweigh the benefits of a cheap meal will we begin to see a mainstream return to traditional farming, a way that benefits both humans and animals. I won't be able to watch this movie, however, actually viewing the wasteful deaths of these animals and exposure of humans to the toxic cleaning and pesticidal chemicals is too much.
Posted by: KC at February 27, 2007 5:13 PM
TK, I'm totally with you.
For another thing: How do you think the "innocent" animals are slaughtered in nature - by predators? It's always a brutal, bloody struggle, the prey are even treated in a playful, almost sadistic manner (cat and mouse, anyone?).
People in western societies are so shielded from the realities of where meat comes from (the supermarket indeed), they are so disturbed by the fact that yes, animals are killed.
I don't hear anyone thinking wolves are mean and horrible for brutally killing the sweet, innocent rabbit. Of course I know the whole argument that people aren't carnivores per se, but there seem to be a lot of disdain out there just for the killing, which happen all the time in the wild.
For the record, I hate animal abuse, and inhumane treatment of animals, and I'm all for raising livestock in a way which doesn't cause suffering. But I don't hate the killing of animals for meat. It's natural.
Posted by: MT at February 27, 2007 5:20 PM
Actually contrary to popular knowledge, meat has done wonderful things for humans. We evolved eating meat and because of that our bodies are able to process fat and cholesterol better than our close relatives in the ape family. There are a million reasons to eat meat and eggs and cheese and drink milk. While it's perfectly understandable to disagree with the treatment of these animals before they reach our tables, it's another thing entirely to swear off a part of your balanced diet.
And as for "organic" foods, it's a way for grocery stores to charge more through the use of fear. "Organic food is no more healthier than regular foods, you're wasting your money" this from a nutritionist with a PhD.
And as for the 1 and 3 statistic on cancer, don't you think it's possible that the reason more people are getting cancer is because less than one hundred years ago the average age of death was 55, it's now roughly 83? The longer you live, the more likely it is you'll end up in the hospital for some health reason or another.
Posted by: Uno at February 27, 2007 5:32 PM
For those of you who think it is cool to butcher animals in a torcherous way, then, I would love to have you switch positions between you and the cow. You sick assholes. It's one thing raising an animal in a healthy condition and killing it humanely and it is another raising it in torcher and killing it in torcher. I for one am switching to vegetarian. For you meat people, may your coffin await you soon.
Posted by: Russ at February 27, 2007 5:37 PM
Uno,
Don't you think that when the average age of death was 55, cancer would still have been an issue unless something changed in our environment? Actually, you're probably right, we get cancer more now because of the chemicals prescribed to us by our doctors, so not only is our meat now pumped full of hormones and preservatives, but so are we!! Who cares how long your life span is if you have to spend the last ten years of it in pain and on medication??? You don't think this has ANYTHING to do with what we put into our bodies?
Posted by: nexus 6 at February 27, 2007 5:37 PM
Also, Uno, since you brought it up, if cancer was only an issue with people over the age of 55, then why do children get cancer? Mull that one over in your brainwashed cranium.
Posted by: nexus 6 at February 27, 2007 5:39 PM
"Author's Note: Hey now! Are you suggesting that we here at Pajiba invite insufferable PC ridiculousness? "
Of course not! It would not be reasonable to assign a philosophy on a site derived from the anonymous comments section, where any lunatic can broadcast thier thoughts/agendas to the world - and I am an infinitely reasonable person. Totally not a lunatic.
Posted by: Elle at February 27, 2007 5:41 PM
And as for the 1 and 3 statistic on cancer, don't you think it's possible that the reason more people are getting cancer is because less than one hundred years ago the average age of death was 55, it's now roughly 83?
Nexus: please look at page 27, 1st column, toward the bottom of the attached CDC document. Apparently, the CDC agrees with Uno that cancer rates increase when people live longer. Also, Uno did not say, or even suggest, that only people over 55 receive cancer diagnoses. While I don't dispute your logic that the crap we eat is likely increasing our risk of cancer (seems pretty obvious when colorectal cancer is the third most common cancer among both men AND women), you don't need to get hysterical and intentionally obtuse to make your point.
We are drowning in straw men over here.
Posted by: juliagulia at February 27, 2007 5:53 PM
Yeah, I think nexus may be of the overly aggressive and slightly paranoid type, who doesn't really know what he/she is talking about...
Posted by: N. Wood at February 27, 2007 6:21 PM
Having been raised on an (organic) beef cattle farm, with a family who actually hunts and then eats what they kill, I have no problem eating meat--I love the stuff. Death is death--I've seen animals killed for food, and animals that die from natural causes, and many times, natural deaths are really cruel and gruesome--I'd love to see what one would consider a "kind" or "humane" way to kill animals for food. Lethal injection, perhaps?
I'm not happy about large scale farming, because it's poor long term practice, and the quality of food you get is inferior (there is DEFINITELY a difference between organic foods and the regular crap you get at the store, even if it's only different flavor.)
Blood and gore are intensely fascinating to most Americans, and I think it's because we've become so far removed from them. We're more than happy to watch gory movies and reality shows featuring conjoined twins and cosmetic surgeries, but in real life gore stops people cold.
And why should the food industry be blamed for soul-sucking jobs? Pipe welding jobs aren't good for the soul. Neither are factory jobs where people make rubber floor mats. But there aren't too many documentaries about floor-mat factory workers and welders, because those aren't things that pull at the heartstrings in the same way.
Why exactly is this movie so shocking? Do people think the meat in the store is from animals picked up off the grassy fields, dead of old age after living a long and fulfilling lives? Maybe animals who died accidental deaths? Cancer victim cows? How silly. Ignorance is indeed bliss--I was rather happy believing other people were educated about something as basic as how food gets to the supermarket.
This movie is just another ploy to get people's attention. And good for the filmmakers, because they met their goal.
Posted by: leiarenee at February 27, 2007 6:26 PM
Elle - point taken. And that's fine. But don't you think it's a little unfair for you to jump on a joke (funny or not), simply because it touches on your button-issue, while letting the rest slide? That said, I appreciate the clarification on your position.
And let me be clear: I'm an animal lover as well. I have SEVEN pets. My wife is a veterinarian, for God's sake. So don't think I'm insensitive to the plight of animals. But then, I'm sensitive to the plight of many things. I just don't jump behind every cause. I guess I just get frustrated when people come to a site that's advertised as scathing or bitchy, then get upset when people are... well... scathing or bitchy.
David, again, I appreciate the post. But seriously - "sticking a pair of jumper cables up a pigs ass" - whether or not you found it humorous, the idea that people thought I was being anything BUT sarcastic, or ironic, or whatever the damn word is, is preposterous.
MT, nice - Thanks. I'll be performing on stage next week. Bring tomatoes. Just please, for fuck's sake, make sure they're organically grown by poets.
Finally, I apologize for the gratuitous posting today. Again, that apology was sincere.
Posted by: TK at February 27, 2007 6:37 PM
TK, I was on your side at first, but holy fuck, are you defensive. Like, beyond measure. You actually did make your point before - we all get it. You are a fan of irreverent comedy, you love animals, and your causes are prioritized. It's all good, I promise.
Besides, with your unending protestation, you're starting to sound like the "Now listen, I have black friends" guy, and no one wants to sound like him.
Posted by: juliagulia at February 27, 2007 6:41 PM
Actually TK just sounds like a giant pussy. You made a joke. It was funny. Move on.
Posted by: Murray Goldfarb at February 27, 2007 6:50 PM
i watched up until the cow start shaking, and had to turn it off. i couldnt even watch the ending of fast food nation, either. yet, im going to still eat meat. theres definitely something wrong with me. oh and also, blah blah blah blah.
Posted by: jordan at February 27, 2007 7:07 PM
Human toll, my ass. Are you out of your fucking minds?!?!?!?
Bullshit. I call motherfucking bullshit.
"...how the meat industry affects people (especially the poor, who work these life-destroying jobs)."
The poor (and before you jump, I'm poor too, so bite it) work "life-destroying jobs" because often they can't get anything else. The lucky few of us that manage to rise above the station we're given in life do so with hard work, perserverance, and more than a little luck.
Leiarenee had it right. This is nothing more than an excuse to push a humanitarian agenda, and while I generally don't have a problem with humantarians (I'm not one myself, I hate the humans), I also don't let people piss in my mouth and tell me it's grape juice.
And c'mon. A clean meat processing plant? Not on this planet baby, not on this planet.
Posted by: Smokin at February 27, 2007 7:27 PM
Hey! Hey!
You know what?! You don't know the meaning of cruelty. You think you do, but ohhhh brother are you spittin in the wind with that one.
I've been renting out a room to two pigs and a cow for 6 months now, and you know what? They're fucking filthy! They leave shit everywhere, they party all night long and when I wake up in the morning I've got feathers and cowpie all over my lawn. Just this morning I found two little porcine mother effers doin the nasty in my backyard while a chicken was filming it with two roosters as gaffers. I say if someone wants to eat the bastards after they've been tazered, gutted and death ray-ed, more power to em. Hell, I haven't had a good steak in a while I may just do it myself. Oh, you think that's cruel? You don't know cruel unless you've been kept awake til 3 in the morning listening to a bull layin' pipe to a Jersey cow for 4 hours.
God damn mother effin vegans.
Posted by: Manny at February 27, 2007 7:39 PM
Wow, nothing like personal dietary habits to get people talking.
I've been a vegetarian since I was ten, mainly because the idea of eating flesh repulses me. I don't try to preach at people to stop eating it; the health benefits of white meat and fish are well-documented and it's definitely a heavy lifestyle change for anyone not entirely committed. I mostly think people just need to be respectful of what their friends are eating. I won't moralize at your while you chow down on your burger if you don't dangle pepperoni in front of my face.
The inhumane aspect of the meat industry is just one of the reasons I choose not to eat animals. For every person who smugly tells me "For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three," as if they came up with that witticism themselves, I tell them to go ahead. I don't care. Everyone knows that the methods used in slaughterhouses are horrific, but some people just want to eat what they've always eaten without having to put thought into three meals a day. I think it's sad, and I think that attitude contributes to the obesity and complacency epidemics sweeping our nation.
Hopefully people who've never seen an animal in their bacon will see this movie and be able to think for themselves in a more educated manner about their choice to eat meat. I will never watch it; I will literally throw up. But I will only recommend it to those people who feel the need to repeatedly question my dietary choices and try to convince me of the errors of my ways.
Posted by: Brianne at February 27, 2007 7:40 PM
Wait, you mean to tell me there aren't hamburger patties grazing in a field somewhere in Wisconsin?
What about the stories my mom told me about the steak fairy that brings porterhouses to good little boys and girls?
Or Bacon Claus, who rides his sleigh pulled by eight tiny lambchops and slides down our chimney's after we're in bed and lovingly leaves packages of thick cut hickory smoked bacon under my pillow?
My God.....fuck it, they taste great.
Posted by: Manny at February 27, 2007 7:47 PM
Just some quick points:
Russ - It is a bit hard to take your protestations seriously when you misspell torture so horrendously.
TK - Dude, it was a joke. And quite funny. But juliagulia is right. The constant explanations weren't needed, and end up deflating your argument. And this is from someone who is still checking out the DLG comments for more ranty fun.
Smokin - I agree, humans as a whole (and many in particular) do suck righteously.
The clip above really didn't get to me. Maybe because I don't eat pork. Or maybe because I come from a family that had me eat squirrel (that I skinned by the way). And yet I hate horror movies of any kind, but especially slasher films. Go figure.
Posted by: Vermillion at February 27, 2007 8:13 PM
Holy shit.
I cried when I saw that cow.
Posted by: Lucy at February 27, 2007 8:16 PM
Based on the review of this movie, many of you come off as experts. Have any of you been inside a meat-packing plant? Have you seen the animals tasered? Have you seen the hide pullers in action? Have you seen the carcasses then put on hooks and moved down the line? Have you seen anything, personally, that happens inside? I have seen everything in person. I work for a meat-packing plant. I have seen from when the cow is killed to when it is packaged and boxed and loaded onto a trailer. At this facility alone we process over 5,000 cattle a day. Does it seem cruel how the animals are killed? Quite possibly, but how else would we get our meat? Not everyone is willing to become a vegetarian, nor should they be compelled to.
How many of you that excoriate the meat-packing industry buy dog food? Surely you must know that dry dog food has cow parts in it. Just the like American Indians with the buffalo, we use every part of the cow. Heart, liver, tongue, cheek meat, tail, parts of the intestine (tripe) and naturally the meat on the bones, all of this we eat. Lungs, eyes, bone, soon become dog food, horse, pig, and cow feed. The skin becomes leather jackets and other leather items. The excess fat when rendered down become Jell-O, margarine, and other products. And of course, who can forget the cornucopia of goodness that is the hot dog.
The human toll is something to be reckoned with, but with any sort of assembly line-type job, one must cope or get out. So far, 3,000 people a day are willing to cope and they (for the most part) still eat meat. I see them carrying out boxes of said beef everyday. This company provides very nice wages (more than I'm getting paid for my office work) and some killer benefits for less than $30 a week. You would be hard pressed to find a better employer in that arena, in this area. To see these people outside of work, you would wonder whether they truly do the jobs they say they do. Most of them are very upbeat or at least enjoying their life. That obviously does not take in account what is going on inside their heads, but does anybody but ourselves truly know how we feel?
Oh, and for those that think it is cheap and fressh to get out of a supermarket, you got nothing on getting straight from the source. Beef fresh off the line is the best and the cheapest.
Posted by: ScarletKnight at February 27, 2007 8:19 PM
Vermillion, JuliaGulia - when you're right, you're right. I got worked up in the heat of the moment, and uncontrolled blabbering ensued.
But I refuse to be insulted by someone named Goldfarb. So bite me.
Posted by: TK at February 27, 2007 8:23 PM
I wish there WAS a Bacon Claus. With a trusty little sidekick named Goldie the Cheese Ball.
Posted by: Sharon at February 27, 2007 8:35 PM
Stick a Vegan with livestock on a deserted island with a limited food supply, and he's gonna be roasting those suckers in no time.
Those animals could have been decapitated but they were not. Just zapped really hard. It's better than being thrown in a meat grinder alive.
And while I do have vegan tendencies, it's only cause my ass is getting fat.
Posted by: Shidedaion at February 27, 2007 8:37 PM
Manny, all I can say is wow...Bacon Claus...on Shank, on Thigh, on Loin Wing. I am impressed.
Posted by: ScarletKnight at February 27, 2007 8:39 PM
All this talk of meat is making me hungry.
Posted by: Some Guy at February 27, 2007 9:07 PM
OK - cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys are all bred to produce food. If we all stopped eating said animals, they would take over the world because they would keep breeding and not being used as a food source. Think "Animal Farm".
Oh - and I hope all of the vegetarians/I love the animals people don't own anything leather, a baseball, a football, a down coat, a down pillow, a down comforter, have never played a stringed instrument, fed their dog Alpo...etc. I knew a girl in college that would lecture me about enjoying a hamburger while wearing her leather jacket - I said "Thank God I did or you'd be a little cold right now."
I love animals. Especially in a good gravy.
Posted by: Clevegal42 at February 27, 2007 9:48 PM
We could feed the starving if people stopped eating meat. Meat is a luxury made cheap by government subsidies. It takes 7 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef. If you want to save humans, stop feeding the damn cows, Kolby. Oh, and I'm not watching this clip. I helped gut a deer once and that's enough blood and poop for me.
Posted by: Kim at February 27, 2007 9:57 PM
I would say that 14,000 lbs of grain is a good enough trade for a sizeable cow. Meat is not a luxury. It is a vital part of many diets. And besides by not feeding the cattle, you would be starving them and are therefore being cruel to them. So good luck with that.
Posted by: ScarletKnight at February 27, 2007 10:51 PM
"For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three,"
Yay! Maddox!
And that's all I'm going to say on this issue, because I know I'm going to make an arsehole out of myself on this thread.
Posted by: Chantelle at February 28, 2007 12:15 AM
And as for "organic" foods, it's a way for grocery stores to charge more through the use of fear. "Organic food is no more healthier than regular foods, you're wasting your money" this from a nutritionist with a PhD.
Uno, my brother, you're going to have to be a bit more convincing if you intend to sway this audience. Maybe put a fact or two in that paragraph? (Also, I'm not sure I'd go to a nutritionist who would use the phrase "more healthier.")
Everyone's making some fabulous points here, but I especially like what leiarenee and ScarletKnight have said thus far. The methods portrayed in the above clip shouldn't come as a shock to anyone...sure, it's a cold reality, but it is what it is. If you don't like it, speak up!
Posted by: Jen at February 28, 2007 12:23 AM
Honestly? I'd rather spend my time worrying about feeding the hungry, or housing the homeless, than worry about that. Once we get the human stuff sorted out, then talk to me about animals.
Yeah about that...I think it's something like 1/3 of the world's grain is given to animals going to slaughter? So cutting down on factory farming would totally help feed the hungry. People could eat instead of giving all their food to animals! Not to mention all the land that would be freed-up and made available for agriculture by getting rid of those massive cattle feed-lots in third world countries. Without the meat industry eople could actually sustain themselves on their own crops, imagine!
I think it's shortsighted so-called pragmatical people like this that are the ones who really need to see this movie. This industrialization of food and life (human and animal)isn't a necessary evil. It's just evil and it isn't going to stop as long as people keep dismissing it like that.
Posted by: Sara at February 28, 2007 1:12 AM
To those who felt guilty after watching the video but can't bring themselves to act on their feelings and change their eating habits:
YOU ARE FOOLS. Complacent fools. The industry obviously exploits the animals. It exploits people. It exploits the environment. Its products contribute to scores of health problems, many of which are tied to our country's obesity epidemic. Seeing a cow being killed might make you want to cry for five minutes and then try to banish the image from your mind. RESIST THE URGE. THINK ABOUT IT. THIS IS REALITY. IT'S A REALITY THAT YOU SUPPORT. Own that or stop eating meat, you miserable fools.
Posted by: Abe Lincoln at February 28, 2007 1:17 AM
I've been both a vegetarian and an omnivore at one time or another. Won't say which I am now. There's no getting around that the eating of animals, by other animals, is a fact of life. It is often bloody and cruel. Who hasn't watched a nature show? It's also true that not all animals eat meat. And that animals will change their diets depending on what kind of food is available. So I see nothing wrong with having both kinds of people in the world.
The problem lies in willful ignorance and hypocrisy. I'll argue that this is the basis of most problems in the world, including all the ones you're working on, TK. We as Americans seem to be encouraged to live ignorantly. 99.9% of the other animals on this planet don't have that luxury. They know EXACTLY where their last meal came from, and have already started thinking about their next, and how to get it. That's what life is all about, people.
In other words, if you eat meat, you should know exactly how the fuck it got to be sitting in front of you. Otherwise you're not really living.
TK, you need a vacation ;)
Posted by: oaklandcat at February 28, 2007 1:22 AM
Plants, too, for that matter. That is-- know where your veggies came from...
Getting off the soapbox now. I'm actually a nice person and fun at parties...
Posted by: oaklandcat at February 28, 2007 1:24 AM
I hate to say it, but every time a giant tiller rolls its treads across a field to shred wheats, grains, and the like, it flattens and kills thousands of small mammals, birds, their offspring, and insects. Hardly a "humane" death.
Posted by: Uninvisible at February 28, 2007 3:13 AM
Please before you cast judgement on another lifestyle consider the resources and cruelties you inflict in order to maintain yours. Vegetables don't arrive magically at the store, it is back breaking work for very low wages. Cheap towels and t-shirts don't just pop up at the mall, someone somewhere is working very hard for what is likely very little pay to provide this to you. Everything has a cost and the goal is to minimize the costs; they cannot be eliminated entirely.
Posted by: Clarity at February 28, 2007 4:37 AM
I grew up on a small farm. I learned how to kill and prepare for the table chickens, ducks(until we learned that night that my father is deathly allergic to duck meat and eggs), turkeys, sheep, and goats. I watched my father shoot them. I helped clean and skin them. We waited for him to cut out the livers, holding a large enamelled bowl to whisk it off to my mother to be immediately fried and consumed.
These were the same animals that I and my family had raised from birth. They all had names. And, incredible as it may seem to you, they were all amazingly delicious. I eat meat. I also eat vegetables.
Want to know what is disgusting? Seeing a coyote rip the leg off a living sheep as it struggles to get away, and being unable to chase it off because your parents had not yet bought a gun. seeing a raccoon bite the heads off 20 chickens in one night, not for food but for fun. he left their heads and bodies all over the chicken yard. when he came back the next night my father shot him and hung his skin on the porch. what is disgusting is having the neighbor's dog come onto your property every night and kill your turkeys because it likes blood.
Don't you dare tell me humans are cruel and nature is not.
Posted by: Colleen at February 28, 2007 5:28 AM
um, go see the movie, people. it doesn't merely concern itself with the meat industry but every little branch of agriculture as well. I refuse to eat anything that's not grown 'organic'...
Posted by: x at February 28, 2007 5:36 AM
"And as for the 1 and 3 statistic on cancer, don't you think it's possible that the reason more people are getting cancer is because less than one hundred years ago the average age of death was 55, it's now roughly 83?"
'Average age of death'? Please. There's a big difference between 'life expectancy' and 'average age of death' - the former has risen substantially over the past century, but that's due to decreasing infant/child mortality, not grown-ups living much longer than they always have.
***
I'm an omnivore, although habit takes me closer to a vegetarian. My only real ethical issue with meat-eating is exactly the fact that most people don't know where it's coming from. And I don't even mean knowing whether it was ethically killed, whether it was grass-fed or corn-fed - but even the simple fact that an animal had to be killed for their food.
Many haven't made the conceptual leap that that steak was once cow muscle, that meat pie probably has snout and hooves in it (in the processed food industry, the definition of 'meat' is very loose in the first place) - and people are happy that way because they know that if they did think about it, they wouldn't be able to eat meat anymore (gee, what a great loss that would be!).
Although I'm obviously fine with the basic concept of eating meat, it annoys me no end when people are willing to avoid knowledge so they wouldn't feel compelled to change their habits.
I'm not saying organic food is really the only sound alternative, either. Most organic food is actually produced in a handful of massive farming compounds (not exactly the agrarian utopia of 'local family working together), and while there may not be any pesticides or hormone feed involved you can be sure the working conditions and pay aren't any better than at normal farms, and trucking a tonne of barn laid eggs from one giant producer across the continent pollutes just as much as if the eggs were battery-laid.
Yep, we need to pick our battles. It's just a bit demoralising knowing there are so many to shoose from...
Posted by: Spongie at February 28, 2007 5:46 AM
"Own it or change your eating habits."
K. Owned. Eggs and bacon.
-Jon.
Posted by: Jon at February 28, 2007 7:37 AM
This is about feeding people. Eating meat leads to "other people" starving. It takes a whole lot of food to produce one pounds of meat. Take that food and give it to dozens of people instead of one cow. That's how you get it done. So go ahead and eat your yummy bacon, but when you see picture of people starving "over there," don't pretend you're not part of the problem. It's you, plain and simple.
Posted by: K at February 28, 2007 10:24 AM
Think about it. Fast food hamburger places all over the world. Hundreds of thousands of them, open every single day. When have you seen a MacDonald's closed during the day? Every corner liqor store, every supermarket, has milk permanently available. It amazes me that people posting have not figured out that this is CAPITALIST food, that is, low-grade food built on waste and engineered to turn a profit and get the capitalist on the Fortune 500 list. They dont care if you live or die from their food as long as there are plenty more to replace you. They pump the plants and animals full of hormones and chemicals to make them fatter and mature faster to they can turn a profit more quickly. They feed sick dead cows to live cows because its cheaper. Upton Sinclair, a socialist, denounced the meat packing industry. The time has come to overhaul the system from its roots. Factory-type farms should be done away with. We have to get rid of capitalism and find ways to distribute food to people all over the world, and get rid of poverty. MacDonalds etc., has its food all over the world but has increased poverty by taking over native agricultural lands for cattle raising instead, which pauperizes the peasant land owners. Getting rid of capitalist production means humane treatment of animals, raised healthy, and getting rid of the waste-for -profit mentality. Fast food joints should be open only on certain days. Meats should be rationed permanently- there is no reason to eat it more than 2- 3 times a week. Starving people could keep from starving, fat people would save their arteries. Food should be subsidized.
Posted by: ANTONIO at February 28, 2007 10:27 AM
"Don't you dare tell me humans are cruel and nature is not."
Don't worry, no one said nature is not cruel. Deep breath.
For the record, this sentiment that because there is pain, suffering and death in nature we, as humans, have a free pass to conduct our industries as irresponsibly as we like is asinine to me. We are humans - we evolved out of operating by the rules of the jungle a long time ago. There are certain species of animals that copulate by force, in nature. Does that mean we should repeal all rape laws and accept rape as a natural reality? Hey, rape is natural! Woo hoo!! Start running ladies! We are PEOPLE, we can think, empathize and recogize painful/negative situations and it is within our power to minimize the suffering of the defenseless animals we use for food. However, we don't do it because we would rather gorge our collective fat asses on excessive amounts of hormone drenched meat. We continue to gorge until our hearts are so caked in fat and cholesterol it kills us. You can argue there are health benefits to meat (I haven't eaten meat in 8-9 years and I'm still kicking though) however, the average person eats way way WAY more meat than is healthy. If people would simply cut their meat consumption to healthy and reasonable levels alot of the atrocities of factory farming could be minimized; less animals would be bred into a life of suffering, there would be less land destruction and more grains to feed humans. Gluttony is a big factor here, to pretend otherwise is disingenuous, and it is really disappointing.
Posted by: Elle at February 28, 2007 10:32 AM
Far too many people allow themselves to continue certain practices just because it's easy. Well, get the fuck over yourselves, grow a heart, and take the tough road sometimes (it's not even that tough). How can you say, "Well they taste good" as justification for perpetuating barbaric practices? And no, one person alone cannot save all the whales, protect all the rainforests, and feed all the starving children everywhere. But why not do the best you can? Buy organic. Have a meat-free day once a week. Walk instead of drive. Recycle. It might all sound preachy or over-simplified, but isn't it always better to try rather than to give up in the name of complacency?
Posted by: b at February 28, 2007 10:37 AM
ugh. poor cow-face. breaks my heart.
Posted by: ariel at February 28, 2007 10:52 AM
I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals; I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants.
(Ok, I'm more of a "I'm not a vegetarian because I really, really love sushi, and the occasional piece of chicken", but I just thought I'd lighten the mood a bit ^_^)
Posted by: Alex at February 28, 2007 11:02 AM
My apologies to Uno. Unfortunately, typed text is devoid of nuance. (Although I accept and apologize for the brainwashed cranium comment. Cheers.) And yes, kudos to you juliagulia, for referencing some interesting material. I certainly didn't do my argument any justice, but since the only error you found in my words was my 'hysteria', perhaps something was lost in translation.
My point is that it should be important to every one of us what we put into our bodies. Our children's bodies. Yes, I am passionate about that. That doesn't mean I judge people or their choices, I only question their knowledge and understanding.
It seems only reasonable that older people are more likely to get cancer, but I don't think that it is because we live longer. Since the Great Depression, our society has been subjected to government-supported corporations that have no conscience; their only goal is to increase profit. At the time, when our economy needed serious reviving, that was great.
But now, it comes at the cost of our quality of life, and our planet's health. Corporations do anything to increase potential profit. (See Monsanto Corporation and the hormone BGH/rBST.)
They feed this crap to an unknowing, uninformed public (if the milk you were drinking was coming from the infected udders of an unhealthy, hormone-treated cow, I'm guessing you'd want to know) and when we get sick, another corporation has a magic pill. Even the FDA turns a blind eye is the price is right.
It isn't as simplistic as lifespan, or animal abuse; we have to look to the source. Who is saying that the cost of human life isn't a cost worth considering? The answer is any given board of directors that willingly floods the market with inexpensive, unhealthy products, searching for a profit. Elimiate expense, increase productivity, increase revenue. This is all they know.
Seriously: watch the documentary The Corporation.
Posted by: nexus 6 at February 28, 2007 11:26 AM
"It is a fact that vegetarians will live longer than meat eaters.
Posted by: toni at February 27, 2007 3:05 PM"
Bullshit, it is not a fact.
Posted by: tfffp at February 28, 2007 11:57 AM
Let's get real here people. You can be a vegetarian or vegan because you have the right to consume whichever foods you wish as you wish. I can eat cows and pigs because that's my right. But let's not confuse the issue by saying that we carnivores are contributing to the debasment of society by corporate America all by ourselves. Please don't expect me to swallow the fact that you don't feed the machine in your own special way.
You have right in this country to believe whatever you want to believe and not be persecuted for it, right? So what's the difference between a carnivore and a herbivore? Nothing. Just a different point of view. So why all the anger, my nature-sensitive friends? Is it because deep down, you know that your organic products contribute to the class division in our country just as much as the rest of the food production industry? Is it because you care so much about animals that you would rather see the rest of starve (which is ok, I don't necessarily disagree, but then I hate people)? Or is it that you just can't stand it that someone disagrees with what you view as the only possible way of life?
Or has it just been too long since you had a good steak?
(I apologize in advance for that one, but you've all irritated the crap out of me with this nonsense. Like I said earlier, don't piss in my mouth and tell me it's grape juice.)
Posted by: Smokin at February 28, 2007 12:07 PM
Yes, we all have the right to eat what we want- from vegans to carnivores. And yes, there are surely ways that we all are contributing to the 'debasement of society.' No doubt. I think the point that many are making, though, is that if we see a way that we are contributing to said debasement, we should do what we can to stop! And that will look different for different people, of course. But I think much of the reaction from the 'nature-sensitive' posters comes from frustration (understandably), by those unwilling to consider how they are contributing to the problem simply because they like meat too much. They are all complicated issues, and there is no simple solution (like 'if we all stopped eating meat everything would be fine')- those who have made the choice to not eat meat are not off the hook, but at least they are looking around at the situation and trying to do what they can to make things better (some, anyway). That seems a better response than saying, 'screw it. the world is full of problems. i like meat too much to even think about how my consuming it might be contributing to those problems.'
Posted by: david at February 28, 2007 12:54 PM
Hoo boy, you know it's gonna be a blast when the vegetarians arrive, but it's not a party until the SOCIALISTS show up!
Although I gotta say, in ethical meat's defense, once you eat a big fat farm-raised Hutterite turkey, you never want to eat another puny caged Butterball.
Posted by: Heather at February 28, 2007 1:05 PM
WOW. This review has REALLY brought out the ignorance in people.
To those who defend the meat industry and yet bash this movie--
Look, I think the review made it clear that this movie offers no commentary. It simply shows what happens. In reality. There's no dramatic music, nothing to make you feel one way or the other besides images of what really takes place.
My point has been that people who eat meat need to be aware of where their meat comes from. Not so that they will stop eating meat, but so that they can appreciate the process. For those of you who have gone hunting, killed, and butchered an animal-- you know. I have a feeling that many hunters value life more than a lot of the ignorant vegans who eat wasabi trail mix at feminist rallies.
Russ-- You come across as braindead. Suddenly, based on this, you're switching to vegetarian and you hope "our coffins await us soon"? Well good luck to you. I fully expect you to be one of those vegetarians who thinks he can get by on iceberg lettuce and vegetarian refried beans who turns pasty-skinned and withers away while throwing ketchup on people's fur coats.
Kim-- You are an ignorant, ignorant person. So if we stopped feeding the cows we would have enough grain to feed the starving? Oh where do I -begin- with you. There is no shortage of food on earth. people are not starving because there is a shortage of food. There is PLENTY of food. The problem is distributing food to the hungry. Get educated before you say another word on that subject. People who don't know what they're talking about need to SHUT UP.
There are aspects of the meat industry that are cruel and inhumane. I am not saying that this movie necessarily shows those. But it shows what it takes for us to eat, and most of us in wealthy countries are, as already stated, too far removed from the nature of life. Our sick, our aged and infirm, are neatly removed from us, for the most part. Our food is packaged in nice styrofoam and plastic. Our sewage goes down the potty, our garbage in a nice clean plastic garbage can which other people take away for us twice a week.
We're sanitized, mentally, emotionally, and physically.
We need to be reminded that life is NOT sanitary and pristine. Where better to start than in the stuff we survive off of-- our food!
Wow, I really went off on a tangent but I'd just like to end by saying--
Manny, you should have your own prime-time show. You're awesome.
Posted by: Ari at February 28, 2007 1:06 PM
Jerce: Sorry it took me so long to respond. I had to be off the computer for most of yesterday. Anyway, I'm glad there's an interest in this. These two links below will bring compassionate carnivores to information on how to eat meat from animals that have been treated with respect during their lives and slaughtered appropriately. Note: I don't work for any of these organizations, but I am in the public health/epidemiology field and I do believe them to be healthier alternatives as well as obviously more compassionate. It's not necessarily an organic thing (livestock can actually be fed a completely organic diet and therefore qualify for the organic label and yet still be abused or deprived from grazing in pastures).
When I got through all of the comments, I saw you had a McDonald's ad at the bottom of the page. Hee.
Posted by: Charlotte at February 28, 2007 1:57 PM
UPTON SINCLAIR JUST ROLLED OVER IN HIS GRAVE.
Posted by: brandt Wrightsman at February 28, 2007 2:06 PM
PaddyDog--thank you for the links!
Smokin--hell, I enjoy the shit out of a really good, juicy NY strip steak every time I have one. But, I have to say, it's also good for me to know whether or not the cow I'm consuming was pumped full of chemicals and hormones that my body can't process, and wasn't made to process. Just sayin'. It's possible to want to eat meat because it tastes good, but it's not hard to also want to know where it comes from and what happens to it on its way to your plate.
Posted by: em at February 28, 2007 3:54 PM
i want to see a documentary about how they make crayons. i could watch that for hours...
Posted by: mkm at February 28, 2007 4:16 PM
"It is a fact that vegetarians will live longer than meat eaters."
And they will spend most of those extra years with the most horrendous gas. We had one vegetarian co-worker who could clear out an entire office. And she had no sense of smell, so she didn't know.
I'll take my Carnivore Colon Cancer over the shame of an office full of people calling me "Fartypants" behind my back.
Posted by: Craig at February 28, 2007 4:31 PM
I would love to know how many of the smug vegetarians on this comment page wear leather shoes, needlessly drive a car, or (gasp!)smoke...
Many years ago I was on welfare and therefore know how many twinkies and ramen cups one can live on each week, and let me tell you it's a helluva lot more than healthy veggies and good juices...and I was alone, no kids to worry about keeping healthy too.
Today, I am thankful for the healthy food that I (usually) can afford to eat each day- salads are good! But steaks are good too!- a constant awareness of where our food comes from is important...BUT the dirty secret is- EATING WELL COSTS MONEY and while a lot of people in the US would LOVE to eat healthier/even go vegan- THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO.
So before you judge, take a look at yourself- what are YOU doing to better this world?- and/or try to see beyond the small world that is your own farty little universe.
Posted by: Be Adequite! at February 28, 2007 5:21 PM
Dear Be Adequite!,
I just want to state for the record that I don't see how anyone can argue with what you've just said here. Not only is your point reasonably valid, but your name brings the lolz.
(Although I would be remiss in not pointing out that meat is expensive too, which of course you know, since the twinkies and ramen you ate during your lean years contain no more meat than they contain wholesome, organic vegetables. But regardless.)
Regards,
Julia Gulia
Posted by: juliagulia at February 28, 2007 6:58 PM
Just to be snarky, I will include the following (and it should be noted for all you carnivores out there, there is nothing and I mean nothing better than a good Kobe beef steak. I would not personally buy it, but if it is offered to taste, you bet your sweet ass that I'm all in.)
Kobe Beef could make a vegetarian switch teams
"This Kobe skirt steak could make a vegetarian switch teams. As you'd expect from Kobe beef, it's beyond tender and buttery."
Kristen Cook, Arizona Daily Star, December 22, 2005
When that meat hit my tongue, I would honestly believe that Ms. Cook was telling the truth.
Posted by: ScarletKnight at February 28, 2007 7:03 PM
Wow, some really interesting comments here. In 1997, I decided to go vegetarian. I'd been playing with the idea for a couple of years, for health reasons, but the more I read about the treatment of food animals, the more I thought I didn't want to contribute to that, and I voted with my wallet by choosing not to eat meat. It wasn't hard for me, because I never liked red meat to begin with. I did miss turkey and dressing, and seafood.
I've heard all the comments and jokes that any vegetarian hears. I read as much as I could find about nutrition so that I could be sure I was getting what I needed. I can honestly say that some of the most delicious food I've ever tasted was vegetarian, whether it was at the World Vegetarian Society convention I attended in Las Vegas, or the specially-prepared vegetarian dinners on two cruises.
I never was vegan. I drew my line there, and while I didn't throw out my leather shoes, I didn't buy any more. I didn't preach to anyone about my lifestyle, although I considered myself sufficiently well educated to be able to answer questions about my diet.
One of the things I learned was that in any given group of people, I was generally the LEAST picky eater! Funny how it's socially acceptable to say that one hates carrots, or spinach, or Chinese food, but if you say you don't eat meat, it seems to throw people into a tizzy.
And I don't even mean in a "meat is murder" kind of way. Once you inform someone you're a vegetarian, their responses tend to fall into these categories:
1) "Well, I don't eat that much meat." Okay, but your diet is your business. I don't think less of you because you eat meat.
2) "What do you EAT?" My husband, when we first started dating, thought that all a vegetarian ate was vegetables. Once we'd gone out a few times and shared some meals, he realized I ate pretty much the same foods as he did, just without meat.
3) "You know, carrots feel pain." Har har.
Then there's the people who think that by your choosing not to eat meat, you're somehow passing judgment on them because they do. Sure, as with any group that goes against the status quo, there are vegetarians who make everyone look silly: the overly militant; the clueless (technically, Coke and Twinkies are vegetarian); the sprouts-and-tofu-only crowd.
I'm no longer a vegetarian. A couple of years ago, I decided to have some turkey and dressing at Thanksgiving, knowing it would neither kill me nor undo my efforts for the rest of the year. After that, I decided that from then on, I was going to eat what I wanted--within moderation--and not beat myself up over it. I still don't eat pork or beef, mainly because I never liked them to begin with, but now I have turkey or chicken, and my beloved seafood. But I still eat a lot of vegetarian meals, because the biggest legacy of my vegetarian years was the enormous variety of foods that opened up for me, things I might never have tried otherwise.
Also, I was diagnosed as type 2 diabetic, which meant that all those things I used to fill up on (potatoes, pasta, rice) weren't good for me in the quantities that I used to eat them. Oddly enough, a baked potato will raise my blood sugar more than a piece of chocolate cake. But I digress...
Ultimately, I think each consumer must decide for him or herself not only what s/he can live with, but what the rest of the world can live with as a consequence. The best thing to do is gently educate, not whack people over the head using truth as a weapon. And caring for animals doesn't mean that you care any less about humans; I don't think that it's a world where we can only have "The Jungle" or Crunchy Granola Tofu Heaven.
Posted by: Noelegy at February 28, 2007 7:18 PM
I forgot to add: it behooves each of us to eat with awareness. As others have said, if you want to eat meat, that's fine. Just don't pretend that it's fun for the cow.
Posted by: Noelegy at February 28, 2007 7:20 PM
this board is chock-a-block fulla pussies.
Don't you know that if cows are in pain, it sends endorphines through the body that make the meat extra tasty?
I found the clip to show the ingenious methods man has developed to feed my fat ass.
Posted by: mothy at February 28, 2007 7:46 PM
"I think the review made it clear that this movie offers no commentary. It simply shows what happens. In reality. There's no dramatic music, nothing to make you feel one way or the other besides images of what really takes place."
Uh, yeah, ever heard of editing? Or do you truly believe the filmmakers had had no opinions and made no choices about how this was filmed and assembled?
"Documentaries" ALL have a point to get across, no matter how "objective" they may seem.
_________________________________________________
Facing up to the facts of life doesn't mean that people are saying "screw it." Eating tofu means that unborn bean plants die. Are vegan/tarians just prejudiced against plants? If it were really a matter of caring about preserving all life, you'd have a lot fewer choices--rocks, some fruit, grass...sounds tasty to me!
The reason we feed grains to animals is that those animals can digest grains better than humans--go ahead and try to live on cow feed. Kicking animals out of the chain and feeding starving people animal feed is not a solution. Growing crops that humans can eat directly takes up a lot of acreage; as has been mentioned before, it takes a lot of cheap labor to care for those delicate crops. And as was also mentioned, there's more to the current starvation problem than a lack of food. Going back to more sustainable forms of agriculture would decrease the food supply.
So what are vegan/atarians doing to reduce world starvation, environmental problems, and general malcontent, other than not eating meat? Are they refusing to buy cheap, mass produced goods? Living in homes built from non-chemically treated materials? Using only "natural" health care and cleaning products? Buying only clothes made from all natural fibers? Wearing said clothes until they have holes, then patching and wearing some more? Working for businesses that unfailingly support global ecosystems? Eating/reusing every scrap of foodstuff they buy? Eschewing plastic everything? Going only those places that your feet or trusty horse can take you?
If you don't eat meat because you don't like it, think animals are too cute, fine. If you don't eat it because you to eat, or for personal health reasons, fine. But if you're not eating meat in order to solve the world's problems, get off your high horse and join the rest of us in the real world.
Growing food organically on a large scale takes a lot of time, energy, and money. Are you willing to give up your cushy, high priced "socially responsible" life in a capitalist, service-based society to spend the majority of your time raising food? Or is it more important to focus your energy on activities like reading, writing, watching tv and movies, playing sports, etc? Producing food "organically" depends on growing seasons and luck. Are you willing to give up the dependability of your food supply?
Scapegoating commercially grown meat isn't going to solve the problems of mass produced everything else. The meat industry is simply an easy target.
I personally blame the world's problems on tofu.
Posted by: leiarenee at February 28, 2007 8:00 PM
anyone notice vegans-vegetarians are usually females that were raised in wealthy families and never had to handle "icky" meat ?
I have noticed this not only on this board but all over the US.
Do some hard work and experience life a little and things like "organic comet cleanser" and "farm raised bleach" are exposed as what they really are...marketing ploys.
as far as veganism etc goes...
It's like what Paul Newman said in Hombre to the woman who scoffed at the Indians for eating dog:
"Have you ever been hungry, lady? Now I don't mean just "ready for supper" - I mean REAL hungry. You'd eat dog, lady. You'd fight for the bones"
I challenge any of you here to prove to me that veganism is nothing more than a rich man's endeavor.
Posted by: mothyagain at February 28, 2007 8:02 PM
Noelegy, I have to say, yours is the best comment I have read so far.
It is like I always say: Never mess with a person's food or money. Too much trouble stems from it.
Posted by: Vermillion at February 28, 2007 10:30 PM
this video makes me laugh at the city folks who never raised a crop, harvested wheat, shot a rabbit, raised a garden, or humanely (spelling?) put a .22 caliber in the brain of a mature steer.
Posted by: david at February 28, 2007 10:41 PM
I have never posted here before, but I must interject another opinion into this debate.
I applaud those among us who are 'mindful' eaters of any type. After all, we are what we eat, and after years of eating 'mindlessly' I now understand what that means. It means taking responsiblity for what goes in your mouth. Why do you think this country is full of obese people? We no longer have any connection to where our food comes from or what it is made of. It comes pre-made and pre-packaged with no resemblance to its ingredients at all. We give little, if any, thought to where it came from or how it was prepared. We stuff our faces, but do not taste the food. Just as well, since it is chock full of chemicals and additives that companies like Monsanto and Dow have so graciously invented and have nothing to do with good nutrition or taste.
The rich spend thousands of dollars on fancy kitchens with all the latest gadgets and appliances, though it is only rarely that they actually cook their own food. The poor among us find it cheaper to buy the pre-fab food found at fast food restaurants and rarely cook either.
Honestly, I think civilization took a wrong turn when industrialisation became the latest and greatest thing back in the 1800s. I have no answer for how to solve any of the problems that humanity has brought upon itself, but now, at least, I try to be aware of what I am eating.
Posted by: ladygreyreiver at February 28, 2007 10:44 PM
meat and dairy eaters and leather-wearers, etc are the reason i'm pro-abortion. fucking assholes.
Posted by: vegan at March 1, 2007 12:17 AM
My comment" "I think the review made it clear that this movie offers no commentary. It simply shows what happens. In reality. There's no dramatic music, nothing to make you feel one way or the other besides images of what really takes place."
leiarenee: "Uh, yeah, ever heard of editing? Or do you truly believe the filmmakers had had no opinions and made no choices about how this was filmed and assembled?
"Documentaries" ALL have a point to get across, no matter how "objective" they may seem."
Yeah, I have heard of editing, thanks for asking. I have in fact taken part in many aspects of film production on an academic level.
As someone with more than a casual interest in how documentaries are made and truth is revealed, I have given the topic of inevitable opinions in documentaries a great deal of thought, and the fact remains that while a film maker chooses his shots, and can edit out things he doesn't want the audience to see, thus colouring the truth, the images shown in this movie are images of what takes place. They filmed what happens. Even assuming they edited out the part where the farmer hugged the cow and gave him a nice massage while the cow dined upon a last meal of seared grass brushed in olive oil and white wine, the footage that IS shown remains unprocessed. This is, folks, what takes place in a slaughter house.
Besides, taking your own point a step further, if in fact it is completely impossible for a film maker to make a matter of fact documentary untainted by overt opinion, then it is impossible to ever show anyone the truth through a camera lens.
Believe me, I -understand- how the camera translates visual data. But please point out to me what can be done to make this film more objective? From what I understand of the review, it is what it is-- a look at a slaughterhouse, untainted by a shred of music, commentary, or even the most subtle of cinematic language. It gets people in touch with the process of meat production. Would you be more accepting of the film if it cut out some of the gruesomeness? In such a case, it would be trying to edit the truth. What would -you- have shown, to be more objective?
Though I agree with your points regarding many things, I continue to say that simply because you support the meat industry doesn't mean you should blast this movie.
This set me off because while I fully understand that even the most objective attempts at filmmaking often carry hints of the makers' opinions, many people carry the point too far. It IS possible to be objective to the point that while people may be able to recognize the filmmaker's opinions in the production, the audience is still given enough information to make an informed and independent decision regarding the subject. Such films are not often made. But it isn't a theoretic impossibility.
Posted by: Ari at March 1, 2007 1:51 AM
Wow, this is one huge comments list. My family's had horses my entire life. My sisters and I used to go play with the cows that were kept at the end of my street. Our house/land was a working farm when my grandfather owned it. All of this is just meant to establish that I've been around animals. I know nature is cruel and how horrible even natural deaths are, but having said all of this, the clip made me fucking weep. It's one thing to know what happens but an entirely different thing to watch it. I honestly intend to try to stop eating meat. Having said that, I still don't understand why it's okay to militantly damn everyone who doesn't share that opinion. I'm not saying every vegan/vegetarian on this thread is doing that, but several are. Stop making vegetarians sound like humorless assholes. Also? The meatpacking industry that Upton Sinclair experienced was much much worse then what's been pictured here. Using "The Jungle" to condemn the modern meat packing industry is like using Hammurabi's code to condemn current legislation.
Posted by: Bethany at March 1, 2007 4:45 AM
"Honestly? I'd rather spend my time worrying about feeding the hungry, or housing the homeless, than worry about that. Once we get the human stuff sorted out, then talk to me about animals."
This is nonsense. You can do something right now, today, about the way animals are treated. You can stop eating them.
Revolutionary thought #2: You can care about animals AND humans.
Revolutionary thought #3: I don't believe that you worry about feeding the hungry or housing the homeless either.
"So what are vegan/atarians doing to reduce world starvation, environmental problems, and general malcontent, other than not eating meat?"
Actually, not eating meat is a great way to address environmental problems. Animal agriculture is a HUGE cause of environmental problems. It's the single biggest cause of water pollution, for one thing. It's responsible for the destruction of the rain forests for another.
Posted by: Ben at March 1, 2007 10:23 AM
You know, I've never understood why people get so torn up about this. Some of you eat meat, some of you don't. Why can't we just leave it at that? If I want a burger, I'm going to have a burger, and no tree-hugging vegetarian telling me about how bad it is for me is going to change that. If I want to eat nothing but vegetables, no he-man steak lover can shame me out of it. People wonder why we can't have world peace? We can't even talk about fucking FOOD without getting pissed off!
There are so many other, more interesting and important things to be self-righteous about. Let's deal with those before we all get our knickers in a twist over what people eat.
Posted by: Tae at March 1, 2007 1:59 PM
Well Ben you get a fucking gold star then. You are so much better than 90% of the people on here!
I bet you are SO MUCH FUN to hang out with, you condescending know-it-all...and your farts smell REALLY bad, too! ...I wonder how many starving Ethiopian or Darfur vegetarians there are?
In all honesty, I second Tae's comments 110%...Yes the whole thing is entirely sad, but people will (and should be able to) do what they want to do...
Posted by: FART at March 1, 2007 2:59 PM
I gave up meat two years ago because I do love animals. At first it was hard because guilt-ridden assholes mocked me for it. People get downright mad at you when they notice you don't eat meat.
Examples of such: "Oh, what are you a vegetarian or something?", "Do you think you are better than me because of it or something?" Hey did you know that PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals? Har har har!" and my favorite "Well, I bet you wear leather you hypocrite!!!" (which of course I do not).
But, eliminating meat from my diet also caused me to drop 12 pounds without even trying and so now I can just laugh at their fat asses.
Posted by: Cleveland at March 1, 2007 3:30 PM
"Well Ben you get a fucking gold star then. You are so much better than 90% of the people on here!
I bet you are SO MUCH FUN to hang out with, you condescending know-it-all...and your farts smell REALLY bad, too! ...I wonder how many starving Ethiopian or Darfur vegetarians there are?"
Dude. I don't know if you're feeling guilty or what. But you are one touchy fella.
Posted by: Ben at March 1, 2007 5:07 PM
I challenge any of you here to prove to me that veganism is nothing more than a rich man's endeavor.
I suspect no one could, because I don't think you'd accept any proof that contradicts your clearly slammed-shut mind (on this topic - you may be quite open minded about everything else in the world, but I wouldn't know).
It is true that the rich (or comparatively well-off) often get to make choices that others cannot. A 99 cent cheeseburger from McDonalds may be within someone's budget, but a $3.99 veggie burger to go from the diner down the street may not. However, I think it is disengenuous to suggest that all poor people (or even most poor people) in the U.S. can't afford healthful food. A lot of it is a matter of convenience - who wants to spend 30 minutes preparing a healthful meal when one has been working a 12-hour shift at a shit job? But buying the ingrediants for a healthful meal (even if not using organic ingredients) is often much cheaper than buying a pre-made meal, even a cheap one from a fast food restaurant.
As for the "rich man" arguement - just because rich people can afford to do something doesn't make it bad. I can afford to (and frankly, I would argue anyone with access to a computer and enough leisure time to post on Pajiba can as well) buy organic foods. I am a single woman, with a job and high rent and student loans, but I can choose to do that, instead of spending $20 on drinks on Fridays. It's about choice, and just because a person with money makes it, it doesn't mean it's automatically bad.
Are there people who have absolutely no choice but to eat meat, because they are literally starving? I'm sure there are. But I would argue, especially in the U.S., those people are few and far between.
And yes, I am a vegetarian, and I don't buy/wear leather, and I do make green choices. Sometimes it takes more thought, but more often than not, it's really not that hard. Some people are just too lazy (or too set in their opinions) to realize it.
Posted by: Lollygagger at March 1, 2007 5:07 PM
Some people will look for any reason to denigrate veganism. I've actually had people ask me, "What about bacteria?"
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that veganism is a rich man's game. I don't buy that, but let's say it's true. You know what else is a rich man's game? Philanthropy. Also charity. And volunteerism. Adopting special needs kids. Driving an expensive hybrid car instead of a gas guzzler off the used car lot.
What is your point? It sure sounds like all the arguing is simply to make sure you don't have to change.
Posted by: Ben at March 1, 2007 5:26 PM
And wait a sec! Most of the world eats a (virtually) vegan diet. Not because they have chosen to, surely, but because they cannot afford to eat meat.
Poor people around the globe (but maybe not here in the US) eat little meat.
This "rich man" argument is full of holes.
Posted by: Ben at March 1, 2007 5:31 PM
Ari--Yes, it is impossible to show the "truth" through a camera lens. Watching something on a screen is never the same as seeing it in real life. It may come close, but it's impossible (so far) to duplicate real life on a screen.
Cutting the gruesomeness isn't the point; the point is that people are shocked by the gruesomeness, which shows me that many people are not very thoughtful about what goes into producing food.
I haven't seen the film in its entirety, so I can't say for sure what could have been done to make it more objective; again, increased objectivity is not the point. People don't make movies about things they feel lukewarm about, and it's impossible to tell all important facts and all sides of a story in one 1.5/2/3 hour movie.
I'm not necessarily blasting the movie; I'm stating that the filmmakers had an agenda. That doesn't bother me that they had an agenda, but it should definitely be noted when watching. I'm far more bothered by the reactions of people to the movie than I am by the movie itself.
And sorry that the editing comment came off rude--I think I was battling low blood sugar at the time....
Posted by: leiarenee at March 1, 2007 6:09 PM
Most of the world eats a (virtually) vegan diet. Not because they have chosen to, surely, but because they cannot afford to eat meat.
Really? Do you have statistics to back this up?
Posted by: Daphne at March 1, 2007 7:11 PM
"Most of the world eats a (virtually) vegan diet. Not because they have chosen to, surely, but because they cannot afford to eat meat."
bullshit. prove it.
"I gave up meat two years ago because I do love animals."
you must hate plants then.
Posted by: mothy at March 1, 2007 7:47 PM
"Give me statistics."
"You must hate plants."
What's the point?
It's true. I don't have statistics. Most of the world is poor. Meat costs more than the stuff we feed to animals to make meat. What do you think poor people in India and China and Africa eat?
I must hate plants. Yep! And PETA stands for "People Eating Tasty Animals!" Haw haw! Heard that one?
It's true. I don't have statistics. Most of the world is poor. Meat costs more than the stuff we feed to animals to make meat. What do you think poor people in India and China and Africa eat?
Well, it would appear that leiarenee has answered the question. And Ben, who's touchy now? All I asked was for statistics to back up your claim that most of the world eats a virtually vegan diet. Bottom line - don't make statements you can't back up. The only reason I was asking was that it seems to me, if I was poor and living in a 3rd world country, that it would be easier and faster to kill an animal for food than to wait however long for vegetables and grains to grow and for me to harvest them. Not saying that both groups aren't essential to nutrition, but I'm just trying to imagine if I were starving and had limited access to food, what my priorities would be.
Frankly, I think there have been compelling arguments for both sides - and the most persuasive are those who don't resort to hyperbole to get their point across.
Doesn't mean I'm giving up meat - it's not for everyone, just as eating meat isn't for everyone. Nothing wrong with knowing how food ends up on the plate, though.
Posted by: Daphne at March 2, 2007 12:01 AM
The first of leiarenee's links says that rural Chinese eat 50 grams of meat a day. That's a little more than 1.5 OUNCES. Per day. You think that's a meat-rich diet?
I never said people in China don't eat meat. I said much of the world is virtually vegan. That is, because of their economic circumstances, they eat little meat.
And if you're poor and you slaughter the family pig, you eat for that season. And then what? And then after that, you starve. Do you think this doesn't occur to them?
Posted by: Ben at March 2, 2007 12:10 AM
By the way, leiarenee's 2nd link contains this:
"The poor consume cereals first to keep from going hungry, because cereals are cheap," says Howarth Bouis, an IFPRI research fellow. "The very poor don't have any money left over. But as people's income goes up, that's what they buy: meat and dairy products."
Posted by: Ben at March 2, 2007 12:13 AM
Reply to Lollygagger:
"Are there people who have absolutely no choice but to eat meat, because they are literally starving? I'm sure there are. But I would argue, especially in the U.S., those people are few and far between."
No, these people are not few and far between. Have you ever been to a homeless shelter or soup kitchen? There are millions of homeless people in this country. (Yes, estimates vary...count the homeless how you will but the fact remains that there are far too many for such a wealthy nation http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/How_Many.pdf) Homeless people have no choice, they must eat what is offered or go hungry.
And if you feel the homeless population is still only a smattering of people living in the US please consider low income children who receive breakfast and lunch. According to the federal government, 29 million children are fed each school day. http://dpi.wi.gov/fns/nslp1.html
These meals are not vegetarian or vegan, they are the most balanced meals that can be produced economically. These children eat what is offered; it takes money to be choosy.
Posted by: Clarity at March 2, 2007 12:40 AM
I don't know why this thread has gone on this long when there is one, simple, beautiful solution to this entire issue:
Eat the vegetarians.
Posted by: Manny at March 2, 2007 11:51 AM
i once saw a farm worker pissing on some fresh-picked vegetables. that was more disturbing than this clip. animals were put here for human use. get over it !!! and i'll take your frozen chicken any day over some pissed on veggies !!!
Posted by: Mr. Meatie at March 2, 2007 1:26 PM
Tae,
We focus on and fight about shit like this for the same reason we care about Britney's hair and American Idol and whether Tyra's tits are real or not - because as a nation, we are rich and we are bored and we have nothing better to do. Entertainment is our entitlement. Even the impoverished in this country are rich by world standards. (It's not pleasant to be poor in America - I've been there, and how - but I'd rather be poor in America than anywhere on the African continent. Truly poor people in the world aren't getting fat off fast food, that's for fucking sure.)
If we had to kill and/or grow our own food, I guarantee you this debate - among a thousand others we have every day - would not exist.
Unfortunately, we have plenty of time - and carefully cultivated narcissism - to self-righteously tear apart one another's personal preferences.
God bless America.
Posted by: juliagulia at March 2, 2007 2:12 PM
Ben--50 grams isn't a lot of meat, but it's not vegan.
Congratulations for getting through the fourth paragraph! If you do read the whole article, you'd find this:
"'The importance of cereals in the food basket is declining, even among the poorest of the poor,' says Vyas. 'But the increase in meat consumption is not happening at the same speed in India as in China and other Southeast Asian countries. We are seeing a large increase in consumption of milk and eggs."
This means, NOT vegan. Vegetarian, maybe, but vegan, no.
Posted by: leiarenee at March 2, 2007 4:10 PM
Sheesh. I never said they were vegan. I said they were "virtually" vegan. I thought it was clear. I guess it wasn't. Billions of people on the planet do not eat animal products the same way we do. They eat very little meat or dairy. Poor people "prefer" plant foods (because that's what they can afford). Your link bears this out.
And saying "The importance of cereals in the food basket is declining" or "We are seeing a large increase in consumption of milk and eggs" doesn't say ANYTHING about how much of this stuff people are eating. Cereals could still make up 90% of the diet. As you know, I don't have the numbers, but this quote doesn't suggest anything except that the percentages are changing. If I ate one egg last year, but eat 2 eggs this year, you could say my egg consumption went up by 100%.
Posted by: Ben at March 2, 2007 4:28 PM
I had copied a few quotes to comment on, but Ari beat me to the punch.
Some people seem to think that meat companies invented assembly lines. Kudos to the guy who called for the destruction of all 'factory-type' farms. He doesn't even realize he's on a worse slippery slope than GWB. Why stop at 'factory-type' farms? Should all factories be abolished?
Just one comment- "Many haven't made the conceptual leap that that steak was once cow muscle." I think most people are aware the beef comes from cows, they just don't see the cow when they look at their steak. But yeah, I do definitely agree that education is better than ignorance.
At the end of the day, meat tastes good. And some form of animal protein is necessary in our diet, which is why vegans need to carefully plan their diet (not that this excludes the legitimacy of everyone becoming a vegan.) The obesity argument doesn't hold too much weight, because eating meat doesn't mean you'll automatically eat too much meat (or too much food in general.) That's a different issue.
I don't think eating meat is ethically wrong. At the same time, killing animals doesn't warm my heart either (even if it is done relatively humanely.) Someone made the salient point that while appearing more organic and rural, hunter-gatherers probably delivered more devastating deaths to their prey, but since it happens in a forest it looks better than that factory clip above. So animal cruelty is definitely not a modern phenomenon, nor is it exclusive to 'factory-type' farms.
Ultimately I think it is a personal value choice rather than an ethical one. I applaud greater attention to this issue by filmmakers and posters here, and I also respect the value choice made by each individual. I for one may end up forgoing red meat at one point, although it will be hard for me to give up sushi (seafood being fraught with its own issues, whether caught from the wild or raised in aquatic farms.)
Posted by: Steve Lang at March 2, 2007 4:34 PM
"At the end of the day, meat tastes good. And some form of animal protein is necessary in our diet, which is why vegans need to carefully plan their diet (not that this excludes the legitimacy of everyone becoming a vegan.)"
Nope. Of course animal protein isn't necessary. I've been vegan for 12+ years.
And what do you mean that vegans must carefully plan their diets?
I don't think you know much about veganism.
Posted by: Ben at March 2, 2007 4:38 PM
Eat the vegetarians.
To think that I wrote a 4 paragraph response when the answer was right under my nose. There would be less complaining and less gas, too. Double bonus! First Bacon Claus and now this...someone needs a talk show. I am also given to understand that we taste of chicken, ergo chickens taste of human, right?
Posted by: ScarletKnight at March 2, 2007 6:34 PM
As promised, what I currently have out from Netflix:
But I'm a cheerleader
Enron: The smartest guys in the room
Sophi Scholl: The final days
Bring on the funny...
Posted by: Manny at March 2, 2007 7:00 PM
I gave up meat two years ago next month and never looked back. I won't see this film, because I already know how it's done--that's what did it for me two years ago.
It's really no big deal to not eat meat. I still get enough protein (I'm not vegan). I'm healthy. I eat good tasting foods all the time.
Eh. No big deal.
Posted by: Kathy at March 2, 2007 10:00 PM
BTW, for the smartasses who seem to think being vegetarian is some wealthy endeavor, I'm HARDLY wealthy. Not at all. And I get my hands dirty plenty--my family still eats meat. I just don't. I'm from rural Texas.
The entire world would be better off if we ate more grain crops, anyway. As far as being vegetarian as a function of being wealthy--how about all the people in the world who are vegetarian who are not wealthy? How about the people who are vegetarian because there's no other choice, they can't even get any meat? They certainly aren't wealthy.
I've never ever understood why anyone gives a shit if I choose not to eat meat. It's not hurting anyone. Or anything. That's exactly the point!
LOL!
Posted by: Kathy at March 2, 2007 10:04 PM
This is my business. My company builds these facilities and makes them more efficient. Increasing kills per hour saves our client money. We invent things like a bullet on a string so that it can be pulled out and re-used. It is disgusting. It is disturbing. Somebody has to do it. Be glad it isn't you.
Posted by: Jennifer at March 2, 2007 11:03 PM
"I still get enough protein (I'm not vegan)."
Everyone (well, everyone who still eats animal foods) seems to think that protein is the Holy Grail of good nutrition. Yes, you need to eat adequate protein in order to be healthy. You also need to drink enough water in order to be healthy. And eat enough Vitamin E and enough of all of the other nutrients we need. There's nothing special about protein. Eat a varied diet of whole plant foods and you'll "magically" get enough protein.
Posted by: Ben at March 2, 2007 11:20 PM
Yeah, yeah, I am extremely late to this discussion, but I had to add my half cent to this post. First, people in America eat a shit load more meat than what is actually required for our dietary needs. I want to say we only need like 40 to 60 grams of protein a day. A frozen skinless chicken breast that is 6oz. has about 40 grams of protein in it (I'm not making this up. Go to any calorie counting website, and you can find the nutritional information for chicken breast). Then, take into consideration that people eat meat more than once or twice a day. According to any nutritionist who's worth their weight in Kashi products, a person should eat poultry or beef products only once a day because of their inherent high levels of saturated fat. Essentially, we eat a lot more meat than we should even though we know meat products (except those sea critters) are high in saturated/bad fats. If the demand for meat products wasn't so high on our end, I am sure that precious grain that previous posters were talking about would be given to countries that truly need it (even though there are millions of children and adults in the USA that are malnourished). Simply, eat meat in moderation, no more than once a day, and try to eat lean meats. Simple nutrition people. And to those people who have to eat a burger or bacon every day, I bet your heart hates you. My heart only hates me five or six times a year when I indulge in a good filet mignon and bacon. Moderation people, moderation. Beyond this PSA, go on with your omnivore ways!
Posted by: Gigi Worthington at March 2, 2007 11:48 PM
Here's a news flash for everyone.
Different people have different dietary needs. Different ethnicities have the ability to process and use different kinds of foods, differently. Stick a South African on an Inuit's diet and you'll probably have enormous health problems as a result.
America is a great big melting pot and many of us have systems influenced by genetics from around the world. Heck, I have no clue who my ancestors were beyond an educated guess.
The point is different people have dramatically different dietary needs. There are numerous tests that one can now take to determine what sort of diet is best for you.
This argument strikes me as extremely foolish, therefore, when we have some people claiming vegetarianism is healthier, other people insisting that everyone needs a certain amount of meat, such and such an organization claiming Americans need this percentage of grain products, this percentage of dairy, that of meat--
People-- NONE OF IT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.
As far as to whether meat or vegetable diets are most affordable, it blows my mind that this argument has ommitted regional factors. In some places, meat will be cheaper and more accessible because of environment and traditional. In others, a vegetable diet will be easier to support. In other places, people eat termites. It all depends on WHERE in the world we're talking about.
Everyone needs to stop making these sweeping generalizations about "The rest of the word".
Posted by: Ari at March 3, 2007 3:59 PM
'The Schutes use every part of the goose.'
Posted by: M at March 3, 2007 9:03 PM
Just tacking on something that came up in our household recently: my husband, an omnivore, has been developing healthier eating habits for the last eight months. He's been using an online tracking tool to keep track of what he eats, the protein he gets, carbs, fats, total calories, fiber, sodium, everything.
Well, he kept noticing he was getting dinged on sodium every time he had meat more than once a day. And his fat count was too high. So he started eating leaner cuts of meat. Cut out lunch meats altogether, because they're so high in sodium.
Eventually, he reached the point where he was eating very little meat each day. Maybe six ounces. Some days, none. He just realized this yesterday and told me, with some surprise, that he eats precious little meat nowdays. He used to be of the belief that you had to eat meat to be healthy. However, he's healthier now than he's ever been. He eats more of the meals that I eat, which do sometimes contain dairy products, but never contain meat.
All the lecturing in the world wouldn't have done it for him. All the movies like this wouldn't have done it for him. Seeing his health improve is what finally did it. Whoever said above that Americans eat WAY too much meat is spot on.
Posted by: Kathy at March 4, 2007 8:01 PM
that's why i went veggie again...poor cows...it's just so...awful....anyway...
Posted by: gina at March 5, 2007 12:14 AM
I challenge any of you here to prove to me that veganism is nothing more than a rich man's endeavor.
Are you kidding me? I honestly planned to stay completely out of this discussion because I feel like my dietary choices are mine alone and I don't judge others if they don't pass it on me. But this was just too ridiculous.
I'm a poor college student. Most of my money goes straight to the university. However, you can get a huge bag of brown rice for a few bucks that'll last you weeks. Wholesale tofu, the bulk section of my grocery store and customer cards have all treated me nicely. Fruits and vegetables aren't always cheap, but you learn how to cut coupons and shop at the right places. I do what I can, food-wise, with the means I have and I've never once thought "oh, if only I lived on a diet of dollar-menu burgers, things would be so much easier!"
Oh, and as far as the "leave any vegan on an island with nothing but livestock" comment... please. Just because I could be placed in a scenario in which I'd have to hunt my food, I should eat as though that's actually the case? What? I'm lucky enough to have options and so I will make my choices accordingly.
In any case, I've always wondered about meat-eaters who rail on vegetarians/vegans for absolutely no reason. Do you have a guilt complex you're nursing? I've had so many people start giving me shit when it comes to light that I'm vegan (I don't generally offer up this information because I don't feel like it defines me as a person), even though I very rarely talk about why I am and never make meat-eaters feel bad for their dietary choices.
Then again, I really can't stand vegetarian/vegans who force their opinions on everyone. I've been just as annoyed by self-righteous vegans as I have by judgemental carnivores. It's a two way street. Everyone should just be a little more tolerant.
Posted by: Jacqueline at March 6, 2007 2:14 PM
God, militant vegans are like militant religious folk - get 'em started and they'll never shut up. I avoided this thread after I started a mini-fire in the beginning, but Ben, buddy, you need to scale it back a bit. I fully believe in eating meat in moderation. But the truth is, in moderate amounts, there is nothing unhealthy about eating meat. Yes, the industry itself leaves something to be desired, but the same can be said of the auto industry, or the sneaker industry. Again, people pick their battles. Your flaw is your insistence that people pick yours. Your other flaw being that you're a judgmental, condescending jerk.
By the way, what do YOU do for a living?
Posted by: TK at March 6, 2007 9:06 PM
*note - I totally didn't read the entire comment thread - forgive me if I am doubling up*
I was thinking about TK's comment today and I couldn't help but comment. Frankly, TK's comment was sanctimonious and unnecessary. It's great that you work with homeless people, really it is. My best friend works in low income housing, so I know it's a tremendously hard job. I am but a simple, vegetarian grad student, so please enjoy your moral high ground over me.
However, what does any of that have to do with contemporary factory farming, workplace conditions, or this film at all? It seriously pisses me off when people respond to arguments about animal welfare by shrilly announcing that there are Bigger Problems in this World, as though there's some magical compassion fountain that will somehow dry up if people direct their attentions to less worthy causes. This film hasn't misdirected resources from your very worthy causes, TK. In the words of my nan, settle.
As an aside, I totally don't understand unprovoked hostility towards vegetarians, either. The only thing I'm saying by choosing the vegetarian meal over the meat one in a restaurant is that I simply don't eat meat. I don't judge meat eaters. I'd appreciate it if meat eaters stopped judging me.
Posted by: rach at March 6, 2007 11:45 PM
Absolutly pityful. If I had to kill those poor cows, or anything as far as animals for that matter, I would go vegi. I love animals, they are in my opinion much better than humans in most cases. Humans are the cruelist animals ever on earth. That is a fact, like it or not.
Posted by: Joey at March 7, 2007 7:25 AM
Rach, I never intended to say that there are more worthy causes. Later in the thread (which I understand you didn't read, and frankly, I don't blame you), I made it clear that I wasn't saying that these are more important, simply that those are the causes I've elected to put my efforts into. My original post was (perhaps poorly stated) sarcasm.
Posted by: TK at March 7, 2007 9:10 AM
This would have ended much sooner if the vegetarians had been eaten straight away. I understand they taste great with a light balsamic vinegarette.
Posted by: Manny at March 7, 2007 11:41 AM
Pajiba: I come for the scathing reviews, but I stay for the scathing commentary. Wow.
I've been a vegetarian. I've been a meat-eater. There are pros and cons to each side. Right now, FWIW, I've made the decision to stop eating red meat for various reasons. At this point, all of our food is corrupted in some way whether by inhumane livestock slaughtering or pesticides. Unless you grow it yourself, your food has been treated in some way.
Posted by: kathryn at March 9, 2007 2:12 AM
I believe God put animals on the earth mainly for us to eat. But if they have to torture the animals like that to bring home the bacon then I'm going vegaterian.
Posted by: SOmeone at March 9, 2007 7:38 PM
Thank you lollygagger and elle for each having a heart. shutup TK.
Posted by: elin at March 12, 2007 8:33 PM
Manny. Ah Manny. ROTFLMAO-While snorting so hard I woke up the dog.
Thank you for this:
"Wait, you mean to tell me there aren't hamburger patties grazing in a field somewhere in Wisconsin?
What about the stories my mom told me about the steak fairy that brings porterhouses to good little boys and girls?
Or Bacon Claus, who rides his sleigh pulled by eight tiny lambchops and slides down our chimney's after we're in bed and lovingly leaves packages of thick cut hickory smoked bacon under my pillow?"
And this:
"I don't know why this thread has gone on this long when there is one, simple, beautiful solution to this entire issue:
Eat the vegetarians."
And this:
"This would have ended much sooner if the vegetarians had been eaten straight away. I understand they taste great with a light balsamic vinegarette."
Not because I agree but because you're damn funny.
[Ok, I will now remove my lips from Manny's ass - his wife/girlfriend? might cut a bitch]
Posted by: rose no thorns at March 20, 2007 2:13 AM
wee are the most cognitively advanced species hereby placing us at the top of the food chain. Yes, we are smart enough to genetically engineer another species (the cow), to process them, and use them to fuel ourselves. The are our creation. the cow is has no natural habitat.
regardless, i could not live with taking the risk that my consumption, my fuel, is off another cognitive being that is able to feel suffering and pain. why put something through pain? making something feel horrible inhumane things, when they do not have to?
to contend cows are essentially beyond our definition of retarded and if freed they would not even know what to do. in fact, the eradication of the long horn cattle (what a cow used to be) were whipped out in the united states (brought here by the Spanish) by barbed wire.. barbed wire sat in their way and instead of pushing through the barbed wire they froze to death. cows are very very stupid and don't know the difference between pain and pleasure.
to contend once more. is it worth the risk? yes they are stupid but why risk making something suffer when you can survive, no thrive with more health by not taking that risk. by not consuming the animal.
meat gives you longer lasting energy, but it also has addictive properties that make you feel like shit when you are not eating meat.
eating vegetables only requires you to eat more frequently or else you lose energy, yet you feel light, and more clear.
lastly, this post is bias. i love meat, but i am a vegan.
Posted by: nicholas at March 21, 2007 3:03 AM
I'm by far not a rights-activist. I've laughed at the insane antics of PETA members. I absolutely believe in free will and live and let be. I once was incurably sad for weeks because a car I planned to purchased could not come with leather seats. I order chicken at every restaurant I go to. I grew up in a very food-centered family and surely do not lead a very health-conscious lifestyle.
Though, I have not eaten a morsel of animal meat in exactly two weeks. I happened upon a video, that in much the same way as the documentary described above, simply showed how the animals we eat are killed and processed. Anyone who has not seen the video has not the faintest notion of this issue nor do they deserve room for an opinion until they have seen it.
The video changed the essence of who I am and my naive understanding of how I thought the world worked. Never in my lifetime would I have ever seen myself as a vegetarian, or an animal rights activist-and I am still neither of those things. What I am, though, is someone who will never look at a hamburger, pork shop, fur coat, or crash test rating the same again.
Go watch the video at www.isawearthlings.com/17minutes.html and see if you can still say meat is yum.
Posted by: Me at March 27, 2007 2:55 PM
...And veggies are grown in cow shit.
Get over yourselves, already.
You know why this "soulless, robotic" method of food production has overtaken the whole "family farm"/organic model? Because the old way was backbreaking, ruinously expensive, life-shortening, and perforated with filth and disease. The family farm model, for all it's bobo pretensions, couldn't begin to feed the world's population, or even a tenth of the world's current population.
And most of the people in the world can't afford the luxury of skipping an entire food group just because Bambi made them cry.
The living feed on the dying. That's an inescapable law of nature... even if you're some Bobo high-rise vegetarian sucking down vitamin tablets to compensate for your crappy dietary habits. The only reason those pills and supplements even exist is because civilization has reached a point where it produces enough REAL food that it has time to waste pandering to poseurs. Most of those supplements are animal products anyways.
You think that these food factories are horrid? Ever seen how NATURE handles food preparation? It invariably involves one animal screaming in agony while a dozen others gnaw on its still-pulsing entrails. Every DAY is a zombie horror flick for your average herbivore, and nobody ever rolls the credits.
Those assembly-line animals, on the other hand, spent their entire lives well-fed, protected from disease and injury, and their final moment was a single bright flash of light behind their eyes. Take your pick, you sensitive souls.
Posted by: RHJunior at March 27, 2007 7:26 PM
RHJunior,
Your last paragraph pretty much sums up that you have no idea of the issue. Next time, do a little research instead of justifying a need to be argumentative.
Posted by: Me at April 5, 2007 4:52 PM
I dunno, your response pretty well confirms I scored a direct bulls-eye.
I didn't watch the clip, but I doubt I needed to. I just phoned my husband and told him to put the chicken back into the freezer.